“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Diane]

7 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Except Sam has managed to hold on to his weapon enough to make ALL the kills the last half of the season....along with making ALL the plans, doing almost ALL the research, and comforting all the guest stars. Ohhh and now only he can fix the colt. I have always looked forward to each new episode of SPN and almost always watched live. SPN was the only show I watched live. For the first time, I will be recording the episode as Dabb has destroyed Dean's character so much I have no desire to sit through commercials just to watch the destruction. I am a Dean girl but I don't expect him to outshine Sam. I just want balanced writing. If I can't get that I am not going to bother watching live. 

We are going to just have to disagree, I don't think that Dabb has destroyed anything, much less Dean's character. I think the writing has been balanced but that it me. I do understand YMMV.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Diane said:

Neither of the 2 can hold on to a weapon, it's always been that way.

LOL - so true!  From The Real Ghostbusters (S5):

Quote

Hook Man: Ah yeah. Why in every fight scene, SAM and DEAN are having their gun knocked away by the bad guy? Why don't they keep it on some kind of bungee?

Chuck: I...yeah, I really don't know.

Also, FYI from Supernaturalwiki same page:

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In the DVD commentary for 4.03 In the Beginning, Kripke talks about how Sam and Dean always seem to be dropping their guns, knives etc... at crucial moments.

     Jared and Jensen always say to us like the joke is they always say to me and Bob, “Why don’t Sam and Dean have bungee cords on their wrists?” 
     For the amount of times that guns and knives are knocked out of their hands. Here’s a good game, count how many times Sam and Dean lose their weapon and the reason we do it is a really important blocking reason, they’d be stupid to walk in unarmed but we still have to put them in enough danger for the bad guy to monologue or to feel like they’re in danger before someone else unexpectedly walks in with the weapon that the other person dropped.

So it's not, nor has it ever been, just Dabb.

Edited May 4, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
really weird spacing in quote

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Except Sam has managed to hold on to his weapon enough to make ALL the kills the last half of the season....along with making ALL the plans, doing almost ALL the research, and comforting all the guest stars. Ohhh and now only he can fix the colt. I have always looked forward to each new episode of SPN and almost always watched live. SPN was the only show I watched live. For the first time, I will be recording the episode as Dabb has destroyed Dean's character so much I have no desire to sit through commercials just to watch the destruction. I am a Dean girl but I don't expect him to outshine Sam. I just want balanced writing. If I can't get that I am not going to bother watching live. 

+1

I can't say he's destroyed Dean, because Jensen always finds a way to let me see 'my' Dean, but it's not for lack of trying. Even what is arguably 'Dean's' best episode of the season, Regarding Dean, is so because of Jensen's performance more than any great writing. As far as 'big' kills, he got Hitler in what was one of the most ridiculous storylines of the series (IMO), and the sister witch in Regarding Dean, only by virtue of written instructions. I'm struggling to think of another... 

Dean is not just taking a back seat to Sam, but to pretty much every guest-of-the-week. So much of his history as a character is being demeaned: his connection with Michael (Sam uses the weapon instead); his death by Hellhound -- GOTW fends one off with a damn hatchet (which is subsequently killed by Sam). Things as silly as him not being able to scale a freaking fence (while Sam blithely walks around it), being a klutz, needing to be told to shower - in and of themselves are insignificant, but when it happens episode after episode, well, they get pretty hard to dismiss. 

[Aeryn13]

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So it's not, nor has it ever been, just Dabb.

How then did Dean ever managed to make badass kills in previous Seasons? And how did Sam?

How is Sam managing to do it NOW, basically five times in a row? And why has only Dean stopped managing to do it? It`s one thing to get knocked down in a fight scene here or there or lose your weapon, it`s quite another to do so in every scene it comes up. 

And yes, it is doubly obvious because Sam seems infallible with all the research and all the kills and all the speeches. Partnership? Haha, show, don`t piss on my leg and tell me it`s raining.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Take it for what it's worth, but this at least hints that it's not just 'us' (aka Dean!Girls) who see it. This is a tweet from yesterday.

(To clarify: my tweet, liked by Adam Rose, aka Aaron Bass)

Oh wow.  That's really interesting. Especially how Aaron was back for basically no reason in the show. That is quite interesting to me.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And why has only Dean stopped managing to do it? It`s one thing to get knocked down in a fight scene here or there or lose your weapon, it`s quite another to do so in every scene it comes up. 

Yup, and in the promo in addition to the stuff in the sneak peek,

Spoiler

We again see someone getting the upper hand of Dean.

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

How then did Dean ever managed to make badass kills in previous Seasons? And how did Sam?

