Gargoyles - General Discussion

[Lisin]

Gargoyles discussion goes here. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Yay! Finally! I've been on tenterhooks waiting for the Master to add this!

 

As many of y'all know, back on the other board, Season Two/Part Two was priced at some obscene $79.99! Well, just last week, I saw that the Disney Store is selling it for $19.95. and Amazon for $37.75! Cripes! It was $27.75 last week! I know where I'll be getting mine!

 

I'm so not interested in the last season. Will post there in detail.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Hated this season. Will not get it. They messed with animation; it looked cheaper, and worse, made Goliath in human form all steroided out looking and FUGLY.

 

I preferred his look in Season 1's "The Mirror." So hot, so yummy...so...

 

Ahem.

 

This last season just seemed a cheap rip-off of X-Men and that stupid society wanting to rid all humanity of Gargoyles, like the bigots wanting to rid all humanity of Mutants. Blah.

Edited July 28, 2014 by GHScorpiosRule

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'll have more later...because I'm SO doing a rewatch of this, but this one popped right into me head:

 

"Humanity is our enemy, Goliath."

 

It's all Demona's fault their clan was decimated. *sniff*

Edited July 28, 2014 by GHScorpiosRule

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh I loved this show when it premiered! Loved this take of Beauty and the Beast. I'd never heard of the word "ship" and not sure if it existed back then, but I shipped Goliath and Elisa So, so HARD!

 

And how interesting/kewl that most of the voice cast was from Star Trek: The Next Generation?

 

Will have more cohesive and coherent thoughts later!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Look, I suck at witty titles, okay? Plus, I couldn't come up with one to say how uberly hawt I found this beast.  And once he awoke and realized 1,000 years had gone by and they were no longer in Scotland, but in New York, Manhattan, to be precise, that island became his protectorate, and his to look over and well, protect.

 

Loved him. Loved his seething anger, his love for his clan, respect for Hudson, belief in Brooklyn...

 

And as a youngin', squeed at his attraction, mutual, for Elisa. His belief that if shown the past that that witch Demona could change and his disappointment that he couldn't.

 

And he wasn't perfect. His blindness at getting the Castle back...fighting Xanatos...trying to acclimate to the new and modern world...made him my favorite.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Loved John Rhys Davies as MacBeth.  What I liked was at first, we thought he was a villain, but when he got his history, he was really, a hero...but betrayed by Demona, that shebeast, he sort of slipped to the, well Dark Side.

 

And how he couldn't tell it was Demona he'd fallen in love with...GAH.

[AntiBeeSpray]

Dang. That's insane. 

 

Disney at least has a good price on it.

 

Saw the first one over at Wal-Mart... want to get it too. I miss this show like mad :(.

 

Edit: Just picked up the first season and part one of the second from Wal-Mart! :) Can't wait to start the re watch.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Just finished bingewatching the entire series after getting the last part of season two, and it really holds up very well. Well, except for the third season, which I don't have and which is boring as all get out.  I'm still shocked and amazed that this was a children's cartoon aired in the afternoon!

 

That said, this thing's been bugging me about the Hunters and I don't know if it was an intentional goof, with Paur and Weisman hoping we wouldn't notice, which is stupid, based on the kind of following this show has, or if they didn't care.  Thing is, the original hunter was Gillecomgain, who died in City of Stone, and died childless.  And it was in this arc, we saw that King Duncan stole his hunter's mask and used it to kill Demona and her clan. And it was his son, who continued to kill gargoyles and the vendetta carried through the generations. It's why I roll my eyes, no, that I have no sympathy, because Demona didn't kill their ancestor, but, the Kanmore line was evil anyway. Well Duncan was, and his poor son...no one to show him the truth.

 

So really, that's the only nit I have, because the "demon" didn't kill the Kanmore's ancestor.

 

I really loved how they ended the series...oh my oh my...Elisa's attraction to Jason...that look they shared in the car...that kiss...Goliath's look of hurt...shock, Elisa pulling away, telling Jason that there was someone else but that it would be impossible for them to be together...that look on Goliath's face, which makes me think he heard her. Then, at the end...

 

Elisa: "You know how I feel about you, right?"

 

Goliath: (running his fingers through her hair) "How we both feel, yes..."

 

Elisa: "Good." Jumps up, kisses Goliath (me: SIGHHHHHHHH and SQUEEEE!!! [shutup. don't judge me!]) "Welcome Home, Goliath...welcome home."

 

Goliath turns to stone with a bigass grin/smile on his face....

[DisneyBoy]

Definitely a great ending to the series (at least, that's how I view it, in light of the lack of a cohesive continuation).

 

Did you read the Slave Labor Graphics continuation of the series, as written by Greg?  The sporadic release date and questionable art in places turned me off, but I'd be curious as to how it continues things.  I heard that apparently Elisa dates Morgan the cop briefly, which makes no sense to me at all....

