S07.E07: Ka Makuahine A Me Ke Keikikane / Mother and Son

[anna0852]

That's how they were introduced to her, back in Season 1.

[BW Manilowe]

On November 26, 2016 at 6:17 PM, Mittengirl said:

Ganesh, just curious, but to whom do you find it condescending - the adult or the child?   

I can see why some cultures do it.  It is less formal than Mr. or Mrs., but not as casual as using just the first name.  But, to me, it only makes sense for relationships that start when the child is very young and the relationship is very close - I.e. day-to-day personal interactions.  

I find Grace referring to Steve, and Kono especially, as auntie and uncle odd. (Have we ever heard her refer to Chin as "uncle"?) Grace was not raised in a culture that does that, I would guess.  She has only known them since she was about 7 years old and she doesn't seem to spend that much with them casually, certainly not Kono anyway.  

Gracie's never called him "Uncle Chin" but, in the scene in Ep 104 (Lanakila [Victory]), I think it was (it might've been Ep 103, the title of which translates to "Respect the Land"), where Grace meets the team at the Kukui High football game where the gang-related shooting breaks out, when Chin introduced himself to Gracie, he said "And I'm Uncle Chin" (having introduced himself after Steve & Kono). He also pointed to his chin, presumably so Gracie would understand that was his name. Seeing as Chin was raised in the Hawaiian culture, & is Gracie's elder, I wasn't necessarily surprised he'd do that, since the team had--for the most part--become ʻohana since the 4 of them got together; more like I was surprised that the script took the effort to be culturally accurate & have him do that since Gracie was Danny's family, & now also Five-0's.

It makes perfect sense, to me, that Gracie would also come to call Steve "Uncle Steve", though he didn't introduce himself that way in the scene I referred to & appeared to not care if Gracie called him by his first name (he said, "Hi Gracie. I'm Steve.). At least based on when you stated you see it appropriate for a child to call someone who actually isn't related to them "Aunt/Auntie" or "Uncle". She & Steve may not have day-to-day personal interactions (though they seem to see each other fairly regularly, at least I get the vibe there are Gracie/team/Uncle Steve interactions that occur offscreen), but their relationship did start when she was very young (as you said, Gracie was 7--& she, the character, actually was; they mentioned at the end of the ep Gracie had a birthday coming up &, in eps after that, for the rest of S1, she was said to be 8... so it was her 8th birthday), & Steve & Gracie's relationship became very close (which you seem to think is another "prerequisite" for a child to call a non-relative "Aunt/Auntie" or "Uncle"), as did Steve's relationship with Danny (to where they feel like brothers).

To be fair, we don't really know if Gracie was raised in a situation (before moving to Hawaii, that is) where calling non-relatives "Aunt/Auntie" or "Uncle" is considered proper or not. We've only seen her being raised in Hawaii/the Hawaiian culture, which she seems to have respect for, even though Danny doesn't (or at least didn't when he first moved to Hawaii--the stuff with trampling through the heiau crime scene before it could be blessed, or whatever, among other things). And it's proper for children, & even adults, to call their non-related elders "Aunt/Auntie" or "Uncle" in that culture (Kono even did it to at least Kamekona in the ep where the ex-SEAL with PTSD, who was accused of killing his wife, took hostages from a USS Missouri tour group). Gracie may have a lot of non-related "Aunts/Aunties" & "Uncles" in New Jersey & England that we don't know about... Yet.

I found it sort of odd that Gracie called Kono "Auntie" in the ep where Kono got lost at sea during the solo outrigger trip she was making on her mother's behalf (when the extended ʻohana was with Kono at the outrigger before she left, Gracie said something like, "I brought you something, Auntie." & gave Kono flowers or something). In the scene I keep referring to, where Gracie met the team for the first time, Kono introduced herself as "I'm Kono.", with just her first name like Steve, not seeming to care if Gracie showed her the respect she "deserved" in the Hawaiian culture, as 1 of Gracie's elders, or not. I just figured Kono didn't care about using the "Aunt/Auntie" formality because, while still Gracie's elder, she was still closer in age to Gracie than Steve or Chin. But, again to be fair, while Gracie & Kono have shared scenes on the show (but not many) before, they haven't really had any interactions where Gracie would call Kono anything. Obviously, the "Auntie" thing with Kono developed offscreen, as did the "Uncle" thing with Steve. I think Gracie spends a reasonable amount of time with the team, given that they have work, & lives that don't include each other, & Gracie has school, activities, & a life that includes her dad, but doesn't always include the rest of the team. Though, of all the team/ʻohana included, it appears Gracie spends the least amount of time with Kono & Chin, when she's with any of the team, for whatever reason.

Edited November 28, 2016 by BW Manilowe
To change a punctuation mark. And to fix a spacing issue.