How is Sam managing to do it NOW, basically five times in a row? And why has only Dean stopped managing to do it? It`s one thing to get knocked down in a fight scene here or there or lose your weapon, it`s quite another to do so in every scene it comes up. 

And yes, it is doubly obvious because Sam seems infallible with all the research and all the kills and all the speeches. Partnership? Haha, show, don`t piss on my leg and tell me it`s raining.

Agreed. The imbalance is glaring. And I've stopped buying that it's anything to do with Jensen having time off for the twins. Most of that was over the Christmas break - and I don't recall many, if any, sighting or tweets, etc., that had him off set for any great length of time. And even if he was, surely there is a better way, more true to his character, than having him MIA for entire acts, the most egregious being American Nightmare, where he just disappears for what had to be hours, leaving Sam to resolve the whole hunt (and that's after having heard Sam get taken down over the phone). So Dean just... goes for ice cream? FFS.

 

ETA: And the (worst) new writer, Davy Perez, when questioned about Sam killing the newest YED said that it was because Dean had killed one already. So he made it about balance, and then proceeded to ignore that ever after when it comes to the Dean side of the scale.

Edited May 4, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Demented Daisy]

Over the entire run of the show, Dean has about 60 solo kills (meaning Sam didn't kill in the episode), Sam has about 45 solo kills, and they both got a kill in about 30 episodes.

Numbers are approximate because I haven't done my "official" count of the second half of this season yet.

[catrox14]

Here is something from that wonderful Oral History of SPN in Variety. This was published  November 11, 2014, when Jensen already knew the demon!Dean arc was over and prior to the 200th airing.  Make of it what you will, but I tend to read that as acknowledgment from Jensen that the story has been and will always be about Sam. 

http://variety.com/2014/tv/spotlight/supernatural-oral-history-200-episodes-ackles-padalecki-kripke-1201352537/

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Ackles: If you look back at the majority of series, it really hinges on Sam’s character. That’s the way it was originally intended, that’s the way it serves the story best, but every now and again the spotlight got flipped and turned on Dean, and I think we’re seeing this again with Mark of Cain. That was part of the setup for just very dark and troubled Dean.

Season nine was one of the more difficult seasons that I personally had to deal with, and it was because of not just the weight of the storyline, but because it was so Dean-centric. I was on set pretty much the whole time while everybody else was enjoying their vacation. It was just a lot of weight and a lot of darkness in my world last year, but we got through it and I think it made for some good story and I think it made for a good setup of where we’re going this year… I really enjoyed the twist at the end of last season when we think we lost Dean yet again and lo and behold, an unlikely character comes in and brings him back to life. So I have to give it to Carver on that one, when I read it I was shaking my head with very happy approval, because I knew that was now another massive situation that Sam and Dean are going to have to deal with. And how they [were] going to get out of it, I was anxious to see.

[Aeryn13]

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Numbers are approximate because I haven't done my "official" count of the second half of this season yet.

Well, Dean`s stats should be easy. Sam could have made up the difference to 60 by now.

[Idahoforspn]

I felt from the beginning that Jensen's twins were being used as an excuse for bad writing.

[Demented Daisy]

15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, Dean`s stats should be easy. Sam could have made up the difference to 60 by now.

Only possible if Sam got a kill in every episode from First Blood on and Dean got zero.

[Aeryn13]

If Regarding Dean is included, then yes, Dean gets 1 kill in the back half of the Season. As for Sam, I`m not sure if multiple kills in one ep award one kill point or several? Anyways, he is far in the lead and pretty much all big kills, no small fries.

And of course there will be Season 13 where I predict 23 to 0 in Sam`s favour. Well, 17 to 0, have to leave a couple for guest stars.   

Edited May 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Idahoforspn]

I realize that Jensen and Jared have negotiated more time off and I could still love and enjoy my show if:

1) Their onscreen time was central and important to the story line. I am tired of them taking the backseat to everyone else. 

2) Dean was written as just as important as Sam. He was supposedly promoted to co-lead clear back in season 2.

Unfortunately, I don't see either of those things happening.

[Diane]

39 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Over the entire run of the show, Dean has about 60 solo kills (meaning Sam didn't kill in the episode), Sam has about 45 solo kills, and they both got a kill in about 30 episodes.

Numbers are approximate because I haven't done my "official" count of the second half of this season yet.

Thank you for the stats and the good reminder.

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

And I really don`t know why people think the pendulum will ever swing back. Like EVER for the duration of the show.

Because a) the alternative is assuming that Dabb and the other writers have a self-defeating animus against one of their two leads and b) it has in the past. Some people have cited Dean being relegated to "cheerleader" in the back half of season eight, but that came after a first half of the season that was full of Dean being a bad-ass in purgatory, and after season seven ended with Dean getting the big kill (season eight, I'll note once again, ended with Sam NOT fulfilling his hero's arc with the trials). 

