Happy Harpy April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, screamin said: no matter HOW the coming apocalypse changes the face of the world. This is where I disagree. An invasion of zombies can completely change the people's perception on what a true monster is. Like at the Black Water, Tyrion could save the day and this time, be given credit. There's a passage in the original outline about how previous alliances don't count anymore and people fight the WW together, and since it's where the show is going with Theon and Jaime back or possibly welcome into the fold, I don't think that Tyrion's previous misdeeds, imaginary (Joffrey's death) or real will count anymore, then. If Dany/Jon win (thanks to dragons in particular) I think the people should even feel quite thankful that he allied with a foreign army. I personally see Tyrion more as the prime minister type. But if the Starkgaryens leave Westeros for reason X or Y, I don't discard the possibility of Tyrion ruling, one way or another, at the head of a more democratic government (not a republic, much too early imo). Edited April 10, 2018 by Happy Harpy 1 Link to comment
anamika April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 4 hours ago, screamin said: Re: Sansa surviving, while I don't see her as THE queen, I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of possibility to see her as A queen. In the books, LF is setting her up for the QITN position and I think something will come of that. What do you think will happen with Sansa in the next 2 books with regard to the North, taking into account Jon and Robb's will, Arya and Bran possibly re-entering the fray and Manderly backing Rickon? Link to comment
whateverdgaf April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 1 hour ago, anamika said: What do you think will happen with Sansa in the next 2 books with regard to the North, taking into account Jon and Robb's will, Arya and Bran possibly re-entering the fray and Manderly backing Rickon? I suspect the reason the show cut the will was because in the end it had little effect on the plot. Sansa was only disinherited because of her marriage to Tyrion, which could become a nonissue such as in the show. And even if she does not become a queen, considering how we saw the duties we saw her taking on in running Winterfell I think there is a very good chance she would end up in a position of power, such as an advisor. Rather similar to the role she now holds for Jon. Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 (edited) Dinklage on the post-Field of Fire: "He's wondering what he's done. Is this the right way to do it?" Dinklage on the Tarlys: "What Daenerys does in this scene is not so good." The phrase "Second Thoughts" flashes across the screen. Mylod: "Tyrion sees that happen, and he's horrified. And he wonders is Daenerys like her father the Mad King or is she someone that he can really rally behind...the two of them are afraid that they're backing the wrong person." Dinklage: "Tyrion's relationship with Daenerys is very fragile." Tyrion probably isn't the third "WTF moment." If that was the case why would they so openly discuss that his support is wavering like this? Even in earlier scenes, Dany appears to consider him betraying her; she accuses him of it because of his battle losses. A betrayal (actually a "treason"...there is a difference) is someone she would never expect; even she knows this herself (books). Edited April 10, 2018 by Colorful Mess 2 Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 40 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said: Rather similar to the role she now holds for Jon. I can see her as a steward too. Either a steward for Bran as Lord of Winterfell or for Jon as King in the North. Managing affairs of state/manor in their stead. 2 Link to comment
Eyes High April 10, 2018 Author Share April 10, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, screamin said: I can't imagine a Westeros that would accept kinslayer Tyrion with his all his original drawbacks (dwarf, no royal blood) and many new ones (mutilated, kinslayer, allying with foreigners to invade his own country, incurably self-sabotaging) as king, no matter HOW the coming apocalypse changes the face of the world. Re: Sansa surviving, while I don't see her as THE queen, I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of possibility to see her as A queen. In the books, LF is setting her up for the QITN position and I think something will come of that. LF wants to set her up as QITN, but the only thing the books have telegraphed is that his plan will fail spectacularly, much as it did in the show. That will be the case even if he succeeds in marrying Sansa off to Harry the Heir, which is doubtful since by his own admission that can’t happen until Tyrion is dead. Sansa won’t be any sort of endgame queen because GRRM originally planned the ending with a dead Sansa in mind and is apparently sticking to that ending. One thing that’s been giving me pause is that a number of cast members have implied the ending is surprising and not what they expected. Does that mean that Jon and Dany ruling together is not the ending? Because I expect that would be most fans’ first guess. Edited April 10, 2018 by Eyes High 1 Link to comment
bubble sparkly April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Eyes High said: One thing that’s been giving me pause is that a number of cast members have implied the ending is surprising and not what they expected. Does that mean that Jon and Dany ruling together is not the ending? Because I expect that would be most fans’ first guess If Dany and Jon do both survive and rule together as equals, then I guess I could see the cast calling it surprising because there is always normally one official ruler and one throne etc. Also, if Dany and Jon destroy the iron throne (complete with breaking the wheel speech lol) as part of becoming joint rulers, then I could see people thinking the destruction of the iron throne is surprising considering all the fighting over that chair for 7 seasons. Link to comment
anamika April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, whateverdgaf said: I suspect the reason the show cut the will was because in the end it had little effect on the plot. On the contrary, the will had a very big effect on the plot. Jon became KITN despite Ned's trueborn heir sitting next to him and despite Sansa winning the BOTB because of that very pertinent will. If that will was not relevant, the show could have made Sansa QITN. Why add in unnecessary complications if it's not all that relevant? 4 hours ago, whateverdgaf said: Sansa was only disinherited because of her marriage to Tyrion, which could become a nonissue such as in the show. And even if she does not become a queen, considering how we saw the duties we saw her taking on in running Winterfell I think there is a very good chance she would end up in a position of power, such as an advisor. Rather similar to the role she now holds for Jon. It's going to be very hard for Sansa to get rid of the marriage -Tyrion should either die (which is what LF is hoping for) or there should be friendly regime in KL that would annul the marriage. Both of these scenarios, if they happen, will only happen towards the very end of the series. As for Sansa as adviser, if the show was heading towards their own ending, I could see this happening -though last season was a case study of why Sansa should not be advisor. Jon did not listen to one bit of advice from her and besides we have older, wiser folk like davos around. If the show is going to align with the book endings, then there is even less chances of Sansa advising anyone or indeed ruling. GRRM has repeatedly pointed to Arya hanging out with Ned, listening to the people of WF, following his teachings and words , traveling to places like White Harbor with him. Bran has actually ruled the North with Maester Luwin's help. Jon is instructing Stannis on which house to approach and how to approach them, invited clans to weddings, thwarted the Karstarks and joined the Wildlings to the North through marriage. He has negotiated deals with the Iron Bank and the wildlings. I don't see why Sansa would be a better ruler of WF than any of these three characters. And if she does become ruler/adviser she has to earn it like the other characters - do and show us that she is capable of it - which she has yet to do in the books. That's why it's hard for me to see a future role for Sansa in WF. She feels superfluous in the North with nothing much to contribute. Edited April 10, 2018 by anamika 2 Link to comment
Eyes High April 10, 2018 Author Share April 10, 2018 (edited) 54 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said: If Dany and Jon do both survive and rule together as equals, then I guess I could see the cast calling it surprising because there is always normally one official ruler and one throne etc. Also, if Dany and Jon destroy the iron throne (complete with breaking the wheel speech lol) as part of becoming joint rulers, then I could see people thinking the destruction of the iron throne is surprising considering all the fighting over that chair for 7 seasons. Yes, the destruction of the IT would likely qualify as surprising for the cast members. 45 minutes ago, anamika said: On the contrary, the will had a very big effect on the plot. Jon became KITN despite Ned's trueborn heir sitting next to him and despite Sansa winning the BOTB because of that very pertinent will. If that will was not relevant, the show could have made Sansa QITN. Why add in unnecessary complications if it's not all that relevant? It was pretty funny to watch the writers jump through self-created hoops to try to get to the same place as I expect the books will go without the benefit of Robb's will. I guess D&D left it out in S3 because they thought they could do without it. Not so much, as it turns out. Quote It's going to be very hard for Sansa to get rid of the marriage Even the scheme-loving, highly intelligent, highly creative Littlefinger of all people is counting on Tyrion dying to get rid of that marriage. All the would-be bounty claimers in AFFC get a crash course from Cersei on just how hard it is to fake Tyrion's death. That marriage is not going anywhere in the books. I believe that in the books, the only way out of that marriage is if one of them dies. (That would be Sansa.) Quote As for Sansa as adviser, if the show was heading towards their own ending, I could see this happening -though last season was a case study of why Sansa should not be advisor. Jon did not listen to one bit of advice from her and besides we have older, wiser folk like davos around. Sansa even complains that Jon doesn't listen to her, and she's right! Nor does Sansa particularly want to be an advisor, to Jon or anyone else. She clearly chafes at being reduced to bringing her worries to Jon, and it's made abundantly clear in S7 that she resents Jon being KITN and would much rather run things herself. Furthermore, she would personally benefit from Jon falling out of favour or dying, so she would make a poor advisor. Better to rely on someone who has a vested interest in his personal success than someone who would profit from his demise. Quote That's why it's hard for me to see a future role for Sansa in WF. She feels superfluous in the North with nothing much to contribute. TV Sansa has no business being at Winterfell, and it's obvious in S7 the writers are jumping through a lot of self-created hoops to keep her there and give her something to do. There's a reason GRRM passive-aggressively released the TWOW Alayne chapter around the same time S5 was airing. Edited April 10, 2018 by Eyes High 2 Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 (edited) "Her role in the upcoming season is more likely to be a continuation of what she was doing in Season 7, managing the food stores and such." People keep saying this, with reply to Sansa. But...I'd like to point out that book Sansa is NOT good at keeping house at all. Arya even jokes that Sansa's future husband better find himself a damned good Steward, bc Sansa is HORIBAD. I think this is a case of people drinking the show!Sansa koolaid without taking into account that no matter the show vs book differences, they're going to end in a relatively similar place. I honestly don't see book!Sansa ever making it back to Winterfell, which makes me think that wherever show Sansa ends up, it won't be in Winterfell. Littlefinger is surprised that the Northern Lords didn't back Sansa over Jon at the end of season 6, but anyone that understands the North would've seen that outcome coming a mile away. It has been explicitly stated numerous times in both book and on show that the North runs differently than the south. And a Southerner (littlefinger through proxy Sansa) could never hold it. There has to be a reason for that re: ASOIAF endgame. Edited April 10, 2018 by Gwen-Stacys 4 Link to comment
