S04.E13: Sins Of The Father

[kismet]

Honestly, I'm rather fond of my Malcolm is getting battier by the minute head canon.

Oh that's just an amazing theory & head canon. I say go for it! It does make for a better story, regardless of whatever timeline the show has weakly put forth.

 

Personally, I think power does make MM a little unhinged and the loss of it only worsens that ~ so I totally imagine him hallucinating or making false memories. I can also see him making up a story to manipulate OQ. Because honestly, how is OQ going to remember the story? If he questions the accuracy of the memory, he will probably just think its related to faulty childhood memories.

[statsgirl]

Presumably Malcolm talked to Tommy before and Tommy likely pretended to listen, made some half-hearted effort and then went back to being a playboy.  So, Malcolm cut him off and pushed him to grow the fuck up at long last.  And it kind of worked.

Replying in the Malcolm Merlyn character thread.

[statsgirl]

I have a question:  when did Felicity tell Oliver that her father was in town?

 

Once again, TV Line is bringing it up

 

8 | Who was oddly slower to drop a massive bombshell: Castle‘s Rick, waiting overnight to tell Kate about his utterly remarkable L.A. discovery, or Arrow’s Felicity, who a few weeks back didn’t immediately tell Oliver that her long-lost dad resurfaced?

i can't remember; when did Felicty tell Oliver that her father showed up in town?

[lemotomato]

I have a question:  when did Felicity tell Oliver that her father was in town?

 

Once again, TV Line is bringing it up

i can't remember; when did Felicty tell Oliver that her father showed up in town?

Right after the cafe meeting with her dad. No later than the next morning/evening. TV Line is acting like she kept it a secret for months. Oh wait, that was Oliver. 

Edited March 26, 2016 by lemotomato

[apinknightmare]

I'm not sure how long it was. Couldn't have been longer than a few days, but she saw him at work, had dinner with him that night, and then told Oliver at some point later - a day, maybe two? She was definitely in different clothes than she was at the dinner (and Oliver was in different clothes than he had been previously). I thought it was strange since she and Oliver lived together that she mentioned it in the lair who knows how long later. Seems like the kind of thing you'd talk about at home.

Edited March 26, 2016 by apinknightmare

[lemotomato]

Maybe he didn't go home that night because was keeping an eye on Thea or chasing down Merlyn. The convo started with Oliver asking Felicity "Is everything alright?" which implies they haven't seen each other for a little bit. And she does add that "It's not on the level of 'your sister is on her deathbed' sort of bad" so maybe she didn't tell him right away because she didn't think it was his priority at the moment.

Edited March 26, 2016 by lemotomato

[JenMD]

It was definitely the next day (for some reason, I think they're all meeting at the lair in the morning, but I can't remember now why I think that, but "yesterday" is definitely in the dialogue) and no, it doesn't make any sense because it comes up because she looks upset, but, I can't imagine she didn't look upset immediately following coffee with her father and since she and Oliver live together and she was dependent on him to make it up to her room to change she couldn't have not seen him.  He would/should have noticed she was upset the previous night.  I hate when they do stupid plot writing like that, they've done it before and it's so annoying. 

 

The fact that her dad resurfaced had so little to do with Oliver that the show didn't even bother to have them meet face to face; not telling him immediately was so not a big deal.  I mean, really, Dad was rushed out of there like poor Tom Amandes was double-parked, for Pete's sake.  Ugh, still annoyed, thanks for bringing that sore spot back up, TVLIne.

[looptab]

It was especially weird since at the time Felicity needed Oliver to get upstairs.

[apinknightmare]

He would/should have noticed she was upset the previous night.  I hate when they do stupid plot writing like that, they've done it before and it's so annoying. 

 

I mean, even if for some reason he didn't notice - Thea was on death's door again, so there's that - there wouldn't have been any reason for her to not tell him then anyway. I know they needed to bring it up in the lair for the whole "test" idea in front of the team, but Oliver could've still known about it, and it could've been news to the team. Ugh, writers.

[statsgirl]

I know they needed to bring it up in the lair for the whole "test" idea in front of the team, but Oliver could've still known about it, and it could've been news to the team. Ugh, writers.

Exactly. I think it shows how little they cared about that particular plot in the episode. C plot after Thea/Merlyn/Nyssa?

I'm glad to know it was at most the next day and not weeks as TV Line was suggesting.

[ComicFan777]

When Oliver asked if everything was alright, she had mentioned that she had coffee with her father yesterday, so I get the impression that Oliver didn't find out until the next day about Felicity's father.  Felicity mentioned a couple times that her father wasn't anything serious in comparison to what was going on with Thea throughout the episode. 

