The Bullpen

[Droogie]

How do you think Criminal Minds would be different if suddenly it were on a pay channel, like HBO or Showtime? Do you have any ideas or scenarios? What kind of difference would it make for the team members? Or the crimes/UnSubs?

Edited March 21, 2015 by Droogie

[ForeverAlone]

Well...we would see more breasts. And more graphic violence. But we likely wouldn't get any more intelligent writing unless we got a new showrunner and batch of writers.

[Danielg342]

I kind of already think there's a show that's "CM as if it were on HBO", and that's Wire in the Blood. It was a British show and involved a single profiler (Tony Hill) working with a "major crimes unit" of a fictional UK city, so other than the fact the profilers weren't a "national unit" (which in Britain's case would be the National Crime Agency) that traveled around the country and the local detective was actually a major character, it was essentially CM with more blood, gore and nudity.

 

Now, I only saw one episode- the second episode, "Shadows Rising" (which, like the first three episodes, was a two-parter)- but I did actually enjoy it. However, it is not for the faint of heart. You had one shot where a naked woman was seated, legs spread apart, with her throat slashed. The plot involved teenage girls going missing, where they'd meet an adult male. have consensual sex with him and see that guy bash their head against a wall before leaving them chained inside a cage where they'd starve to death (I think they'd also be sexually assaulted but I'm not sure we saw those assaults).

 

That wasn't the worst part. No, worse than seeing a teenage girl with this huge bloody bruise on basically a quarter of her head (blackening her eye) was the shot of a dog that had its throat slashed and left to die in the bathtub. Yes, a dog- and a tiny one too (I believe it was a Yorkshire terrier). Apologies for the squick, but I needed to show how far the show was willing to go.

 

Now, I will point out Wire in the Blood is marvellously written and all the squicky stuff wound up making sense in the end- this wasn't shock value for shock value's sake. It certainly wasn't all easy to watch, but you don't sit there thinking "why did they need to do that?"

 

CM on the other hand...considering that Erica Messer has flat out stated that she wished the show was on HBO just so the characters could be darker, something tells me that the writers themselves would love to be there too just so they can be darker too. I fear CM on HBO would be a show that's even worse with torture porn than it is now, considering that on cable, there are no limits.

 

Think about it:

 

-Instead of "X" being about a guy who sells arms and legs, why not a guy who cuts off, um, "private parts" and sells them?

-Instead of the murder of the dog in "The Apprenticeship" being done off camera, you'd see it done in plain sight

-"The Itch" would likely be filled with shots of naked bodies with bugs crawling all over them

-We'd have far more rapists, and more brutal ones too

-"Breath Play" would likely be more brutal, and maybe not involve strangulation but something even squickier

-"Lockdown" might show a prison rape or two, and actually show that man's scalding death

-Morgan would be naked in just about every episode...and so too would Garcia

-Kids would be killed more regularly, and likely also be killed on-screen (or at least their dead body would be shown)

-People would likely get dismembered on-screen

-We'd get far more sex, and graphic sex, with killers interrupting them from time to time

-We'd likely see necrophilia in all of its...um, "glory"

 

...and that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's other "crazier" stuff that the writers could think up that I'd never dare of thinking of, and I shudder to think what they may be.

 

I'm pretty sure the only thing a CM on HBO would spare us would be an actual depiction of pedophilia or bestiality, since I'm sure the suits in charge would contend that the wider public wouldn't want to stomach those stories, but I fear not even that may happen. All it takes to show pedophilia would be having an 18-year-old actor or actress that "looks young" and the writers could have their Lolita knock-off.

 

So I'm pretty glad that CM is on CBS, since we're spared the worst. Perhaps if we still had Jeff Davis or Edward Allen Bernero I might think differently, since they knew how to craft stories that made sense despite squicky moments, but all bets are off with Messer in charge.

 

...and this goes to a wider point that I have- that network TV has to have better writing than on cable. I'm not saying that cable doesn't have good or even great writers, but I do think a cable writer can be given more latitude to be "lazy" since on cable you can rely on actual gore and nudity for shock value and eyeballs and thus you don't have to actually write a decent story. On network TV, you can't just throw up a pair of breasts and guarantee viewers- you actually need to have good stories, because you can't rely on a cheap thrill to draw people in. Thus, on network TV, you actually have to have good writers, people that can write good stories without needing shock value, and preferrably ones where the audience doesn't even notice that you've written a "clean" version of an event. On cable, "decent" can be good enough, because if the story isn't that good...well, at least you can throw up a pair of breasts.

[Droogie]

Good points.

[spinner33]

I agree with Forever Alone.  Being on HBO would mean more nudity and more graphic violence.  That's about it.

 

Unless there was a major overhaul in the writing staff, and a new show runner hired for CM, it would be the same old, same old as far as topics.    It's the current show runner's extremely-narrow mindset which limits what gets put on the screen. 

[zannej]

Thumbs up to Daniel. I vaguely recall seeing part of an episode of Wire in the Blood. I think my mother watched it, which is surprising because she doesn't like nudity, sex, or swearing (I can't remember if it had swearing or not though). I think she did end up not liking it. I remember thinking it was a very odd show and the title was strange.

[ForeverAlone]

Wire in the Blood the show is based on a book of the same name. The author, Val McDermid has written many books with Tony as the lead character, and I have read most of them. His character is sort of like the British version of Gideon.

