S03.E22: Alexander Kirk

[HawaiiTVGuy]

15 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

For what it's worth, St. Agnes is the patron saint of childhood and little girls. In fact, on the eve of her feast day, January 20, girls are to perform a number of rituals so that their future husband appears in a dream.

Add to that is the fact that Tom is a white guy and there’s one big reason why he can be “redeemed” and Solomon supposedly can’t.

I also believe that the writing has let Tom down. Eggold plays him- and plays him very well- as a sympathetic character, but the writing is anything but. It’s kind of like Patrick Jane on The Mentalist- Simon Baker played him to have a heart, but the writers couldn’t have been bothered to show it. It ultimately dragged down The Mentalist, and it will drag down the spin-off if the writers are not careful.
 

I think that Solomon can't be redeemed is he enjoys being an murderous A-Hole way too much.  Tom hasn't seemed to be the type to "enjoy" killing, he is more like Red in that way, they will kill without a second thought, but they never seem to "enjoy" it.

[buttersister]

On 5/14/2016 at 5:00 PM, ottoDbusdriver said:

Then again zombie Lizzie might actually be an improvement

Not sure how she would be different. Random thoughts: Edi needs to be part of the team---he's all charisma all the time. He, Framke and Ryan are actors who make it fun to watch them, so even though I don't trust the writers to get it right (if it's the same writers), they might make it interesting enough to watch. Otoh, not sure how long they can keep it up if the scripts sink to Blacklist avec Lizzie level, which I watched because ... Spader.

Blacklist: The Redumption?

[Drusilla]

On 16/5/2016 at 0:58 PM, Danielg342 said:

Add to that is the fact that Tom is a white guy and there’s one big reason why he can be “redeemed” and Solomon supposedly can’t.

I also believe that the writing has let Tom down. Eggold plays him- and plays him very well- as a sympathetic character, but the writing is anything but. It’s kind of like Patrick Jane on The Mentalist- Simon Baker played him to have a heart, but the writers couldn’t have been bothered to show it. It ultimately dragged down The Mentalist, and it will drag down the spin-off if the writers are not careful.
 

I wouldn't be at all surprised over the whole white guy redemption thing at all. As for the writing failing the character, I completely agree with you, it affects every single character on the show except Reddington, who bada bing, rewrites all his own lines. If James Spader had taken the Tom Keen role, be assured there would be no legion of overwrought wimmin defending his every abusive action (and they'd all be hating on his overnight redemption), because hey James Spader is James Spader but it's not 1982 anymore.

The part that just annoys me about TK moving into a spin off is that it's already been done before - by The Blacklist. Dodgy criminals who murder for cash going around getting the bad guys because the useless Feds couldn't catch a cold. Mommygate issues vs Daddygate issues. Deju vu. All over again.

Had they really addressed the Tom Keen character after he was exposed as psycho Tom and done something coherent with him instead of just letting him float around not being part of anything, it could have all been so much more interesting. Eggold is a good actor, he deserves better than this but I don't think he's gonna get it in his new pasture...

9 hours ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

I think that Solomon can't be redeemed is he enjoys being an murderous A-Hole way too much.  Tom hasn't seemed to be the type to "enjoy" killing, he is more like Red in that way, they will kill without a second thought, but they never seem to "enjoy" it.

No killer does, they're all after the elusive high to be gained from killing, but they never quite feel it and so have to continue. Hence the my job sucks faces they all have!

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Quote

We don't know anything about Solomon's backstory. I'm expecting that once we do learn about him, there's more shades of gray.

Will Red really just let go of the fact that Solomon tortured Dembe, and can Dembe forget that Solomon poisoned his granddaughter?  There has to be some kind of showdown before Solomon can be redeemed, which I 100% agree is what the spinoff will attempt to do.  We will be expected to root for Solomon and the team to succeed in their "gray" endeavors.  His origin story better be even more miserable than Dembe's.  Solomon (I speculate), Dembe, Tom and Liz (when she returns...) should have a support group for orphaned children with really bad back stories.

Edited May 23, 2016 by ItCouldBeWorse

[HawaiiTVGuy]

9 hours ago, Drusilla said:

 

No killer does, they're all after the elusive high to be gained from killing, but they never quite feel it and so have to continue. Hence the my job sucks faces they all have!

That is my point, Soloman has never had that face.  He is completely happy in the element of ordering a hit, but to give him credit, he has the same attitude when facing his own demise.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

This Blacklist Is Super PAC'd With Tension!

Sure, most of it is political tension, but there's a fair amount of creepy sexual tension too!

[Danielg342]

I think something should be said about the show's decision to cast "the murderous A-hole" with a black man. Already this show has fallen to another part of the destructive "scary black man" trope- Dembe is your Mr. T-type character who is big, imposing and makes everyone looking at him crap their pants- so it's disappointing that Solomon has to play another kind of that type.

Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying it's entirely about race for the reason why Tom gets redeemed and (so far) Solomon isn't. However, I can't dismiss it as a factor. Something tells me that Tom was never thought of originally as a "good guy" until the writers changed their minds, and that same something makes me wonder if Solomon was a charismatic white dude, he'd have been "redeemed" quicker.