With all due respect to Jensen, I simply don't agree that this show has been Sam-centric since season two at the latest. There are plenty of arcs in which we've been seeing things mostly from Dean's POV, and Dean gets his fair share (until this season, IMO, more than his fair share) of big kills. While I haven't gone back and counted, my gut is there have also been at least as many Dean-centric episodes as Sam-centric ones (in this category, I'm putting episodes like What is and What Should never be for Dean and Mystery Spot for Sam). 

[Demented Daisy]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

As for Sam, I`m not sure if multiple kills in one ep award one kill point or several? 

Just one -- points are by episode, not by kill.  If it were by kill, Dean would be even more in the lead because of his time in Purgatory and MoC Dean.

7 minutes ago, Diane said:

Thank you for the stats and the good reminder.

You are most welcome.  :-)

[Aeryn13]

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Because a) the alternative is assuming that Dabb and the other writers have a self-defeating animus against one of their two leads and b) it has in the past. 

Well, in the past Dabb wasn`t showrunner. And thing have never been as bad as they are now. Which is ironic because I hated Nanny!Kitchen!Servant!Dean in the back half of Season 8 but he could occasionally still hunt and kept some of his skills and positive traits. That isn`t the case anymore. Anything has been transferred to Sam, the one man hunting unit. Like what, they`ll give anything back to Dean? Allow him to shine in his previous areas of expertise? I don`t think so. 

[companionenvy]

Well, Dabb was also the showrunner when "The One You've Been Waiting for" and "Regarding Dean" aired. So even if you were 100% correct in your assumptions of bias, there is no reason to think Dean is never going to get another win or good moment. Even in episodes in which Dean hasn't gotten a main kill, he's had some clear demonstrations of competence and intelligence -- Dean and Sam were highly effective in evading and neutralizing the soldiers in First Blood, Dean was perfectly capable in "Stuck in the Middle With You," even though Sam got the ultimate kill; he figured out that Mick had killed the werewolf in "Ladies Drink Free," and in "Family Feud," he both correctly identified the culprit as a ghost (Sam thinks it is a witch) and made the connection between the ship and Crowley's son. Although it happens off-screen, we also have the gore-covered, bat wielding Dean at the beginning of "Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell," clearly fresh off a hunt in which he took the lead. So, I think the "Dean is being portrayed as a total incompetent" claim is drastically overblown - the only episode where I think Dean was really ineffective as a hunter was "The Memory Remains."

If, by mid season 13, we're still in a pattern in which Sam is getting the great majority of kills and taking the lead on plans, I'll concede your point. But as of now, we've basically got a run of eight episodes that have been more favorable to Sam in the hunting department -- and, of course, Sam hasn't been the hero in all of those episodes, by any means. He got the big kill, by my count, in four of them. If things were totally equal, he should have had two of them. Since there is no reason to expect total equality in a given run of episodes, it shouldn't be unusual for him to have gotten three of them. So basically, we're talking about a disparity that could have easily been "corrected" if Dean had been the one to, say, kill the hellhound. And the episode before those last eight was the Dean-centric, "Regarding Dean." 

I'll wait for DementedDaisy to figure out how the brothers stack up in the plans department, as I do think Sam has emerged as the more consistent researcher/planner in a way that wasn't true in earlier seasons -- which, as I said above, I attribute to lazy writers defaulting to "Sam is the research guy." But my sense is that that hasn't been overwhelmingly disproportionate either -- Dean, as I said earlier, has had some smart moments this season, and I think despite Sam getting more kills, Dean has also emerged in a number of situations as the clear leader of the brothers, shown in episodes like First Blood.

Plus, I disagree that the Mary arc belongs equally to Sam and Dean. Mary was brought back as a "gift" for Dean. He is clearly struggling far more with her return than Sam, whose isn't shown to be experiencing as much of  the hurt and confusion he, too, could legitimately be feeling. Dean is the one for whom Mary has always been the more significant presence; he's the one who has a picture of her in his drawer; he's the one whose heaven involves memories of her; he's the one who is generally calling her (Sam usually asks Dean if he's heard from mom lately), and he's the one, this season, that finally asked her to leave the bunker because of his sense of betrayal. 

[Aeryn13]

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If, by mid season 13, we're still in a pattern in which Sam is getting the great majority of kills and taking the lead on plans, I'll concede your point. 

At that point I`ll consider Dean effectively killed off the show, no matter if Jensen is technically still on call or not.

Quote

Well, Dabb was also the showrunner when "The One You've Been Waiting for" and "Regarding Dean" aired.

