“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Wasn't purgatory just as long as Sam/Amelia?  TBH, I didn't care for either plot, so Im glad they weren't the focus of a whole episode each and were  only flashbacks.  But I can see why they would want to focus on both Sam and Dean and not just Dean so adding the Sam/AMara makes sense.

Actually, the thing Carver was excited about was the Sam/Amelia storyline. That's all he could talk about most of the time. I think it's Dean's sl that they came up with while trying to figure out a way to get rid of Dean for a year so the Sam/Amelia relationship could develop. However, purgatory was a hit and Sam/Amelia was a flop. They should have easily seen that result coming IMO.

[Airmid]

2 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

I understand what your saying. The writing often makes it very hard to empathize with Sam and that's never a good thing IMO. As far as all the subtleties to the plots everyone is coming up with, IMO you are giving the writers to much credit. They appear to me to only know how to do the in your face style of writing. I still don't think they are intentionally trying to do such damage to Sam's character. There is no way they are doing that intentionally to Jared so that leaves me with unintentional.

I doubt it was an intentional thing either. I kind of always got the feeling that they thought it was going to be a badass setup for Sam to both go dark and live on the edge and then come back at the last minute. The problem is how you put it, the in your face writing style weighed down heavier with two ton anvils. There is little room for subtle and what we get throughout the season is Sam basically choosing everything over his brother till he makes a booboo. And that's an extreme disservice to the character. 

On the flip side, it was usually well acted with several episodes going into excellent. When the Levee Breaks is one, but that doesn't change the fact that it tore the heart out of Sam's character more though with him being a full blown addict unable to hear what his loved ones were saying it does make sense. To me, the final nail of the whole misguided thing was actually in Lucifer Rising. Dean's main focus is on getting and helping Sam. Sam actually begins to take a step back, fresh from fighting with his brother and is feeling hesitation, that perhaps this is not the way to do it.

Then he gets a voicemail and goes, 'oh well' and that was it. To me, how they did that whole tangled thing was that he was never really that on the fence. That he just wanted Dean back in his pocket and approving of his choices which is fine when it's not: a lead character who is half of a brother team that normally saves people but instead is about to start the end of the world and be the meat puppet for Satan.

Kind of sucks when it is that though.

So, that's why I always wished they had gotten Sam to that finish line a different way then that. I didn't actually start liking Sam beyond just tolerating him on the screen until Point of No Return.

43 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm fairly certain the main reason they cut the purgatory  storyline short was a lack of desire, on the showrunners part to separate Sam and Dean, which was why they skipped Deans time there and told it through a series of quick flashbacks. 

Which is such a shame really because the whole thing needed to breathe. I'm not saying that they needed half a season of that but dedicating the whole first episode to how they coped with Dean popping out in the end would have been nice. Or have framed the whole thing with Dean coming back to earth and getting to Sam with the rest being filled with what they both had been doing. 

I know it would have derailed the season and they may have had to drop the episode about the witch sleeping with his dog slave - erm - familiar (fan favorite, I know, it would have been a travesty) but we could have had sympathy for Sam. Dean and the audience maybe could have been allowed to really get the idea of why Sam acted the way he did outside of just being a hot mess, which I'm sure Dean knows. 

4 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I thought when fans griped about the Dean in purgatory sl disappearing so fast that Singer said they had to cut it short because the VFX was too expensive. I know splitting up the brothers is supposed to be a problem but there was no effort to write a solution that would have extended purgatory. Instead, we got Sam/Amelia.

True, and the whole Samelia thingy did split up the brothers. Sam driving at phantom speeds to reach her in the middle of a hunt while Dean was chained to a radiator while a rabid hunter went after his only friend. Forced brother angst for the win! Isn't having one of your leads involved in a love triangle so much more engrossing than the hurt and horror of knowing your loved one is trapped and the only way you know how to get him out is to let all of Purgatory out with him? 

Then, somehow they made Sam look like even more of a jackass with the whole coyote reaper episode. Sorry Sam, guess it really was that easy to get Dean back. 

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, Airmid said:

I doubt it was an intentional thing either. I kind of always got the feeling that they thought it was going to be a badass setup for Sam to both go dark and live on the edge and then come back at the last minute. The problem is how you put it, the in your face writing style weighed down heavier with two ton anvils. There is little room for subtle and what we get throughout the season is Sam basically choosing everything over his brother till he makes a booboo. And that's an extreme disservice to the character. 

On the flip side, it was usually well acted with several episodes going into excellent. When the Levee Breaks is one, but that doesn't change the fact that it tore the heart out of Sam's character more though with him being a full blown addict unable to hear what his loved ones were saying it does make sense. To me, the final nail of the whole misguided thing was actually in Lucifer Rising. Dean's main focus is on getting and helping Sam. Sam actually begins to take a step back, fresh from fighting with his brother and is feeling hesitation, that perhaps this is not the way to do it.

Then he gets a voicemail and goes, 'oh well' and that was it. To me, how they did that whole tangled thing was that he was never really that on the fence. That he just wanted Dean back in his pocket and approving of his choices which is fine when it's not: a lead character who is half of a brother team that normally saves people but instead is about to start the end of the world and be the meat puppet for Satan.

Kind of sucks when it is that though.

So, that's why I always wished they had gotten Sam to that finish line a different way then that. I didn't actually start liking Sam beyond just tolerating him on the screen until Point of No Return.

Which is such a shame really because the whole thing needed to breathe. I'm not saying that they needed half a season of that but dedicating the whole first episode to how they coped with Dean popping out in the end would have been nice. Or have framed the whole thing with Dean coming back to earth and getting to Sam with the rest being filled with what they both had been doing. 

I know it would have derailed the season and they may have had to drop the episode about the witch sleeping with his dog slave - erm - familiar (fan favorite, I know, it would have been a travesty) but we could have had sympathy for Sam. Dean and the audience maybe could have been allowed to really get the idea of why Sam acted the way he did outside of just being a hot mess, which I'm sure Dean knows. 

True, and the whole Samelia thingy did split up the brothers. Sam driving at phantom speeds to reach her in the middle of a hunt while Dean was chained to a radiator while a rabid hunter went after his only friend. Forced brother angst for the win! Isn't having one of your leads involved in a love triangle so much more engrossing than the hurt and horror of knowing your loved one is trapped and the only way you know how to get him out is to let all of Purgatory out with him? 

Then, somehow they made Sam look like even more of a jackass with the whole coyote reaper episode. Sorry Sam, guess it really was that easy to get Dean back. 

Let us not forget that jackass season eight Dean came up with the idea of making Sam think that someone he cared for was in serious danger! If jackass Dean hadn't done that then Sam would never have needed to go in the first place ;)

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I doubt it was an intentional thing either. I kind of always got the feeling that they thought it was going to be a badass setup for Sam to both go dark and live on the edge and then come back at the last minute. The problem is how you put it, the in your face writing style weighed down heavier with two ton anvils. There is little room for subtle and what we get throughout the season is Sam basically choosing everything over his brother till he makes a booboo. And that's an extreme disservice to the character. 

On the flip side, it was usually well acted with several episodes going into excellent. When the Levee Breaks is one, but that doesn't change the fact that it tore the heart out of Sam's character more though with him being a full blown addict unable to hear what his loved ones were saying it does make sense. To me, the final nail of the whole misguided thing was actually in Lucifer Rising. Dean's main focus is on getting and helping Sam. Sam actually begins to take a step back, fresh from fighting with his brother and is feeling hesitation, that perhaps this is not the way to do it.

Then he gets a voicemail and goes, 'oh well' and that was it. To me, how they did that whole tangled thing was that he was never really that on the fence. That he just wanted Dean back in his pocket and approving of his choices which is fine when it's not: a lead character who is half of a brother team that normally saves people but instead is about to start the end of the world and be the meat puppet for Satan.