[SSAHotchner]

Are there any seats left at the table of people who are utterly mystified by the networks' penchant to air CM episodes out of order?! Editing out certain lines and scenes doesn't bother me quite as much since I get why it's necessary...and because it provides me with the rationale I need to spend money on the DVDs :) (Because we all "need" access to the complete, commercial-free episodes, right? Right!) But airing the episodes out of order is just so unnecessarily ridiculous! It's not even like they're cleverly organizing the episodes according to featured characters or interesting themesO.g., airing key 'Reid-centric' episodes all at once or airing all the episodes where, say, there's a youthful Unsub or where a team member is in immediate peril) They just randomly skip certain episodes and sometimes even jump seasons for no apparent reason. Granted, there's also no reason why I choose to record so many episodes despite owning them on DVD, but that's another story :) 

I've gotten used to that, but it really bothers me that A&E cuts out some of what I think are the best parts of the episodes. For instance, they showed Profiler, Profiled and cut most of "physics magic." They came in where the film canister explodes and falls at Hotch's feet. And when they showed Open Season, they completely cut the scene with the ladies at the bar with "Brad, the Real FBI Agent." Or they'll randomly cut a line here and there, and they're the lines that I really enjoy, even though they maybe don't contribute to the actual case. 

[ForeverAlone]

That is why when I am in the mood for a Criminal Minds marathon, I just pull out my DVDs, so I can watch the full episodes I want without commercials. :)

[Old Dog]

I was just trawling through TV channels and found Sex, Birth and Death about to start so watched it for the umpteenth time. I must have seen this episode dozens of times but not for the last year or two. What struck me most about it this time, apart from the obvious things of the sheer quality of the writing and just how much MGG has muscled up over the years (he is impossibly slender in this episode), was how great Garcia was in it. Sparky, quirky and sympathetic to Reid - it highlighted just what an absurd parody of a character she has become. I wish we had that Garcia back again.

[SSAHotchner]

I know exactly what you mean, Old Dog. I saw that ep, too, the other day. Garcia's compassion for Reid, wanting to get him out to socialize and not let him dwell on what was going on with Nathan Harris, was one of the things I liked about her. She did freak out when they found Nathan bleeding to death, but that's understandable. I also liked that her contributions to the case weren't solely what she could pull up on her computer. When she was talking to Reid about how to find the boy that spoke to him in the subway, she told him that teens often pretend to be older than they are when speaking with authority figures. And her prodding helped him to profile Nathan and figure out how to find him. In fact, I was so aware of how much better the writing and characterization was, that I had to check and see who the writer was. Chris Mundy. I sure miss those writers who are no longer with the show. 

[ForeverAlone]

Yeah, that is one of the episodes that really highlighted Reid, Penelope and their friendship in a wonderful light. It was that I was hoping they would have gotten back to in Burn. The opportunity was certainly there, but Janine chose to sacrifice potential rich character development for a poorly thought out diversion into execution that ultimately went nowhere.

[MCatry]

Yeah, that is one of the episodes that really highlighted Reid, Penelope and their friendship in a wonderful light. It was that I was hoping they would have gotten back to in Burn. The opportunity was certainly there, but Janine chose to sacrifice potential rich character development for a poorly thought out diversion into execution that ultimately went nowhere.

Janine may keep trying, but for me she will never be even close to Chris Mundy.

Two different leagues.

Yeah, that is one of the episodes that really highlighted Reid, Penelope and their friendship in a wonderful light. It was that I was hoping they would have gotten back to in Burn. The opportunity was certainly there, but Janine chose to sacrifice potential rich character development for a poorly thought out diversion into execution that ultimately went nowhere.

Janine may keep trying, but for me she will never be even close to Chris Mundy.

Two different leagues.

Too bad the CBS didn't keep so many awesome writers from those days...

[missmycat]

I hate to say this and maybe I am making too much out of it. But it looks as if CM has lost some FaceBook followers.

The show had over 15 million likes.And now it has a little under 15 million likes.

[Russet29]

I hate to say this and maybe I am making too much out of it. But it looks as if CM has lost some FaceBook followers.

The show had over 15 million likes.And now it has a little under 15 million likes.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to that. The Live + 7 ratings were just released for Lockdown and CM jumped up to a 3.6 in the demo and 14.67 total viewers. Both of those numbers are an increase from the past couple episodes and the competition at that time slot is tougher than ever.

[missmycat]

I wouldn't pay too much attention to that. The Live + 7 ratings were just released for Lockdown and CM jumped up to a 3.6 in the demo and 14.67 total viewers. Both of those numbers are an increase from the past couple episodes and the competition at that time slot is tougher than ever.

Agree. CM did quite well in the Live + 7. Once again it was the network's (CBS) second most recorded show, as well as their most recorded drama.In fact out of the list of 25 shows, that managed to make the list, CM got the 5th largest demo increase, as well as being the 5th most recorded show that week.

Edited March 24, 2015 by missmycat

[Russet29]

Agree. CM did quite well in the Live + 7. Once again it was the network's (CBS) second most recorded show, as well as their most recorded drama.In fact out of the list of 25 shows, that managed to make the list, CM got the 5th largest demo increase, as well as being the 5th most recorded show that week.

