The Bullpen

[Bookish Jen]

I heart Hotch. He is so droll and funny when you look closely.

Me, too. Whereas Rossi is very snarky, Hotch's humor is very dry.

[zannej]

Even my brother-in-law who is a fanatical Repblican despises Trump. The mean side of me wants to say that Trump speaks at a 4th grade level so his constituents will understand him.  (not jabbing Republicans-- joking about people who think Trump would be a good leader) :P

Edited August 26, 2015 by zannej

[Droogie]

I don't like Trump's weird little mouth (very shallow, I know). I like that he isn't a politician, per se, but I think his celebrity is more important to him than any purported love of country.

[secnarf]

I saw a car last week with a license plate that said "UR FIRED", with a Donald Trump for President bumper sticker in front of it. It attracted a few honks driving down the highway.

 

Also, I came across this article: http://www.buzzfeed.com/arianelange/criminal-minds-200th-episode-insider-facts#.xj5aRb98E3

It's a bit old, but it had some interesting points. I never noticed the photo of JM & Ringo Starr on Rossi's desk before!

 

Edited to add: I really shouldn't make fun of Donald Trump as a presidential candidate. I just saw on the news today that a cat named Earl Grey is running for Prime Minister of Canada. The cat is the leader of the Tuxedo party, which is an actual registered party with an actual (albeit limited) platform.

Edited August 27, 2015 by secnarf

[normasm]

I'd vote for a cat named Earl Grey! But only if it had a Vice presidential dog named Lapsang Souchong.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Maybe he's showing how it's not a substitution for the sex act and that's he's just doing it for funsies? What does everyone else get from that?

 

On the scale of psychos, I think Foyet was right when he told Hotch, "There are no guys like me." Although it was noted that the Reaper took extra time killing his female victims, he was an equal opportunity murderer who would kill a man just as easily as a woman, and as Emily points out to Derek after his credentials were stolen, he was still alive because he wasn't conscious, and so he couldn't give the guy the satisfaction of seeing any terror he might have displayed.

 

What's worth noting is that Nathan Harris apparently did - or would have - see stabbing as something that gave him a sexual release of sorts, since he told Gideon that he felt sick but excited at the thoughts he couldn't get out of his head. And that's a whole other discussion to have.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I do wish we could see Hotch meet up with Elle and see if his feelings have changed at all now that he sort of knows what she went through and has a better understanding.

 

 

I don't really think Hotch didn't understand, I just think he couldn't allow Elle to "get away" with having it called a good shoot.

 

Hitch would never trust her ever again to have anyone's back, or to not take it to the extreme with an unsub. She couldn't control herself with the rapist, and that's what he couldn't reconcile with. If she had submitted to the psych eval and somehow gotten herself straightened out, he might have allowed her back. As it was, with her being defiant and not acknowledging that what she had done was murder, he couldn't stand by.

 

Hotch has shown that he will be compassionate when one of his team is going through something dangerous and even illegal, as he did by (I believe) letting Reid get himself straight. He also looked the other way when Rossi killed the Nelson's Sparrow Unsub, because it was in the middle of a chase, not a premeditated stalking, like what Elle did.

 

This conversation has come up before, but the work day is winding down, so. :-)

 

If you directly compare Elle's experience - first with Garner nearly ending her life and then with William Lee being turned loose by the cops due to her screw-up - with Hotch's - Foyet stabbing him however many times, then escaping from jail and eventually killing Aaron's ex - they're not really all that different. Hotch told Strauss that he knew he had to kill Foyet, that letting him get up from the floor meant he would have tried to kill Jack as well, and Foyet even sort of tried to surrender. Before Aaron started hitting him, he said something like, "Okay, okay, I give up. I surrender." But in that moment, Hotch was aware that he had to put a permanent end to it, not just for Jack's safety, but for the safety of everyone who would have come after Jack. Guys like Foyet do not stop. Just like Bundy, just like Dahmer, he'd have gone on killing as long as he was free and breathing.