Kind of sucks when it is that though.

So, that's why I always wished they had gotten Sam to that finish line a different way then that. I didn't actually start liking Sam beyond just tolerating him on the screen until Point of No Return.

Which is such a shame really because the whole thing needed to breathe. I'm not saying that they needed half a season of that but dedicating the whole first episode to how they coped with Dean popping out in the end would have been nice. Or have framed the whole thing with Dean coming back to earth and getting to Sam with the rest being filled with what they both had been doing. 

I know it would have derailed the season and they may have had to drop the episode about the witch sleeping with his dog slave - erm - familiar (fan favorite, I know, it would have been a travesty) but we could have had sympathy for Sam. Dean and the audience maybe could have been allowed to really get the idea of why Sam acted the way he did outside of just being a hot mess, which I'm sure Dean knows. 

True, and the whole Samelia thingy did split up the brothers. Sam driving at phantom speeds to reach her in the middle of a hunt while Dean was chained to a radiator while a rabid hunter went after his only friend. Forced brother angst for the win! Isn't having one of your leads involved in a love triangle so much more engrossing than the hurt and horror of knowing your loved one is trapped and the only way you know how to get him out is to let all of Purgatory out with him? 

Then, somehow they made Sam look like even more of a jackass with the whole coyote reaper episode. Sorry Sam, guess it really was that easy to get Dean back. 

Ditto

[Airmid]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Let us not forget that jackass season eight Dean came up with the idea of making Sam think that someone he cared for was in serious danger! If jackass Dean hadn't done that then Sam would never have needed to go in the first place ;)

True. They both where. Though if Sam hadn't been such a twit to Benny it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place. 

Though I think I always was harder on Sam for that entire asinine situation because he was willing to leave Dean in a very dangerous situation. It's hard to sell the brother bond when it looks like one brother is willing to trade in the other for a Hostess Cupcake. 

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Let us not forget that jackass season eight Dean came up with the idea of making Sam think that someone he cared for was in serious danger! If jackass Dean hadn't done that then Sam would never have needed to go in the first place ;)

Actually, it's kind of sad that Dean knew his brother well enough to know that Sam would abandon him without a word or thought for his (Dean's)safety and run to Amelia . If Sam really thought someone Dean considered a friend was dangerous to Dean and others but takes off anyway, it doesn't make Sam look good. And that isn't even taking into account he abandoned a mentally unstable Hunter literally in the middle of a hunt.

4 minutes ago, Airmid said:

It's hard to sell the brother bond when it looks like one brother is willing to trade in the other for a Hostess Cupcake. 

That pretty much sums it up nicely.

[Wayward Son]

And did Dean not get frantic when he thought Lisa and Ben were in danger from Crowley? In my opinion it's pretty hypocritical to judge Sam here if you don't judge Dean then.

[Airmid]

17 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Actually, it's kind of sad that Dean knew his brother well enough to know that Sam would abandon him without a word or thought for his (Dean's)safety and run to Amelia . If Sam really thought someone Dean considered a friend was dangerous to Dean and others but takes off anyway, it doesn't make Sam look good. And that isn't even taking into account he abandoned a mentally unstable Hunter literally in the middle of a hunt.

I think, in Sam's defense, that Dean would have simply assumed the worse in this situation. Given what has happened in the past and Dean's inability to maybe let things go all the way (given what he says to Sam when the latter is on his way to confession in the finale Sacrifice), along with feeling as though he has little inherit worth - yeah I can see him thinking Sam would bolt. He has at least a good platform to stand on given that Sam ran when he got sucked in with the people eater and spent a year in monster heaven. 

The major problem is that the writers let Sam do this. They let him run off and it was icky. It's what makes it so sad that Dean was right, that he really did know the extent of his brother's loyalty and there wasn't much to measure. Not to mention that Sam decides to restart his affair with Amelia in the very next episode after he had driven all the way there while leaving his brother to help himself and decided to leave her alone. Just, yuck.

Finally, there was no reason to do this. Zero. No reason to cause this much strife and heartache at all between them. It was separating the brothers without separating them fully. 

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And did Dean not get frantic when he thought Lisa and Ben were in danger from Crowley? In my opinion it's pretty hypocritical to judge Sam here if you don't judge Dean then.

Dean didn't run off and leave his family in danger. He summoned demons in a drunken (possible drug fueled) rage and tortured them for information.  Dean wasn't intentionally ditching anyone he loved to go save the other part of his family. He didn't leave Sam in immediate danger.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Airmid

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And did Dean not get frantic when he thought Lisa and Ben were in danger from Crowley? In my opinion it's pretty hypocritical to judge Sam here if you don't judge Dean then.

Yes and did he abandoned Sam and leave him in imminent danger without a word?  Not as far as I recall.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I think, in Sam's defense, that Dean would have simply assumed the worse in this situation. Given what has happened in the past and Dean's inability to maybe let things go all the way (given what he says to Sam when the latter is on his way to confession in the finale Sacrifice), along with feeling as though he has little inherit worth - yeah I can see him thinking Sam would bolt. He has at least a good platform to stand on given that Sam ran when he got sucked in with the people eater and spent a year in monster heaven. 

The major problem is that the writers let Sam do this. They let him run off and it was icky. It's what makes it so sad that Dean was right, that he really did know the extent of his brother's loyalty and there wasn't much to measure. Not to mention that Sam decides to restart his affair with Amelia in the very next episode after he had driven all the way there while leaving his brother to help himself and decided to leave her alone. Just, yuck.

Finally, there was no reason to do this. Zero. No reason to cause this much strife and heartache at all between them. It was separating the brothers without separating them fully. 

Dean didn't run off and leave his family in danger. He summoned demons in a drunken (possible drug fueled) rage and tortured them for information.  Dean wasn't intentionally ditching anyone he loved to go save the other part of his family. He didn't leave Sam in immediate danger.

 

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

Yes and did he abandoned Sam and leave him in imminent danger without a word?  Not as far as I recall.

No, because when Lisa was in danger Sam was supportive of Dean and the stress he was going through. Unlike Dean, who was the manipulative jackass who purposely caused Sam distress. He knew from his own experiences with Lisa and Ben how he was going to make Sam feel. So let us not pretend Dean is in any way morally superior in this situation. 

Also let's not forget Dean is a competent hunter and Amelia is an innocent civilian. She is naturally the one in more need of his protection. If something had happened to Dean it would have been his own fault for causing Sam to leave in the first place. 

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, Airmid said:

 

The major problem is that the writers let Sam do this. They let him run off and it was icky. It's what makes it so sad that Dean was right, that he really did know the extent of his brother's loyalty and there wasn't much to measure. Not to mention that Sam decides to restart his affair with Amelia in the very next episode after he had driven all the way there while leaving his brother to help himself and decided to leave her alone. Just, yuck.

This. It can easily be argued that Sam is the favored character and yet the writers unintentionally have him do things that causes him to be unsympathetic (at best) to a number of the fans. It all goes back to writers and showrunners who don't have a clue how people not sitting in the writers room will react to what they put on the screen.

[ILoveReading]

32 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Let us not forget that jackass season eight Dean came up with the idea of making Sam think that someone he cared for was in serious danger! If jackass Dean hadn't done that then Sam would never have needed to go in the first place ;)

If Sam had trusted his brother and not gone after Benny for not other reason then jealousy then none of it would have been necessary.  What does it say about Sam that Dean had that pre-planned, that Dean knew Sam was going to try something. 

The show called Dean out that that plenty, while ignoring everything Sam did.

If Sam had stopped for five minutes, might have realized that it really couldn't have been a life or death emergency because if it was and your life was on the line would you call:

1. 911

2. Your husband who is a marine and probably nearby

3. Text the guy you haven't seen in months, have no idea if he has the same phone number, have no idea how far away he is, and have no idea if he;'ll respond. 

