domina89 October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, GrailKing said: There is nothing in book or show to equate Sansa to Cersei, she's far from Cersei as Jon is from Ares, Joffery and Bobby B. She'll be closer to the QOT, House Stark version. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Needless to say, I think there are plenty of examples- especially in the show- to liken her to Cersei. She's at the very least a pupil in training. Her behavior in season six alone should be proof enough, and then we have Jon pointedly calling her out on her admiration for Cersei this season. Not to mention she's been mentored by Littlefinger and the QOT to some extent as well. I don't think she will become crazy evil like Cersei, but the potential for her to become ruthless to protect both herself and her family is definitely there, that's all I am saying. Regarding the final season, I think it would be interesting if the first episode opened the way the series premiere opened- with Winterfell preparing for the king's arrival (Jon) and Arya rushing out to meet him similar to how she rushed out to be the first one to see King Robert. That would be a nice way to bookend the series and I just REALLY REALLY want a glorious reunion for those two. Edited October 24, 2017 by domina89 Link to comment
Eyes High October 24, 2017 Author Share October 24, 2017 54 minutes ago, herbz said: I haven't actually read the Alayne sample chapter so I need to do that, but my interpretation of Sansa and Robin isn't too far off from yours- I think she's deliberately refusing to confront the reality of what's Littlefinger is doing/is going to do to him. Which is sort of what I meant by her constructing an alternative reality for herself. I do think Littlefinger has started to slowly weaken Robin though, and I don't think Sansa is entirely clueless to that. She doesn't like it, she tries to remain empathetic to him because that's who she is, but she's going with it (because really, what other choice does she have?) But YMMV! Usually in the books, when Sansa is papering over reality with comforting delusions, we can see it in her thought process, like her whole "Petyr is warm and gentle, and yeah, LF is no friend of mine, but I guess LF is only a mask that Petyr wears, and at any rate he's the only friend I have" bit in AFFC. In the TWOW sample chapter, she still seems to think that Sweetrobin will live long enough to marry, since she thinks that at least his wife will love his hair, and there's no second guessing herself over the sweetsleep. 21 minutes ago, domina89 said: We'll just have to agree to disagree. Needless to say, I think there are plenty of examples- especially in the show- to liken her to Cersei. She's at the very least a pupil in training. Her behavior in season six alone should be proof enough, and then we have Jon pointedly calling her out on her admiration for Cersei this season. Not to mention she's been mentored by Littlefinger and the QOT to some extent as well. I don't think she will become crazy evil like Cersei, but the potential for her to become ruthless to protect both herself and her family is definitely there, that's all I am saying. With the emerging queen vs. queen contrast with Cersei and Dany (including pregnancy), and Dany emerging as the likeliest candidate for the YMBQ, I wonder if Sansa will have any sort of final reckoning with Cersei. She did say that she wouldn't set foot in KL as long as Cersei is queen. 1 Link to comment
herbz October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 Time to go read that Alayne chapter then! I'm sure you're right. I wonder if we're going to get a reminder of the YMBQ prophecy. Lena did say in an interview after the finale that she played Cersei encountering Dany for the first time with that prophecy in mind. 2 Link to comment
screamin October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, herbz said: I haven't actually read the Alayne sample chapter so I need to do that, but my interpretation of Sansa and Robin isn't too far off from yours- I think she's deliberately refusing to confront the reality of what's Littlefinger is doing/is going to do to him. Which is sort of what I meant by her constructing an alternative reality for herself. I do think Littlefinger has started to slowly weaken Robin though, and I don't think Sansa is entirely clueless to that. She doesn't like it, she tries to remain empathetic to him because that's who she is, but she's going with it (because really, what other choice does she have?) But YMMV! I think the difference between our viewpoints is that you think that it's a foregone conclusion that Book Sansa will inevitably go along with LF's murder of SR once his plan is revealed to her. Whereas I think that once Sansa is ordered by LF to make sure SR is poisoned while he goes off on his alibi trip, probably leaving Ser Lothar Brune watching her to make sure she obeys orders, she will be facing her moral event horizon, and how she decides which way she goes on this crossroads will determine whether she is a redeemable character or not. If she goes along with the murder, she will have condemned herself to villainy irrevocably. But if the prospect of becoming a cold-blooded premeditated murderer and kinslayer forces her into trying to foil LF's plans, avoiding the pitfalls around her (Lothar Brune, Lyn Corbray) and using the tools GRRM has carefully placed around her for her potential aid (Bronze Yohn Royce, Mya Stone, who Lothar Brune is known to be in love with and who seems to be an honest girl Sansa has a good rapport with, Myranda Royce, who seems to know a lot more than she's telling) she not only redeems herself as a character, she passes the test of being a capable player in the game, and can thus more credibly go on to being a political mover and shaker in her own right in the story. If she DOES decide to go along with SR's murder, I will be disappointed, both because I like Sansa as a character and also because I think it would be bad writing to just have her passively and spinelessly go along with a murder that has been so predictably and boringly laid out years in advance, with no particular narrative surprise or interest. Edited October 24, 2017 by screamin 4 Link to comment
Eyes High October 24, 2017 Author Share October 24, 2017 39 minutes ago, herbz said: Time to go read that Alayne chapter then! I'm sure you're right. I wonder if we're going to get a reminder of the YMBQ prophecy. Lena did say in an interview after the finale that she played Cersei encountering Dany for the first time with that prophecy in mind. Yes. I'm definitely feeling Dany as the YMBQ. I think Sweetrobin might just make it out of the books, since he doesn't seem to have much going for him (other than nice hair), the odds seem so stacked against him (epilepsy, poison, world's worst stepdad, etc.), and no one expects him to amount to much of anything. In ASOIAF world, it's the golden boys and girls--the good-looking, healthy and charming ones who seem to have everything going for them--who are invariably fucked, while their less attractive, less popular, less charming, or even sickly/disabled family members tend to outlive them: Brandon vs. Ned, Jaime/Cersei vs. Tyrion (probably), Oberyn vs. Doran, Robb vs. Jon, etc. GRRM has a pattern, which is how we know that the charming, strapping, and good-looking Harry the Heir is a dead man walking, and Sweetrobin may not be. 3 Link to comment
herbz October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Eyes High said: Yes. I'm definitely feeling Dany as the YMBQ. I think Sweetrobin might just make it out of the books, since he doesn't seem to have much going for him (other than nice hair), the odds seem so stacked against him (epilepsy, poison, world's worst stepdad, etc.), and no one expects him to amount to much of anything. In ASOIAF world, it's the golden boys and girls--the good-looking, healthy and charming ones who seem to have everything going for them--who are invariably fucked, while their less attractive, less popular, less charming, or even sickly/disabled family members tend to outlive them: Brandon vs. Ned, Jaime/Cersei vs. Tyrion (probably), Oberyn vs. Doran, Robb vs. Jon, etc. GRRM has a pattern, which is how we know that the charming, strapping, and good-looking Harry the Heir is a dead man walking, and Sweetrobin may not be. Sansa seems like the only wildcard candidate now on the show at least- I know a lot of fans of show!Sansa feel it's her because Cersei underestimated her and wouldn't see her coming, but you know if we'd had a Cersei POV in books 1-3 she'd have been freaking out about this pretty girl coming to supplant her position at Joffrey's side in the same way she later obsesses over Margaery. My long held book theory was that it was Brienne 'the Beauty' (it just seemed a very subversive, writerly thing to do), but the show does seem to be pointing at Daenerys. 'I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things'. I actually think Jaime might stand a shot at making it out alive precisely because he's also a member of this motley crew (he might still kick the bucket at any time, but until I see it on the page I will never buy that GRRM means for him and Cersei to die together in some sort of dramatic murder/suicide. There is so much book foreshadowing otherwise). I would find it rather hilarious if Sweetrobin is still rolling around the Vale when all is said and done. The Eyrie seems like a good place to hole up- can the Others climb?! Forget the Starks and Targaryens, these are the pressing questions I want answered in S8 :P Edited October 24, 2017 by herbz 5 Link to comment
screamin October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 I think the YMBQ part of the prophecy has kind of fallen by the wayside on the show, because all Cersei's three children have died at different times and different causes that can't be attributed to just one person, regardless of how much younger and more beautiful she may be. Link to comment
MarySNJ October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, screamin said: I think the YMBQ part of the prophecy has kind of fallen by the wayside on the show, because all Cersei's three children have died at different times and different causes that can't be attributed to just one person, regardless of how much younger and more beautiful she may be. IIRC, and I may be misremembering, the YMBQ isn't directly related to the second part of the prophesy about "gold will be their shrouds" I don't think the YMBQ is the cause of her children's deaths, and it doesn't say when the YMBQ will emerge in Cersei's story. Taken literally, the YMBQ could be Sansa, Margaery or Daenerys, although beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Cersei seems to have certainly taken it that way. But I'm with herbz in that that the "beauty" could refer to inner beauty and it will be Brienne winning Jaime's heart or at least drawing Jaime away from her by moral example, as Jaime would at that point be the only person Cersei loves left in her life. That sort of fits how prophesy works in the ASOIAFverse; it'll bite your pr#ck off every time. 4 Link to comment