 

And its very much worth pointing out that Rossi is the one who tells Hotch to get over himself and stop being such a Gideon. I wonder if he'd have been able to inject some sanity into the situation with Elle before she went off the reservation, to step in where Jason utterly failed to do so. Then again, David probably would not have almost gotten Elle killed in the first place, not to mention not stepped in before things got out of hand.

 

In his own way, IMO William Lee was just as dangerous as Foyet. While the latter got off on fear, the terror he caused before he killed his victims, the former wanted his victims to survive, to live so that they'd bring "his" children into the world. The entire reason he got the BAU's attention in the first place is because he changed his MO after that poor college student committed suicide rather than have to have her rapist's baby. Yes, Elle was not fully ready to be back in the field, to say nothing of being the lure to attract Lee's attention, but if it hadn't been for Gideon's carelessness and (partially) Hotch's failure to recognize how deep her trauma still ran, things might not have come to what they did.

[normasm]

Well said, CoStar

[MCatry]

The Hotch that condemned Elle for the 'suspicious' shot is not the Hotch that rules the BAU nowadays.

The younger Hotch couldn't stand lies, or breaking the law, not even for a team member, and had some trust issues.

The older Hotch lied to the team about Prentiss's death, and broke the law several times, and not just to protect/save team members. The younger Hotch would have been very hard on the older one, and at the same time the older one would have said the younger to relax. Life experience change us, for good or evil, or maybe both.

[normasm]

MCatry, yes Hotch matured, but he would be just as hard on any team member who could not control the impulse to go after someone who seemed like they might get away. Several times Morgan has been about to give a beatdown to someone he knew was guilty, but again, this almost always was in the midst of a takedown, not some private circling back to mete out justice that may not be possible by legal means. The difference in that and what Elle did is control.

 

Elle broke every rule there was to go after Lee, and although Hotch might be more empathetic and reach out to her more if it happened now, in the present, he would still not tolerate her lack of control or her disdain for help and rehab.

 

In his book, she could not be trusted to have anyone's back when she felt someone might be getting away. In his mind, she would always be 45 seconds away from losing control again.

Edited August 28, 2015 by normasm

[MCatry]

MCatry, yes Hotch matured, but he would be just as hard on any team member who could not control the impulse to go after someone who seemed like they might get away. .

Maybe.

Then again hotch didn't say a thing when JJ shot that man in the freezer. He didn't voice anything then, nor when Rossi killed the Nelson's sparrow guy. Sure Morgan also shot quite a few unsubs to kill, not to stop, like in the earlier days. He didn't mind skipping the rules to hide Gideon when he was a suspect, or jumping over regulations to 'save' JJ, although they should all could have stayed at home since she is so awesome she practically saved herself.

I think breaking the rules is now standard, since apparently it is 'cooler' to punish criminals, and not just in criminal minds but also in other tv shows.

For me, Hotch, the character, is just a victim of the transformation all characters had suffered in the second part of the series.

[normasm]

I hear you, MCatry, about the rogue JJ. That was so stupid a lot of us went ballistic. A few of us had a problem with Rossi doing what he did to Gideon's murderer, but, as I said, some fudge can be made of that because of the takedown thing. JJ shouldn't have risked the lives of everyone to kill that guy without trying to take him into custody, but TPTB had Hotch not be "aware" of it, only Morgan looking scorchy. Like you say, the difference between the first and second half of the series...

[Danielg342]

I think of Hotch- and by extension, the rest of the team's “cowboy” mentality- is a victim more of the changes in the writing than any real evolution of the character. If it had been “character development” that led to Hotch basically ignoring things like JJ's descent or lying about Prentiss, then someone would have mentioned it, like how Morgan made comments in “Haunted” or “The Eyes Have It”.

[smoker]

I share and agree with most of your comments guys, but the one of lying about Prentiss, aside of the crappy storyline and the holes in the writing, I believe a tactic decision taken for an officer in command doesn't have to be shared with everybody (why in the name of God they involved JJ in that??*)

by the way, tha'st a good example of how Hotch discerned between personal and profesional matters, sadly it's probably the last time.