 

Season Two was really daring.  I loved the Avalon stuff and flashbacks and the Archmage (David Warner!!), but the World Tour was a bit exhausting back in the day.  I remember thinking I didn't appreciate having so much dry cultural history inserted into the series, but now that I'm older, I appreciate the lengths they went to to ensure the show had content.

 

Angela was a great addition to the cast too.

 

And the Gathering was great stuff.  Never saw the big reveals there coming, not by a long shot...

[DisneyBoy]

I wonder if they'll ever release a "Complete Series" set, with proper commentaries and bonus features for Season Two Part Two like they had for the earlier episodes.  They would obviously include Goliath Chronicles in there, but I doubt I'd watch those through.

 

I also wish there was an affordable way to read through the full Slave Labor Graphics continuation of the series.  I've been the Trade Paperbacks on Ebay and they are not cheap.  Probably because the last issues never made it to the newsstands.

[AntiBeeSpray]

Just picked up the rest of season two from Wal-Mart. They just got them in from the looks of things.

[DisneyBoy]

Yup.  Paid 10 bucks for mine!

 

Some amazing episodes here.  A shame Greg wasn't invited back to do more commentaries....

 

And boy was the World Tour LOOOONG!

[Arcadiasw]

 

 

I really loved how they ended the series...oh my oh my...Elisa's attraction to Jason...that look they shared in the car...that kiss...Goliath's look of hurt...shock, Elisa pulling away, telling Jason that there was someone else but that it would be impossible for them to be together...that look on Goliath's face, which makes me think he heard her. Then, at the end...

 

Elisa: "You know how I feel about you, right?"

 

Goliath: (running his fingers through her hair) "How we both feel, yes..."

 

Elisa: "Good." Jumps up, kisses Goliath (me: SIGHHHHHHHH and SQUEEEE!!! [shutup. don't judge me!]) "Welcome Home, Goliath...welcome home."

 

Goliath turns to stone with a bigass grin/smile on his face....

 

 

No judging. I'm with you. I was a pre-teen when I saw this in 1996. I was so invested in Goliath and Elisa. I was so pissed with Elisa in Part 2 of Hunter's Moon. LOL! Then the kiss happened and I loved her again. LOL! It's unfortunate the series couldn't really continue like it should've. Kids today are so unfortunate to not have the cartoons we had growing up.

[Arcadiasw]

One of my favorite animated series of all times!! I have so many fond memories for this show. I actually watched this with my Mom back in the day. "Awakening" had re-aired on TV and my mother was cooking dinner when she heard Xanatos say "Hell." Naturally, she became concerned since she never heard cursing on a cartoon before. So she sat with me asking questions about the show and she was blown when Goliath woke up for the first time. LOL! I had already taped the five part episode  so after dinner, we watched "Awakening" and she enjoyed it. 

 

Besides this being a show I watched with my Mom, it's also opened my world to Shakespeare. I spent a lot of my summer of 1996 reading Shakespeare. When I had to study Romeo and Juliet, MacBeth and Julius Caesar in High School, I had a head start on everyone. Wishbone also got me reading a lot of books, too.

[Arcadiasw]

"Deadly Force" is one my favorite episodes from Season One. I think it was such a disservice for The Disney Channel to not air that episode. The hospital scene with Goliath and Elisa was the first time I noticed a possible romance between the two. I thought Goliath liked Elisa first but after watching "The Mirror" I realized it was Elisa who had feelings for Goliath first. I always wondered what kind of punishment Broadway received for accidentally shooting Elisa. I know Broadway had extreme guilt over it and since then had become very protective and close to Elisa. Maybe guilt was enough punishment. Who knows but Goliath was hella bent on revenge when Elisa was shot. 

[Arcadiasw]

So much promise especially after Hunter's Moon ended. Besides Journey, I think the episode with Proteus is the only other episode I liked.

[Arcadiasw]

"My name is not Tiny. I am Goliath."  I always break into giggles when Elisa called Goliath Tiny.

[Arcadiasw]

It's fun watching these shows again with adult eyes. When "The Reckoning" aired, as a kid I understood Demona's anger seeing Delilah but as an adult, I REALLY understood her rage! LOL!

 

As a kid, I didn't notice the implication of Fox having a separate room from Xanatos in "The Eye of the Beholder." As an adult, I think it's funny because there's no way they were living together in separate rooms. However, I did call bull back in the day on Catherine and Tom never having a child of their own unless Catherine was barren which would suck. I know it's Disney and all and couldn't indicate premarital sex since Catherine and Tom never married or maybe the writers were too lazy to create a new character but still... no kid?? 

 

Anyone ever wondered if Xanatos ever told Fox he intentionally gave her the Eye of Odin and knew some kind of metamorphosis would take place? If I were Fox I would've been furious at him. Maybe not even married him but given Fox is Fox I think she still would've had she known.

[Arcadiasw]

From Protection since I'm watching it now.