 

With Nyssa, Merlyn, league civil war on the streets of Star City, and trying to save his sister, it was a bad time for Oliver.  He might have stayed with Thea at the hospital overnight.  I can't fault Oliver for not noticing right away given the circumstances and I'm not surprised that he didn't pick up on it, especially since Felicity was probably trying to hide how she was feeling to not add to his load of problems he was tackling because Felicity tends to put everyone else's problems before her own.

Edited March 26, 2016 by ComicFan777

[lemotomato]

 I can't fault Oliver for not noticing right away given the circumstances and I'm not surprised that he didn't pick up on it, especially since Felicity was probably trying to hide how she was feeling to not add to his load of problems he was tackling because Felicity tends to put everyone else's problems before her own.

Makes me sad how quickly this is forgotten by lots of people two episodes later. 

[Ottis]

This is the episode where Arrow probably jumped the shark. Ollie's big plan was to fight Malcolm on behalf of Nyssa, because he can beat Malcolm in 10 seconds and cut off his hand? I was sure he and Malcolm came up with something clever. Nope. 

[tv echo]

413 (Sins of the Father) – No Oliver Queen voiceover intro.

413 (Sins of the Father) – Felicity’s father, Noah Kuttler, reveals to Felicity that he knows she’s Overwatch and that he’s the Calculator:
Noah: “You know, it's strange, watching your baby girl drink coffee.” 
Felicity: “Yeah. It would probably be a little less strange if you'd seen your baby girl in the last 18 years.” 
Noah: “You're right. I don't suppose it helps if I say that I thought staying out of your life was the best thing for you. I was protecting you and your mother.”
Felicity: “You were protecting yourself. You were wanted by the police, and you didn't want to go to jail. That is why you stayed away.” 
Noah: “And you know why the police were after me? The type of criminal I was?” 
Felicity: “Mom never went into detail. I assume petty stuff. Anything else requires commitment.” 
Noah: “Well, I'm here now, and I want us to speak openly. I'll answer any questions you have.” 
Felicity: “Okay. I just have one at the moment. Why now?” 
Noah: “I was doing a job for someone. Almost got beat. Almost. My adversary had exceptional skills. My curiosity piqued. I investigated further. Imagine what I discovered... Overwatch.”
Felicity (stunned): “Bye. See you never.” (Wheels away)
Noah: “Felicity, wait. It is not what you think. My employer, my work, is hardly diabolical.” 
Felicity: “I'll be sure to tell that to my friend who you blackmailed.” 
Noah: “Short-term legal mischief for long-term societal game. Isn't that kind of hacktivism exactly what you did at M.I.T.? Is it really all that different from the vigilantism you practice today? We are the same, you and I.” 
Felicity: “I am pretty sure that I didn't try to kill 8,000 people.” 
Noah: “An empty threat, I swear to you. I know I have no right. I'm asking for a chance - a chance to prove to you that I'm not a bad guy." (Hands her a USB drive)
Felicity: “What is that?” 
Noah: “A record of some of the hacks I've done throughout the years. I've selected ones that could be verified by news accounts, so you know I'm telling the truth. This is very simple for me, Felicity. I want to be back in your life. I know that doing that will require earning your trust back. I hope this is a first step down that very long road.”

413 (Sins of the Father) – Oliver, Diggle and Laurel discuss their options:
Diggle: "So Nyssa's holding Thea's life hostage until you kill Malcolm Merlyn? I would be surprised if she wasn't the daughter of the Demon."
Oliver: "That's not funny, John."
Laurel: "No, it's not. Thea's dying. She has one, maybe two days. And if we can save her by killing the man that killed my sister, then how could you even think twice about that?"
Oliver: "I'm not gonna defend Malcolm. He orchestrated your sister's murder. He killed Tommy. Nothing is ever gonna change the fact that he is Thea's family. I don't know how much you remember of my father, but he was not a good man. He threw in with Malcolm Merlyn. And all of that being said, there is nothing that I wouldn't do to have him back. So you tell me, how am I supposed to take that away from Thea?"
Diggle: "But, Oliver, what's the difference if Thea dies?"
Oliver: "It doesn't have to come to that, John. There's more than one choice here."
Laurel: "Like what?"
Oliver: "Diplomacy. What does Nyssa want? I mean, all Nyssa really wants is control of the League. So I need to convince Meryln to give her the ring, she gives us the cure, and no one has to die. Laurel, can you convince Nyssa to go along with that?"
Laurel: "Yeah. It's easier than talking Malcolm into it."
Oliver: "Well, let me worry about Malcolm."