 

*about JJ involvement in Prentiss going underground.

I have a dream.

Everybody gave her the cold shoulder so she had to call Prentiss' mom to get her the new identities and money. And, one day, Ambasador Prentiss is going to pay them a visit and spill the beans. 

Edited September 1, 2015 by smoker

[Bookish Jen]

"Happy Wednesday, my nerds!"

 

The BAU pondered what was the right secret to the unsub's deodorant issue.
 

[normasm]

Secret™: Strong Enough for a Man, but Made for an Unsub!!

Edited September 2, 2015 by normasm

[Bookish Jen]

Secret™: Strong Enough for a Man, but Made for an Unsub!!

An unsub who uses Axe™ deodorant to kill his victims.

[smoker]

So, I hate to ask but if you any you have the DVD or can go access netflix I need some help. 

In season 7, episode 14 'Closing Time' around 5:55, who says 'Yeah, why not wrap the third body?' Is it JJ or Prentiss? 

 

 

it's Prentiss, I don't know why you need to know it, but I have that kind of obssesions myself sometimes, sorry it took me so long to answer

 

damn! I've just remembered why I didn't like Beth...slutty cheater! ok, maybe not a slutty but she's far worse... a stalker+teaser+cheater! Hotch was horny, no other explanation is possible

Edited September 3, 2015 by smoker

[MCatry]

Beth reminds me of the Eisenstein girl for some reason.

Auch.

Poor Beth. I cannot stand her, but comparing her with Einstein is a little bit too much...

[normasm]

Hahahaha, oh qwerty, thanks for the Einstein laugh!

[Cobalt Stargazer]

An unsub who uses Axe™ deodorant to kill his victims.

 

[Danielg342]

Depending on what kind of the spider he is, Chad has just committed suicide...

[Bookish Jen]

Hahahaha, oh qwerty, thanks for the Einstein laugh!

When Einstein made her snotty comment to Morgan and Reid saying (and I'm paraphrasing), "This is what you do, you talk." I wanted to throw her some shade and say, "Stop, child. The grown ups are speaking."

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Sure you can. Ever bang your knee on the corner of the coffee table or the open door of the dishwasher?

 

Being attacked, though, would likely cause tears in the clothing, depending on how hard you're fighting back. Unless you're unconscious or otherwise incapacitated, that is. In the episode where the UnSub was drowning his victims, then resuscitating them because he wanted to know what happened after they died, didn't they mentions lots of bruising due to his efforts at CPR?

[normasm]

One can just hit someone in the chest while they are fully clothed and leave a bruise, no damage to the clothing. That was one of many medical errors CM has made over the years. And, yes, they have researchers who are supposed to help get these things correct, but in latter years, they must be just doing searches on heavily compromised wikipedia subjects, because they've had some real corkers.

[zannej]

That line about the bruises bugged me too. I mean, unless he was wearing like an armored suit to protect him.. that just didn't make sense.

 

If it had been stab wounds and there were no tears, then it would make sense.

 

I feel like the writers/researchers just handwave a lot and hope nobody will notice that they aren't even trying to get things right.

[normasm]

Probably right, qwerty

[Cobalt Stargazer]

ION Television will be circling back to the pilot episode tomorrow, at five p.m. Eastern time. Check your listings. :-)

[Bookish Jen]

"Happy Wednesday, my nerds!"

 

The BAU did have to admit the unsub had a certain sense of style.

 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I don't like seeing any of them painted with such a broad brush. She does, and has, exhibited honest empathy. Why does it seem like the fandom pushes 'pause' and stays stopped so often, or revisits circular loops that are no longer there? For every complaint (and many are very valid), there are just as many other examples of the opposite. 

 

I can only speak for myself, but IMO it isn't so much revisiting a circular loop as it is seeing that things seem to take place in a vacuum. Once its canon, its canon, no matter how much we may dislike it or think it doesn't make any sense.

