S04.E12: Unchained

[Delphi]

I doubt Felicity would be like, "yeah, sorry about Thea, but he got me shot so obviously we can't use Darhk even though he might possibly have a really convenient cure that she needs. "

[bijoux]

It's still primarily idiotic in my book. I think it was supposed to be a reflection of Oliver's desperation, but why would he believe Darhk would come through? And as I said, GA literally has nothing to offer to trade. He's more of a gnat in Darhk's book so far than a serious nemesis. [voice modulator]Give me the cure![/voice modulator] Cue Darhk's befuddled expression. Why would I? That's all the potential meeting came down to. No wonder it didn't happen, because it would have led nowhere. 

[Guest]

I don't see Oliver as a villain or a horrible human being. He's made stupid decisions and has done some horrible things but I don't think he's the awful person he's being painted as here. 

 

And wanting to make a deal with the man who paralyzed Felicity just shows the desperate lengths he's willing to go to just to save someone he loves. His family is everything to him. It would be a dumb idea because you'd know that DD would want something in return, but Oliver makes dumb decisions all the time. I see it as a flaw rather than evidence that he's a garbage human. Nope. (That title goes to Samantha.)

 

And I know people are extremely upset about Oliver lying to Felicity. I don't like it myself. It's so contrived and pointless. But in the midst of that lie he's been a supportive and caring partner to Felicity. He didn't care when Felicity lied to him throughout the summer (different lies, I know, but still a lie) and he took everything she shouted at him when she was struggling with trying to find Ray and not wanting to lose herself in him. When you remove the lie, O/F are fantastic together in all ways and they clearly love each other so much.

 

I have to be honest, I'm not sure why anyone would want to watch a show when they clearly hate the lead. I mean, Ray's not even a lead on Legends but I hate him enough not to watch that show. LOL.

[AyChihuahua]

I doubt Felicity would be like, "yeah, sorry about Thea, but he got me shot so obviously we can't use Darhk even though he might possibly have a really convenient cure that she needs. "

I did not say one single thing about Felicity's thought process. I said that Oliver's willingness to work with the man who JUST paralyzed Felicity seems more than dumb to me. It's just S3 ANYTHING FOR THEA all over again.

[Delphi]

I think we all agree that its stupid. I also like the idea that Oliver is so desperate that he would take that step. I just don't think it makes him a horrible person.

As always ymmv, but last season I completely understood Oliver going to extreme lengths to save Thea. I got it then, I get it now. Keeping Thea safe is the most important thing to him since Moira and Robert can't.

[AyChihuahua]

It's still primarily idiotic in my book. I think it was supposed to be a reflection of Oliver's desperation, but why would he believe Darhk would come through? And as I said, GA literally has nothing to offer to trade. He's more of a gnat in Darhk's book so far than a serious nemesis. [voice modulator]Give me the cure![/voice modulator] Cue Darhk's befuddled expression. Why would I? That's all the potential meeting came down to. No wonder it didn't happen, because it would have led nowhere. 

Sure, it wasn't going anywhere, but he still wanted to ask DD for his help. His tendency to buddy up with supervillains is a bit off-putting to me. Not sure why that is controversial.

As always ymmv, but last season I completely understood Oliver going to extreme lengths to save Thea. I got it then, I get it now. Keeping Thea safe is the most important thing to him since Moira and Robert can't.

At this point I want Thea in the grave, because I'm so incredibly tired of this constantly repeated storyline.

[bijoux]

Sure, it wasn't going anywhere, but he still wanted to ask DD for his help. His tendency to buddy up with supervillains is a bit off-putting to me. Not sure why that is controversial.

 

I don't see it as controversial. I just don't share your opinion in this instance. Although I can't and won't contradict you on it being off-putting. It is and I wish the writers would find another trick. Or at least have it be a part of the plan. God help me, but even teaming up with Malcolm last season, downright insane as it was, was based in some skewed logic.

[Chaser]

It's funny. I don't think the deal made with Ra's and the attempted deal with DD is that terrible. It's desperation. It's short-sighted.

 

My issue is the deals made with Malcolm.  At least with Ra's and DD, they aren't forgetting they are villains. I rage when I think about all that Malcolm has done and the fact that he is still treated as human.

[Starfish35]

Yeah Malcolm is the worst. The idea of him giving Oliver a lecture about allowing Thea to make her own choices after what he did to her last season..... Lol just wow. I can't even.

[EmeraldArcher]

I agree with those who think Samantha is a horrible human being for all that she's done and for her stupid demand, but I don't let Oliver off the hook for being equally horrible for his part in it. He chose to lie when he didn't have to. He chose to lie out of cowardice even when Felicity gave him the partnership speech and the wonderful opening to share with her whatever it was that was bothering him. His lie then and his continued lies now prove that he's a coward. Heroes can't be cowards; they're dichotomous. 

 

We can complain about stupid plot for plot's sake, but the characterization we're given is that Oliver shook the hand of and thanked the man who was responsible for Thea's plight. Thea is only near death again because of Malcolm. Period. So, how desperate can he be to save her when he hasn't been bothered to protect her? Malcolm is responsible for EVERYTHING, and Oliver shook his hand and thanked him.