anamika April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eyes High said: Yes, the destruction of the IT would likely qualify as surprising for the cast members. Another possible ending that could be a happy ending 'on reflection' would be Jon and Dany giving up the throne and going away with their child to Essos or some far away city to live a life of peace. My theory after ADwD was that fire wight Jon is on borrowed time after resurrection, that he will most probably die defeating the Others and his lineage is important only so that he can ride a dragon in the great war. But the show keeps poking holes into my theories - why make him legitimate? How could he have a child if he is a fire wight? Another of my 'surprising' theories is Arya as queen on the Iron throne! Now there's a shocker that no one will expect. But GRRM did say 'If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it'. And Varys' description of fAegon is pretty much a description of Arya. 49 minutes ago, Gwen-Stacys said: "Her role in the upcoming season is more likely to be a continuation of what she was doing in Season 7, managing the food stores and such." People keep saying this, with reply to Sansa. But...I'd like to point out that book Sansa is NOT good at keeping house at all. Arya even jokes that Sansa's future husband better find himself a damned good Sansa is HORIBAD. I think this is a case of people drinking the show!Sansa koolaid without taking into account that no matter the show vs book differences, they're going to end in a relatively similar place. Not to mention the 'Food stores' stuff was Jon's ADwD plot where the food is a major plot point and he is keeping an eye on the oats, wheat, barley and veggies and negotiates with Wildlings and the Iron Bank to increase his food stores. He is also planning on building greenhouses in the gift to grow food. It's telling that Sansa's only relevant ruling was Jon's ADwD story, her Stark ' Lone wolf dies, pack survives' line is from Arya's narrative in the books and the Northern Lords had to be twisted into whiny, disloyal weather vanes to suit her style of 'diplomatic' ruling. There's no more this: Now there's only Sansa sitting there letting them insult Jon and talk treason because otherwise they would go away with their armies according to her. Forgetting that only a few episodes back, Lyanna Mormont gave them a sound verbal thrashing and they made Jon KITN after that. Sansa's only plot relevant to her book story last season was LF and unfortunately the shitty writing there meant that she was not even allowed to outwit him and take him down by herself- which I am sure she will do in the books. Instead she got manipulated by him till the very end and needed all seeing Bran to bail her out and help her take LF down. Edited April 10, 2018 by anamika 2 Link to comment
Eyes High April 10, 2018 Author Share April 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Gwen-Stacys said: I honestly don't see book!Sansa ever making it back to Winterfell, which makes me think that wherever show Sansa ends up, it won't be in Winterfell. The main argument I've seen put forward in favour of Sansa returning to Winterfell in the books--apart from the fact that she returns in the show--is "She wants to go back to Winterfell," which is kind of dumb, considering that ASOIAF characters wanting something is no indication, much less a guarantee, that they'll get it. 1 hour ago, anamika said: Another possible ending that could be a happy ending 'on reflection' would be Jon and Dany giving up the throne and going away with their child to Essos or some far away city to live a life of peace. My theory after ADwD was that fire wight Jon is on borrowed time after resurrection, that he will most probably die defeating the Others and his lineage is important only so that he can ride a dragon in the great war. But the show keeps poking holes into my theories - why make him legitimate? How could he have a child if he is a fire wight? Going back to the books, it seems that the only way the North will stay in the Seven Kingdoms is if a Targ is holding the throne. If the only two Targs bail on Westeros, what's to stop the North from becoming independent again (and the other kingdoms following suit)? That could of course be the endgame, but I'd be surprised. My bigger character-based problem with Jon and Dany leaving Westeros is that they both have too strong a sense of duty to bail on millions of people who will desperately need their help (especially if in Dany's case there are lots of Dothraki and Unsullied left alive to wrangle who will only answer to her). On the other hand, Jon bailed on the NW in Season 6 even though they really could have used his help, so I guess you could say there is precedent, and Dany losing all of her dragons (as I expect she will) could also lead her to make a decision she otherwise wouldn't. As for Arya, I don't really see much in the show pointing to her being the endgame queen, but Maisie has talked about having to go back and rewatch the show in light of the S8 scripts and seeing her arc as having a beginning, middle and an end, so hopefully Arya gets to a good place in the end. Quote Not to mention the 'Food stores' stuff was Jon's ADwD plot where the food is a major plot point and he is keeping an eye on the oats, wheat, barley and veggies and negotiates with Wildlings and the Iron Bank to increase his food stores. He is also planning on building greenhouses in the gift to grow food. It's telling that Sansa's only relevant ruling was Jon's ADwD story, her Stark ' Lone wolf dies, pack survives' line is from Arya's narrative in the books and the Northern Lords had to be twisted into whiny, disloyal weather vanes to suit her style of 'diplomatic' ruling. TV Sansa doesn't really have her own storyline anymore. She's gotten a mishmash of other book characters' stories: Jeyne Poole, Alys Karstark, and even Stannis. I get the sense that D&D are keeping time with her on their own self-created Winterfell track until the other plot threads are ready for her TV storyline to merge with her book endgame. I'm not sure what that endgame is, but it seems likely it won't be at Winterfell just as @Gwen-Stacys said. 3 Link to comment
screamin April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 5 hours ago, anamika said: What do you think will happen with Sansa in the next 2 books with regard to the North, taking into account Jon and Robb's will, Arya and Bran possibly re-entering the fray and Manderly backing Rickon? In the books? I'd say Sansa will capture Harry the Heir's heart - or at least his fancy - handily, and the betrothal will be concluded, with Harry then secretly being told by LF what a prize he's gotten - not just LF's immensely wealthy heiress, but the secret legitimate claimant to WF and to the title of KITN, the ruling of which would naturally fall to her husband. LF will promise that her previous marriage can easily be got out of the way - he can afford to send the very best assassins, or failing that, bribe septons for a secret annulment of her marriage on the confirmation of her virginity. Harry, a true summer knight, will be champing at the bit to claim all these prizes, and LF will delicately insinuate how nice it would be if Sweetrobin kicked the bucket as the poor sickly boy is bound to eventually do anyway, and really if it happened sooner it would be a mercy - LF would want to have Harry as an accomplice so that if Harry ever tries to take him down he can threaten to take Harry down with him. And, since LF likes to keep clean hands, he will order Sansa to be the one to actually give SR the poison, to implicate her inextricably in murder, so that she would never dare betray LF lest she hang beside him. Sansa will then have a decision to make. My belief and my preference is that she will take down LF to save SR. Since IIRC Jon was also planning to request help from the Vale (the nearest source of food for the starving North) this may even be complicated by a visit from Jon himself, either in his capacity of Lord Commander, as delegate of Stannis if he's not yet dead, or even perhaps as KITN - though he was reluctant to accept the title of Lord of WF from Stannis because he felt it belonged to Sansa, and if he knew Rickon were alive he'd no doubt say the title of WF and the KITN belonged to him. Manderley would likely think it preferable to have a young and impressionable trueborn heir beholden to himself and brought up by himself to be his especial friend, rather than Jon. Besides those heirs, there's also a fan theory that Jeyne Westerling was pregnant despite her mother's antifertility potions. And we don't know where Robb's will is. I doubt everyone on the scene will unanimously think the title to KiTN is at all clear cut. ITA with Eyes High that Sansa and LF are unlikely to go North. Marching to battle isn't LF's style - he'd want to leave that to Harry, and stay comfortably in the Vale being a power broker with his money and valuable Vale wheat. Stannis will need to deal out a defeat to Ramsay that's been hinted at in the books before he kills poor dear Shireen and falls, and Jon would not antagonize Stannis by declaring himself KiTN, so that won't happen till after Stannis is dead. Also, remember, both Dorne and Highgarden were taken out of the equation ridiculously quickly on the show, but in the books neither kingdom is likely to run out of heirs, or clout. If Sansa DOES manage to outmaneuver LF, she likely will be in a position of power. Bronze Yohn will be the likely guardian and Hand to SR, but he will need Sansa's unquestionable influence over SR to rule easily, and once publically revealed, Sansa's claim is valuable and she can use her claim of virginity like Elizabeth I did to play her potential suitors. This may include declaring herself QITN to increase the visible value of her hand. And/or it may be that Dorne and Highgarden will rebel from Cersei's rule and declare themselves kingdoms in their own right. And while sending Vale forces North in winter is probably impractical, sending them south to lay waste to Frey lands and points further south (including KL) would be attractively profitable to the Vale and to Highgarden. Sansa may be queen no more than transiently - whether it will be QiTN until Stannis dies and Jon is acclaimed king, or Queen of the Reach by marriage, or whatever - but I just think she's really destined to be the Younger, More Beautiful Queen that Cersei never saw coming. Dany lacks the dramatic irony that Sansa has to fill that role. And I agree she may well die afterwards. Quote People keep saying this, with reply to Sansa. But...I'd like to point out that book Sansa is NOT good at keeping house at all. Arya even jokes that Sansa's future husband better find himself a damned good Steward, bc Sansa is HORIBAD. All I remember about this is that Arya said Sansa was bad at math, and would therefore need someone to help with the account books. Doesn't equal to being bad at keeping house. 4 Link to comment
Eyes High April 10, 2018 Author Share April 10, 2018 Quote Sansa may be queen no more than transiently - whether it will be QiTN until Stannis dies and Jon is acclaimed king, or Queen of the Reach by marriage, or whatever - but I just think she's really destined to be the Younger, More Beautiful Queen that Cersei never saw coming. Sansa has to be some sort of queen to be the YMBQ, though. She can't be QITN, having been disinherited by Robb (and having living siblings whose existence will soon be known) and she can't be queen consort unless Tyrion ascends the throne. I do think that Sansa and Cersei are likely to have some sort of reckoning, but Sansa being queen won't be a part of it. Quote All I remember about this is that Arya said Sansa was bad at math, and would therefore need someone to help with the account books. Not exactly: Quote It hurt that the one thing Arya could do better than her sister was ride a horse. Well, that and manage a household. Sansa had never had much of a head for figures. If she did marry Prince Joff, Arya hoped for his sake that he had a good steward. And Sansa thinks to herself that she's "hopeless at sums" in AGOT, so this thought isn't just Arya being uncharitable. 1 Link to comment