I think Meredith Glynn and probably Steve Yockey now have been called to heel. Of course with Perez it was never necessary. 

Maybe she was allowed "Regarding Dean" as a last hurrah for the character. Because since then he is systemically getting dismantled. 

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Although it happens off-screen, we also have the gore-covered, bat wielding Dean at the beginning of "Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell," clearly fresh off a hunt in which he took the lead. 

That scene adds insult to injury because it doesn`t show badassery but turns the character into a slime-covered joke. To me it`s the equivalent of me saying I`m thirsty and someone pissing in my face in response. Yes, technically they gave me fluids. In reality, they are an asshole. This is that scene in my eyes.  

Quote

the only episode where I think Dean was really ineffective as a hunter was "The Memory Remains."

And the episode with Eileen and last week`s? I can`t remember him being effective in those either. In 14 and 15 he used to be written out of the action entirely, as in he only arrived after Sam finished the hunt. And in eps 17-19, he was there but painfully incompetent. Don`t know which makes the character look worse. Probably the latter.  

[gonzosgirrl]

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So basically, we're talking about a disparity that could have easily been "corrected" if Dean had been the one to, say, kill the hellhound.

Except, it wasn't, and he didn't.

Quote

Mary was brought back as a "gift" for Dean. He is clearly struggling far more with her return than Sam, whose isn't shown to be experiencing as much of  the hurt and confusion he, too, could legitimately be feeling.

Worst. Gift. Ever. A gift certificate to Biggersons would've been better. Or, you know, a good bottle of Scotch.  As for him struggling with her return, each and every time he's demonstrated that struggle, he was told/shown how he was wrong to have his feelings and made (written) to apologize for them. And Dabb has already gone out of his way to assert that Dean won't be dwelling on being right about the BMoL, so there won't even be that validation.

He's doing a fine job of driving the car though, and that Colt was nice and clean before he had it taken from him.

Edited May 4, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[RulerofallIsurvey]

42 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, in the past Dabb wasn`t showrunner. And thing have never been as bad as they are now.

You mean for your favorite character.  Go back and watch most of S5 and S6 - heavily in favor of Dean.  If I'd had the same attitude about Sam, I never would have kept watching.  Whatever.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Go back and watch most of S5 and S6 - heavily in favor of Dean. 

The first half of Season 6 belonged to Sam`s soulless storyline and Sera Gamble fully embraced her inner Samgirl to give him plenty badass moments while Dean was called rusty and saved all over the place. Dean got a bit better material in the second half but Sam was still there. And he got the Season 6 Finale.

Season 5 had multiple "badass Sam" moments and biggest flashy hero win any character on this show ever got went to him in the Finale.

If those Seasons were heavily in favour of Dean, I don`t know what not being in favour would look like for the character. Spending a Season licking the floor maybe. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The first half of Season 6 belonged to Sam`s soulless storyline and Sera Gamble fully embraced her inner Samgirl to give him plenty badass moments while Dean was called rusty and saved all over the place.

LOL!  Yeah - Sam was fucking SOULLESS.  It doesn't count as SAM being badass, any more than DemonDean counts as DEAN being badass.  Nice try, but I'm not buying the dual criteria here.  

[Diane]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think Meredith Glynn and probably Steve Yockey now have been called to heel. Of course with Perez it was never necessary. 

 

There absolutely no proof of that, I find that hard to believe.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 It doesn't count as SAM being badass, any more than DemonDean counts as DEAN being badass.  Nice try, but I'm not buying the dual criteria here.  

Why is it dual criteria? I certainly count Demon!Dean and MOC!Dean as Dean being badass. Demon!Dean giving a beatdown to Cole counts as a badass Dean moment 100 % for me. I like supernatural storylines so characters being possessed or "other" are great storylines for a character. If Dean was possessed for half a Season, did badass things and effectively not onscreen as himself, I`d say "hallelujah" and rejoice at having a great storyline. Those are the things that I LIKE.

So I`m totally consistent in counting Soulless!Sam. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why is it dual criteria? I certainly count Demon!Dean and MOC!Dean as Dean being badass. Demon!Dean giving a beatdown to Cole counts as a badass Dean moment 100 % for me. I like supernatural storylines so characters being possessed or "other" are great storylines for a character. If Dean was possessed for half a Season, did badass things and effectively not onscreen as himself, I`d say "hallelujah" and rejoice at having a great storyline. Those are the things that I LIKE.

So I`m totally consistent in counting Soulless!Sam. 