 

Oliver has witnessed Damien Darhk kill many people, attack children, put his loved ones in a gas chamber, and cause Felicity's paralysis. I just don't get how he could be so desperate to save Thea that he would think to ask for help from the man who has already tried to kill her in a gas chamber. 

 

How can someone who claims to love these two women contemplate working or dealing with the same evil villains who harmed them in the first place? That's pretty reprehensible to me. 

[EmeraldArcher]

I don't think it's heinous at all. It's not like he's trying to make a deal with Darhk for some sweet real estate or something. Thea is literally dying from something that Darhk helped get rid of for a time, and he wants to do what he can to keep her alive. As far as they know there isn't anyone else who can help her.

But, Darhk didn't help get rid of it, which implies intention. Darhk clearly intended to kill Thea in that scene; that something went funky due to the LP doesn't change the fact that he would have killed her.

 

Obviously, I meant that trying to make a deal with Darhk to save Thea was heinous. 

[apinknightmare]

We can complain about stupid plot for plot's sake, but the characterization we're given is that Oliver shook the hand of and thanked the man who was responsible for Thea's plight. Thea is only near death again because of Malcolm. Period. So, how desperate can he be to save her when he hasn't been bothered to protect her? Malcolm is responsible for EVERYTHING, and Oliver shook his hand and thanked him.

 

 

How exactly is he supposed to protect her at this point? Thea is willingly keeping this man in her life. She thinks of him as her father - and yeah, Oliver has done some dumb shit to keep her from acting out against him, and yet, there he is in the middle of Thea and Laurel's apartment, with Thea calling him Dad. They have a messed up relationship, but it's one Thea seems to want to continue for whatever reason. And yes, Malcolm is ultimately responsible for Thea being targeted by Ra's, but Oliver's the one who put her in the Pit (against Malcolm's wishes, when he was not being an evil dickhead for once). So I get why he feels some need to fix this particular thing. 

 

 

Oliver has witnessed Damien Darhk kill many people, attack children, put his loved ones in a gas chamber, and cause Felicity's paralysis. I just don't get how he could be so desperate to save Thea that he would think to ask for help from the man who has already tried to kill her in a gas chamber.

 

Why wouldn't he ask him for help when he is literally the only person who seems to be able to help her? She can either kill someone (which she doesn't want to do), get help from Damien (which she didn't want and Oliver ultimately respected), or die. He went for the only option he could help with, and then deferred to her wishes. 

But, Darhk didn't help get rid of it, which implies intention. Darhk clearly intended to kill Thea in that scene; that something went funky due to the LP doesn't change the fact that he would have killed her.

 

Obviously, I meant that trying to make a deal with Darhk to save Thea was heinous. 

 

I know what you meant. 

 

I'm not claiming that Darhk tried to help her because he's a super great guy, but by trying to suck the life out of her, he got rid of her Pit problem - which is what *I* meant. 

[AyChihuahua]

Obviously, I meant that trying to make a deal with Darhk to save Thea was heinous.

Maybe the deal he would make could be like when he joined the evil league of evil last season. He could agree to ally with DD, making the lesson he'd supposedly learned in Season 3, which was reiterated a couple months ago when Felicity convinced him NOT to ally with DD and instead to fight DD as a good guy...entirely forgotten.

 

Man the writing on this show is bad.

[bijoux]

DD wanted Oliver Queen. He cares diddly squat about GA.

[AyChihuahua]

DD wanted Oliver Queen. He cares diddly squat about GA.

You don't think if DD was like "Yeah, I've got the cure, but I don't want anything from you" that OQ wouldn't immediately try to make a deal as Oliver Queen?

 

Although, doesn't it seem relatively likely that DD knows OQ is GA? But, does OQ know that DD knows? Who knows.

Edited February 5, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[EmeraldArcher]

How exactly is he supposed to protect her at this point? Thea is willingly keeping this man in her life. She thinks of him as her father - and yeah, Oliver has done some dumb shit to keep her from acting out against him, and yet, there he is in the middle of Thea and Laurel's apartment, with Thea calling him Dad. They have a messed up relationship, but it's one Thea seems to want to continue for whatever reason. And yes, Malcolm is ultimately responsible for Thea being targeted by Ra's, but Oliver's the one who put her in the Pit (against Malcolm's wishes, when he was not being an evil dickhead for once). So I get why he feels some need to fix this particular thing. 

 

 

Why wouldn't he ask him for help when he is literally the only person who seems to be able to help her? She can either kill someone (which she doesn't want to do), get help from Damien (which she didn't want and Oliver ultimately respected), or die. He went for the only option he could help with, and then deferred to her wishes. 

 

I know what you meant. 

 

I'm not claiming that Darhk tried to help her because he's a super great guy, but by trying to suck the life out of her, he got rid of her Pit problem - which is what *I* meant. 

