Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[AyChihuahua]

I just don't understand how professional writers and show runners don't understand that in these fantastical type genre shows, you need something grounded to go along with people dressing up in costumes. It makes the ridiculous believable. I can deal with shape shifting Dracula fanboys on Supernatural because of the very real brotherly bond between Sam and Dean. 

Total aside, the shapeshifting Dracula fanboy on SPN was one of my all-time favorite characters on my all-time favorite episode.  I fucking LOVED him.  He was funny and scary and interesting and really, really sad.  The line about his father trying to kill him with a shovel...Jesus.

[calliope1975]

Total aside, the shapeshifting Dracula fanboy on SPN was one of my all-time favorite characters on my all-time favorite episode.  I fucking LOVED him.  He was funny and scary and interesting and really, really sad.  The line about his father trying to kill him with a shovel...Jesus.

 

Because they made him a real person. With just a few lines, he had depth and you felt for him. With just a few lines, they made Baby Mama into a cartoonish, caricature of a person. That's not how a real person would act, and that's why I have no use for her.

[dtissagirl]

I really think Arrow has the worst case of Writers Writing that I've ever seen. It's cray. Writing for plot, writing for gotchas, writing for fandom wank, writing backwards from pre-established end points, writing because comics, writing for Sweeps... all at the same time on top of each other. Everything but letting the characters guide the story. Except that would be making the writing invisible, and I don't think Guggenheim can do that.

Edited December 4, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Coop33]

I really think Arrow has the worst case of Writers Writing that I've ever seen. It's cray. Writing for plot, writing for gotchas, writing for fandom wank, writing backwards from pre-established end points, writing because comics, writing for Sweeps... all at the same time on top of each other. Everything but letting the characters guide the story. Except that would be making the writing invisible, and I don't think Guggenheim can do that.

 

One of the things I've found so frustrating with this writing team is just trying to understand how people whose job it is to write this show, and who probably spend more time thinking about it than we do still come up with these obviously horrible, out of character, contrived plots. This explains everything.

[theacostov]

BM being unsympathetic with her ultimatum is part of the writers get out of jail free card. If she is reasonable in her ultimatums then it doesn't provide the out the writers need.

As dumb as this writing is, I think it was actually thought out - which is sad.

But because BM is unsympathetic I find Oliver deciding to lie to Felicity instead of lying to BM worse? If they had done what quarks said then it would have made all parties sympathetic.

[dtissagirl]

BM being unsympathetic with her ultimatum is part of the writers get out of jail free card. If she is reasonable in her ultimatums then it doesn't provide the out the writers need.

As dumb as this writing is, I think it was actually thought out - which is sad.

 

The only way they made her unreasonable on purpose is if whenever Oliver comes clean, there's a whole custody battle for William, because BM's requests are ridiculous, but Oliver doesn't seem to be aware of it. So when he tells, I don't know, Felicity, or Diggle, or his favorite barista, someone is gonna need to tell him "dude. Lawyer up". And then that's the story.

[looptab]

I wrote this in the episode thread already, but it's worth repeating: the show sees BM's position as reasonable.

Edited December 5, 2015 by looptab

[foreverevolving]

Honestly all they had to do to save this horse shit was have Oliver have somewhat guilty look on his face in that final scene.

so in a way it is a tie of stupid decision between the writers and Stephen.

[apinknightmare]

Honestly all they had to do to save this horse shit was have Oliver have somewhat guilty look on his face in that final scene.

so in a way it is a tie of stupid decision between the writers and Stephen.

If we're supposed to believe Oliver didn't tell her because he was worried about Barry's revelation that he and Felicity broke up in the first timeline (in addition to wanting to honor BM's ridiculous conditions), the looks makes sense to me.

[Tazmania]

Felicity: Ok, first off, Oliver, we're fighting an immortal here. Maybe deal with your DNA issues later. Second, Oliver, can we all remember what happened when you didn't tell Thea the truth? When you didn't tell me and John the truth? I thought you were breaking this habit. Look, clearly I'm willing to put up with a lot from you! You've killed people! You go WEEKS without getting on the salmon ladder without your shirt on! You keep talking to Malcolm and you've apparently shown him a secret dark entrance to our nice big Arrow Cave! AND you haven't given me a code name yet! What I'm saying is, although yes, I know I told you just a couple of episodes ago that we're good and solid and all that, we're walking a fine line here and if I find out something big, it's OVER and you'll have to hire Cisco or Curtis to do your computer stuff. I recommend Curtis. He already has problems remembering that he's married when you're around. On second thought, bring in Cisco. I'll head over to Team Flash and Caitlin and I can do more bonding and maybe have a girl on girl scene if Flash thinks ratings are falling.

....ok, maybe Felicity wouldn't actually have said all that much.

A lot will be forgiven if either of the shows will go for some girl on girl action between Caitlin and Felicity.

PS: I think Oliver not getting on salmon ladder in all his shirtless glory is a valid Felicity complaint. She would voice that.

[kismet]

But because BM is unsympathetic I find Oliver deciding to lie to Felicity instead of lying to BM worse? If they had done what quarks said then it would have made all parties sympathetic.

Quarks writes a better scenario. Obviously most of us here probably could have written a better story. I think if you read through the threads the ideas are all there.