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 

No, because when Lisa was in danger Sam was supportive of Dean and the stress he was going through. Unlike Dean, who was the manipulative jackass who purposely caused Sam distress. He knew from his own experiences with Lisa and Ben how he was going to make Sam feel. So let us not pretend Dean is in any way morally superior in this situation. 

Also let's not forget Dean is a competent hunter and Amelia is an innocent civilian. She is naturally the one in more need of his protection. If something had happened to Dean it would have been his own fault for causing Sam to leave in the first place. 

Dean is a competent Hunter that was left chained, unconscious and without weapons to a radiator.

[Aeryn13]

I hated the resolution of that episode with everyone harping on how Dean was so horrible with the text message and poor saint Sam had done nothing wrong whatsoever. Teflon!Sam at his finest.

And if Sam was too stupid to think of using a phone in that scenario, sorry. I was rolling my eyes at that scene. The only thing missing was that he ran over that numbskull Martin in his haste to get to Amelia. 

During the first half of Season 8 I really saw no guilt from Sam in present time. He was downright self-righteous about his decision not to do anything and bemoaned that Dean came back to bother him in his pretty new life as if Dean needed to apologize for that. And this "get over it already" attitude? Seriously wanted to beat him black and blue in that period.  

So all that whiny church babble in the Finale that once again blame-shifted things around on Dean and painted him as the victim? Fuck that. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If Sam had trusted his brother and not gone after Benny for not other reason then jealousy then none of it would have been necessary.  What does it say about Sam that Dean had that pre-planned, that Dean knew Sam was going to try something. 

The show called Dean out that that plenty, while ignoring everything Sam did.

If Sam had stopped for five minutes, might have realized that it really couldn't have been a life or death emergency because if it was and your life was on the line would you call:

1. 911

2. Your husband who is a marine and probably nearby

3. Text the guy you haven't seen in months, have no idea if he has the same phone number, have no idea how far away he is, and have no idea if he;'ll respond. 

So true! The text said simply, "I need your help. Come quick." And he did nothing to verify it at all, just ran. It was dirty pool on Dean's part, but come on, this is super-smart Sam we're talking about. It made no sense, but it was completely in character for the Sam presented us in S8. And it's not really a fair comparison to Dean and Lisa/Ben, who they knew weren't just in imminent, but active danger.

And seriously, who has the love of their life listed in their contacts by first and last name? LOL!

Edited May 25, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
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[Airmid]

15 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 

No, because when Lisa was in danger Sam was supportive of Dean and the stress he was going through. Unlike Dean, who was the manipulative jackass who purposely caused Sam distress. He knew from his own experiences with Lisa and Ben how he was going to make Sam feel. So let us not pretend Dean is in any way morally superior in this situation. 

Also let's not forget Dean is a competent hunter and Amelia is an innocent civilian. She is naturally the one in more need of his protection. If something had happened to Dean it would have been his own fault for causing Sam to leave in the first place. 

I'm confused why we're even comparing the two events at all because they aren't similar just based on the first sentence. Sam was the epitome of unsupportive when season eight went live. He didn't:

1) Attempt to get Dean as far as we know

2) Attempt to get Kevin

3) Attempt to find an angel that wouldn't eat him and tell them the prophet was kidnapped by the king of hell

What he did do was take a job, hit a dog and date a vet with no background on how he ended up there outside of 'we promised each other'.

And then, Sam decides to hate on Benny which is rather OOC for him. Yes, being suspicious of a monster's intentions is all well and good but Sam just flat out wanting to murder him on sight? This, the same boy who last season let a monster walk and then fumed when Dean went back and finished her but spared her son? This is supposed to be that same Sam?

Dean's done some major underhanded and bad things, yes. He's done things he's not thought through but for the purpose of the conversation no, the Lisa/Ben situation is not the same thing as the Amelia/Sam one, IMO.

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The show called Dean out that that plenty, while ignoring everything Sam did.

If Sam had stopped for five minutes, might have realized that it really couldn't have been a life or death emergency because if it was and your life was on the line would you call:

1. 911

2. Your husband who is a marine and probably nearby

3. Text the guy you haven't seen in months, have no idea if he has the same phone number, have no idea how far away he is, and have no idea if he;'ll respond. 

Heh, it makes me feel so bad for the character. What makes it funnier (in a dark way) is the distance the writers had Sam travel during the whole thing. Like they had never looked at a map or wondered if maybe Sam would actually try to call her on his way there to see if she was still alive or if we were kicking off a revenge plot here. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Airmid

[Idahoforspn]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I hated the resolution of that episode with everyone harping on how Dean was so horrible with the text message and poor saint Sam had done nothing wrong whatsoever. Teflon!Sam at his finest.

 

This. Teflon Sam got old real fast.

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

During the first half of Season 8 I really saw no guilt from Sam in present time. He was downright self-righteous about his decision not to do anything and bemoaned that Dean came back to bother him in his pretty new life as if Dean needed to apologize for that. And this "get over it already" attitude? Seriously wanted to beat him black and blue in that period.  

Unfortunately, that is the impression the writing gave me too. 

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

[companionenvy]

I will never understand how people reconcile the belief that Sam is the obvious favorite of the writers with the belief that they are pretty consistently writing him as a total asshole.

Of course, I also find Sam a largely sympathetic character who has made major mistakes but has proven time and time again that he deeply loves his brother, so MMV. 

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

During the first half of Season 8 I really saw no guilt from Sam in present time

This is why Sam's apology in s11 didn't work.  Not only was he guilted into by Lucifer, he said, he'd never forgive himself.  But I can't think of a time when he actually felt guilty for not looking.

That's the biggest problem with the show and Sam's so-called flaws.   I find it tends to put Sam's flaws down to other people's reaction to what Sam is doing rather than the actions themselves.  What I mean is during season 4, Sam lied from the minute Dean showed up.   He spent the season going behind Dean's back and lying.  Dean tried, he even told Sam to keep his secrets, just stop lying.  But somehow, none of that was wrong.  It was wrong that Dean was angry about it and he had to apologize to Sam and prove he trusted him. 

Same with S8.  It wasn't wrong for Sam not to look, it was wrong for Dean to be hurt by it.  After a season of Sam acting like he wished Dean stayed gone, and despite Sam's fancy words about looking after Dean and showing him the light, he did nothing to back up his fancy speech.  Dean ended up having to support Sam all through the trial sand then end up promising that Sam will always come first for him, despite that fact it was Sam who has chosen other people over him.

Sam follows the Brits, that's not wrong, what was wrong was that he didn't try to lead them.  Sam gets the fancy hero speech and now he's suddenly the leader.  (I don't believe for one minute that won't carry over to next season.  I'm sure Sam will singlehandedly organize all the American Hunters while Dean stands around silent.

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I will never understand how people reconcile the belief that Sam is the obvious favorite of the writers with the belief that they are pretty consistently writing him as a total asshole.

Of course, I also find Sam a largely sympathetic character who has made major mistakes but has proven time and time again that he deeply loves his brother, so MMV. 

I guess it's because the showrunners constantly talk about Sam this and Sam that even when asked something about Dean. Plus they gave us vallium Dean this season. And even Jensen said the story (series total) focuses on Sam.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is why Sam's apology in s11 didn't work.  Not only was he guilted into by Lucifer, he said, he'd never forgive himself.  But I can't think of a time when he actually felt guilty for not looking.

For me, Sam's jealous reaction to Benny was born out of his own feelings of guilt for failing Dean--again. He didn't come out and say it, but his actions spoke volumes to me.