 

Goliath: You now have the evidence you need against this leech?

Elisa: Airtight. Thanks for the help.

Goliath: Then I will go check on Broadway. (starts climbing on a building) I hope to see you soon.

Elisa: Count on it.

 

:Swoons:

[catray]

Anyone ever wondered if Xanatos ever told Fox he intentionally gave her the Eye of Odin and knew some kind of metamorphosis would take place? If I were Fox I would've been furious at him. Maybe not even married him but given Fox is Fox I think she still would've had she known.

 

I definitely think it was implied that Xanatos was curious about the Eye of Odin and knew there might be some side effects from wearing. He better hope that Fox never finds out, because she would totally kick his ass.

[Arcadiasw]

Definitely a great ending to the series (at least, that's how I view it, in light of the lack of a cohesive continuation).

 

Did you read the Slave Labor Graphics continuation of the series, as written by Greg?  The sporadic release date and questionable art in places turned me off, but I'd be curious as to how it continues things.  I heard that apparently Elisa dates Morgan the cop briefly, which makes no sense to me at all....

 

Season Two was really daring.  I loved the Avalon stuff and flashbacks and the Archmage (David Warner!!), but the World Tour was a bit exhausting back in the day.  I remember thinking I didn't appreciate having so much dry cultural history inserted into the series, but now that I'm older, I appreciate the lengths they went to to ensure the show had content.

 

Angela was a great addition to the cast too.

 

And the Gathering was great stuff.  Never saw the big reveals there coming, not by a long shot...

 

I read the comics. Not sure how many were made but I read two volumes. I didn't agree with the Elisa/Morgan date. It really came out of nowhere. I read Greg Weisman wanted to do that because Keith David voiced Goliath and Morgan and Greg Weisman wanted to create a Keith-Salli-Keith love triangle.

 

I never saw anything romantic between Elisa and Morgan in the series. Morgan came off as older and a father figure to Elisa to me especially after "High Noon." I always thought he was married, too. As for their date, the whole thing started during Elisa's visit to Jason Canmore. It's implied Jason knows that the 'someone who will always come first' is Goliath. He tells Elisa she needs to be with someone who can give her everything and Goliath isn't that guy. Elisa tells Goliath they should break up and stick to their own species because they can't give each other what they need. Goliath doesn't agree with Elisa. Elisa tells him she wants someone she can go on picnics in the afternoon with, she wants normalcy and Goliath can't provide that and forces Goliath to date Delilah. At the Halloween party at the castle, Elisa shows up with Morgan which pisses Angela off lol and Goliath shows up with Delilah. This is the first time Elisa sees Delilah and all of a sudden Elisa can't handle Goliath dating Delilah because Delilah looks so much like her. Goliath called Elisa out on her hypocrisy. Thailog crashes the party and nearly kills Goliath. As Goliath is being treated by Dr. Sato, Elisa realizes how stupid she was and she and Goliath confess their love for each other and kiss in front of everyone. In the next chapter, a healed Goliath tells Elisa he won't hold her to her 'I love you' on Halloween because she thought he was dying. He tells her he still can't provide her what she wants. Elisa tells Goliath she wants a relationship with him and tells him they can have picnics anytime and normalcy's overrated. Goliath's happy there are no more obstacles for them and kisses Elisa. It should be noted earlier that day Elisa learned her brother and Maggie were going to have a baby. So that was another kick in the head Elisa needed to go for it with Goliath.  

 

Overall in seems out of character for Elisa to break up with Goliath so soon and over that. By the end of Hunter's Moon, it seemed Elisa finally came to terms with her feelings for Goliath and what a relationship with him may entail and dives in anyway. Otherwise she wouldn't have kissed Goliath and declare her love for him then nor would she have planned a date with him in The Journey. If Elisa was going to be influence by anyone to not date Goliath it would be her friends and family. I can see her parents trying to caution Elisa from dating Goliath. Maybe even Matt, too, but not Jason Canmore. He would be last person Elisa would listen to. Besides being a romantic rival, Jason hasn't completely turned a new leaf towards the gargoyles. Realizing they're not evil is one thing but that doesn't mean Jason would be cool with Elisa dating a gargoyle.

I definitely think it was implied that Xanatos was curious about the Eye of Odin and knew there might be some side effects from wearing. He better hope that Fox never finds out, because she would totally kick his ass.

LOL! I agree. There are so many episodes from Gargoyles I wish to see follow ups from.

[Arcadiasw]

Enter MacBeth

 

Brooklyn's "Ouch"

 

The Price

 

Brooklyn: Okay. This is getting old

 

Leader of the Pack

 

Brooklyn: (To Lexington) How come whenever we take Bronx out we wind up like this?

 

The Edge

 

The entire exchange between Goliath and Xanatos at the castle. Goliath wanting to rip Xanatos apart and Xanatos cool demeanor was awesome.