[BW Manilowe]

On November 26, 2016 at 10:23 AM, ganesh said:

That may well be but the white people are doing it to so I'm not getting the feeling that TPTBs are steeped in cultural heritage as much as it is a TV trope. And it still strikes me as condescending regardless. I don't even have students use my proper title. 

Hawaiians aren't all of non-white descent, as I'm sure you're aware. If the non-white Hawaiians can call their elders "Aunt/Auntie" & "Uncle", the white Hawaiians should be able to as well--including the fictional ones who were actually born "Jersey Girls", like Gracie.

And I've read plenty about how H50 strives to be culturally accurate--I'm pretty sure they have a "cultural advisor" who, if not always on set, they can go to with questions about how the Hawaiian people/culture would do certain things. Grace Park referred to him on 1 of the DVD episode commentaries/the DVD episode commentary on the S1 DVDs. I think it's (at least in more recent seasons, if not always) 1 of the Hawaiian priests who've presided over at least 1 of the set blessing ceremonies on the first day of filming.

And, by the way, if the show makes the effort to actually have a set blessing ceremony on the first day of filming, & they've done it for all 7 seasons now (as far as I know--& I'm not completely certain about when/if a blessing happened in S1) I don't agree at all that TPTB aren't steeped in cultural heritage & it's just "a TV trope", as you called it. If they didn't care about that tradition, they wouldn't have been doing it since the show started at least filming after the Pilot (as we all know, the Pilot was filmed, like, in March 2010, separately from the other 21 eps of S1, which started filming in July 2010 after the Pilot got a series commitment--while they blessed the set, as I can remember, once the actual series began filming I'm not sure if they blessed the set for the filming of a possible "one-off" Pilot).

[ganesh]

I meant Danny, Grace, Steve, Jerry= as the "white people". Probably needed clarification there. I grant that Steve is actually "native", but as it was said before, he introduced himself to the kids as "Steve". So I don't think the "cultural" argument applies in his case. 

I'm just not buying that Grace has been calling family members "aunt" or "uncle". We don't know, but I'm going to guess that if anything, she'd probably say Mister Steve, or Mister Mac as a kid in NJ. 

I think it's a trope because I don't feel like it's an organic character development. It's analogous to calling your SO "baby" or "honey" "sweetheart" (but not Sweetie Darling, that's ok) *on tv*. It's banal and trite. Give me a break, tons of kids on tv use "aunt" or "uncle", so arguing that it's relevant to the culture of Hawaii here is tenuous at best. It's a trope because it's a lazy writing go-to. 

"Danno" is organic to the character. It's unique and something we only find on this show. 

I dispute the point that *this* is part of being culturally aware on the show, though I will concede that I do get the impression they are trying to be culturally aware in general. 

Quote

I find Grace referring to Steve, and Kono especially, as auntie and uncle odd. (Have we ever heard her refer to Chin as "uncle"?) Grace was not raised in a culture that does that, I would guess.  She has only known them since she was about 7 years old and she doesn't seem to spend that much with them casually, certainly not Kono anyway.  

In the scene I keep referring to, where Gracie met the team for the first time, Kono introduced herself as "I'm Kono.", with just her first name like Steve, not seeming to care if Gracie showed her the respect she "deserved"   in the Hawaiian culture, as 1 of Gracie's elders, or not. 

In case these points was missed before, I think this sums it up. In-show, in the past, the "cultural honorific" wasn't acknowledged, and I'd go so far as to posit that TPTBs put next to no thought in to this. So trying to apply it to how Grace or her brother refers to Jerry is just ex post facto. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by ganesh

[Raja]

4 hours ago, ganesh said:

I meant Danny, Grace, Steve, Jerry= as the "white people". Probably needed clarification there. I grant that Steve is actually "native", but as it was said before, he introduced himself to the kids as "Steve". So I don't think the "cultural" argument applies in his case. 

I'm just not buying that Grace has been calling family members "aunt" or "uncle". We don't know, but I'm going to guess that if anything, she'd probably say Mister Steve, or Mister Mac as a kid in NJ. 

I think it's a trope because I don't feel like it's an organic character development. It's analogous to calling your SO "baby" or "honey" "sweetheart" (but not Sweetie Darling, that's ok) *on tv*. It's banal and trite. Give me a break, tons of kids on tv use "aunt" or "uncle", so arguing that it's relevant to the culture of Hawaii here is tenuous at best. It's a trope because it's a lazy writing go-to. 

"Danno" is organic to the character. It's unique and something we only find on this show. 

I dispute the point that *this* is part of being culturally aware on the show, though I will concede that I do get the impression they are trying to be culturally aware in general. 