I think us fans can sometimes be a bit too negative with regards to ratings and whether or not the show will get picked up for another season, but looking at it objectively, the numbers are pretty remarkable for a ten year old show that gets little to no support from the network.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Fair enough regarding comparisons. Still, Gubler ventured his character was Asperger, then germaphobe, but he doesn't really play him as if he knows what his doing (concerning those issues). If the writers would have embrace those personal comments, Reid may be played different, but true is none of them bothered to look what they were talking about. Then again, as you said, Gubler didn't want to do the drug story line, so he doesn't. He didn't wanted Maeve to be permanent, so she is killed. That is the problem I am pointing out here: there is no real boss that has a master plan with a define direction for the show. Ideas are popping out here and there, and the managers allow them just do them all. I am not saying that Gubler is the only one, or that his collaborations are indeed changing the whole show. It is pretty obvious that other members of the cast have done that to a much bigger extent. Still, my point is that the showrunner allowed that to happen.

Hence, the one who shouts louder gets what he/she wants.

Sometimes I think not Gibson nor Gubler are really interested in this show anymore, and I doubt they would complain for the lack of screen time. If their storylines are tiny-to-non-existent, then they have a lot of free time to prepare/do other projects they really want to do. I don't know what would take for Gibson to sign a new contract. Gubler seems to be the type of guy that wouldn't quit, even if he is dying for, in order to do something more appealing for his taste.

What came first? They, being bored, or lousy stories that bored them to death?

We may never know.

 

Bringing this over here because it has to do with the writing as a while.

 

A friend who also watches CM but is much less emotionally attached to it than I am was trying to make sense of Reid suddenly being a techophobe, and though I've tried to explain to her the likelihood that tech was something he drifted away from in the wake of Elle's near-murder, she doesn't really buy it. I've also attempted to explain that characterization on this show has always been lightly handled, even in the first few seasons. She vastly prefers Emily to Elle and Rossi to Gideon, though, so that may have something to do with it.

 

And not that I doubt your veracity, MCatry, but I'm wondering if Gubler was actually the one who nixed Maeve being a semi-permanent character. I've always been ambivalent about how much input an actor should have when it comes to what they'll play out and what they won't, but even if MGG is only half as attached to Reid as I am, I can't imagine why he would want such a crushing blow dealt to the character. Gubler does grief very well, I'll give him that, but since we didn't really see him recover from it onscreen, I don't know what point there was to Maeve being killed other than shock value, particularly since the writers chickened out of tying her into the Replicator plot.

 

Also, I watched The Big Game and Revelations again the other day, and it occurred to me that JJ was far more affected by having to shoot those dogs when they tried to attack her after having killed one of Hankel's abductees. She was quiet, but like Elle when she first returned to the field she was also preoccupied with the event, and she even pulled a gun on Prentiss when Emily came towards the bathroom to ask her about something. She would be much less affected after she was tortured, and considering that the dogs never touched her before she shot them, that's just damned weird. A change in the writing or in Cook's acting abilities?

 

I do agree that there doesn't seem to be a plan in place. Erica seems to be an incredibly poor showrunner, if only because she completely blew her chance to do something with Alex Blake, who could have been a return to "old school" CM. Whether that's because of Messer's fondness for AJ/JJ or because of the apparent over-arching desire to make the show into an action movie is open for debate. Whichever it is, the network should have stepped in and put on the brakes, and I have no idea why they didn't. I don't believe that it was their intention to hire Jeanne Tripplehorn only for her to be criminally (sorry) underused, because that's a waste of money. Somebody ought to be in charge. I just don't know who that might be.

[MCatry]

 

And not that I doubt your veracity, MCatry, but I'm wondering if Gubler was actually the one who nixed Maeve being a semi-permanent character. I've always been ambivalent about how much input an actor should have when it comes to what they'll play out and what they won't, but even if MGG is only half as attached to Reid as I am, I can't imagine why he would want such a crushing blow dealt to the character. Gubler does grief very well, I'll give him that, but since we didn't really see him recover from it onscreen, I don't know what point there was to Maeve being killed other than shock value, particularly since the writers chickened out of tying her into the Replicator plot.

Here is an extract of an old interview. There are others, but I think this is enough for now.

“We pitched a story where we’d introduce a unique love interest for Dr. Reid and it would end in tragedy,” showrunner Erica Messer explains. And make no mistake, the dark wrinkle had Matthew Gray Gubler’s blessing. “Matthew agreed the only way to tell this story was if she died in the saddest way possible,” Messer says. And while Maeve’s murder — in front of the beau she’d only just set eyes on — abruptly ended this week’s hour, Reid’s reaction/mourning “will be the emotional anchor of episode 813 and it’s the arc for Reid’s character for the rest of the season.”

.

I read once that the cast wanted Messer to be renewed. I guess it was, at least partially, because she allows them to introduce changes. One of the changes I absolutely despise about Reid is that technophobia stuff. As your friend said, it doesn't make any sense at all. And yet, not a single writer, researcher, producer or Messer itself told him that.

Still, it doesn't matter. It is not Gubler's call to run this show, nor make pivotal decisions regarding its concept or development.

After the last four seasons, she still doesn't have a north to point. So, if there are more CM seasons, we may witness even more continuity mistakes that will contradict the earlier continuity mistakes.

I guess it may be easier to be a new viewer, but as an old one, it is painful to watch week after week bizarre crimes that are not even fully explained, along with silly subplots that cannot even be compared with a soap opera. Those shows may be bizarre on their own way, but at least they follow up stories.