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

That's the biggest problem with the show and Sam's so-called flaws.   I find it tends to put Sam's flaws down to other people's reaction to what Sam is doing rather than the actions themselves.  What I mean is during season 4, Sam lied from the minute Dean showed up.   He spent the season going behind Dean's back and lying.  Dean tried, he even told Sam to keep his secrets, just stop lying.  But somehow, none of that was wrong.  It was wrong that Dean was angry about it and he had to apologize to Sam and prove he trusted him. 

Same with S8.  It wasn't wrong for Sam not to look, it was wrong for Dean to be hurt by it.  After a season of Sam acting like he wished Dean stayed gone, and despite Sam's fancy words about looking after Dean and showing him the light, he did nothing to back up his fancy speech.  Dean ended up having to support Sam all through the trial sand then end up promising that Sam will always come first for him, despite that fact it was Sam who has chosen other people over him.

Sam follows the Brits, that's not wrong, what was wrong was that he didn't try to lead them.  Sam gets the fancy hero speech and now he's suddenly the leader.  (I don't believe for one minute that won't carry over to next season.  I'm sure Sam will singlehandedly organize all the American Hunters while Dean stands around silent.

This!

[CluelessDrifter]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

 

No, because when Lisa was in danger Sam was supportive of Dean and the stress he was going through. Unlike Dean, who was the manipulative jackass who purposely caused Sam distress. He knew from his own experiences with Lisa and Ben how he was going to make Sam feel. So let us not pretend Dean is in any way morally superior in this situation. 

Also let's not forget Dean is a competent hunter and Amelia is an innocent civilian. She is naturally the one in more need of his protection. If something had happened to Dean it would have been his own fault for causing Sam to leave in the first place. 

So, it would've been okay if Sam killed an innocent?  That's what Benny was at that point, and Sam would've done it for no reason other than he felt guilty about leaving Dean high and dry when Benny didn't.  It wasn't quite jealousy, but it was related to it in that Benny shone a spotlight on Sam's own failures and for that had to be eliminated.  

Was it okay to put Dean through the kind of distress caused by siccing a questionable hunter on Dean's innocent brother-in-arms, planning to kill said brother-in-arms on the say so of Martin over Dean's word that Benny was innocent, or leaving Dean knocked out and cuffed to a radiator?  Sam being worried for a few hours over a threat that never existed is in no way equivalent to the emotional distress he caused Dean if that's what we're measuring in this scenario or the very real danger he put Benny in for personal reasons . . . IMO.  

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

For me, Sam's jealous reaction to Benny was born out of his own feelings of guilt for failing Dean--again. He didn't come out and say it, but his actions spoke volumes to me.

I couldn't see that in his behaviour at all. All I see is jealousy which is confirmed in the episode where Dean is under the influence of the cursed coin.

[Aeryn13]

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I will never understand how people reconcile the belief that Sam is the obvious favorite of the writers with the belief that they are pretty consistently writing him as a total asshole.

Because I don`t think THEY think they are writing him remotely like an asshole. Dean being hurt by Sam not looking in Season 8 was apparently their attempt to write Dean like an asshole because that feeling was wrong. Or something. Same with Mary. They wrote her bitchy as could be but Dean was the one who had to apologize for wanting to be babied.

The writers do this all the time. And consistently I don`t have the reaction I`m obviously supposed to have and worship/trash the respective character I`m supposed to. They are just not that good at their job IMO. 

Quote

Sam follows the Brits, that's not wrong, what was wrong was that he didn't try to lead them.  Sam gets the fancy hero speech and now he's suddenly the leader.  (I don't believe for one minute that won't carry over to next season.  I'm sure Sam will singlehandedly organize all the American Hunters while Dean stands around silent.

Maybe he can hold Sam`s water bottle or something. But yes, I totally agree. The pimping was so obvious in that scene. And the content itself ridiculous. "Oh well, I made a big mistake in falling in with the BMOL... well not so much in that really because now I figured out I`m a great leader so as a reward for me being a numbskull and you doing nothing wrong, you should stare at me in awe and worship me as your G...um, well, at least you should follow me".  

Edited May 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Because I don`t think THEY think they are writing him remotely like an asshole. Dean being hurt by Sam not looking in Season 8 was apparently their attempt to write Dean like an asshole because that feeling was wrong. Or something. Same with Mary. They wrote her bitchy as could be but Dean was the one who had to apologize for wanting to be babied.

The writers do this all the time. And consistently I don`t have the reaction I`m obviously supposed to have and worship/trash the respective character I`m supposed to. They are just not that good at their job IMO. 

Maybe he can hold Sam`s water bottle or something. But yes, I totally agree. The pimping was so obvious in that scene. And the content itself ridiculous. "Oh well, I made a big mistake in falling in with the BMOL... well not so much in that really because now I figured out I`m a great leader so as a reward for me being a numbskull and you doing nothing wrong, you should stare at me in awe and worship me as your G...um, well, at least you should follow me".  

+a zillion

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I couldn't see that in his behaviour at all. All I see is jealousy which is confirmed in the episode where Dean is under the influence of the cursed coin.

But, why was he jealous? I think he was jealous because this monster had managed to do something Sam failed to even consider doing--save Dean.

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

But, why was he jealous? I think he was jealous because this monster had managed to do something Sam failed to even consider doing--save Dean.

Yes. I think that was a big part of Sam's problem with Benny.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

What I really, really didn't like about Sam's story line this season was the reason they gave for why Sam joined the BMoL.  I felt like it made more sense for Sam to be upset by Vince Vicente's death since Sam was a fan, and for him to start to toy with the idea of using the BMoL technology, like the magic egg, so they could be more effective on hunts.  Then I thought with Mary joining them, and her saying that it was okay for him to work with them too, it might have given him the little push he needed to go for it, but saying he did it because it was easier to follow orders than do things their own way was really disappointing, especially since, as I said, Sam felt like he had no control over his life for much of his life, and now he just wants to give that up completely?

Actually I agree with you here and even said as much in other threads and probably this one, too. I hated the reasoning they gave for Sam supposedly joining the BMoL and the implication that Sam was maybe following the BMoL, because it was easier. I have long contended that Sam will follow Dean, because he trusts Dean. I hate the implication that Sam might follow just because he'll follow anyone, and I don't think that's true.

All that being said, for me, the reasoning given for Sam returning to the blood-drinking in "Chris Angel..." was just as weak, and considering the severity of the story and the addiction, I think it deserved a whole lot more focus and consideration beyond whatever "I don't want to be doing this when I'm older" was supposed to mean (did that even make sense?).

It is a sad statement when the main reason a storyline is not as bad is because at least Sam didn't beat his brother half to death, kill an innocent nurse, and set Lucifer free, with the bonus of at least getting a little character growth, but unfortunately when it comes to being someone who loves Sam as a character, often that's the best that I can hope for.

3 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

I still don't think they are intentionally trying to do such damage to Sam's character.

Whereas because of things like these:

21 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Then, somehow they made Sam look like even more of a jackass with the whole coyote reaper episode. Sorry Sam, guess it really was that easy to get Dean back. 

14 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Though I think I always was harder on Sam for that entire asinine situation because he was willing to leave Dean in a very dangerous situation. It's hard to sell the brother bond when it looks like one brother is willing to trade in the other for a Hostess Cupcake.

I disagree. For me, it can't be coincidence that almost every time the writers supposedly "accidentally" make Sam look bad, it usually means Dean looks better in comparison - the finale just being yet another example. Consider the "The Purge" speech... it came at just the perfect time when some sympathy for what Dean had done was needed, and then it set up the entire arc where Sam would be wrong and say "I lied."* Any sympathy for Sam built up earlier in the season with Sam thinking he was damaged again was ceremoniously dumped / shifted / whatever with Sam's speech, making it instead look like the problem was that Sam was cruel and just didn't appreciate his brother. I do not think this was unintentional, because it was exactly what was needed to make sure that Dean looked sympathetic in the situation. That Dean was shown to be almost completely right in the end, in that Sam would do the same thing, and oh, look Gadreel did do good and helped save the world... and he didn't really try to hurt Sam after all. See Sam doesn't think Gadreel was trying to be bad and even calls him a "friend"... My opinion: bullshit. In my opinion, the whole thing starting with the "The Purge" speech was a set up to turn things around and make what Dean did look better in comparison. There was no "unintentional" about it in my opinion or things would have been balanced out with Dean no being completely right about everything and Gadreel being presented as redeemed and 'good" in the end.