413 (Sins of the Father) – Felicity tells the team that the Calculator is her father:
Diggle: “How'd it go with Merlyn?”
Oliver: “Not good. Nyssa?”
Laurel: “She brought an army, but if you get her the ring, she'll play ball.”
Oliver: “We can get this done with no one getting hurt.”
(Felicity enters.)
Oliver: “Everything all right?”
Felicity: “No, not really. I mean, it's not great. It's just not quite at the level of ‘my sister's on her deathbed’ kind of bad, so –“ 
Laurel: “What happened?” 
Felicity: “My dad came back.” 
Diggle: “And why is that a bad thing?”
Felicity: “Well, it's an extremely long story, but you remember the super hacker who blackmailed Roy? Same guy.”
Oliver: “What?”
Laurel: “Your father is –“
Felicity: “The Calculator. He showed up at my Palmer Tech presentation. I had coffee with him yesterday, where he dropped the Calculator bomb on me.”
Diggle: “And why would he do that?”
Felicity: “Apparently, now that he knows what I do, that we're both ‘vigilantes,’ we have something in common. The sickest part is, I want to believe him. I wish there were some sort of test I could do that would prove that he is who he says he is.”
Oliver: “A test is a good idea. It's a good idea for you and for us. I've got a way to bring Merlyn to the bargaining table.”

413 (Sins of the Father) – Donna warns Felicity against trusting her father:
Donna: “Hi! I got your - oh, no. Oh, no. You have Mr. Square Bear face.”
Felicity: “What?”
Donna: “Mr. Square Bear. Oh, my God, you don't remember? You lost him when you were, like, 4 years old, and you had that exact - you had that exact look on your face. Oh, baby. Is it too much to hope that you lost a plushy toy?”
Felicity: “No, but adjusting for age and inflation, might be just as bad.”
Donna: “Huh?” 
Felicity: “You want to sit?” 
Donna (nervously laughing): “What? What's up?” 
Felicity: “It's Dad. Noah - he's in Star City.”
Donna: “What? How do you know?”
Felicity: “He came to see me.”
Donna: “Did you talk to him?”
Felicity: “Yeah.” 
Donna: “Are you all right?” 
Felicity: “Yeah. You sound like you think he'd hurt me or something.”
Donna: “Yeah.”
Felicity: “I've just been doing some checking. Is it possible that he's not the guy we thought he was, that maybe he's better than we thought he was?”
Donna: “No. Felicity, I would love to think that your father didn't show up with some ulterior motive in your life right now. But I've been where you are more times than I care to admit, and it always ends the same way. He tells you exactly what you want to hear, and you get sucked in, and the next thing you know, you have no job, no money, and a sweet 7-year-old daughter who needs a new pair of shoes and wants to go to Space Camp. People don't change, even if you want them to.”

413 (Sins of the Father) – The team regroups after Oliver’s attempt at a diplomatic compromise fails:
Felicity: “So much for the Gandhi method.”
Laurel: “Given who we're dealing with, we shouldn't be surprised.” 
Oliver: “I cannot believe that being Ra's al Ghul is more important to Malcolm than saving his daughter's life.” 
Laurel: “I know that you're trying a new approach, but just because you've changed, that doesn't mean everybody else has.” 
Oliver: “We cannot allow a League civil war. Too many people will be collateral damage.” 
Diggle: “And the four of us definitely can't take on two armies of assassins.” 
Oliver: “Then we take down the generals. We need to work on locating Nyssa and Malcolm.” 
Felicity: “But mainly Nyssa, because she's got that whole Lotus cure thing.” 
Oliver: “We find both of them. No one else dies tonight. Especially Thea.”

413 (Sins of the Father) – Felicity sets a trap for her father:
Noah: “I'm glad you called.”
Felicity: “Well, all your files checked out, and I did some additional digging myself. You're right. You and I, we're not all that different.” 
Noah: “This facility is really amazing.”
Felicity: “Yes. After numerous false starts, we finally got the R&D Section working like a Swiss watch. This floor contains most of our bleeding edge projects. (Noah picks up a T-sphere) Ah. That is an autonomous communications device three generations beyond Bluetooth.” 
Noah: “But there are no seams in the casing.” 
Felicity: “I know. It's built from a single piece of aluminum. The entire surface connects to an induction charger.” 
Noah: “How did you achieve the heat sink?” 
Felicity: “Curtis Holt achieved it actually. He's quite the genius.” 
Noah: “Don't sell yourself short. You're the Steve Jobs in this equation. Thank you for agreeing to give me a second chance.” 
Felicity: “Baby steps, then.”
Noah: “Baby steps.”