[Droogie]

Here is an extract of an old interview. There are others, but I think this is enough for now.

“We pitched a story where we’d introduce a unique love interest for Dr. Reid and it would end in tragedy,” showrunner Erica Messer explains. And make no mistake, the dark wrinkle had Matthew Gray Gubler’s blessing. “Matthew agreed the only way to tell this story was if she died in the saddest way possible,” Messer says. And while Maeve’s murder — in front of the beau she’d only just set eyes on — abruptly ended this week’s hour, Reid’s reaction/mourning “will be the emotional anchor of episode 813 and it’s the arc for Reid’s character for the rest of the season.”

So it looks as if it were a foregone conclusion that she would die; that the idea of her character and her death were a package deal, and MGG's input was , ok, well then it has to be awful... It may have never been their intention to let him be happy and satisfied at that point, so he just upped the ante, as it were.

But he said early on -- in a little clip I saw at the party for "100" -- that he'd like the character to have a girlfriend. And then just prior to season 9, I think, he said in an interview he'd like Reid to have a GF that isn't killed and for the character to be happy.

But yeah, they need a showrunner who knows canon inside and out and who doesn't cater to anyone's whims.

[ForeverAlone]

The Maeve story ended a bit differently than was originally planned and pitched to Matthew. Yes, she was ALWAYS going to die. There was never an intention of giving Reid a steady girlfriend. And yes, Matthew did agree with the original pitch. But Maeve's death was supposed to be a bit different. She was supposed to die in the opening credits, the team was supposed to spend the episode solving her murder, and at the end, Reid was supposed to see a picture of her so he finally knew what she looked like (though the audience would never see a picture for her). And I can see how that sort of tragic, star crossed lovers would appeal to Matthew. But while CBS was fine with killing Maeve (of course they would be), they mandated that the audience would see what she looked like by the end of her second episode, which is why we got to see her at the end of The Lesson. So the show made the change, but they were still determined to kill her. And it is the story choice to murder Maeve in front of Reid minutes after he met her, that I think was a wrong and cruel choice. And maybe after some reflection, Matthew might have come to the same conclusion. I mean there was ZERO reason to kill Maeve, other than giving Reid some MANPAIN, and that was a poor choice in my opinion, and a pathetic excuse for a relationship storyline for Reid.

Edited April 1, 2015 by ForeverAlone

[normasm]

I'm sure Matthew agreeing that Maeve was going to die wasn't made from a position of power. I think they told him it would happen, he said OK, I hope you'll do it well, and then did as he was told. I don't think he was particularly happy with the outcome, but that's the way the dice roll.

 

I'm sure, also, as sure as I can be, that Erica was talking about Matthew in re Reid's addiction when she was explaining that someone asked not to revisit an old Season 2 story, because back then it seemed cool, but now, not so much (and he wanted to pretend it never happened). So I think that is the only time that MGG has made a "demand" and they moved the deck chairs around for him. IMO

[MCatry]

Oh, well. It is pretty obvious I cannot be clear enough in English.

Never mind me then.

[spinner33]

If I remember correctly, Messer released the statement about the Maeve storyline being done with Matthew's approval AFTER the episode aired and caused a major effing uproar.  She claimed it was done with his full approval in order to appease the horrified and upset fans (myself included in that group).  What she was doing was damage control after the fact.  

[normasm]

Yes, he was told (and liked) that they would never meet. That's about all the buy-in I think he personally had.

[Danielg342]

I'm okay with actors having some form of creative control over their characters- after all, they will be the ones stuck with their image. Like it or not, Gubler will always be seen by some as “Reid”, so he should at least be comfortable with the image that character projects. I also think, after 10 years on the show, he should be afforded some kind of respect in terms of decision making- after all, he's a big part of the show's success so he should be a big part of its future.

That said, I do agree with MCatry that there's no hand at the tiller and that Erica Messer just lets people run roughshod all over her and she pretty much just lets it happen. It's not just Gubler or Joe Mantegna, or, as I suspect, Jennifer Love Hewitt (I don't know how else to explain why 10.02 to 10.14 had an endless stream of male victims and few female victims, an obvious show of political correctness, and why Kate Callahan gets to have, right away, a story about her recalcitrant niece) but I'm pretty sure the writers too are exhibiting far too much control over stories than they should be. How else to explain all the grotesque stuff that they do, and the fact that there's hardly much symmetry at all across the episodes as a whole? It's also quite clear in interviews the ideas that Messer has for the show and the stories she gets so excited to tell are in far contrast with what we actually get on screen- it's almost as if she's talking about a whole different show.

The only aspect of the show I think she has much control over is JJ- since I think she gets shoehorned into awkward points in the plot only because Messer insists that she get prominent screentime- and even then, I wonder how much say she has over what AJ Cook wants. Cook was pretty vocal about getting more focused and getting more involved and, well, we've got JJ now in spades. Some writers seem to resist- which is why some episodes JJ seems to just “pop out of nowhere” after being in the background for most of the episode- and, I recall in the lead-up to “The Forever People” that Cook herself was seemingly angry with the writers (though her interview responses and what transpired on screen were vastly different), which leads me to think Cook maybe isn't as aggressive as her counterparts in her demands, though Messer kowtows to her every now and then.