screamin April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Eyes High said: Not exactly: And Sansa thinks to herself that she's "hopeless at sums" in AGOT, so this thought isn't just Arya being uncharitable. I'm not arguing the fact that Sansa IS, Barbie-like, bad at sums. I agree that that's clearly established. I'm just saying that a lack of math aptitude does not by itself make a person hopeless at housekeeping. When she thought that about Sansa, Arya didn't think about any other aspect of housekeeping except the math itself - not appropriate etiquette and the tactful managing of subordinates toward a common goal, for example...and we actually DO see Sansa doing that in the Vale as LF's chatelaine. Quote Sansa has to be some sort of queen to be the YMBQ, though. She can't be QITN, having been disinherited by Robb (and having living siblings whose existence will soon be known) and she can't be queen consort unless Tyrion ascends the throne. I do think that Sansa and Cersei are likely to have some sort of reckoning, but Sansa being queen won't be a part of it. We don't know how 'soon' the existence of Sansa's living siblings will be known. Remember Rickon is still living among cannibals in the books, and his existence won't be public until he is safely recovered, for Manderley won't want to reveal that he's alive till he has safe custody of him, for fear Ramsey will send an assassin to kill him before Davos can get him back. The will is AWOL, and prone to being deemed irrelevant or forged to interested parties even if found, and Jon himself has already begged off getting WF - why would we expect him to suddenly want the title of KiTN - especially since the North currently depends on Stannis, who won't stand for a king who ISN'T him? Not to mention she could also be 'queen' of a breakaway kingdom of the Vale or the Reach by marriage, not just the Iron Throne. There's time for lots of stuff to happen. Edited April 10, 2018 by screamin 2 Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Eyes High said: And Sansa thinks to herself that she's "hopeless at sums" in AGOT, so this thought isn't just Arya being uncharitable. Most weaknesses described in that first chapter are likely establishing characterization for future growth. It's not like she couldn't learn if someone would teach her. I mean how many of us are "bad at math" but can actually do it, with instruction. Or how many of us understand math better when it's applied in a different context or in a new way. Also, Sansa at age 11 probably can't run a household at that point, but could do it if she had lessons. She's already taking on that role in the Eyrie to some degree. Since Sansa can't ride a horse very well, this might also be a set-up for future growth. If Alys and Jeyne are red herrings - and why it looks like Sansa "took over" their storylines - I could see her riding that dying horse at some point to the Wall. 3 Link to comment
Eyes High April 10, 2018 Author Share April 10, 2018 53 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said: Most weaknesses described in that first chapter are likely establishing characterization for future growth. It's not like she couldn't learn if someone would teach her. Sansa's septa has been teaching her, and Sansa's apparently "hopeless" at it by her own admission. We know 1) Book Sansa is diligent and puts in effort when it comes to her studies, 2) Book Sansa otherwise flourishes under the septa's instruction, and 3) there's no reason to believe that she puts in any less work to her study of sums than to anything else or that her inability is attributable to lack of effort or inadequate instruction. If Sansa sucks at math, therefore, she probably just...sucks at math. Arya's throwaway comment about her ability at math surpassing Sansa's, coming on the heels of a long-winded rant about how Sansa is better at everything and left absolutely nothing for Arya because she can (among other things) sing, sew and dress properly, looks like a bit of 20th-century perspective humour from GRRM: Arya's smarter than Sansa (as the books have made clear in several instances), but their world overlooks that intelligence because of Arya's inadequate singing, sewing ability and fashion sense. Gender roles, amirite? Quote Since Sansa can't ride a horse very well, this might also be a set-up for future growth. Unlike with sums, there's no indication that Sansa can't ride a horse very well, only that Arya, whose horsemanship is so good it warrants comparisons to Lyanna "half a horse" Stark, is better at it than she is. As for your suggestion that Sansa being an inferior rider to Arya is "setup for future growth," Book Sansa not being as good at horsemanship and math as Arya really has no bearing on her arc unless you think it's completely unacceptable that Arya is always going to be better at some things than Sansa. Quote If Alys and Jeyne are red herrings - and why it looks like Sansa "took over" their storylines - I could see her riding that dying horse at some point to the Wall. GRRM openly griped about the Sansa/Jeyne swap and has said something to the effect that he doesn't know what D&D are doing with TV Sansa's storyline, so I doubt it. 3 Link to comment
screamin April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 44 minutes ago, Eyes High said: Arya's smarter than Sansa (as the books have made clear in several instances), but their world overlooks that intelligence because of Arya's inadequate singing, sewing ability and fashion sense. Gender roles, amirite? Do we really need to go there? Their aptitudes are different. They excel in widely different spheres, and that was the plan of both their characters from the beginning. While I agree Sansa is probably not going to need to post off to the Wall anytime soon, I do think that all the work GRRM has set up in the Vale (making Sansa aware of Kettleblack and Lothar Brune keeping an eye on each other, Lothar Brune's love for Mya Stone, Bronze Yohn Royce's dislike of LF, and all the other ins and outs of Vale politics) was set up to eventually show Sansa using all she has learned to act against LF at a critical moment. In other words, to get her roughly to the place of political adeptness that she occupies in WF on the show now - perhaps even more adept, because she'll have to defeat LF without the help of her siblings, unlike the show. 3 Link to comment
Eyes High April 10, 2018 Author Share April 10, 2018 33 minutes ago, screamin said: Do we really need to go there? Their aptitudes are different. They excel in widely different spheres, and that was the plan of both their characters from the beginning. You could say the same thing about Jaime and Tyrion, but no one would argue that Jaime is smarter than Tyrion. Arya and Sansa's relative levels of intelligence probably have no bearing on their endgames, though, so I'll get back back to the topic at hand: Quote While I agree Sansa is probably not going to need to post off to the Wall anytime soon, I do think that all the work GRRM has set up in the Vale (making Sansa aware of Kettleblack and Lothar Brune keeping an eye on each other, Lothar Brune's love for Mya Stone, Bronze Yohn Royce's dislike of LF, and all the other ins and outs of Vale politics) was set up to eventually show Sansa using all she has learned to act against LF at a critical moment. I think Book Sansa's "job" is to defeat Littlefinger, so as long as he's alive she's safe. Once he's dead, though... 2 Link to comment
screamin April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 21 minutes ago, Eyes High said: You could say the same thing about Jaime and Tyrion, but no one would argue that Jaime is smarter than Tyrion. Judging by the show, one could argue that Jaime's practical knowledge of warfare trumped Tyrion's vast theoretical knowledge when he abandoned Casterly Rock and left it as a useless decoy that Tyrion fell for. 1 Link to comment
GraceK April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, screamin said: Judging by the show, one could argue that Jaime's practical knowledge of warfare trumped Tyrion's vast theoretical knowledge when he abandoned Casterly Rock and left it as a useless decoy that Tyrion fell for. I also think Jaime is a lot smarter than he gives himself credit for. Edited April 10, 2018 by GraceK 4 Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 10, 2018 Share April 10, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Eyes High said: GRRM openly griped about the Sansa/Jeyne swap and has said something to the effect that he doesn't know what D&D are doing with TV Sansa's storyline, so I doubt it. I think D&D picked up on the Sansa/Jeyne/Arya/Alys connections that GRRM has been carefully layering into the books, and decided "we'll just make her Jeyne!" without really caring for subtlety (not exactly their strong suit). I envision Sansa's arc in Winds written as a Tyrion or Brienne style travelogue, something D&D appear to loathe and aren't at all interested in telling. Nonetheless, after that rape episode aired, he reiterated the butterfly effect again, how much the plots had diverged, but how they'll end up in the same place. I don't think Jon and Sansa meeting is just D&D fanfic. The first Stark reunion is too important. I really believe Sansa in Winds will end up at the Wall. While there won't be a marriage, I could possibly see a Ramsay-style hunt (hunting foreshadowing, Alayne Winds), and Sansa may end up captured, but Ramsay won't know who she is. It would be savage irony that Ramsay is looking for "Arya" who is "Jeyne" while having captured "Alayne" who is "Sansa." So the asshole would have a legitimate Stark daughter in his possession, but she throws his own chicanery back in his face. Hell to the yes. The Jeyne/Sansa connection is solid. The Alys/Sansa connection is even more interesting. Jeyne/Arya/Alys are all connected to the grey girl; it's super easy to throw Sansa into that: Jeyne is a false Arya who could be a red herring for Sansa, because "Arya" is Jeyne, Sansa's best friend, the steward's daughter, while Sansa is "Alayne," the steward's daughter in the Vale, and Alayne would look similar to Jeyne because of her dark hair. Alys could be a red herring for Sansa; she has Sansa-like traits, she's fleeing a marriage like Sansa would be (in this case, Harry). Alys in the show also looks like a Sansa body double; that's odd because she's described as looking like Arya. Even if this isn't the plot that he's going with, the parallels between the Northern girls are fascinating to explore. Edited April 10, 2018 by Colorful Mess 2 Link to comment
screamin April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 23 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said: I don't think Jon and Sansa meeting is just D&D fanfic. I agree that there probably WILL be a meeting between them...IMO, it's foreshadowed with Sansa's thoughts about Jon, "How sweet it would be, to see him again," not to mention Jon's mildly fond (if vanishingly rare) thoughts of Sansa, implying he would be likely as glad to see her. But if it happens because Sansa's fleeing for her life to the Wall, it would most likely mean she'd failed in the Vale in her political maneuvers...which would be a giant step backwards for her in her progress. I think it's more likely Jon will go to the Vale (I think he even contemplated doing so when considering where he can get supplies and help for the winter). 3 Link to comment