But BM is their scapegoat. And once the fog clears most of the hate will be directed to her. They wanted to make OQ be forced to lie to FS and BMs ridiculous request did just that. And its really easy to overturn. Why did he lie, BM forced him to. He really wanted to tell FS, but the horrible BM would take the opportunity to meet his son away. And yes he could force legal stuff but that puts him in the crosshairs of bad people & uproots the childs well being. A lie is better than jeopardizing a child's well being.

If you put too much logic or sympathy to her ultimatums then OQ becomes someone who just chose to lie. In this scenario they set up OQ was forced to lie otherwise he couldn't be part of his child's life and that is something that FS probably wouldn't forgive either. So it makes BM look unsympathetic but they don't care or need her to be sympathetic for their plan to work.

Also they can fix her character later if they choose to keep BM around. Her ultimatum was in some way a test to make sure OQ did really care this time. Its a token he is giving her. She probably feels like he used her first time around and by making him put William first over other stuff it was her way of testing him. It's a shitty way to do it, but hey the girl chose to hide the truth from father & son for 9 or so years that is already an indication of her character or at least er relationship with truth & secret keeping.

Edited December 5, 2015 by kismet

[AyChihuahua]

 

But BM is their scapegoat. And once the fog clears most of the hate will be directed to her. They wanted to make OQ be forced to lie to FS and BMs ridiculous request did just that. And its really easy to overturn. Why did he lie, BM forced him to. He really wanted to tell FS, but the horrible BM would take the opportunity to meet his son away. And yes he could force legal stuff but that puts him in the crosshairs of bad people & uproots the childs well being. A lie is better than jeopardizing a child's well being.

Again, again, again, he does not have to lie TO FELICITY.  He is not being FORCED to lie TO FELICITY.  I'm fine with everyone else being kept out of it right now...Oliver's not planning to marry anyone else.  He doesn't have to force legal stuff.  He just has to TELL FELICITY THE TRUTH.  No one else.  It's pathetic and manipulative.

[slayer2]

Knowing these fuckhead writers the death is probably Dig or Felicity. They are dumb enough to have Oliver regress and give in to stupid demands of BM I definitely won't put it past them to kill off one of the most popular Non Oliver Characters

 

I can almost guarantee you that it won't be Felicity. I would love it if it was because I don't like her but I also wouldn't love it because no leading female character should be fridged for more opportunity at Oliver's box of pain but I can pretty much guarantee you that EBR ain't going anywhere. Diggle on the other hand.....there was some website that did an in-depth whatever to vet people's chances and Thea was the most likely candidate with Diggle following close behind. Granted I reaaaaaally don't want Thea to die, frankly I don't want anyone to die because then it martyrs them, or it martyrs them for 5mins until MG moves along with the plot while they rot beside a dumpster. I wish they could take a cue from Empire and just write good stories. No need to kill someone every 5mins, there's always the option of simply writing them off the show. But I guess they only save that for the men.

Edited December 5, 2015 by slayer2

[calliope1975]

Honestly all they had to do to save this horse shit was have Oliver have somewhat guilty look on his face in that final scene.

so in a way it is a tie of stupid decision between the writers and Stephen.

 

This is still one of my main problems with the entire episode. I needed something there to make me sympathize with Oliver, and I got nothing. Yeah, I still would have hated this entire story line, but I might have been more receptive to the outcome. As is, I hope Felicity dumps him, takes over the team, and becomes more of a superhero than she already is. I'm going to need major, major groveling, and I'm skeptical that's going to happen.

 

I also agree that a few dialogue tweaks could also have made all this more palatable, but I now have enough experience with MG's writing that I think what we're getting is his best and his best is below subpar. What is more disappointing is GB already went through this, in part, with that horrible Everwood baby story line. He should know better.

[wonderwall]

Again, again, again, he does not have to lie TO FELICITY.  He is not being FORCED to lie TO FELICITY.  I'm fine with everyone else being kept out of it right now...Oliver's not planning to marry anyone else.  He doesn't have to force legal stuff.  He just has to TELL FELICITY THE TRUTH.  No one else.  It's pathetic and manipulative.

 

If Barry told Oliver that Felicity breaks up with him because he has a son (and he was right about everything else he told Oliver so why should Oliver doubt Barry?), I can see why he'd be deathly afraid to tell her because he's that desperate to be with her. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying I understand why Oliver lied to Felicity. He doesn't want to break up with her because he needs her in his life and he likes who he is when he's with her. I think in that moment Oliver was selfish... And I can see why considering just how insanely desperate he is to keep Felicity in his life. 

 

The writing for this episode was terrible. But I do understand Oliver's motivations.

[wonderwall]

This is still one of my main problems with the entire episode. I needed something there to make me sympathize with Oliver, and I got nothing.

 

I guess the way I see it is, if BM wasn't such a bitch, Oliver would've told Felicity without a doubt. But BM was a bitch, and that's where Oliver floundered and started panicking. A panicked/desperate/emotionally compromised Oliver isn't an Oliver that makes the best decisions (look at all of his decisions in S3). 

[AyChihuahua]

If Barry told Oliver that Felicity breaks up with him because he has a son (and he was right about everything else he told Oliver so why should Oliver doubt Barry?), I can see why he'd be deathly afraid to tell her because he's that desperate to be with her. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying I understand why Oliver lied to Felicity. He doesn't want to break up with her because he needs her in his life and he likes who he is when he's with her. I think in that moment Oliver was selfish... And I can see why considering just how insanely desperate he is to keep Felicity in his life. 

 

The writing for this episode was terrible. But I do understand Oliver's motivations.