Oliver failed to protect Thea the many times he continued to force Malcolm on her.  When she found out that Malcolm knew Oliver was the Arrow, she was ready t walk away. When she found out about Malcolm drugging her to get her to kill Sara, she was ready to walk away. When she turned Malcolm over to the LoA, Oliver sure as hell didn't respect her wishes then--he went to Nanda Parbat to rescue Malcolm and forced him back on Thea. Sure, Malcolm and Thea have this strange relationship now, but Oliver influenced it by continuing to force Malcolm in Thea's life whenever she wanted to be done with him.

 

I can't use the word "help" and Darhk in the same sentence because semantics matter. Thea only discovered the effect Darhk had on her when he was trying to kill her; that doesn't qualify as help. Oliver knows that Darhk has now tried to kill his sister on multiple occasions. He has no reason to think that Darhk would willingly help. 

[bijoux]

Felicity wheeling herself into the lab like she was on fire and calling out Curtis Holt was really cute, wasn't it?

I wonder with all the sharing of sets and, one would assume, props, how come they didn't give Felicity Wells' chair from The Flash. That one was powered as far as I remember from the crossover.

[apinknightmare]

I can't use the word "help" and Darhk in the same sentence because semantics matter. Thea only discovered the effect Darhk had on her when he was trying to kill her; that doesn't qualify as help. Oliver knows that Darhk has now tried to kill his sister on multiple occasions. He has no reason to think that Darhk would willingly help. 

 

Then don't use the word "help." That was my wording - they used "get rid of the bloodlust" and "make what he did to her permanent." And Oliver didn't think that Darhk would willingly "get rid of the bloodlust" or "make what he did to her permanent," which is why he wanted to see if there was something he could've offered Darhk in return. 

 

You think Oliver being kind of desperate to make a deal to stop his sister from dying is terrible? Cool, I respect that. Personally, I think it would be kind of terrible if he knew there was a way to possibly get rid of the thing that was killing her and didn't at least want to make a deal for it. 

[AyChihuahua]

I wonder with all the sharing of sets and, one would assume, props, how come they didn't give Felicity Wells' chair from The Flash. That one was powered as far as I remember from the crossover.

I'm okay with Felicity not wanting an electric wheelchair. Smacks of permanence, plus she probably wants to be as active as she can. I do think the one she has looks incredibly uncomfortable, though. No back support at all.

[wonderwall]

I thought it was a well known fact that even though Oliver isn't generally a 'let the ends justify the means' kind of guy, when it comes to his family and the people he loves the most, he most definitely IS that kind of guy because that's when he starts to get desperate. And that is actually kind of a perfectly human response. 

 

Oliver is between a rock and a hard place right now, he either lets his sister (his one remaining family member, and a person who he would go through hell for) die, OR, he can consider making that deal...

 

It's just like Felicity in 3x23 when she started panicking and told Ray to save Oliver even though he was trying to save those thousands of people. Felicity had a HUMAN moment because all she could think of was saving her loved ones she didn't even begin to think of what would happen if Ray couldn't save the people of Starling. While we did see Felicity find another way, we don't KNOW what Oliver is going to do or whether or not he's going to make that deal...

 

I honestly don't understand this conversation... Because I remember this board loved Felicity saving Oliver and understood her moment of weakness, but now Oliver's a villain for having that same moment of desperation? Okay....

Edited February 5, 2016 by wonderwall

[kismet]

You don't think if DD was like "Yeah, I've got the cure, but I don't want anything from you" that OQ wouldn't immediately try to make a deal as Oliver Queen?

 

Although, doesn't it seem relatively likely that DD knows OQ is GA? But, does OQ know that DD knows? Who knows.

Well that would be a reusing of the s1 plot when OQ tried to buy the Vertigo via his Bratva contacts, but failed and then he went in as the Arrow to get it. So rinse, wash, repeat pattern continues. Slight different put principle remains.

 

At this point, if DD didn't put it together I would be shocked. OQ is basically lining up the dots for him. However, the writers may play the DD doesn't piece it together card for various reasons, most of which would be plot.

[Carrie Ann]

Whether to work with a villain like Damian Darkh is a callback to the conversation Diggle and Felicity had in season 3 when the team was deciding whether or not to work with Malcolm Merlyn.  This begs the question "Does the ends justify the means?" [...] Oliver will need to find another way without working with a supervillain.

 

The problem is that the writers screwed themselves over if they wanted to show that making deals/working with supervillains was the wrong choice last season, because ultimately doing so helped Oliver to save Thea, to survive himself, and to beat Ra's. There was no part of the way that storyline ended that left that up in the air or that made it clear that it was a mistake. There should have been! But there wasn't. So, yes, I think it would be super if Oliver had learned a valuable lesson about making deals with bad guys, but he didn't because in fact his experience taught him the opposite. Maybe he will learn it this season, and that would be excellent, because I hate Malcolm and am tired of his illogical presence on this show. And also because Oliver's still on a hero's journey; he's still making mistakes and isn't always a perfect hero. I don't think we're meant to think Oliver has reached self-actualization yet.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[tv echo]

One of the media reviewers pointed out that if Nyssa (and that woman who helped her escape) knew about the Lotus, than Malcolm as Ra's should've known about the Lotus as well.  So why didn't he tell Oliver that there's this magical lotus that can save Thea?