anamika April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, screamin said: Since IIRC Jon was also planning to request help from the Vale (the nearest source of food for the starving North) this may even be complicated by a visit from Jon himself, either in his capacity of Lord Commander, as delegate of Stannis if he's not yet dead, or even perhaps as KITN - though he was reluctant to accept the title of Lord of WF from Stannis because he felt it belonged to Sansa, and if he knew Rickon were alive he'd no doubt say the title of WF and the KITN belonged to him. Manderley would likely think it preferable to have a young and impressionable trueborn heir beholden to himself and brought up by himself to be his especial friend, rather than Jon. Besides those heirs, there's also a fan theory that Jeyne Westerling was pregnant despite her mother's antifertility potions. And we don't know where Robb's will is. I doubt everyone on the scene will unanimously think the title to KiTN is at all clear cut. Jon refused WF from Stannis because Stannis required that he burn the Godswoods, not because of Sansa. There is a whole Jon chapter where he thinks on this and it's Ghost's reappearance - reminding him of the weirwoods - that helps him make up his mind. On the other hand, if it is Robb's will that makes him king - his own brother asking that he take over - with no conditions like burning the Godswoods, I don't see Jon refusing it. The more wilder, wolfish Jon who comes back after a stay in Ghost would probably care even less that Sansa is alive. Manderly will be supporting Rickon and the whole current North plot revolves around fake Arya - I can see the real Arya getting there - after coming across Jeyne in Braavos. It's possible Bran gets back to Winterfell from beyond the wall - and he is still the Prince of Winterfell. It's hard to see disinherited Sansa becoming queen in this mess. Sure LF wants to make her queen - but he has obstacles in his path - Tyrion, Rickon, Bran, Arya etc. are still alive and Robb's pesky will at Greywater Watch. 1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said: The Jeyne/Sansa connection is solid. The Alys/Sansa connection is even more interesting. Jeyne/Arya/Alys are all connected to the grey girl; it's super easy to throw Sansa into that: Jeyne is a false Arya who could be a red herring for Sansa, because "Arya" is Jeyne, Sansa's best friend, the steward's daughter, while Sansa is "Alayne," the steward's daughter in the Vale, and Alayne would look similar to Jeyne because of her dark hair. Alys could be a red herring for Sansa; she has Sansa-like traits, she's fleeing a marriage like Sansa would be (in this case, Harry). Alys in the show also looks like a Sansa body double; that's odd because she's described as looking like Arya. Even if this isn't the plot that he's going with, the parallels between the Northern girls are fascinating to explore. I am sorry, but the 'Sansa is the 'grey girl'' theory is one of the silliest theories I have read from Jonsa shippers. We already know who the grey girl is. The grey girl has reached the Wall already. The grey girl is Alys Karstark. There is no connection between Alys Karstark and Sansa in the story. None at all. These are nothing more than efforts to once again give Arya's story to Sansa. Alys Karstark gets on her horse and rides through the harsh winter to get to the wall and Jon for help. Sansa is the princess in the tower waiting for someone to save her and has even forgotten that she has a brother at the wall. Throughout ADwD, Jon mistakes Alys for Arya. He sends Mance out on an authorized rescue mission because he thinks Alys is Arya. Quote Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall. A girl in grey on a dying horse, he thought. Coming here, to you. Arya. The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. “Let him be scared of me.” The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled. “Winter’s lady.” Jon squeezed her hand. Ramsay marrying Arya to hold the North, the mountain clans marching to Winterfell in harsh winter to save Arya, Alys Karstark looking like Arya and Jon sending Mance to save her, Jon getting together a wildling army to rescue Arya, Jon thinking of Arya as he dies - Arya was everywhere in ADwD. The North plot revolved around her. That's why Arya is important to the WF narrative. So, no. Sansa has nothing to do with the 'grey girl' and she is not going to the wall. That's D&D's fanfiction to give their pet character something to do since they find her actual book story too boring to adapt to tv. Edited April 11, 2018 by anamika 5 Link to comment
GraceK April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 23 minutes ago, anamika said: am sorry, but the 'Sansa is the 'grey girl'' theory is one of the silliest theories I have read from Jonsa shippers Jonsa shippers are at a level of delusional I won’t even go NEAR ? 3 Link to comment
screamin April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, anamika said: Jon refused WF from Stannis because Stannis required that he burn the Godswoods, not because of Sansa. There is a whole Jon chapter where he thinks on this and it's Ghost's reappearance - reminding him of the weirwoods - that helps him make up his mind. Why not both? Yes, Jon thinks it's wrong to burn the godswoods as the price of becoming Lord of Winterfell. But when he's elected Lord Commander, and therefore becomes ineligible to take Stannis' offer anyway in A Dance With Dragons, he tells Stannis this: "By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa." Quote On the other hand, if it is Robb's will that makes him king - his own brother asking that he take over - with no conditions like burning the Godswoods, I don't see Jon refusing it. The more wilder, wolfish Jon who comes back after a stay in Ghost would probably care even less that Sansa is alive. We have no clue what exactly a resurrected Jon is going to be like. I don't think we can just assume he would suddenly become more ambitious and less scrupulous and want to shove his siblings aside to claim Winterfell. The exact opposite happened to Beric Dondarrion after his resurrection(s) - he forgot the woman he was betrothed to and his attachment to his home. I don't think the discovery of Robb's will would make much difference to him. Jon would know Robb wrote that will thinking that his legitimate brothers were dead. If Jon knew Rickon were still alive, I don't think he would want to contravene what he believed Ned's wishes would have been to push aside Rickon's claim to take WF for himself. Not to mention that Manderly - the firmest Northern vassal - would absolutely oppose his usurping of Rickon. Edited April 11, 2018 by screamin Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 2 hours ago, screamin said: I agree that there probably WILL be a meeting between them...IMO, it's foreshadowed with Sansa's thoughts about Jon, "How sweet it would be, to see him again," not to mention Jon's mildly fond (if vanishingly rare) thoughts of Sansa, implying he would be likely as glad to see her. But if it happens because Sansa's fleeing for her life to the Wall, it would most likely mean she'd failed in the Vale in her political maneuvers...which would be a giant step backwards for her in her progress. I think it's more likely Jon will go to the Vale (I think he even contemplated doing so when considering where he can get supplies and help for the winter). Yeah, I can see it either way. I'm partial to her getting out of the tower and breaking and running on her own. What else do you think she needs to do in terms of political maneuvers? I'm open to this, as long as it's something that would be as valuable as getting outside the Vale/castle/carriage - because right now that's too much shelter, too much imprisonment, for too long. Also, she might not have time for much political maneuvering if the tourney ends in disaster. It's too perfect and happy of an event for such a dark book. Winter is coming to the Vale and elsewhere in Westeros. I'm sensing a bloody wildling attack from the mountain clans. They've been growing braver as Winter is approaching and have been attacking the small folk. I think they might actually raid the nobility itself during the tourney, like the bread riots in KL.The Chekov’s gun for the mountain clans doing this goes back to Tyrion arming them and allowing them to see how much wealth the nobility really have. I also think LF is going to "go there" and sexually assault her, and she would now be looking for any opportunity out of there. Corbray or Shadrich could kidnap her for ransom and she escapes from them too. 2 Link to comment
anamika April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, screamin said: Why not both? Yes, Jon thinks it's wrong to burn the godswoods as the price of becoming Lord of Winterfell. But when he's elected Lord Commander, and therefore becomes ineligible to take Stannis' offer anyway in A Dance With Dragons, he tells Stannis this: "By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa." Because we have an entire Jon POV chapter (ASoS, Jon XII) where he explores the idea of accepting Stannis' offer and Sansa does not feature in it even once. He thinks of the tenuous situation at the wall, Ygritte, Val, Robb, Cat, Theon, Ned, weirwoods and never once of Sansa. He uses the 'By right WF belongs to Sansa' to shut Stannis up on the topic, but given that he does not take her into consideration when he thinks about the pros and cons of accepting the offer, it's clear that she is not the deciding factor. It's telling that when Stannis bring up Sansa's marriage to Tyrion as a rebuttal, Jon leaves the room and thinks on how Tyrion is doing, rather than the sister forced into marriage to him. Quote He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. Quote When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman’s hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods. Quote The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon’s face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns. Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow. He had his answer then. 2 hours ago, screamin said: We have no clue what exactly a resurrected Jon is going to be like. I don't think we can just assume he would suddenly become more ambitious and less scrupulous and want to shove his siblings aside to claim Winterfell. The exact opposite happened to Beric Dondarrion after his resurrection(s) - he forgot the woman he was betrothed to and his attachment to his home. Book Jon is already incredibly ambitious. He joins the NW because bastards can climb up the ladder by merit rather than birth. He is angry when Mormont makes him a steward until Sam points out that it's because Jon can become LC. Jon wants to become LC of the NW. He wants to be Lord of Winterfell. And if Jon thinks he is the right person to lead the North against the Others, then he is going to take it. And I think that GRRM has already mentioned that we are going to see a more morally grey Jon after resurrection. 2 hours ago, screamin said: I don't think the discovery of Robb's will would make much difference to him. Jon would know Robb wrote that will thinking that his legitimate brothers were dead. If Jon knew Rickon were still alive, I don't think he would want to contravene what he believed Ned's wishes would have been to push aside Rickon's claim to take WF for himself. Not to mention that Manderly - the firmest Northern vassal - would absolutely oppose his usurping of Rickon. On the contrary, I think a decree from a beloved brother to take over as KITN would mean everything to Jon. Robb is entrusting the North to him. Robb is not Stannis. Robb's will also legitimizes Jon. That cannot be taken away. According to Robb's will, Jon is a Stark now. As the eldest Stark child, if the rest of the Stark siblings don't fight against it, he would be Lord of Winterfell - that's why Catelyn was so against the legitimization. Rickon, of course, would be supported by Manderly. But I suspect Rickon is not long for this world. I can see Jon giving way to Bran or Arya if they make an appearance and stake a claim. I can see Arya also supporting Jon or Bran as KITN. Which is why we could see a bit of a Stark civil war up North. Sansa's path to WF is blocked as long as she remains married to Tyrion. The only support for her currently is from LF. Edited April 11, 2018 by anamika 2 Link to comment
WindyNights April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Eyes High said: Sansa's septa has been teaching her, and Sansa's apparently "hopeless" at it by her own admission. We know 1) Book Sansa is diligent and puts in effort when it comes to her studies, 2) Book Sansa otherwise flourishes under the septa's instruction, and 3) there's no reason to believe that she puts in any less work to her study of sums than to anything else or that her inability is attributable to lack of effort or inadequate instruction. If Sansa sucks at math, therefore, she probably just...sucks at math. Arya's throwaway comment about her ability at math surpassing Sansa's, coming on the heels of a long-winded rant about how Sansa is better at everything and left absolutely nothing for Arya because she can (among other things) sing, sew and dress properly, looks like a bit of 20th-century perspective humour from GRRM: Arya's smarter than Sansa (as the books have made clear in several instances), but their world overlooks that intelligence because of Arya's inadequate singing, sewing ability and fashion sense. Gender roles, amirite? Unlike with sums, there's no indication that Sansa can't ride a horse very well, only that Arya, whose horsemanship is so good it warrants comparisons to Lyanna "half a horse" Stark, is better at it than she is. As for your suggestion that Sansa being an inferior rider to Arya is "setup for future growth," Book Sansa not being as good at horsemanship and math as Arya really has no bearing on her arc unless you think it's completely unacceptable that Arya is always going to be better at some things than Sansa. GRRM openly griped about the Sansa/Jeyne swap and has said something to the effect that he doesn't know what D&D are doing with TV Sansa's storyline, so I doubt it. Arya says Sansa's better at everything than her besides riding horses and math. Also Sansa's apparently a better writer than her brothers. It doesn't mean Jon and Robb are dumb just that everyone has things that they excel in. Edited April 11, 2018 by WindyNights 1 Link to comment
