"What?!?": In Which We Attempt to Address the WTFery of SPN Lore and Whatnot

[SueB]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

ETA:

IMO, if Ghuck was 100% against angels possessing humans, he would have made it 100% impossible which means even consent shouldn't work, if it was violating some metaphysical laws.

So if consent is the only thing that prevents it then why did Ghuck leave that option?  Consent is pretty malleable given that it doesn't really even require fully informed consent and it can be given under duress. Did he do it to test angels to make sure they didn't do it?

God and his shiny red apples.  I"m telling ya, it's ALL about Free Will.  And you can't have Free Will if the laws are so absolute that you can't do something God doesn't want you to do. 

Yes, I think he left them the power of occupying a human vessel with their consent.  It was forbidden except in unusual circumstances.  But Michael & his boys were WAAAAAAAY over the line throwing the Apocalypse early as it was.  What's a little "coercion" to the mix?  I think the Angels seriously disappointed God in the SPN verse.  He has stood by while they received the harshest of punishments.  They've lost their wings, he's left Michael rotting in the Cage -- when he CLEARLY could have gotten Michael out if he wanted to. Nope, I think God applies the "much is expected of those who are give much capability." (Also known as the Spiderman's "With great power comes great responsibility." And it's no coincidence, BTW, that most of our Superheros have Jewish authors... go ahead, google it... they are very Old Testament kind of heroes... that's just their cultural heritage).  And I think Dabb applied some of that same philosophical belief in Chuck/God.   

The value of consent:
- It says it's okay to allow a "higher power" (in this case, Angels) to use you for their work.
- It's not okay to take a persons' agency without permission
- The Angels need physical bodies (per Zachariah, Castiel, and Lucifer) to employ their power on earth.  
- While God didn't want them coming down and getting involved all the time, he wanted them to have the ability to do so.  So he set it up so they could.  They just abused the heck out of it in the last decade. 
- It was shown to be enlightened when Hannah gave back her vessel to Caroline.  It was part of the "protect humans" mission re-emergence after they literally fell from Heaven. You could ask yourself why God allowed Metatron to muck things up?  I'm thinking that 1) apathy, 2) comeuppance for the whole 'just following orders' mentality they had, and 3) to give them first hand knowledge of WHY humans are worth protecting. 

Again, I go back to "Source Material" for why SPN makes the choices they do.  With Dabb in charge, I'm not remotely surprised we are dabbling (OY, the pun, it hurts!) more into the mythology. Based on the S8 Mythology special feature, the consistent writer feedback (BEFORE he was Show Runner) saying that he is the "heart" of the show, and Dabb's own interviews.  

[ahrtee]

@SueB, you're faster on the keyboard than me.  I was in the middle of writing pretty much the exact same things, only less cogently and *much* more verbosely (is that a word?)  Thank you.

[SueB]

Just now, ahrtee said:

@SueB, you're faster on the keyboard than me.  I was in the middle of writing pretty much the exact same things, only less cogently and *much* more verbosely (is that a word?)  Thank you.

I'm pretty sure it's both "verbose" and "more verbose".  It's one of those weird words.

And dude, I'm pretty sure my picture is next to the definition of "verbose".  

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

The Angels need physical bodies (per Zachariah, Castiel, and Lucifer) to employ their power on earth.  

Just wanted to add that the angels needed vessels to even *communicate* with humans (other than select vessels) or they'd be leaving a string of people with burst eardrums and burned-out eyes.  

[catrox14]

Regardless of whatever the showrunners say about what they think is happening, or they say in interviews, or Andrew Dabb being the "Heart" of the show, or even what the actors say in interviews or at cons, the fact is that on screen is what is on screen.  I can use those outside things to try and understand what happened but it doesn't change what's been on screen.  (And boy is that annoying when it's things I really dislike or seems to not make sense IMO because I have to adopt a lot more head!canons to make some of it work for me LOL) 

I'm saying, though, IN SHOW,  AFAIK there has never been any clear explanation given on screen for the reason consent is needed other than RULES  That's all the angels have ever said. It's never been said that it's physical law of the universe that it cannot be done** That's more my point with Lucifer.  