I also could be wrong, but I don't think Garcia's tendency to recoil in absolute revulsion of gore and her tendency to dress like a clown happened before Messer. She may have been repulsed by gory images, but nothing out of the ordinary for a “regular” LEO. So I wonder if Kirsten Vangsness is pushing herself around too.

[normasm]

A team of writers, IMO, is supposed to write a series as a team. If I were the show runner, I would be overseeing every storyline and keeping a sharp eye on canon, making sure that where this week's main writer is weak, we have that writer who is better help out. 

 

The audience shouldn't be able to say, "Oh, that's a Virgil episode," or "Oh, god, it's a Kim for sure!" They should all be Criminal Minds episodes, without the glaring inconsistencies of characters, repetitive victims and gratuitous unsubs just created to gross people out.

 

I don't think anyone is running roughshod over Messer. Perhaps a few are simply trying to keep the ball rolling while it's in play, and they have to bring their canon with them, 'cause she sure ain't doing it.

[spinner33]

I think if anyone's using undue influence to get their way on the show, it's definitely AJ, and Kirsten to a lesser degree. 

 

You have to look to who has gained the most from the changes to the show.   It sure hasn't benefited Thomas, Joe, or Matthew to be sidelined and given less to do, to have their characters made to look flatly stupid in favor of a different character.  That will have a detrimental effect on their future prospects.  No working actor would ask for less to do if they have hopes of working elsewhere again.  That's career suicide. 

 

AJ has benefited enormously since Messer took over.  To the detriment of the fabric of the show, JJ has been pushed forward front and center, based only on the fact that she is the show runner's favorite character.  So, yeah, sister's been working the boss for all she can get out of her, at least in my opinion.   

[zannej]

I take anything Erica says with a grain of salt. She has proven that she is not reliable when it comes to telling the truth about a story or situation. She's given different explanations for things, depending on what sort of spin she is trying to put on. So, I don't necessarily believe her when she claims that Matthew was fully behind a certain story. Of course, she's not going to say "the actor was against it, but we decided to move forward anyway". And there is no way that Matthew is going to outright trashtalk the writers-- he did seem to indicate that he was not happy with how the Maeve storyline turned out though. I think he's just too polite to publicly say anything bad about the writing and writers. And maybe that experience made him want to be more adamant in saying "no". So, it seems like they decided to punish him by not really giving him any stories.

 

In terms of Erica actually running the show, my take is that she's more of a mouthpiece and PR person. Tari said that Erica is the one who liases with CBS (I think she pitches ideas) and is involved with the budget part. The person who is in charge of the writing is actually Janine. Erica is sort of the face of the show and tries to sell it. She clearly knows about marketing strategies and uses them when trying to promote the show and put her spin on things.

 

As for the technophobe thing, I agree that it doesn't make all that much sense-- although I don't think using the situation with Elle would be a good example of why it came around. I think what happened with Hankel using remote access to computers to stalk victims and then try to make Reid choose and killing one of them in front of Reid would have had more impact. He might have started to associate the computers with what happened to him with Hankel.

 

Also, IIRC, JJ's arm needed to be bandaged, so I think one of the dogs bit her. And she was far more rattled after the dog attack than she was after being tortured- which made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

Its just bad/inconsistent writing. I think the writers have this sort of "girl power" trip and think that if they showed her being upset afterward that it would have made her seem weak and that making a woman be emotional/traumatized = weak and they want her to be a superhero and are so sexist they think that women have to be portrayed as better and stronger than men to be equal. Meanwhile, Reid had to be the one to fall to pieces over things because its ok to show men being what they would consider "weak" for a woman-- because it makes the women seem so much tougher. I hate that crap.

[JMO]

I don't know where the technophobe thing came from, since Reid was active on the computer from the very beginning of the show.  He was even the go-to guy on site in several episodes.  It wouldn't surprise me if the character was more fond of paper communication, as he has been shown to have a love of books.  But preferring print doesn't mean he's a technophobe---it's more akin to those of us who still like to turn real pages (me) instead of swiping an electronic device.

 

As to the loss of a story line after turning down the revisiting of Reid's addiction----I very much doubt it was punishment.  There's no reason to think that's how the show operates.  I just think "ooh, addiction!" was the extent of their creativity.  Not going down that road stymied them.  Certainly, most of them have demonstrated that they don't know how to write for Reid. 

 

I do think that JJ's reaction to the dog attack was a much more realistic response than her reaction to the events of (the awful) 200.  Just as we've seen each of the others traumatized by various cases and experiences, it brought home the reality that these are human beings who fight the good fight for the rest of us, sometimes at great cost.  It's the heart of what touches me about CM, really.  Which was why JJ's non-response to her recent trauma left me cold, the poor attempt at portraying PTSD in The Forever People notwithstanding.

 

My thoughts are based solely on the product presented on screen.  I don't know any of the players involved, so I won't get into positing motivations or machinations.  I have no reason to think that anyone is self-promoting or purposely doing anything at the cost of another.  I think we are simply seeing the results of the current assembly of staffing and talent on the show.

[zannej]

Yeah, good point. Maybe they aren't consciously punishing Matthew for nixing the storyline. Good for him if he actually did though. I think they would have done a terrible job with it.