Eyes High October 24, 2017 Author Share October 24, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, herbz said: Sansa seems like the only wildcard candidate now on the show at least- I know a lot of fans of show!Sansa feel it's her because Cersei underestimated her and wouldn't see her coming, but you know if we'd had a Cersei POV in books 1-3 she'd have been freaking out about this pretty girl coming to supplant her position at Joffrey's side in the same way she later obsesses over Margaery. My long held book theory was that it was Brienne 'the Beauty' (it just seemed a very subversive, writerly thing to do), but the show does seem to be pointing at Daenerys. Also, Dany is the only non-Cersei queen running around. Quote 'I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things'. Yeah, I don't think GRRM's love of the underdog is any secret. His main five characters are all underdogs, which is why I wouldn't be surprised to see them come out on top in the end, although what "coming out on top" might look like will be very different from character to character. 13 minutes ago, MarySNJ said: IIRC, and I may be misremembering, the YMBQ isn't directly related to the second part of the prophesy about "gold will be their shrouds" I don't think the YMBQ is the cause of her children's deaths, and it doesn't say when the YMBQ will emerge in Cersei's story. I've always thought that the YMBQ prophecy in the books as it has played out is dumb, because Book Cersei has already lost a good deal that she holds dear, and there's no one single person, let along an identifiable YMBQ, responsible. Her pride? Walk of shame. Her beauty? Age and booze. Tywin? Tyrion. Joffrey? The Tyrells. Jaime? I think she has only herself to blame for losing him. The only way the prophecy works in either the books or the show is if you assume that Cersei hasn't yet lost anything she holds dear, which is nonsense in my opinion. Going back to the endgame, one possible scene I've been batting around is a newly-crowned Jon and Dany sitting down with a group of lords/ladies representing the seven regions: Stormlands: Gendry (legitimized, I'm assuming) Reach: Sam Iron Islands: whoever survives of Theon and Yara (if I had to guess, I'd say Theon) Vale: Robin North: Sansa Westerlands: Tyrion Dorne: No idea. There's a throwaway line in the S7 script outlines about there being multiple families fighting for control of Dorne after the deaths of the Sand Snakes. It would be a nice way of tying everything together, in my opinion. Edited October 24, 2017 by Eyes High 2 Link to comment
screamin October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, MarySNJ said: IIRC, and I may be misremembering, the YMBQ isn't directly related to the second part of the prophesy about "gold will be their shrouds" I don't think the YMBQ is the cause of her children's deaths, and it doesn't say when the YMBQ will emerge in Cersei's story. Taken literally, the YMBQ could be Sansa, Margaery or Daenerys, although beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Cersei seems to have certainly taken it that way. But I'm with herbz in that that the "beauty" could refer to inner beauty and it will be Brienne winning Jaime's heart or at least drawing Jaime away from her by moral example, as Jaime would at that point be the only person Cersei loves left in her life. That sort of fits how prophesy works in the ASOIAFverse; it'll bite your pr#ck off every time. I think it's like what Eyes High says here: Quote The only way the prophecy works in either the books or the show is if you assume that Cersei hasn't yet lost anything she holds dear, which is nonsense in my opinion. Cersei's children are a huge part of what she's held dear in her life. If there is no one woman who is ultimately responsible for all their deaths, then the part of the prophecy that says the YMBQ takes all she holds dear stops making sense...which is what I think has happened on the show. In the books? Well, both Sansa and Margaery could be considered to have had a hand in Joffrey's death; I suppose it's still possible that either of them could also somehow be responsible for Tommen and Myrcella being lost to their mother through death or some other estrangement, but I think it would be pretty farfetched. Edited October 24, 2017 by screamin 2 Link to comment
SeanC October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 4 hours ago, Eyes High said: Going back to the endgame, one possible scene I've been batting around is a newly-crowned Jon and Dany sitting down with a group of lords/ladies representing the seven regions: Stormlands: Gendry (legitimized, I'm assuming) Reach: Sam Iron Islands: whoever survives of Theon and Yara (if I had to guess, I'd say Theon) Vale: Robin North: Sansa Westerlands: Tyrion Dorne: No idea. There's a throwaway line in the S7 script outlines about there being multiple families fighting for control of Dorne after the deaths of the Sand Snakes. It would be a nice way of tying everything together, in my opinion. I could see that being nice, though they might just have Edmure there and ignore the Dornish, who lack any recognizable character anyway. Link to comment
MadMouse October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 2 hours ago, SeanC said: I could see that being nice, though they might just have Edmure there and ignore the Dornish, who lack any recognizable character anyway. Oberyn did mention his eight daughters so we could get a throw away line about a Sarella or Elia being legitimized. Link to comment
WindyNights October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, tangerine95 said: Didn't Stannis lose a big part of his army and couldn't invade Kings Landing again or anywhere else so the north and their help if he'll help them was his only option?I don't think his mind was only on helping the north and not on how to win himself the throne.He kept asking for the free folk to bend the knee and asking Jon to do the same and he'll make him warden of the north.Even sent letters to other northern houses asking to bend the knee and we saw Lyanna refuse like probably all of them did because most were afraid enough of the Boltons that they refused Ned's kids let alone Stannis. Yeah Dany went north to save Jon and probably Jorah and she had personal motivation but I think that's fine.She didn't agree with the mission in the first place and she argued against it and her actually going was a reckless and foolish choice for a queen even tho I loved that she did it.She risked her life and her dragons for like 7 people,it isn't the smartest thing for a queen to do especially when without her everything they want to accomplish falls apart and she literally can't be replaced.She showed plenty of times that she doesn't need a personal connection to save and help people before so I think she's proven she'll do that enough by now. I don't get how it's Dany's fault the wall fell and they got a dragon?I don't think it's any characters fault and I get how none of them considered it would come to that.But why is Dany singled out to blame and not for example Tyrion who proposed the plan in the first place especially when we later see all his plans were made with keeping his family alive in mind or Jon who wouldn't back down from the plan even when people told him it's dumb and dangerous? Well it wasn't his only option. Tywin thought that Stannis would go for Dorne just after Oberyn's death and feared Doran and Stannis allying with each other. And Stannis goes North because Davos convinced that he had to prove himself worthy of the crown by defending the realm. A king defends his people. Hence Stannis' speech about having it all backwards. He was thinking of his rights when he should've been thinking of his duty. Also it's not Tyrion's fault because he advised against Daenerys going to save Jon on sound grounds. Daeneys didn't listen and she lost her dragon as a result. The onus of the decision ultimately fell in Daenerys. 12 hours ago, screamin said: In her last published chapter, you see Sansa sincerely trying to keep her resentment of Robin under check, trying to think the best she can of him while fending off his importuning, and wishing him a happy marriage with some highborn maiden who definitely ISN'T her. Yes, you may say that she's only doing this because she's in deep denial about what's REALLY happening. But IMO, she doesn't know that LF is poisoning SR because LF isn't actually poisoning SR yet. At the time we last see her in the books, she hasn't got Harry the Heir nailed down, and Littlefinger loses all his power if SR dies before Sansa attaches him to the next lord of the Vale through marriage. So LF is definitely NOT poisoning SR until Sansa is safely married or at least betrothed to Harry, a penniless heir he can control through his money and Sansa. IMO, Sansa has still made herself believe that LF is content to wait till SR kicks off from natural causes...which is not at all an unlikely outcome, as epilepsy all by itself can easily kill him. Of course. we the readers know that as soon as Sansa has snared Harry, LF will have no further need of SR and will be happy to bump him off. He would undoubtedly use the 'clean hands' method, by taking a long trip to give himself a safe alibi, while demanding Sansa give SR the fatal dose to incriminate her so thoroughly she will never dare denounce LF lest she hang alongside him. I think at that point Sansa will realize denial is impossible, and what she does then will show us all what she's REALLY made of. So staunch a defender are you of Dany that you are predicting that she will in the books commit huge acts of horrendous moral turpitude and eventually inevitably die along with her longed-for unborn child, without actually giving any particular reason why you are so certain this absolutely must happen. With friends like these... I mean I'm a huge fan of Stannis too and I think he's going to burn Shireen in the books too and probably either live out the rest of his life as a member of the NW or be executed by Jon/Brienne/Daenerys. I like tragedy more than I do happy endings because tragedy speaks more to you. Edited October 25, 2017 by WindyNights Link to comment
