Upon First Viewing

[peaceout]

So I recently watched Buffy for the first time ever. I went into the show almost completely unspoiled and I absolutely loved it. I've seen a lot of tv over a lot of years but few have resonated with me the way Buffy did. The good folks over at the Buffy forums also highly recommended Angel, so here I am. Even more unspoiled than I was regarding Buffy.

I've watched through till Parting Gifts and I'm really enjoying the season so far. I'm liking that the show seems like it belongs to the universe created in Buffy, yet is also adding to that universe by expanding it in different ways. It's not pretending that the mother show doesn't exist but at the same time it's showing the potential to stand on its own feet as well. One of the things I find particularly interesting is the show's portrayals of demons. I liked that ocassionally in Buffy too, with demons like Clem and that Books of Ascension demon from season three, we come across demon characters that are multi layered and even assimilated somewhat into society. I think the setting of LA provides a much better opportunity for this because it has such a larger scope to play with. 

I loved City Of. An excellent introductory ep that set up the premise of the show and established the characters. I really appreciated the continuity of Angel still reeling from not only having left Buffy but also having drank from her. What Doyle said about connecting with people in that context made a lot of sense. The overall storyline was interesting too and the ending just really made it. I loved the entire sequence of Angel walking into the conference room, facing off entirely nonplussed with the lawyer dude and then just casually throwing whatshisface out of the window. I think that's the scene that made me sit up and realize I could come to love this show. 

Cordelia was one of my favourite characters in the first three seasons of Buffy and I was so sad to lose her presence in Sunnydale. Her presence in the first ep here, in that context, felt a little jarring. Almost like she was shoe horned in. But how quickly that changed right from the very next ep and now even just 10 eps in, I can't imagine this show without her. She is like that wonderful foil to Angel who isn't afraid to speak her mind at all, and this I feel could result in amazing things for each character's development. I loved Room With a View, for Cordy's development. That entire part from when she decides to stand up to the ghost and reclaim her apartment and her identity was brilliant. Yes, Cordelia may be self involved and she may be tactless, but three seasons of development in Buffy and now here in Angel, her strength of character has continued to evolve beautifully. Even in little moments back over in Buffy, I remember how when push came to shove, she was right there. Whether it meant giving someone a lift even in her car, to continuing to help through thick and thin despite the fallout with Xander, she did it all, in her unique Cordelia way. She's self aware too, which makes her all the more fun to watch. Watching her seize control her life was terrific. 

Why did they kill Doyle?! I was SO enjoying him as a character. Don't get me wrong, I liked seeing Wesley back and he was absolutely hilarious in Parting Gifts, but why off Doyle? He was shaping up to be such an interesting character and I was loving him and Cordy together. But it's truly a testament to the way the character was developed even in such few eps and the actor who played him, that by the end of Hero, when Angel and Cordy are watching him on screen, I actually teared up. But now I'm guessing Wesley is here to stay?

I am so intrigued by this Kate character! Loving this uneasy, not quite completely trusting but still alliance type of dynamic that seems to be going on between her and Angel. Surely she has to find out at some point that Angel is a vampire. They've set up her character in such a way that her reaction should be very interesting. Could go either way. 

Another thing I'm really enjoying is this slow build up and hints we get of the law firm (the name is escaping me right now!). We've seen I think about 2-3 of their lawyers by this point and each has been more despicable than the next. I have to assume at this point that the firm has some demonic roots. Or maybe not and I'm still bringing my Buffy baggage into this, because on that show the only non-demon villains were the season six losers. I do think the lawyers are all human but the firm itself has some kind of demonic roots. 

As a huge fan of Buffy and Angel together, I Will Remember You simply gutted me. In one ep we loved and lost, lol. I have this renewed sympathy for Angel though, now that he's the only one who will ever remember that day while Buffy went on oblivious. Heartbreaking for him and us as fans of the two. I thought both actors did such a brilliant job with the entire gamut of emotions they went through in the ep, and made each beat so real and so true to them, it was just a pleasure to watch. In that last scene before the day was reversed, you could literally feel this palpable desperation. Really nicely done.

Angel's character development has really stayed true of his history so far but still showing him capable and wanting to seek a greater purpose and establish a meaning to his life. Yes, he's riddled with guilt that comes with the soul but he's not shying away from at least trying to connect with his new purpose in life. Even if that starts with baby steps like allowing Cordelia, Doyle and I'm assuming now Wesley into his life.

I have to mention here before I forget, how much I loved In the Dark! Seeing Spike again, so recently after he was killed in the Buffy season finale, made it even more refreshing to see him here not just because Spike, Hi! but also because it reminded me the incarnation of Spike I probably loved the most, circa season 2 to pre-chip. That's not to say I didn't enjoy him tremendously in season four and five but this Spike, the impetuous villain with a plan that he just can't seem to have a grasp on, making uneasy alliances wherever he can, and being funny as hell while at it, I loved the most. It was great to see Oz too. Oz...sniff.

I think so far I've enjoyed City Of, In the Dark, Room With A View, Sense & Sensitivity, The Bachelor Party and I Will Remember You the most. I'll admit I found myself looking over at the the clock several times during I Fall to Pieces while Lonely Hearts and Parting Gifts were more of a mixed bag.

Really looking forward to the rest!

[Erratic]

Also, shout out to the wonderful 'cello theme tune. I hated it initially, but grew to adore it.

i think you will get used to Wesley faster than you think, Peaceout. Trust me on this :)

[azshadowwalker]

Love the theme music. It still gives me chills when I hear it after a long period. Ats is much dearer to me than BTVS. Its cancelation saddened me much more, and I don't think I have gotten into any scripted show as deeply since, even though I loved Veronica Mars. After Angel was pulled, only a year after Firefly, it didn't seem worth investing in character driven stories anymore. Much better to devote my time to self-contained seasons of competitive reality shows and sports. 

[peaceout]

I'm up to The Prodigal, now. This has been an interesting stretch because I think some eps like Somnambulist, I've Got You Under My Skin and The Prodigal were excellent while others like Expecting and She just didn't do much for me at all. There were parts of She, namely the goofy dancing during which I literally LOL'd so much and I thought the last scene of Expecting was very sweet. But moreorless these two eps were painfully boring. 

But I think the other three eps in this stretch more than made up for things. I think my favourite of the three was probably IGYUMS. What a genuinely disturbing and creepy premise. I loved the almost unsettling build up towards the climax where it was so creepily revealed that it was the demon who wanted out, not the boy. Very interesting commentary on what makes us 'human.' 

I also really liked Somnanbulist and The Prodigal too and hey, hi Jeremy Renner! And now that I think of it, wasn't the vampire that Angel dusted before the opening credits of the pilot, Josh Holloway? I love seeing glimpses of Angel's past and it really adds great imagery to the show, showing his then and now. I'm so glad Kate knows. A clueless Kate would eventually be just a huge disservice to both the character and the show. That entire scene at the end when she finally kills Penn and then stumbles on to the ground besides Angel, utterly shocked and dazed, was so well done. The sub story in The Prodigal about Kate's dad was also really interesting and really reveals the power play angle a lot of the vampires and demons have going on here in LA. Angel being unable to help her dad while standing right there, another disturbing but effective scene. 

I'm finding Kate incredibly compelling to watch. It's almost like seeing a reaction unravel to what goes bump in the night that's probably the closest to what an average person would have, and then watching that knowledge mess with one's head. Really very interesting to watch.

The other thing I'm really liking is the slow but sure build up towards creating a genuine family dynamic between Angel, Cordelia and Wesley. And Erratic, you're right, Wesley has already grown on me tremendously. 

Thanks for the info on Doyle, nosleepforme. I had no idea the actor died. Sad. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by peaceout

[joelene]

10 hours ago, peaceout said:

I'm up to The Prodigal, now. This has been an interesting stretch because I think some eps like Somnambulist, I've Got You Under My Skin and The Prodigal were excellent while others like Expecting and She just didn't do much for me at all. There were parts of She, namely the goofy dancing during which I literally LOL'd so much and I thought the last scene of Expecting was very sweet. But moreorless these two eps were painfully boring. 

But I think the other three eps in this stretch more than made up for things. I think my favourite of the three was probably IGYUMS. What a genuinely disturbing and creepy premise. I loved the almost unsettling build up towards the climax where it was so creepily revealed that it was the demon who wanted out, not the boy. Very interesting commentary on what makes us 'human.' 