 

And yeah, it does seem odd for Reid to have developed a phobia of technology-- or at least a dislike. But then, people can have changes in preferences. I used to hate computers but I loved exercising, martial arts, and being outdoors. Now I love computers but with my health the physical stuff is now out and I don't like being outside very much anymore. While it doesn't make a lot of sense and isn't exactly likely, I don't think its impossible. Although, I think it was just one of those things Gubler pushed to try to make Reid more interesting because the writers weren't giving him much.

 

Did anyone else see the thing CBS Criminal Minds thing posted on Facebook about 13 moments that they thought would make fans cry? Some of them were things that made me wonder what sort of idiots they have working for them to put that stuff up, because they were not things that would make anyone cry. I think JJ got mentioned about 4 times. Let's see, they asked if fans cried when: JJ's soon-to-be husband was strapped to a bomb, when he traded himself and was taken hostage and JJ was worried, when Henry was in danger, and when JJ had her miscarriage. They had a few for Rossi too. There was only one moment on the list that actually made me cry and that was the funeral for Rossi's military buddy-- that only worked for 2 reasons. One being that I knew the actor had died in real life and that was sad, and it reminded me of my father's death and also reminded me that the Army never sent us a flag for him. I think Reid got 2 mentions- Maeve going missing and Maeve dying. Of course, Haley's death got mentioned too. But there were other things that I think would have been better on that list than some of the drivel they put.

http://www.cbs.com/shows/criminal_minds/photos/1003755/can-you-get-through-these-13-criminal-minds-moments-without-crying-/

[Old Dog]

I thought the list was pretty rubbish as well. I loathed Hit/Run as it seemed very juvenile to me - in fact my son plays a bank robbing computer game that seems very similar - and there were 3 from that shambles alone! The ones that make me cry regardless of how often I watch them are 100 and Moseley Lane - that scene at the end where the father realises his long lost son had been alive just a day previously and it was all just too late. Gets me every single time - but that is probably down to the beautiful directing.

[JMO]

I agree with you, Old Dog.  That scene at the end of Moseley Lane is a series standout for me as well. 

 

I also thought the scene where Morgan has to stand by and watch Ellie's father be killed was powerful. 

 

As to Hit/Run----the saddest parts of that were when Emily stopped that bomb Will was attached to, and when JJ made the biggest mistake of her life, at the end of the episode.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

You have to look to who has gained the most from the changes to the show.   It sure hasn't benefited Thomas, Joe, or Matthew to be sidelined and given less to do, to have their characters made to look flatly stupid in favor of a different character.  That will have a detrimental effect on their future prospects.  No working actor would ask for less to do if they have hopes of working elsewhere again.  That's career suicide. 

 

 

Years ago, there was a story from the Facts of Life set (God, I'm old) about one of the main cast losing her virginity to her long-time boyfriend. The plotline was first meant for Lisa Whelchel, whose character had dated around quite a bit previously and had an unconfirmed reputation for being fast.  She ultimately refused to do it because of her real-life religious beliefs, believing that her character having pre-marital sex would send the wrong message to the show's young demographic. It was slightly re-written and given to Mindy Cohn, who went through with it,. Given that this was back in the early to mid eighties, it was fairly ground-breaking, but OTOH all of the main characters had reasonably active dating lives and were seen as responsible girls, i.e. not the sort to just jump into such important decisions.

 

With that said, I agree with Spinner33 that Hollywood, as an industry town, can and does brand some actors/actresses as difficult to work with if they make too many demands. Julia Roberts and Christian "You are trashing my scene!" Bale in particular have reputations that proceed them as being diva-like due to on-set behavior. I don't think that any of CM's cast are like that, and if anything I think they complain far less than they should, Matthew and Thomas more than the others. The point is, no matter how talented you might be, if you rock the boat overly much, there are those who will start to resent you.

 

 

Its just bad/inconsistent writing. I think the writers have this sort of "girl power" trip and think that if they showed her being upset afterward that it would have made her seem weak and that making a woman be emotional/traumatized = weak and they want her to be a superhero and are so sexist they think that women have to be portrayed as better and stronger than men to be equal. Meanwhile, Reid had to be the one to fall to pieces over things because its ok to show men being what they would consider "weak" for a woman-- because it makes the women seem so much tougher. I hate that crap.

 

This is a really good point, and I've said in the past that I don't think it's legitimately feminist or whatever to make a male character "less than" so that a female one can be better. Hell, forget JJ, the writers had Reid say that the FBI basically had to dumb down their requirements as far as physical things went so that he could join in order to make it more "acceptable" for Seaver to be on the team. I didn't dislike Ashley as much as some people, but as a longtime Reid fan I very much did not appreciate the attempt to make him look weak in order for her to be around.

 

As for the emotional stuff, I think cumulatively Spencer would have collapsed a long time ago if he wasn't pretty damn tough. He's been kidnapped and forcibly fed drugs that he got addicted to, his mentor left due to his own issues, a close friend vanished into the ether after a traumatic event, another "died", and his trust was betrayed because someone else he cared for lied to him for weeks about it, his would-be girlfriend was murdered right in front of him, and then a person he'd recently bonded with decided she had to leave too. And that's not even mentioning the stuff with Sperm Donor and Diana's illness. JJ's Afghanistan experiences didn't even bother her for over a year or something. Is she really a model of emotional toughness?

 

My thoughts are based solely on the product presented on screen.  I don't know any of the players involved, so I won't get into positing motivations or machinations.  I have no reason to think that anyone is self-promoting or purposely doing anything at the cost of another.  I think we are simply seeing the results of the current assembly of staffing and talent on the show.