WindyNights April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 8 hours ago, Eyes High said: You could say the same thing about Jaime and Tyrion, but no one would argue that Jaime is smarter than Tyrion. Arya and Sansa's relative levels of intelligence probably have no bearing on their endgames, though, so I'll get back back to the topic at hand: I think Book Sansa's "job" is to defeat Littlefinger, so as long as he's alive she's safe. Once he's dead, though... Well Arya is better at math and riding horses than Sansa. And fighting as well. Sansa is better at writing, singing, dancing and poetry. And GRRM is saying that Sansa is going to become a player that relies on her wits: GRRM: Up to now, Sansa has been a piece that other people have moved about the board to achieve their own goals, using her, discarding her, using her for a different purpose, you know, ‘You’re gonna marry Joffrey.’ ‘No, you’re gonna marry Loras.’ ‘You’re gonna marry Tyrion.’ She is beginning to at least try to understand how she can play the game of thrones and be, not a piece, but a player with her own goals and moving other pieces around. And she’s not a warrior like Robb, Jon Snow. She’s not even a wild child like Arya. She can’t fight with swords, axes. She can’t raise armies. But she has her wits, the same as Littlefinger has. 1 Link to comment
Happy Harpy April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 6 hours ago, Colorful Mess said: I really believe Sansa in Winds will end up at the Wall. While there won't be a marriage, I could possibly see a Ramsay-style hunt (hunting foreshadowing, Alayne Winds), and Sansa may end up captured, but Ramsay won't know who she is. It would be savage irony that Ramsay is looking for "Arya" who is "Jeyne" while having captured "Alayne" who is "Sansa." So the asshole would have a legitimate Stark daughter in his possession, but she throws his own chicanery back in his face. Hell to the yes. Captured by Ramsay, like Rickon on the show? That's an idea...then, we might already have seen Book!Sansa's endgame. Jon expects one sister or thinks she is safe and bam, Ramsay gets another sister out of his hat just before the BoTB. It would be like D&D to swap a character for another. Since Rickon is going to die but they cut the whole Northern conspiracy, Stannis/Davos/Manderly etc., and since she's a more recognizable character (their pet one imo) D&D swapped his and Sansa's ends. Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 (edited) On Jon post-rez - I think he will be even less ambitious. If he was already ambitious his death would change him in the opposite direction: "I do think that if you’re bringing a character back, that a character has gone through death, that’s a transformative experience...My characters who come back from death are worse for wear. In some ways, they’re not even the same characters anymore" - GRRM on Gandalf, Bullseye Interview, 2011 "Each time he’s revived he loses a little more of himself. He was sent on a mission before his first death. He was sent on a mission to do something, and it’s like, that’s what he’s clinging to. He’s forgetting other things, he’s forgetting who he is, or where he lived. He’s forgotten the woman who he was once supposed to marry. Bits of his humanity are lost every time he comes back from death; he remembers that mission. His flesh is falling away from him, but this one thing, this purpose that he had is part of what’s animating him and bringing him back to death. I think you see echoes of that with some of the other characters who have come back from death.” - GRRM on Beric, Bullseye Interview, 2011 It would be interesting if Jon felt he had to fulfill his last mission, but his heart really wasn't in it to fight. It would be like a tension. On the one hand there's Jon, wolfblood running hot, who wanted to take a band of wildlings to Winterfell and "make Ramsay answer for his words" because of what he did to his sister. On the other is Jon who doesn't really care anymore about being at the head of an army, or being victorious. Kind of like, this entire world is shit, why should he fight for it. And his memory may be scrambled. And because he'll be less powerful, he'll lose the battle. Which is why Sansa probably has to do something like she did in the show - wake his ass up and save him. He just doesn't have the passion that Sansa has to get WF back, but he'll still kick Ramsay's ass because that was his mission, and because he does seem to care about his wolf pack (Sansa and Rickon). I can see it playing out as very anti-Gandalf-the-White. Edited April 11, 2018 by Colorful Mess 1 Link to comment
anamika April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said: And because he'll be less powerful, he'll lose the battle. Which is why Sansa probably has to do something like she did in the show - wake his ass up and save him. He just doesn't have the passion that Sansa has to get WF back, but he'll still kick Ramsay's ass because that was his mission, and because he does seem to care about his wolf pack (Sansa and Rickon). I can see it playing out as very anti-Gandalf-the-White. That plot point has already been done with it in the books. Jon gave a bad-ass speech in the shield hall and rallied the wildlings to fight for him and go kick Ramsay's ass. If anything Jon is going to come back with an even greater desire to go kick Ramsay's ass. And Theon is going to be there for Ramsay's ending. If you are expecting Jon and Sansa to meet in the books like on the show, you are going to be sorely disappointed. These are two characters who have nothing to do with each other and whose plots and stories are completely different. If they do meet, it's not going to happen until the very end. Like many others, I don't think Sansa is going North. She has to get control of the Vale by marrying Harry the Heir - and she can't announce her identity as Sansa Stark until Tyrion is dead. There's still a long way to go for the resolution of that plot. Plus, GRRM has indicated that LF and Varys will clash as well. So Sansa may get involved in the fAegon story when Dany gets there for the Dance of Dragons 2.0. The food stores of the Vale are no doubt important and will help when the North falls and the survivors flee south. 5 Link to comment
Eyes High April 11, 2018 Author Share April 11, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, screamin said: I agree that there probably WILL be a meeting between them...IMO, it's foreshadowed with Sansa's thoughts about Jon, "How sweet it would be, to see him again," not to mention Jon's mildly fond (if vanishingly rare) thoughts of Sansa, implying he would be likely as glad to see her. Sansa is largely indifferent to Jon. She realizes in AFFC that she hasn't thought of him in a very long time (which is true, since the last time she thinks of him before then is in ACOK), and she only thinks it would be "sweet" to see him because now that all her real brothers are dead, he's the only family she has left, even if he is "only her half-brother." In context, Sansa's thoughts about Jon in AFFC shows how little she cares for him. She pretty much sees him as a poor consolation prize for her "real" family. Moreover, Jon doesn't much care for Sansa, either. He thinks in the books that he misses them all, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "half-brother" once she realized what the word "bastard" meant. (We also see in AGOT Sansa correcting Arya when she hotly insists that Jon is their brother, so obviously this was a bit of a thing with Sansa, and it's no wonder it pissed Jon off.) It's not a coincidence that Jon and Sansa never share a goodbye in AGOT. Just as Jon is a distant second to her "real" siblings for Sansa, Sansa is a distant second to Jon's other siblings for Jon. Jon tolerated Sansa and occasionally thinks of her along with his other siblings--Sansa even gets a nod in Jon's dying vision in ADWD of his siblings--but this idea that there's any kind of fondness there on either side has no basis in the books. You want to see what fondness from Jon resembles, look at his thoughts about Arya. As for whether they will meet again, they well may, but Sansa's not going north in the books anytime soon, much less fleeing to the Wall. 6 hours ago, anamika said: Like many others, I don't think Sansa is going North. She has to get control of the Vale by marrying Harry the Heir - and she can't announce her identity as Sansa Stark until Tyrion is dead. GRRM has deliberately set up a situation where Sansa can't marry Harry the Heir until either Tyrion is dead or there is a sufficiently friendly regime in KL for Sansa to reveal her location and request an annulment. Neither is going to happen anytime soon, and that's just the way GRRM wants it. Edited April 11, 2018 by Eyes High 5 Link to comment
screamin April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, anamika said: Because we have an entire Jon POV chapter (ASoS, Jon XII) where he explores the idea of accepting Stannis' offer and Sansa does not feature in it even once. Yes, I read it. And I agree that Jon has longed to be a Stark, and fantasized about the fact that if he was legitimate, he WOULD be Lord of Winterfell as his father's eldest child. And I agree with this: Quote Book Jon is already incredibly ambitious. ...but it's pretty clear that Beric (the only example we have of this type of resurrection) lost his old dreams and ambitions with his resurrections, and ended up fixated on the mission he was on when he died. If that applies to Jon? Then he'll fixate on his last mission of...obligation to his family, such as the rescue of the still-living 'Arya'. Of course, it remains to be seen how much Jon will change with only ONE resurrection under his belt. Also, having Ghost to warg into instead of sending his soul onward to some traumatizing afterlife may protect him to some degree. But we can't expect him to INCREASE his ambition toward his old dreams to the extent of opposing his still-living family's rights to them, IMO. Quote On the contrary, I think a decree from a beloved brother to take over as KITN would mean everything to Jon. Robb is entrusting the North to him. Robb is not Stannis. No, but Robb is dead, and still-living Stannis is unfortunately still key to the defense of the North in the books. And Stannis would NOT put up with Jon declaring himself KiTN no matter what Robb's will said. So if Jon declared himself KiTN while Stannis was alive, that would be an act of selfishness at the expense of the North that I think would be very uncharacteristic of Jon. And yes, a decree from beloved deceased Robb recognizing him legitimate and heir to the KiTN crown absolutely would mean a great deal to Jon. But IMO, it wouldn't blind him to the obvious fact that Robb wrote it after he thought his legitimate brothers were dead, and that if Robb knew that Rickon was still alive he wouldn't have bypassed his legitimate brothers to give the kingdom to Jon. Quote Robb's will also legitimizes Jon. That cannot be taken away. According to Robb's will, Jon is a Stark now. As the eldest Stark child, if the rest of the Stark siblings don't fight against it, he would be Lord of Winterfell - that's why Catelyn was so against the legitimization. The fact that Jon was the elder doesn't mean that Jon MUST necessarily become the heir on his legitimization...even within the world of Westeros it seems that often a legitimized bastard's right comes AFTER the trueborn children regardless of age. Jon telling himself that Robb would be Totes Okay with him shouldering Rickon aside to take the throne for himself would be Jon telling himself lies for selfish reasons - lies that would also have bad consequences for the North, leading to her vassals fighting among themselves for the Starks' competing claims. That would, again, be a selfish act that would be highly uncharacteristic of Jon. Not to mention that if he claims WF on the grounds of having been legitimized by Robb as the eldest son of Ned, the subsequent revelation of his parentage about NOT being the son of Ned and thus having NO rights to WF over Ned's kids would put Jon thoroughly in the wrong and make him look greedy to boot. While Jon's ignorance would not be his fault in that case, his greed would, and I don't think GRRM intended to assign him that trait. IMO, Jon would only be willing to become Lord of WF if Stannis is dead AND he thought Sansa was permanently a creature of the Lannisters AND he genuinely believed/knew Rickon/Bran/Arya was also dead. Edited April 11, 2018 by screamin 4 Link to comment