 

For JJ in particular, yes, in the past she had moments of expressing genuine kindness and empathy. North Mammom, Revelations, The Instincts, etc.Hell, she even wanted to put off going to the hospital to give birth to Henry because Reid had grudgingly asked for their help with the situation with Sperm Donor.. But that was JJ 1.0, and the iteration we have on our hands now is quite different. This new, "improved" version doesn't seem like she'd tell Spencer what time it was, much less delay heading to the delivery room.

 

Admittedly, instances like Proof and The Forever People bother me a lot more because what I see as plain meanness is directed at Spencer. With his history of having been picked on and bullied, at least twice because of some girl who apparently thought it would be just damn hilarious to participate in having him humiliated, I would think tthat if JJ knows him at all, she ould be aware that he'd be sensitive to such treatment. Especially since she's supposed to be the super-duper empathetic one. Let's forget the personal stuff for a minute, that she's supposed to be Reid's close friend, and that she named him as her son's godfather. Beyond that, they've worked together for a decade, and she can't even apologize without half sounding like an asshole? Even if she didn't feel bad about the lie itself, I think she should have felt bad because of the effect of the lie. It's bad writing, and it makes her look awful, especially since EM seems so obsessed with the idea that JJ is just the aweomsest awesome that ever awesomed.

[ForeverAlone]

If you go back and watch JJ and Reid interact from the very beginning, you will see that JJ has been giving Reid side eyes and cutting him off because she didn't want to hear him talk about his interests since basically episode four. 

[JMO]

I think EM and, to a lesser extent, AJC, did the character of JJ a disservice by celebrating her external toughness when she first emerged from her banishment to the State Department.  Or the Pentagon. Or Afghanistan.  Wherever she was.  This past year, AJ regrouped and presented  the change in her character as a 'shell' JJ had developed because of a trauma she’d experienced.  If I focus on the idea of it, and not how well they pulled it off, I can actually buy that.  That’s why the current iteration of JJ bothers me so much less than she bothers so many others. 

 

Pretend, for a moment, that they’d actually pulled off a backstory for JJ that was plausible, instead of (the awful) 200.  Pretend you could actually buy that the character had been traumatized, in one way or another, and was reacting to the trauma.  It might make sense for her to put up a shield, and develop a tough exterior, and especially so to the one person who has tugged at her heartstrings, the one to whom her new ‘shield’ is most vulnerable. 

 

People under stress behave badly all the time.  I can see JJ doing that.  I can see her putting distance between herself and the friends with whom she was closest.  I can see her being afraid to revisit the source of her trauma (remember, we’re pretending it’s a plausible source).  I can see her being in denial about what it’s all doing to her.

 

I actually think her behaviors are entirely consistent with the intensely private person we met in the early seasons.  I think the character has been hurting, for a long time.   I’m not all that surprised that she lashed out in Proof.  She felt guilty, but she’d become hardened.  Softening to Reid would have put her emotional armor at risk.  So, instead, she lashed out.  Does that make her mean?  No.  It makes her flawed, and human.  Similarly with The Forever People.  JJ is too proud and stubborn to have a breakdown in public.  It was actually pretty huge that she admitted any of her grief and stress to Reid. She wasn’t being disrespectful or mean to him.   It was entirely self-preservation.  And I think Reid understood it that way as well.

 

As with all characters, in all forms of media, how we react is individual to us, the beholders, and not inherent to the character.  JJ is whoever she is, and we each interpret her according to our own particular lenses.  Through my lens, she is a tragic figure who has not yet fully acknowledged her own tragedy.  I just wish EM and the writers saw her that way, too.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

People under stress behave badly all the time.  I can see JJ doing that.  I can see her putting distance between herself and the friends with whom she was closest.  I can see her being afraid to revisit the source of her trauma (remember, we’re pretending it’s a plausible source).  I can see her being in denial about what it’s all doing to her.