 

If it's true that AJ and/or Kirsten haven't been wildly self-promoting, then I don't know what to think of Erica's overweening fondness for JJ and Garcia. I'm not saying the characters are completely unimportant, but its very weird that all of a sudden they were heavily featured while the other characters seemed to fade into the background. Especially since the Suits insisted that Paget had to be replaced, then proceeded to ignore that the actress hired in her stead was more or less wallpaper for two seasons, usually so that JJ could either kick down a door or karate kick somebody. If KV and AJC aren't demanding that their characters be front and center, then Erica's doing it on her own, which is just....I don't even know what.

[Old Dog]

If it's true that AJ and/or Kirsten haven't been wildly self-promoting, then I don't know what to think of Erica's overweening fondness for JJ and Garcia. I'm not saying the characters are completely unimportant, but its very weird that all of a sudden they were heavily featured while the other characters seemed to fade into the background. Especially since the Suits insisted that Paget had to be replaced, then proceeded to ignore that the actress hired in her stead was more or less wallpaper for two seasons, usually so that JJ could either kick down a door or karate kick somebody. If KV and AJC aren't demanding that their characters be front and center, then Erica's doing it on her own, which is just....I don't even know what.

I actually thought the sudden prominence of AJC and KV was the result of all that argy bargy over their contracts at the end of Season 8 when they threatened to walk because they weren't getting as much as the male cast. I think the increase in screen time may have been a big part of the negotiations. Personally, I think that if CBS had stuck to their guns and let them walk it may have been a good thing for the show with better writing for the remaining cast and maybe one new team member to freshen it up. Sadly, they were only listening to the people of much noise and questionable intelligence on FB and the like. My opinion only.

[normasm]

Oh, god, that list of did you cry? Garbage!! I didn't cry for any of them except Reid seeing Maeve blown away. I cried when Elle shot the rapist, and still can't watch that without choking up and saying, "Oh, Elle…"

 

I have the exact same feeling of dread and sorrow for Reid as he stands up from Tobias' body, puts the drugs in his pocket and crosses his arms as the music kicks in. "Oh, Spencer…"

 

When he puts the book Maeve gave him on the shelf, I'm a wreck.

 

When Hotch is talking to Haley and Jack over the phone, knowing Foyet is going to kill Haley and try to kill Jack, gah!!!

 

When Emily saves John in Demonology, and you realize he was the father of her baby, and yet her friend who was killed was the one who stepped up.

 

Emily leaving the BAU after looking regretfully at each team member, especially Reid and Garcia, and her voiceover saying, "Confession is always weakness."

 

Nothing to do with Will ever made me cry except him taking time and story lines away from Reid and others, especially that stupid Hit/Run crap.

Edited April 2, 2015 by normasm

[JMO]

The women negotiated for pay equity with the males.  Whether the payors decided the women would need to work longer hours, or more frequently, to achieve said equity, is known only to the parties directly involved.

 

I really don't think the problem is actually the imbalance of screen time---by which I mean that I don't think having solo screen time for any or all of the characters would solve the problem..  I think the problem is that the changes have come at the expense of the group dynamic.

 

I don't necessarily want to see any of the characters on my screen in a solo enterprise (well, except for Reid).  It's the group interaction that makes the show so rich.  I want to see all of the characters interacting.  And, as has been well demonstrated (especially by TG and MGG), it's not necessary for a character to have a spoken line in order to have an impact within a scene.  There are only so many minutes to go around, but it is creatively possible to make them inclusive minutes.

 

I doubt the recent seasons' emphasis on JJ and Garcia have anything to do with contract negotiations or demands.  I think it's just emblematic of a basic misunderstanding of what was special about this show.  I do think we've gotten a little taste of it here and there, this season, so I'm hopeful that it can find that 'special' mix of personalities once again.

[missmycat]

I actually thought the sudden prominence of AJC and KV was the result of all that argy bargy over their contracts at the end of Season 8 when they threatened to walk because they weren't getting as much as the male cast. I think the increase in screen time may have been a big part of the negotiations. Personally, I think that if CBS had stuck to their guns and let them walk it may have been a good thing for the show with better writing for the remaining cast and maybe one new team member to freshen it up. Sadly, they were only listening to the people of much noise and questionable intelligence on FB and the like. My opinion only.

Old Dog I had heard from several sources that CBS, albeit none were official,so this is just speculation, that CBS didn't want to risk losing KV. And if it had just been AJ Cook CBS probably would have just let her walk. I use to think that was a plausible theory but today I am not so sure. It doesn't make a lick of sense to me that at one point CBS was ready to let AJ Cook walk, but than the following season AJ Cook's character gets a whole season dedicated to her including the huge milestone episode of 200.

[Old Dog]

I think it was the way AJC was all over Season 9 and given the milestone episode that make it very likely it was part of her contract negotiations. KV has been more prominent as well but not in the same league as AJC so it does seem odd that you say CBS were more worried about losing KV, Unless the girls stuck together on negotiations. I guess we will never know but it certainly killed Season 9 stone dead for me.