413 (Sins of the Father) – Felicity tells Oliver that her father failed her test, and they talk about whether people can change:
Felicity: “Any luck?” 
Oliver: “Malcolm and the League have gone to ground, Nyssa is a brick wall, John and Laurel are out searching for the Lotus, but we are running out of places to look.” 
Felicity: “Well, that's depressing.” 
Oliver: “Well, we will find it. We have to.” 
Felicity: “Mm-hmm.” 
Oliver: “Is everything all right?”
Felicity: “Not really. I mean, it's not as bad as your sister being unconscious in our sublevel, but –“ 
Oliver: “Did something happen with your dad?”
Felicity: “More like something didn't happen.” (Shows him a square device)
Oliver: “What's that?” 
Felicity: “It's an IR burst receiver, incredibly advanced. It can suck the data out of any room you put it into. Don't worry. I turned it off before bringing it down here.” 
Oliver: “It's not yours?” 
Felicity: “It's my father's. I gave him a little tour of Curtis' R&D lab, and he left this behind as a souvenir.” 
Oliver: “He's trying to steal from Palmer Tech?” 
Felicity: “It was your idea actually. You needed proof about the Lotus, I needed proof about my dad.” 
Oliver: “You set a trap for him as a test.” 
Felicity: “Unrestricted access to Palmer Technologies' R&D lab. He flunked with flying colors. I don't even know why I'm surprised.” 
Oliver: “You're surprised because you're hoping that he's the parent you've always wanted him to be - the parent you deserve.”
Felicity: “In an extremely ironic role reversal, my mother was smarter than me. She said, ‘People don't change, no matter how much you want them to.’”
Oliver: “Some people don't.”
Felicity: “Uh-huh.” 
Oliver: “I'd like to think that there's hope for the rest of us, or I did as far as Malcolm is concerned. John thinks I should kill him.”
Felicity: “If it'd help save Thea, I agree.” 
Oliver: “Yeah, and I'd agree if he wasn't Thea's father. But he is.”
Felicity: “We are in this mess because of him on, like, a million different levels. Let's not pretend that this is a typical father-daughter relationship. He brainwashed her into killing a friend.” 
Oliver: “I know all this. I do, and I'm still holding out hope that with – with - with time and with how much he says that he loves her that maybe they have some chance at some type of normal relationship. If I kill him, my sister never gets that chance.” 
Felicity: “Thea's father is no more likely to change than mine is.”
(Computer beeps.)
Oliver: “What now?” 
Felicity: “Found Malcolm.” 
Oliver: “Where?” 
Felicity: “Right underneath us.”

413 (Sins of the Father) – Malcolm challenges Nyssa to a duel, but Oliver takes Nyssa’s place and defeats Malcolm:
Felicity: “This is one of your crazier ideas, and that is a competitive field.”
Oliver: “Well, sit tight. I have a crazier one coming.”
Malcolm: “In deference to good taste, we will forego the removal of shirts.”
Nyssa: “Let us be finished with this charade.”
Malcolm: “As you wish.”
Oliver: “Hold! In the eyes of the League, this woman is my wife. (To Nyssa) As your husband, (To Malcolm) I wish to fight on her behalf.”
Nyssa: “I have never allowed anyone to fight my battles for me.” 
Oliver: “Do you want to become Ra's, or do you want to die?”
Nyssa: “Why are you doing this?”
Oliver: “You told me yourself you couldn't defeat Merlyn, and if I am forced to choose between your life and his… then I will see justice done.”
Malcolm: “I'm a little disappointed, I must say.”
Oliver: “You're the one who put us in this position, Malcolm.”
Malcolm: “Can I remind you, the role you played in putting this ring on my finger?”
Oliver: “Oh, I remember. Tonight I correct that mistake.” 
Malcolm: “I can't believe it. You've grown even more foolish with experience.” 
Oliver: “Three years! Let's finish this.”
(They fight with swords, and Oliver beats Malcolm.) 
Oliver: “Last chance, Malcolm. Yield!”
Malcolm: “Never. To end this, you must kill me. But you always knew that, Oliver.”
Oliver: “I didn't want it to end this way.”
Malcolm: “Spare me the false sympathy. Just do it.”
(Oliver looks over at Felicity and she gives a slight nod. Oliver cuts off Malcolm’s hand with the ring, and gives the ring to Nyssa.)
Oliver: “Bring me the Lotus. You are Ra's Al Ghul.”
Nyssa: “Thank you, husband.”