[AyChihuahua]

One of the media reviewers pointed out that if Nyssa (and that woman who helped her escape) knew about the Lotus, than Malcolm as Ra's should've known about the Lotus as well.  So why didn't he tell Oliver that there's this magical lotus that can save Thea?

STOP LOOKING BEHIND THE CURTAIN.

I honestly don't understand this conversation... Because I remember this board loved Felicity saving Oliver and understood her moment of weakness, but now Oliver's a villain for having that same moment of desperation? Okay....

That is a great point, that would be even better without snark.

 

How long was Oliver's moment of weakness? Felicity's was maybe ten seconds. Then she found another way.

Edited February 5, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[EmeraldArcher]

Thea is in her current state because Oliver was so desperate to save her last year. She is still (barely) living with the consequences of last year's desperate attempts to save her life. Last year he indebted himself to the man who killed her to save her by putting her in the LP. I can understand that type of desperation once, but not when last year's cure is killing her this year, and he's considering dealing with yet another super villain. Oliver's "anything it takes" attitude isn't honorable; heroes have lines they will not cross.   

 

I don't see any comparison between that and Felicity's being willing to save Oliver herself by flying Ray's suit--she didn't rely on any super villains and she didn't endanger anybody. She saved a life without compromising her values.

[bijoux]

He went to meet Darhk and got a message from Felicity that they had the location where The Calculator planted the bomb.

[apinknightmare]

I guess I'm just a little confused as to how Oliver somehow becomes a less terrible person by putting his own values above possibly saving his sister's life from the thing that's killing her, but it's definitely an interesting conversation. 

[wonderwall]

So basically Oliver is a terrible person because he's not letting his sister die? Shouldn't Oliver give Thea a chance to make that choice? Thea is dealing with the consequences of being in the pit, yes. But she also isn't killing herself because of it. I feel like if Thea couldn't handle it, she would've been like Sara in S2 and tried to kill herself, just like how some people who get really sick opt to be euthanized so they don't suffer. 

 

I just don't understand the mentality that Oliver should let his only remaining family member die. Given his history, given how fiercely he loves his sister, I don't see why anyone would think Oliver would simply give up.

 

I personally don't think that makes him a bad person. I think it would be terrible if he didn't at least try to save his sister from all the suffering she's been through.

 

And again, like I said, Felicity had a moment of desperation where she told Ray to save Oliver KNOWING that means he won't be able to save the lives of the people of Starling. She had a moment of tunnel vision where all she can think of is to save Oliver. Yeah, she didn't make a deal with the devil, but she did have a moment of weakness that, if she had it her way in that moment, could've risked thousands of lives. In the end Felicity FOUND another way... I don't understand why one isn't willing to see if Oliver can find another way or see how everything plays out... 

Edited February 6, 2016 by wonderwall

[kismet]

Felicity wheeling herself into the lab like she was on fire and calling out Curtis Holt was really cute, wasn't it?

I wonder with all the sharing of sets and, one would assume, props, how come they didn't give Felicity Wells' chair from The Flash. That one was powered as far as I remember from the crossover.

It was cute :) But I would like for them also to show how hard it is to sometimes get to places in a wc. It's great they mentioned the ramp or OQ can carry her around. But what about when she wants to go to the beach, or encounters a non-handicap accessible eatery? Or at least show the patience and strength it takes to be able to transfer your self from a wheelchair to another sitting surface unassisted. A benefit to FS's chair is it allows for her to easily transfer herself independently from her chair to another flat surface, if her injury allows it, which it seems like it might since she has fully use of her arms and relatively stable trunk/abdominal control. The lack of back support probably helps to engage her core, which is going to get used a lot more to maintain her mobility. But we really can't show those type of scenes because MG promised us FS would take this life-altering game-changer in stride no tears or depressing scenes after 411.

 

As for the choice of chair, I have a feeling they wanted to go for more authenticity. A lot of paralyzed people want to keep as much of their independence as possible. So a chair like Felicity has gives her the greatest level of mobility. It is also is easier to get the hang of moving around because it is lighter.

 

Electric wheelchairs are for people who lack the strength of the ability to self-propel the wheelchair. FS being relatively young and fit would probably want to maintain as much of her strength as possible. Its not to say she might not get an electric wheelchair at some point but I doubt anytime soon. Not that $$ is an issue for her, but most insurance only pay for one wheelchair for the person's lifetime or for like a 10y+ period. So any wheelchair chosen would consider the person daily needs and lifestyle. Electric wheelchairs also need to be charged and batteries replaced, so that may make her more dependent upon others. When the chair dies, the person is often unable to move it. Although with PT new battery invention perhaps they will put it in a wheelchair. Either way those chairs are heavy & big.