Personally, I've always felt that both Demon MoC Dean and Soulless Sam were the essence of each of the characters when conscience and inhibitions were removed. Not pretty or flattering, but 'real'. So yes, I'd count both as 'real' Dean & Sam moments - as opposed to say, Meg!Sam or SoulEater!Dean, when they were possessed by other entities.

 

(edited to change Demon to MoC)

Edited May 4, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why is it dual criteria?

Because you are wanting regular Dean to be as badass as DemonDean and MOCDean - and I just don't see how that could happen.  

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I certainly count Demon!Dean and MOC!Dean as Dean being badass.

Fine then.  If you disagree about S5 and S6 - because of SoulessSam, change what I said to S9 and S10 when Dean had the Mark of Cain.  Or are you going to try to argue those seasons weren't heavily in favor of Dean?  Once again, if I used the same criteria to keep watching the show as many on here seem to be using, I'd have quit back then.  

[ILoveReading]

I feel like something is missing in this pic

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

I feel like something is missing in this pic

This is typical for the show now. They talk about the Winchesters but only show the one they care about. Just more ignore Dean.

[Aeryn13]

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Because you are wanting regular Dean to be as badass as DemonDean and MOCDean 

I would happily take recent Dean to be as badass as Season 1 and 2 Dean. Which were regular Dean so those should count. I`d at least like the character back to the skillset when he started the show. Which was lightyears more capable than he is now.

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change what I said to S9 and S10 when Dean had the Mark of Cain.  Or are you going to try to argue those seasons weren't heavily in favor of Dean?

Season 9 only starts with First Born, of course, so half the Season, yes, that goes to Dean. Season 10, yes again, that goes to Dean in terms of story and badassery. But I still don`t remember Dean suddenly accumulating all of Sam`s skills during it. Sam didn`t suddenly stop researching so Dean could do it all. Sam didn`t stop getting smart-moments so Dean could get them all. In short, Dean got something nice in Season 10 but he still didn`t play both his AND Sam`s part.

Right now Sam fills both Sam and Dean`s role and Dean is noone. That has IMO never before happened on the show, not for either brother. 

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I feel like something is missing in this pic

It`s pretty accurate, though. Sam now IS "the Winchesters". Plural.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Because you are wanting regular Dean to be as badass as DemonDean and MOCDean - and I just don't see how that could happen.  

Fine then.  If you disagree about S5 and S6 - because of SoulessSam, change what I said to S9 and S10 when Dean had the Mark of Cain.  Or are you going to try to argue those seasons weren't heavily in favor of Dean?  Once again, if I used the same criteria to keep watching the show as many on here seem to be using, I'd have quit back then.  

Season 9, yes, totally. Even Jensen agreed. But Season 10? After Soul Survivor, it may have been about removing the Mark, but it totally became about Sam's mission to do so, much like it was Dean's mission to restore Sam's soul in S6, whether he wanted it or not. The difference being (for me, of course) is that we got to see Sam's soulless actions throughout his soulless time, even in flashbacks (Unforgiven). With MoC Dean we were told time and again (by Sam, by Cas) how Dean was 'in trouble' and deteriorating, and yet were only rarely allowed to see it.

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Season 9 only starts with First Born, of course, so half the Season, yes, that goes to Dean. Season 10, yes again, that goes to Dean in terms of story and badassery. But I still don`t remember Dean suddenly accumulating all of Sam`s skills during it. Sam didn`t suddenly stop researching so Dean could do it all. Sam didn`t stop getting smart-moments so Dean could get them all. In short, Dean got something nice in Season 10 but he still didn`t play both his AND Sam`s part.

Right now Sam fills both Sam and Dean`s role and Dean is noone. That has IMO never before happened on the show, not for either brother. 

Yes, exactly this.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Season 9 only starts with First Born, of course, so half the Season, yes, that goes to Dean. Season 10, yes again, that goes to Dean in terms of story and badassery.

Exactly my point.  And once again, if I were using the same criteria (as far as kills/badassery/whatnot) that is getting bandied about here, I would have quit watching, because Sam was very much in the background then, IMO.  

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

much like it was Dean's mission to restore Sam's soul in S6, whether he wanted it or not.

I'm still getting conflicting arguments.  On the one hand, I hear "Dean didn't have a story in S6: it was all about Sam" but now it's "It was Dean's mission to restore Sam's soul."  So which is it?  Did Dean have a story or not in S6?  And doesn't it depend on what each person considers the story?  And isn't that true for S12 as well?

[Aeryn13]

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And once again, if I were using the same criteria (as far as kills/badassery/whatnot) that is getting bandied about here, I would have quit watching, because Sam was very much in the background then, IMO.  

I don`t think either brother ever has been so far in the background as Dean is now. Not Sam and not Dean. This is a first IMO. If in previous Season either brother had akin to a guest role in a respective Season, this feels more like a cameo now.  