[JMO]

 

http://www.tvguide.com/news/criminal-minds-kirsten-vangess-aj-cook-may-be-leaving-1065089/

and

http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/criminal_minds_renewed_for_season_9_aj_cook_and_kirsten_vangsness_returning-2013-05

and

http://www.tv.com/news/criminal-minds-overcomes-its-contract-standoff-officially-gets-renewed-for-season-9-136813766665/

 

They did negotiate together.  And the only thing made public was that they negotiated for pay equity.  Anything else you see is pure speculation.  I know some people enjoy the speculation game, but I don't have the time or energy to get upset over anything that isn't fact.

Edited April 2, 2015 by JustMyOpinion

[Old Dog]

Speculation is half the fun JMO! And by the girls sticking together I knew they both stood out for pay equality but I wondered if for example KV only agreed to stay  if AJC got increased screentime as well - or vice versa. But there it is, we shall never know. But I do love tossing theories around, sorry.

[JMO]

 

Speculation is half the fun JMO! And by the girls sticking together I knew they both stood out for pay equality but I wondered if for example KV only agreed to stay  if AJC got increased screentime as well - or vice versa. But there it is, we shall never know. But I do love tossing theories around, sorry.

 

I understand, Old Dog. I just get turned off when the discourse becomes a little venomous, like when people get upset with AJC for 'demanding' screen time, forgetting that there is no documentation of such a demand.  There are negative comments made about real people, based on pure speculation that becomes 'pseudofact'.  I don't think it's fair to the people at the heart of the discussion. 

 

It always makes me grateful not to have random strangers speculating on my life without reason or knowledge. 

[Old Dog]

You're right JMO. I do try to keep my venom lashed down but sometimes it escapes! Sometimes though I do manage positive speculation to balance it out. It's sad bit this whole JJ business brings out the worst not only in me but many other people as well.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I understand, Old Dog. I just get turned off when the discourse becomes a little venomous, like when people get upset with AJC for 'demanding' screen time, forgetting that there is no documentation of such a demand.  There are negative comments made about real people, based on pure speculation that becomes 'pseudofact'.  I don't think it's fair to the people at the heart of the discussion. 

 

It always makes me grateful not to have random strangers speculating on my life without reason or knowledge. 

 

I guess this is where I am, too, and FWIW I don't think badly of AJ in real life. She's an actress and this is her job, and its been her job for ten years now. However incredibly questionable I find it to put JJ mostly at the center of everything on the show, I don't blame AJ for anything except benefiting from the largesse of people who might not even watch the finished product once its done filming, and if she isn't the one insisting that Thus-And-Such happen for her character then it isn't so much her "fault" as it is the short-sightedness of the network.

 

But.

 

As ya'll have probably already figured out, I've watched a lot of television in my life, and there was a point where fandom became a refuge of sorts while I was going through a lot of bad personal stuff that's too Sturm und Drang to get into here. Add to that my tendency to be a snark machine, which is getting worse as I get older, and you'll usually find me ready to open fire if I'm emotionally invested in a show or a character or a plot. The worst reaction you can get from me is no reaction. As others have said, I think that if MGG left, and  to a slightly lesser extent TG, I wouldn't be half as invested and could quit the show entirely.

 

And normasm, I am so with you on the 'Things To Make You Cry' list. Even though I can't help but give a small 'hell, yeah!' when Elle shoots William Lee, I'm also incredibly sad because I know where it leads and that she's going to leave soon. And as much as I don't really like Run as an episode, watching Emily dance with the others at JJ's wedding makes me hurt a little as well, because it means the door is wide open for her to leave as well. That might be unpopular, in which case I'll duck and cover before the tomatoes start flying. :-)

[SSAHotchner]

If I remember correctly, Messer released the statement about the Maeve storyline being done with Matthew's approval AFTER the episode aired and caused a major effing uproar.  She claimed it was done with his full approval in order to appease the horrified and upset fans (myself included in that group).  What she was doing was damage control after the fact.  

I really don't believe everything Erica says, either. And who's going to dispute her? There's nothing anybody can do about it now. The damage is done. She's always claiming to do things that the fans would like, calling them love letters and such. But if she really cared about us, she'd get the show back on track. I just think of her as a ditzy schoolgirl who lucked out by getting her current position. I believe she is neither qualified nor capable of handling it. 

[SSAHotchner]

The cry list was ludicrous! The only ones I agreed with were Reid losing Maeve and Rossi keeping his promise to the children in Damaged. And of course Haley's death. Another moment that makes me cry is in Revelation where they flash back to Reid committing his mom to the mental facility. Also the end of P911 where the mother is reunited with her child who was kidnapped as an infant, Amplification when Reid dictates the message to his mother in case he dies before he can speak to her again, and Elephant's Memory when Reid tells Morgan of the incident where he was bullied in high school.

[Danielg342]

Things that make me cry about CM: having to endure the last four seasons.

 

:P

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On a happier note, Extreme Aggressor will be airing on ION on Tuesday at eight p.m. :-D

[MCatry]

I just saw the pictures of the season wrap-up party.

Either the writers crew only posted pictures in which they were included, or the only cast member that showed up was Gibson.

Edited April 13, 2015 by MCatry

[Old Dog]

I just saw the pictures of the season wrap-up party.

Either the writers crew only posted pictures in which they were included, or the only cast memb that showed up was Gibson.

Matthew has been unwell and also had another event on Saturday. Kirsten had another event she had to attend. No clues on the others whereabouts though - it would have been nice if Shemar and JLH had attended if they are leaving the show.