I think there is room for an angel to possess a human without consent and I could see Lucifer making that choice because he's Satan and he sucks. IMO the main reason Lucifer himself never tried is that he wants humanity's subjugation. He wants them to say yes rather than take it by force. He wants them to bow to him. 

**ETA: Unless I missed the onscreen explanation beyond RULES which I may have. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think there is room for an angel to possess a human without consent and I could see Lucifer making that choice because he's Satan and he sucks. IMO the main reason Lucifer himself never tried is that he wants humanity's subjugation. He wants them to say yes rather than take it by force. He wants them to bow to him. 

**ETA: Unless I missed the onscreen explanation beyond RULES which I may have. 

Then why didn't he in S5-S12?  We saw he ASKED the POTUS before occupying.  So he was still applying consent then.

And Lucifer has said "I can't".  Not "I won't".  Everything (on-screen) points to they can't do it versus being a choice to NOT do it.  

In otherwords, some law of Angel-physics must be changed if he's going to start doing that.  Or are you suggesting Lucifer has been being polite all these years and simply following "rules" he could ignore?  I really struggle with that as an option, given his personality. 

[auntvi]

57 minutes ago, SueB said:

And it's no coincidence, BTW, that most of our Superheros have Jewish authors... go ahead, google it... they are very Old Testament kind of heroes... that's just their cultural heritage).  And I think Dabb applied some of that same philosophical belief in Chuck/God.

So you can think of Chuck and Metatron as menschen who are authors on earth?

OT slightly: Michael Chabon's "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay" is a (wonderful IMO) novel about the creation of the first comic books in 1940s New York - and also features at least one golem. And I bet Dabb read it, given his interest in mythic creatures.

[Diane]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think there is room for an angel to possess a human without consent and I could see Lucifer making that choice because he's Satan and he sucks. IMO the main reason Lucifer himself never tried is that he wants humanity's subjugation. He wants them to say yes rather than take it by force. He wants them to bow to him. 

**ETA: Unless I missed the onscreen explanation beyond RULES which I may have. 

I have never seen anything in the show that would suggest that an Angel doesn't have to give consent.  In Sympathy for the Devil:

LUCIFER: You need to invite me in.

LUCIFER: Because, contrary to popular belief, I don't lie. I don't need to. What I need...is you. Nick, I need you to say yes.

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

Then why didn't he in S5-S12?  We saw he ASKED the POTUS before occupying.  So he was still applying consent then.

And Lucifer has said "I can't".  Not "I won't".  Everything (on-screen) points to they can't do it versus being a choice to NOT do it.  

In otherwords, some law of Angel-physics must be changed if he's going to start doing that.  Or are you suggesting Lucifer has been being polite all these years and simply following "rules" he could ignore?  I really struggle with that as an option, given his personality. 

I agree with what SueB said too. The show hasn't given us an example that this is a rule that can be broken.

[catrox14]

IMO, Can't can be interpreted as being disallowed (like by a rule which can be broken, the risk is the consequence of breaking that rule)   vs unable because of some kind of literal physical inability to do so

I'm saying that I think there has been no clear evidence provided on screen that there are Angel-Law physics that prevent possession without consent.

It's Lucifer/The Devil/Satan.  I said he wants to subjugate them.  I'm saying directly that Lucifer has more power over a person's mind and soul by manipulating them into saying yes, because that means he has broken their will. He'll always have it over on them that he got them to say yes, 'You asked for this.  I didn't make you do anything. This is your choice' . 

In the case of Sam saying yes (or even if Dean had said yes to Michael ) IMO, neither case would have been broken will, but sacrifice to save the planet.  But for the average person who hasn't been chosen to save the universe, that gives Lucifer a leg up on them mentally and emotionally. 'You said yes to me of your own accord'.  IMO that holds more power than just taking.

Edited April 20, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Can't can be interpreted as being disallowed (like by a rule which can be broken, the risk is the consequence of breaking that rule)   vs unable because of some kind of literal physical inability to do so

I'm saying that I think there has been no clear evidence provided on screen that there are Angel-Law physics that prevent possession without consent.