[catrox14]

I think Badass just means tough, hard core fighter.

Just for fun, I looked for the definition of "badass" according to Dictionary. com .

Quote

adjective, Also, badass

1. (of a person) difficult to deal with; mean-tempered; touchy.

2. distinctively tough or powerful; so exceptional as to be intimidating.

Google's dictionary has it as

Quote

bad·ass

ˈbadˌas/

North American informal

noun

noun: badass; plural noun: badasses; noun: bad-ass; plural noun: bad-asses

1. a tough, uncompromising, or intimidating person.

"one of them is a real badass, the other's pretty friendly"

a formidably impressive person.

"she is so wonderful, so sweet, so rad, so amazing; she's a badass"

adjective

adjective: badass; adjective: bad-ass

1. tough, uncompromising, or intimidating.

"a badass demeanor"

formidable; excellent.

"this was one badass camera"

 

Heh, I guess that applies to Soulless!Sam, demon!Dean and MoC!Dean and regular!Sam and regular!Dean.

So really though badass is in the eye of the beerholder. IMO

[Katy M]

I don't mind the occasional episode where the boys take a back seat. After all, there are othr stories that can be told and J and J need some down time.  But, I agree that they are just too far back this season. It's adding to my dislike of Cas, even though he hasn't really been around all that much either, so I guess I'm not sure who to dislike on that score, LOL.  But, for me, this has always been a show about two brothers and their relationship.  It's why I watch.  I'm actually not into vampire and ghosts and demons, etc.  And, while I'm glad they're getting along for once, and I don't need them to be fighting to enjoy them, and have never cared which brother is more front and center as long as they're working together, there's just too much going on this season t see that.

[catrox14]

47 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

This is typical for the show now. They talk about the Winchesters but only show the one they care about. Just more ignore Dean.

Maybe another one will come along in a  couple of hours with just Dean?

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't mind the occasional episode where the boys take a back seat. After all, there are othr stories that can be told and J and J need some down time.  But, I agree that they are just too far back this season. It's adding to my dislike of Cas, even though he hasn't really been around all that much either, so I guess I'm not sure who to dislike on that score, LOL.  But, for me, this has always been a show about two brothers and their relationship.  It's why I watch.  I'm actually not into vampire and ghosts and demons, etc.  And, while I'm glad they're getting along for once, and I don't need them to be fighting to enjoy them, and have never cared which brother is more front and center as long as they're working together, there's just too much going on this season t see that.

I am choosing to dislike the writers and the showrunners. Blame the author in this case. LOL. It's what I did to not carry my s8/s9 grudge against Sam into S10 and beyond.  LOL

Edited May 4, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think either brother ever has been so far in the background as Dean is now. Not Sam and not Dean. This is a first IMO. If in previous Season either brother had akin to a guest role in a respective Season, this feels more like a cameo now.  

I disagree.  And I think it only seems worse now for certain viewers because it's Dean, not Sam.  If it were to completely turn around and Dean was all bad-ass again and fixing everything and researching everything, I bet there wouldn't be one complaint about the lack of Sam in the episode run.  Like I said, if I used the same criteria to judge the show in previously seasons that heavily favored Dean over Sam, I'd have quit watching then.

Edited May 4, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
not everyone feels the same. And that's okay.

[Idahoforspn]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe another one will come along in a  couple of hours with just Dean?

That would be nice.I am sorry. I am just kind of bitter today. The clip where Dean is asking Sam to fix the colt kind of sent me over the edge.   "Breathe deep.... breathe deep....calm down...I'm trying. Really I am."

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

That would be nice.I am sorry. I am just kind of bitter today. The clip where Dean is asking Sam to fix the colt kind of sent me over the edge.   "Breathe deep.... breathe deep....calm down...I'm trying. Really I am."

I believe me, I had a pretty good laugh and thought 'that's about right'  when I saw the picture of Sam by himself. That said, I'm trying to be  a little more hopeful that ALL the PR isn't going to be that way. I know it's confusing because I'm still pretty angry about that sneak peek.

[companionenvy]

I think what is emerging here is that we have different criteria for what counts as a substantial or worthy storyline. Presumably, the writers do as well. This is another argument that there isn't a systematic campaign against Dean. Frankly, the idea that Dabb is forcing Glynn or other writers to make Dean look bad strikes me as incredibly far-fetched. 

Determining whether Dean's current period of relative lack of attention -- and I do mean relative -- is worse than similar periods in which Sam has taken a backseat seems to me to be hairsplitting. There are plenty of times when Sam has looked bad, or been effectively out of the action for certain periods of time. 