She is considered one of the worst of the series, I believe. I've said it before but it's a shame the party scene isn't in a better episode. I like Expecting tho, I think it's pretty fun, but for sure it'a not the best. But then I also really grew to love Lonely Hearts and I Fall To Pieces. Not my faves in the beginning but after multiple rewatches I really think they're great and so much fun. I LOVE I've Got You Under My Skin. Great twist.

I'm not Kate'a biggest fan overall, but I do like what she brings to the table. I think it was a good character to bring on.

Currently doing a rewatch as well. Just started season 4! You're in for a real ride, peaceout.

[FurryFury]

I never really warmed up to Kate, unfortunately. Part of that was the actress, part of that was me expecting a romance between her and Angel and having an instinctual dislike for that, plus I never felt like cops or law enforcement fit well into Buffyverse in general. Still, I grew to appreciate her eventually, but later, during one of the best episode stretches on the show in s2.

As for actors who grew up to be famous, yes, it was Josh Holloway in the pilot. Also, Jennifer Garner of Alias fame had an uncredited role as one of the pregnant ladies in "Expecting". Interestingly, I don't remember Jeremy Renner at all.

The theme music is amazeballs. Probably my favorite TV opening tune ever. 

15 hours ago, peaceout said:

But I think the other three eps in this stretch more than made up for things. I think my favourite of the three was probably IGYUMS. What a genuinely disturbing and creepy premise. I loved the almost unsettling build up towards the climax where it was so creepily revealed that it was the demon who wanted out, not the boy. Very interesting commentary on what makes us 'human

I didn't fall in love with the show until my second viewing, but this was the first episode that I really liked when I watched in the first time. Although this idea may seem trite on the current TV landscape, back then it felt really original and shocking. 

[GreenScreenFX]

Glenn Quinn, RIP. He couldnt keep his shit together sadly. I loved him since he was Becky's boyfriend/ husband on Roseanne. I never knew he was really Irish until after he died. I always thought he was doing a bad accent on Angel. Goes to show you that I have a bad ear for accents.

 

My favorite line on Angel " Can you fly?.... guess not."

[Delphi]

I thought Kate had a lot of potential in season one.   I wouldn't say that I enjoyed her, but I always wanted to enjoy her, if that makes any sense. 

I maintain that season one is one of my favourite seasons of anything ever. 

I also really enjoyed Lonely Hearts, and I Fall to Pieces.   I enjoyed the episodes that actually tried to shed focus on Angel: immortal private eye.  I thought the idea was promising. 

[GreenScreenFX]

I love Kate

[buffynut]

peaceout: I see you're flying right along through the Angel series.  I will enjoy reading your comments, but will likely have to stop reading at some point to keep myself from getting spoiled. That's because I never finished watching the series. Though I loved Angel (the character) after a while I lost interest in the series and stopped watching.  I don't even know how many seasons there were!  Pretty bad, for a Buffy fan, eh!  

I loved Doyle too and was mad when they killed him off. But I also remember reading about the actor's personal troubles at the time, and was saddened when a few years later he died.

Edited October 25, 2016 by buffynut

[peaceout]

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I've said it before but it's a shame the party scene isn't in a better episode.

Honestly, it deserved to be. 'She' is still my least favourite ep of the season so far.

I'm up to Sanctuary now. I absolutely loved Five by Five and Sanctuary, both! A couple of things over on Buffy make a lot more sense now. I thought Eliza Dushku was brilliant in these two eps as was Alexis Denisof. I find their dynamic so very interesting, I almost wish we could have had more scenes with them together. I also thought Angel and Wesley's argument or opposing POV discussion after Angel had brought Faith back, was very well written, because I could see my self alternately agreeing with both sides of the argument. Even over on Buffy, for a brief time there, Angel believed there might have been something in Faith to pull her back, to save her, if you will. And given the flashbacks of his past, of course he believes she can atone. He has to believe it, because he's living it. He has to believe there's something worth saving in her, because he has to believe it of himself too. What I find really interesting is that Angel didn't start off the ep necessarily feeling this way though. Whatever Giles told him about Faith and Buffy clearly motivated the anger within him, rather than empathy, and understandably so, considering he still loves Buffy. I felt as he interacted with Faith more and more, he truly began to see those 'cries for help' he was referring to because Faith was just manic. Under the mayor, she was dangerous as hell, but also oddly regulated, if that makes any sense. But since she woke up from the coma, she's been unhinged on a whole other level, and a lot of that is driven by the fact that she's completely lost, both within herself and her place in the world. Angel can see that because he's lived through that on some level too. Which is why I felt like that moment of realization finally occured in the fight scene in the rain. I think Faith in her final scene in the jail scene in Sanctuary, makes me understand the Faith of the last five eps of Buffy a lot better. She found her peace. I hated Buffy and Angel fighting but dammit, I was still just happy to have another scene of them together. Their exchange of words in that last scene was brutal, but I know The Yoko Factor over on Buffy is coming up, so it makes things somewhat better, because I loved their final scene in that ep. And again, their interations in that ep make a lot more sense now, after having watched this.

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I loved the flashbacks. Any glimpses in Angel's past always fascinate me. Now that I've seen various glimpses of Angel, Darla, Spike and Drusilla's past, I can't quite put my finger on why but I find Darla to be the scariest, even though I've seen the least of her. She's utterly cold and vicious and yet she is so emotionally entwined with Angelus. In a different way than Spike and Drusilla were though. I know I'm not saying this very well, but yeah. Just get the creeps from her the most.

I enjoyed The Ring as well. My favourite parts of the ep were watching Wesley and Cordelia working together. They make a great team, and the three of them make so much sense as a family unit now. The fight storyline I was more meh on, but I do like that the show is consistently doing this world building when it comes to demons. Makes things interesting but of course I foumd it hilarious that my reaction was almost identical to Wesley and Cordelia's at the end of the ep, with regards to having 'saved the day' by letting the demons loose. Lol. 

Eternity was not so great. Parts of it were funny but I found the Rebecca storyline and character incredibly annoying. It did raise an interesibng question I asked back when I was watching Season 3 of Buffy. What exactly are the specifics of Angel's soul losing? Is it sex, period? Or is it sex with Buffy? Or sex with someone he's in love with? Because wow, so he can never have sex?! I tend to agree more with Wesley, that the euphoria experienced in that moment with Buffy is not likely to replicated in the exact way, so surely it's not just the physicality of sex, but more the emotional connection that probably does it.

Another thing I've just simply loved in this stretch of eps is the focus on the Wolfram and Hart lawyers. Each one more despicable than the next but Lyla and Lindsay are just particularly enjoyable to watch.

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I never really warmed up to Kate, unfortunately. Part of that was the actress, part of that was me expecting a romance between her and Angel and having an instinctual dislike for that, plus I never felt like cops or law enforcement fit well into Buffyverse in general. Still, I grew to appreciate her eventually, but later, during one of the best episode stretches on the show in s2.

You know, I haven't seen the possibility of romance, to be honest. Not yet anyway. I can clearly see an attraction from Kate's side, and I think on some level Angel is drawn to her too, wanting to be taken seriously and credibly in his new persona, probably feels more 'normal' or 'human' in his interactions with her. But I haven't felt it could lead to a romance. Too much complicated stuff going on in Kate's head I feel, for that to ever happen. 

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I maintain that season one is one of my favourite seasons of anything ever. 

It is shaping up to be an excellent season!

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Though I loved Angel (the character) after a while I lost interest in the series and stopped watching.  I don't even know how many seasons there were!  Pretty bad, for a Buffy fan, eh!  

No, I've abandoned certain shows sometimes too, for certain reasons. I think the last time I did that was with Gilmore Girls, I think midway through season 6. Only ended up finishing the series years later. 

[ByTor]

On 10/24/2016 at 10:27 PM, GreenScreenFX said:

Glenn Quinn, RIP. He couldnt keep his shit together sadly. I loved him since he was Becky's boyfriend/ husband on Roseanne. I never knew he was really Irish until after he died. I always thought he was doing a bad accent on Angel. Goes to show you that I have a bad ear for accents.