Yes, that is exactly it.  He is 100% lying to her because he doesn't want her to dump him.  In other words, he is selectively withholding highly relevant information in order to control Felicity's behavior.  I.e., he is emotionally manipulating her.  It's exactly the same as one person not telling the other he has an STD, or that he is losing their house bc of failure to pay the mortgage, or that he isn't actually divorced, so much as separated.  And it's not as if the problem is going away, because it's a KID.

I guess the way I see it is, if BM wasn't such a bitch, Oliver would've told Felicity without a doubt. But BM was a bitch, and that's where Oliver floundered and started panicking. A panicked/desperate/emotionally compromised Oliver isn't an Oliver that makes the best decisions (look at all of his decisions in S3). 

Again, totally agreed.  He is his S3 (or to me his Ollie self) again.  For him as a character, he's never moving forward in a meaningful way and having any progress actually stick.  He's a static character.  For the show as a whole, it's S3 all over again, and S3 SUCKED.  Why are they doing all this bullshit AGAIN.  No one liked it the first time.  No one liked seeing O/F at odds, and Felicity weepy, and Oliver stupid.  But it doesn't matter, they're still doing it all over again, and making Oliver look, yet again, stupid and scummy.  Superheroes are really not supposed to be stupid and scummy, he was moving away from being stupid and scummy, but now they are back to undermining the entire thesis of the show.

[looptab]

I don't know, he lied in the first timeline, too. I think he felt he had to accept and honor BM's conditions. Although, in TL1, Felicity found out so they would have eventually cleared the air, this time it'll be messier. But the dumb thing (ok, one of many) is that he accepted the request in the first place, in the first TL.

[apinknightmare]

I don't know, he lied in the first timeline, too. I think he felt he had to accept and honor BM's conditions. Although, in TL1, Felicity found out so they would have eventually cleared the air, this time it'll be messier. But the dumb thing (ok, one of many) is that he accepted the request in the first place, in the first TL.

 

 

Did he though? We never got to see what happened in the first timeline. I wonder if anything went differently there. 

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, he did. Felicity already knew about the DNA test, but Oliver tried to tell her he had a lead on DD that he asked Barry to check. I understand his world had just been turned around, but that lie was REALLY REALLY SHITTY.

[looptab]

Did he though? We never got to see what happened in the first timeline. I wonder if anything went differently there. 

I was dubious about it too, at first. They left it in the air, and at first you'd think he got out without giving an answer, to think about it. But then, why would he lie to Felicity, and then keep evading the matter when she's showing him the freaking DNA results? So I think he did.

Edited December 5, 2015 by looptab

[apinknightmare]

I was dubious about it too, at first. They left it in the air, and at first you'd think he got out without giving an answer, to think about it. But then, why would he lie to Felicity, and then keep evading the matter when she's showing him the freaking DNA results? So I think he did.

 

Yeah, I guess the "It's complicated," indicates that he did. I'm just not sure why he doubled down on the lying when it was clear Felicity knew since that should've been a relief and he could've explained to her why it needed to stay a secret. But then again, we are dealing with a moron. 

[wonderwall]

Yes, that is exactly it.  He is 100% lying to her because he doesn't want her to dump him.  In other words, he is selectively withholding highly relevant information in order to control Felicity's behavior.  I.e., he is emotionally manipulating her.  It's exactly the same as one person not telling the other he has an STD, or that he is losing their house bc of failure to pay the mortgage, or that he isn't actually divorced, so much as separated.  And it's not as if the problem is going away, because it's a KID.

Again, totally agreed.  He is his S3 (or to me his Ollie self) again.  For him as a character, he's never moving forward in a meaningful way and having any progress actually stick.  He's a static character.  For the show as a whole, it's S3 all over again, and S3 SUCKED.  Why are they doing all this bullshit AGAIN.  No one liked it the first time.  No one liked seeing O/F at odds, and Felicity weepy, and Oliver stupid.  But it doesn't matter, they're still doing it all over again, and making Oliver look, yet again, stupid and scummy.  Superheroes are really not supposed to be stupid and scummy, he was moving away from being stupid and scummy, but now they are back to undermining the entire thesis of the show.

 

You know, I guess for me, I just don't have enough info to actually get that Oliver's planning on keeping this secret forever. I wouldn't say that keeping a kid a secret is the same as keeping an STD a secret... Because you know... STDs =/= Kids. I'm pretty sure if Oliver had an STD he'd tell Felicity lol. It's not JUST that Oliver wants to keep this from Felicity because he's afraid of losing her, it's also because he doesn't want to risk losing any access to the kid. Now I know that legally, Oliver would have claim, but do you think he wants to bring lawyers into this mess while he's running a campaign? Do you think he wants to bring a kid into the spotlight? I think that would've been kind of tasteless for Oliver to make the kid go through that. And to be honest, I stress again, when Oliver is desperate/emotions are running high, he isn't very smart. I doubt he thought about keeping this a secret from BM (the woman with all the power here and stripped Oliver of his and Felicity's agency). 

 

To me, I don't think Oliver learned his lesson from S3. He got away with lying to Thea, he got away with lying to Felicity, and in the end he got away with lying to Diggle (which he didn't even have to worry about for 6 months when he was away with Felicity). I don't think Oliver learned about keeping secrets. I wouldn't say Oliver is a static character though. I think he's grown a lot in the past 4 years. But I agree that he has been static in the secret keeping department. I suppose I'm willing a chance to see him grow in this department this season (and I really hope he does learn from his ridiculous mistakes). If he does it again next season, then yeah... WTF. But I think this season they might give Oliver an honest chance to learn about not keeping secrets unlike S3 where he got away with everything. 