It's Lucifer/The Devil/Satan.  I said he wants to subjugate them.  I'm saying directly that Lucifer has more power over a person's mind and soul by manipulating them into saying yes, because that means he has broken their will. He'll always have it over on them that he got them to say yes, 'You asked for this.  I didn't make you do anything. This is your choice' . 

In the case of Sam saying yes (or even if Dean had said yes to Michael ) IMO, neither case would have been broken will, but sacrifice to save the planet.  But for the average person who hasn't been chosen to save the universe, that gives Lucifer a leg up on them mentally and emotionally. 'You said yes to me of your own accord'.  IMO that holds more power than just taking.

So, are you saying he gets the "consent" but because it's "coercion", it's effectively 'possession without consent'?  Okay.  I see your point.  But since he still needs the "yes", he at least has to do something - vice just smoking in.  

[Diane]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Can't can be interpreted as being disallowed (like by a rule which can be broken, the risk is the consequence of breaking that rule)   vs unable because of some kind of literal physical inability to do so

I'm saying that I think there has been no clear evidence provided on screen that there are Angel-Law physics that prevent possession without consent.

It's Lucifer/The Devil/Satan.  I said he wants to subjugate them.  I'm saying directly that Lucifer has more power over a person's mind and soul by manipulating them into saying yes, because that means he has broken their will. He'll always have it over on them that he got them to say yes, 'You asked for this.  I didn't make you do anything. This is your choice' . 

In the case of Sam saying yes (or even if Dean had said yes to Michael ) IMO, neither case would have been broken will, but sacrifice to save the planet.  But for the average person who hasn't been chosen to save the universe, that gives Lucifer a leg up on them mentally and emotionally. 'You said yes to me of your own accord'.  IMO that holds more power than just taking.

IMO if we are going by what the show as said, Lucifer can not possess someone without their consent. That has been constant with in the show.  Every time he has possessed it has shown that he has had to get permission. Sam, Potus and Vince. I am probably missing some. It may be coercion, but it's still getting the person to say yes.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Diane

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Wow!  Thanks for all the wonderful responses everyone!  (I really didn't anyone would bother with my silly questions. :) )  

I'm torn on the angel consent issue.  I understand what @catrox14 is saying, and agree with that, but also that so far we haven't seen angel possession without consent on the show.  And they mostly keep reminding us that there has to be consent.  

However - as far as that goes re; Lucifer, at least two of his 'vessels' were inhabited without fully informed consent; Vince and Pres. Jeff.  Which leaves me to wonder if not-fully-informed-consent is still really considered 'consent' under Guck's 'law' (if there is some Law that exists?)  I mean, it at least shows that there's some wiggle-room on the consent thing.  I also wonder if the consent thing is a 'law' or not because just like Angel Free Will - they didn't have Free Will until they did.  So, I guess the show could go there if it wanted to.  

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

So, are you saying he gets the "consent" but because it's "coercion", it's effectively 'possession without consent'?  Okay.  I see your point.  But since he still needs the "yes", he at least has to do something - vice just smoking in.  

No I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that  in my scenario of angels not REALLY needing consent, one reason why Lucifer would do it that way vs just taking them is the power it gives him over them.  The power to mess with someone's head would be much more appealing to Lucifer than just taking them. IMO. 

But that's just me. 

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

However - as far as that goes re; Lucifer, at least two of his 'vessels' were inhabited without fully informed consent; Vince and Pres. Jeff.  Which leaves me to wonder if not-fully-informed-consent is still really considered 'consent' under Guck's 'law' (if there is some Law that exists?)  

I think that not-fully informed consent is still considered consent.  Gadreel and Sam wasn't fully informed and that counted.  At least Vince and Pres Jeff did know they were inviting an angel in, even if they did not know which angel. 

We've also seen that not fully-informed demon deals are allowed, because Ellie in Trial and Error said that Crowley didn't tell her anything about monsters or 10 years.

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm saying that I think there has been no clear evidence provided on screen that there are Angel-Law physics that prevent possession without consent.