* (I know somewhere here on this board, @catrox14, you addressed this recently, and I meant to respond to that (but lost the thread). If you ever do find what the original script was supposed to be before Jared changed the line, I would be interested in seeing it. My suspicion, based on what Carver did to Sam's character in season 8, was that it was likely worse than "I lied.")

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So true! The text said "I need your help. Come quick." And he did nothing to verify it at all, just ran. It was dirty pool on Dean's part, but come on, this is super-smart Sam we're talking about. It made no sense, but it was completely in character for the Sam presented us in S8. And it's not really a fair comparison to Dean and Lisa/Ben, who they knew weren't just in imminent, but active danger.

Exactly. The character assassination was completely intentional in my opinion.

Sadly, I think it was to maybe erase all of the character growth that Gamble - who actually tried to write both brothers as decent human beings, not just Dean - had given Sam so that there would be "angst" between the brothers. I'm sorry, but for me, "Citizen Fang" was intentional character assassination, and the harping on the text thing was just there to make it look like they were trying to show Dean did "bad" too, but I don't think the writers believed that at all.

As @Airmid said, this was not the Sam we'd seen in season 7, and Carver made no attempt to give Sam any sympathetic reason for his behavior. That the character assassination continued in season 9 just at the point when Sam might be considered as getting, maybe, a bit sympathetic again - see my above comments - to me, is just more proof.

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Teflon!Sam at his finest.

If it was really "Teflon!Sam," in my opinion, they would have given Sam a valid reason for not looking for Dean. But they purposely didn't and then had Bobby call Sam out on it. And, for me, that wasn't correction, because Carver had Kevin call Sam out on it in the very first episode. In my opinion, the "Eeeeeat me's" were pretty good evidence that Carver knew exactly what he was doing was making Sam look bad, and that he thought that it was amusing. By the time they had Sam - who in the beginning was appalled at even considering Ava because she was engaged - have sex with Amelia knowing that she was married, I was pretty sure that Carver's goal was to ruin the character for some reason. I have no idea why, since "Mystery Spot" was one of my favorite Sam episodes and was the total opposite of what he presented in season 8.

3 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I will never understand how people reconcile the belief that Sam is the obvious favorite of the writers with the belief that they are pretty consistently writing him as a total asshole.

Exactly.

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean tried, he even told Sam to keep his secrets, just stop lying.  But somehow, none of that was wrong.  It was wrong that Dean was angry about it and he had to apologize to Sam and prove he trusted him. 

I disagree. Because if teh point was supposed to be that Dean should trust Sam, then in my opinion, Sam would have been right about killing Lilith, but he wasn't, so no. But I think season 4 conveniently skipped over that Dean made the deal in the first place that put Sam in the position he was in. "On the Head of A Pin" brought it up, but made sure to paint it all very sympathetically and tragically for Dean. By the end of the season, the entire apocalypse was blamed on Sam and his choices... everyone else: Dean (for making the deal to begin with even though he knew Sam wouldn't want him to), Uriel, Zachariah, Castiel, Michael, Lucifer, Ruby, Azazel... nope it was all Sam and his bad choices. And that was the mantra we got from the show for at least the next 5 seasons.

Teflon, my lily white butt (my opinion only on that one, I understand).

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Because I don`t think THEY think they are writing him remotely like an asshole. Dean being hurt by Sam not looking in Season 8 was apparently their attempt to write Dean like an asshole because that feeling was wrong. Or something. Same with Mary. They wrote her bitchy as could be but Dean was the one who had to apologize for wanting to be babied.

The writers do this all the time. And consistently I don`t have the reaction I`m obviously supposed to have and worship/trash the respective character I`m supposed to. They are just not that good at their job IMO. 

I completely disagree, because Dean is the one who is right in the end - almost every time... so for me what you are describing is the writers way of setting the other characters up to be even more wrong in the end while also garnering sympathy for Dean with "see how these other characters treat him?"

If, with your example in season 8, Sam was supposed to be right, that would be easy to show - Benny would have been evil. Simple. Sam was "right." End of debate. But not only was Benny not evil, he sacrificed himself to save Sam... in the same episode where Bobby pointed out how wrong Sam was to not look for Dean.

For me the intent was always character assassination in the name of "angst." There were too many clues for me to think otherwise.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, why was he jealous? I think he was jealous because this monster had managed to do something Sam failed to even consider doing--save Dean.

I thought  he was jealous because he believed that Dean was putting Benny in front of him.  Dean defended Benny over Sam and Sam didn't like that.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It is a sad statement when the main reason a storyline is not as bad is because at least Sam didn't beat his brother half to death, kill an innocent nurse, and set Lucifer free, with the bonus of at least getting a little character growth, but unfortunately when it comes to being someone who loves Sam as a character, often that's the best that I can hope for.

Ha!  This made me laugh.  I can imagine.

[Airmid]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I thought  he was jealous because he believed that Dean was putting Benny in front of him.  Dean defended Benny over Sam and Sam didn't like that.

Honestly, I think we were supposed to get a lot of things out of the whole situation, and I agree with the DittyDotDot that Sam was supposed to feel guilty and that's what drove his later actions. The problem is for me that we just never got to see just what the hell Sam was up to those first few weeks Dean was gone, Cas was gone, Kevin abducted, Bobby dead. We only saw the aftermath of whatever happened to Sam and in the end it didn't make him sympathetic. Just strangely slimly and uncaring about Dean. 

I mean, I can even see him having issues becoming reattached to Dean because he keeps losing his brother and being upset over the fact that Benny doesn't have that issue. That Benny and Dean are capable of having a functional relationship, something which at that point isn't available to Sam. 

But we don't get anything that really helps us empathize with him and in the end it just sort of shoves him under the bus. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I completely disagree, because Dean is the one who is right in the end - almost every time... so for me what you are describing is the writers way of setting the other characters up to be even more wrong in the end while also garnering sympathy for Dean with "see how these other characters treat him?"

I think the writers often intend for viewers to cheer on how Dean is treated in a "haha, he is put in his place". And it`s not like that doesn`t work to some degree. I saw so many cheering Sam on for the Purge speech and how it was 100 % the truth.

And Dean being right is often swept under the rug. Like, this Season about the BMOL, Sam was technically wrong but the onus of that speech scene was to showcase him as such a fantastic hero and leader. And Dean stared in awe like all the other hunters.

Dean being right about Lilith? Eh, in Season 5 he was the wrong one for being bossy. Apparently he was being bossy and weak at the same time during Season 4. No small feat.

The not looking, I think they just kinda changed their minds on because the reaction was generally so unfavourable. But previous to that Sam was supposed to be right about it. The "eat me" messages from Kevin? Off-set in this very episode by Sam calling Dean a hypocrite on behalf of poor, beleagered Kevin and all for Dean pointing out that Kevin was in the crosshairs of evil and couldn`t go back to a normal life. But nope, we got a sanctimonious "free will, is that only for you?" scene. 

I can consistently see the writers being puzzled why people would sympathize or side with Dean many times. Like, they will be stroking their chins and go "what did we do wrong? should we put in more Sam is really Jesus scenes?"`Do not believe they realize that it is their over-eager attempts to sell Sam on me come hell or high water and at Dean`s expense that is the problem in the first place I have with connecting with Sam`s character. I don`t want to be brow-beaten into liking a fictional character.