Yeah, I guess the "It's complicated," indicates that he did. I'm just not sure why he doubled down on the lying when it was clear Felicity knew since that should've been a relief and he could've explained to her why it needed to stay a secret. But then again, we are dealing with a moron. 

 

He really is a moron tbh.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Now I know that legally, Oliver would have claim, but do you think he wants to bring lawyers into this mess while he's running a campaign? Do you think he wants to bring a kid into the spotlight?

I've said this a bunch of times, but no.  I am fine with leaving lawyers out of it, especially while DD is gunning for him.  But telling FELICITY does not equal telling the world at large, because Felicity would take that secret to her grave.

 

And I didn't say the kid is an STD, I said that it's similarly withholding highly relevant information to control your significant other's behavior.  Which is the definition of emotional manipulation.

[wonderwall]

I've said this a bunch of times, but no.  I am fine with leaving lawyers out of it, especially while DD is gunning for him.  But telling FELICITY does not equal telling the world at large, because Felicity would take that secret to her grave.

 

And I didn't say the kid is an STD, I said that it's similarly withholding highly relevant information to control your significant other's behavior.  Which is the definition of emotional manipulation.

 

And I stress again, that Oliver when under duress/emotionally compromised, makes terrible decisions which is probably why he didn't even think of telling Felicity and keeping that a secret from BM who has all the power in this situation.

 

And tbh I don't think this conversation is going anywhere :p I guess in the end, I'm willing to see where the writers take this arc and give Oliver a chance before I think of him as scum of the earth which requires me to understand where he's coming from, which I do. I don't agree with it, but I get it. In the end I see a desperate man scrambling to keep everything in his life together which is making him make terrible decisions (because he didn't think things through), and you see him as being emotionally manipulative which is probably why we'll never really reach to a conclusion. In the end they may mean the same thing, but the wording of it shows that I'm willing to give Oliver a chance to get out of the hole he dug himself in. I reserve the right to change my mind later if Oliver is continually being an ass, but for now, I'm not done with him because I still see potential. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by wonderwall

[EmeraldArcher]

I know everyone around here loves the Oliver/Barry relationship. I do as well. But, I cringed at that hug. Oliver clearly declined Barry's hug, so Barry basically told Oliver that he didn't have a choice about whether or not to hug Barry because his super speed allowed him to force the hug on Olliver. Ugh.

Consent is always important. Just because Barry is adorable doesn't make that moment harmless. Take the adorable out of it, and the scenario is the same: Person 1 makes an overture. Person 2 declines. Person 1 demands acquiescence because he/she has the ability to overpower Person 2.

[kismet]

This is still one of my main problems with the entire episode. I needed something there to make me sympathize with Oliver, and I got nothing. Yeah, I still would have hated this entire story line, but I might have been more receptive to the outcome. As is, I hope Felicity dumps him, takes over the team, and becomes more of a superhero than she already is. I'm going to need major, major groveling, and I'm skeptical that's going to happen.

 

I also agree that a few dialogue tweaks could also have made all this more palatable, but I now have enough experience with MG's writing that I think what we're getting is his best and his best is below subpar. What is more disappointing is GB already went through this, in part, with that horrible Everwood baby story line. He should know better.

Yes, I agree the show needed something in show to provide that sympathetic or empathetic arc. I had to do a lot of out of show thinking to get me to a place where I can understand his motivations and some of his mindset. But in show was an absolute let down for the first time in the series for me regarding sympathy for OQ.

[statsgirl]

  In other words, he is selectively withholding highly relevant information in order to control Felicity's behavior.  I.e., he is emotionally manipulating her. 

I was taken aback by the term "emotional manipulation", and then realized that I don't think it is emotional manipulation when he's the one who is emotional.  He's manipulating her, yes, but I hope it's because he's so scared of losing her. (We'll have to wait for the writers to tell us if that's right or not.)  it's stupid and wrong, of course, but it's also like a child so afraid of losing something vital and not knowing what to do that he does what he shouldn't..

 

 

Consent is always important. Just because Barry is adorable doesn't make that moment harmless. Take the adorable out of it, and the scenario is the same: Person 1 makes an overture. Person 2 declines. Person 1 demands acquiescence because he/she has the ability to overpower Person 2.

That is an excellent point, and very true.

 

No one should have to accept any overture, physical or otherwise, if they don't want it.

[AyChihuahua]

I was taken aback by the term "emotional manipulation", and then realized that I don't think it is emotional manipulation when he's the one who is emotional.  He's manipulating her, yes, but I hope it's because he's so scared of losing her. (We'll have to wait for the writers to tell us if that's right or not.)  it's stupid and wrong, of course, but it's also like a child so afraid of losing something vital and not knowing what to do that he does what he shouldn't.

I mean, he's 30.

[wonderwall]

I mean, he's 30.

He's also a man that's been put through a lot of psychological/emotional trauma over the past 9 years of his life. I mean Oliver is messed up. No denying that. But I can see why he'd behave like a child (not knowing what to do and does what he shouldn't) when he's on the verge of losing one of the very few good things in his life forever. 