 

Also in the FLASH, I believe HG was using the chair to somehow recharge himself, which is probably why they had him in it for plot purposes. Also HG is navigating larger spaces, so perhaps he didn't want to self-propel all over the particle accelerator. Whereas, most of FS's spaces are small in size. On a cynical note, HG was faking his paralysis, so having to self-propel himself would be a strenuous activity he probably would not want to engage in on a daily basis, if he didn't have to. Plus most people who are able bodied, when they sit in wheelchair have a tendency to want to use their legs to get around, when it becomes tiresome and cumbersome to self-propel with only your arms/hands. It is not easy to navigate wheelchairs whether they are electric or self-propelled. I imagine HG, either probably got frustrated in a non-electric wheelchair and almost blew his cover once or twice. That will not be an issue with FS, since she is not faking it.

[Guest]

Sigh. Guess there's no escape from this.

 

*Panic moonwalks out of this thread too.*

[ComicFan777]

I just don't think that working with a supervillain should be Oliver's go-to move.  I think he needs to explore other options instead of jumping headfirst to work with a supervillian and thinking that is his only option.  Even Malcolm had said that he didn't even know if Damien could help at all.  Did Oliver try reaching out to John Constantine or Vixen before making this decision?  John Constantine might know of an alternative solution or he might know a colleague that would have an alternative solution.  Vixen's family also dealt with magic so she might know someone who knows someone to help.  I just didn't see him find another way before attempting to jump in bed with Damien Darkh. 

[Starfish35]

If I may, diverting from the current discussion for a moment, one thing that seemed to be missing from the discussion onscreen about getting DD's help was the issue of what that does to him. Thea knows that he had a rather bad reaction when he tried to...do whatever it is he does, and if I'm remembering correctly, she told Malcolm that. So why is no one mentioning that fact to Oliver, or stopping to think that, considering the effect on him, this would probably be the last favor he's interested in doing?

[apinknightmare]

I just don't think that working with a supervillain should be Oliver's go-to move.  I think he needs to explore other options instead of jumping headfirst to work with a supervillian and thinking that is his only option.  

 

I think that this is absolutely true. But in this particular instance, I don't blame him for jumping on it, since Thea actually told him first-hand that whatever happened when Darhk tried to suck the life out of her actually made her feel better. Seems natural to me that he'd go right to a known cure.

If I may, diverting from the current discussion for a moment, one thing that seemed to be missing from the discussion onscreen about getting DD's help was the issue of what that does to him. Thea knows that he had a rather bad reaction when he tried to...do whatever it is he does, and if I'm remembering correctly, she told Malcolm that. So why is no one mentioning that fact to Oliver, or stopping to think that, considering the effect on him, this would probably be the last favor he's interested in doing?

 

I guess because Oliver knowing that trying to kill Thea sucked the life out of Darhk is information that he can't have before episode 23!

[Starfish35]

I guess because Oliver knowing that trying to kill Thea sucked the life out of Darhk is information that he can't have before episode 23!

Of course. *facepalm*

[EmeraldArcher]

I think a more apt comparison is between Oliver and Laurel, not Oliver and Felicity.

 

Back when Laurel got that gleam in her eye and did whatever it took to save Sara*, we all blasted her because she did so knowing that Thea paid the price for Oliver's decision to save her. We all wondered how in the world Laurel could think that was a good idea, given that she saw Thea's blood lust and trauma.

 

Oliver is also now very aware of what the LP cure did to Thea. But, instead of learning the lesson that sometimes people pay dearly for his desperation, he contemplated yet another unknown cure in the hands of a super villain.  Thea shouldn't have to constantly pay the price of Oliver's desperation to save her. Oliver hasn't saved her life so much as prolong her agony. His continued interference is selfishly motivated.

 

From the very first flash forward this season, the lesson for Oliver seems to be that not everything is his fault. His teammates, including Thea, choose to live dangerous lives to fight to protect their city against the bad guys. He isn't respecting their choice if he turns to those very bad guys to save the people who have willingly sacrificed their lives to take them down.

 

*And I already know that you can't save someone who's been dead for a year, but I still think Laurel's actions are more similar to Oliver's than Felicity's. 

[dtissagirl]

I just feel super robbed of the scene of DD waiting and waiting and waiting, and the Green Arrow never showing up. Poor DD.

[kismet]

So basically Oliver is a terrible person because he let his sister die? Shouldn't Oliver give Thea a chance to make that choice? Thea is dealing with the consequences of being in the pit, yes. But she also isn't killing herself because of it. I feel like if Thea couldn't handle it, she would've been like Sara in S2 and tried to kill herself, just like how some people who get really sick opt to be euthanized so they don't suffer. 

 

I just don't understand the mentality that Oliver should let his only remaining family member die. Given his history, given how fiercely he loves his sister, I don't see why anyone would think Oliver would simply give up.

 

I personally don't think that makes him a bad person. I think it would be terrible if he didn't at least try to save his sister from all the suffering she's been through.