 

If its true that personaal lens is part of interpretation, then I guess my lens is that I'm always directly contrasting JJ's behavior in (the awfuler) The Forever People with Elle's in Aftermath. When Reid visited Elle in her hotel room, she was clearly just as traumatized, since she told him that sometimes she could still feel Garner's fingers in her wounds, that it stuck with her that he did that and then used her blood to write on the wall. What she didn't do was lash out at him, or tell him to stop being himself. Even if JJ didn't mean that as nastily as it sounds to me, its still a terrible thing to say to somebody, even if you don't kjnow them as ostensibly well as JJ knows Spencer.

 

Furhter, and this is my real complaint, she never apologized. Yes, people under stress behave badly. Yes, they snap at people, even the ones they care about, and hurt their feelings. But they also generally say they're sorry, even if the other person doesn't require it. And I think Spencer would have been gracious enough to accept it if she had bothered to do so. But she didn't. And I don't like it.

[Saje]

The way that I interpreted that line that everyone dislikes so much is that she wasn't asking Spencer to literally stop being himself (the JJ who is not under duress would never want Spencer to change who he is deep inside, she loves him and cares for him like a relative), but to stop caring and prying and asking those honest questions. It was chinking her armor and she wasn't prepared for that - she was resisting. She did not want to discuss it with him or anyone else, and like JMO said, she lashed out.

I also feel that there have been plenty of examples of JJ 2.0 showing compassion. Angel in Foundation, Alex in Blood Relations, trying to hold it together when Spencer got shot in the neck, The one where the little girl gets kidnapped and Jim Clemente is one of the unsubs, the aforementioned sympathy for Rossi when Strauss dies, Emily on the jet after 200... I could go on but laziness happens. 

[JMO]

 

Furhter, and this is my real complaint, she never apologized. Yes, people under stress behave badly. Yes, they snap at people, even the ones they care about, and hurt their feelings. But they also generally say they're sorry, even if the other person doesn't require it. And I think Spencer would have been gracious enough to accept it if she had bothered to do so. But she didn't. And I don't like it.

 

Yes, and no, to this, especially re: The Forever People.  In part, I think JJ presumed on their friendship, and assumed he would understand, or hoped that he would.  But, in part, I don't think she was emotionally healthy enough (then, or now) to get to the point where she could apologize.  And I like to think that Reid is astute enough to see that.  

 

Some people get there, some don't.  Some continue to lash out. Others apologize. Some have a not-quite-heart-to-heart with a young friend, and then go out and shoot a suspect.  Some apologize for that.  And some don't.  To me, they are different behaviors with a similarly tragic root, each performed in character with the personalities we've come to know on the show.

[Droogie]

I think EM and, to a lesser extent, AJC, did the character of JJ a disservice by celebrating her external toughness when she first emerged from her banishment to the State Department.  Or the Pentagon. Or Afghanistan.  Wherever she was.  This past year, AJ regrouped and presented  the change in her character as a 'shell' JJ had developed because of a trauma she’d experienced.  If I focus on the idea of it, and not how well they pulled it off, I can actually buy that.  That’s why the current iteration of JJ bothers me so much less than she bothers so many others.

The way you've posed this, I could actually (at least try to) get behind some of JJ's behavior. If we had been sold, from the outset, that she was damaged from her experiences, and that moved her to put on the hard veneer, then I would be more charitable with her. But you are so right: EM and AJC pretty much botched it, and it's so hard to retcon it at this point.

My problem, as others have said, is that people suffer all the time; it just doesn't excuse bad behavior. We could say that "you always hurt the ones you love," and JJ felt safe lashing out at Spencer, because he would've understood on some level (that's probably already been said -- I'm trying to flip back to day shift and I'm in a fog). But I'll reiterate my statement from earlier, that when Emily was frightened and worried about Doyle, she thanked Spencer for being himself. JJ just doesn't get to be cruel without apology simply because she was in a bad place.

[missmycat]

I must admit I did start to feel more charitable toward AJ(not JJ) when I found out she had originally believed she would be returning as  the team's media liaison. And what's more the actress seemed perfectly fine with it.And yes she admitted there was going to be some changes in JJ but she meant within the context of her original role.The actress even said she didn't think another profiler was necessary. And she was right. Now something changed along the way. And I am willing to bet MESSer had a hand in it.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Yes, and no, to this, especially re: The Forever People.  In part, I think JJ presumed on their friendship, and assumed he would understand, or hoped that he would.  But, in part, I don't think she was emotionally healthy enough (then, or now) to get to the point where she could apologize.  And I like to think that Reid is astute enough to see that.  