screamin April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 7 hours ago, anamika said: Like many others, I don't think Sansa is going North. She has to get control of the Vale by marrying Harry the Heir - and she can't announce her identity as Sansa Stark until Tyrion is dead. There's another way she could get control of the Vale - being the indispensable mother-substitute/unrequited love of Sweetrobin, if she keeps him alive despite the machinations of LF and defeats LF. She could then use her unmarried state and her illustrious claims to negotiate for the greatest political advantages for her hand among the highest bidders - WITHOUT having to deal with the probable bullying and the legal submerging of her identity and claim and will into her husband's that a marriage would require. Given Sansa's experience, I would think THAT situation would be vastly preferable to an immediate marriage. 1 Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 9 hours ago, Happy Harpy said: Captured by Ramsay, like Rickon on the show? That's an idea...then, we might already have seen Book!Sansa's endgame. Jon expects one sister or thinks she is safe and bam, Ramsay gets another sister out of his hat just before the BoTB. It would be like D&D to swap a character for another. Since Rickon is going to die but they cut the whole Northern conspiracy, Stannis/Davos/Manderly etc., and since she's a more recognizable character (their pet one imo) D&D swapped his and Sansa's ends. Not quite. Mance's plot needs resolution. The "hidey holes" he mentioned when Mel described the grey girl is a chekhov. That's significant knowledge that has yet to be applied. He could end up helping Sansa somehow with that info. He could also provide the horse. Theon thinks of a "winged horse" in WF, and Mance mentions stealing a horse during his infiltration of Robert's feast. Moreover, Theon thinks that Mance is going to die for the wrong girl. I don't believe this is going to happen, because his arc is inspired by Bael (Abel), and Mance isn't the fool; he's the one who fools others. His goal would be to "steal" an actual Stark daughter. Mance may also be the new "Reek," but it's iffy if Ramsay has actually captured Mance. Most importantly, when Mance met Jon, he said he got a look at all the faces of the Starks at the feast, and this seems like another chekhov. He would be the only person in Winterfell to recognize her as Sansa, and he would know that he fulfilled his mission to trick the kneelers twice over. Jon's intentions to save his sister (and her friend) would be serendipitous foresight. It's after all of this, when she rides North, that she falls off the horse and dies. Link to comment
screamin April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eyes High said: You want to see what fondness from Jon resembles, look at his thoughts about Arya. As for whether they will meet again, they well may, but Sansa's not going north in the books anytime soon, much less fleeing to the Wall. I completely disagree that Jon is 'fond' of Arya. He quite clearly loves Arya far beyond mere fondness. I used the word "fond" carefully and precisely to denote the mild affection that I think the books DO show exists between Jon and Sansa...their thoughts of each other are both on the whole positive thoughts, and even their most negative associations with each other are not bad enough to matter. The worst thought Jon has about Sansa is about her snobbish maintenance of the distance between them due to his illegitimacy, and he only thinks of it once, and not with the anger he thought about Robb telling him he was a bastard with no rights to WF (and Jon got SO angry at that that he beat the shit out of the guy he was sparring with when he remembered that moment.) The most negative thought Sansa has about Jon is the patronizing pity she evinced for him a couple of times early on - and that has been gradually transmuting itself to admiration and understanding for how difficult it must've been for Jon to negotiate being a bastard (thus she is modeling her own impersonation of an illegitimate girl on Jon, calling herself 'bastard-brave.') No, they were not close, they did not love each other, they did not mean a great deal to each other, but blood is thicker than water, and IMO they did have that mild affection with the potential to grow closer now that so many people they valued more are gone (temporarily or permanently). Another reason I chose the word 'fond' as in "absence makes the heart grow fonder..." And I think there WILL be an opportunity for this to happen somewhat as it is happening on the show, either in the North or in the Vale (a somewhat more likely location, IMO). Edited April 11, 2018 by screamin 3 Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 (edited) I just don't see Martin continuing with this stasis in the Vale. He's going to have her sitting there waiting around for Tyrion to die and so she can marry Harry? Nope. This plot is about to be shaken up, just like Joffrey's wedding. Alayne's Winds chapter - Shadrich and Corbray are there dropping anvils about a kidnapping. These knights are desperate for gold. If the tourney ends in disaster, they'll still want a reward. A window open in LF's office suggests someone is snooping; it may be Shadrich and he knows the status of Littlefinger's accounts. He knows Alayne is Sansa. Corbray is also looking for any opportunity to betray LF, undermine his plans, while still pretending to be on his payroll. Shadrich has mentioned that he is willing to split a ransom. Myranda wants Alayne to disappear. This has to be going somewhere. Also LF is drinking more and more; he's not thinking clearly. He's growing overconfident and every chapter, he's putting the moves on Alayne. If you want to read some really gross foreshadowing for an assault, re-read passage where Arya passes under the Titan of Braavos. Throw in foreshadowing for a wildling attack, and Sansa needs to GTFO of there. Edited April 11, 2018 by Colorful Mess 2 Link to comment
Eyes High April 11, 2018 Author Share April 11, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, screamin said: There's another way she could get control of the Vale - being the indispensable mother-substitute/unrequited love of Sweetrobin, if she keeps him alive despite the machinations of LF and defeats LF. She could then use her unmarried state and her illustrious claims to negotiate for the greatest political advantages for her hand among the highest bidders - WITHOUT having to deal with the probable bullying and the legal submerging of her identity and claim and will into her husband's that a marriage would require. You're envisioning an Elizabeth I-type scenario while forgetting that Elizabeth wasn't married. 53 minutes ago, screamin said: I completely disagree that Jon is 'fond' of Arya. He quite clearly loves Arya far beyond mere fondness. I used the word "fond" carefully and precisely to denote the mild affection that I think the books DO show exists between Jon and Sansa...their thoughts of each other are both on the whole positive thoughts, and even their most negative associations with each other are not bad enough to matter. My point was that if Jon cared about Sansa even with "mild" fondness, it would be obvious. He's not stingy with his affection in his POVs. Quote The worst thought Jon has about Sansa is about her snobbish maintenance of the distance between them due to his illegitimacy Which is enough for Jon to think he misses his siblings, "even Sansa." That's pretty much what Arya says about the mummers in TWOW: she's going to miss all of them, "even" (overbearing) Izembaro and (pervy, nipple-twisting) Bobono, both of whom she clearly dislikes. It's not an endorsement. And there's no sign in subsequent books that Jon warms to Sansa or develops any fondness for her. He is wholly indifferent to the fact of her marriage to Tyrion (instead musing whether Tyrion really had it in him to murder Tywin), whereas Robb and Cat are filled with despair upon hearing of the marriage, as would be any Stark who cared about her. On the other hand, he is horrified and infuriated by the news of Arya's marriage to Ramsay Bolton and can't stop thinking about it. The difference is, clearly, that he cares about Arya and doesn't really care about Sansa, and given how Sansa and Arya behaved towards him, who could blame him? Quote The most negative thought Sansa has about Jon is the patronizing pity she evinced for him a couple of times early on - and that has been gradually transmuting itself to admiration and understanding for how difficult it must've been for Jon to negotiate being a bastard I'm sorry, but no. There is not a single passage in ASOS, AFFC or the TWOW Alayne chapter where Sansa shows any admiration or understanding whatsoever for what Jon went through, revises her opinion of Jon, or evinces the slightest bit of remorse for how she treated him. In fact, the passage you cited previously completely contradicts your statement, since the first time she mentions Jon in AFFC is to think that she hadn't thought of Jon in ages. So Sansa has been masquerading as a bastard for months and hasn't thought once of Jon, which shows again how callous Sansa can be when it comes to Jon's bastardy, since her own ordeal as a bastard did not lead her to think of how she treated Jon or how hard it must have been for Jon to be treated as Alayne is treated. Not even once. In that same passage, Sansa reflects that it would be sweet to see Jon again, even though "he was only her half-brother," because with Bran, Robb and Rickon dead he's the only brother she has left, showing she still doesn't get it. She still sees Jon's bastardy as putting him a distant second to her "real" family, and hasn't changed her appreciation of Jon at all. Sansa fans are always going on and on about how empathetic and compassionate Sansa supposedly is, but she has not an ounce of genuine compassion for Jon's plight as a bastard, even when forced to live as a bastard herself. It's really quite something. Quote thus she is modeling her own impersonation of an illegitimate girl on Jon, calling herself 'bastard-brave.' No, she isn't, because she developed her Alayne persona without reference to Jon and hadn't thought of Jon in ages until Myranda brought him up. "Bastard brave" is likely a reference to Mya "I won't fall" Stone, whose courage Sansa seems to admire. Quote No, they were not close, they did not love each other Forget love, they didn't and don't even like each other. Edited April 11, 2018 by Eyes High 4 Link to comment
Colorful Mess April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 16 hours ago, anamika said: We already know who the grey girl is. The grey girl has reached the Wall already. The grey girl is Alys Karstark. There is no connection between Alys Karstark and Sansa in the story. None at all. These are nothing more than efforts to once again give Arya's story to Sansa. Alys/Sansa parallels: - Northern girls - Their brothers and heirs to their Houses both died in the War of the Five Kings - Evil uncle attempts to make a power play through them and arranges their marriage (Arnolf/LF) - Were to be married to a cousin (Cregan/SR) - A "Harry the Heir" is involved in both (Alys's brother Harry/Harry Hardying) - Both like dancing and aren't opposed to girly things (weddings, dresses, flirting) - Both are seeking protection from people who want to steal their respective claims That's enough to go on for a connection and develop a theory. This isn't Varys is a merman. 1 Link to comment
Stella April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 12 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said: That's enough to go on for a connection and develop a theory. This isn't Varys is a merman. LOL Except theories which put Sansa anywhere near Jon are verboten. 3 Link to comment