[DisneyBoy]

Overall in seems out of character for Elisa to break up with Goliath so soon and over that. By the end of Hunter's Moon, it seemed Elisa finally came to terms with her feelings for Goliath and what a relationship with him may entail and dives in anyway. Otherwise she wouldn't have kissed Goliath and declare her love for him then nor would she have planned a date with him in The Journey. If Elisa was going to be influence by anyone to not date Goliath it would be her friends and family. I can see her parents trying to caution Elisa from dating Goliath. Maybe even Matt, too, but not Jason Canmore. He would be last person Elisa would listen to. Besides being a romantic rival, Jason hasn't completely turned a new leaf towards the gargoyles. Realizing they're not evil is one thing but that doesn't mean Jason would be cool with Elisa dating a gargoyle.

 

Thanks for that summary - I never had a chance to read the comics, and this really highlights why I heard so much negative criticism towards them. I agree it's nutty for Elisa to suddenly pull a 180 regarding Goliath immediately after kissing him, and I can't wrap my head around how Elisa would "force" Goliath to date Delilah (creepy much? She's a clone of Elisa, right?)

 

And as we're already stated, Elisa and Morgan are never, have never and could never be a couple. Nothing romantic there. And Jason definitely wouldn't be in the position to give Elisa advice on her love life...not given how they've barely known each other for two weeks.

 

Strange that her brother and Maggie were going to conceive though. I know Gargoyles have different features and such, but wasn't her brother a mutant, whereas Maggie wasn't? I don't know...the whole "people experimented on and turned into half-animals" interbreeding concept gives me the ick. If a goat man mutant conceives with a gargoyle, what the heck would their child be??

 

Confusing. But then, I was always confused by all the endless clones mutants and cyborgs on the series.

 

So really, that's the only nit I have, because the "demon" didn't kill the Kanmore's ancestor.

 

Hmm, good point! Never thought of that.

[DisneyBoy]

I watched...three...episodes, I think. Perhaps also one with the minotaur?

 

I really disliked the narration, the pretentious title ("Goliath Chronicles" how, exactly?) and the tone shift. Here, the clan was much more prone to violence and the show's moral compass seemed way out of whack.

[DisneyBoy]

I liked the twist of Macbeth marrying Demona, but intensely disliked the animation in that episode. Definitely subpar, and that's a bummer considering it was the episode that really introduced Angella to her mother.

 

As for MacBeth...I didn't really care for him as a character or villain. He wasn't especially interesting outside of the "City of Stone" arc and whenever he appeared it usually just meant a lot of fighting.

[Arcadiasw]

I often wondered how Macbeth later dealt with realizing he married Demona. We assumed he only kissed her during their courtship but as an adult I now wonder if they did other stuff that couldn't be shown or implied on a Disney cartoon. I really wouldn't put it past Demona to do that. I imagine Macbeth reacting the same way as Ace Ventura. LOL!

 

I think we all knew Angela would find out Demona is her mother so the reveal wasn't shocking to me. As a kid, I was shocked Goliath publicly announced he is in love with Elisa. He didn't even hide it and if Macbeth wasn't so distracted with what happened to him, he definitely would've caught on.

 

I didn't care for Macbeth too much either except for City of Stone. That seemed to be the only time he was interesting to me.

[Arcadiasw]

The Minotaur, Taurus, was in the one with Proteus. I think it was Seeing Isn't Believing. Another one I liked was "A Bronx Tail." One thing I never got from the Proteus episode, how did he know about Goliath and Elisa? It would've made more sense if Proteus, after his escape caught them together, he overheard Taurus make a comment about them, or in a flashback while he was escaping with Elisa, she said something that implied more than friendship between her and Goliath. I didn't like Goliath trapped the way he was. Goliath's super strong. He would've broken out of those bands he was in. Proteus should've had something stronger to hold Goliath.

 

I know Gargoyles wasn't gonna last forever and even towards the end of the second season with episodes like "Possession" and "Turf" you kind of get a feel the series was wrapping up. I think if given a proper third season in syndication and not ABC, with the Season 1 and Season 2 writers, the show could've gone another thirty or forty shows with two multi parts as a season opener and series finale to properly wrap things up.

 

So many things I wished we could've seen. I would've loved to see the Maza's reaction to Elisa dating Goliath. That would not have gone over smoothly. Beth might've been accepting of it. Peter I think would've resisted the most and I think Diane would accept it eventually. Diane accepted the gargoyles pretty smoothly in "Mark of the Panther," but I don't think she or any Mom would be as cool as Kagome's Mom in Inuyasha. Derek would be okay eventually but I think initially he might be against it.

 

I would've love to see Goliath and Elisa's courtship and their interaction now as a couple as opposed to being friends. What would they do on a date? What Goliath's nickname for Elisa? It's hard to top Angel of the Night. I know some fanfic writers have used Beloved or Angel of Love.