I think David Boreanaz owns the market on bad Irish accents :)

[Delphi]

I'm going to put this in a tag, because I'm not sure when they discuss the conditions of Angels soul, but it's not super spoilery or anything like that:

Spoiler

It's not the sex so much that causes Angel to lose his soul but instead a moment of true, complete happiness that he achieved in being so intimate and absolutely in love with Buffy.  What's the point of the gypsies cursing him if he can be happy?

[joelene]

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Another thing I've just simply loved in this stretch of eps is the focus on the Wolfram and Hart lawyers. Each one more despicable than the next but Lyla and Lindsay are just particularly enjoyable to watch.

I love Wolfram & Hart and its place on the show so much. I enjoy Lindsay a lot but Lilah is on a whole other level. One of my favorite characters in the Buffyverse. Lee Mercer and his grin is pretty good too, tho. Shame we never saw Mac, the lawyer from Parting Gifts, again because that actress was hilariously crazy on the Aaron Spelling soap Sunset Beach so I always wanted to see what she could have brought to the table. 

Shame you didn't enjoy Eternity more, it's one of my favourites. Admittedly a lot of that is because of Cordelia.

Faith's redemption arc on Angel is so, so good.

[peaceout]

I finished season one last night. I thoroughly enjoyed it! What an excellent introductory season it has been, on the whole. I really liked the last three eps but I think Blind Date was probably my favourite. I absolutely love that we got to see so more of the inner workings at Wolfram and Hart because I find them fascinating. I think they have real potential to be consistent thorns in Angel and co's side and it just ups the stakes in terms of the larger picture. I loved all the scenes between Lindsay and that Holland guy. Ultimately, with the direction Lindsay ended the ep in, I appreciated that they established that even a possibly irredeemable person like Lindsay (and largely so because he chooses not to redeem) has certain boundaries and limits, which in this case, were children. Of course, the really interesting question now is that would he still make the same choices again? Does he still have  any 'no go areas?' Or has he well and truly irrevocably sold his soul? I find Lindsay more interesting than ever and really enjoy watching him and Angel in scenes together because it's a different side to Angel that comes out. He just makes no pretenses whatsoever with Lindsay.

I really liked To Shanshu in LA too, and wow, that's quite a prophecy. Certainly not one that had come true till 'Chosen' in any case but then I haven't seen how Angel ends its run. One of my absolute favourite parts of the ep was seeing the growing bond between Angel and Wesley and Cordy. It has been so beautifully and believably developed over the course of the season. And it's not just the heavy, dramatic scenes that actually carry the word 'family' that establish this, but sometimes the quieter, but funnier ones that do the trick even better. Like there's this wonderful little moment in Warzone when Angel was stuck inside a locked room and Cordy and Wesley rescue him. They remind him he had a cell phone and could have just called them for help while Angel has been literally breaking the door with his bare hands. I'm not articulating it very well, but that whole scene just sums up their little family dynamic perfectly. Angel is so wonderfully crabby and impatient and old fashioned and Wesley is perfectly droll and dry and when Angel has conveniently snubbed them, Cordy's snappy, loud and annoyed 'you're welcome' is just so perfectly Cordy. I love them. 

I like this new character, Gunn. I hope he's returns in season two because I'd love to see him interact with Wesley and Cordy and I already love his and Angel's scenes together.

So, Darla! I did not see that coming! Can't wait for season two! 

ETA: I forgot to add how much I loved that little call to Willow in Blind Date. I got a real kick knowing that at that point the Buffy scoobies were de-encrypting files too, lol. This must be The Yoko Factor-Primeval time. 

Edited October 30, 2016 by peaceout

[trudi-tru]

Season one is my favourite Angel's season. Everything is just so simple and innocent and I loved watching Angel slowly build his own family and becoming his own person after being "Buffy's Boyfriend" for three years.

[ByTor]

Unpopular as hell, but I enjoyed season 1, and then they had to go & muck it up with Darla, I hated hated HATED her.

[peaceout]

I started Season 2 last night. I'm up to Untouched now. I loved the second ep and I liked the third one well enough too but wasn't really feeling the first and fourth ep. I thought after the brilliant finale last season, the season premiere was a little dull. Boring even. Best part about the ep was seeing Faith again. And with the fourth ep, although I liked seeing Lilah and Holland back, again, the storyline didn't really grab me. I did really love the second ep though. I love seeing glimpses of Angel's past and this was such a rich ep in that regard. It's fun connecting the dots in Angel's timeline. To think he went from the recently ensouled version of the 1800's to this almost completely apathetic but generally functioning version of the 1950's to the rat eating alley dwelling version of the 1990's. Fascinating. It's so interesting that just as Angel was showing signs of beginning to care or become invested in humanity, that happened. His 'take them all' was chilling. 

I liked all the Cordy-Gunn and Fred-Wesley interactions in First Impressions, even though generally again, the storyline was mostly on the meh side. 

There's something a bit off about this season so far and I'm not sure what it is. Maybe I'm not really feeling the Darla scenes. Which is strange because I was loving her flashbacks last season and I find her utterly chilling and so interesting in her flashbacks. But wtf is going on here? She's putting Angel to sleep and putting the moves on him? And he's so willingly being swept away by these dreams too? Doesn't really seem to gel. Also, I'm not sure but  I'm finding some of the writing for Cordy this season a little off as well. Almost, I don't know, not preachy but overtly mature or kind of, I don't know. Like I said I'm not doing a very good job articulating what I mean. I love that she's evolving but I just don't want her to become mother teresa either. She's always put aside her differences and whatever issues she may otherwise have to do the right thing and help, even in Buffy and that's one of the things I've loved about her ever since but some of her reactions and speeches in First Impressions and Untouched were a little too...noble sounding? 

Hoping the rest of the season picks up! I do like that Gunn is a part of the cast now. But where's Kate?

[joelene]

The season premiere is pretty much a dud, yes, so don't feel dismayed by that because I think that's a popular opinion. Episode two is generally loved, while episode three and four you can find people on either side, really. Or they're considered middle of the road. It's not the strongest batch, although I really like Untouched but that has a lot to do with Lilah. I think that Angel has trouble with season beginnings in general (apart from one season which I think has the strongest premiere episode out of both Buffy and Angel). Let's just say that season 2 has some high highs and some not so highs, but the season really picks up in the near future. 

I really do love season 2 Cordy, but let's just say she goes through some... changes, over the course of the series. But you're articulating what you mean just fine! We all know what you mean, you can trust me on that. 

And Kate will be back soon!

[azshadowwalker]

On 10/31/2016 at 7:09 AM, ByTor said:

Unpopular as hell, but I enjoyed season 1, and then they had to go & muck it up with Darla, I hated hated HATED her.

I have a love-hate with Darla . There are episodes where she is acceptable , even good, but that breathy , little girl voice just grates . Her biggest plus is that she isn't Drusilla , whom I hated more than any other character . 

[ByTor]

Just now, azshadowwalker said:

I have a love-hate with Darla . There are episodes where she is acceptable , even good, but that breathy , little girl voice just grates . Her biggest plus is that she isn't Drusilla , whom I hated more than any other character . 

haha...I hated Drusilla too :)

[FurryFury]

On 31.10.2016 at 7:29 PM, peaceout said:

Also, I'm not sure but  I'm finding some of the writing for Cordy this season a little off as well. Almost, I don't know, not preachy but overtly mature or kind of, I don't know. Like I said I'm not doing a very good job articulating what I mean. I love that she's evolving but I just don't want her to become mother teresa either. She's always put aside her differences and whatever issues she may otherwise have to do the right thing and help, even in Buffy and that's one of the things I've loved about her ever since but some of her reactions and speeches in First Impressions and Untouched were a little too...noble sounding? 

Yeah, unfortunately, this is the direction they've decided to take Cordelia in. I'm... not a fan, to put it mildly. S1 Cordelia is my favorite Cordelia by far. And's going to get much worse in s3, sadly. 

 

18 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

I have a love-hate with Darla . There are episodes where she is acceptable , even good, but that breathy , little girl voice just grates . Her biggest plus is that she isn't Drusilla , whom I hated more than any other character . 

I don't mind her voice (and I don't mind Fred's either, and a lot of people dislike hers). And I love Dru. As for Darla's character, she... varies, let's just say. But overall, I think I like her too.