What strikes me as well is that complaints about Dean's screen time and treatment didn't just begin at mid-season. Many of the same voices now complaining that Dean is being completely sidelined, that he barely has to be on the show, etc are voices who have complained about Dean's "cheerleader" role, about Swan Song, about "Red Meat," and so on. In fact, the same complaints seem to come up any time Sam gets a big kill or a storyline. This doesn't suggest to me a desire for relative parity. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And I think it only seems worse now for certain viewers because it's Dean, not Sam.  If it were to completely turn around and Dean was all bad-ass again and fixing everything and researching everything, I bet there wouldn't be one complaint about the lack of Sam in the episode run.

I think it would be the other way around actually. And it would be considered unacceptable and wholly unequal if it were Sam. However, I don`t think the reverse would ever happen. Even IF they ever allow Dean to be Dean again, they wouldn`t let him be Dean and Sam at the same time.  

Quote

. Many of the same voices now complaining that Dean is being completely sidelined, that he barely has to be on the show, etc are voices who have complained about Dean's "cheerleader" role, about Swan Song, about "Red Meat," and so on. In fact, the same complaints seem to come up any time Sam gets a big kill or a storyline. This doesn't suggest to me a desire for relative parity. 

Well, 5.22 certainly wasn`t a Dean-episode. And for the Finale of basically the first five year arc, that sucked. Sam got his storyline capped off with a big hero moment, Dean`s story - which I had liked - got thrown out. That wasn`t any kind of parity either.

Red Meat was a Super Sue episode. But it wasn`t on repeat 8 times in a row. And at least in Season 11 Dean still had something, namely the Amara storyline. That`s far more than I can say now.

And what would have been so horrible if Dean had gotten the Hellhound kill? Or the Alpha Vamp? Or at least the Goat God? Either one of those, was that truly too much to ask?

Or Dean coming up with the Nephilim strategy? Or Dean fixing a relevant weapon? Or Dean getting to do the inspirational Mick speech?

Is it seriously too much to ask for the character to get to shine in one thing he used to be good at?     

Edited May 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[CluelessDrifter]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm still getting conflicting arguments.  On the one hand, I hear "Dean didn't have a story in S6: it was all about Sam" but now it's "It was Dean's mission to restore Sam's soul."  So which is it?  Did Dean have a story or not in S6?  And doesn't it depend on what each person considers the story?  And isn't that true for S12 as well?

They can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what they are saying is that Soulless Sam was the focal point, and Dean reacted to it/tried to fix it in much the same way Dean with the MoC in Season 10 was the focal point, and Sam reacted to it.  Those were their respective story lines, and when one is the focal point, the other generally gets more kills or excels in some other way in order to balance it.  The reason people are focusing on the back half of season 9 and season 10 is because for seasons 1-2, 4-9 1/2, the focal point was Sam.  Season 9 1/2-10 was focused on Dean.  Season 3 - I'd actually say that getting Dean out of his deal was the focal point for that season.  

Anyway, this season, you don't really have Sam being the focal point of the arc unless you want to say that he's excelling under the BMoL, and you don't have Dean reacting to it unless you want to say that he isn't excelling under the BMoL, and saying either thing is what's happening (like I tend to think) would be pushing it, because neither thing has been stated on the show.  While Dean may have gotten more kills in the past, he was rarely the focal point of the arc, so it balanced out.  This year, that isn't happening.  For once, neither brother is pushing the story forward AND the story isn't directly related to either one, but with Sam getting more kills for no reason, i.e. there is no story arc revolving around Dean to counter it, it does come across as unbalanced IMO.  

[companionenvy]

7 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

1-2, 4-9 1/2, the focal point was Sam

That is highly debatable. Not everyone considers "Character X is supernaturally affected by something" to be the primary criteria for being a focal point. 

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

They can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what they are saying is that Soulless Sam was the focal point, and Dean reacted to it/tried to fix it in much the same way Dean with the MoC in Season 10 was the focal point, and Sam reacted to it.  Those were their respective story lines, and when one is the focal point, the other generally gets more kills or excels in some other way in order to balance it.  The reason people are focusing on the back half of season 9 and season 10 is because for seasons 1-2, 4-9 1/2, the focal point was Sam.  Season 9 1/2-10 was focused on Dean.  Season 3 - I'd actually say that getting Dean out of his deal was the focal point for that season.  