 

And again, like I said, Felicity had a moment of desperation where she told Ray to save Oliver KNOWING that means he won't be able to save the lives of the people of Starling. She had a moment of tunnel vision where all she can think of is to save Oliver. Yeah, she didn't make a deal with the devil, but she did have a moment of weakness that, if she had it her way in that moment, could've risked thousands of lives. In the end Felicity FOUND another way... I don't understand why one isn't willing to see if Oliver can find another way or see how everything plays out... 

I agree with your post.

 

It's important to not that neither did OQ make a deal with the devil. He went to talk with DD to see what offers could be made, to negotiate. Afterall, DD is a businessman supervillain. Remember DD was grateful that he saved his family not so long ago, so maybe he thought he could trade on that. It was a fact finding meeting with the potential of the deal. There was no magical signing of papers or agreements to do anything. But I do wonder what the convo would have been like.

 

I don't think OQ is more heinous because he wanted to consider what DD could potentially offer. However, I also agree with @bijoux, he really had nothing to offer DD and I imagine the price would be be steep. But OQ loves his sister and wants to save her from a death he helped set in motion. I can understand him thinking outside of the box. And making questionable dumb choices like approaching DD. But it also seems like a choice a lot of people would make, when faced with the death of a potential loved one. People make rather interesting decisions when faced with the question of how to best help an imminently dying loved one. Now depending upon what was in the fine print, then I would hold OQ to higher standard before he agrees to something. OQ is really bad at asking what the terms or conditions of the agreements are. So before he committed to anything, I would want him to consider the potential bad it could cause. Since DD does very bad things.

 

That being said, the moral of the story, is why isn't someone calling Constantine at least for advice on what's going on? Why didn't they just ask him in 305, like I think some people here suggested. People who know people in certain areas of specialties call people all the time for advice. It's really a gaping plot hole. Like whoever said it, they really didn't think this whole LP/Bloodlust TQ & SL comparison all the way through. Too much overlap and yet not enough fill the plot holes.

I just feel super robbed of the scene of DD waiting and waiting and waiting, and the Green Arrow never showing up. Poor DD.

I would have loved if he had some pastries or cupcakes waiting for him. Seriously, we were robbed a NM/DD snark scene :)

[wonderwall]

*And I already know that you can't save someone who's been dead for a year, but I still think Laurel's actions are more similar to Oliver's than Felicity's. 

 

This is where we'll agree to disagree. Laurel's actions were terrible because it wasn't about saving Sara, it was about bringing her back from the dead even though she knew Sara would be completely messed up. 

 

Felicity/Oliver's actions were about saving their loved ones.

 

IMO both are completely different scenarios. 

 

Regardless, should Thea continually pay the price for Oliver's desperation? No. But since Thea is still alive, is it wrong for Oliver to find a way to keep Thea alive AND heal her from everything she's going through? No. Thea never told Oliver just how bad her bloodlust is getting. Thea only told Laurel this and she then brushed it under the rug because Laurel sucks that way. But now that he knows Thea's suffering, I think he's not only going to try to keep her alive, but to find her a cure for everything. But that's just an assumption I've made. I'd rather see how everything plays out before jumping and Oliver a terrible person.

 

This brings up an interesting question, do you think Oliver would essentially be killing Thea if he doesn't do anything even though there's possibly a way? Because IMO I think that you  might as well give him a gun and make him shoot Thea if he's just going to sit around and do nothing.

[ComicFan777]

Felicity and Diggle had always advised Oliver to save loved ones, but not at the cost of his own soul - don't make deals with the devil.  Damien Darkh has already proven in 4x9 that he's the bad guy who doesn't follow through on deals (ie. he made a deal with Oliver to surrender himself for his loved ones, and DD ended up putting them all in the gas chamber).  Oliver already knows that he can make all the deals he wants with DD, but DD has already proven he doesn't follow through.

[apinknightmare]

His teammates, including Thea, choose to live dangerous lives to fight to protect their city against the bad guys. He isn't respecting their choice if he turns to those very bad guys to save the people who have willingly sacrificed their lives to take them down.

 

He actually did respect Thea's choice though - pretty sure that was the whole point of this storyline. Thea told him she didn't want Oliver owing Darhk, and didn't want him making that kind of deal for her, so he walked away from their meeting, and told Malcolm he was going to respect her wishes.

Edited February 5, 2016 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

I guess we'll see what this deal actually is... IMO I'm not a fan of jumping to conclusions before seeing what happens. We don't even know what Oliver's going to do. Right now he's still at the point of considering how to go about this problem. He hasn't made any decisions yet. So only time will tell. 

[EmeraldArcher]

 

This brings up an interesting question, do you think Oliver would essentially be killing Thea if he doesn't do anything even though there's possibly a way? Because IMO I think that you  might as well give him a gun and make him shoot Thea if he's just going to sit around and do nothing.

This line of thought makes me really uncomfortable. Refusing to compromise one's values by consorting with super villains is in no way equal to murdering in cold blood. 

He actually did respect Thea's choice though - pretty sure that was the whole point of this storyline. Thea told him she didn't want Oliver owing Darhk, and didn't want him making that kind of deal for her, so he walked away from their meeting, and told Malcolm he was going to respect her wishes.