 

I would've LOVE to see Demona's reaction and retaliation to Goliath and Elisa dating. I know she suspects but having actually proof would really set her off. LOL!

 

I think Matt would've been cool with Elisa and Goliath. I think the clan would've been accepting but I think Hudson might've question it. Not that he would be against the pairing but more concern at the risks Goliath and Elisa were taking. Hudson has seen so much. It would've been nice to know what he really thought.

 

The courtship between Angela and Broadway would've been more developed in a longer third season. I admit I am one who wanted Brooklyn to finally get the girl and I was shocked about Angela and Broadway. Because of "Possession" I always wonder if part of the reason Angela and Broadway got together is because of Coldstone and Coldfire possessing them and if their love still lingered in Broadway and Angela. Personality wise I think they are a good match, but I think it would've been more believable if we saw a natural progression between them.

 

A longer third season would've given us a follow up to the Canmores, particularly how Jon Canmore became Jon Castaway and how he developed the Quarrymen. With Xanatos no longer an enemy to the gargoyles, Jon Castaway would've been the main human villain against the gargoyles. 

 

Of course there's Thailog. Aside from Xanatos, he was my favorite gargoyles villain. I think we should've seen more of  the Illuminati, Tony Dracon, Coldstone, Coldfire and Coldsteel, Talon, the Mutates and Clones, the England gargoyle clan and lingering question if Maria Chavez would ever learn Elisa's secret.

 

Oh, third season. What you could've been. Sigh

Edited August 24, 2015 by Arcadiasw

[Arcadiasw]

Thanks for that summary - I never had a chance to read the comics, and this really highlights why I heard so much negative criticism towards them. I agree it's nutty for Elisa to suddenly pull a 180 regarding Goliath immediately after kissing him, and I can't wrap my head around how Elisa would "force" Goliath to date Delilah (creepy much? She's a clone of Elisa, right?)

 

And as we're already stated, Elisa and Morgan are never, have never and could never be a couple. Nothing romantic there. And Jason definitely wouldn't be in the position to give Elisa advice on her love life...not given how they've barely known each other for two weeks.

 

Strange that her brother and Maggie were going to conceive though. I know Gargoyles have different features and such, but wasn't her brother a mutant, whereas Maggie wasn't? I don't know...the whole "people experimented on and turned into half-animals" interbreeding concept gives me the ick. If a goat man mutant conceives with a gargoyle, what the heck would their child be??

 

Confusing. But then, I was always confused by all the endless clones mutants and cyborgs on the series.

 

 

Hmm, good point! Never thought of that.

 

Yep Delilah is a clone of Elisa and Demona. In the comic, Elisa never saw Delilah until Halloween. I really find that hard to believe. Now, I can believe Goliath never telling Elisa Delilah looks like her with Demona's body. Of course I also think Goliath felt some kind of way when he saw Delilah for the first time. LOL! Not that he would court her because he was in love with Elisa but I don't see Elisa knowing her DNA was mixed with Demona's to create a clone not going to the Labyrinth to see what she looks like.

 

I think Greg Weisman was trying to create more drama than needed with Goliath and Elisa with that breakup. One thing I've always loved about Goliath and Elisa was their maturity. 'The Green' is a perfect example of that. It was rare then and even now to see two adult leads on a show acting as mature as Goliath and Elisa. There wasn't any pettiness or long drawn out triangles. You knew by 'Vows' Goliath finally closed the book on him and Demona and moved on because by "City of Stone" Goliath was over Demona and probably in love with Elisa then. I love the show never did the silly back and forth Ross/Rachel thing. In "Hunter's Moon" Elisa realized she had to make a decision. I like to think Elisa returning to the clock tower that night was Weisman's way of saying Elisa made her decision before learning Jason is a Hunter.

 

Derek and Maggie were mutants. Derek looked like a panther mutant and Maggie looked like a lion mutant. So both being mutants from the cat family, I say it's possible. Very curious how that kid would turn out though.

 

The Canmore family was always evil and batcrap crazy to me. I never had any sympathy for them. It sucks Demona murdered their Dad but that doesn't justify blowing up a police station to get the gargoyles.  

[Arcadiasw]

What were your thoughts on Derek? I think of Derek as the dumb Maza. I see a little of myself and my brother in Elisa and Derek because I've had moments warning my brother against doing something, he doesn't listen and it comes back to bite him but even my brother wasn't dumb like Derek. I was surprised in the opening scene of "Metamorphosis" to learn Derek was still working for Xanatos. The Maza's are a loving family so I never understood why Derek didn't consider listening to that tape. Derek was stubborn and arrogant in thinking he can handle anything but honestly when your sister who arrested your boss is warning you against this guy, you could at least listen to the tape or go see her source because Elisa tried twice to show Derek the gargoyles and he wouldn't go.