Michael and Lucifer both really really really really really wanted to possess Dean and Sam.  I'm saying that's enough proof that they couldn't do it without permission when they both tried to get permission at least once earlier in the season.  And, we did see proof that Sam was able to cast out Gadreel, just by saying get out in his head.  He wasn't going to leave on his own.  He had already refused.  So, I disagree.  I think we have seen evidence.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

Gadreel and Sam wasn't fully informed and that counted.

I'd forgotten about Gadreel and Sam (and how could I do that, Right?! lol)  There's something just niggling at the back of my brain with this not-fully-informed consent deal.  I mean, if there were a Law that angels couldn't possess without consent, I would think that the intent of the law would be that the human was fully informed about what they were consenting.  But this not-fully-informed consent is like a back way in.  They're supposed to go up to the front door and knock and ask permission to enter and take your daughter on a date, but instead they snuck around the back and got the teenage girl to open the window.  Which makes it seem like to me that they've already bent the Law pretty severely.  If that's true (they've bent it pretty bad) is it such a big step to break it completely?

ETA: Demons don't surprise me about not fully informing - except Crowley with his big long contracts!  Lol.  Demons are supposed to be sneaky and double-dealing.

Edited April 21, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
erp! Demons. and typing in a hurry is not a good thing

[catrox14]

Another question I've always had is  given there are sigils for everything angel related like hide the boys  from angels and sigils to blast angels to wherever, if there is an Angel Physics component to possession, shouldn't there be a sigil that would prevent possession regardless of consent?

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I mean, if there were a Law that angels couldn't possess without consent, I would think that the intent of the law would be that the human was fully informed about what they were consenting.  But this not-fully-informed consent is like a back way in.  They're supposed to go up to the front door and knock and ask permission to enter and take your daughter on a date, but instead they snuck around the back and got the teenage girl to open the window.  Which makes it seem like to me that they've already bent the Law pretty severely.  If that's true (they've bent it pretty bad) is is just a big step to break it completely?

I"ve thought about this as well.  That's why I was thinking that maybe the punishment for possessing a human without consent is why the RULES exist at all; that the punishment is so severe that most of the angels stopped or found a way to bend the rules when Ghuck went AWOL.  

[ahrtee]

24 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'd forgotten about Gadreel and Sam (and how could I do that, Right?! lol)  There's something just niggling at the back of my brain with this not-fully-informed consent deal.  I mean, if there were a Law that angels couldn't possess without consent, I would think that the intent of the law would be that the human was fully informed about what they were consenting.  But this not-fully-informed consent is like a back way in.  They're supposed to go up to the front door and knock and ask permission to enter and take your daughter on a date, but instead they snuck around the back and got the teenage girl to open the window.  Which makes it seem like to me that they've already bent the Law pretty severely.  If that's true (they've bent it pretty bad) is is just a big step to break it completely?

ETA: Demons don't surprise me about not fully informing - except Crowley with his big long contracts!  Lol.  Demons are supposed to be sneaky and double-dealing.

I don't think full disclosure even occurs to the angels most of the time, because if you're going to a devout person and saying, "hi, I'm an angel!  Can I use your body for a while?" they probably won't even ask what for, because they'll just assume it's for something good.   Remember that Buddy Boyle's group had people lining up to be angel vessels, even when they weren't suitable and exploded.  I think among angels it had always been considered an honor to be a vessel, and it wasn't until recently--with more and more angels on earth and having to fight over vessels--that they had to get more "creative."  And it probably wasn't till the shadier angels with ulterior motives started needing vessels to do things that aren't at all honorable (killing all angels and their vessels from a rival group?) that they started to deliberately get sneakier about it.  Lucifer, of course, would always be sneaky, because he always has ulterior motives.  

But being sneaky and finding a way around rules is not exactly the same as breaking them outright (at least, not in a legal sense.)  It depends on what the rules are, and  how carefully they're written.  There are always loopholes to be exploited.  It may not be the meaning of the law, but it can still follow the letter.  So, in your example, imagine a house with all the windows and doors locked and bolted from the inside with unbreakable padlocks.  The legal (and moral) way would be to knock on the door and ask permission to enter, and the father may ask your intentions.  If he does, you can be honest or you can lie (or not give a full answer) and still be admitted.  Or instead you can call the teenage girl and get her to open a window in the back and come out on her own.  If she does, all the unbreakable locks and bolts in the world don't matter.  They're still in place, and you still can't open them or break them on your own, but you'll still have your date.  