Anyway, this season, you don't really have Sam being the focal point of the arc unless you want to say that he's excelling under the BMoL, and you don't have Dean reacting to it unless you want to say that he isn't excelling under the BMoL, and saying either thing is what's happening (like I tend to think) would be pushing it, because neither thing has been stated on the show.  While Dean may have gotten more kills in the past, he was rarely the focal point of the arc, so it balanced out.  This year, that isn't happening.  For once, neither brother is pushing the story forward AND the story isn't directly related to either one, but with Sam getting more kills for no reason, i.e. there is no story arc revolving around Dean to counter it, it does come across as unbalanced IMO.  

The bolded, exactly.

For the record, I don't think either brother is the focal point of this season. Sidebar: I honestly don't know what that focal point is actually supposed to be - and figuring that out in episode 20-23 does not a satisfying season make. But I digress... my sole point in these posts is that Dean as a character is getting screwed over, to the point where it's feeling almost vindictive (to me).

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I think what is emerging here is that we have different criteria for what counts as a substantial or worthy storyline. Presumably, the writers do as well. This is another argument that there isn't a systematic campaign against Dean. Frankly, the idea that Dabb is forcing Glynn or other writers to make Dean look bad strikes me as incredibly far-fetched. 

Determining whether Dean's current period of relative lack of attention -- and I do mean relative -- is worse than similar periods in which Sam has taken a backseat seems to me to be hairsplitting. There are plenty of times when Sam has looked bad, or been effectively out of the action for certain periods of time. 

What strikes me as well is that complaints about Dean's screen time and treatment didn't just begin at mid-season. Many of the same voices now complaining that Dean is being completely sidelined, that he barely has to be on the show, etc are voices who have complained about Dean's "cheerleader" role, about Swan Song, about "Red Meat," and so on. In fact, the same complaints seem to come up any time Sam gets a big kill or a storyline. This doesn't suggest to me a desire for relative parity. 

Exactly.  Couldn't agree more.

Edited May 4, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[Diane]

24 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I think what is emerging here is that we have different criteria for what counts as a substantial or worthy storyline. Presumably, the writers do as well. This is another argument that there isn't a systematic campaign against Dean. Frankly, the idea that Dabb is forcing Glynn or other writers to make Dean look bad strikes me as incredibly far-fetched. 

Determining whether Dean's current period of relative lack of attention -- and I do mean relative -- is worse than similar periods in which Sam has taken a backseat seems to me to be hairsplitting. There are plenty of times when Sam has looked bad, or been effectively out of the action for certain periods of time. 

What strikes me as well is that complaints about Dean's screen time and treatment didn't just begin at mid-season. Many of the same voices now complaining that Dean is being completely sidelined, that he barely has to be on the show, etc are voices who have complained about Dean's "cheerleader" role, about Swan Song, about "Red Meat," and so on. In fact, the same complaints seem to come up any time Sam gets a big kill or a storyline. This doesn't suggest to me a desire for relative parity. 

 

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Exactly.  Couldn't agree more.

Exactly.

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

have complained about Dean's "cheerleader" role, about Swan Song, about "Red Meat,"

Did people complain about that for Red Meat?  That really does prove that it's all how you look at it, because I love Red Meat, and honestly thought of it as a more Dean-centric episode. Sam was asleep for half of it, after all.  Then again, I also see In the Beginning as Dean-centric since Sam only walks out the door and says "definitely," but I've been told in no uncertain terms a dozen times, at least, that I'm wrong about that. It's Sam-centric.  As is The End, which I also so as more Dean-centric.  So, what do I know?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

because I love Red Meat, and honestly thought of it as a more Dean-centric episode. Sam was asleep for half of it, after all. 

Dean came across as weak and pathetic in RM, no matter the amount of screentime. Meanwhile, Sam jumped up from his deathbed, killed werewolves and even saved the super-pathetic Dean. Yikes.

Quote

hen again, I also see In the Beginning as Dean-centric since Sam only walks out the door and says "definitely," but I've been told in no uncertain terms a dozen times, at least, that I'm wrong about that. It's Sam-centric.  As is The End, which I also so as more Dean-centric.  

While In the Beginning could be seen as nominally about Sam`s mytharc origin story, even I wouldn`t go that far. It is a Dean-episode. Ditto for the End. 

However, 5.22 is also a clear-cut Sam episode. Same for me for Red Meat. I can`t remember if Dean got a Dean-centric ep last Season. This Season it was Regarding Dean.

And yes, Dean used to be more character-centered episodes in earlier Seasons, he used to shine more in the MOTW because Sam had the mytharc ones. The latter were more important but fewer in numbers. So there was some balance there, everyone had something. 

[Idahoforspn]

9 minutes ago, Diane said:

 

Exactly.

I have always said that even when Sam is the focus, he isn't always presented as sympathetic. Part of the time it's the writing and some of the time it is how Jared chooses to say the lines. Being the favorite of the showrunners isn't necessarily a good thing with SPN.