 

Until the reveal at the end of "Metamorphosis" even I thought Goliath accidently killed Sevarius so I get Derek's anger towards Goliath but Derek in "The Cage" left me speechless. Derek's still blind to Xanatos' manipulation and believed Xanatos when he said Goliath and Sevarius were working to create more gargoyle like creatures. I can buy Derek believing that. When Derek arrived at the Lab to see Goliath, Sevarius and Elisa there, Derek isn't aware Goliath kidnapped Sevarius to force a cure for Derek and the mutants, but I was still stunned Derek thought Elisa was working with Goliath and Sevarius in a nefarious way. How could he think is own sister would be apart of something like that?

 

It's lucky Elisa is as forgiving as she is because what he accused her of would cause some serious friction between siblings. Would've been interesting in the writers went that way though.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I never warmed up to Derek; he was as dumb as a box of hair.

[Arcadiasw]

Demona, you crazy mixed up gargoyle. :P

 

Boy, she really blew it. Goliath really loved Demona. Even after what she did, betraying the clan to the Vikings, trying to kill him, make him a zombie, Goliath was willing to take her back if she was willing in "Vows." I think Demona loved Goliath but only so far. I think part of her attraction to Goliath was his position in the clan. In "Long Way to Morning." she was eager to push Hudson out and have Goliath lead. Makes you wonder how long after Goliath became leader did he make her his second in command.

 

Also the plan Demona conspired with the Captain was really stupid. Even if the plan had worked and Goliath took the gargoyles with him, as soon as he awakened, Goliath would've led the gargoyles to attack the Vikings and rescue Princess Katherine and her people. That's how Goliath is and it shows Demona really didn't know him or was too blind with her own desires. There's no way Goliath would've been okay with the Vikings taking Katherine and her people away and not do something about that.

 

It's funny how Demona actually got Goliath and Elisa together.

 

While Elisa was secretly crushing on Goliath, Goliath never noticed her until Puck change Elisa to a gargoyle which wouldn't have happened if Demona wasn't so hell bent on getting rid of Elisa. Demona turns everyone in New York to stone which makes Elisa vulnerable, Goliath determine to stop Demona and realize his love for Elisa. In "High Noon" Elisa at the risk of her life saves the gargoyles, particularly Goliath's. Of course everything around Hunter's Moon, finally got Elisa to confess her feelings for Goliath. It doesn't pay to be evil.

[Arcadiasw]

One of the fun things in watching a show as an adult you saw as a kid, you notice and feel things you hadn't before. I shipped Goliath and Elisa but I wasn't attracted to Goliath. I thought he was a cool character but now I'm older I'm looking at Goliath a different type of way. If I was Elisa, I would've jumped on him way before Hunter's Moon. LOL!

 

Even if meant getting back with Demona who he love deeply, he couldn't change who he was or go against his belief just to have her back. It's such a real life lesson in relationships. I love Goliath wasn't a character who was pathetically trying to get back with an ex who didn't want him anymore. I hated 'Vows' as a kid but I understand the episode now. It's shows such maturity and character. Goliath's not one to quickly throw in the towel as Demona did on their relationship. He's tried all he can to reach his love and seeing nothing will change things he accepts it and moves on with his life, fully opening himself to loving Elisa.

 

I love his anger, his love for reading, love for his clan and Elisa of course. Wanted to smack for sticking so close to his gargoyle beliefs and not acknowledging Angela but he came around. They need more characters like him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh, I saw this as an adult and loved it. And have rewatched it so many times over the years and still love it.

 

I've ALWAYS loved Goliath. I never thought he was in denial over his feelings for Elisa.  We saw them as Beauty and the Beast in "The Edge", which aired before "The Mirror"--I think the reason for his umm...second look at Elisa in the latter was, he saw what she would have looked like had she been a gargoyle, and seeing her as one, kind of also opened his eyes to her beauty. But the feelings were there from almost the beginning.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don't think it was "Hunter's Moon" that got them both to confess how they felt. The feelings were there from the beginning, and you saw it during their whole trip to all those places.  When she was shot, how he vowed revenge.  Even when their voyage was done and he took her home, she got sarcastic and said something like "yeah, yeah, you're glad it's all over" it was raining, and she also cried.  Because Goliath said "That's not what I was going to say..."

 

And Elisa says "But that's how things are."

 

But it was the murdering spree of Jason, his brother and sister, that kind of finally brought it all out. She even broke away from Jason's kiss.

[Arcadiasw]

Oh, I saw this as an adult and loved it. And have rewatched it so many times over the years and still love it.

 

I've ALWAYS loved Goliath. I never thought he was in denial over his feelings for Elisa.  We saw them as Beauty and the Beast in "The Edge", which aired before "The Mirror"--I think the reason for his umm...second look at Elisa in the latter was, he saw what she would have looked like had she been a gargoyle, and seeing her as one, kind of also opened his eyes to her beauty. But the feelings were there from almost the beginning.