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I"ve thought about this as well.  That's why I was thinking that maybe the punishment for possessing a human without consent is why the RULES exist at all; that the punishment is so severe that most of the angels stopped or found a way to bend the rules when Ghuck went AWOL.  

Hmmm...well, punishment isn't why rules exist; punishment exists because of the rules.  

Besides, I don't know who would be handing out punishments at all right now, since all the archangels are gone and Chuck is out of the picture.   But angels are still asking permission.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Besides, I don't know who would be handing out punishments at all right now, since all the archangels are gone and Chuck is out of the picture.   But angels are still asking permission.  

It's Ghuck. He can theoretically pop back in at anytime to mete out punishment.

 

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Hmmm...well, punishment isn't why rules exist; punishment exists because of the rules.  

I don't think that is really entirely the case.

Let's say a parent advises  a child to not do something but doesn't expressly forbid the child from that action.  Said child does that thing anyway resulting in severe consequences to the child and others. At that point, the parent decides to punish the child for ignoring the advice. And then implements a RULE to prevent any further child from doing that same thing. 

It's now a rule when it wasn't before.

So IMO scenario,  there is no particular punishment required because most of the angels took Ghuck's advice. One angel goes rogue and decides to possess a human without permission.  Ghuck learns of this, decides to punish the angel with death or something else horrible as an example to the other angels. And then invokes the RULES.

[trxr4kids]

Okay so Dagon(sp?) could just melt the Colt, does that make Azazel the worst YED, sorry prince of hell<eye roll> ever? Why didn't he melt it once the gate was open before he was shot, was he feeling suicidal? 

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Okay so Dagon(sp?) could just melt the Colt, does that make Azazel the worst YED, sorry prince of hell<eye roll> ever? Why didn't he melt it once the gate was open before he was shot, was he feeling suicidal? 

I have more of an issue that he left a bullet in it. Surely it would work as a key without being loaded. 

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Okay so Dagon(sp?) could just melt the Colt, does that make Azazel the worst YED, sorry prince of hell<eye roll> ever? Why didn't he melt it once the gate was open before he was shot, was he feeling suicidal? 

No, he was being a typical overconfident Supernatural villain who, instead of being a survivor, he decided it was more important to monologue to Dean about how awesome he was. TBH, I don't think Dagon destroyed it because she herself was scared of it, but because it was a threat to Kelly and the Devil spawn.

Edited April 28, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

No, he was being a typical overconfident Supernatural villain who, instead of being a survivor, he decided it was more important to monologue to Dean about how awesome he was. TBH, I don't think Dagon destroyed it because she herself was scared of it, but because it was a threat to Kelly and the Devil spawn.

I wonder if the devil spawn is killable by the Colt?  If Nephilim are more powerful than angels, and Lucifer is immune and Spawn is Lucifer's Nephilim offspring, wouldn't that mean in an a +b = c way that the spawn would be immune also.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I wonder if the devil spawn is killable by the Colt?  If Nephilim are more powerful than angels, and Lucifer is immune and Spawn is Lucifer's Nephilim offspring, wouldn't that mean in an a +b = c way that the spawn would be immune also.

No, I don't think the Colt would kill the nephillim, but it should kill Kelly and the baby isn't yet born. Although, I guess the fetus can probably just bring Kelly back to life. Still though, I don't think Dagon saw the gun as a personal threat, just like Yellow Eyes didn't.

[trxr4kids]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I don't think Dagon destroyed it because she herself was scared of it, but because it was a threat to Kelly and the Devil spawn.

Except would it be?

 

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I wonder if the devil spawn is killable by the Colt?  If Nephilim are more powerful than angels, and Lucifer is immune and Spawn is Lucifer's Nephilim offspring, wouldn't that mean in an a +b = c way that the spawn would be immune also.

Exactly, it makes no sense. But you know Ditty always says logic and Supernatural don't mix well, so there's that.