WindyNights October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 12 hours ago, herbz said: Yeah, show Stannis is no altruist when it came to helping the North (neither's book Stannis, but people will defend him forever). Everything came back round to the throne for him IMO. The wight hunt was such a monumentally stupid plan that it puts into question that strategic ability of anyone involved in the formulation of it. I.e. not Dany! I don't see how she could possibly take the blame for this one considering Jon would be toast had she not gone to save him. And if Jon's toast, the whole realm probably is too, because he's the one trying to unite everyone against the WW. Not really true. GRRM says that Stannis is one of the few characters to realize the true threat is the Others because he's a righteous man. Stannis may be a dickhead but he's got his priorities right. The only reason that he goes to fight the Boltons is because he's trying to secure his flank before the Others invade. Anyways, Jon can't even unite the North. He's not the one to unite everyone. Daenerys and Varys have done better jobs at uniting people than Jon. 8 hours ago, Eyes High said: Also, Dany is the only non-Cersei queen running around. Yeah, I don't think GRRM's love of the underdog is any secret. His main five characters are all underdogs, which is why I wouldn't be surprised to see them come out on top in the end, although what "coming out on top" might look like will be very different from character to character. I've always thought that the YMBQ prophecy in the books as it has played out is dumb, because Book Cersei has already lost a good deal that she holds dear, and there's no one single person, let along an identifiable YMBQ, responsible. Her pride? Walk of shame. Her beauty? Age and booze. Tywin? Tyrion. Joffrey? The Tyrells. Jaime? I think she has only herself to blame for losing him. The only way the prophecy works in either the books or the show is if you assume that Cersei hasn't yet lost anything she holds dear, which is nonsense in my opinion. Going back to the endgame, one possible scene I've been batting around is a newly-crowned Jon and Dany sitting down with a group of lords/ladies representing the seven regions: Stormlands: Gendry (legitimized, I'm assuming) Reach: Sam Iron Islands: whoever survives of Theon and Yara (if I had to guess, I'd say Theon) Vale: Robin North: Sansa Westerlands: Tyrion Dorne: No idea. There's a throwaway line in the S7 script outlines about there being multiple families fighting for control of Dorne after the deaths of the Sand Snakes. It would be a nice way of tying everything together, in my opinion. I don't see how Sam gets the Reach. Everything else seems fine to me Link to comment
screamin October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, WindyNights said: I mean I'm a huge fan of Stannis too and I think he's going to burn Shireen in the books too and probably either live out the rest of his life as a member of the NW or be executed by Jon/Brienne/Daenerys. I like tragedy more than I do happy endings because tragedy speaks more to you. Well, we know Stannis is going to do that or something very like that in the books because we already saw him do it on the show and we were told that the show will not deviate from GRRM's major end-points. So you're still not explaining why you're so sure that Book Dany WILL absolutely commit morally reprehensible acts and die with her unborn baby when we haven't seen that on the show. Quote Not really true. GRRM says that Stannis is one of the few characters to realize the true threat is the Others because he's a righteous man. Stannis may be a dickhead but he's got his priorities right. The only reason that he goes to fight the Boltons is because he's trying to secure his flank before the Others invade. I'd like to see the quote. While I agree that Stannis did have some morality to his character, I disagree that he acted solely because of his righteousness. GRRM painted Stannis' obsessive and repetitive enumerations of all his tenacious grudges toward the people who slighted him all his life too well for me to believe there wasn't a whole lot of wounded ego behind his acts. If Stannis were REALLY principally motivated by his desire to save the land and the world from the WW, he'd have (for example) made common cause with Robb to put a swift end to the war instead of refusing because the North wanted independence. How DARE they reject him! And besides, why should Stannis do Robb any favors, Ned was always Robert's favorite anyway (grumble, grumble...) That's putting pride and ego before the needs of the world. Edited October 25, 2017 by screamin Link to comment
anamika October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) 54 minutes ago, screamin said: I'd like to see the quote. Quote And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=49161 Stannis is a flawed character but he also understands that the threat beyond the wall is what is more important. As he says: Quote Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. He is also an interesting character to read. For instance, I could never figure out if he was truly a religious fanatic who really believed that burning people appeased the lord of light or if he was just doing it to give his men hope and belief in something. As for Shireen, I think she will be burned to resurrect Jon, so it will be interesting to see how Stannis, Shireen, Mel, Jon all end up at the same place from where they currently are at the end of ADwD. Edited October 25, 2017 by anamika 1 Link to comment
screamin October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 Ah, thank you, I was looking for the source of the quote and couldn't find it. I figured there would be interesting context, and there is - basically, GRRM is saying that Stannis is righteous in comparison to Henry VII, a rank opportunist with a very weak claim who gradually murdered all other claimants after his succession, Louis XI who rebelled repeatedly against his father from age 16 and finally upon succeeding settled down to a life of conspiracy to increase his power, and Livia's son from I, Claudius, who succeeded to the rank of emperor as at least a beneficiary and possibly an accomplice of murder, before eventually retiring to Capri to beguile his gloomy temper with reputed acts of child molestation. I mean, yes, I totally agree that Stannis is more righteous than those people, but it's still kind of a low bar. Link to comment
WindyNights October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, screamin said: Ah, thank you, I was looking for the source of the quote and couldn't find it. I figured there would be interesting context, and there is - basically, GRRM is saying that Stannis is righteous in comparison to Henry VII, a rank opportunist with a very weak claim who gradually murdered all other claimants after his succession, Louis XI who rebelled repeatedly against his father from age 16 and finally upon succeeding settled down to a life of conspiracy to increase his power, and Livia's son from I, Claudius, who succeeded to the rank of emperor as at least a beneficiary and possibly an accomplice of murder, before eventually retiring to Capri to beguile his gloomy temper with reputed acts of child molestation. I mean, yes, I totally agree that Stannis is more righteous than those people, but it's still kind of a low bar. Not exactly. He's saying that Stannis is a righteous man rather than Stannis is more righteous than Henry VII. In layman's terms, he's saying that what divides Stannis from Henry VII is being righteous. If you read what he's said about Renly's assassination, GRRM has implied that he thinks Stannis was in the right. 5 hours ago, screamin said: Well, we know Stannis is going to do that or something very like that in the books because we already saw him do it on the show and we were told that the show will not deviate from GRRM's major end-points. So you're still not explaining why you're so sure that Book Dany WILL absolutely commit morally reprehensible acts and die with her unborn baby when we haven't seen that on the show. I'd like to see the quote. While I agree that Stannis did have some morality to his character, I disagree that he acted solely because of his righteousness. GRRM painted Stannis' obsessive and repetitive enumerations of all his tenacious grudges toward the people who slighted him all his life too well for me to believe there wasn't a whole lot of wounded ego behind his acts. If Stannis were REALLY principally motivated by his desire to save the land and the world from the WW, he'd have (for example) made common cause with Robb to put a swift end to the war instead of refusing because the North wanted independence. How DARE they reject him! And besides, why should Stannis do Robb any favors, Ned was always Robert's favorite anyway (grumble, grumble...) That's putting pride and ego before the needs of the world. I actually predicted Stannis burning Shireen before the show depicted it. That Edric stuff and Shireen's dream about dragons coming to eat her her pointed that way. On Stannis, you're thinking of ACOK Stannis. By the end of ASOS, Stannis has grown and is firmly putting the needs of the world before his own. That's what Stannis' speech about putting the horse before the cart is about. This whole time he was thinking of his rights when he should've been thinking of his duty to the realm. That's what leads him to the NW's aid. It's a similar arc that Daenerys is going to go through. Daenerys and Stannis have a lot of similarities. Edited October 25, 2017 by WindyNights Link to comment
Eyes High October 25, 2017 Author Share October 25, 2017 10 hours ago, WindyNights said: I don't see how Sam gets the Reach. Everything else seems fine to me Jaime informing Randyll that he can't think of a better Warden of the South (followed by a scene with Sam) --> Olenna Tyrell dying --> Randyll and Dickon dying --> Sam becoming disillusioned with the maesters --> (what I imagine will be the) postwar dissolution of NW --> new Warden of the South appointed --> Sam gets the Reach. 1 Link to comment
screamin October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) Quote Not exactly. He's saying that Stannis is a righteous man rather than Stannis is more righteous than Henry VII. In layman's terms, he's saying that what divides Stannis from Henry VII is being righteous. If that's what he meant, wouldn't he have SAID that? Thusly: "Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man." Period. Full stop. But instead he lists three men who weren't just pursuing their real rights without care of the interests of the public, in morally neutral fashion. He chooses three men who explicitly war for the sake of their inferior claims against people with better rights, and/or murder those people with better rights in their pursuit of power, and let's not forget the child molestation hobby - that is, morally dark characters, not just neutral. I really doubt he went to the trouble of naming those three men so that we could just ignore their presence in that sentence. IMO, we were meant to compare and contrast Stannis with them, and it's significant that he had to choose such a dark background to make Stannis show up well against it. 6 hours ago, WindyNights said: I actually predicted Stannis burning Shireen before the show depicted it. That Edric stuff and Shireen's dream about dragons coming to eat her her pointed that way. Very good. I thought the books were heading in that direction as well - poor Shireen was obviously too sweet and good to live. So, what in the books has you convinced that Dany and probably her unborn child are destined to commit morally horrifying acts and then die - SO convinced that you repeatedly say to people expressing contrary opinion that they are wrong, without explaining why you think so? Edited October 25, 2017 by screamin Link to comment