 

Some people get there, some don't.  Some continue to lash out. Others apologize. Some have a not-quite-heart-to-heart with a young friend, and then go out and shoot a suspect.  Some apologize for that.  And some don't.  To me, they are different behaviors with a similarly tragic root, each performed in character with the personalities we've come to know on the show.

 

And most of that sounds fine. Except now you could also be describing my issue with Gideon who, in order to shirk his responsibility in what happened to Elle convinced himself, if not Hotch, that her near-death was something she would understand because that was how they got that partial print from Randall Garner. That she was acceptable collateral damage because, hey, they stopped Garner and rescued the girl and that's all that mattered. And that was why he did nothing to help her, because it clearly couldn't be his fault. Garcia, of course, was still stupid, since how could anyone be so careless as to put personal info on their computers, but Jason himself? His actions were totally acceptable, and it doesn't matter if he really believed it or not. Just the fact that he would ever tell Hotch, "She'll understand I was just doing my job" once Elle was out of surgery means he needed to believe what he did was kosher so as to not have to deal with his own carelessness. And he pretty much forced Aaron to deal with her once the smoke cleared and William Lee was dead.

 

That kind of avoidance, that refusal to put on your big boy (or big girl, as the case may be) underwear is exactly what drove me crazy about Gideon, and being completely serious I'm not sure you want me conflating JJ with it. As Droogie, says, she doesn't get to be a Mean Girl to Reid just because of her personal trauma.

[missmycat]

Don't they have an agreement not to profile each other anyway? Spencer shouldn't have confronted JJ, just expressed his concerns to Hotch. And why didn't Hotch notice? Or anyone else?

Since Spencer was so worried about JJ all he could do was stare at a map then maybe he shouldn't get involved. Although I found that scene ridiculous and wish it didn't happen. What was the point in that scene? To show that Spencer just cares about JJ so much he can't do his own work when she's having emotional problems? It almost on the same level as Garcia saying 'When my friends hurt, I hurt and I can't do my job' or something like that. You can't profile unless your mind is clear and having a team full of people who get sad when the others are sad is a bad idea. God, why did they have that scene? It just makes me so disgruntled. I might be able to stand that episode if they just removed that scene. The idea that Reid can't focus because JJ is going through some things is just...There's no word to describe how I feel.

JJ needs counselling. 

Also about counselling. Do you think Morgan getting counselling was something he chose? Hotch seemed to know about it so it makes me wondered if it was something he suggested. 

Good question. Why didn't Hotch notice that something was off with JJ,but yet he was able to notice Reid seemed to be having trouble concentrating.The very idea that Reid's concern for JJ impaired his ability to concentrate pissed me off so much. It simple flies in the face of what we had learned about Reid previously. I mean for crying out loud this was a guy who while being held captive by a mad man was still able to function enough to try in communicate his whereabouts to his team via the clues he was sending them. And I wasn't at all happy how irresponsible Reid came across in this episode. He should never had agreed to let JJ take off after the unsub by herself knowing the state of mind she was in.

 

I can't help but contrast the way Breen wrote Reid so awesomely in The Uncanny Valley vs the way he wrote him in this atrocity.This episode was a joke.Which of course was neither the fault of AJ's or Matthew's but rather that of MESSer and Breen, who had previously shown he had the ability to write Reid rather intelligently.But,somehow must have ended up with the case of the stupids where Reid was concerned when he wrote this episode.

 

And can we just please stop with all this secret crap between the different team members already. And I will be seriously pissed if it turns out that JJ revealed the miscarriage she suffered to Reid but had not yet said anything to her own husband about it.

Edited September 12, 2015 by missmycat

[Saje]

Everyone knows Reid was using. 