[AyChihuahua]

I'm going to sign off this board for awhile.  I can't deal with the excuses being made for Oliver, and that will continue to be made for him while he lies to Felicity again and again, while living off her money, in their home.  He's going to

propose a lifetime commitment

with a woman who doesn't know he has a child, he's going to continue the lie every day, he's going to feel bad for himself about being in this tough spot when all he has to do is tell her because BM would never know, he's going to lie more while he sees the kid (and even if he doesn't visit the kid, he'll still be continuing the original lie every day), then when she dumps him and he feels bad people will feel bad for him and his sad puppy face.  Then Felicity will forgive him, even though she's seen the movie a thousand times already, they'll get back together, everyone will forget all this, and then it will happen again in S5.  

[statsgirl]

AyChihuahua, I understand. Unfortunately we'll have to wait till probably March to get the full picture.

 

I know people in real life who are emotionally manipulative.  In cold blood and full knowledge of what they're doing, they manipulate other people to get the effect they desire.  (One young adult, who when his parents wanted to go to family therapy with him, said "you don't want to know the things I'm hiding."  They freaked out, scared he had been sexually abused, and pulled back.  No evidence ever of any abuse but he got what he wanted, which is to continue to emotionally abuse his parents with impunity.)

 

I think people who emotionally manipulate to get what they want irrespective of the hurt they cause others are scum.  I don't see Oliver in that category.

[EmeraldArcher]

I think emotional manipulation is more complex than someone heartless making calculated insinuations, though. Seemingly otherwise decent people can resort to emotional manipulation out of desperation when they stand to lose something or someone they value. By definition, Oliver's withholding information from Felicity because he was under the impression she'd break up with him is absolutely manipulation. And, it was absolutely calculated, too: he'd had the entire trip home from CC to decide whether or not to tell, so that when Felicity gave that incredibly sweet and supportive teammates speech, his response had already been decided. It wasn't the same as moments after he'd found out and he deserved some time to process the revelation about William, BM, and his own mother's heartbreaking betrayal; it was after the lengthy trip home. Just because we recognize Felicity as being the best thing that ever happened to Oliver, we can't try to justify his lying so that she won't leave him.

However, we can also recognize that the moment he became emotionally manipulative, he behaved stupidly and unfairly because he was desperate and self-delusional that he was making the right choice. I think that imperfect humans behave imperfectly, and that he can still be redeemed if he owns up to his lie and motivations.

Personally, my problem with this situation isn't that I think Oliver will forever be an irredeemable liar. It's that I can't buy into a hero who, after 4 years, is still behaving in such stupid and selfish ways. I'm clueless as to why undermining Oliver's credibility as a hero is the writers' go-to move.

ETA: My interpretation of that last scene is that he didn't tell her because of Barry's description of their fight in the original timeline. Others might believe it was only because of BM's stupid condition that he not tell anyone. I think his motivation is still unclear, so my post probably only applies to him avoiding a breakup.

Edited December 6, 2015 by EmeraldArcher

[kismet]

I don't see OQ as emotionally manipulative either. Emotionally stunted. Guided by dumb decisions. Either overthinking or underthinking situations. Challenging relationship material both pre & post island for a whole boatload of reasons.

 

But emotionally manipulative that's a whole other category of person. MM is emotionally manipulative. But not OQ.

[statsgirl]

I'd say Moira is emotionally manipulative too, for example when she told Felicity that if she [Felicity] told Oliver about Thea's paternity, he would reject her too as the bringer of the bad news,  hitting Felicity where she is most vulnerable in her abandonment issues.

 

Even Robert, for telling Oliver to right his wrongs and then shooting himself in the head in front of his son.

 By definition, Oliver's withholding information from Felicity because he was under the impression she'd break up with him is absolutely manipulation.

I agree that it was manipulation.  I don't think it was emotional manipulation though because he didn't manipulate her emotions, he just didn't give her the information.

 

But I'm someone who thinks "time in"s are more effective than "time out"s.

[EmeraldArcher]

I don't see OQ as emotionally manipulative either. Emotionally stunted. Guided by dumb decisions. Either overthinking or underthinking situations. Challenging relationship material both pre & post island for a whole boatload of reasons.

 

But emotionally manipulative that's a whole other category of person. MM is emotionally manipulative. But not OQ.

I agree, but only because I don't think that pointing out that he emotionally manipulated Felicity in one scene means that it is a defining characteristic. MM is definitely emotionally manipulative because he frequently uses emotional manipulation as a tool or weapon. My point about Oliver was that this one case* of emotional manipulation does not make it who he is in his bones.**

*I.e., lying while snuggling in relief and maybe to reassure her that there was nothing to be concerned about was manipulation because he didn't provide the opportunity for her to have an authentic reaction to his news.

** ;-)

[kismet]

I agree, but only because I don't think that pointing out that he emotionally manipulated Felicity in one scene means that it is a defining characteristic. MM is definitely emotionally manipulative because he frequently uses emotional manipulation as a tool or weapon. My point about Oliver was that this one case* of emotional manipulation does not make it who he is in his bones.**

*I.e., lying while snuggling in relief and maybe to reassure her that there was nothing to be concerned about was manipulation because he didn't provide the opportunity for her to have an authentic reaction to his news.

** ;-)

The cuddle really threw me over the edge. Seriously, that was such a jerky thing to do.