That said, SPN is hardly the only show that does this. Lots of them do and on all those shows that main character is never my favourite. On the shows where the lead IS my fave, that`s when the writing is a lot more easy-going with selling them.  

Edited May 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

Just now, CluelessDrifter said:

Ha!  This made me laugh.  I can imagine.

The Gamble years were wonderful for me, Soulless Sam and all... which in a way just made the Carver years worse. It was heartbreaking and frustrating for me to see the writers take this character that I had come to love again through seasons 5 through 7 and just unceremoniously throw him under the bus in season 8.

And yeah, sometimes it sucks.

[Idahoforspn]

The other problem I have is everyone talks about Sam being a follower. Well this season he definitely wasn't. He came up with the plans and he killed the monsters. If you really watch, Sam hasn't been just a follower for a long time. Dean regularly wants to do things one way but acquiesces when Sam wants to do another. It happens regularly. Two that pop into my head quickly are the hospital when Dean wanted to fight his way out and the health spa where Dean wanted to kill the owner lady. Most of the time he doesn't even argue. It's just an ok what do you want to do.

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the writers often intend for viewers to cheer on how Dean is treated in a "haha, he is put in his place".

I agree with this.

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I can consistently see the writers being puzzled why people would sympathize or side with Dean many time. Like, they will stroking their chins and go "what did we do wrong? should we put in more Sam is really Jesus scenes?"`Do not believe they realize that it is their over-eager attempts to sell Sam on me come hell or high water and at Dean`s expense that is the problem in the first place I have with connecting with Sam`s character. I don`t want to be brow-beaten into liking a fictional character.

 

This is how I think and feel too.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

The Gamble years were wonderful for me, Soulless Sam and all... which in a way just made the Carver years worse. It was heartbreaking and frustrating for me to see the writers take this character that I had come to love again through seasons 5 through 7 and just unceremoniously throw him under the bus in season 8.

And yeah, sometimes it sucks.

I was just starting to forgive Sam for season 4 by the end of season 7, and then we got season 8.  

Personally, I think it would've made for much more compelling TV to have Dean fighting to survive in Purgatory paralleled with Sam searching for a way to get through to him, like maybe he could've tracked down a witch or a psychic to find out where Dean was, talk to Dean the way he talked to Bobby in Inside Man, and research ways to get him out.  The writers could've gone with there being a portal or Sam finding some way to open a portal into Purgatory again (I mean, he already knew Lovecraft found a way to do it because of what happened in season 6).  They could've coordinated Dean getting out that way, or if they wanted to make it more difficult and take longer, Dean couldn't have gotten out through the portal opened by the spell without bringing a whole lot of monsters with him, so then the idea of the human-only portal comes up (Cas's story could've stayed the same as in he chooses to stay behind), and once Dean is out of Purgatory, Sam and Dean go save Kevin together.  Or maybe they could've had Sam start off by saving Kevin, and his scenes of doing could've been mixed in with Dean's scenes in Purgatory.  Then at the end of the episode Kevin could say he heard Crowley say Dean was in Purgatory, and we get Sam doing what I suggested in finding a way to communicate with Dean and finding a way to get him back in the next episode.  Dean could've been back by the third episode, and they could've done something more interesting than the badly manufactured angst . . but the writers didn't do that, and instead, I was left having problems with Sam again. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I saw so many cheering Sam on for the Purge speech and how it was 100 % the truth.

Whereas I saw none of this. Any sympathy for Sam earlier in the season evaporated, which in my opinion, was the intention. Even the dialogue they had Sam say later on - like declaring Gadreel a "real friend" that Sam didn't feel was trying to hurt him - supported Dean's decision to aid Gadreel in taking over Sam and lying to Sam all that time. And then the cherry on the sundae was Gadreel's redemption arc and him having an actual role in saving the world... while Sam spent the incident unconscious.... and then having Sam actually doing the same thing that Dean said he would in trying to cal up Crowley to bring Dean back, making Dean right during that exchange.

So with Gadreel "good" and doing more good than bad, Sam being saved on top of that, and Sam doing what Dean would do... my question is what exactly in that Purge speech were we supposed to have seen as 100% the truth? The show just spent the second half of the season showing us exactly how Sam was wrong and it wasn't the truth.

Not even Dean's decision of taking on the mark of Cain turned out to be wrong. Sam had to admit that he was wrong, and Dean was right that Abbadon needed to die. And then Dean did kill her - with no repercussions (unlike Sam killing Lilith). So again, Dean doing more "good" than "bad" proven.

If the Purge speech was supposed to be 100% the truth, then in my opinion, the show would have shown us that it was the truth and proven Sam right. But considering that Sam wasn't proven right - about anything at all, as usual - tells me that the intention was more likely to set up Sam as wrong. Hence actually showing us that Sam is wrong to then prove that point.

As many here are saying, these writers supposedly aren't complicated... well there you go. Set Sam up as wrong and then show us Sam was wrong. To me that's pretty straightforward.

Same formula as season 8. Same as season 10. Same as this season.

3 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I was just starting to forgive Sam for season 4 by the end of season 7, and then we got season 8.

Which is why I generally contend that it was intentional. It would have been so easy to continue with Sam's character redemption - even just a couple of lines of dialogue would have helped do it - but Carver purposely didn't give Sam that.

Your story would have made more sense, but Carver wanted, I think, to show that saving family even if it hurt the world was, in the end, the "right" thing to do... and to do that first he wanted to show someone not saving the other brother and how that that was "wrong." And so Carver threw Sam under the bus to show that: "see how wrong Sam was to not choose his brother over the world? Look at how crappy Sam is being by not saving Dean. Now we all understand that they should save each other no matter what, right? Okay good. Of course there will have to be consequences, but in the end it'll all be worth it."

The "fakeout" at the beginning of season 9 was in a similar vein. Originally we thought maybe Dean saving Sam in such a drastic way was going to be "wrong," but then we were shown in the end "see it was the right thing to do! Everybody get it now?" And so Sam was brought on board too - except that he rose The Darkness, because we can't have Sam actually be right about something can we? *sarcasm.*

So in my opinion, that's why Sam was thrown under the bus... to show that Dean was right all along: risking everything for family IS the right thing to do.

[Airmid]

34 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It is a sad statement when the main reason a storyline is not as bad is because at least Sam didn't beat his brother half to death, kill an innocent nurse, and set Lucifer free, with the bonus of at least getting a little character growth, but unfortunately when it comes to being someone who loves Sam as a character, often that's the best that I can hope for.

I almost lean towards them shooting themselves in the foot with the end of season 5 because they had Sam go back to blood drinking in the finale. Yes, it was supposed to make him strong to fight Lucifer. At the same time, it was the very thing Lucifer was drinking by the boat load to keep Nick from combusting. It was the thing Lucifer had had inflicted on Sam to make him perfect and pliable for later use by said fallen angel later on. It is something that by consumption actually put Sam's welfare into jeopardy and probably the sanctity of his soul, yet he was consuming it again with little intestinal discomfort because script.

Why they didn't go the completely the opposite direction and have Sam undergo purification and burn out what was done to him in order to make it harder for Lucifer to dig his nails in during possession I'll never know. I mean, can you image pitching this idea to your family: "Hey guys, remember that substance that I was horribly addicted to and made me violent, rage filled, and maker of bad choices? Well, I totally think it's well worth it to go drink some more to fight the violent, rage filled, and maker of bad choices Lucifer!"

Yeah, you just keep on telling yourself that addict!Sam...

Eh, that's probably just me on that one, though.