herbz October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Eyes High said: Jaime informing Randyll that he can't think of a better Warden of the South (followed by a scene with Sam) --> Olenna Tyrell dying --> Randyll and Dickon dying --> Sam becoming disillusioned with the maesters --> (what I imagine will be the) postwar dissolution of NW --> new Warden of the South appointed --> Sam gets the Reach. Sam getting the Reach in the end was (almost) as subtly signposted as Daenerys getting pregnant. I go back and forth on the Westerlands. Tyrion seems the obvious candidate, but there is the small matter of him murdering the previous head of House Lannister. Whatever his motivations, kinslaying is still the greatest sin of all in book!Westeros. As things stand it would take a lot for the Westermen to accept him. It's not like there aren't a whole host of Lannister cousins who could take over in the book, and Tyrion's fate is one I don't see differing between book and show. Edited October 25, 2017 by herbz Link to comment
tangerine95 October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, WindyNights said: Well it wasn't his only option. Tywin thought that Stannis would go for Dorne just after Oberyn's death and feared Doran and Stannis allying with each other. And Stannis goes North because Davos convinced that he had to prove himself worthy of the crown by defending the realm. A king defends his people. Hence Stannis' speech about having it all backwards. He was thinking of his rights when he should've been thinking of his duty. Also it's not Tyrion's fault because he advised against Daenerys going to save Jon on sound grounds. Daeneys didn't listen and she lost her dragon as a result. The onus of the decision ultimately fell in Daenerys. I mean I'm a huge fan of Stannis too and I think he's going to burn Shireen in the books too and probably either live out the rest of his life as a member of the NW or be executed by Jon/Brienne/Daenerys. I like tragedy more than I do happy endings because tragedy speaks more to you. And still Stannis demanded many of the same things Dany did like bending the knee to him and also still had the iron throne on his mind as did Dany when Jon first came to her.It seems to me its basically protocol for rulers who want the throne.She also decided she was more needed north once she saw the WW and how many they actually were and stopped demanding anything for it.They basically did similar things imo except I think Dany will be successful where Stannis failed but also at great personal cost. The plan was dumb so whatever she did would have been dangerous.Stay and they'll lose an ally in Jon when they already lost too many and they'll lose the chance to show Cersei what they're up again since apparently they just have to make peace with her instead of simply removing her from power.Leave and she risks herself and her dragons.Staying on Dragonstone is the more rational choice sure but I'm honestly glad she's not the type to make it and let people she cares about die.I still don't think get how the person that came up with the plan or the person that wouldn't give up on the dumb plan are not to blame but Dany who answered a call for help is. Edited October 25, 2017 by tangerine95 3 Link to comment
WindyNights October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, screamin said: If that's what he meant, wouldn't he have SAID that? Thusly: "Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man." Period. Full stop. But instead he lists three men who weren't just pursuing their real rights without care of the interests of the public, in morally neutral fashion. He chooses three men who explicitly war for the sake of their inferior claims against people with better rights, and/or murder those people with better rights in their pursuit of power, and let's not forget the child molestation hobby - that is, morally dark characters, not just neutral. I really doubt he went to the trouble of naming those three men so that we could just ignore their presence in that sentence. IMO, we were meant to compare and contrast Stannis with them, and it's significant that he had to choose such a dark background to make Stannis show up well against it. Very good. I thought the books were heading in that direction as well - poor Shireen was obviously too sweet and good to live. So, what in the books has you convinced that Dany and probably her unborn child are destined to commit morally horrifying acts and then die - SO convinced that you repeatedly say to people expressing contrary opinion that they are wrong, without explaining why you think so? Stannis' character is based a lot on I, Claudius' Tiberius. Except GRRM made him a lot heroic. Anyways, the idea is that Stannis would be similar to these guys if he weren't righteous. That's what GRRM is saying. He's comparing what Stannis has that they don't. on Daenerys, I already said that I'm just following the foreshadowing, the tone and text. MMD's prophecy, HOTU(both versions, GRRM talking about the Second Dance, everywhere the dragons danced the people died, Daenerys basically saying no more nice Targaryen in her last chapter in ADWD, Chekhov's Wildfire and the introduction of "Aegon" 2 hours ago, tangerine95 said: And still Stannis demanded many of the same things Dany did like bending the knee to him and also still had the iron throne on his mind as did Dany when Jon first came to her.It seems to me its basically protocol for rulers who want the throne.She also decided she was more needed north once she saw the WW and how many they actually were and stopped demanding anything for it.They basically did similar things imo except I think Dany will be successful where Stannis failed but also at great personal cost. The plan was dumb so whatever she did would have been dangerous.Stay and they'll lose an ally in Jon when they already lost too many and they'll lose the chance to show Cersei what they're up again since apparently they just have to make peace with her instead of simply removing her from power.Leave and she risks herself and her dragons.Staying on Dragonstone is the more rational choice sure but I'm honestly glad she's not the type to make it and let people she cares about die.I still don't think get how the person that came up with the plan or the person that wouldn't give up on the dumb plan are not to blame but Dany who answered a call for help is. Don't disagree with any of this. Edited October 25, 2017 by WindyNights Link to comment
Eyes High October 25, 2017 Author Share October 25, 2017 4 hours ago, herbz said: I go back and forth on the Westerlands. Tyrion seems the obvious candidate, but there is the small matter of him murdering the previous head of House Lannister. Whatever his motivations, kinslaying is still the greatest sin of all in book!Westeros. As things stand it would take a lot for the Westermen to accept him. It's not like there aren't a whole host of Lannister cousins who could take over in the book, and Tyrion's fate is one I don't see differing between book and show. I don't think there's really any capital-f Foreshadowing or capital-h Hints for Tyrion's endgame in the show of the type we saw for Sam in S7. Tyrion ending up as Jon and/or Dany's endgame Hand and as Warden of the West seems like the likeliest outcome, though. Seems obvious, but then, R+L=J also seemed obvious. As for possible alternatives to Tyrion for endgame Lord/Lady of Casterly Rock, the show doesn't have any Lannister cousins left to take over Casterly Rock, and the show hasn't even mentioned the kinslaying curse. The show also brought back into play Tyrion's lingering attachment to the Lannisters and Casterly Rock. It could be because it's relevant to his endgame. Link to comment
Wouter October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) On 24-10-2017 at 7:31 PM, screamin said: I think it's like what Eyes High says here: Cersei's children are a huge part of what she's held dear in her life. If there is no one woman who is ultimately responsible for all their deaths, then the part of the prophecy that says the YMBQ takes all she holds dear stops making sense...which is what I think has happened on the show. In the books? Well, both Sansa and Margaery could be considered to have had a hand in Joffrey's death; I suppose it's still possible that either of them could also somehow be responsible for Tommen and Myrcella being lost to their mother through death or some other estrangement, but I think it would be pretty farfetched. Margaery is doing her best to take Tommen from her (in the books she's trying, in the show we can say she succeeded even if posthumously), but her premature death in the show seems to rule her out. Both Sansa and Margaery had a role in Joffrey's death. Neither Dany, Margaery or Sansa is likely to have any hand in Myrcella's fate. What Cersei loves most of all though, may be power. In the books, Margaery has already cost her a lot of that but maybe she'll regain a lot of it, if her trajectory is anything like in the show (but due to fAegon, the books may turn out quite different). Dany looks the most likely to take her last scraps of power, in book and show. Sansa may be the underdog but it would be kind of appropriate, so to speak, if she was it anyway. We know Cersei was/is afraid of Margaery as YMBQ in the books and show, and now fears Dany as same during and after S7. But I think it was implied that she was suspicious of Sansa too, and thus happy that Joffrey wasn't influenced by her in a meaningful way. Keeping Sansa powerless and miserable must have been quite pleasing to Cersei, with the prophecy in the back of her mind. Brienne could well take Jaime from her, but it's debatable if she holds him that dear by now, anyway. Edited October 25, 2017 by Wouter 2 Link to comment