 

I also don't think withholding information during said cuddle is manipulating her emotions though. There is the potential if the spoilers are correct that he may in the near future manipulate her emotions by withholding information. But keeping her from knowing about BM & William for a temporary period is not manipulation of anything as it stands right now. It's a shitty thing to do. It's certainly is not winning any relationship awards. However, I've kept things from people I love while I waited for things to settle down. It's when the lies start to build on the lies that the manipulation begins. We may get there at some point during the BM arc, in fact I would bet on it with these writers. But we are not there yet.

[DameLoli]

Where Samatha's (BM) demands really that unreasonable? I mean, she doesn't know the new Oliver, she certainly doesn't know the girl he is currently with, so I can totally see why she wouldn't want to introduce her son to people that could be in his life for a brief period of times depending on circumstances. What she knew of Oliver wasn't glorious, his portrayal in public wasn't glorious either after the island; he still had the public personna of a party womanizer, irresponsible where is family was often at the center of attacks, terrorist plots and death.

 

I know my mom always waited a while before introducing a boyfriend and she asked the some of my father. Could Oliver eventually tell Felicity, sure, but she has no part, right now in that boy's life or that of his mother.

[apinknightmare]

Where Samatha's (BM) demands really that unreasonable? I mean, she doesn't know the new Oliver, she certainly doesn't know the girl he is currently with, so I can totally see why she wouldn't want to introduce her son to people that could be in his life for a brief period of times depending on circumstances. What she knew of Oliver wasn't glorious, his portrayal in public wasn't glorious either after the island; he still had the public personna of a party womanizer, irresponsible where is family was often at the center of attacks, terrorist plots and death.

 

Yes, they were unreasonable. 

 

A reasonable situation would go something like this: "Oliver, I know that you would like to spend time with and get to know your son, but the person that I knew ten years ago wasn't a very good influence. I'd like to spend some time with you and get to know you better before I allow you that. You may mention this to your significant other and very close family members, but I'd prefer if you kept it quiet until we've worked out whether you'd like to have continued involvement in our son's life. I don't want him spending time with your girlfriend until I get to know her and feel comfortable around her, because I don't want William getting attached to people who might not be in his life long-term. Once we work out the kinks, we'll decide how to move forward." 

 

Or, "I'm incredibly uncomfortable with the way your family is continually targeted, and am worried about what would happen if someone found out the man running for mayor has a son considering what's happened to the previous candidates. I'll let you meet him today, but could we hold of any other discussions until things are more settled and I'm sure he'd be safe?" 

 

Easy peasy. Believably concerned mother looking out for the best interests of her son. Instead we got a woman who listed a shitload of reasons why she didn't want Oliver around her kid, then decided he could be around her kid as long as he agreed not to tell anyone ever, including the child. Completely and utterly unreasonable and ridiculous. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Carrie Ann]

Sure, but Oliver didn't ask for William to meet Felicity. He just wants to tell Felicity that William exists and is his son. Those are two very different things.

 

ETA: Or what apinknightmare said.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[kismet]

Where Samatha's (BM) demands really that unreasonable? I mean, she doesn't know the new Oliver, she certainly doesn't know the girl he is currently with, so I can totally see why she wouldn't want to introduce her son to people that could be in his life for a brief period of times depending on circumstances. What she knew of Oliver wasn't glorious, his portrayal in public wasn't glorious either after the island; he still had the public personna of a party womanizer, irresponsible where is family was often at the center of attacks, terrorist plots and death.

 

I know my mom always waited a while before introducing a boyfriend and she asked the some of my father. Could Oliver eventually tell Felicity, sure, but she has no part, right now in that boy's life or that of his mother.

I don't think her demands were unreasonable when I consider it after the episode. But the writing was horrible in how it portrayed her. She could have said something like right now, let's just keep this between me & you while we see how it goes. However, she made it seem like it was a forever & ever thing and then I think it becomes unreasonable. No one should be forced to choose between his child & his partner. I also think that perhaps rather than saying Felicity oh that's a nice name, she could have said something like I hope to meet her someday.

 

It wasn't the request, it was how she said it. It was how she acted it. It made it seem more unreasonable and coming from a place of resentment of which some was of her doing. But I'm inclined to believe that comes from the writing and the emotions as opposed to the actual demands itself.

[EmeraldArcher]

. Could Oliver eventually tell Felicity, sure, but she has no part, right now in that boy's life or that of his mother.

True, but Felicity does have a part to play in Oliver's life, and Samantha's demands again isolate Oliver from decision-making when it comes to his role in their son's life.

Samantha piled horrible things on Oliver--she'd lied to him about the miscarriage, his own mother betrayed him by paying Samantha to lie, she reminded him of all the people he'd lost, and she threw his past in his face as the reason he'd missed out on his son's life. So, even if there wasn't a role for Felicity in their lives, she was desperately needed to support Oliver and help him through this incredibly traumatic experience.

And, yes, Samantha's demands were completely unreasonable and horrible. Sure, Ollie was a douche, but Samantha willingly had unprotected sex with him. No, she doesn't know him now, but that's because she lied to him and left town, and she never tried to reach out, even though she listed reasons why she knew he'd changed--e.g., his mayoral run. So, she basically contradicted herself when trying to justify why she never told him the truth.

Samantha can't hold anything against Oliver because she intentionally robbed him of his agency and then made him feel guilty about her crime against him! She completed his victimization by isolating him from his support system.

[kismet]

Yes, they were unreasonable. 

 

A reasonable situation would go something like this: "Oliver, I know that you would like to spend time with and get to know your son, but the person that I knew ten years ago wasn't a very good influence. I'd like to spend some time with you and get to know you better before I allow you to spend time with our son. You may mention this to your significant other and very close family members, but I'd prefer if you kept it quiet until we've worked out whether you'd like to have continued involvement in our son's life. I don't want him spending time with your girlfriend until I get to know her and feel comfortable around her, because I don't want William getting attached to people who might not be in his life long-term. Once we work out the kinks, we'll decide how to move forward." 

 

Or, "I'm incredibly uncomfortable with the way your family is continually targeted, and am worried about what would happen if someone found out the man running for mayor has a son considering what's happened to the previous candidates. I'll let you meet him today, but could we hold of any other discussions until things are more settled and I'm sure he'd be safe?" 

 

Easy peasy. Believably concerned mother looking out for the best interests of her son. Instead we got a woman who listed a shitload of reasons why she didn't want Oliver around her kid, then decided he could be around her kid as long as he agreed not to tell anyone ever, including the child. Completely and utterly unreasonable and ridiculous. 

It's writing like this that would make me not hate the BabyMamaDrama. I could have taken the storyline unfolding like this, if that was the response we would get from the writers. Once again, it's not the BM or the secret kid ~ it is the writing for drama & plot contrivances that are gonna ruin whatever good potential the child subplot could have provided.

[Ceylon5]

You know, everyone's saying that Oliver kept this a secret from Felicity because of BabyMama's demands or because he was scared to lose her based on what Barry had said, but his earlier actions don't really bear this out.  Oliver deliberately decided not to tell Felicity about it at numerous points along the way, some prior to the existence of either of those reasons:

 

1) When he first suspected the boy was his, he didn't tell her (but when she knew something was up he claimed he'd tell her later if it turned out to be 'something').  If one excused this by thinking that he didn't want to tell her until he was really sure the boy was his, he promptly disproved this with his next action:

 

2) When he got the paternity test results from Barry, he specifically told Barry to keep it a secret (which could only mean from Felicity, since no-one else seemed the least bit interested in Oliver's side project).  This was before he went back and spoke to BM, but after he knew there was 'something' to tell Felicity.  What was his excuse at that point for not wanting to tell her the truth?  He knew he had a kid, he didn't know BM would tell him to keep it a secret, and he didn't have any reason to believe that Felicity would break up with him about it.  But still he didn't talk to her about it, and, in fact, very deliberately kept it a secret from her.  Which is so stupid, because Oliver should know by now that he needs her input in highly charged emotional situations, because on his own he invariably makes incredibly bad decisions.

 

3) In timeline 1, when he found out she knew, instead of being relieved she knew without him having to tell her (which would be the case if he'd badly wanted to tell her and his only reason for not telling her at that point was because BM told him not to, as everyone is claiming), he got angry and defensive and talked about needing time to process, etc.  Which to me indicates that even if BM hadn't made that demand, Oliver still wouldn't have told Felicity the truth at that point (i.e. he still would have outright lied to her face).  Which honestly doesn't make me all that confident that he'd tell her any time soon thereafter either, because if he didn't want to confide in her when it was a fresh, shocking revelation, why would time passing make telling her any easier?  If he could spend the whole day running around doing BM stuff, the least he could have done was carve out a few minutes to talk to Felicity, who he knew was worrying about him.

 

If you couple those actions (when his only possible reason for not telling her was that he wanted to "process" it on his own before talking about it) with his choices in both timelines to deliberately lie to Felicity about it, then it leads me, at least, to believe that though the story scattered about a few poor excuses for his secrets and lies, these aren't sufficient to explain his overall mindset for not confiding in her.  Oliver might well have simply chosen not to tell Felicity, even without those reasons.  Delaying telling her until he was more used to the idea would have just made (or will make) it harder to tell her later.  How much time is too much time?  What is a person's grace period to get used to an idea that affects other people, before not telling them becomes untenable?  For me, this story didn't make sense on any level, because I didn't feel like there was any reason at all why Oliver wasn't talking to Felicity.  The 'needing to process on his own' excuse just doesn't make sense in the face of her lovingly worrying about him and asking him to confide in her, or in terms of their relationship as it's been portrayed so far.  So, giant fail, writers.

 

Can I also just say that I think it's really sweet that Felicity knew him well enough to immediately know something was going on with him?  And sad that she knew him well enough to know that he had no intention of telling her the truth (which is why I think she went off the deep end so quickly in the fight).

 

Though this particular scenario was implausible to me, I do think that Felicity and Oliver must still have a bunch of serious trust issues that need to be worked out, based on various things that have happened in previous seasons.  So Felicity's reaction in Timeline 1 seemed in keeping with that, though it was thrown in there not to serve the characters and their relationship, but to serve the dumb plot, so was badly written, given no appropriate context or build-up, and the scene itself was at the wrong time (because it was being used as a plot-device, not a character moment) and much too rushed.  Honestly, I'm of the school of thought of "let's pretend season 3 didn't happen", even if it means never dealing with their trust issues again and just having them live happily ever after.  Clearly this is going to be handled badly, so I'd rather they just didn't go there at all.  Sigh.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Ceylon5

[dtissagirl]

2) When he got the paternity test results from Barry, he specifically told Barry to keep it a secret (which could only mean from Felicity, since no-one else seemed the least bit interested in Oliver's side project).  This was before he went back and spoke to BM, but after he knew there was 'something' to tell Felicity.  What was his excuse at that point for not wanting to tell her the truth?  He knew he had a kid, he didn't know BM would tell him to keep it a secret, and he didn't have any reason to believe that Felicity would break up with him about it.  But still he didn't talk to her about it, and, in fact, very deliberately kept it a secret from her.  Which is so stupid, because Oliver should know by now that he needs her input in highly charged emotional situations, because on his own he invariably makes incredibly bad decisions.