40 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I disagree. For me, it can't be coincidence that almost every time the writers supposedly "accidentally" make Sam look bad, it usually means Dean looks better in comparison - the finale just being yet another example. Consider the "The Purge" speech... it came at just the perfect time when some sympathy for what Dean had done was needed, and then it set up the entire arc where Sam would be wrong and say "I lied."* Any sympathy for Sam built up earlier in the season with Sam thinking he was damaged again was ceremoniously dumped / shifted / whatever with Sam's speech, making it instead look like the problem was that Sam was cruel and just didn't appreciate his brother. I do not think this was unintentional, because it was exactly what was needed to make sure that Dean looked sympathetic in the situation. That Dean was shown to be almost completely right in the end, in that Sam would do the same thing, and oh, look Gadreel did do good and helped save the world... and he didn't really try to hurt Sam after all. See Sam doesn't think Gadreel was trying to be bad and even calls him a "friend"... My opinion: bullshit. In my opinion, the whole thing starting with the "The Purge" speech was a set up to turn things around and make what Dean did look better in comparison. There was no "unintentional" about it in my opinion or things would have been balanced out with Dean no being completely right about everything and Gadreel being presented as redeemed and 'good" in the end.

I don't think it's all intentional. Some of it, like Gadreel, may have been efforts to tone down some of Dean's rather terrible choices. Sam is a handy vehicle for that but they aren't good at balancing the edge of the sword so it cuts back into Sam instead. Dean just gets cut differently, and it isn't as visible but both suffer from the lack of keeping things on point. They use one brother to vindicate the other and don't do it well.

In some ways, it seems like the writers have everybody in a little box, all separated out and neatly contained and fail to really take into consideration what happens when all those little boxes get emptied out into one big one and all the parts start to interact with each other. Sam managing a life without Dean is fine. Dean fighting his way out of Purgatory to get to Sam is fine. Benny being a friend is fine. Throw all of that together without any backing or forethought and out comes the mess of season 8's front half. 

17 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I was just starting to forgive Sam for season 4 by the end of season 7, and then we got season 8.  

Personally, I think it would've made for much more compelling TV to have Dean fighting to survive in Purgatory paralleled with Sam searching for a way to get through to him, like maybe he could've tracked down a witch or a psychic to find out where Dean was, talk to Dean the way he talked to Bobby in Inside Man, and research ways to get him out.  The writers could've gone with there being a portal or Sam finding some way to open a portal into Purgatory again (I mean, he already knew Lovecraft found a way to do it because of what happened in season 6).  They could've coordinated Dean getting out that way, or if they wanted to make it more difficult and take longer, Dean couldn't have gotten out through the portal opened by the spell without bringing a whole lot of monsters with him, so then the idea of the human-only portal comes up (Cas's story could've stayed the same as in he chooses to stay behind), and once Dean is out of Purgatory, Sam and Dean go save Kevin together.  Or maybe they could've had Sam start off by saving Kevin, and his scenes of doing could've been mixed in with Dean's scenes in Purgatory.  Then at the end of the episode Kevin could say he heard Crowley say Dean was in Purgatory, and we get Sam doing what I suggested in finding a way to communicate with Dean and finding a way to get him back in the next episode.  Dean could've been back by the third episode, and they could've done something more interesting than the badly manufactured angst . . but the writers didn't do that, and instead, I was left having problems with Sam again. 

Pretty much this. I was doing better with Sam, especially in the first part of season 7. I mean, him keeping the Luci hallucinations away from his brother wasn't right but it made sense why he was keeping secrets. It was human and understandable. Never mentioning what happened to Sam at all directly after the confrontation with the eaters at the end of the season is just unforgivable to do to a character. There was so much they could have done with the whole thing that wouldn't have kept the brothers separated for more than one or two episodes at most.

Instead, up to the end of Torn and Frayed they essentially were separated by all the lies, and betrayal even when sharing screen time for most of the season at that point. At the mid-season break their entire relationship had been damaged severely and that's terrible to both. Sam, because it puts him in a poor light and Dean, because dealing with getting back to earth/dealing with pressing issues like Crowley and Cas should have been enough. 

[AwesomO4000]

8 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I almost lean towards them shooting themselves in the foot with the end of season 5 because they had Sam go back to blood drinking in the finale.

I think it was because the writers realized "uh oh" how are we going to have Sam say "yes" anyway once they find out that Lucifer knows about the portal? Or even have Sam say "yes" in general when it's a really risky idea? The blood-drinking was an add on thing they came up with - because we hadn't heard about it until Castiel brought it up - so that Sam would have to drink it and his judgement be impaired. That's what it looked like to me when Sam said "let's go." I could almost see the character shift and how the blood was affecting him. And boom, back came the overconfidence with it., and Sam said "yes," even though it was a bad idea.

That's my explanation anyway.

[Idahoforspn]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Whereas I saw none of this.

I saw a TON of it. However, most of it came from super fans who would never see anything Sam did as wrong. The mental gymnastics it took to put a 100% true on that speech were worthy of the Olympics IMO.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So with Gadreel "good" and doing more good than bad, Sam being saved on top of that, and Sam doing what Dean would do... my question is what exactly in that Purge speech were we supposed to have seen as 100% the truth? 

We were supposed to agree that Dean was weak and selfish and only sacrificed when he didn`t pay the price and all that. And even if Sam later on said "I lied" and things like that, his attempts at saving Dean of course came from the right place and yadda yadda. Basically, Dean did it out of weakness and Sam only out of care and love. Those different standards are all over place.

That`s why I never ever thought any of the Purge speech was negated or taken back. It still stands exactly as it stands. 

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think it was because the writers realized "uh oh" how are we going to have Sam say "yes" anyway once they find out that Lucifer knows about the portal? Or even have Sam say "yes" in general when it's a really risky idea? The blood-drinking was an add on thing they came up with - because we hadn't heard about it until Castiel brought it up - so that Sam would have to drink it and his judgement be impaired. That's what it looked like to me when Sam said "let's go." I could almost see the character shift and how the blood was affecting him. And boom, back came the overconfidence with it., and Sam said "yes," even though it was a bad idea.

That's my explanation anyway.

I figured they went back to the demon blood because they were trying to tie up all the loose ends. Why did Yellow Eyes feed demon blood in the first place...Why'd the demons send Ruby to make sure he drank more blood and got more powerful...Oh yeah, the demon blood makes his body strong enough to hold Lucifer... . 

I think the pulled it out of their ass at the eleventh hour simply to explain why it was needed in the first place. Big fail for me, but it wasn't the only big fail they've ever done.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

It can easily be argued that Sam is the favored character and yet the writers unintentionally have him do things that causes him to be unsympathetic (at best) to a number of the fans. It all goes back to writers and showrunners who don't have a clue how people not sitting in the writers room will react to what they put on the screen.

I think it's interesting that the only fans I see postulating that Sam is the 'favored' character are the biggest DeanFans.  And one minute the writers are intentionally writing Dean badly (ie: the valiumDean complaints) but not intentionally writing Sam as an asshole - and it's the same writers!  smh...

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

I will never understand how people reconcile the belief that Sam is the obvious favorite of the writers with the belief that they are pretty consistently writing him as a total asshole.

Of course, I also find Sam a largely sympathetic character who has made major mistakes but has proven time and time again that he deeply loves his brother, so MMV. 

Amen!  

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam follows the Brits, that's not wrong, what was wrong was that he didn't try to lead them.  

I know everyone watches, hears, and filters through their own perspective, but really?  That's what you got?  nm - I'm just going to be in the corner shaking my head.  Maybe it will knock something loose and I'll finally learn to stay out of this thread.  Or is there a way to 'ignore' a whole thread so it doesn't show up on my dash?

[companionenvy]

I hate, hate, hate Sam's reaction to Benny, which I agree was petty and inconsistent with his character. But it really isn't like Sam corners the market on questionable decisions, or lying. He just pretty much never has those decisions validated in retrospect.