 

Yeah, I don't really get the 'secrets' thing, either. And Erica said that when JJ said "No more secrets" to Will when they were all at the bar, that that meant she had told him about the miscarriage.

 

So what other secrets are we looking at?

[missmycat]

I don't think she told Will. I feel like if he knew she could talk about it and this breakdown could have been avoided. I don't think they're done with it yet though, I think it will come up in the next few seasons if the show does make it that long. 

What other secrets are there currently? Could Reid's past drug use still be a secret to some team members or are we to assume since JJ knew, everyone knew? And by 'knew' I mean confirmed by Reid, not just their own observations. 

.I personally don't understand why JJ felt she couldn't tell her husband.Just like I saw no reason why Garcia couldn't at least had tried to confide in Sam about what she was going thru.Unfortunately you are probably right about them bringing it up again.But I will be sure to avoid any such episode(s) like the plague. Because the likelihood of its(their) execution being similar to those atrocities known as 200 and The Forever People is highly probably to me.

 

There are no current secrets as far as I know. I was referring to the ones in the past.But hey I am sure MESSer can always come up with something else along those lines. And she probably will.

[JMO]

And most of that sounds fine. Except now you could also be describing my issue with Gideon who, in order to shirk his responsibility in what happened to Elle convinced himself, if not Hotch, that her near-death was something she would understand because that was how they got that partial print from Randall Garner. That she was acceptable collateral damage because, hey, they stopped Garner and rescued the girl and that's all that mattered. And that was why he did nothing to help her, because it clearly couldn't be his fault. Garcia, of course, was still stupid, since how could anyone be so careless as to put personal info on their computers, but Jason himself? His actions were totally acceptable, and it doesn't matter if he really believed it or not. Just the fact that he would ever tell Hotch, "She'll understand I was just doing my job" once Elle was out of surgery means he needed to believe what he did was kosher so as to not have to deal with his own carelessness. And he pretty much forced Aaron to deal with her once the smoke cleared and William Lee was dead.

 

That kind of avoidance, that refusal to put on your big boy (or big girl, as the case may be) underwear is exactly what drove me crazy about Gideon, and being completely serious I'm not sure you want me conflating JJ with it. As Droogie, says, she doesn't get to be a Mean Girl to Reid just because of her personal trauma.

Just read through the rest of this thread, and it looks like we're back on the same carousel we were before, just another go-round. There are, it seems, two very different ways to view some of these scenes and, thereby, the characters. Just as there are two ways to react to human flaws. You can chose to be angry with the person, real or fictional, who suffers them, or you can choose to be empathetic. I see the flaws, and I choose empathy. I've never known anger to be an effective tool in changing behavior.

[MCatry]

I think it all comes to the earlier development of the story. Do you remember that Messer stated JJ's issues would arouse, and Hotch would be the tending hand? And after a while, and some announcements about episodes with Hotch's b-side stories there were fans voicing their anger about 'no-Reid stories' this season?

Well, I think that 'the forever people' had an original concept that was later modified in order to fit Reid and not Hotch. In the process both ended up looking useless. So many flaws in one single episode may have been a consequence of rushing things to change sections of the story.

In conclusion: be careful of what you wish,

It may become true.

Edited September 12, 2015 by MCatry

[missmycat]

I think it all comes to the earlier development of the story. Do you remember that Messer stated JJ's issues would arouse, and Hotch would be the tending hand? And after a while, and some announcements about episodes with Hotch's b-side stories there were fans voicing their anger about 'no-Reid stories' this season?

Well, I think that 'the forever people' had an original concept that was later modified in order to fit Reid and not Hotch. In the process both ended up looking useless. So many flaws in one single episode may have been a consequence of rushing things to change sections of the story.

In conclusion: be careful of what you wish,

It may become true.

I get what you are saying and there is a lot of merit to it. But maybe they should have just kept the episode the way they had originally planned. And they should have given Reid his own long overdue story line. Or at the very least they should have allowed him to have more prominence in the episode we had originally thought was going to deal with Garcia having issues over having shot someone.But instead Janine turned it into some anti death penalty agenda.And Morgan was instead giving more prominence in her story line.