screamin October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 20 minutes ago, Wouter said: Margaery is doing her best to take Tommen from her (in the books she's trying, in the show we can say she succeeded even if posthumously), but her premature death in the show seems to rule her out. Both Sansa and Margaery had a role in Joffrey's death. Neither Dany, Margaery or Sansa is likely to have any hand in Myrcella's fate. What Cersei loves most of all though, may be power. In the books, Margaery has already cost her a lot of that but maybe she'll regain a lot of it, if her trajectory is anything like in the show (but due to fAegon, the books may turn out quite different). Dany looks the most likely to take her last scraps of power, in book and show. Sansa may be the underdog but it would be kind of appropriate, so to speak, if she was it anyway. We know Cersei was/is afraid of Margaery as YMBQ in the books and show, and now fears Dany as same during and after S7. But I think it was implied that she was suspicious of Sansa too, and thus happy that Joffrey wasn't influenced by her in a meaningful way. Keeping Sansa powerless and miserable must have been quite pleasing to Cersei, with the prophecy in the back of her mind. Brienne could well take Jaime from her, but it's debatable if she holds him that dear by now, anyway. It IS canon that Cersei loved Joffrey more than either Tommen or Myrcella (she makes that clear in her own inner monologues). If that translates to only Joffrey being truly 'held dear' by her, then Sansa might still qualify. I think it would make a fine dramatic irony, because during all the time Cersei had Sansa under her power, she never really seemed to consider her a threat. She seemed to get a sadistic thrill out of making her captivity even more hellish than it had to be by rubbing Sansa's nose in her powerlessness at every turn. She protested when Tywin demanded that Joffrey's engagement with Sansa be broken off; her excuse was that Joffrey was fond of Sansa, but she honestly seemed more upset than Joffrey by the breaking of the engagement...probably because she saw Sansa as a powerless pushover who had neither the resources, the nerve, or the brains to be a threat, hence a more desirable daughter in law than Margaery, who she perceived as a threat and a probable candidate for YMBQ from the start. Dany had nothing to do with Joffrey's death whatever, she never met Cersei in the books and only once on the show, and I think it would be more dramatically interesting for Cersei's coup de grace to be administered by someone she knew personally but always discounted as a real danger in favor of more obvious threats (Margaery, Dany) rather than have it delivered by a near stranger whose grudge toward Cersei is more abstract than personal. But then, I like Sansa, so I'm probably biased. 2 Link to comment
domina89 October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eyes High said: I don't think there's really any capital-f Foreshadowing or capital-h Hints for Tyrion's endgame in the show of the type we saw for Sam in S7. Tyrion ending up as Jon and/or Dany's endgame Hand and as Warden of the West seems like the likeliest outcome, though. Seems obvious, but then, R+L=J also seemed obvious. As for possible alternatives to Tyrion for endgame Lord/Lady of Casterly Rock, the show doesn't have any Lannister cousins left to take over Casterly Rock, and the show hasn't even mentioned the kinslaying curse. The show also brought back into play Tyrion's lingering attachment to the Lannisters and Casterly Rock. It could be because it's relevant to his endgame. I still believe that Tyrion's face during Jonerys boatsex was a strong hint for his endgame- namely that he is going to betray Jon or Dany or both of them. There's an interesting discussion on reddit that mentions a clue in AGOT for Tyrion's endgame and many believe that clue is when Ghost attacks Tyrion. Ghost knows Tyrion can't be trusted and he's trying to warn Jon. And when I heard this conversation in episode two of season seven, my spidey sense started tingling even more: SANSA: Have you forgotten what happened to our grandfather? The Mad King invited him to King's Landing and roasted him alive. JON: I know that. SANSA: She is here to reclaim the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms. The north is one of those seven kingdoms. This isn't an invitation, it's a trap. JON: It could be, but I don't believe Tyrion would do that. You know him. He's a good man. We all know how trusting Jon can be and he likes Tyrion. Always has. I could see a scenario where Tyrion betrays them for his family or what he believes is the greater good. All I know is that character beat was important or it wouldn't have been included. Edited October 25, 2017 by domina89 2 Link to comment
Eyes High October 25, 2017 Author Share October 25, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, domina89 said: I still believe that Tyrion's face during Jonerys boatsex was a strong hint for his endgame- namely that he is going to betray Jon or Dany or both of them. There's an interesting discussion on reddit that mentions a clue in AGOT for Tyrion's endgame and many believe that clue is when Ghost attacks Tyrion. Ghost knows Tyrion can't be trusted and he's trying to warn Jon. The idea that the direwolves are effective warning systems or trustworthy judges of character is just not borne out in the books or the show. Robb, Rickon and Bran's direwolves all attacked Tyrion at Winterfell in the books,, and the various misfortunes those three characters suffered over the course of the books (and show) were not Tyrion's fault. If Summer, Shaggydog and Grey Wind were worth anything when it came to assessing threats to their owners, they would have targeted Theon, not Tyrion. And while we're talking about direwolves warning their owners, Lady had no reaction whatsoever to Joffrey and growled at the Hound, and of the two, who represented a greater threat to Sansa? The more plausible explanation is that Ghost, who's actually indifferent to Tyrion for the most part, attacked Tyrion in that specific instance because Jon was upset to the point of tears by Tyrion's callous comments and Ghost picked up on it, just as Lady had no discernible negative reaction to Joffrey in that specific instance because Sansa was blind to his true nature herself at the time. Those reactions were not reflective of some objective truth about Tyrion and Joffrey's trustworthiness, though, just a subjective reaction to Jon and Sansa's feelings at particular points in time. Quote We all know how trusting Jon can be and he likes Tyrion. Always has. I could see a scenario where Tyrion betrays them for his family or what he believes is the greater good. All I know is that character beat was important or it wouldn't have been included. I don't see anything in the bit of dialogue you cited other than a workmanlike bit of moving the plot from point A to point B. D&D needed to establish Jon's reasons for ignoring the possible trap and the objections to same. If Tyrion were going to turn on Jon in S8, we'd see more setup for it. D&D are not subtle. There was nothing in S7 pointing to a potential betrayal by Tyrion, and frankly at this stage in the game with only six episodes left, I'd say if it hasn't been set up by now (with big flashing neon lights of the type we got for Dany's pregnancy), it's not going to happen. Also, even assuming that Tyrion is going to betray Jon and Dany, who's left to betray them to? Euron? The Night King? Edited October 25, 2017 by Eyes High 2 Link to comment
whateverdgaf October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Wouter said: Margaery is doing her best to take Tommen from her (in the books she's trying, in the show we can say she succeeded even if posthumously), but her premature death in the show seems to rule her out. Both Sansa and Margaery had a role in Joffrey's death. Neither Dany, Margaery or Sansa is likely to have any hand in Myrcella's fate. What Cersei loves most of all though, may be power. In the books, Margaery has already cost her a lot of that but maybe she'll regain a lot of it, if her trajectory is anything like in the show (but due to fAegon, the books may turn out quite different). Dany looks the most likely to take her last scraps of power, in book and show. Sansa may be the underdog but it would be kind of appropriate, so to speak, if she was it anyway. We know Cersei was/is afraid of Margaery as YMBQ in the books and show, and now fears Dany as same during and after S7. But I think it was implied that she was suspicious of Sansa too, and thus happy that Joffrey wasn't influenced by her in a meaningful way. Keeping Sansa powerless and miserable must have been quite pleasing to Cersei, with the prophecy in the back of her mind. Brienne could well take Jaime from her, but it's debatable if she holds him that dear by now, anyway. Although I'm not convinced Jaime is the Valonqar, if he does kill Cersei it could possibly as a result of Brienne's influence. Her reminding him of his honorable side and helping him fall out of love with Cersei. Or maybe his not being present will result in her death, maybe some of the Lannister army deserts and follows Jaime. And I think what matters most to Cersei is Cersei. So maybe Brienne takes Jaime away and this results in Cersei dying, taking away what Cersei cares about the most. Herself. I actually really love the idea of Brienne being the YMBQ. Cersei is extremely narcissistic , so for someone the complete opposite of herself to eventually overpower her would be very satisfying. Cersei believes her greatest assets to be her status and her beauty, so she is convinced that whoever the YMBQ is must possess these qualities, it does not occur for her to look for different interpretations. As others have pointed out, the YMBQ is not specifically stated to be a queen, just another. But Cersei values being queen so much that she concludes the YMBQ must be a queen as well. Brienne meanwhile rejects her role as future ruler of Tarth and instead has made her own way in the world, relying more in her skills than her birth. If the relatively lower status Brienne is the one to cast her down, it would be a good way of showing how a person's birth is of lesser importance to their actions. Cersei also seems to consider love and honour a weakness, so if we do by into the 'more beautiful' aspect to relate to Brienne's inner beauty (which is what draws Jaime to Brienne), then that means the traits that Cersei considers weaknesses would be what results in Brienne being the one to cast her down, whereas Cersei's own beauty is worthless as evidenced by Brienne's lack of it. After all, GRRM did say that when he was writing for Jaime and Brienne, he did so with Beauty and the Beast in mind, the moral of which is inner-beauty over outer. For Brienne's inner beauty to reign triumphant over Cersei's superficial beauty would very much fit into this moral. 3 Link to comment