It wasn't actually that tidy. He respected Malcolm's advice about respecting Thea's wishes, but he showed up to the meeting with Darhk. It was the imminent threat of the Calculator's bomb that made him leave when he did. 

 

And, at the end of the episode, he appeared to be contemplating aligning with Nyssa, so he wouldn't really be respecting Thea's choice to let her go.

[apinknightmare]

It wasn't actually that tidy. He respected Malcolm's advice about respecting Thea's wishes, but he showed up to the meeting with Darhk. It was the imminent threat of the Calculator's bomb that made him leave when he did. 

 

Thea's wishes were that he not make a deal with Darhk to save her. Oliver showed up to the meeting, and yes, he left because of the Calculator, but he didn't reschedule that meeting, did he? He told Malcolm he was going to respect her wishes about not making a deal with Darhk. Seems like he decided to do what Thea asked to me. 

 

 

And, at the end of the episode, he appeared to be contemplating aligning with Nyssa, so he wouldn't really be respecting Thea's choice to let her go.

 

Thea's choice wasn't to die, though. She doesn't want to kill people to sate her bloodlust, and she didn't want Oliver to make a deal with Damien. As far as she knew, those were her only two options other than dying, so dying was kind of a default due to lack of any other option. She doesn't even know about this Lotus, and she isn't able to comment on it, so I'm not judging Oliver for that.

Edited February 5, 2016 by apinknightmare

[nksarmi]

I don't see Oliver as a villain or a horrible human being. He's made stupid decisions and has done some horrible things but I don't think he's the awful person he's being painted as here. 

 

And wanting to make a deal with the man who paralyzed Felicity just shows the desperate lengths he's willing to go to just to save someone he loves. His family is everything to him. It would be a dumb idea because you'd know that DD would want something in return, but Oliver makes dumb decisions all the time. I see it as a flaw rather than evidence that he's a garbage human. Nope. (That title goes to Samantha.)

 

And I know people are extremely upset about Oliver lying to Felicity. I don't like it myself. It's so contrived and pointless. But in the midst of that lie he's been a supportive and caring partner to Felicity. He didn't care when Felicity lied to him throughout the summer (different lies, I know, but still a lie) and he took everything she shouted at him when she was struggling with trying to find Ray and not wanting to lose herself in him. When you remove the lie, O/F are fantastic together in all ways and they clearly love each other so much.

 

I have to be honest, I'm not sure why anyone would want to watch a show when they clearly hate the lead. I mean, Ray's not even a lead on Legends but I hate him enough not to watch that show. LOL.

 

I read a book series where I really didn't like the main character and wanted to smack her on a regular basis.  I guess it's a form of insanity lol.

 

I can watch Arrow and enjoy Oliver as long as I don't think real hard about it.  Because when I start thinking about - I start realizing how dumb, dumb, really dumb Oliver is and the shitty things he has done because of that stupidity and I end up really disliking him. 

[nksarmi]

I think we all agree that its stupid. I also like the idea that Oliver is so desperate that he would take that step. I just don't think it makes him a horrible person.

As always ymmv, but last season I completely understood Oliver going to extreme lengths to save Thea. I got it then, I get it now. Keeping Thea safe is the most important thing to him since Moira and Robert can't.

 

The problem with season three was that Oliver was a stupid ass in his attempts to keep Thea safe.  He has NO reason - none - to believe that Ra's would still kill Thea if he turned Malcolm over to the LoA as Sara's murderer.  Where do we think Malcolm learned about a herb that would let him mind-rape his daughter if not in the League?  Ra's would have believed him and Nyssa would have wanted Malcolm dead - not Thea. 

 

But the writers had to get their Oliver duals Ra's and dies plot, so that's what we got.  Oliver the idiot for plot.

 

Ok whatever.  Fast forward to Thea turning Malcolm over to the LoA.  So what does Oliver do?  He goes and rescues Malcolm to save Thea's soul!  WTF Oliver!  I will never, ever, ever get over this.

 

Then what does Oliver do in the name of ANYTHING FOR THEA!?!?!?  He makes Thea take care of her evil father who mind-raped her into killing her friend!

 

Oliver SUCKS as a big brother!

 

So by the time he gets around to "anything for Thea" of the LP - I have no sympathy because it's his idiot, stupid ass who put her in danger to begin with.  And then he makes a deal with the devil who put them both in that situation to save her!

 

And why does Oliver do all of this?  Outside of the writers desire to put Oliver in the LoA?  He does all of this because he doesn't trust his team enough to work with them to figure things out.  He just trusts Malcolm and works with him - over and over and over again.

 

So yea Oliver's need to work with evil people to save people he loves only happens because he is an idiot who is easily manipulated by an evil man.

[Guest]

I read a book series where I really didn't like the main character and wanted to smack her on a regular basis.  I guess it's a form of insanity lol.

 

I can watch Arrow and enjoy Oliver as long as I don't think real hard about it.  Because when I start thinking about - I start realizing how dumb, dumb, really dumb Oliver is and the shitty things he has done because of that stupidity and I end up really disliking him. 