[Saje]

<Referencing the discussion a little further up>

 

She wasn't a mean girl. She was hiding. And he found her out and she couldn't handle it. Please. It was ONE line. And it didn't hurt Spencer at all. He took it exactly how she meant it.

I feel that if that line had been uttered by any other character, it would have been a non-issue. JJ wasn't trying to "get away with" anything. She was speaking from instinct trying to protect her shield, which was fragile to begin with. And again I'll say, because its been ignored, that she did not literally mean he should stop being himself. She lashed out because she wanted him to stop probing. THAT was it. THAT was what she meant.

 

She loves Reid
He's family
She does not literally want Spencer to stop being Spencer
She wanted him, at that moment, to stop digging
That's why she said that

 

How many times have we all said things we did not mean in moments of intense emotion?

[Bookish Jen]

"Happy Saturday, my nerds!"

 

When unsubs create potato chip flavors.

 

Sorry a few days late with this. I was in training all week and my brain is completely fried!

[Droogie]

<Referencing the discussion a little further up>

 

She wasn't a mean girl. She was hiding. And he found her out and she couldn't handle it. Please. It was ONE line. And it didn't hurt Spencer at all. He took it exactly how she meant it.

I feel that if that line had been uttered by any other character, it would have been a non-issue. JJ wasn't trying to "get away with" anything. She was speaking from instinct trying to protect her shield, which was fragile to begin with. And again I'll say, because its been ignored, that she did not literally mean he should stop being himself. She lashed out because she wanted him to stop probing. THAT was it. THAT was what she meant.

 

She loves Reid

He's family

She does not literally want Spencer to stop being Spencer

She wanted him, at that moment, to stop digging

That's why she said that

 

How many times have we all said things we did not mean in moments of intense emotion?

Oh, Saje, I want to agree with you. We've all said things under duress that we regret later. But when we realize we've been a huge douche, we apologize. Therein lies the difference, for me. And if the character of JJ hadn't been made to look good at Reid's expense (IMHO) for the past few seasons, it would've been easier (for me) to overlook. But she was and so it wasn't.

[Russet29]

Oh, Saje, I want to agree with you. We've all said things under duress that we regret later. But when we realize we've been a huge douche, we apologize. Therein lies the difference, for me. And if the character of JJ hadn't been made to look good at Reid's expense (IMHO) for the past few seasons, it would've been easier (for me) to overlook. But she was and so it wasn't.

I don't necessarily think the part about apologizing is true, particularly when it comes to family. I'm sick and exhausted and just flipped out at my sister (who is visiting from out of town) for no reason and 10 minutes later we were laughing. She knew I didn't mean anything by it and we obviously know each other well enough for an apology to be unnecessary. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I feel that if that line had been uttered by any other character, it would have been a non-issue.

 

Not necessarily. I recall a time when Morgan asked Reid, apparently in all seriousness, "Is it that difficult for you to be normal, just one time?" And then there's Garcia saying that her attending that con thing with him was acceptable because she could never be sexually attracted to him. Hell, even Alex asked him where he rated on the Goddamn Asperger's scale in one of her first episodes.

 

The difference is, Alex was the only one out of those four instances who apologized, and even though Reid blew it off as a non-issue, she told him she was sorry, which is what you're supposed to do when you say something that's potentially hurtful. I can see how it comes off like harping, but I really don't understand why its so damn terrible to take exception to the lack of an apology. I'm willing to believe that JJ didn't mean it, that she wasn't being serious. I am. If anything, I would rather not hate her, because at this points its clear she isn't going anywhere. But the writing doesn't make it easy for me.

[Saje]

She has apologized to him before, it's not like she's never (Spence... I'm sorry!), but I think the magnitude of her issue at that given time was so extreme, she was feeling nearly out of her mind and I can understand how the last thing on her mind was to apologize to her friend. I feel that she did not mean it viciously, so why should there be a mandatory apology? That's the way I see it, anyway.