I don't think Goliath was ever in denial of his feelings towards Elisa. I think he might've been conflicted until after 'Vows.' I think until "The Mirror" he saw Elisa as a friend. When Elisa was shot, of course he cared for her a great deal and he didn't realize how much until she nearly died  but I don't think it was romantic feelings yet. On the verge maybe.  In "The Mirror" it seems Goliath finally noticed Elisa. He even told her, "I'll never realized while you were human how beautiful you are." I think he was blind because he's a gargoyle and she's human and he never noticed beauty in humans until Elisa changed. After Elisa returned to being human, he wasn't blind anymore.

 

The Beauty and the Beast moment was in "Eye of the Beholder" and that came after "The Mirror". I agree the feelings were there from the beginning but I'm not sure if they realized it yet. Hudson saw it judging from his glare in Awakening Part Three. And I like think Goliath was flirting a little bit in "Reawakening" when Elisa asked Goliath if he needed anything and he said a Detective.

[Arcadiasw]

Possession

 

I'm going by memory here.

 

Goliath and Hudson were hanging upside down trapped by Coldsteel's cables. Alexander possessing Lexington arrive to free them. I think it was Hudson who asked how they were gonna get down and Lexington cut Hudson's cables first and he hits the floor hard and Goliath says, "I supposed that's one way to do it."

 

I love when Goliath shows humor and sarcasm. It was so rare and Keith David nailed it every time.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Arcadiasw

[Arcadiasw]

I don't think it was "Hunter's Moon" that got them both to confess how they felt. The feelings were there from the beginning, and you saw it during their whole trip to all those places.  When she was shot, how he vowed revenge.  Even when their voyage was done and he took her home, she got sarcastic and said something like "yeah, yeah, you're glad it's all over" it was raining, and she also cried.  Because Goliath said "That's not what I was going to say..."

 

And Elisa says "But that's how things are."

 

But it was the murdering spree of Jason, his brother and sister, that kind of finally brought it all out. She even broke away from Jason's kiss.

Actually, that's "The Mirror" you're quoting there. Goliath publicly announced he loved Elisa in "Sanctuary". No one except Elisa noticed it. Well maybe Bronx, too. Demona was knocked out and Angela and Macbeth were distracted with their own issues to notice. When they returned from their Avalon adventure Goliath was on the verge of confessing again  when he told Elisa he will always be there for her but Elisa stopped him, saying "We are what we are." Oh, these moments are gonna have me searching for my DVDs again. :)

[GHScorpiosRule]

Shit, you're right!

 

But even so, no matter the words said or not said, by the time Avalon "released" them, we I knew how they felt about each other.

[GHScorpiosRule]

D'OH! I knew something was wrong with that title synopsis when I looked it up.

 

But yeah, Goliath "seeing" Elisa as a Gargoyle brought in the I now see how beautiful she really is...even if the feelings, romantic were probably underneath all the friendship feelings.

 

What?

 

And I blame watching the two seasons-back-to-back for my confusion.

[Arcadiasw]

That's okay. I thought it might've been the library scene that got you mixed up since the library scene from  "Eye of the Beholder" pretty much duplicated from "The Edge." Nice continuity but I've confused myself on the episodes because of that scene.
 
 

[Arcadiasw]

I wonder if the seeds of Demona's greed for power started in the flashback in "Vows". She WAS the Archmage apprentice and I think she learned more than sorcery from him. His abuse towards her probably was another factor in hating humans. I know some consider Demona a good gargoyle gone bad because of humans hatred but I think she's always been a bit bad but hid it well. From "High Noon" she knows Coldsteel and his wicked tendencies and dislike of Goliath pretty well and how cold was she when creating Coldstone, she used his, Coldfire and Coldsteel stone parts to bring him to life knowing the relationship between the three.

[VCRTracking]

I think every Star Trek fan should check out Gargoyles because Marina Sirtis absolutely kills it as Demona. She never got the respect from Trekkies because Deanna Troi was kind of a weak character(IMO) that the TNG writers never really knew what to do with.

[Arcadiasw]

Ironically, it's because of Gargoyles I watched Star Trek TNG. A little off topic and not sure if this is true but I read TBTB wanted Patrick Stewart for Goliath but his agent turned down the role without consulting Stewart and he was furious when he found out. I love Patrick Stewart and I think he's a great actor but I don't see anyone else but Keith David voicing Goliath.

 

Such a shame Marina Sirtis isn't as respected in the Star Trek community. I met her and Jonathan Frakes at Dragon Con. They were so much fun.

[DisneyBoy]

I think every Star Trek fan should check out Gargoyles because Marina Sirtis absolutely kills it as Demona. She never got the respect from Trekkies because Deanna Troi was kind of a weak character(IMO) that the TNG writers never really knew what to do with.

 

 

Agreed. It's definitely her best performance.

[DisneyBoy]

I finally found a way to read Greg Weisman's out-of-print official Season 3 comic books from Slave Labor Graphics. I remember when they started to hit the newsstands thinking that the art was a big let-down. Apparently it got better with time but the series was ultimately cancelled.