 

Hey, look. I know Oliver has made some shitty mistakes and done plenty of questionable things. I don't think anyone is denying that. S3 was really difficult to get through from that perspective.

 

But I still don't really understand why anyone would continue watching a show when they detest the lead. Because for weeks now these boards have been overrun with Oliver hate and how terrible he is and, as much as I agree that he can be frustrating as hell on some occasions and OMG do I hate that dumb pointless lie as much as the next person, Oliver is a flawed character. And if precedent is anything to go by, they'll continue to write him as flawed and making stupid mistakes for plot reasons because at this point I don't think the Arrow writers know another way. It's just the way it is. But there's still something about Oliver that makes me want to watch and root for him to find the right way.

 

I guess my original point was if I ever reached the point where all I was doing was hating on Oliver (pretty much like I hated on Ray last season LOL), I'd just stop watching. That's my personal opinion. But each to their own I guess! Insanity sounds about right though. Haha.

[wonderwall]

This line of thought makes me really uncomfortable. Refusing to compromise one's values by consorting with super villains is in no way equal to murdering in cold blood. 

It wasn't actually that tidy. He respected Malcolm's advice about respecting Thea's wishes, but he showed up to the meeting with Darhk. It was the imminent threat of the Calculator's bomb that made him leave when he did. 

 

And, at the end of the episode, he appeared to be contemplating aligning with Nyssa, so he wouldn't really be respecting Thea's choice to let her go.

 

My bad. That was the wrong analogy. Okay let's just say that a doctor figures out a way to help their terminally ill patient live with some sort of surgery. The surgery is incredibly risky though and the patient could die on the table... The surgery could not only kill the patient, but could potentially lower your stats as a surgeon. Would you do anything you can to help the patient or not? If the doctor chooses not to help, would it mean that he actually has a hand at killing the patient by not giving the patient a chance in surgery?

 

Oliver has a choice to save his sister and help find a way to cure her of her bloodlust. Or he could just let her die. I can see Oliver not wanting to let his morals get in the way of Thea potentially living a long and healthy life. I think he owes Thea this much for everything that he put her through by putting her in the Lazarus Pit.

Edited February 6, 2016 by wonderwall

[kismet]

For me the most important thing is what OQ choose to do this time around... he learns to ask the right questions. Look for the fine print. Read the terms & conditions.

 

S3 was really hard because OQ was stupid for stupid plot purposes. I understood his logic of working with MM. But he was not permitted to explain that logic to his team for plot purposes when he returned from the dead. Whatever he chooses to do, he needs to talk it over with somebody because its when OQ makes decisions in isolation that he often picks the wrong option. And he needs to get 2nd opinions, just don't listen to MM because he seems like the resident expert on all randomly popping up out of nowhere plot points. The man can not be trusted... half of the reason the logic of working with MM to infiltrate the LoA was because he was expendable and even Ras wouldn't be able to trust MM's answers. But then be careful what you trade away, giving MM the LoA made no sense.

 

Which brings me back to my initial point. It's not that OQ's heart is not in the right place when he makes the decisions he makes, its that he does not think to look beyond the immediate terms & bargain. Sure the LP can bring TQ back to life, but at what costs. She appeared to be in a permanently vegetative state, a few quick calls around to other facilities and options probably would not have been detrimental.  And ask just exactly what you are signing up to do. He probably still would have joined the LoA, but ask what the requirements & restrictions are. Just ask more questions! Even if the villains stonewall or lie for plot purposes, at least OQ would have learned from his previous experiences to not enter situations blindly by choice

[nksarmi]

I think we just have to accept that Oliver making bad decisions or having to be talked out of making bad decisions is part of who he is.  I mean the whole show began with him making one spectacularly bad decision (taking Sara on the boat instead of just being brave and breaking up with Laurel if he didn't feel the same way).  I would be highly surprised if the show doesn't end that way.

 

And heck, maybe this is ultimately why/how Felicity will forgive him when the shitith does hitith the fan.  Because she also knows that Oliver makes bad decisions.  Heck, she reminded him over coms to make good choices.  If she can decide that she loves him despite his bad choices and he promises to always consult her first - I can accept that story.  I mean, that really should have been the bargain at the end of season three.  "Oliver, I will ride off into the sunset with you, but only if you let me make all of our decisions from now on."

[kismet]

I can accept that OQ makes bad decisions. Heck, we all make bad decisions. But its been 4 years he needs to start learning and putting into action some basic coping strategies for how to overcome his tendency to make bad decisions.

 

Rule #1 - Talk over the big decisions with other people

Rule #2- If someone is forcing you to do something or giving you ultimatums - it is probably not a good decision, so tread carefully.

Rule #3 - If you have make lies to cover up your lies, please reconsider why you are doing it in the first place, so when it all blows up in your face - you can have an exit strategy or at least an explanation.

Rule #4 - No cuddling after you have to withhold things from loved ones for the greater good or to protect other people, esp if said people are future loved ones.