My case in point is the Amy Pond situation from Season 7. Amy was "guilty," yes. But at worst, she was guilty of succumbing to vigilantism under extreme duress. She was carefully picking out victims who were pretty nasty people -- not worthy of death, maybe, but not little old ladies or boy scouts. Even then, she was only doing it to save her son's life, and had promised to stop doing so in the future. Before that, she had spent years carefully establishing a life in which she could feed herself and her son without killing anybody at all. She had also once saved Sam's life even though it meant killing her own mother. So, I think Sam's decision to give her a second chance -- not a free pass to keep killing -- was totally reasonable, and in fact the right call. Obviously there was no guarantee that she wouldn't kill again if her son was once again in danger, just like there is frankly no guarantee that Sam isn't going to drink demon blood again one day and wind up killing another innocent while jonesing for a fix (to be clear, I don't think he will -- but there's a reason we never say that addicts are "cured"). But given all of the circumstances, I think letting her go falls under the category of reasonable risk.

What was Dean's response? When he found out that Sam had let her go, even when Sam explained his the history and mitigating factors and asked Dean to trust him, Dean lied to Sam, ignored his decision -- which, again, was IMO at least reasonable even if one could rationally have made another call -- and killed Amy over her pleas and promises, on the rationale that as a monster, she would inevitably kill again. This despite the fact that he had met monsters who chose not to kill innocents before, and would become best buds with a "reformed" vampire a season later. Not to mention the fact that he is the king of going to great lengths to save a loved one. Given how many posts we've seen charging Sam with being disrespectful of Dean's choices and taking a "my way or the highway" approach, I think it is worth remembering this incident.

And to cap it all off, later in the season Sam is made to totally invalidate his righteous anger over Dean's action and admit that he made the right call. Which, IMO, it wasn't, at all.

I also want to point out that Benny was not an innocent. He was a vampire who had spent years killing and feeding like any other vampire. But then he helped Dean, saved Cas, and promised to reform, so Dean decided to trust him even though there could be no guarantee he wouldn't kill again. While Sam was skeptical, and chose to go behind Dean's back and try to kill the monster. Sound familiar? Only in this case, Benny wound up being a hero and all around saint among vampires, so Sam was again totally wrong. 

I'm not saying any of this in the spirit of bashing Dean. Rather, I want to point out that Sam is by no means the only Winchester whose actions can sometimes be characterized as high-handed, hypocritical, deceptive, disrespectful, and downright wrong, the difference being that, as AwesomeO has pointed out, Dean usually winds up being validated in the long term, and Sam doesn't. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by companionenvy

[Airmid]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I figured they went back to the demon blood because they were trying to tie up all the loose ends. Why did Yellow Eyes feed demon blood in the first place...Why'd the demons send Ruby to make sure he drank more blood and got more powerful...Oh yeah, the demon blood makes his body strong enough to hold Lucifer... . 

I think the pulled it out of their ass at the eleventh hour simply to explain why it was needed in the first place. Big fail for me, but it wasn't the only big fail they've ever done.

Honestly, I would have thought the loose ends would have been tied up with Sam killing Lilith as the reason why all that was done. She needed to die so Sam was made strong enough to do it willingly.

Not that I don't agree with you, just it seems like the whole 'strong enough for Lucifer' thing was tacked on in season five due to them not seeming to really know how exactly things were going to end and the addition of the entire vessel idea. Kind of like, when filling one hole they did it with the dirt from another they were rapidly digging.

[CluelessDrifter]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I figured they went back to the demon blood because they were trying to tie up all the loose ends. Why did Yellow Eyes feed demon blood in the first place...Why'd the demons send Ruby to make sure he drank more blood and got more powerful...Oh yeah, the demon blood makes his body strong enough to hold Lucifer... . 

I think the pulled it out of their ass at the eleventh hour simply to explain why it was needed in the first place. Big fail for me, but it wasn't the only big fail they've ever done.

The only problem with that is that Azazel also gave demon blood to a lot of other people too, so it kind of makes the whole 'one true vessel' thing pointless if it was supposed to be a call back to that, and it also didn't make sense, because again . . . one true vessel, so why was there any need for Sam to drink demon blood the way Lucifer had to do with Nick, who wasn't his one true vessel.  They started the psy kids story line with Azazel making multiple generations of psy kids (remember Rosie's generation?).  Then they decided to kill the story line by having Sam's generation killed off to find the leader of Azazel's new demon army, and then they changed that, because Lilith rose as the new force who was going to lead them, and Dean died . . . there were a lot of writing problems in the first seasons and changes at the last minute, but for some reason it didn't matter as much, and everything more or less worked better than in later seasons.  

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I figured they went back to the demon blood because they were trying to tie up all the loose ends. Why did Yellow Eyes feed demon blood in the first place...Why'd the demons send Ruby to make sure he drank more blood and got more powerful...Oh yeah, the demon blood makes his body strong enough to hold Lucifer... . 

I think the pulled it out of their ass at the eleventh hour simply to explain why it was needed in the first place. Big fail for me, but it wasn't the only big fail they've ever done.

Ruby told him before Lucifer rose that he never needed the blood. So I was very unhappy that now Sam apparently needed to drink gallons of it from demon possessed bodies. And also, if they did the moral thing and got the blood from a meatsuit that was already dead as opposed to one living and  just possessed, would there even be blood still running through the veins. If the demons could keep the heart pumping and blood running, why did the meatsuits even die?Inquiring minds want to know.

[Idahoforspn]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think it's interesting that the only fans I see postulating that Sam is the 'favored' character are the biggest DeanFans.  

Yes I am a Dean fan. However, I am not happy about the atrocious writing for Sam either. My dream scripts, even as a confessed Dean girl, would involve TWO badass hero  hunters that we didn't have to argue which one the writers are screwing the worst.

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

We were supposed to agree that Dean was weak and selfish and only sacrificed when he didn`t pay the price and all that.

But that was proved wrong, too, because Dean was killed and got turned into a demon, the thing he had always been most afraid he would become. And so he did pay a price.

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And even if Sam later on said "I lied" and things like that, his attempts at saving Dean of course came from the right place and yadda yadda. Basically, Dean did it out of weakness and Sam only out of care and love. Those different standards are all over place.

If that's the case then why when Sam tried to save Dean, everyone told him not to, it was too dangerous and wrong, and then when he did save Dean anyway, it started the Darkness? That's not even including all of the "Sam was even worse than Dean as a demon" things the writers kept throwing at us to show us Sam was wrong.

I'm sorry, I just don't see the "different standards" showing Sam in the right. If anything Dean saves Sam = Gadreel helping to save the world : Sam saves Dean = Sam acting "worse" than a demon and causing an apocalypse would tend to show me the opposite in terms of different standards. Add on Dean saving Sam by killing Death = oh, yeah nothing bad and likely some good since the reaper that supposedly is pissed instead helps you save the world - again! Yay! And I'm really not seeing the evidence of what you are saying. To me it looks more like the opposite.

And how is any of that proving that the writers think Dean did it out of weakness and Sam did it only out of love? Wouldn't it make more sense to narratively reward the character the writers think is supposedly "doing right" not the one they think is "doing wrong?"

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That`s why I never ever thought any of the Purge speech was negated or taken back. It still stands exactly as it stands. 

If you ignore all of the things that happened in the second half of the season that proved that Sam was wrong, then sure...

11 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I hate, hate, hate Sam's reaction to Benny, which I agree was petty and inconsistent with his character. But it really isn't like Sam corners the market on questionable decisions, or lying. He just pretty much never has those decisions validated in retrospect.

Exactly.

And I think my examples above illustrate this point.  Sam does something similar to what Dean does - like save Dean at great costs - and his fallout is often so much larger compared to Dean's.

[gonzosgirrl]

Sam killed Emma.

 

:)