Happy Harpy April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said: Not quite. Mance's plot needs resolution. The "hidey holes" he mentioned when Mel described the grey girl is a chekhov. That's significant knowledge that has yet to be applied. He could end up helping Sansa somehow with that info. He could also provide the horse. Theon thinks of a "winged horse" in WF, and Mance mentions stealing a horse during his infiltration of Robert's feast. Moreover, Theon thinks that Mance is going to die for the wrong girl. I don't believe this is going to happen, because his arc is inspired by Bael (Abel), and Mance isn't the fool; he's the one who fools others. His goal would be to "steal" an actual Stark daughter. Mance may also be the new "Reek," but it's iffy if Ramsay has actually captured Mance. Most importantly, when Mance met Jon, he said he got a look at all the faces of the Starks at the feast, and this seems like another chekhov. He would be the only person in Winterfell to recognize her as Sansa, and he would know that he fulfilled his mission to trick the kneelers twice over. Jon's intentions to save his sister (and her friend) would be serendipitous foresight. It's after all of this, when she rides North, that she falls off the horse and dies. "Not quite" what, if I may? I don't see where your answer connects to mine, which was about Rickon's death being swapped with Book! Sansa's endgame if she ever falls into Ramsay's clutches...which is a big huge rather impossible if, since GRRM wouldn't have made a public comment about not getting D&D's choice, were she to be at his mercy at any time according to his plan. Edited April 11, 2018 by Happy Harpy Link to comment
WindyNights April 11, 2018 Share April 11, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, anamika said: That plot point has already been done with it in the books. Jon gave a bad-ass speech in the shield hall and rallied the wildlings to fight for him and go kick Ramsay's ass. If anything Jon is going to come back with an even greater desire to go kick Ramsay's ass. And Theon is going to be there for Ramsay's ending. If you are expecting Jon and Sansa to meet in the books like on the show, you are going to be sorely disappointed. These are two characters who have nothing to do with each other and whose plots and stories are completely different. If they do meet, it's not going to happen until the very end. Like many others, I don't think Sansa is going North. She has to get control of the Vale by marrying Harry the Heir - and she can't announce her identity as Sansa Stark until Tyrion is dead. There's still a long way to go for the resolution of that plot. Plus, GRRM has indicated that LF and Varys will clash as well. So Sansa may get involved in the fAegon story when Dany gets there for the Dance of Dragons 2.0. The food stores of the Vale are no doubt important and will help when the North falls and the survivors flee south. No point for Sansa to be involved in DoD 2.0. LF is trying to take the Riverlands, the North and Vale for Sansa first. It's true that Aegon is a king to be but the foreshadowing is pointing towards Arianne marrying him. No room for Sansa there. Sansa doesn't need to take control of the Vale. Harry does and they both just need to convince the war-hungry lords of the Vale who love Ned Stark to go North and kick out the Boltons. Seems easy enough. They don't actually have to marry at the Vale. In fact, I think Sansa/LF may set the wedding once Winterfell has been taken. And their will be more weddings in TWOW according to GRRM. Edited April 11, 2018 by WindyNights Link to comment
anamika April 12, 2018 Share April 12, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, screamin said: No, but Robb is dead, and still-living Stannis is unfortunately still key to the defense of the North in the books. And Stannis would NOT put up with Jon declaring himself KiTN no matter what Robb's will said. So if Jon declared himself KiTN while Stannis was alive, that would be an act of selfishness at the expense of the North that I think would be very uncharacteristic of Jon. The North is already picking sides while Stannis is still in the game. The little games being played by the Northerners inside and outside Winterfell have no bearing on Stannis. The only Northern support Stannis has is from the mountain clans and Jon. At the end of the day, it will be the Northerners who will decide which Stark gets to be KITN. The older, wiser eldest Stark who Robb legitimized and named king - to which will there were several witnesses including Edmure Tully, Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover - the mountain clans marching for Arya and Manderly for Rickon. Besides Stannis is not going to last much longer - I think he wins the Battle for Winterfell, but the Northern houses plotting against the Boltons will soon take over. 9 hours ago, screamin said: The fact that Jon was the elder doesn't mean that Jon MUST necessarily become the heir on his legitimization...even within the world of Westeros it seems that often a legitimized bastard's right comes AFTER the trueborn children regardless of age. Jon telling himself that Robb would be Totes Okay with him shouldering Rickon aside to take the throne for himself would be Jon telling himself lies for selfish reasons - lies that would also have bad consequences for the North, leading to her vassals fighting among themselves for the Starks' competing claims. That would, again, be a selfish act that would be highly uncharacteristic of Jon. The position of a legitimized bastard is unclear and it's up to who gets to decide. That's why I specifically said 'if the rest of the Starks don't fight against it' in my statement. As I said, I can see Arya supporting both Jon and Bran as KITN. The Northerners may think that Rickon is too young to take over. The Northerners may decide to follow the will. We don't know how it happens, but only that it does. As per the show, Jon DOES become KITN - the only way that happens is per Robb's will. So Jon does take up the position despite Rickon, Bran and Arya being alive. Jon is plenty selfish if the situation requires it. Despite knowing how it was growing up without a mother's love, he separates Gilly from her baby. He threatens to behead the hostage children - and the heads of the mountain clans believe that he would do it. He can be quite ruthless if it's necessary. 9 hours ago, screamin said: IMO, Jon would only be willing to become Lord of WF if Stannis is dead AND he thought Sansa was permanently a creature of the Lannisters AND he genuinely believed/knew Rickon/Bran/Arya was also dead. We already know that Sansa is a non-consideration for Jon when he thinks on taking up Stannis' offer. We KNOW this. His POV shows that Jon does not care that Sansa is alive - he would have taken WF if the other factors - namely the burning of the Weirwoods - was not a necessity. It's not about Sansa being a creature of the Lannisters. It's about her marriage to Tyrion - as long as she remains married to him and he is alive, she will be out of consideration for WF. This is a decision made by Robb and Cat, who loved her, so I doubt that Jon is going to lose much sleep over passing over Sansa on his way to the throne. 8 hours ago, screamin said: The worst thought Jon has about Sansa is about her snobbish maintenance of the distance between them due to his illegitimacy, and he only thinks of it once, and not with the anger he thought about Robb telling him he was a bastard with no rights to WF (and Jon got SO angry at that that he beat the shit out of the guy he was sparring with when he remembered that moment.) Surely, you can understand that words from a loved one hurts more than words from someone that you really don't care much about? Jon is angry about Robb's words because he loves Robb and hence his words hurt more. Which is why Robb's will is going to mean the world to Jon. On the other hand, Jon is indifferent to Sansa and rather casual about Sansa's snobbishness and behavior towards him. He could not care less about where she is and what her situation is with respect to Tyrion. His reaction to hearing about the Sansa/Tyrion marriage and the Arya/Ramsay marriage should tell us everything about the vast difference between how he feels for Sansa and Arya. His anger over Arya is so much that he wants to throttle Ramsay with his bare hands. When he hears about Sansa/Tyrion his reaction is 'Eh, I wonder how Tyrion is doing with his kinslayer status...' - complete indifference to Sansa. That's pretty terrible actually - he could not spare a thought for the sister forcefully married off to the Lannisters. Jon x Sansa shippers or people who hype up their relationship baffle me. These are two characters who have no relationship at all in the books. And while their reunion on the show was great, it pretty much turns antagonistic over power soon after. Sansa starts lying to Jon, thinks he should take orders from her and undermines his authority as king in front of the lords. Jon has no issues being KITN over Ned's trueborn heir. I found their relationship to be rather unlikable on the show - pretty much every scene was Sansa whinging about something. Her reunion with Arya was a bust and apparently Bran can't show emotions anymore as the 3ER - hilariously, the leaked script outline states that Sansa is disappointed with Bran coming back to WF because she would have to give up her position as Lady of Winterfell. Which is why I am looking forward to Jon-Arya next season. Knowing D&D's shitty writing and their lack of interest in Arya as a character, I am not expecting much and keeping my hopes low. But I still hope they will give us something next season with regards to these two. Edited April 12, 2018 by anamika 6 Link to comment
screamin April 12, 2018 Share April 12, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Eyes High said: You're envisioning an Elizabeth I-type scenario while forgetting that Elizabeth wasn't married. Well-spotted, Elizabeth I was the analogy I was trying to draw. In fact, I think I said so outright in an earlier post. And yes, I really do remember she's married. However, we know the marriage has not been consummated, and as Tywin scolded Tyrion, a marriage unconsummated can be set aside. Not only do WE know it's not been consummated, the Red Keep seems to have general knowledge of it. There was no bedding ceremony, no public exam of the bloodied sheets, and Tywin keeps urging Tyrion to get it over with and make it official, even if he's not planning to get her pregnant till she's older. Sansa can prove her virginity with a physical exam, even without the conspicuous peril Tyrion's life is currently in. And even if it weren't so, the legal fiction of an unconsummated marriage has been VERY convenient in both Westeros and the real medieval world when two interested parties WANT to get married. Margaery is one case in Westeros. IRL, Catherine of Aragon is one case. As for Elizabeth I, probably few of the crowned heads of Europe really believed the Virgin Queen was a virgin. With the rich prize that the Kingdom of England was, it really didn't matter - and thus Elizabeth had a powerful bargaining chip. And with her claims, so does Sansa. Of course, to use those claims for her own benefit, she would have to go public with her true identity. I agree with the person who mentioned that this is likely to happen sooner rather than later, because LF is getting overconfident and sloppy. LF may prefer to wait a few years till spring arrives, Tyrion dies and a young Vale knight's fancy lightly turns to thoughts of massacres, but GRRM won't be that boring about it. Bronze Yohn Royce would dearly love for someone to get rid of LF, and he met Sansa when she was a child and almost recognized her when he saw her in the Vale. Myranda Royce knows SOMETHING. Kettleblack's three sons are all in captivity in KL, LF will do nothing to help them, and Lothar Brune is SUPPOSED to keep an eye on Kettleblack to make sure he doesn't betray LF, but he likes Mya Stone, so just MIGHT be induced to help - not to mention the Mad Mouse seems to notice something about Sansa. Shit is about to go down. If Sansa can keep herself and SR alive and take down LF, she can claim Bronze Yohn's help and reveal herself safely. The Vale WANTED to take sides against the Lannisters, and LF was Cersei's creature. Now the Lannisters are weakened and about to lose their Tyrrell allies. The Vale has food, an intact army and can take power over the entire continent, beginning with the Freys on their doorstep, for Fun, Honor and Profit. If Sansa plays her cards right, she can sit in a favored spot at SR's right hand and state to his various allies that her hand in marriage will go to whoever strikes the hardest blows against the Starks' enemies. ...OR, if she fucks it up, she could very well find herself fleeing north on a horse to the Wall. We shall see. Quote So Sansa has been masquerading as a bastard for months and hasn't thought once of Jon, which shows again how callous Sansa can be when it comes to Jon's bastardy, I beg your pardon...it's true she does not mention Jon directly as she constructs her 'Alayne' persona. I was thinking of this analysis, which points out that Sansa seems to be modeling 'Alayne' after Jon; Alayne is older than Sansa at 14 (the age Jon was when she last saw him), Alayne is 'bastard-brave' (Sansa was horrified for Jon's sake when she saw the NW brother and realized just how tough an outfit he had fallen into - a disillusionment Jon ran into himself at the Wall), Alayne even dislikes dancing the way Jon does. I found it convincing, though of course you may not. Quote My point was that if Jon cared about Sansa even with "mild" fondness, it would be obvious. He's not stingy with his affection in his POVs. I'd say Jon isn't stingy with his dislikes...and we see he definitely dislikes Theon early on, but shows no dislike of Sansa at all comparable to his obvious dislike of Theon. Jon remembers Sansa singing as part of his nostalgia for home, Jon remembers Sansa giving him well-intentioned and ultimately useful advice - IMO, to remember that and use it instead of just brushing it aside as distasteful images and words from a distasteful person means you DO feel somewhat positive toward the person. YMMV. Quote Sansa is largely indifferent to Jon. She realizes in AFFC that she hasn't thought of him in a very long time (which is true, since the last time she thinks of him before then is in ACOK), True. But the moment she does think of him then is very sweet, praying for him in the sept: "She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall." You might say the fact that she called Jon 'her bastard brother' makes this prayer and the feeling behind it of no value. But does this sound familiar? "Bran's bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer."... "He put a hand on Bran's shoulder, and Bran looked over at his bastard brother. " This is in Bran's first chapter of GoT. Does this mean that Bran at that moment has no affection for Jon? IMO, it just means that children learn from adults how to think of others and it takes awhile to learn what they are taught may not be quite right. Quote He is wholly indifferent to the fact of her marriage to Tyrion (instead musing whether Tyrion really had it in him to murder Tywin)...On the other hand, he is horrified and infuriated by the news of Arya's marriage to Ramsay Bolton and can't stop thinking about it. The difference is, clearly, that he cares about Arya and doesn't really care about Sansa, and given how Sansa and Arya behaved towards him, who could blame him? I don't know...might the difference actually be that unlike Robb and Catelyn, Jon spent a lot of time under favorable circumstances with Tyrion and feels he's a fairly decent person at bottom? Whereas Ramsey Bolton's ill-fame has spread far and wide by the time he married 'Arya'? I grant you that Jon truly loves Arya and feels for Sansa at best a vague good-will. But do you think that means that Jon would be 'wholly indifferent' if it were Sansa in Ramsay's hands, not Arya - that he would even feel she got what she deserved for the way she 'behaved toward him'? If you think that, you think a lot worse of Jon than I do. Just want to clarify that I'm not a Jonsa shipper - but it just seems to me that the platonic but close relationship Jon and Sansa have on the show IS something like the one that can develop between them in the books - and since I like them both, I hope it will happen so, and think signs point to it happening so. Edited April 12, 2018 by screamin 3 Link to comment
SeanC April 12, 2018 Share April 12, 2018 18 minutes ago, screamin said: ...OR, if she fucks it up, she could very well find herself fleeing north on a horse to the Wall. We shall see. No way would that ever happen. In winter that would be an extremely trying journey for even the most experienced frontiersman, let alone a 14-year-old girl who has never traveled anywhere by herself and on her own resources. 2 Link to comment
screamin April 12, 2018 Share April 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, SeanC said: No way would that ever happen. In winter that would be an extremely trying journey for even the most experienced frontiersman, let alone a 14-year-old girl who has never traveled anywhere by herself and on her own resources. Yeah, I don't think so either. But since it's been mentioned so much, I thought I'd just give a nod to the possibility. Really, for better or worse, I think Sansa's story stays in the Vale. I also think it would be hilarious if sickly, whiny Sweetrobin is among the few survivors at the end of the story...but perhaps I'm just weird. 2 Link to comment
anamika April 12, 2018 Share April 12, 2018 (edited) 41 minutes ago, screamin said: I beg your pardon...it's true she does not mention Jon directly as she constructs her 'Alayne' persona. I was thinking of this analysis, which points out that Sansa seems to be modeling 'Alayne' after Jon; Alayne is older than Sansa at 14 (the age Jon was when she last saw him), Alayne is 'bastard-brave' (Sansa was horrified for Jon's sake when she saw the NW brother and realized just how tough an outfit he had fallen into - a disillusionment Jon ran into himself at the Wall), Alayne even dislikes dancing the way Jon does. I found it convincing, though of course you may not. A Pawn to Player analysis! That's the infamous Jon/Sansa essay that has gems like this: Quote Both Jon and Sansa encounter "the pomegranate": Sansa is offered a literal pomegranate by Littlefinger, while Jon's rulership arc in ADWD was confronted at every turn by the Old Pomegranate, Bowen Marsh. The pomegranate, in Greek mythology, is what causes Persephone to become Queen of the Dead in perpetuity, and it's the reason winter comes in the first place---winter, in Greek mythology, being viewed as Demeter's grief at her separation from her daughter when Persephone descends every year to rule in the Underworld. The pomegrante causes Persephone to undertake two disparate roles, to become a creature of two separate worlds: she is both the Goddess of Spring and the Queen of the Underworld simultaneously (and concurrently), she rules in both the sunlight and the darkness. That idea---of a person moving between two contradictory spheres of existence, of a person gaining strength by a capacity to move between the darkness and the light---is a theme GRRM has played around with in other works, so there's an excellent chance he's exploring it in ASOIAF as well. ?????? Look, anyone can make up fanfiction about how Sansa was subconsciously modeling herself after Jon. But the fact is, the character herself plainly states that she forgot about Jon and was only reminded of him when Myranda brings him up. 41 minutes ago, screamin said: I'd say Jon isn't stingy with his dislikes...and we see he definitely dislikes Theon early on, but shows no dislike of Sansa at all comparable to his obvious dislike of Theon. Jon remembers Sansa singing as part of his nostalgia for home, Jon remembers Sansa giving him well-intentioned and ultimately useful advice - IMO, to remember that and use it instead of just brushing it aside as distasteful images and words from a distasteful person means you DO feel somewhat positive toward the person. YMMV. I personally think that Jon is one of the most open-minded and least misogynistic male character in the books, but he still has sexist moments - his jokes about the Septa and Selyse, his disdain for girls like Sansa ("A warrior princess . . . not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her"), show that growing up Arya was the female figure he looked up to. Also that bit about Jon recalling Sansa's advice really sounds like she was being her usual condescending, snobby self to a bastard. 41 minutes ago, screamin said: I don't know...might the difference actually be that unlike Robb and Catelyn, Jon spent a lot of time under favorable circumstances with Tyrion and feels he's a fairly decent person at bottom? Whereas Ramsey Bolton's ill-fame has spread far and wide by the time he married 'Arya'? I grant you that Jon truly loves Arya and feels for Sansa at best a vague good-will. But do you think that means that Jon would be 'wholly indifferent' if it were Sansa in Ramsay's hands, not Arya - that he would even feel she got what she deserved for the way she 'behaved toward him'? If you think that, you think a not worse of Jon than I do. And so because he thinks kindly of Tyrion, he is not concerned for the sister who is forced into marriage with him? Does he wonder about where she is and what has happened to her, now that Tyrion is a kin/kingslayer? Does he wonder about Sansa in Tyrion's bed? Like, why is he more concerned about Tyrion than Sansa?! Let me ask you this. Do you think that Jon would have broken his NW oath and rallied the wildlings to go attack WF if Sansa was with Ramsay? Remember that though he was sorely tempted, he did not break his oaths for either Ned or Robb. I don't think he would have done it. Not because he thought that she would have deserved it - but because he would most likely not think on it too much and ignore it. Just like he seems to not care that Sansa has been forced into marriage with the enemy. His thoughts about Arya with Ramsay were deeply personal - he thinks that Arya would attack Ramsay and get killed, he imagines her in Ramsay's bed and goes crazy, he wants Arya with him, Arya is his heart etc. There's a deep love there which affects Jon so much that he does something dishonorable - puts love over duty. Edited April 12, 2018 by anamika 5 Link to comment
Eyes High April 12, 2018 Author Share April 12, 2018 1 hour ago, screamin said: Just want to clarify that I'm not a Jonsa shipper - but it just seems to me that the platonic but close relationship Jon and Sansa have on the show IS something like the one that can develop between them in the books - and since I like them both, I hope it will happen so, and think signs point to it happening so. @anamika covered most of what I would have said in reply to your post, but I will say this. You may not be a Jonsa shipper, but you are repeating uncritically several of the inaccurate views held by Jonsa shippers regarding Jon and Sansa in the books: 1. Jon and Sansa care about each other and had a good relationship (they don't). 2. Jon bears Sansa no ill will for her attitude towards him (he does). 3. Sansa living as a bastard has given her a deeper understanding and appreciation of Jon (it hasn't, she never once thinks of him until Myranda brings him up). 4. Sansa's stint as a bastard has cured her of her snobbish attitude towards Jon (it hasn't, she still thinks that Jon is "only her half-brother"). 5. Sansa modeled her bastard persona after Jon (she didn't, and in fact never thought once of Jon while living as Alayne until Myranda mentioned him). "Bastard-brave" is much more likely a reference to Mya, since a) Sansa thinks she was "an older woman and bastard-brave," b) Sansa openly admires Mya's bravery in that very same POV chapter, and c) Sansa has never thought of Jon as brave. 6. The grey girl on a dying horse could be Sansa (there's no way Sansa's fleeing to the Wall). A lot of these arguments, particularly the "Sansa modeled Alayne after Jon" argument, seem to be attempts to drum up a close connection between Jon and Sansa in the books when there is none. For two characters who are related and who grew up as siblings, they really have very little to do with each other. I don't see any mutual hatred, but they certainly don't care about each other: Sansa never spares a thought for Jon's struggles as a bastard (and rarely thinks of him), and Jon rarely thinks of Sansa and shrugs at Sansa being forcibly married off and presumably raped (whereas the thought of the same thing happening to Arya sends him into anguished rage). 32 minutes ago, anamika said: Look, anyone can make up fanfiction about how Sansa was subconsciously modeling herself after Jon. But the fact is, the character herself plainly states that she forgot about Jon and was only reminded of him when Myranda brings him up. Heh, and agreed. Quote And so because he thinks kindly of Tyrion, he is not concerned for the sister who is forced into marriage with him? Does he wonder about where she is and what has happened to her, now that Tyrion is a kin/kingslayer? Does he wonder about Sansa in Tyrion's bed? Like, why is he more concerned about Tyrion than Sansa?! Exactly! You'd think Jon would be much more concerned about Sansa's treatment at Tyrion's hands if he had just learned that Tyrion had actually murdered his own father! He isn't, though. He couldn't care less about what the fact that Tyrion murdered his father means for what he may have done to Sansa. He just...can't be bothered. It's pretty cold. 6 Link to comment
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