 

Hahaha, let me expose how much of a sucker I was while watching the episode:

 

We knew going in that there was gonna be time travel, right? Because they were stupid enough to show us Barry ghosting before anything important happened. So I figured everything Oliver did in Timeline 1 re: BM and kid would be THE WRONG THING, which would ensue catastrophic results both in the superhero plot and in his emotional arc re: O/F.

 

And then I figured that when Barry erased that timeline of doom and gloom and everyone dying and O/F being in shambles, that OF COURSE Oliver would do it right the second time around, because that's how you provide catharsis to your audience.

 

The only person dumber than Oliver while watching the episode was me, really.

[quarks]

Not that the show will ever clarify this point, but it is possible that Oliver and Samantha did try to use a condom and/or other birth control, but the condom broke. That can happen. I think we have a long list of things to criticize Samantha for without adding in that one.

[apinknightmare]

 

When he first suspected the boy was his, he didn't tell her (but when she knew something was up he claimed he'd tell her later if it turned out to be 'something').  If one excused this by thinking that he didn't want to tell her until he was really sure the boy was his, he promptly disproved this with his next action:

 

That's not what he told her. He said "There is something going on, and I'm going to tell you all about it, I would just like the chance to know what I'm dealing with first." Which indicates he was going to tell her regardless of whether the kid was his or not. 

 

He told Barry not to tell anyone because the reason he gave Barry for the DNA test was an absolute lie - that it was something to do with Damien Darhk having an operative in Central City. If Barry had let anyone know that that person would've been on to Oliver. I have no doubt Felicity was his main concern, but everyone else should've been, too, since they're all dealing with Darhk. And I don't begrudge the guy wanting to go meet the kid and see what the hell was up before he told anyone about it. Yes, he should know by now that getting Felicity's input in emotionally charged situations is what he needs, but this is actually one instance where I can kind of forgive him for fumbling around a bit, because he was already in the emotionally charged situation before he knew he needed help - after seeing what he suspected was his kid at Jitters. 

 

When he visited with BM and asked her not to make him keep William a secret from Felicity, it was pretty obvious that he wanted to tell Felicity badly. In timeline1 he agreed to BM's terms, since he kept up the lie about why he brought that hair sample to Barry when Felicity confronted him about it after his visit with William. I agree that he should've been relieved that Felicity found out on her own because he didn't have to keep the secret, and his defensiveness doesn't really make much sense in that scenario, but I don't think the defensiveness makes sense in any scenario, since at that point the truth was out. 

 

IMO, we really don't have any reason to believe that Oliver wouldn't have told her in timeline1 if BM hadn't made the lie a condition. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Ceylon5]

I agree that he should've been relieved that Felicity found out on her own...

 

You agreed with something I said!  I realise that's not the overall gist of your post, but hey, when I see a unicorn, I get super excited and stop to take a picture!

 

ETA:

 

Yes, he should know by now that getting Felicity's input in emotionally charged situations is what he needs, but this is actually one instance where I can kind of forgive him for fumbling around a bit, because he was already in the emotionally charged situation before he knew he needed help - after seeing what he suspected was his kid at Jitters.

 

Okay, this gave me the giggles, because now I have this image of Oliver getting regular telegrams saying "Please be warned, you are going to be in an emotionally charged situation tomorrow at 4pm.  Please ensure that you have Felicity with you at the time so that you are properly prepared and have help on hand when you need it."  And in this case, Felicity saw right away that he was troubled by something.  She offered her help.  He declined it and went off to deal with it on his own.  And I just don't (want to) believe that it's what Oliver would do at this stage in their relationship, so I'm putting it down to crappy writing and hoping they don't muck things up too badly in the aftermath.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Ceylon5

[kismet]

In addition to the legendary KC/SA anti-chemistry, I'd like to add the KC/EBR one as well or maybe that should be LL/FS anti-chemistry because the two actresses certainly seem to hang out a lot off set if you go by all the pics posted on SM. Too bad all that off-screen bonding doesn't work for them on screen, it would definitely make their scenes easier to bear.  

I wonder if that is because of how different both EBR & KC are from their characters. I think so of their natural personality bleeds over a little into their characters. But I also think that EBR is not FS and they have fundamental differences in their personalities. It's why when was asked in an interview she would choose RP over OQ. I feel like whatever chemistry or friendship EBR & KC have off set, it doesn't translate on set because the characters are not the same as their counterparts.

 

I wish the chemistry would translate since now LL is on TA and in the lair, but it seems likes its not working. I also wonder if is has to do with KC's acting style where she somehow perhaps unintentionally manages to separate her acting choices from her real life interactions. Perhaps she overthinks & over-prepares her role and that is why it negates any natural chemistry she might have off set. Either way there is a devoid of onscreen chemistry between LL & FS, but I doubt that will stop the writers from trying to get those L/F scenes this season.

[wonderwall]

Can someone explain to me the notion that Felicity is obsessed/is very clingy with Oliver? In an unhealthy way?

 

Because.................. I don't see it.