[trxr4kids]

I was thinking about the whole demon blood thing and thought about how they're just corrupted souls who look like clouds of smoke, they don't have blood of their own so how does being possessed change the hosts blood from human to demon. But then I thought it must be like if you smoke, the stuff from cigarettes (don't know or care to look it up, I just know it's bad) gets in your bloodstream and since demons smoke into the host, the host is essentially smoking, which led me to wonder how long after possession would you still have traces of demon in your blood?

Anyway that led me to think about demon eye color and I thought well I guess black makes sense because of the 'whole eyes are the windows to the soul' thing but what's up with yellow, red and white eyes?

Then I figured being possessed by a prince of hell causes some weird demonic jaundice hence the yellow eyes. I'm thinking the red eyes of crossroads demons is explainable as some severe form of demonic eye irritation from a combination of going back and forth between hell and earth constantly and hanging out at dusty old crossroads. I got nothing for white eyes though.

Also thinking about hell princes and crossroad kings made me try to imagine what coronation ceremonies in hell would be like. That brought me back around to why I'm procrastinating in the first which is that I hate to go grocery shopping and I have to go 15 minutes ago now. Since the grocery store is my own personal hell I've decided that while I'm there I'm just going to pretend that the unsupervised and/or misbehaving children are part of the coronation ceremony for the checker I will inevitably get.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

I was thinking about the whole demon blood thing and thought about how they're just corrupted souls who look like clouds of smoke, they don't have blood of their own so how does being possessed change the hosts blood from human to demon. But

I've often wondered how you shoot smoke with the Colt, or stab it with Ruby's knife.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I've often wondered how you shoot smoke with the Colt, or stab it with Ruby's knife.

I've always figured the  warding/spells/sigils attached to the knife and Colt bullets are what actually kills the demons, and the knife and bullets are just the delivery method to let the warding/sigils/spells through meatsuit to the demon inside.

[Katy M]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this, but I watched Devil's Trap yesterday, and it just made me so mad again, over the depowering of demons.  The demon comes and barrels into Sam.  Dean runs over and kicks him in the face, and the demon just kind of looks up at him, like "what's your point" and flings him across the parking lot.  Nowadays, Sam and Dean can just walk up to a demon and lightly slap them in their face and they're reduced to a quivering mass.  Yes, I'm exaggerating.  But, when did Sam and Dean get stronger than all the monsters?  It's ridiculous.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, I'm exaggerating.

::snort:: What would this site be without hyperbole? ;)

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

::snort:: What would this site be without hyperbole? ;)

Hyperboleless?

[Airmid]

8 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't know if this is the right place to post this, but I watched Devil's Trap yesterday, and it just made me so mad again, over the depowering of demons.  The demon comes and barrels into Sam.  Dean runs over and kicks him in the face, and the demon just kind of looks up at him, like "what's your point" and flings him across the parking lot.  Nowadays, Sam and Dean can just walk up to a demon and lightly slap them in their face and they're reduced to a quivering mass.  Yes, I'm exaggerating.  But, when did Sam and Dean get stronger than all the monsters?  It's ridiculous.

Honestly, try the bitterness thread. It's something I'm bitter about and it would fit in well over there.

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Hyperboleless?

I go with 'less fun'. :)

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Hyperboleless?

Hee! Well played. Very well played! ;)

[catrox14]

Random questions:

Does Dean still use the EMF detector he made from the walkman? If not, does anyone know what happened to it?

Where is John's journal? I hope it's in Mary's belongings!

Edited June 3, 2017 by catrox14

[JanetWaldo]

Since no one else has answered...

I think Mary still has John's journal.  At least, that was the last I remember seeing it.

I have no idea on the EMF-walkman.  Maybe they used the parts of it to make the two newer ones.  :D

[trxr4kids]

I think I was reading S9 comments which prompted me to wonder about the whole angel grace residue left inside a vessel the other day but hadn't got around to posting about it until now, sorry if we've covered this and I don't recall. Why did Sam only have Gadreel grace, shouldn't he also have had some Lucifer leftovers? How would they stay separate or did they just mix? Wouldn't there be side effects? That means Claire has some bits of Castiel in her, could they use it to maybe help locate the rest of it and resurrect him? The potus still has Lucifer bits presumably, if they could get cooperation maybe they could use it to locate Lucifer thereby finding Mary since they went into the rift together.