Did anybody read these or the Bad Guys series? If so, what did you like/dislike about them?

[catray]

It annoys me that a) I missed these when they were released and b) they are impossible to get these days. I only read the first collected volume (Clan Builiding Vol 1) and I don't remember a whole lot about it except doesn't Elisa go on a date with Morgan?! I remember finding that very bizarre.

[DisneyBoy]

Yeah, I heard about that when the issues were first released. Morgan as a potential boyfriend comes out of left field, especially since Goliath and Elisa were just starting to date. I chose to stay away until I heard better things about the series...thankfully I can read them through now.

Let's read them through together!

Issues 1 & 2 retell the story of the first episode of the third season, which Greg apparently wrote or at least provided an outline of. I've never watched that episode so I don't know how faithful this comic is to it.

I think the story is a little padded out for what it is. Essentially we see a group known as The Quarrymen gather for a KKK style rally and then attempt to destroy Goliath when he is sleeping on the roof of Elisa's apartment. They are supposed to be on their first official date, and instead are chased down by these attackers in their fancy helicopter. This goes on and on and on until the leader and one of the new recruits (that supporting character who once threw a pie at the Gargoyles) have Goliath and Elisa cornered in the remains of the Clock Tower. The leader gets pissed at the new recruit for deciding he doesn't really want to hurt anybody, and then Goliath gets the upper hand only for the leader to escape via helicopter. The new recruit decides to move to Japan for his new job and Elisa and Goliath wish him well. It's pretty generic and didn't need to play out over the course of 40 pages. We learn nothing much about the origins of The Quarrymen, and it doesn't make much sense that the new recruit joins as randomly as he does, considering he already knows gargoyles aren't as dangerous as they are being made out to be.

I enjoyed the glimpses of the clan back in the castle, especially of Lexington playing with young Alex while glaring at Fox, and it was bizarre to find out that Margot is actually the district attorney of New York, what with her bizarre pink headband and total lack of composure throughout the animated series. She and Macbeth are interviewed on a late-night television show debating the potential threat of gargoyles. He has apparently written a book on the creatures, which surprised me because I don't remember him ever wanting to be an author.

The biggest weird point of the issue is Goliath suddenly being sullen about the thought of being "alone". Hadn't he just finished a world tour that revealed the existence of dozens and dozens of other gargoyles? Hadn't he just hooked up with Elisa? Hadn't they just regained their ancestral home? That seems like a lot to be upbeat about.

It's pretty clear his attitude was written purely to motivate his flashback that recaps the history of clan and then to provide the end of the story with a feeling of resolution when he cheers up and smiles with Elisa after nearly dying...but it still felt artificial and out-of-charactercter.

As for the art, it isn't...terrible, per se. It just feels very rough. Proportions are off, layouts are weak and one gets the sense that the artist is new to the field. A good inker could have helped slightly...but ultimately, they would have been wise to get the cover artist, who was an actual artist on the animated series, to provide interiors as well. I suppose money was an issue there, but this was not the art anybody wanted to see out of a long-awaited Gargoyles book.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Disney upped the cost of the license to prevent SLG from continuing to publish it. Maybe they felt it was doing damage to the brand?

 

I'll chime back in with a review of issue 3 and whatever follows!

Edited September 15, 2016 by DisneyBoy

[catray]

Well, the animated third season was mostly terrible except for the first two episodes, and I would say the comic hews pretty closely to those two episodes overall (there are some minor changes of course, but I can't remember details because it's been ages since I saw those episodes and I don't think they are currently available anywhere). I think it's mostly just supposed to work as a set up for the season, pitting the Quarrymen (and NYC) against the Gargoyles. The thing I like about the comics/episodes was that we see a lot of recurring characters from earlier episodes (Margot [totally unbelievable ADA] and poor hapless Vinnie). I agree though, the art on a whole is pretty rough and the comics could have actually delved a lot more into the origins of the Quarrymen, but they just remain a generic xenophobic hate group (which still works in today's world). As a set up it's ok but not great, and it is pretty bland unless you've been following the series as a whole and love the characters.

I wish Disney would either let go of the Gargoyles license or do something with it... Greg Weisman has been working with Marvel on their Star Wars books (the Kanan series in particular) so why not let him go back and work on Gargoyles again?!

[GHScorpiosRule]

The third season was horrible--not only in the thin plots (Word on your comment about Margot the bigot, who is now ADA @catray), but the cheap animation. I think I mentioned this in the season's thread, but I didn't like how...white they made Goliath when he had that dream/nightmare, where he's human and was never a Gargoyle. In the original, first season, "The Mirror" when he became human for a nano-second, he had the look of a man who was Native American, or someone who was person of color. That pale-faced, buzzed hair dude? Blech. His human self in the first season? ROWR! along with his long, black locks.

What?

Edited September 17, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule