The Bullpen

[Racbec]

So I watched a bunch of episodes from the first season on ION today. I know it's been said many, many times here before, but, damn, this was a great show back then. The characters, the writing, the music, the focus on profiling....a good reminder of why I fell for this show.

[zannej]

This is why they need Andrew Wilder back!! He actually care about the case resonating emotionally with the team and about showing Reid as intelligent and Hotch as the leader.... And then there is sassy Rossi... He knew how to use the characters well.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Gosh, I love(d) Jeanne Tripplehorn. She was simply awesome as Blake, redundant though her character was, seeing as how Reid was already an expert in linguistics (another nod to the canon-butchering the writers now seem to love). But I loved her gentle, quiet character. I thought she was a perfect fit. I have been quite charitable to the brunette agents who've cycled through the BAU -- I think they've all been superb.

 

Since its a slow news day due to the hiatus, I wanted to put some thoughts out there, hopefully without beating an already liquefied horse.

 

I have a friend who is obsessed with Supernatural the way I'm obsessed with CM, and we often contrast and compare between the two shows, as you do. Or maybe not. She claims not to see the issue with the fact that the show has what I've come to call the Revolving Door Of Brunettes, starting with Elle and ending with Kate. And if they haven't learned their lesson yet and decide to replace Kate I imagine the door will revolve again before too long. This despite the fact that she does take issue with the Dead Redhead Club (don't ask), as if bringing a character on board only to either dispense with them before they can gain their footing (Kate) barely use at all (Alex) or twist beyond recognition (Emily) is somehow preferable to killing them off so that Dean and Sam can have some more angsty man-pain. The only one who kinda-sorta escaped that fate was Elle, and even Elle's departure sits wrong now and then considering the later relaxation of the Do's and Don'ts of what was allowed. And that the show has decided to both keep Garcia and JJ while simultaneously making them unbearable makes the way they treat the brunettes doubly glaring.

 

At this point, I feel like I'm one of the holdouts about JJ. I was mostly indifferent to her for a long time, and while I noticed the shift in her character I rolled with it because it didn't screw up anything for me. And then Proof happened, and Emily and Hotch backed her up instead of letting her and Reid sort it out between themselves, as if she needed to have the heat taken off of her and/or that Spencer was being a big baby because she lied to his face, and how dare he be mad when he might have picked up a needle again to cope with his loss. Doing her job, yadda yadda, fine, but somehow she thought it was okay to play Texas Hold 'Em or whatever with Emily online while she was gone? Because that isn't risky at all.

 

Also, I think we've reached the point where we're getting the backlash against the backlash, where people who are still fans of the character have a cow when even the slightest disparaging word is said against them. Which is fine, because I know I can get my back up when my favorites get criticized just for taking a breath. OTOH, it doesn't really address the larger problem, which is that quite a bit of the criticism has quite a bit of merit, IMO. Its why I'm askeered of Twitter, because from what I can tell, they pack an awful lot of vitriol in 140 characters.

[Old Dog]

 

Since its a slow news day due to the hiatus, I wanted to put some thoughts out there, hopefully without beating an already liquefied horse.

 

I have a friend who is obsessed with Supernatural the way I'm obsessed with CM, and we often contrast and compare between the two shows, as you do. Or maybe not. She claims not to see the issue with the fact that the show has what I've come to call the Revolving Door Of Brunettes, starting with Elle and ending with Kate. And if they haven't learned their lesson yet and decide to replace Kate I imagine the door will revolve again before too long. This despite the fact that she does take issue with the Dead Redhead Club (don't ask), as if bringing a character on board only to either dispense with them before they can gain their footing (Kate) barely use at all (Alex) or twist beyond recognition (Emily) is somehow preferable to killing them off so that Dean and Sam can have some more angsty man-pain. The only one who kinda-sorta escaped that fate was Elle, and even Elle's departure sits wrong now and then considering the later relaxation of the Do's and Don'ts of what was allowed. And that the show has decided to both keep Garcia and JJ while simultaneously making them unbearable makes the way they treat the brunettes doubly glaring.

 

At this point, I feel like I'm one of the holdouts about JJ. I was mostly indifferent to her for a long time, and while I noticed the shift in her character I rolled with it because it didn't screw up anything for me. And then Proof happened, and Emily and Hotch backed her up instead of letting her and Reid sort it out between themselves, as if she needed to have the heat taken off of her and/or that Spencer was being a big baby because she lied to his face, and how dare he be mad when he might have picked up a needle again to cope with his loss. Doing her job, yadda yadda, fine, but somehow she thought it was okay to play Texas Hold 'Em or whatever with Emily online while she was gone? Because that isn't risky at all.

 

Also, I think we've reached the point where we're getting the backlash against the backlash, where people who are still fans of the character have a cow when even the slightest disparaging word is said against them. Which is fine, because I know I can get my back up when my favorites get criticized just for taking a breath. OTOH, it doesn't really address the larger problem, which is that quite a bit of the criticism has quite a bit of merit, IMO. Its why I'm askeered of Twitter, because from what I can tell, they pack an awful lot of vitriol in 140 characters.

I agree with you completely.  But Twitter is not a place to sensibly discuss CM - it is full of either the Rah Rah fans or the sycophants! And Facebook is full of over-emotional and under-informed teens. I enjoy sites like this where the posters are rational and not intellectually challenged - well most of them at least.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I caught the very end of that rerun on A&E this morning.  This time, they cut that final conversation between Hotch and Reid in half, completely deleting Reid's explanation about why he'd done what he'd done.  Whoever is in charge of editing over there needs a transfer.

 

I don't think we've seen any consistency in Hotch proactively intervening with his staff.  He's good at rendering the stare, but doesn't always take it beyond that.  Even with Reid.  He indicated, several times, that he knew or suspected Reid had a problem with drugs, yet the only vaguely confrontational thing that came before Elephant's Memory was when he forced Reid to accept Emily's help during one case.

There are other examples of times he has intervened but, to my eye, they were most often because of something going on with him, internally.  For example, he confronted Morgan about insubordination that one time, when he (Hotch) was under scrutiny and about to step aside; he was honest with Morgan about how he perceived his leadership skills at the end of 'Mayhem', but only because Morgan pushed him on it.  He confronted Emily about possibly leaking information to the congresswoman in 'Sex, Birth and Death', because he was already in a tug-of-war with said congresswoman. 

 

I remember him proactively asking JJ if she was all right, just the one time.  And Emily, when she came back to the team.  I just don't think it's his forte, and I'm not surprised he didn't have JJ in counseling before her insubordination in 'The Forever People'.  And, yes, I'm 100% convinced it happened then.

 

I'm a little confused as to what your argument is here, JustMyOpinion. Are you saying that because Hotch isn't one hundred percent consistent with when he chooses to intervene, that makes it acceptable for him not to call JJ out on-screen for her recklessness in The Forever People? I'm not being snarky, I'm seriously confused. Because if you're certain that he got JJ into counseling afterwards, or that she got herself into counseling, then wouldn't that mean that he directed her attention to the fact that there was a problem?

 

I mean, if its the case that he told JJ in Off-Screen Land to get her act together, then maybe he does the same for the others in Off-Screen Land too. Hell, maybe he stayed in touch with Elle after she left, kept track of whether or not she went into therapy or joined a survivors group or something. Maybe he kept in contact with Jordan to see if she was getting along all right once she decided she couldn't hack it at the BAU. Maybe he Skypes with Alex and Emily to see how their new jobs are working out. Maybe he'll be talking to Kate on the phone a lot next season. He might have even kept tabs on the unfortunate Seaver for all we know. Any number of things are possible in Off-Screen Land.

 

This actually isn't as sarcastic as it sounds. He did sideline JJ in Nelson's Sparrow, but he never says why he wants her to stay behind with Garcia, I don't think. And really, after her massive screw-up in The Forever People the least she deserved was to sit it out for one case. We can at least agree that she behaved recklessly, can't we? Maybe no worse than any of the others in the past, but IMO that doesn't disprove my basic point.

[JMO]

 

I'm a little confused as to what your argument is here, JustMyOpinion. Are you saying that because Hotch isn't one hundred percent consistent with when he chooses to intervene, that makes it acceptable for him not to call JJ out on-screen for her recklessness in The Forever People? I'm not being snarky, I'm seriously confused. Because if you're certain that he got JJ into counseling afterwards, or that she got herself into counseling, then wouldn't that mean that he directed her attention to the fact that there was a problem?

 

I mean, if its the case that he told JJ in Off-Screen Land to get her act together, then maybe he does the same for the others in Off-Screen Land too. Hell, maybe he stayed in touch with Elle after she left, kept track of whether or not she went into therapy or joined a survivors group or something. Maybe he kept in contact with Jordan to see if she was getting along all right once she decided she couldn't hack it at the BAU. Maybe he Skypes with Alex and Emily to see how their new jobs are working out. Maybe he'll be talking to Kate on the phone a lot next season. He might have even kept tabs on the unfortunate Seaver for all we know. Any number of things are possible in Off-Screen Land.

 

You're right, CoStar---you missed my point.  I'm not saying Hotch called JJ out off-screen.  I'm saying he never called her out at all.  I think she went to him.

 

There have been quite a few people clamoring about Hotch not intervening with JJ, especially in 'The Forever People'.  I'm pointing out that he has a history of not doing so.  The most obvious example is Reid.  There are several episodes in which Hotch, and Gideon, acknowledge their concern about his drug use, but do nothing.  In 'Jones', it is Reid who decides he wants to turn things around.  Hotch or Gideon may have pointed him at BCC, but it was Reid who decided when he was ready.  Hotch didn't call out Reid on his behavior until he was already in recovery (Elephant's Memory).

 

I think the same thing happened in 'The Forever People'.  JJ's stress had risen to a level she could no longer tolerate, and after her 'conversation' with Askari, she made a decision.  That's what I believe the "No!" represented.  And I think she went to Hotch, and started her own form of recovery.  Sometimes I wonder if Reid knew, from his own experience, that their unit chief wasn't going to compel her to get help, so he took it upon himself to force the issue.

 

[normasm]

JMO, with any addict, it is the addict who has to decide to turn things around, no matter how involved family and/or coworkers/bosses are. I always inferred that Reid finally went to Hotch after 3rd Life, when his cravings became overwhelming, and Hotch guided him to the BCC. I thought in the aftermath of Revelations, Hotch thought Gideon was involved, and Gideon thought Reid was handling it. When Jones came around, Reid had had enough, finally realized that it would have to be he that saved his own bacon, and so he did.

 

I also thought that JJ stayed back in Nelson's Sparrow because she had gone to Hotch and they had decided to pull her back a little. I wish we had seen her pulled back for a few more episodes.

[JMO]

Normasm, you're right about addicts needing to decide when they're ready. The same is true for therapy. Around here, therapists won't accept a referral from anyone but the client.

It may well be that Hotch and Reid had a conversation after Third Life. But I thought it was handled more explicitly (although not explicitly enough) in Jones.

But I don't know about Hotch thinking Gideon was handling it. There are those voiceovers where he cites the vulnerabilities of each member of the BAU, and the vulnerability of the unit as a whole, perhaps under scrutiny from the hierarchy, for those unaddressed issues. But he doesn't conclude with a plan to address them, and I was left with the sense that he would not.

[ForeverAlone]

I think Hotch never intervened directly with Reid's drug problem, because if he knew for sure he was on drugs, he likely would have had to discipline him directly, which could have had an adverse impact on his career.

As for JJ going to Hotch, we never got any indication of that at all. At least with Reid post 3rd Life, we got that conversation between Hotch and Reid about it. Post The Forever People, we saw no change in anything JJ did, except for Nelson's Sparrow, and I always attributed that to be more for Penelope. There has been zero indication JJ is in counseling of any kind, and JJ seems like the type to repress stuff until she is forced to face it. Nothing about the end of The Forever People made me think that JJ was going to accept that she needed help. Hell, even Reid didn't suggest counseling, but somehow thought that showing her his file would be of some help to her. The behavior of nearly everyone in that episode was inexplicable to me.

[normasm]

It may well be that Hotch and Reid had a conversation after Third Life. But I thought it was handled more explicitly (although not explicitly enough) in Jones.

But I don't know about Hotch thinking Gideon was handling it. There are those voiceovers where he cites the vulnerabilities of each member of the BAU, and the vulnerability of the unit as a whole, perhaps under scrutiny from the hierarchy, for those unaddressed issues. But he doesn't conclude with a plan to address them, and I was left with the sense that he would not.

At the end of Jones, Reid finally spins down to earth, and has already made his decision to get straight and confide in Gideon. He tried, but Gideon bats it right back at him, after talking about how hard this job has been for him (ergh). Reid says he just wondered if he could step away from the job, and Gideon's face lights up a little before he asks, "And?" When Reid answers, "I'll never miss another plane again," the light goes out in Gideon's eyes again. I don't think there was any direct "coaching" or guidance from Gideon. I also think Hotch stayed away from helping Reid directly, because if it came out he knew Reid had a drug problem, both Hotch and Reid would have been fired. I think, after Gideon went bye-bye, Hotch did a bts sortee to help support Reid. It probably wasn't explicit, but he was much more of a support to Reid all the way from that point on. It was obvious to me that Hotch knew what "I was at the movies" meant at the beginning of Elephant's Memory, and he was the only one at that point, because everyone else thinks it's funny. This is all just my take.

[JMO]

FA, re: The Forever People----same show, same episode, and yet we saw two completely different things. Does that make it art?

[Old Dog]

FA, re: The Forever People----same show, same episode, and yet we saw two completely different things. Does that make it art?

Definitely not art! More like a badly written episode that people are struggling to find sense in and therefore apply subjective experiences to it. No-one in that episode behaved in character and in my view the whole thing should be consigned to the same garbage bin as 200.

[MCatry]

I also think Hotch stayed away from helping Reid directly, because if it came out he knew Reid had a drug problem, both Hotch and Reid would have been fired.

I never quite understood this.

For me, Reid was working when he was drugged against his will. As a result, he had an addiction. So the employee wouldn't be able to blame him nor fire him, since that problem was caused by the agent doing his work. Even the effect of 'hiding it' would have been ok, since it would be part of the PTSD, also due to the Hankel issue. Now, Hotch nor Gideon telling their superiors the agent had a problem, that was not correct. And then everyone pretending not to see what was going on was not ok neither. After a couple of weeks, I guess everybody but Reid could have been charged for omission of information.

FA, re: The Forever People----same show, same episode, and yet we saw two completely different things. Does that make it art?

I think you are confusing two terms: one thing is what we heard and what we saw. Another thing is what we may interpret from what we saw/heard.

In The Forever People...

We saw JJ sniffing on one scene

We saw JJ taking over the case as a personal one

We saw JJ disobeying a direct order from her boss (Hotch, just in case you don't remember who is the boss)

We saw JJ shooting the unsub straight away

We saw JJ sniffing again at the end, and we heard her saying a big NO to close the matter

We didn't see anything else but the titles rolling on the screen

We didn't see any reaction from any other team member but Reid (and I wish he wouldn't play a part on that, since he was portrayed as pretty useless)

We didn't see any follow up for her actions, her PTSD or the miscarriage.

In fact, we saw a Smiling JJ telling Reid she was expecting a new baby, right after being an active participant of an arrest where she was, as usual, waving her gun and chasing unsubs through dark environments.

Those are the facts. We all watched this.

Everything else, is just our personal interpretation.

[normasm]

MCatry, if Reid had admitted he continued using dilaudid and was addicted, he would have been dismissed (maybe the word "fired" in his case was too strong); in any case, they would not have even a recovering addict in the field on this job. Therefore, if Reid had been caught lying about this very serious matter he would have been fired, as would his supervisor, if it were determined that he knew Reid was an addict and covered it up.

 

Remember in In Name & Blood, when Hotch told Emily that if Strauss found out one of his agents might have a serious drug problem that Hotch knew about she would have his badge? That's what made Hotch let Gideon take the lead in helping Reid, or so he thought (once again, it seems like all Gideon did was wring his hands about how hard this job was on himself).

Edited June 15, 2015 by normasm

[Cobalt Stargazer]

MCatry, if Reid had admitted he continued using dilaudid and was addicted, he would have been dismissed (maybe the word "fired" in his case was too strong); in any case, they would not have even a recovering addict in the field on this job. Therefore, if Reid had been caught lying about this very serious matter he would have been fired, as would his supervisor, if it were determined that he knew Reid was an addict and covered it up.

 

And more than that, he was initially distrustful of Emily because of the circumstances she first showed up following, Elle being involved in a questionable shooting. Between Elle shooting William Lee, Morgan being arrested in Chicago, Reid's addiction issues, and finally Hotch killing Foyet, its a wonder any of them have jobs.

[JMO]

I was being facetious about the 'art' comment, but maybe I shouldn't have been. It's all in the eye, ear, heart and mind of the beholder, after all.

MCatry, I partially agree with you that some things are 'facts' and others 'perceptions'. I can't bring myself all the way there, because I think it's nearly impossible to avoid perception. It flavors everything we take in and how we remember it. It also affects what we choose not to see, or hear, or remember. Taking your list (above) as an example---(sorry, can't figure out how to quote on an IPad)----and recognizing that there were full episodes between The Forever People (the sniffle) and The Hunt (the smile), there was obviously something that influenced you to include some scenes and omit others. If not perception, then what?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Since it was my post in Reid's thread that kicked off this discussion, I'm going to quote myself.

 

His sympathy for Owen Savage is such that he not only borderline sides with the kid when the team is giving the profile, he ends up putting himself in the line of fire to keep the others from taking the shot to bring Owen down. He does the right thing for the wrong reasons, saves Owen's life because he over-identifies with him and because he doesn't want to see someone else die right in front of him. To keep something he can prevent if he tries hard enough off of his conscience.

 

But actions and behavior have consequences. Not just for Owen, who at best ended up in a psych hospital and at worst in prison, but for Reid. Hotch tells him in no uncertain terms that while he's the smartest kid in class, he isn't the only kid in class, and that if he ever risks his life and the lives of others while on the job again, he will be.

'

I think that's all viewers are asking for with JJ, for her to be called on her actions and behavior now and then, and I don't think that's unreasonable. If even Reid needed to be told not to ever do something again, then I don't see why JJ should be exempt.

 

 

IMCatry, I partially agree with you that some things are 'facts' and others 'perceptions'. I can't bring myself all the way there, because I think it's nearly impossible to avoid perception. It flavors everything we take in and how we remember it. It also affects what we choose not to see, or hear, or remember. Taking your list (above) as an example---(sorry, can't figure out how to quote on an IPad)----and recognizing that there were full episodes between The Forever People (the sniffle) and The Hunt (the smile), there was obviously something that influenced you to include some scenes and omit others. If not perception, then what?

 

The question that has yet to really be answered is, Why do JJ's reckless actions not deserve consequences? Because to date, she's really the only one who has gone unscathed, at least professionally speaking. Its debatable as to how much her PTSD has really affected her, as it seems to appear and disappear at random, but I'm talking about her job status, not her emotional state. Let's review:

 

Elle was a participant in a suspicious shooting, and even though legally she was cleared, Hotch believed she'd taken the law into her own hands and would have arrested her if he'd had any evidence of it.

 

Derek was arrested in Chicago for a murder he didn't commit, which could have cost him his freedom if he'd been convicted, to say nothing of his badge.

 

Spencer was taken hostage and injected with drugs, leaving him with an addiction that he fought free of, but had his Dilaudid use become common knowledge to the likes of Erin Strauss, he'd have been bounced out the door on his brilliant ass.

 

Gideon made quite a few questionable decisions, including the one that nearly cost Elle her life, and finally the case in Doubt finished breaking him and he wandered off into the sunset, never to be heard from again.

 

The case in Doubt is what resulted in Aaron's suspension, and Strauss told him that if it was up to her he would never get his badge back. Its still unclear as to how she intended to use Emily to lever Hotch out of his job.

 

Emily had her past come back to bite her in the ass when Ian Doyle re-surfaced, resulting in her "murder."

 

Even Garcia, the least likely team member to court real professional trouble, got her computers hacked by Randall Garner, and even though what happened next wasn't her fault, she could have absolutely lost her job for being so careless.

 

Only JJ hasn't really gotten much more than a verbal reprimand, and considering her behavior in The Forever People, it rather makes her stick out like a sore thumb. I need it explained to me like I'm five why we shouldn't see repercussions for her. Professional trouble because of her rogue actions, personal issues with Will because of the miscarriage, something. This is why people have such issue with her anymore, I'm pretty sure. Its certainly why I have such issue with her.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Cobalt Stargazer

[JMO]

Just a point of information about how the FBI deals with employees who suffer chemical dependence. I researched it for a story. What I learned is that they offer support in the form of the usual Employee Assistance Programs, and will accommodate someone willing to rehab. But there can't be illegalities involved. So, if you are addicted to alcohol, or to prescriptions drugs legally obtained, your job might not be in jeopardy for that reason alone. But, if your drug is an illegal one, or illegally obtained (e.g., you took it from the pocket of a corpse at the scene of a crime), then the FBI might dismiss you, and even help prosecute you.

I've wondered how it would have gone for Reid, since his addiction began, essentially, as part of his torture at the hands of the unsub. Could it be successfully argued that he not be prosecuted, since he was 'under the influence' at the time he took the drugs from Henkel? Seems obvious, but one never knows.

[Bookish Jen]

JJ is proof that some people can throw themselves into shit and come up smelling like Chanel no. 5.

 

As for the DVD cover of season 10, it really does look like Matthew and Kirsten play supporting characters. I know Penelope started out as supporting character, but she's now a a main character, and Reid has been a main character since the first season. But instead of feeling "cheated" I'm going to spin this in a positive light. Matthew and Kirsten are presented in this way because they were at the helm of this past season's better episodes, the Matthew directed "Mr. Scratch" and the Kirsten co-written "Nelson's Sparrow." Yea, I'm reaching; I'm really reaching.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Bookish Jen

[secnarf]

Definitely not art! More like a badly written episode that people are struggling to find sense in and therefore apply subjective experiences to it. No-one in that episode behaved in character and in my view the whole thing should be consigned to the same garbage bin as 200.

In my opinion, Forever People is worse than 200. I found it so much more frustrating to watch. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is not with what actually happened in 200, because I can suspend my disbelief quite far, but the issue is mostly with the (lack of) aftermath. And I don't think it's only this storyline that has a problem with the aftermath - just look at Hotch after Mr Scratch. No impact whatsoever. And then, what, mid-season 11 we'll suddenly get an episode where he is affected by it? I don't mind unrealistic things happening to the characters - it's a fictionalized TV show - but what on earth is the point if you're not going to follow through? And it's the follow-through that I find most interesting.

The Forever People was unbelievably frustrating for me to watch - I just wanted to slap some sense into the characters. Never mind how delayed JJ's reaction was, there was still a lack of believable follow-through, and I think that was worse than just leaving things as they were and having no follow-up at all. I am holding out hope that with JJ's pregnancy, this whole thing will be dealt with appropriately, but I am worried it will end up being like The Forever People, and leaving things worse than they were before.

 

We don't know if Will even knows about the miscarriage, so that could explain the lack of fallout from that. There's just something about Will though...I don't like him, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if things aren't nearly as perfect in their marriage as it seems.

[MCatry]

MCatry, if Reid had admitted he continued using dilaudid and was addicted, he would have been dismissed (maybe the word "fired" in his case was too strong); in any case, they would not have even a recovering addict in the field on this job. Therefore, if Reid had been caught lying about this very serious matter he would have been fired, as would his supervisor, if it were determined that he knew Reid was an addict and covered it up.

 

Remember in In Name & Blood, when Hotch told Emily that if Strauss found out one of his agents might have a serious drug problem that Hotch knew about she would have his badge? That's what made Hotch let Gideon take the lead in helping Reid, or so he thought (once again, it seems like all Gideon did was wring his hands about how hard this job was on himself).

I don't know much about law and work here in this country, so you may have to explain me this:

If I am an employee, and while doing my work I have an accident. Lets say I break a hand, while working. Are you telling me that if I am not ok by a certain date my employer has the right to fire me? Sooner or later?

Because my reasoning for this is that Reid actually got the addiction because of working, not by choice. Every following event linked to that addiction started while he was working. If they would have fired you are telling me he wouldn't have any legal defense? If so, this country is rather weird, because in any other country I've lived if you are hurt while working you will remain at the full pay out of work, until you recover totally, and if you relapse, it is the employer duty to do the follow up.

I do remember what Hotch said, and what the other did (just looking the other side, except, partially, Prentiss), but that doesn't make sense to me neither.

So, if something like that happens in the USA the worker takes the blame?

--(sorry, can't figure out how to quote on an IPad)----and recognizing that there were full episodes between The Forever People (the sniffle) and The Hunt (the smile), there was obviously something that influenced you to include some scenes and omit others. If not perception, then what?

The scenes that I mentioned were the ones related to the topic of discussion that started a chain of comments: the JJ PTSD.

It doesn't make sense to include other scenes in which that topic is not tackled. For instance, Hotch reaction, or lack of. That's an entirely different angle for a discussion.

To quote from an iPad just click the " on the lower right corner of the comment. A black message saying "reply to comment" will pop up. Just click on that and you will be able to reply with quotes.

[Droogie]

JJ is proof that some people can throw themselves into shit and come up smelling like Chanel no. 5.

 

As for the DVD cover of season 10, it really does look like Matthew and Kirsten play supporting characters. I know Penelope started out as supporting character, but she's now a a main character, and Reid has been a main character since the first season. But instead of feeling "cheated" I'm going to spin this in a positive light. Matthew and Kirsten are presented in this way because they were at the helm of this past season's better episodes, the Matthew directed "Mr. Scratch" and the Kirsten co-written "Nelson's Sparrow." Yea, I'm reaching; I'm really reaching.

I like your positivity here. That's a nice way of looking at it. I think maybe even many, if not most, people won't even notice it. For me, it is glaring.

I don't know much about law and work here in this country, so you may have to explain me this:

If I am an employee, and while doing my work I have an accident. Lets say I break a hand, while working. Are you telling me that if I am not ok by a certain date my employer has the right to fire me? Sooner or later?

Because my reasoning for this is that Reid actually got the addiction because of working, not by choice. Every following event linked to that addiction started while he was working. If they would have fired you are telling me he wouldn't have any legal defense? If so, this country is rather weird, because in any other country I've lived if you are hurt while working you will remain at the full pay out of work, until you recover totally, and if you relapse, it is the employer duty to do the follow up.

I do remember what Hotch said, and what the other did (just looking the other side, except, partially, Prentiss), but that doesn't make sense to me neither.

So, if something like that happens in the USA the worker takes the blame?

The scenes that I mentioned were the ones related to the topic of discussion that started a chain of comments: the JJ PTSD.

It doesn't make sense to include other scenes in which that topic is not tackled. For instance, Hotch reaction, or lack of. That's an entirely different angle for a discussion.

To quote from an iPad just click the " on the lower right corner of the comment. A black message saying "reply to comment" will pop up. Just click on that and you will be able to reply with quotes.

Most US employers will allow what is commonly called FMLA (an acronym for Family Medical Leave Act, enacted in the early 1990s, for anyone to take up to 12 weeks unpaid leave per year for themselves or to care for an immediate family member. This is available only to people who work for a company that employs 50 or more people.). When you return to work, you are not guaranteed your exact job, but you will at least have a comparable position at the same rate of pay. If you need longer to recuperate, you can apply for short-term disability (which I believe is six months). If it is granted, the same thing applies -- maybe not your same job, but similar, but your rate of pay is a percentage --maybe 70? -- of your normal earnings. For a longer leave, you must apply for long-term disability. At that point, it is assumed you won't return to work for the foreseeable future. Your job is not guaranteed, should you return, but you will receive a monthly income which is a percentage of your normal wage.

[MCatry]

Thanks for the clarification, Droogie. However, that looks more like regular health conditions, and not occupational accidents and/or injuries. Am I wrong to assume this?

[Droogie]

It's pretty much all the same. You can take leave for maternity or for caring for an ill family member. Short- and long-term disability come into play when you yourself have been injured or become ill, regardless of cause -- you could have cancer, or you could've gotten your foot cut off in some sort of job-related accident -- it's all treated alike. You could be compensated additionally if you are injured on the job, but the factors affecting your job don't change.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Droogie

[MCatry]

It's pretty much all the same. You can take leave for maternity or for caring for an ill family member. Short- and long-term disability come into play when you yourself have been injured or become ill, regardless of cause -- you could have cancer, or you could've gotten your foot cut off in some sort of job-related accident -- it's all treated alike. You could be compensated additionally if you are injured on the job, but the factors affecting your job don't change.

Interesting.

In the EU as well as in several countries in South and Central America there is a difference between having a health issue caused by the work activities, and having a general health issue.

What do you mean by 'factors affecting your job don't change'?

[Droogie]

Interesting.

In the EU as well as in several countries in South and Central America there is a difference between having a health issue caused by the work activities, and having a general health issue.

What do you mean by 'factors affecting your job don't change'?

I meant that your exact job may not be available but you could take something comparable with the same salary. It may be that after a long-term disability leave,though that you aren't guaranteed a job at all -- I haven't looked into it very deeply.

[normasm]

Addiction and substance abuse are somewhat different, whether you are high security clearance or not. Still in the U.S., there is enough stigma attached to even being alcoholic or bipolar, that many people do not seek treatment through work for fear of losing their jobs. Even if PTS or drug dependency could be directly traced to the job, it is looked upon differently than losing one's foot or hearing to the job. Many people hide their job-related mental/psychological injuries (and self-medicate) because they fear they will lose the very job that caused them.

[Danielg342]

Since it was my post in Reid's thread that kicked off this discussion, I'm going to quote myself.

The question that has yet to really be answered is, Why do JJ's reckless actions not deserve consequences? Because to date, she's really the only one who has gone unscathed, at least professionally speaking. Its debatable as to how much her PTSD has really affected her, as it seems to appear and disappear at random, but I'm talking about her job status, not her emotional state. Let's review:

Elle was a participant in a suspicious shooting, and even though legally she was cleared, Hotch believed she'd taken the law into her own hands and would have arrested her if he'd had any evidence of it.

Derek was arrested in Chicago for a murder he didn't commit, which could have cost him his freedom if he'd been convicted, to say nothing of his badge.

Spencer was taken hostage and injected with drugs, leaving him with an addiction that he fought free of, but had his Dilaudid use become common knowledge to the likes of Erin Strauss, he'd have been bounced out the door on his brilliant ass.

Gideon made quite a few questionable decisions, including the one that nearly cost Elle her life, and finally the case in Doubt finished breaking him and he wandered off into the sunset, never to be heard from again.

The case in Doubt is what resulted in Aaron's suspension, and Strauss told him that if it was up to her he would never get his badge back. Its still unclear as to how she intended to use Emily to lever Hotch out of his job.

Emily had her past come back to bite her in the ass when Ian Doyle re-surfaced, resulting in her "murder."

Even Garcia, the least likely team member to court real professional trouble, got her computers hacked by Randall Garner, and even though what happened next wasn't her fault, she could have absolutely lost her job for being so careless.

Only JJ hasn't really gotten much more than a verbal reprimand, and considering her behavior in The Forever People, it rather makes her stick out like a sore thumb. I need it explained to me like I'm five why we shouldn't see repercussions for her. Professional trouble because of her rogue actions, personal issues with Will because of the miscarriage, something. This is why people have such issue with her anymore, I'm pretty sure. Its certainly why I have such issue with her.

Good points. Another point about Garcia is that her decision to hold secret counselling meetings for murder victims came back to haunt her when her “boyfriend” (Jason Clark Battle) sought her out and shot her for trying to investigate his crimes.

Cobalt Stargazer, you did hit the nail on the head on why I'm frustrated with JJ 2.0. 1.0 did have to struggle with keeping the relationship with Will a secret, as well as the aftermath in shooting the dogs and getting whacked in the head in “The Performer”, but that is about it in terms of actual character adversity. 2.0? She seems to have her fair share of traumatic incidents, but nothing ever provides her a challenge and that's what's frustrating. It isn't enough for me to see JJ be given all these traumatic events- they need to have a payoff, and we have yet to see that.

[Bookish Jen]

Exactly, Danielg342. Everyone is held accountable or pays for their mistakes, failings, and missteps, but JJ is freaking Teflon!

[missmycat]

Exactly, Danielg342. Everyone is held accountable or pays for their mistakes, failings, and missteps, but JJ is freaking Teflon!

I agree. And I know we talked about how Messer identifies, or as someone else puts it over identifies with this character. But I believe another part of the problem is that Erica also has this character on some sort of pedestal.I came to that conclusion one day after watching the episode JJ which was written by Erica Messer.

Now I didn't always feel this way about that episode.Once upon a time it was simple a nice tribute episode to a character they'd soon be losing.But with all that has been going on these last few seasons with regards to the JJ character I began seeing that episode from a whole different perspective.

[Danielg342]

A lot of amateur writers make the mistake of thinking that if they put their character through any kind of hardship, it'll make the character unlikeable, when the truth is different. When it comes to JJ I see many of those qualities, since Erica Messer seems unwilling to let JJ “lose”, and we see the result of that decision.

[missmycat]

A lot of amateur writers make the mistake of thinking that if they put their character through any kind of hardship, it'll make the character unlikeable, when the truth is different. When it comes to JJ I see many of those qualities, since Erica Messer seems unwilling to let JJ “lose”, and we see the result of that decision.

But I think Messer does realize it. I know one of the things that helped endear me to Reid was him being of a tragic figure.And I will bet I am not the only one who feels that way. Hence we have Messer making  JJ into a more tragic figure via the story line they gave her in 200. The problem for me is I couldn't help but feel that this was a desperate attempt by Messer, who was aware of the backlash against JJ, to try and garner some sympathy for this character and hopefully alleviate some of the backlash against her. Now it may have worked with some fans,but not me. All it did was piss me off, because I felt like they were trying to manipulate me into feeling sorry for this character.

Edited June 17, 2015 by missmycat

[Danielg342]

But I think Messer does realize it. I know one of the things that helped endear me to Reid was him being of a tragic figure.And I will bet I am not the only one who feels that way. Hence we have Messer making JJ into a more tragic figure via the story line they gave her in 200. The problem for me is I couldn't help but feel that this was a desperate attempt by Messer, who was aware of the backlash against JJ, to try and garner some sympathy for this character and hopefully elevate some of the backlash against her. Now it may have worked with some fans,but not me. All it did was piss me off, because I felt like they were trying to manipulate me into feeling sorry for this character.

I think Messer might know that a character needs hardships, but I don't think she understands it. That's what decides it for me. If she did understand it, JJ's hardships would actually have an effect on her character, so much so that she has to struggle and find some way to overcome the challenge that's befallen her. As JustMyOpinion has said before, JJ has had numerous opportunities for a challenge- yet it never seems to arrive.

The other part of the “amateur” equation is that an amateur writer falls victim to “favouritism”, where they won't allow their favourite character to face any kind of reprecussions for what they did lest (they fear) the audience will reject the character because of it. They may let other characters make the occasional mistake and face the consequences, but never will “the favourite” suffer that same fate. This is what I think is happening to JJ.

[SSAHotchner]

If I were Savannah I definitely wouldn't feel threatened by Morgan's relationship with Garcia (and this has nothing to do with physical appearance), but I would be annoyed. Similar to how I am annoyed with their relationship as a viewer. It's clear there's no sexual tension between the tw of them and it's all innocent (yet bothersome) fun. I have no problem with how they were in earlier seasons, but now they just lay it on so thick. It's similar to how the writers feel the need to write unsubs who outdo past unsubs and who are more deranged and sadistic. 

 

I remember an earlier episode, it was a probably a few seasons ago, when Morgan snapped on Garcia and told Hotch that she really needed to up her professionalism game. It pissed me off so much when Hotch's response was: "She always gets the job done." Did it ever cross anyone's mind that in every case they are working against the clock and Garcia's unnecessary rants just waste time?  What would happen if they showed up 10 seconds too late to save a victim because Garcia spent those seconds with a ridiculous greeting or sign off? I'd actually enjoy seeing that.

Yes! She wastes so much time patting herself on the back for how wonderful she is, too. And after all these years she's still shrieking and flinching from crime scene photos and details. Unbelievable!

[SSAHotchner]

 

Just to clarify some stuff -

 

I did mostly mean that the Morgan/Garcia "bantering" has gotten bothersome because they lay it on so thick. In the early seasons, it was bearable, and every now and then outsiders would react to it, like in Aftermath when he was on the phone with her and said, "You are a goddess, woman" and when he hangs up all the people in the waiting room were staring at him. He fumbles a little, then says, "Uh, it was a work call." It was a moment, and then he went back to being serious and doing the job. Like Garcia herself, it was the spice that livened up their otherwise mostly grim every day lives, but they also knew when to cut it out and be professional. Over time, what was once kind of cute has become unbearable both because its so overdone and because there's no point to it. The closest thing to sexytimes they've had is when he stepped out of her bathroom all wet and wrapped in a towel, and given how she reacted to that situation, I can only imagine how spun out she'd have gotten if he had ever asked her out on a date.

 

As for Savannah, it doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not Derek is attracted to Penelope, because after all this time I don't believe he is. It has to do with her being the girlfriend now. Its mostly a party foul kind of thing, like getting too drunk at someone else's house. He doesn't have to want to actually do anything with Garcia for it to be a bit disrespectful towards his SO.

 

Also, I'm not so much of a hypocrite that I think shipping in canon doesn't or can't work. God knows I've written stories that feel like canon at this point because I prefer that to the show sometimes. But at the same time, I'm glad CM has avoided it. Morgan and Garcia are bad enough, and they're not dating. How bad would it be if they were?