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I think I was reading S9 comments which prompted me to wonder about the whole angel grace residue left inside a vessel the other day but hadn't got around to posting about it until now, sorry if we've covered this and I don't recall. Why did Sam only have Gadreel grace, shouldn't he also have had some Lucifer leftovers? How would they stay separate or did they just mix? Wouldn't there be side effects? That means Claire has some bits of Castiel in her, could they use it to maybe help locate the rest of it and resurrect him? The potus still has Lucifer bits presumably, if they could get cooperation maybe they could use it to locate Lucifer thereby finding Mary since they went into the rift together.

I'm going with the theory that it degrades fairly quickly.  They were looking for Gadreel the episode after he left Sam's body, not years after.  And, don't forget, they didn't actually get enough grace out of Sam. Cas said that getting enough would probably kill him.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Katy M

[trxr4kids]

14 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm going with the theory that it degrades fairly quickly.  They were looking for Gadreel the episode after he left Sam's body, not years after.  And, don't forget, they didn't actually get enough grace out of Sam. Cas said that getting enough would probably kill him.

I could go with that if it wasn't for them going on about the power of the soul in S6. It seems like the grace would stay powered by the soul, like when Cas used Bobby's for a charge up. Balthazar also was buying souls to use as power and Death also said something about them being power. 

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I could go with that if it wasn't for them going on about the power of the soul in S6. It seems like the grace would stay powered by the soul, like when Cas used Bobby's for a charge up. Balthazar also was buying souls to use as power and Death also said something about them being power. 

I'm not sure what the connection is.  Grace isn't a soul.  I don't think see why a soul would power up grace when grace is more powerful.  Cas said that the grace, or more specifically, the piece of the angel left behind was fading each time he healed him.  Now, obviously, most former angel vessels aren't being angel healed for something.  But, if healing makes it fade, I would think just regular healthy cell regeneration might do the same.

[trxr4kids]

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm not sure what the connection is.  Grace isn't a soul.  I don't think see why a soul would power up grace when grace is more powerful.  

In S6 they said souls were the most powerful thing in the universe and Cas used Bobby's soul to power/recharge his grace up after the time travel thing, I can't remember the ep name, the one with Samuel Colt and the pheonix. 

[Katy M]

Just now, trxr4kids said:

In S6 they said souls were the most powerful thing in the universe and Cas used Bobby's soul to power/recharge his grace up after the time travel thing, I can't remember the ep name, the one with Samuel Colt and the pheonix. 

I forgot about that.  But, I still think my healing analogy stands.  If Cas healing Sam was making the grace fade, then (in a longer period of time) normal, healthy cell regeneration ought to do the same thing.  And, my other point of it being apparently very difficult to get enough also stands.  They're not going to kill Sam or Claire to get grace for location spells.

[trxr4kids]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, I still think my healing analogy stands.  If Cas healing Sam was making the grace fade, then (in a longer period of time) normal, healthy cell regeneration ought to do the same thing

But Cas was using grace to heal Sam it wasn't Sam's immune system. It seems like if the immune system saw grace as a threat or maybe anomaly to rid the body of grace healing wouldn't work at all since the body would fight it. IDK, now I'm even more confused by grace bits, lol. : )

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

But Cas was using grace to heal Sam it wasn't Sam's immune system. It seems like if the immune system saw grace as a threat or maybe anomaly to rid the body of grace healing wouldn't work at all since the body would fight it. IDK, now I'm even more confused by grace bits, lol. : )

Antibiotics heal. They stay in the system for a short time.  But they eventually pass out of the system.  How's that? 

[trxr4kids]

Just now, Katy M said:

Antibiotics heal. They stay in the system for a short time.  But they eventually pass out of the system.  How's that? 

Antibiotics only fight bacteria which the immune system also fights, so in a way it's just giving your immune system a boost. If your immune system accepts grace as a healing agent which has been shown, why would it cause it to degrade over time? I know the real answer is show logic but I'm just enjoying my random musings lol.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

That means Claire has some bits of Castiel in her, could they use it to maybe help locate the rest of it and resurrect him? The potus still has Lucifer bits presumably, if they could get cooperation maybe they could use it to locate Lucifer thereby finding Mary since they went into the rift together.