413 (Sins of the Father) – Thea is cured with the magical Lotus:
Thea: “What - what is going on? Is everything okay?”
Oliver: “That, uh, depends. How are you feeling?” 
Thea: “I'm, um, I'm a bit tired, but - what am I doing here?” 
Felicity: “It's a long story, but to shorthand it –“
Oliver: “Is that you're gonna be fine. The cure worked. No more bloodlust.” 
Laurel: “Come on. Let's go get you into some regular clothes.” 
Thea: “Yeah. Um." (Thea and Laurel leave)
Diggle: “Oliver, you did it, man. Thea's fine, and Nyssa and Merlyn didn't have to die.” 
Felicity: “Ooh, yeah. Not to be the buzzkill, but when are we gonna tell Thea about Malcolm's – (makes gesture)?” 
Oliver: “Baby steps.”
Felicity: “Right.” 
Oliver: “What's up?” 
Felicity: “Something my father said.”

413 (Sins of the Father) – Felicity has her father arrested:
Noah: “Brought you a portable ramp, so anytime you come across a higher surface, just unfold it. This will get you over almost anything.” 
Felicity: “Look. I have a meeting in a few. I just wanted to say good-bye.” 
Noah: “Good-bye? We're just starting to get to know each other.” 
Felicity: “I think I know everything I need to know.”
Noah: “Felicity, what is going on? I - I thought we were making progress.” 
Felicity: “When I was a girl, I hated myself. I thought I was broken, that no one could or ever would love me. It's the only way a child can grow up when their father abandons them.”
Noah: “Felicity –“
Felicity: “All I ever wanted to know was why. What was so wrong with me that you would leave?” 
Noah: “There was nothing with you, sweetheart. There was everything wrong with me. The police, the FBI, they were never going to stop looking for me. I realized a life on the run - that wasn't the life that I owed you, or your mother. So I disappeared.” 
Felicity: “You thought you were doing the right thing for us.” 
Noah: “Exactly.” 
Felicity: “I have waited my entire life for that explanation, and the thing is I don't even know if I believe it.”
Noah: “It's the truth.” 
Felicity: “There is only one part of your story that I know to be true, and that is that you are wanted by the police.” 
(Quentin enters with two cops.)
Noah: “Felicity –“
Felicity: “I just need you to know one thing. You were wrong. I am nothing like you.” 
Noah: “Felicity.” 
Quentin: “Noah Kuttler, you're under arrest. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can –“
Noah: “Felicity, no.” 
Quentin: “And will be used against you in a court of law.” 
Noah: “Don't do - don't do this.”

413 (Sins of the Father) – Oliver and Felicity decide to speed up their wedding:
Oliver: “Hey. You feeling any better?” 
Felicity: “I don't even know why I'm so upset. Doesn't every long-awaited father-daughter reunion end with the dad being taken away in handcuffs?” 
Oliver: “You don't have to be funny for me. You know that, right?” 
Felicity: “I know. And I know I did the right thing, but - the look on his face when he realized I had turned him in – it’s gonna haunt me for the rest of my life. And I can't help but think he doesn't even deserve that kind of remorse.” 
Oliver: “I think that remorse is a pretty clear indicator that you are a very different person than him.” 
Felicity: “Maybe Thea and I could make T-shirts. We could join a club.” 
Oliver: “Listen to me. Don't make the mistake of thinking that this thing with your dad is over. I can tell you from experience that closure does not come that easily.”
Felicity: “Speaking of closure, are you punishing yourself for betraying Malcolm?” 
Oliver: “Is that insane?”
Felicity: “Yes, but it's part of what makes you the man I love. John was right. You were faced with an impossible situation, and you found the best way out of it.” 
Oliver: “Will you marry me?”
Felicity (holding up hand with ring): “I think I already answered that question.” 
Oliver: “Thea's better, Andy's better, things are quiet on the Darhk front. (Kneels in front of her) I feel like this might be our window, and with everything that we have gone through over the past few months, I want you to tell me - why are we waiting?” 
Felicity: “Well, we'll have to plan it. (Sighs) Maybe just a small ceremony with a few of our friends and no caterers. My mom will hate that. (Winks at him) I'm in.” 
(They kiss.)

Edited February 27, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

413 deleted scene...

Arrow 4x13 Deleted Scene - Taiana and Oliver's conversation

(Hermandat)