[peaceout]

Ok, so I'm up to Redefinition now and first off, to wade in the shallow side of the pool for a sec, Cordy's hair! Her gorgeous hair, sniff. I'll miss. I don't think this is a terribly flattering cut.

Ok, now on to the main stuff. My opinion of this season has gotten a lot better! First of all, Darla, the ep. Wow! Just, wow. I loved it just as much as I loved Fool For Love. In fact, they sort of seem like a single entity almost. I know I've said it before but I find Darla as a vampire the scariest out of all four, Angelus, her, Dru and Spike. There's just something completely in command and utterly vicious but in a controlled, almost magnetic manner that's very different from the kind of evil the other three exude. How I'd love to see more of their group dynamic, just fascinating stuff. Excellent ep. 

Drusilla siring Darla was quite a twist. I have to admit that I thoroughly enjoyed their scenes in Reunion together. Another great ep, I thought. There was this really almost palpable sense of tension created throughout the ep from the moment Darla took Drusilla from Wolfram and Hart. You just knew something was going to give, in a major way.

The Angel/Angelus thing is a bit confusing right now. I know Angel obviously hasn't lost his soul but he's certainly gone dark. I did not see it coming, him leaving the lawyers to all be killed off like that. I wonder if this will weigh on his conscience at some point but at this point it's pretty clear he gives zero fucks. I continue to really enjoy the Angel and Linsday dynamic in this sense also because somehow with Lindsay, Angel just makes no pretenses whatsoever.

But here's the thing now. I like this development with Angel. Shakes things up, makes it interesting. And I get that drinking Kate's blood probably has something to do with him going dark as well, in addition obviously to being played by Wolfram and Hart and the frustration of not being able to save Darla. But. I'm not sure if I buy it. Angel drank from Buffy, and woah was that...quite a drink. He didn't seem to have the same kind of dark bloodlust then, if I recall? And his frustration over Wolfram and Hart and Darla, again, all understandable, but enough to justify firing everyone, going after Darla and Drusilla in that bizarre way, etc? Maybe. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not really feeling it.

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Yeah, unfortunately, this is the direction they've decided to take Cordelia in. I'm... not a fan, to put it mildly. S1 Cordelia is my favorite Cordelia by far. And's going to get much worse in s3, sadly. 

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I really do love season 2 Cordy, but let's just say she goes through some... changes, over the course of the series. But you're articulating what you mean just fine! We all know what you mean, you can trust me on that. 

Funny thing though, I think post Untouched, the writing for Cordy is back to firing on all cylinders again. It's like, somehow her voice was not quite hers in those first four eps, but she's been everything Cordy that I love since then. I'm a bit worried about these changes now though! 

I am loving that Wes, Cordy and Gunn have decided to keep the business going. Loving their dynamic. Gunn has fitted in really well. And he's a smart guy, clearly not just the muscle. A real asset for their team. 

I like filling in little bits of info in my head with regards to Buffy, knowing that it must have been after Redefinition, that Drusilla would have headed over to Sunnydale.

I am curious to see where they go with Darla. 

[FurryFury]

5 hours ago, peaceout said:

But here's the thing now. I like this development with Angel. Shakes things up, makes it interesting. And I get that drinking Kate's blood probably has something to do with him going dark as well, in addition obviously to being played by Wolfram and Hart and the frustration of not being able to save Darla. But. I'm not sure if I buy it. Angel drank from Buffy, and woah was that...quite a drink. He didn't seem to have the same kind of dark bloodlust then, if I recall? And his frustration over Wolfram and Hart and Darla, again, all understandable, but enough to justify firing everyone, going after Darla and Drusilla in that bizarre way, etc? Maybe. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not really feeling it.

But it wasn't drinking blood that made Angel do that. It was despair. You could say it was something akin to real-life depression, in the way that BtVS always used supernatural metaphors to show IRL issues. Angel wasn't prepared to such a drastic turn in his life as becoming a hero, pracically a messianic figure, and his friends just didn't provide a stable and strong enough support structure for him initially (and they probably couldn't). Remember, Buffy struggled with her destiny as well, it just wasn't THAT hard for her.

And Angel, as he states later at one point (sorry, spoiler, but a minor enough you probably wouldn't mind) that he's far closer to Angelus the monster than Liam the human. Makes sense.

Edited November 6, 2016 by FurryFury

[peaceout]

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But it wasn't drinking blood that made Angel do that. It was despair. You could say it was something akin to real-life depression, in the way that BtVS always used supernatural metaphors to show IRL issues. Angel wasn't prepared to such a drastic turn in his life as becoming a hero, pracically a messianic figure, and his friends just didn't provide a stable and strong enough support structure for him initially

No, I definitely get that, you're right. I just felt it was all too quickly done. If this had been a season long arc maybe, where we really got to see the toll of the Wolfram and Hart's mindfucks in a more relentless, consistent way, and Angel and Darla rekindled an even deeper emotional bond, all the while with Angel being unable to turn to his friends, or simply them not knowing how to deal with this, then I could see this turn of events making a little bit more sense. But as it stands right now, everything went down within the space of 2-3 eps, literally. And the reason I mentioned the drinking from Kate part was that Angel did flash back to that moment a couple of times after it happened, so I'm assuming it was meant to be significant, in that regard. 

[Ailianna]

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Ok, so I'm up to Redefinition now and first off, to wade in the shallow side of the pool for a sec, Cordy's hair! Her gorgeous hair, sniff. I'll miss. I don't think this is a terribly flattering cut.

You're not the only one.  I love her long hair too, and I think so does Charisma, because after Angel she grew it long again, and it's still long and lovely.  I just saw her guesting on Elementary, and she was her normal, beautiful, long-haired self.  I've always thought Charisma should have her own show--I've followed her since, and she's been in a LOT of shows I already watch, but there's never enough of her for me.  

On to the show now.  I'm so happy to see someone exploring this show for the first time, and getting to read your thoughts.  I've not watched it in years, and you're bringing it all back to me.  Thanks for that! 

[peaceout]

I'm up till 'Dead End' now. There's a lot I've loved about this stretch of eps, but again,  with the shallow (I know, I'm horrible!), Cordy's hair...it just isn't getting any better. At all. The blonde highlights are particularly terrible.

On to more positive stuff, can I just say how much I am loving Wesley and Gunn? I am really enjoying them as characters in their own right as well as their new bond. The two actors have great chemistry. I am also absolutely loving Wolfram and Hart Scenes. I think one of the series's greatest strengths so far has been in creating this overarching villainous entity that just won't quit. Its endgame is a little vague right now but thankfully not in a frustrating way, at least not yet. But moreso in an enigmatic, can't-wait-to-see-what-they-pull-next way. 

Two eps really stood out to me in this stretch of eps, Reprise and Dead End. Absolutely loved both. Reprise was almost haunting in a way, particularly the end where we see Angel broken down and giving in to his worst instinct. Seeing Holland again was fun, but I'm curious as to what he was exactly. I know he said he was Holland, only dead but does that mean Wolfram and Hart own their souls?

Dead End was just terrific. I'm sad to see Lindsay go because I found his scenes, particularly with Lilah so fun, but if this was infact his last ep, it was just the way his character should go out. In a way, it made a lot of sense and for a supporting character, Lindsay was really developed quite nicely, with a lot of believable layers. Last season's Blind Date ep showed even someone as largely irredeemable as Lindsay has some moral boundaries and lines and this ep again reinforced that. Although I just as easily also believe Lindsy when he says he just got bored of this shit really, the one-upping on Angel, the mindgames, the competition with Lilah, frustration over his unrequited feelings for Darla. I can buy him wanting out because suddenly, the perks just aren't enough. He went out on his own terms and in that sense I found his advice to Angel very telling, 'don't play their game, make them play yours.' I have to assume this will be significant in someway, somewhere down the line because the way Lindsay got to know the inner workings of W&H, makes sense that he would say this. Also, that entire scene in the boardroom when Lindsay quits, with the whole 'evil hand' monologue, so, so fun! I will miss Lindsay. I will also miss how different Angel is around him than with anyone else, just incredibly petty almost, but in a very fun way.