I find the Garcia/Morgan banter tiresome and over the top. But even way back in season 2 there was that scene at the beginning of The Big Game where the whole team was at the bar. Morgan was dancing with some women and Garcia was fixated on him in a very creepy, adolescent way. I was glad when they introduced Kevin as a love interest for Garcia. But in recent seasons, she's become more and more childish in every way. I don't buy the relationship with the Sam character at all. It seems like something they introduced 1) to get rid of Kevin and 2) just to have that scene where she and Morgan double date. 

[FormerMod-a1]

This seems like the best place to ask this...

 

I am someone who loves seasons 1-4, liked season 5, started wandering off in season 6, stopped recording or catching up maybe in season 6, definately in season 7 and stopped watching all together in the past couple of seasons.  I did try to check back in last season (I think) and caught the JJ PTSD episode and the JJ gets tortured episode.  With all that in mind, do you have recommendations for good episodes in the past 2 seasons?  Is there anything I should catch up on?  I have kept up with reading the forum, mostly (maybe not the ep threads, but most the others) so I do still have interest in the show and was looking to see if I can start watching again.

[Old Dog]

You MUST watch Mr Scratch from last season if nothing else. It was the best episode for years - unmissable. It's a shame you dipped back in with The Forever People and 200 which were the absolute worst ever.

Also good episodes in Season 10 - A Thousand Suns, A Place at the Table, Rock Creek Park, Lockdown and Nelson's Sparrow. Season 10 was a big step up from the dire Season 9 with these really good episodes.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Old Dog

[normasm]

Lockdown is being rerun this Wednesday. I agree with Old Dog's picks for the most part. There were a few good epees in 9, but i'll have to think about it when I'm not on deadline (get back to work!)

[Droogie]

I hope it's ok to mention this here: a petition is making the rounds on Tumblr (and probably other places) asking for CM to re-recruit Andrew Wilder as a writer for the show. I'm not much for demonstrations and petitions but I did sign it, and if anyone is interested, it shouldn't be difficult to find.

[FormerMod-a1]

You MUST watch Mr Scratch from last season if nothing else. It was the best episode for years - unmissable. It's a shame you dipped back in with The Forever People and 200 which were the absolute worst ever.

Also good episodes in Season 10 - A Thousand Suns, A Place at the Table, Rock Creek Park, Lockdown and Nelson's Sparrow. Season 10 was a big step up from the dire Season 9 with these really good episodes.

 

 

Lockdown is being rerun this Wednesday. I agree with Old Dog's picks for the most part. There were a few good epees in 9, but i'll have to think about it when I'm not on deadline (get back to work!)

 

Thanks for the recommendations.  I won't get to them for about a week, but hopefully it will be good summer fare on nights that I am home. :)

[missmycat]

I hope it's ok to mention this here: a petition is making the rounds on Tumblr (and probably other places) asking for CM to re-recruit Andrew Wilder as a writer for the show. I'm not much for demonstrations and petitions but I did sign it, and if anyone is interested, it shouldn't be difficult to find.

I saw it and I signed it. Although I have to say I don't really put a lot of stock in it doing any good. Still, I hope it does get quite a few signatures. So Andrew can see just how much he is missed by the CM fandom. And IF by some miracle it is successful, I will be doing the happy dance big time.

[JMO]

I'd been asked to share the link to the petition, but couldn't do it until this AM.  At the moment, it looks like it's still there, but it may come down today.  So, if you'd like to sign on, here it is:

 

http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/rehire-andrew-wilder

[Saje]

.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Saje
removed ref to banned poster

[Old Dog]

That is appalling and so insulting to MGG!

[ForeverAlone]

Why would the 2015 calendar have Jeanne in it?

And yeah, Jeanne aside, this picture seems to sum up the screentime structure for the cast. I just can't figure out WHY Matthew would go from one of the most touted actors on the show, to being basically at the bottom of the scrap heap. Especially since I think Matthew has one of the largest fanbases of the cast. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Edited July 9, 2015 by ForeverAlone

[Old Dog]

Was this an official calendar I wonder or one of those cheap bootleg ones?

[Old Dog]

I thought it might be fan made so I checked the seller and it's 'by CBS Studios (Author), ABC Studios (Author)'. It's on Amazon here. 

Side note, it came up as suggested while I was looking for the books. Is it just me or are the books impossible to find? 

If you mean the novels by Max Alan Collins - Killer Profile, Jump Cut and Finishing School - try searching Amazon under these titles.

[Old Dog]

I thought they were good, very case oriented. They were written quite some time ago now and I personally found the characters themselves written rather stiffly - but I read them after having watched the characters develop on screen for years plus I've read a LOT of fanfiction so i am sure that coloured my view a bit. Well worth a read if you can find them.

[MCatry]

I bought Jump cut in Australia, some years ago. It is worthy. I hope someday I would be able to get the others.

[Bookish Jen]

I don't know if that has been discussed yet but look at his calendar design. 

It's just so awful. Did they just choose the worst possible photo? One where Reid's not looking to the front and the lighting is inconsistent? He looks like he found his way there by accident and doesn't belong with the rest of the cast. 

"What fresh hell is this?"-Dorothy Parker.

 

How do you take a truly breathtaking beautiful and photogenic man like Matthew and somehow make him look like wax figure made by someone on a crystal meth, Everclear and Taco Bell bender? I know Matthew is a pretty easy going but I am so pissed for him and the character he plays.

 

Now I don't feel so guilty for falling into a fit of giggles and tears when my friend Nora said Spencer/Matthew runs like a windsock on legs-granted we were working on about four hours of sleep at the time.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Bookish Jen