Wouter October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 2 hours ago, screamin said: It IS canon that Cersei loved Joffrey more than either Tommen or Myrcella (she makes that clear in her own inner monologues). If that translates to only Joffrey being truly 'held dear' by her, then Sansa might still qualify. I think it would make a fine dramatic irony, because during all the time Cersei had Sansa under her power, she never really seemed to consider her a threat. She seemed to get a sadistic thrill out of making her captivity even more hellish than it had to be by rubbing Sansa's nose in her powerlessness at every turn. She protested when Tywin demanded that Joffrey's engagement with Sansa be broken off; her excuse was that Joffrey was fond of Sansa, but she honestly seemed more upset than Joffrey by the breaking of the engagement...probably because she saw Sansa as a powerless pushover who had neither the resources, the nerve, or the brains to be a threat, hence a more desirable daughter in law than Margaery, who she perceived as a threat and a probable candidate for YMBQ from the start. I agree, Sansa was a powerless captive (and Cersei indeed didn't think highly of her) while Margaery was backed by considerable Tyrell power (and she quickly proved to be intelligent as well). With Sansa (in that position, anyway) she could be reasonably sure the YMBQ prophecy wouldn't come to pass. But if Sansa gains power, in the Vale (books?) or in Winterfell (show!), Cersei may be less comfortable about that, especially if Sansa is believed to have turned the tables on LF. Allthough Dany is still the obvious threat and the only queen in town (at this time, anyway). In the books, we would have to consider Arianne too, I suppose, but leaving her out of the show alltogether rules that out. 7 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said: Although I'm not convinced Jaime is the Valonqar, if he does kill Cersei it could possibly as a result of Brienne's influence. Her reminding him of his honorable side and helping him fall out of love with Cersei. Or maybe his not being present will result in her death, maybe some of the Lannister army deserts and follows Jaime. And I think what matters most to Cersei is Cersei. So maybe Brienne takes Jaime away and this results in Cersei dying, taking away what Cersei cares about the most. Herself. A good idea, but IIRC the prophecy states that Cersei will die (by the hands of the Valonqar) only after the YMBQ has taken away what she holds most dear. This suggests that it isn't merely her life. 1 Link to comment
domina89 October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Eyes High said: I don't see anything in the bit of dialogue you cited other than a workmanlike bit of moving the plot from point A to point B. D&D needed to establish Jon's reasons for ignoring the possible trap and the objections to same. If Tyrion were going to turn on Jon in S8, we'd see more setup for it. D&D are not subtle. There was nothing in S7 pointing to a potential betrayal by Tyrion, and frankly at this stage in the game with only six episodes left, I'd say if it hasn't been set up by now (with big flashing neon lights of the type we got for Dany's pregnancy), it's not going to happen. Also, even assuming that Tyrion is going to betray Jon and Dany, who's left to betray them to? Euron? The Night King? D&D are not subtle about points they want the audience to focus on, but something that is a plot twist for the end of the series would be the perfect opportunity for misdirection. Did anyone see "hold the door" coming, after all? Tyrion is smart, funny, and charming which makes him a likable underdog but he also has this tragic backstory of pain and betrayal by his family. He's the outcast we constantly root for because he's had Tywin, Cersei and an array of others bullying him his entire life. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that he is Dany's final betrayal for love considering most would not expect it and GRRM loves to upend tropes. I also think we have seen enough conversations between Varys and Tyrion about serving the realm and arguments between Tyrion and Dany about using her dragons as WMDs to infer that he might do something drastic if he thought it was in the best interest of Westeros or his family. Tyrion could absolutely betray them (I'm considering Jon and Dany a unit at this point since they are now a team) to the Night King (to end the Long Night) or even to Cersei, if the reasons were there. We don't know how that conversation with Cersei ended after he found out she was pregnant. Did that not strike you as odd that we didn't get to see that? What did he say to her to get her to change her mind? There are directorial reasons we see the things we see and what they choose to leave out. I'm not sure how you can say there's nothing Tyrion does in season 7 that doesn't raise a few flags. I see plenty of them. Link to comment
MadMouse October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 I don't think Tyrion betraying Jon and Dany is that crazy of an idea. There's a good chance he will in the books for different reasons of course. Book Tyrion wants to wipe his family out, show Tyrion doesn't. I don't believe it will be out of malice but a "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" type deal. And it will be about protecting Cersei's unborn child. 1 Link to comment
tangerine95 October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 23 minutes ago, MadMouse said: I don't think Tyrion betraying Jon and Dany is that crazy of an idea. There's a good chance he will in the books for different reasons of course. Book Tyrion wants to wipe his family out, show Tyrion doesn't. I don't believe it will be out of malice but a "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" type deal. And it will be about protecting Cersei's unborn child. Yeah that's how I see it happening if they go there.I don't think he'd do it out of malice or anything but something out of trying to protect Cersei and her kid.He already gave a bunch of bad strategic advice and cost Dany 3 allies because he was also trying to protect his family while being her hand. Idk if they'll go with Tyrion betraying them but they have the set up for it imo. Link to comment
screamin October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, tangerine95 said: Yeah that's how I see it happening if they go there.I don't think he'd do it out of malice or anything but something out of trying to protect Cersei and her kid.He already gave a bunch of bad strategic advice and cost Dany 3 allies because he was also trying to protect his family while being her hand. Idk if they'll go with Tyrion betraying them but they have the set up for it imo. I could see both book and show Tyrion 'betraying' Dany by figuring out that either Dany or Jon could be the Azor Ahai/Prince(ss) That Was Promised figure that would slay the Night King with the aid of the sacrifice of their beloved to gain the power to do so - and telling this to Jon while withholding the same information from Dany. He would do this because, knowing Jon, he would know that Jon would offer himself up for the sacrifice so that Dany could use the sacrifice to become Azor Ahai, slay the Night King and survive - and Tyrion would not want his queen to have the opportunity to consider making that sacrifice herself instead like Nissa Nissa. That could be the last of the 'three treasons' Dany was told about in The House of the Undying - the treason for love. She could consider it not only a betrayal by Tyrion for love, but a betrayal by Jon for exactly the same reason. Edited October 25, 2017 by screamin Link to comment
MadMouse October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 22 minutes ago, tangerine95 said: Yeah that's how I see it happening if they go there.I don't think he'd do it out of malice or anything but something out of trying to protect Cersei and her kid.He already gave a bunch of bad strategic advice and cost Dany 3 allies because he was also trying to protect his family while being her hand. Idk if they'll go with Tyrion betraying them but they have the set up for it imo. She's already questioning his advice, his talk about naming an heir, not revealing Cersei pregnancy, his guilt and love for Tommen and Myrcella ,whatever issues he has with boatsex, Cersei's double cross. The groundwork is all there really. 1 Link to comment
tangerine95 October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 24 minutes ago, screamin said: I could see both book and show Tyrion 'betraying' Dany by figuring out that either Dany or Jon could be the Azor Ahai/Prince(ss) That Was Promised figure that would slay the Night King with the aid of the sacrifice of their beloved to gain the power to do so - and telling this to Jon while withholding the same information from Dany. He would do this because, knowing Jon, he would know that Jon would offer himself up for the sacrifice so that Dany could use the sacrifice to become Azor Ahai, slay the Night King and survive - and Tyrion would not want his queen to have the opportunity to consider making that sacrifice herself instead like Nissa Nissa. That could be the last of the 'three treasons' Dany was told about in The House of the Undying - the treason for love. She could consider it not only a betrayal by Tyrion for love, but a betrayal by Jon for exactly the same reason. Could be,but I hope not tbh because I've always disliked the idea of one of them sacrificing each other to beat the NK. 20 minutes ago, MadMouse said: She's already questioning his advice, his talk about naming an heir, not revealing Cersei pregnancy, his guilt and love for Tommen and Myrcella ,whatever issues he has with boatsex, Cersei's double cross. The groundwork is all there really. Yeah all that plus them setting up him being in love with Dany and being jealous in those early outlines.They dropped that thankfully but at some point they had the jealousy angle to the whole thing.It could be a fake out like the will Sansa betray Jon thing so idk but I wouldn't be surprised if he betrayed them after how he was in season 7. 1 Link to comment
Eyes High October 26, 2017 Author Share October 26, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, domina89 said: D&D are not subtle about points they want the audience to focus on, but something that is a plot twist for the end of the series would be the perfect opportunity for misdirection. Did anyone see "hold the door" coming, after all? Tyrion is smart, funny, and charming which makes him a likable underdog but he also has this tragic backstory of pain and betrayal by his family. "Hold the door" wasn't at odds with Hodor's character up to that point, and nor was Stannis burning Shireen, so your comparison doesn't hold. TV Tyrion is not only "smart, funny and charming," he's a good guy, as D&D have repeatedly made clear. He's such a good guy, in fact, that unlike Book Tyrion, he can't bear the thought of Jaime and Cersei--both of whom profess to hate him and want him dead--dying as a result of Dany's invasion. That Tyrion's desire to spare his family from destruction is seen by some as a guarantee that he will turn on Jon and Dany is completely mystifying to me. To me, Tyrion being conflicted over the idea of Jaime and Cersei's deaths is just another reminder of Tyrion's saintliness in D&D's eyes, which points about as far away from a turn to villainy and betrayal as you can possibly get. The show provided ample hints and suggestions that Sansa would turn on her family, including an "ominous look" of her own in 6x10 matching Tyrion's supposed "ominous look" in 7x07, and she didn't. Tyrion has also been whitewashed in the show to the point that a face-heel turn would not be a "plot twist," it would be completely nonsensical. It would be about on the order of Davos slitting Jon's throat. 39 minutes ago, screamin said: I could see both book and show Tyrion 'betraying' Dany by figuring out that either Dany or Jon could be the Azor Ahai/Prince(ss) That Was Promised figure Neither TV nor Book Tyrion are not the type to buy into prophecy, much less try to use prophecy to manipulate others. That's more of a Melisandre play, and Tyrion's too much of a hardheaded rationalist for that. Edited October 26, 2017 by Eyes High 2 Link to comment