To me, there is no reason why Edi Gathegi cannot be the star of his own show. He has all the tools. Yet it's him who "continues to be bad" while Tom can have a starring vehicle of his own. I think Ryan Eggold has earned it, but it's frustrating to me that Gathegi cannot.

[Drusilla]

8 hours ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

That is my point, Soloman has never had that face.  He is completely happy in the element of ordering a hit, but to give him credit, he has the same attitude when facing his own demise.

It's impossible to know what Solomon is feeling, thinking; he's Dembe, just goin around doin what he's told to do. He is a badly drawn character. Jeez I feel bad for actors now... join a fairly popular crime show that has turned into a babygate mommy/daddygate fake death with spin off soap, or wait tables... what to do what to do. Feel sure though Gathegi wouldn't have been desperate for this gig ...

[Drusilla]

1 hour ago, Danielg342 said:

I think something should be said about the show's decision to cast "the murderous A-hole" with a black man. Already this show has fallen to another part of the destructive "scary black man" trope- Dembe is your Mr. T-type character who is big, imposing and makes everyone looking at him crap their pants- so it's disappointing that Solomon has to play another kind of that type.

Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying it's entirely about race for the reason why Tom gets redeemed and (so far) Solomon isn't. However, I can't dismiss it as a factor. Something tells me that Tom was never thought of originally as a "good guy" until the writers changed their minds, and that same something makes me wonder if Solomon was a charismatic white dude, he'd have been "redeemed" quicker.

To me, there is no reason why Edi Gathegi cannot be the star of his own show. He has all the tools. Yet it's him who "continues to be bad" while Tom can have a starring vehicle of his own. I think Ryan Eggold has earned it, but it's frustrating to me that Gathegi cannot.

Daniel I totally totally agree. But stereotypes are what this show is all about. Brandon Sonnier found himself enmeshed in a Twitter argument with people who are taking umbrage to this ridiculous redemption of a psycho, Liz being an easily controlled martyr, amongst other things, and all he had was "Liz is a kick ass FBI agent". It quite beggared belief and no one let him off with it either, especially the spousal abuse angle. He did actually admit to Tom being the bad guy. All it needed was the Solomon angle.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

14 hours ago, Drusilla said:

It's impossible to know what Solomon is feeling, thinking; he's Dembe, just goin around doin what he's told to do. He is a badly drawn character. Jeez I feel bad for actors now... join a fairly popular crime show that has turned into a babygate mommy/daddygate fake death with spin off soap, or wait tables... what to do what to do. Feel sure though Gathegi wouldn't have been desperate for this gig ...

I guess it is "impossible" to know what he is feeling or thinking except you can judge him by how he reacts to others and talks about what he is doing.  His very off-color remark about Liz's death (as much as the event was needed for the show) was very in-character for Solomon and IMO shows his true colors on what he is feeling or thinking about killing.  Again, I have no issues with an actor choosing such a role, I am just making a point about how both characters are portrayed and why Tom is redeemable versus Solomon, going beyond race.

[Drusilla]

11 hours ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

I guess it is "impossible" to know what he is feeling or thinking except you can judge him by how he reacts to others and talks about what he is doing.  His very off-color remark about Liz's death (as much as the event was needed for the show) was very in-character for Solomon and IMO shows his true colors on what he is feeling or thinking about killing.  Again, I have no issues with an actor choosing such a role, I am just making a point about how both characters are portrayed and why Tom is redeemable versus Solomon, going beyond race.

You have to get that most of my posts are heavily laced with sarcasm. I have no beef with any actor in this show, but the writers deserve scorn heaped upon steaming hot scorn. Solomon is one dimensional bog standard tv trope bad guy. Tom is a sociopathic killer. Neither one of them have the capability to be redeemed at all. Liz is a plot device for both them to move on to The Blacklist: Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here

[paigow]

Will these shows end up crossing over like Arrow / The Flash or Dick Wolf's Chicago [ Apocalypse ]?

[Mom x 3]

On May 14, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Grace284 said:

Someone. Please. Tell Scotty that Tom is her son before she tries to fuck him.

Anyway, that was an interesting episode of an entirely different show that I didn't choose to watch. It needed more Red but at least they stopped eulogizing Liz for ten seconds to allow the plot to happen.

Yes, but if no one did - that would make for a jumping point for a spin off.  Of course, like baby deaths and whatnot, it won't happen, but it would be hilarious.

On May 14, 2016 at 9:41 PM, kitmerlot1213 said:

I agree that Tom is a fascinating character and Ryan Eggold has star presence but I just can't with Famke Janssen--the woman is so fake looking with her overly died hair and plastic surgery--her face does not move.  Christine Lahti has had some work done, but at least she hasn't gone overboard with the Botox--there is no crime with aging gracefully.

And honestly, we were finally able to unlaod the micro-talent of Megan Boon but now we have to deal with the one note Janssen?

At least Red is still entertaining along with the FBI crew.

I second, third and fourth this.  I have never been able to stand Famke Janssen.  I'm not sure if it's because of the roles she picks (she is never convincing to me) or that fact that she seems very stuck up in interviews.