I found the Kate scenes in this stretch of eps to be really powerful too. There's a lot of pathos to this character but a lot of quiet strength too. I can totally believe her world crashing in around her and her entire world view being challenged, and as a result, her life getting utterly messed up. I've always liked Angel and Kate scenes together. I like their chemistry and on a lot of levels, I wouldn't mind seeing them in some kind of a relationship. I think the way they end up opening up to each other, they can't quite seem to do with others in their lives at the moment. I don't know of course if the show will ever pursue Angel and Kate romantically, but I wouldn't mind if they did. I think I'd learn to appreciate it the way I did aspects of Buffy and Riley. They may not be all consuming, great, epic loves but they work their purpose for the period of our heroes lives they happen to be in. 

Oddly enough, I got a really thrill out of seeing Harmony again, lol. Good enough ep, I'm assuming taking place sometime after 'Crush' in Buffy. Harmony is so the sheep, and she really likely always will be, as Cordy herself pointed out in Bewitched, Bothered & Bewildered. She is just desperate to fit in. Loved seeing Willow again too, although I thought her and Cordy's convo was a little, off, a little over the top? I don't know. Wasn't the best written scene.

With Cordy, again, with parts of these eps, I'm not exactly sure where the show is going with her or if I like it. I almost wish she hadn't gotten these visions because they seem to be sucking the life out of her character. And then there's really melodramatic dialogue like Wesley telling Angel in 'Epiphany' how Cordy was such a solitary girl and so burdened by the visions and because of who she is she can't help but feel. It just smacks of ramming something over our heads, when there's no need. We don't need to be told Cordelia's amazing and selfless, because a lot of us already love and admire her from her Buffy days. I love Cordelia's loyalty, ability to put all personal issues aside for the greater good and her ability to tell it like it is but actually in her own way, meaning well. But the visions and the overall writing for her now just seems overly focused on reinforcing her goodness while taking away a lot of the bite she had that made her such a great character to begin with. I know characters have to evolve obviously, but I just don't want an unnecessarily mellowed out or constantly in martryed pain Cordelia. 

I am very glad to see Angel back in the fold with his people. That familial bond has been set up so well, that it actually seems like it could be comparable to any other family sit, where the older sibling screws up in a major way and then has to grovel his way back with the younger siblings. The actors really help sell this as well, like in the scene where Gunn is mocking Angel's epiphany in the car or when Wesley reminds Angel he was shot in the gut, or when Cordy refuses help from Angel, because 'you really hurt my feelings.' Or my personal fave, when Angel buys Cordy clothes and suddenly everything is A-OK. Lol! Because that is literally my brother down to a T. When all else failed when he pissed us off he would just resort to buying us something. Still does it to this day and we are both in our 30's, heh.

I am a little confused on the Darla front. First of all, I wonder if she's gone for good? I hope not because I enjoy the character. Secondly, so let me get this right. Angel after sleeping with Darla, had a moment of perfect despair, rather than happiness? So does this mean his soul was in danger of being eroded away, prior to sleeping with Darla One more thing. The actress who plays Anne, is she the same character from Buffy's season three opener? Because it's the same actress but I wasn't sure if we were meant to think if she was the same girl from that Buffy ep. 

[Dee]

"Angel bought me clothes!" will never not be hilarious.

[peaceout]

I was literally LOL-ing, I kid you not because I have been there. Great scene. 

[FurryFury]

Yeah, that was the same Anne. She was kinda forgettable, so I don't blame you for wondering.

Totally with you on Cordy as a character. And her hair. UGH.

Reprise is one of my favorite episodes of the show, and that existentialist speech of Angel's kills me every time, almost as much as some of the dialogue in "Becoming part 2" (they are probably the Buffyverse episodes containing my favorite speeches and exchanges, with Anya's monologue in "The Body" being right behind them).

As for Darla, nope, she's not gone for good. I won't spoil you about her, but don't worry.

Edited November 14, 2016 by FurryFury

[peaceout]

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Reprise is one of my favorite episodes of the show, and that existentialist speech of Angel's kills me every time, almost as much as some of the dialogue in "Becoming part 2" (they are probably the Buffyverse episodes containing my favorite speeches and exchanges, with Anya's monologue in "The Body" being right behind them).

So true. Great eps, all three, with those wonderful moments in them that you mention. Reprise really was a stunning look into Angel's psyche and delved so well into what he was feeling at that moment. 

I finished Season Two last night and, wow. These last few eps were...not good. Very little of the entire Pylia arc actually worked for me. It just seemed to be a different show altogether, and worse, with different characters. And I'm not talking about the Pylia folks, but mostly our characters. I thought the writing for Angel, Cordelia and even Wesley in certain parts was awful. Angel's overly giddy persona just wore on my nerves after a bit to be honest while Cordelia's waffling about i wanna go, i wanna stay, not to mention her sudden love for the Grussalug got pretty annoying, pretty fast, too.  Cordy's nothing, if not smart in her observations. She didn't see the whole thing as a ruse? I get that the princess thing was meant to come off as cute but to me it just seemed desperate. And Wesley's sudden dramatic turn as the uncompromising leader felt a bit tacked on as well. I think he had been growing into a more leadership role just fine as it is without the help of these eps. But the worst part about this stretch of eps was that I found them to be boring. Literally, during entire scenes, like the Angel and Winefred (Fred?) ones, I kept looking at the time. 

The show seems to have shifted tonally post Belonging and that carried through till the season finale. The biggest tonal shift, in my eyes, seems to be this attempt to write Angel as feeling romantically for Cordy, which is just the antithesis of their sibling like dynamic that had been set up since as recent as the last ep I saw before Belonging. I get the need to have romantic interests for both these characters, in fact, I'm all for it. But each other? I'm having an extremely negative reaction, if indeed the show is going in an Angel and Cordy romantic direction. Also, this probably means I won't be seeing  any Angel/Kate pairing that I was hoping to. 

Having said this, Cordy and the Grussalug have no chemistry whatsoever either. I hope he stays in Pylia.

The ending of the final ep, with Willow was such a stark reminder of the hell that went down over on Buffy this season. Interesting choice though to have Angel's season finale end with nothing to do with Angel, the show. But of course, very much to do with Angel the character.

It also got me thinking, at what point in Angel's season 2 did Angel go to Sunnydale? I remember him guesting on Buffy's 'Forever' ep, one of my favourite Buffy and Angel moments. I'm curious about the timeline though as I don't think him going to Sunnydale was mentioned in any of the eps here, or was it?

Season Two was a bit of a mixed bag, although a mixed bag with a lot of really great highs. So there's that. Hope Season Three fares more consistently!

[FurryFury]

15 hours ago, peaceout said:

The show seems to have shifted tonally post Belonging and that carried through till the season finale. The biggest tonal shift, in my eyes, seems to be this attempt to write Angel as feeling romantically for Cordy, which is just the antithesis of their sibling like dynamic that had been set up since as recent as the last ep I saw before Belonging.

Absolutely. I always felt like making Angel/Cordy into an epic romance was an ass pull influenced by Kate's actress leaving (I was convinced she was set up to become Angel's next LI) and Doyle's actor, well, you know. Never bought it.

As for Pylea, well, there were two reasons why it happened the way it happened. AFAIK, there was supposed to be a huge epic season finale tying up some loose ends with Darla, Drusilla, Wolfram and Hart, etc. But some of the actors were unavailable, so the TPTB had to scrap it. Second, they needed to get Angel and the gang away so they couldn't interfere with the events in Sunnydale (the fight against Glory when Buffy dies). Thus, Pylea. I also didn't care for it AT ALL when I saw it first, but it fared surprisingly better on the rewatch. It's actually quite fun when you know what to expect. Plus, amazing foreshadowing regarding a certain character. I never became a fan of Fred until s5, but I grew to appreciate more Lorne, plus, well, this was the first time I've seen Amy Acker (love her A LOT... but not that much as Fred, with some caveats), so I'm a bit nostalgic.

Edited November 16, 2016 by FurryFury

[peaceout]

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Angel/Cordy into an epic romance

Epic? Uh-oh. I am clearly not going to like this. Season 3 suddenly looks a lot less appealing and I haven't even begun watching...  :(

[buffynut]

As with your Buffy comments, I'm enjoying reading your Angel ones. I only watched each Angel episode once, so your reviews are reminding me of what happened. And already I'm remembering not being thrilled with a lot of it. Including the Pylea arc.  I don't remember when I stopped watching, but the fact that my memories already are less than positive ones, I'm not sure if I made it through the 3rd season.

I will keep reading your posts until I come to ones with story-lines I don't remember, and then I'll have to stop reading, in case I ever decide to watch the show again.

[FurryFury]

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

keep in mind that the last part of her journey on the show is really beautiful and makes up for some things that might not have been so great.

That's true. But there are some tough times ahead before that, unfortunately. Very tough for me, personally (I don't like s3 mostly because of Cordy's development - but it's pretty great otherwise, and features the beginning of my favorite character development arc in Buffyverse and probably all of TV, ever.)

As for Cordy/Angel, well, I'm sorry for kinda spoiling you, but it's not THAT big of a deal to stop watching, trust me. I also feel like the latter half of Angel, s5 (and parts of 4) especially, are overall stronger than the first one. There's lots of great stuff to come! I think I only truly became engaged with the show in the middle of s4. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by FurryFury

[peaceout]

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I hated the Pylea arc. I think it would have been fun for maybe one episode, but since it was essentially four episodes, it was way too much. However, at least we got Fred out of it, who I love. Because Amy Acker's been utterly brilliant in everything that she's been in. And yes, I loved her as Fred too. I think Angel as a show improved a lot once they extended the ensemble and included Gunn and Fred in the main cast. I just think the show benefited from being an ensemble show where it could draw rich material from character interaction.

It was just one too many eps in Pylea. I mean, enough already. And most of it was so very boring, that's what made it even worse. I don't really have an opinion on Fred so far except that so far at least I've sort of zoned out during her scenes with Angel, which seemed to go on forever. I did enjoy Amy Acker in Dollhouse, so I'm hoping I will warm up to Fred. Now, Gunn, I just love. At this point, I think he's my favourite character probably, followed very closely by Wesley.

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For a season that was, especially in the first half, so immensely focused on Darla, it felt somewhat disjointed to end with something else entirely.

It really did. And for someone like myself that thoroughly ended up enjoying the Darla ac, Drusilla, W&H and all, the season just ended so very anticlimactically. 

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I don't even remember that a romantic Cordy/Angel relationship was already set up in Pylea. I would have preferred Angel/Kate too. Kate was such a great character, but I think a Kate/Angel pairing was abandoned due to the actress getting a series regular role on Law & Order and since Kate was despised by most of the fan base, as few Buffyverse fans were ready for Buffy and Angel to date other people at the time.

I think I began seeing hints towards Angel and Cordy from the ep, 'Belonging' onwards up until the season finale. And literally, out of nowhere, abrupt hints. Just small stuff like Angel being mistaken for Cordy's boyfriend, Angel's overt desperation to find Cordy after she went through the portal in contrast to Wesley's more muted response initially. Which, I HATED, because it really seemed to diminish Wesley and Cordy's relationship at the altar of Angel's sudden, I don't know, 'feelings?' Then there were lines like 'I just got her back' that seemed to have more of a romantic touch than just friendlike. And then of course, Angel's reaction when Cordy ridiculously declared she loved Grussalug. He actually liked the thought that she could have been declaring her love for him. Again, preposterous writing for both the characters. See, thing is, I ended up absolutely loving Buffy and Angel together after my viewing of Buffy. But. And because it's so fresh in memory since I recently watched, I genuinely did warm up to Buffy and Riley. To the point where I was actively rooting for her to catch him before he left with the Initiative and felt nostalgic when he returned in 'As You Were.' God help me, I even enjoyed the Buffy and Spike scenes in Season 5. And here on Angel, I actually enjoyed a lot of the Angel and Darla dynamic and wanted to see version of Angel and Kate together. None of this stops me from from appreciating Buffy and Angel or still firmly believing in them as my end game, but you need some romantic angle for the leads , I get that. But the reason I'm having such an averse reaction to Angel and Cordy is that (in my opinion anyway) the show has gone out of its way to establish a familial bond between the two, right from day one. To suddenly have this romantic angle thrown in seems not only ridiculous but a real disservice to a dynamic that was a refreshing change of pace, sans romance. Maybe they might have chemistry once the tone of their scenes shifts further. I guess I'll stay open to the idea. 

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As for Cordy/Angel, well, I'm sorry for kinda spoiling you, but it's not THAT big of a deal to stop watching, trust me.

No, no. Please don't be sorry. I've rarely stopped watching or started watching a show because of the romantic relationships in them. So I will definitely stick this out. :)

[GreenScreenFX]

If you stop watching... that won't be the reason why.

[Dee]

I love the Angel/Cordy/Gunn/Wes foursome, they felt like a tight knit little family.

Once Fred and Lorne showed up, and everything quickly went to hell plot-wise, it just felt like overkill

[peaceout]

Season 3 has been interesting so far. I'm up to 'Quickening.' The thing I find pretty fascinating about this season is that so far at least, I can't decide how I really feel about it. With literally almost every ep so far I've simultaneously loved and hated certain parts.

To start with the good though, I did not see that Holtz twist coming and I have to say, I like it. I never imagined a character only referenced last season would come into play in such a major way this season but it opens up so many intriguing questions. What is the endgame here? Surely the demon who brought Holtz back, has some agenda here too? Not to mention, now that W&H are in the loop, could they and Holtz become allies? Plus as a villain, Holtz already has a deep history with Angel and Darla, so I can already feel the tension. Good casting here as well. 

I love Darla. So glad she's back. Never expected her to be pregnant obviously, and a part of me wonders if we really need a baby on the show, especially if sufficient enough reason is never provided for how two vampires were able to conceive. But having said that, I appreciate Julie Benz's Darla portrayal so very much, it's just a treat to have her back. She brings so much to the table as Darla, I feel, and honestly, there have been parts of 'Offspring' and 'Quickening' where I have actually found myself rooting for Angel and Darla to raise their baby...in a 'those two crazy kids, dammit' way, lol. I've always thought David Boreanaz and Julie Benz had terrific chemistry and they have really been working magic in their scenes this season. 

I miss Lindsay a lot but Lilah has really stepped up her game in his absence and I like it! She is evolving into a formidable foe. I continue to absolutely love W&H scenes, actively looking forward to them, even.

I loved the twist that we got with Fred's parents, that hey, for a change, they were just normal and loved their daughter, unconditionally. There was this tiny little moment in 'Fredless' that I think Charisma Carpenter sold so well, when Cordy's hugging Fred and wistfully tells her she's jealous. I also loved how Fred saved the day there. It makes me realize she can be a valuable member of this group.

I think, on the whole, Billy was an incredibly strong ep. That was a very, very legitimately creepy villain and premise and Alexis Denisof really knocked it out of the park. I was seriously fearing Wesley. I also appreciated that they made Lilah's brief 'switch' to the other side here, so to speak different that how it was with Lindsay. While with Lindsay it was more about how a largely irredeemable person like him can have some moral no-go zones, with Lilah, it was more this mix of self motivation, where it was obviously vengeance on one level but also just a realization that if this guy stays alive, she's going to have to keep cleaning his messes over and over. Lilah is nothing if not ambitious, and I think she realized that in this case, Billy meant more loss than gain. I also thought 'Billy' was a great ep for Cordy, not only in terms of character development but Charisma was excellent. 

Now, on to stuff I haven't quite liked, or in some cases, flat out hated. So they seem to be setting up a Wesley and Fred pairing but I just don't see the chemistry there. If anything, I actually see some chemistry there with Gunn and Fred. Not sure if the show might steer in that direction but I like the scenes the two characters have shared so far. They have this lovely, natural rapport and clearly seem at ease with one another. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, hate Cordy's visions. Honestly wish she had never gotten them. Although I liked a lot of 'That Vision Thing' but it strikes me as so obvious now that it is so incredibly dumb how no-one is addressing the issue of Cordy's pain with visions getting progressively worse. Doyle was half demon and he used to get a bad pain hangover. Cordy's all human, naturally this is taking a toll on her. I have a really bad, sinking feeling about where they might go with this and I'm so afraid for it that I don't even want to type it, lol. 

I'm trying honestly, really hard to get behind Angel and Cordelia romantically, but I am having such a tough time. It's bad enough that I think they almost have anti-chemistry when it comes to non platonic tone scenes, but what's worse is the writing for these kind of scenes. I find it SO forced, this overly cutesy tone, with the overly big smiles and the grating cheerfulness with training and trying to create a 'moment.' I feel they are literally being forced down my throat as a potential couple by actually having third party characters like Fred try and build them up. I can't tell you how annoyed I was by her 'kyrumsion' and 'moyra' and what not nonsense, it just smacked of trying to sell me on something I'm not buying. Not to mention how bizarre. 'Two heroes meeting in battle and recognizing each other'.... 'the gut instinct of feeling for the other person'...I mean, really? We are talking about Angel and Cordelia here. I think if the show really wanted to go the Angel/Cordy way, a more subtle approach would have worked far better, something similar almost to the conversation Cordy and Wes had in 'Billy.' Basically, like an acknowledgment that they do live in a crazy, dysfunctional environment, and if they decide to take comfort in each other, it wouldn't be so wildly out of turn. But this approach, this 'oh, others can see how perfect you are for each other, only you can't' crap really isn't working for me. And don't even get me started on things like Angel jumping up and down gleefully to have his stab wounds checked out. That kinda thing. Ugh.

I also thought the writing for Cordy was really off in her initial reaction to Darla. What was that?! I was almost like, good, she got bit a little, at least now she'll drop the florence nightingale plus wronged woman thing she had going on there.

I think everything to do with Buffy's death and then return could have been handled better. I didn't care for the ridiculous, 'we try not to say the B word' nonsense, nor did I laugh (ok, not too much) at the Cordy/Wes re-enactment. I also felt the entire ep of 'Heartthrob' was set up just so that it could be rammed over our heads how 'over' Buffy, Angel is now. Except that I've just recently seen 'Chosen' and remember Angel and Buffy's scenes, and I can't quite help thinking this is being done to escalate Angel and Cordy. Which I find so bizarre, because one relationship history needn't be sacrificed at the altar of another burgeoning one. 

I haven't really warmed up to Gavin yet. With Linsday and Lilah, what made them so much fun was that underneath their overt loathing and constantly trying to get a one-up on the other, you actually felt a part of them respected the other, maybe even fond of the other on some level. But with Gavin and Lilah, there's just flat out disdain. 

Anyway. All said and done, looking forward to the rest of the season. God help me, but I'm actually quite invested in this baby plot, lol. 

[peaceout]

I watched Lullaby last night. What an amazing ep. One of my favourites of both the series, I think. As sad as I am to see Darla go, it was time. And what an arc! I feel like I truly got to know Darla, and Julie Benz was always so good in bringing Darla to such life. But I feel a real sense of loss, not having Darla or Darla and Angel scenes anymore. I loved everything about where the show took Darla's character in this ep, and Julie Benz just knocked it out of the park in every scene. Although props to David Boreanaz too because in so many scenes, especially the last one, he was just reacting and yet he made you feel for him so completely. Brilliant.

And Holtz! He is going to be one helluva character. The bad guy you ca't help but feel for yet can't help but hate either. He is hardcore about showing Angel no mercy. This is not going to end well. 

I think it's an interesting twist to have had the scroll land up in W&H's hands. I grow to love watching Lilah more and more in every ep. This show would so much the lesser without her in it.

Fantastic ep. I honestly can't fault it. Really got to me, emotionally. 

[peaceout]

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This will be addressed. Just hang in there.

I quite liked Birthday, the concept of it. Alternate reality eps are always fun. I'm not sure I buy the justification they had for Angel going mad, but the rest was OK. And part demon. Whoa. Well, can't say that doesn't solve the vision issue. Seems to have been done in an awfully throw away manner right now but I'm sure there will be more development on this at some point.

I've seen up till 'Loyalty' now. Not the best stretch of eps for me, to be honest. After the high of the Darla mini arc, everything seems to be falling flat.  Plus, as much as I have tried, I cannot get behind the Angel-Cordy forced romance, that seems to be being shoved down my throat, one ridiculous 'you two are meant to be each with other' and 'kyrumpstion' mention at a time. And now it's a frikkin triangle. I thought I'd seen the last of Gru but no, here he is again, clearly setting himself up as fodder to be sacrificed for that moment where Cordy too will magically out of nowhere realize that she loves Angel. 

I'm not sure I like the writing for Cordy being this oblivious to Angel's feelings for her. Cordy has mostly always been really smart and intuitive about these kind of things. Then there's again things like Lorne having to spell out Cordy's development with stuff like 'look at how much she's grown' instead of just letting us naturally see and know that. Just feels so very, forced, again for the lack of another, better word. And in 'Provider' as much as Angel was being over the top with the whole money thing, Cordy's saintly 'the mission is the only thing that matters' was getting on my nerves too. Which is why I was so glad at the end when she went back to Cordy at her best and said to take the money because they earned it. 

Speaking of that ep, Provider', my god. What a painfully boring ep. Hardly any redeeming features at all. I liked 'Dad' well enough though. But obviously 'Loyalty' is the big one here in terms of what I'm assuming is going to be the direction for the rest of the season. At this point, to be honest, I just want to smack Wesley for not even attempting to tell Angel. Share this big honking prophecy with him, for effs sake, after all, it involves Angel and his son. And with Wes being so weird about Fred and Gunn together, he's just isolating himself dangerously away from the group, I think. And now Cordy's off with Gru as well, I have a really bad feeling about this. So frustrating to see the way things are playing out right now, because it seems fairly obvious that Wes is being played. Especially with Sajhan and Lilah now in cahoots as well.

Holtz has turned out to be a bit of a disappointment. His scenes are starting to drag to be honest.

 One of the saving graces for me anyway, for these past few eps has been Fred and Gunn. I am absolutely loving them so far, and really rooting for them. Which obviously means they will be shortlived as a couple, knowing my track record of couples I ship. Lol.

[netlyon2]

On 11/30/2016 at 0:46 AM, peaceout said:

 One of the saving graces for me anyway, for these past few eps has been Fred and Gunn. I am absolutely loving them so far, and really rooting for them. Which obviously means they will be shortlived as a couple, knowing my track record of couples I ship. Lol.

I'm really enjoying your commentary; it makes me want to fire up my DVDs/Netflix!  It's nice to see someone else who enjoys Fred and Gunn together, as well.  I remember really despising Wesley's mooning about since Fred showed up; of course, it's turned up to 11 during this arc.  I can never not love "Loyalty," however, since it's got Darth Burger--my third-most giggle-inducing moment of the show.  (The second-most being the rando dancing from "She" and my top being almost any moment from a certain episode in Season 5.)

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the rest of Season 3!

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Okay, yes, I just went and watched the Loa scene again.  STILL hilarious!

[amensisterfriend]

Oh, fun, a new convert!!! Welcome, peaceout! 

I maintain that season one is one of my favourite seasons of anything ever.

Me too!!! At this stage it's probably my all time favorite Whedon season of anything ever (that includes all of BtVS, Firefly etc) and one of my favorite seasons of any TV show in general. A lot of the online fans I know tend to view S1 as the worst season of AtS, but it's just sheer TV bliss for me. As someone who tends not to love Whedon's longer and denser "arcs" as much (I do in theory, but in practice I nearly always prefer standalones!), I have mixed feelings about the more arc-heavy S2-S4 and just find this first season has so many individual episodes that I can watch over and over without tiring of them. I actually love Cordelia this season: she clearly grows and evolves from her time on BTVS but is still so uniquely, recognizably Cordy to me (I can't always say the same as the series progresses!) I love both Doyle and S1 Wesley and their dynamics with both Angel and Cordelia so much. I agree that Doyle and Wesley have very different personalities and energies, but they both add a lot in their own ways.  (One unpopular opinion is that I far prefer S1/S2 Wesley to what we see later on in the series, but I don't want to spoil our new viewer by getting into specifics!) I get both sides of the Kate debate. I ultimately like her blend of toughness and vulnerability and how she adds a very different female energy from Cordelia, but she can definitely be challenging to like sometimes :)

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I loved City Of.

Still one of my favorite pilots of any series and maybe one of my most beloved and rewatched AtS episodes, though I say that about A LOT of episodes :)

I think so far I've enjoyed City Of, In the Dark, Room With A View, Sense & Sensitivity, The Bachelor Party and I Will Remember You the most.

I love these too, though I definitely have to be in a certain angst-craving mood to enjoy I Will Remember You :) Did you like the S1 finale? It's one of my very favorite episodes of the series, maybe even my VERY favorite.

I'm guessing by your comments that overall you preferred S1 to S2...? I can't wait to see how you end up feeling about S3! (...and S4 and S5, of course!)

[peaceout]

I finished Season 3 last night. I have very mixed feelings. There is a lot I loved about it. But a lot that I didn't love either. I've already gone over the stuff I liked and didn't care for up to this point so I'll just look at this last stretch of the season now. In terms of things that I continue to love, Lilah. She has become such an integral part of my pull towards this show. She could be so incredibly one note evil femme fatale so easily, but there is so much more one gets with her. She's decidedly unapologetic about her actions and yet she exists in a world where she must constantly evaluate her own lines of loyalty, ambition and morality by looking out for her pure survival, more than anything else. And what makes all of this so great is that punch and  chutzpah she brings to the character on the whole. Love her. I saw her and Wesley together the minute they started sharing more scenes and I have to say, really enjoying their chemistry. I think my favourite exchange was when they're in bed and Lilah tells him to stop shooting her the dirty looks because that's what 'got her going' in the first place and then later not to think of her when she's gone to which Wesley, completely dead pan says, 'wasn't thinking of you even when you were here.' That about sums it up! I'm utterly intrigued by the idea of the two of them together but weary because surely something will have to give. 

I am also still really loving Fred and Gunn. They have this real grounded appeal about them as a couple that I love. Please, please let them survive the cursed death knell of relationships though I'm not holding out hope. 

Vincent Kartheiser is doing a great job as Connor and I could truly feel his pain and angst and it's completely understandable to see how fucked up his life has been and that its played a role in shaping who he's become. I am really looking forward to seeing how this dynamic plays out.

Oddly, one element that I was completely hating on prior to to this last stretch of eps was Gru. And what do you know, the guy really grew (no pun of course) on me in these last few eps. I think his awareness of the Cordy Angel thing brought the funny in him as well as managing to elicit sympathy for him. I actually really started to enjoy his integration into the team. 

Now, for things that either fell totally flat or I flat out hated. Cordy's hair is right at the top of that list! But I'll move on... lol. But seriously. WTF?! So Cordy is now where exactly? Higher purpose? And again talk about the total lack of subtlety what with that ridiculous glowing and the white angelic dress. I'll admit. None of that made sense to me. What the hell just happened? And I just can't wrap my head around the fact that Cordy of all people wouldn't put up a fight to at least tell everyone first about what was going on. And I was right about her suddenly magically realizing she had feelings for Angel too. The whole thing is such a contrived mess in my opinion. I'm honestly trying to get on board because clearly the show is trying desperately to sell me the supposed epicness of their love but all the while I'm here just utterly bored and/or annoyed. And they literally have the romantic anti-chemistry, if that's a word.

Wesley Wesley Wesley. I still think he was completely in the wrong not to tell Angel about the prophecy. I think his plan was incredibly stupid and ill concieved. He ended up isolating himself from everyone and is now blaming the others for not having his back. But they did. Angel trusted him literally with his child. Gunn stood up for him and championed him for as long as he realistically could. Fred was still open to the idea of keeping communication with him right till the end. Cordy's was the only reaction I found a little weird to be honest in that she didn't even try to talk to Wesley. Hate him all you want, but this is Wes and Cordy. I find it incomprehensible that she wouldn't have gone over to him if for nothing else than to give him a piece of her mind. The total cut off from her end was bizarre. But the others I can't blame. At the same time I'm so mad about the whole thing in general because I  love Wes. I'm torn.

Holtz, after an awesome build up, generally fell flat for me. His final act of revenge was chilling, no doubt, but he just sort of, was there, otherwise. Ultimately failing to resonate as a character the way I thought he would.

So onwards to season 4 now. Please be more consistent(ly good!) 

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I remember really despising Wesley's mooning about since Fred showed up; of course, it's turned up to 11 during this arc.

Hate the mooning. Reeks of self entitlement. 

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I'm guessing by your comments that overall you preferred S1 to S2...? I can't wait to see how you end up feeling about S3! (...and S4 and S5, of course!)

Season one is still my favourite so far. As far as Seasons two and three are concerned, they don't feel like cohesive wholes so I guess there are certain arcs of stretches of eps in both seasons that I both loved and hated. 

[peaceout]

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I think season four is probably the most consistent season, very playful and creative. There are a lot of good ideas put into it and there is so much narrative put in every episode that there is no filler material. That being said, season four is the most divisive season of the entire show, you either love or hate it. There are a lot of developments that are kind of icky and it's one hell of a downer of a season, but the scale of things is just so big, I really loved it.

Hope to start the season tonight!

Another thing I forgot to mention earlier. How come more wasn't made of Angel's curse when pushing Cordy and Angel so hard as an epic luv? Or was it and I just missed it? Because shouldn't this be a thing? How would this relationship be functional without sex? And if they can have sex then how does the curse not get activated? I'm so fuzzy on the semantics of this 'true happiness in sex leads to loss of soul' thing. Always have been!

[Dee]

I hated every minute of Gunn & Fred.

Mainly because they destroyed the epic bromance that was Gunn/Wes, but also because Amy Acker is yet another entrant into the Buffyverse's long line of Annoying Manic Pixie Dream Girls.

[ByTor]

20 minutes ago, Dee said:

I hated every minute of Gunn & Fred.

Mainly because they destroyed the epic bromance that was Gunn/Wes, but also because Amy Acker is yet another entrant into the Buffyverse's long line of Annoying Manic Pixie Dream Girls.

It can't be said enough how much I hated those two together, but my problem had more to do with how much I loathed Fred, the most perfect perfection that ever perfected...yuck :(

Edited December 6, 2016 by ByTor

[amensisterfriend]

The above two posts are so validating for me :) I tried really, really hard to like Fred, and had almost convinced myself to during my last rewatch. I love introverted 'geeks', so she should be my favorite, but she's so painfully cutesy, precious, self-consciously 'adorable' and has that wide-eyed, artificially childlike, "gosh golly, ME? you all think I'm this super special?!" schtick that Whedon tends to resort to with one of his female characters per series. I know the term Mary Sue is grossly overused, but Fred is the quintessential example of one to me. Add in the fact that I'm allergic to Amy Acker---that voice, her line deliveries, did I mention that VOICE----and Fred's absence is one of many reasons why S1 is my favorite. I actually wish neither Gunn nor Wesley had fallen for her, but that's probably better off in the UO thread. 

I'm torn about Cordy-Angel---in many ways I see them as a much better, happier match than the angst-drenched Buffy/Angel were, but I also often find myself agreeing that the sudden romantic feelings between them felt a little forced and that they're more naturally suited as friends. In many ways I would have preferred Cordelia with Doyle or (*whispers*) Wesley. I have dreadful taste. :) 

I'm so curious what you'll think of S4, peaceout! As others have said, it tends to be a VERY polarizing season :) It's my personal least favorite, but that's probably because I'm just not as big a fan of Whedon's darker, more heavily serialized storytelling in general. I think my personal season order would currently go S1, S5, S2, S3 and S4, but again, it varies a lot depending on my mood. If I'm in the mood for Wes/Cordy/Gunn bonding and not feeling like I can deal with a heavy dose of Fred, I might prefer S2 to S5 despite my misgivings about the lengthy Darla stuff and Angel's estrangement from the group. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[ByTor]

The weird thing is, even though Pylea gave us the dreadful Fred, that was my favorite arc of the whole series.

[amensisterfriend]

The weird thing is, even though Pylea gave us the dreadful Fred, that was my favorite arc of the whole series.

Now I want to know which 10-15 episodes are people's go to favorites! The Pylea arc is endlessly rewatchable for me :) When we first met Fred in Pylea, I hoped maybe based on the trauma she suffered and the way she was introduced that she'd be a character with legitimate long-term emotional and psychological issues, which could have made for some interesting, relatable (to me!) and touching TV. Outside of maybe her shrub talking in S3 and that one 'see, look, Fred can be an angry badass too!' episode in S4 (trying to avoid details here for obvious reasons), she was just presented as cutely quirky and almost sickeningly 'adorable.'