In case these points was missed before, I think this sums it up. In-show, in the past, the "cultural honorific" wasn't acknowledged, and I'd go so far as to posit that TPTBs put next to no thought in to this. So trying to apply it to how Grace or her brother refers to Jerry is just ex post facto. 

I think Jerry is also a native, in any case a high school classmate of Chin Ho even if he comes off as little brother to Uncle Steve. And at least in Steve's case the family is multi-generational Hawaiian. In any case both wings of my family from the Philippines and Louisiana would use "Uncle" just like Grace has. While Kono playing younger than Grace Park's actual age may have gone with big sister instead of auntie.

[BW Manilowe]

On November 27, 2016 at 4:39 PM, ganesh said:

I meant Danny, Grace, Steve, Jerry= as the "white people". Probably needed clarification there. I grant that Steve is actually "native", but as it was said before, he introduced himself to the kids as "Steve". So I don't think the "cultural" argument applies in his case. 

I'm just not buying that Grace has been calling family members "aunt" or "uncle". We don't know, but I'm going to guess that if anything, she'd probably say Mister Steve, or Mister Mac as a kid in NJ. 

I think it's a trope because I don't feel like it's an organic character development. It's analogous to calling your SO "baby" or "honey" "sweetheart" (but not Sweetie Darling, that's ok) *on tv*. It's banal and trite. Give me a break, tons of kids on tv use "aunt" or "uncle", so arguing that it's relevant to the culture of Hawaii here is tenuous at best. It's a trope because it's a lazy writing go-to. 

"Danno" is organic to the character. It's unique and something we only find on this show. 

I dispute the point that *this* is part of being culturally aware on the show, though I will concede that I do get the impression they are trying to be culturally aware in general. 

In case these points was missed before, I think this sums it up. In-show, in the past, the "cultural honorific" wasn't acknowledged, and I'd go so far as to posit that TPTBs put next to no thought in to this. So trying to apply it to how Grace or her brother refers to Jerry is just ex post facto. 

I wasn't the poster trying to apply it to how Gracie or Charlie refer to Jerry (but I assume he gave them permission to do it offscreen--as so many important/semi-important things in this show seem to happen). As for the rest of it, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[BW Manilowe]

19 hours ago, Raja said:

I think Jerry is also a native, in any case a high school classmate of Chin Ho even if he comes off as little brother to Uncle Steve. And at least in Steve's case the family is multi-generational Hawaiian. In any case both wings of my family from the Philippines and Louisiana would use "Uncle" just like Grace has. While Kono playing younger than Grace Park's actual age may have gone with big sister instead of auntie.

I'm not sure if Jerry (& his sister, Isabel, whom we met in Ep 620) is a native-born Hawaiian either, but he was definitely a classmate of Chin's at Kukui High; 1 of his first eps was when Chin & Jerry went to 1 of their class reunions together, as friends, & a classmate was murdered there (it was also the ep where the audience got to vote on various elements involved in the ep). I think Steve's family's considered kamaʻāina, though they may have contradicted themselves by the way they've described Steve's Hawaiian heritage in the show. I'm Filipina/southern US (Alabama, in my case) in background too (Filipino dad/southern US mom), if I haven't mentioned it in a previous post to you. And my family also did the "Aunt/Uncle" thing as they do (or similar to it) in Hawaii (I had at least 2 sets of non-related Aunts & Uncles, growing up). I kinda figured maybe Kono was supposed to be treating Gracie as more of a "little sister", as you said, by not including the "Aunt/Auntie" with her name when she introduced herself to Gracie, even though her cousin Chin used the "Uncle"--whether or not it was an "acting choice" by Grace Park because Kono's supposed to be the youngest on the Five-0 team, or it was in the script.

[Babalu]

I don't think calling people "Auntie" or "Uncle" is lazy or a trope at all for this show. It's just part of living in Hawai'i and becomes very natural very quickly, even if you weren't born and raised there. I lived there for ten years until a couple of months ago, and I was called "Auntie" all the time. It makes a lot of sense that Grace would pick that up from her friends, even if she wasn't raised to use those terms. (I actually like being called "Auntie [Babalu]" by my Mainland friends' children, too, because they are like family, even though we're not related. The mom is Filipina, though, so maybe it is cultural, as @BW Manilowe said.)

[Vermicious Knid]

If you're terribly interested in kinship structures, Hawaii's is generational. In fact all system of this kind are called Hawaiian. It uses the least complex kinship terms where everyone in a generation is addressed by the same term. Traditionally anyone in your parents' generation was also father/mother, everyone in the generation above is grandmother/grandfather, and anyone in your own generation is brother/sister. Usage, and most likely Western influence, has evolved over time to uncle/aunt instead of father/mother, and cousin instead of sibling terms. I was going to provide a link but pretty much everything is too technical for a casual read.