screamin October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Eyes High said: Neither TV nor Book Tyrion are not the type to buy into prophecy, much less try to use prophecy to manipulate others. That's more of a Melisandre play, and Tyrion's too much of a hardheaded rationalist for that. The hardheaded rationalist sneered at White Walkers along with snarks and grumpkins as equally laughable myths, but has now seen the evidence himself. Since magic and prophecy are tangible realities in this world, why should Tyrion pooh-pooh prophecies when he's seen so many other things happen he's previously considered myths? Not to mention there's Bran as a source of convincing. When the Others start crossing the sundered Wall just like in the prophecies, do you think he's going to write off the prophesied salvation of the world as nonsense just on obsolete general principles of skepticism? Edited October 26, 2017 by screamin 1 Link to comment
Eyes High October 26, 2017 Author Share October 26, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, screamin said: The hardheaded rationalist sneered at White Walkers along with snarks and grumpkins as equally laughable myths, but has now seen the evidence himself. He has seen the evidence for magical creatures, not for prophecy. It's perfectly possible to believe in one and not the other. Davos saw Melisandre birth a shadow baby assassin and saw her bring a man back from the dead, but he's always been disdainful of Melisandre's prophecies. Now, to be fair, S6 Tyrion was on board with Kinvara using Dany prophecy propaganda to advance Tyrion's agenda, but that's quite different from buying into a prophecy and relying on that prophecy to produce a specific outcome which you seemed to be suggesting was possible with Tyrion. Tyrion has always rolled his eyes at the Dany saviour prophecies, and there's no indication that learning of the WW threat has changed his mind; he believes in Dany, but not because the red priestesses claim she's going to save the world. Edited October 26, 2017 by Eyes High Link to comment
MadMouse October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 10 minutes ago, Eyes High said: "Hold the door" wasn't at odds with Hodor's character up to that point, and nor was Stannis burning Shireen, so your comparison doesn't hold. TV Tyrion is not only "smart, funny and charming," he's a good guy, as D&D have repeatedly made clear. He's such a good guy, in fact, that unlike Book Tyrion, he can't bear the thought of Jaime and Cersei--both of whom profess to hate him and want him dead--dying as a result of Dany's invasion. That Tyrion's desire to spare his family from destruction is seen by some as a guarantee that he will turn on Jon and Dany is completely mystifying to me. To me, Tyrion being conflicted over the idea of Jaime and Cersei's deaths is just another reminder of Tyrion's saintliness in D&D's eyes, which points about as far away from a turn to villainy and betrayal as you can possibly get. The show provided ample hints and suggestions that Sansa would turn on her family, including an "ominous look" of her own in 6x10 matching Tyrion's supposed "ominous look" in 7x07, and she didn't. Tyrion has also been whitewashed in the show to the point that a face-heel turn would not be a "plot twist," it would be completely nonsensical. It would be about on the order of Davos slitting Jon's throat You're right about white washed Tyrion and him being basically a white knight. When I say betrayal it won't be malicious on his part or hell even about them but about saving Jaime's kid, his niece or nephew. Maybe it leads do someone getting hurt, killed or them losing a battle against the GC. And that alongside his other questionable decisions will make him look like a traitor. I'll be the first one to admit I'm biased towards this because I expect him to die in the books at hands of Jon Snow. Link to comment
SeanC October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 I think there's some basis in Season 7 for the idea that Tyrion's attitude toward Dany may be a point of contention in Season 8, but no way is that going to end in betrayal. I think it would be much more likely that they contrast Tyrion with Varys, who is much more likely to actually betray Dany and die as a result. Link to comment
Eyes High October 26, 2017 Author Share October 26, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, MadMouse said: You're right about white washed Tyrion and him being basically a white knight. When I say betrayal it won't be malicious on his part or hell even about them but about saving Jaime's kid, his niece or nephew. Maybe it leads do someone getting hurt, killed or them losing a battle against the GC. And that alongside his other questionable decisions will make him look like a traitor. I'll be the first one to admit I'm biased towards this because I expect him to die in the books at hands of Jon Snow. As if Ned 2.0 TV Jon is going to execute Tyrion for a "non-malicious" betrayal to save a child or similar. Does that really sound like something Jon would do? If Tyrion is a saint in the TV show, TV Jon, who magnanimously pardoned the Karstark and Umber heirs and who refused to order Melisandre's execution after she admitted to murdering a child, is a step up from that. If TV Jon did execute Tyrion, it would be because Tyrion did something truly terrible and exile wouldn't cut the mustard as punishment, not because of some mere misunderstanding blown out of proportion or because Tyrion tried to save a child's life. Since the show has ruled out a face-heel turn on Tyrion's part, and since he's extremely unlikely to do anything on the order of burning a child to death, it's safe to say that this won't happen...not to mention that Cersei was originally going to have a miscarriage in 7x07, so all the "Tyrion will betray Jon/Dany to save Cersei's baby" speculation is a non-starter. My question about Varys betraying Jon/Dany is the same as with Tyrion: whom could they betray Jon/Dany to? Is Varys going to sneak off to engage in clandestine negotiations with the Night King? Edited October 26, 2017 by Eyes High Link to comment
screamin October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 9 minutes ago, Eyes High said: He has seen the evidence for magical creatures, not for prophecy. It's perfectly possible to believe in one and not the other. Davos saw Melisandre birth a shadow baby assassin and saw her bring a man back from the dead, but he's always been disdainful of Melisandre's prophecies. Now, to be fair, S6 Tyrion was on board with Kinvara using Dany prophecy propaganda to advance Tyrion's agenda, but that's quite different from buying into a prophecy and relying on that prophecy to produce a specific outcome which you seemed to be suggesting was possible with Tyrion. Tyrion has always rolled his eyes at the Dany saviour prophecies; he believes in Dany, but not because the red priestesses claim she's going to save the world. The Others were prophesied. The Others are now here. That's concrete evidence. The Others were described in the legends as raising dead men to serve them; Tyrion has seen one and smelled it for himself. The Others are returning with their armies to invade the North just as was prophesied, and the Wall that well-read Tyrion knew very well was built to keep them out has broken down (even if he dismissed the stories as myths when he first read them). His queen has seen the armies herself and can tell him about it if he persists in doubting it. The armies of the dead have already claimed one dragon. THAT part of the prophecy has proven true no matter how much all would like to deny it. When the armies of the undead come through the wall en masse and turn out to be impossible to beat, do you think Tyrion is going to reject looking in prophesy as a clue to a solution if the world is desperate enough? Do you think he's going to read about Azor Ahai and TPTWP defeating the Night King and just brush it aside as silly myths when mythical Others are beating his armies and turning them to wights to fight against him? I'd say in such dire straits, to reject a possible solution when there are no others left (as we've already seen, dragons are no magic trump card) is the act of a much stupider man than Tyrion is. And if the solution requires Jon (who he likes, but doesn't love) to be sacrificed and enable his queen to survive and defeat the NK? I'd say Tyrion would go for it. Link to comment
Eyes High October 26, 2017 Author Share October 26, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, screamin said: The Others were prophesied. The Others are now here. That's concrete evidence. The Others were described in the legends as raising dead men to serve them; Tyrion has seen one and smelled it for himself. Again, Davos has seen Melisandre accomplish magical feats firsthand and still writes off her prophecies as self-serving bullshit. Tyrion can accept that WWs are real and still sneer at prophecies, just as he accepted that Dany's dragons were real while shrugging off Kinvara's saviour talk. The two are not incompatible. That Tyrion is going to go from a hardheaded rationalist who has scoffed at prophecy to not only buying into prophecies but also staking his future on the truth of those prophecies by manipulating Jon is unsupported by the show and the books, in my opinion. Quote The Others are returning with their armies to invade the North just as was prophesied, and the Wall that well-read Tyrion knew very well was built to keep them out has broken down Except Tyrion has never mentioned those prophecies in S7 or otherwise or indicated that his previous skepticism about prophecies has changed, which already blows a big hole in your theory. He is doing with the WWs what he did with the dragons: absorb them into his mindset by dealing with them using a rational framework, in Tyrion's case by accepting the threat and using a live wight to get Cersei on board with fighting that threat. What he hasn't done is turn into a prophecy-mad conspiracy theorist. Quote The armies of the dead have already claimed one dragon. THAT part of the prophecy has proven true Which prophecy foretold that the armies of the dead would take down a dragon? Quote And if the solution requires Jon (who he likes, but doesn't love) to be sacrificed and enable his queen to survive and defeat the NK? I'd say Tyrion would go for it. Sacrificing one of the only people who has ever offered him friendship and respect on the strength of his wholesale acceptance of the truth of a prophecy when he has always rejected prophecies as bullshit sounds about as far from Tyrion (in either the books or the show) as it gets. Edited October 26, 2017 by Eyes High Link to comment
screamin October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Eyes High said: Which prophecy foretold that the armies of the dead would take down a dragon? I beg your pardon. I was unclear. I did not mean that the old prophecies specifically spoke of a dragon dying. What I meant was that the prophecies foretold that there would be only ONE supernatural savior who could defeat the Night King. Jon not unnaturally assumed that dragons would be of great help against the Others, since they are destroyed by fire. And Tyrion is well-aware of the huge military power of the dragons (hell, he's spent much of his time with Dany trying to discourage her from overusing them as too barbaric). But both Jon and Tyrion were just shown that dragons are NOT a simple, easy solution to the problem of the Others. They thought dragons were an invincible trump card against every enemy. They know better now. So if dragons aren't the answer, what, oh what, can they do? Well, the only information about defeating the Others is in old wives' tales and thousand year old dusty books full of ridiculous icky prophecies, let's just ignore those - said no one, when surrounded and besieged by wights. Quote Except Tyrion has never mentioned those prophecies in S7 or otherwise or indicated that his previous skepticism about prophecies has changed, which already blows a big hole in your theory. He is doing with the WWs what he did with the dragons: absorb them into his mindset by dealing with them using a rational framework, in Tyrion's case by accepting the threat and using a live wight to get Cersei on board with fighting that threat. What he hasn't done is turn into a prophecy-mad conspiracy theorist. All the information that exists in the world about Others is in oral tales and ancient books full of legends and myths. Unfortunately, that's the ONLY information available on them. I don't think Tyrion - the man who asserted that books sharpen the mind - is going to reject researching in the only material he has about a threat against the world because it's contaminated with nasty myths. He may be skeptical - but he's going to READ. And since we know there is a great deal more truth in the legends than he suspects, he will probably allow his mind to be changed, the way a good scientist confronted with real-world evidence will eventually change his treasured but mistaken dogmas. Quote Sacrificing one of the only people who has ever offered him friendship and respect on the strength of his wholesale acceptance of the truth of a prophecy when he has always rejected prophecies as bullshit sounds about as far from Tyrion (in either the books or the show) as it gets. Now, when Tyrion still believes in the power of his own intelligence and military genius and Dany's army and dragons? Sure, he can afford to think that way. But after a series of defeats we all know are coming, when things get a lot more desperate? If Tyrion is forced to a choice between saving his queen and the world, or being faithful to an old friendship until the undefeated wights kill them all - I think in the end he would be practical enough to save his queen and the world and sacrifice Jon. This decision would undoubtedly be greatly eased by Jon almost certainly agreeing wholeheartedly to be the sacrifice and spare Dany, as it would be in character for Jon to do. Edited October 26, 2017 by screamin Link to comment
GrailKing October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 On 10/20/2017 at 1:30 PM, Eyes High said: Bran, Tyrion and Sansa aren't being set up as future rulers of Westeros, in either the books or the show. Neither Tyrion nor Sansa received a ruling dry run the way Jon and Dany did in ADWD. Not sure if I totally agree with this, at least, all three have the abilities for peace time rule, as far as military all they really need are some good advisers and generals, Sansa at least has one, Bran had one, and Tyrion needed one. I mean Elizabeth the 1st, wasn't a warrior, nor Elizabeth of York; right? 1 Link to comment
GrailKing October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 On 10/21/2017 at 4:15 PM, WindyNights said: See, this is a good argument based on the show. It's not somethinng that will happen in the books. Book Daenerys is going to lay waste to a lot of Westeros. "Everywhere the dragons danced, the people died." WE don't know that ! Yet. 1 Link to comment
screamin October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, WindyNights said: Stannis' character is based a lot on I, Claudius' Tiberius. Except GRRM made him a lot heroic. The Tiberius who was mainly the beneficiary of his mother's murderous ambition, who advanced not because he had any particular right to advancement or any strong feeling that he had a right to a higher place, but because his mom relentlessly murdered everyone who got in the way, though he was happy enough to carry on the tradition when she died? The one who amused himself with orgies on Capri with Caligula in his old age? Can't say as I see a strong resemblance. GRRM said the main characteristic he took from Tiberius was his 'unlikeability' when he wrote Stannis. I'd say they are many other differences besides 'righteousness'. Quote on Daenerys, I already said that I'm just following the foreshadowing, the tone and text. MMD's prophecy, HOTU(both versions, GRRM talking about the Second Dance, everywhere the dragons danced the people died, Daenerys basically saying no more nice Targaryen in her last chapter in ADWD, Chekhov's Wildfire and the introduction of "Aegon" Okay, you were previously talking about how you knew for certain that Book Dany would institute villainous massacres and die (probably pregnant) in the fight with the Others, so first I checked out the book HOTU scenes as summarized in AWOIAF. And I can't say that I see which scenes you mean that definitely prophecy what you're saying. I do see that there are scenes that take place in the HOTU that refer to things that never happened and never will; i.e: "In the House of the Undying Daenerys sees a tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair standing beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him," which seems a pretty clear vision of Rhaego as the Stallion that Mounts the World - a prophecy that never came true, a lie. So we must be careful which scenes we take as the truth. Which book HOTU prophecy do you think truly foresees your conviction that Dany will commit vile massacres and die? In the TV HOTU, yes, one can interpret the scene of Dany walking through the ruin of the Red Keep (which doesn't look as though it was burned, IMO, but whatever), beyond the Wall, and into Drogo's tent as a vision of the failure of her quest to retake the throne and her death. But, since she rejected it and the whole HOTU was subsequently shown to be a trap to try to keep Dany there ALIVE as a prisoner forever (thus negating the vision as a prophecy, and making it seem more like a decoy to discourage her from her quest and stay with sweet Drogo) I'd say we can't depend on it as the truth. And yes, 'everywhere the dragons danced, the people died.' And everywhere the Lannister Lions with their Mountain rode, the people died. Given the multitudes that have died since the war started, and the hero status of Aegon the Conqueror, I can't think there's really anything extra-specially-wicked about Dany using her dragons in war. I agree that the wildfire in KL is a Chekov's gun. But even if Dany attacks the Red Keep with her dragons and sets off the wildfire by mistake, I don't see how this condemns her morally beyond other leaders in the war. Cersei would undoubtedly have touched off the wildfire in defeat even if she were attacked by conventional armies. Does that mean anyone who tries to take Cersei down is evil? And since the show hasn't bothered to show Dany being outright evil upon her arrival in Westeros, and the showrunners have said they want to follow GRRM in the main thrust of narrative, I doubt Dany wickedly massacreing people is a huge plot point in the books either. Edited October 26, 2017 by screamin neatness counts. 3 Link to comment
GrailKing October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 On 10/22/2017 at 11:42 PM, Lemuria said: And doesn't that sound like Cersei. "I'm going to make them love me." How ominous. Is this sarcasm? An 11 / 12 year old as naive as Sansa wouldn't be thinking this in a vane or unjust way. I think Sansa wants Love:, Love of family, friends and people, she just hasn't learn that it takes more work then to want it to happen, bringing food or stockpiling it for the Winter is a good way to achieve that. 2 Link to comment
Eyes High October 26, 2017 Author Share October 26, 2017 (edited) 49 minutes ago, screamin said: Now, when Tyrion still believes in the power of his own intelligence and military genius and Dany's army and dragons? Sure, he can afford to think that way. But after a series of defeats we all know are coming, when things get a lot more desperate? If Tyrion is forced to a choice between saving his queen and the world, or being faithful to an old friendship until the undefeated wights kill them all - I think in the end he would be practical enough to save his queen and the world and sacrifice Jon. This decision would undoubtedly be greatly eased by Jon almost certainly agreeing wholeheartedly to be the sacrifice and spare Dany, as it would be in character for Jon to do. We'll have to agree to disagree on this. 41 minutes ago, GrailKing said: Not sure if I totally agree with this, at least, all three have the abilities for peace time rule, as far as military all they really need are some good advisers and generals, Sansa at least has one, Bran had one, and Tyrion needed one. I mean Elizabeth the 1st, wasn't a warrior, nor Elizabeth of York; right? My comment had nothing to do with the military aspect. Unlike Jon and Dan, neither Bran, nor Sansa, nor Tyrion have had arcs setting them up to be rulers of Westeros. At best, Sansa will use her experiences in the Vale to be a competent Lady of Winterfell in a non-independent North. She's not at all qualified to rule Westeros, and there's nothing in the books or show pointing to that outcome. At best, Tyrion will use his experiences as Hand to be a Hand to a king/queen worthy of his talents (unlike Joffrey). He's not at all qualified to rule Westeros, and there's nothing in the books or show pointing to that outcome. I'm not sure why you're mentioning Elizabeth of York, since Elizabeth of York was queen consort with no governance responsibilities of her own, quite a different thing from being queen regnant. Unless endgame Jonsa is a thing (unlikely), Sansa's never going to be queen consort. Moreover, I think TV Sansa given her experiences and outlook would balk at any situation where her power derived from her husband's status (as Lady of the Vale, e.g.) as opposed to enjoying power in her own right, which she would as Lady of Winterfell. Edited October 26, 2017 by Eyes High 1 Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.