Well, just on the practical side (aside from whether there's any grace left) I don't think grace can be used to resurrect an angel (I don't think it's like cloning :) )  Also, I'm pretty sure the rift is somewhere outside of our normal time/space, so I don't think a location spell would work there.  But that's JMO.  

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Antibiotics heal. They stay in the system for a short time.  But they eventually pass out of the system.  How's that? 

Nicks' vessel couldn't stand the power of an archangel for long, yet seraphims can live in a human vessel nearly indefinitely and they are able to heal their vessels up to a point. So it seems to me the power of grace must have something to do with it? Or no?

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Nicks' vessel couldn't stand the power of an archangel for long, yet seraphims can live in a human vessel nearly indefinitely and they are able to heal their vessels up to a point. So it seems to me the power of grace must have something to do with it? Or no?

Yes, I absolutely think the power of grace while your possessed keeps you alive, young and healed.  But, we were discussing my theory that the "leftover" grace degrades or disappears over time.  That it doesn't stay in you, ready to be extracted for location spells indefinitely.

[trxr4kids]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, we were discussing my theory that the "leftover" grace degrades or disappears over time. 

But I think since grace can recharge with soul power it wouldn't dissipate like an antibiotic after the prescription was finished. It would be more logical for it to increase in strength, like if you took increasingly stronger antibiotics until you stopped or in this case until the grace was removed.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, I absolutely think the power of grace while your possessed keeps you alive, young and healed.  But, we were discussing my theory that the "leftover" grace degrades or disappears over time.  That it doesn't stay in you, ready to be extracted for location spells indefinitely.

I understand that was the conversation. My point which I didn't really make well at all, lol, is that grace is the life force of an angel, so wouldn't it more or less want to stay safe inside a vessel unless the vessel expels it?

Which is why I never understood why there had to be grace extraction at all. Why couldn't Sam have just kicked out the remaining grace? That whole thing didn't make much sense to me at all.

[Katy M]

20 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

But I think since grace can recharge with soul power it wouldn't dissipate like an antibiotic after the prescription was finished. It would be more logical for it to increase in strength, like if you took increasingly stronger antibiotics until you stopped or in this case until the grace was removed.

It's not complete grace, though.  It's residual grace.  So, while I, alive, use many things to stay alive and be regenerated, etc, once I die, these same elements work in my decomposition (I assume), we're really veering away from my very small area of expertise.

 

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I understand that was the conversation. My point which I didn't really make well at all, lol, is that grace is the life force of an angel, so wouldn't it more or less want to stay safe inside a vessel unless the vessel expels it?

Which is why I never understood why there had to be grace extraction at all. Why couldn't Sam have just kicked out the remaining grace? That whole thing didn't make much sense to me at all.

Can grace want something?  What is grace outside of an angel?  Do we know?  Sam didn't kick out the grace.  He kicked out the angel.  Grace doesn't seem to have a will of its own.  Though it degraded (which may or may not strengthen my point, so I'll leave that alone), Cas borrowed grace, but he didn't seem to take on any of the attributes or personality traits. of the donating angel.

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

In S6 they said souls were the most powerful thing in the universe and Cas used Bobby's soul to power/recharge his grace up after the time travel thing, I can't remember the ep name, the one with Samuel Colt and the pheonix. 

I have a little analogy, lets see if this works: think of grace as pure energy contained inside of rechargeable batteries [an angel]. The vessel is a device--with it's own power source--that's been connected to the batteries. Now, when you disconnect the batteries [angel] from the device [vessel], there's there is a little bit of energy [grace] left behind that eventually will dissipate, but it's just pure energy; it can't recharge on it's own it needs to be inside the battery [angel] to do that.

Furthermore, for grace to recharge, they have to be inside the proper angel or else the batteries explode and ruin both the angel and the grace.

ETA: Also, think of the independent power source [the soul] as DC power and grace being AC power. The device is designed to use both AC and DC power, but not designed for one to interact with the other.

Edited September 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot