S08.E07: The Last Seduction

[KaveDweller]

I am not, nor have I ever been, a "Beckett hater." This to me implies I just hate Beckett implicitly, and therefore I will find fault with everything she does and says, without any logical thought. That is not the case.

Many times, a person is labeled a "hater" simply for criticizing something. 

 

I am critical of Beckett. I have been equally as critical of Castle. I think many have called both of them on the carpet for different reasons. As a matter of fact, you even stated we're all saying that Castle is being an idiot. I could not agree more. So only looking at the criticisms we're throwing at Beckett and using the term "Beckett hater" is a misnomer.  We're critical of both for different reasons.

 

Not everyone who is critical is a "hater," but there are definitely people in the fandom who hate everything Beckett does no matter what and seem to look for reasons to hate her.  I'm not saying that includes anyone on this board, but they definitely exist.

 

Agreed that the sad end of the episode was in stark contrast to the FUN those wacky kids seem to be having in the next episode, which is why I think he will drop it for several episodes or kind of hint around it to get her to come clean. Because God forbid anybody is direct with anybody else.

 

There's supposed to be a "shift" so I think something about it will happen despite the wacky seeming promo. Then they'll ignore it again in January.

[verdana]

Agreed that the sad end of the episode was in stark contrast to the FUN those wacky kids seem to be having in the next episode, which is why I think he will drop it for several episodes or kind of hint around it to get her to come clean. Because God forbid anybody is direct with anybody else. 

I would give anything for them to have a direct, honest discussion next episode but they seem to have regressed back to the bad old days of avoidance which was incredibly frustrating but it's much worse having to endure the same thing now they're married. 

Edited November 19, 2015 by verdana

[CastleSeason8]

I would give anything for them to have a direct, honest discussion next episode but they seem to have regressed back to the bad old days of avoidance which was incredibly frustrating but it's much worse having to endure the same thing now they're married.

A M E N. And therein lies the problem the writers dont see. Spin it six ways to Sunday, they are married now, cant go backwards

[verdana]

I do wonder if any of these people have ever been in, or experienced, a happy, healthy relationship, and if so, why they think it's so boring, they need to break it up entirely and resort to two people acting like twelve year olds with timeouts.

I have wondered about that numerous times after listening to Hawley and Winter and watching this story unfold over the last few months. Where do these ideas that make it on screen come from exactly? If they do genuinely believe this is how two people would act during a separation (be they married or not) they must have experienced some seriously fucked up relationships in their time Jesus.

I'm around Castle's age and the idea I'd be talking to my estranged partner about time outs/time ins whilst not dealing with the huge elephant in the room for weeks on end is ridiculous beyond belief. The writers often have them saying and doing things and I'm thinking have these writers forgotten how old the characters are and their supposed life experience?

They're not meant to writing for a teenage audience but sometimes it distinctly feels that way which is odd given the actual age of the majority of those who watch the show. I get wanting to appeal to as wide an audience as possible but there are limits because you risk alienating your core audience that do watch regularly if you go to far and you don't pick up the other viewers in what is the more coveted demo for advertisers any way. When some fans (it seems to be the ones in their teens or early twenties) talk in raptures about Caskett's "epic" and "unconditional" love they're witnessing and in some cases they even go on to say they desperately wish they could experience a relationship just like it, I don't know whether to laugh at them or cry for them.

Edited November 19, 2015 by verdana

[LisaM]

Castle used to be one of my favorite shows -- the first one I would watch on my TiVo. Not this season. I didn't watch last week's non-Kate episode and watched this one while glancing at my phone. I think that TPTB made an enormous misstep by breaking up Castle and Beckett; I watched for the romantic banter and wacky cases - not this season's bullshit separation.

 

The best part of the episode for me was seeing Brynn Thayer, formerly of One Life to Life, playing Keller's mother. (Not sure whether she and Nathan were on OLTL at the same time.)

[verdana]

You can't put them back in S2, because they're not at all the same people they were then. They're older and wiser. I want to be twenty one again, but I sure as hell can't just put on the clothes I did back then and go back to college and pretend I still go there. Or act at all like I did then. Who would want to be around me?

Exactly but what I get from listening to Hawley is the objective was to recreate that desire we had back then of desperately wanting these two lovesick adorable idiots to sort things out communication wise, acknowledge their love for each other and get together. Well THEY DID THAT so I can't go back there again and feel the same way, it's impossible, especially when the tool you use to achieve that is to separate them with secrets and lies. Huh? What's so great about that can someone please explain it to me? Where's the feel good factor there? It gets to the stage where I almost dread their interactions every week worried about what fresh absurdity will be visited upon me by these writers in a vain attempt to keep this story rumbling along.

I know the writers expect me to be overjoyed about the latest love scene but a part of me will never be entirely satisfied and happy with that moment due to the ongoing problems hanging in the air between them.

Edited November 19, 2015 by verdana

[verdana]

Think about it. If they'd kept Castle together, they could have still had that ending. They did NOT have to separate the couple to have this complication come between them, but they chose the worst plot contrivance in order to get Castle to grovel for his wife's love all for the sake of the three-letter F word.

The number of times I've heard fans saying this season they would have enjoyed the episode much more without the separation arc getting in the way is telling. Many are now choosing to either try and ignore it or rationalise parts of the story as best they can and discard/hand wave the rest to preserve their sanity and hopefully increase their enjoyment levels. If you're a writer and you hear enough people saying that about what is the central plank in your season storytelling wise then I would suggest you've got a huge problem.

A sign of a successful executed story arc for me is one where I can't wait to find out the following week what's to come, excitedly anticipating the next reveal, discussing it with others. I'm fully invested in that character's journey and intrigued where they'll end up at the end of it. I understand the plot and the characters motivations for what they do and say and any conflict or drama feels organic to the plot.

Instead the writers have given me.....Locksat although renaming it Lockshit seems more appropriate. I know nothing about this story other that what I gleaned in the opening two parter and I couldn't care less what it stands for, who the big bad might be or whether Kate carries on investigating. I don't care about Vikram either and what he might be up to. I don't care that people have died over it that she used to know, I don't care there's some tenuous link to her mother's case in there, I don't care she's terribly upset and craves justice for her FBI colleagues.

I'm so completely apathetic about it and the really scary thing is we're only 7 episodes into the season, the writers have lost me already just like they did over the story of Castle's missing time. I don't care about that either and I should, good storytelling should make you care.

Edited November 19, 2015 by verdana

[madmaverick]

To be honest, I hope he doesn't ever get angry. Of course, I also think she isn't taking advantage of him, but I also think my view shows how different relationships can be viewed. In my opinion, if you love someone you never meet them with anger, you meet them with understanding and maturity and hope. You stick out the tough times and you don't do that by yelling at your significant other or by acting like a child and taking your ball home when you don't get what you want. In my opinion, the fact that he is meeting this "time-out" (sorry, I know you all hate that term) in the way he has shows a level of maturity in relationships that he hasn't shown before.

 

I absolutely agree with what you say about how to respond if you truly love someone.  Although I don't know I'm quite there yet all the time in real life! ;)

 

It would be human to be angry given the situation, but I think that's neither the most constructive nor the most loving response.  There's a lot of keeping score and playing the blame game in the discussion of characters' behaviour here, but I don't subscribe to that (and also don't like it when the characters do it on the show) as a way to understand a truly loving relationship.  When you love your spouse or your children, you're supposed to do it unconditionally.  That doesn't mean that Beckett's choices aren't problematic and that she doesn't have to account for them with Castle, but I don't see how getting angry helps anything.  Responding with love and patience and trying to understand the other person is a million times better than an angry response in my book.

 

I don't see Castle as weak because he's not getting angry right now, or as a doormat because he's still trying to be there for Beckett, and to understand whatever it is she's going through.  A weaker man than him would have gotten angry and given up on Beckett and the marriage already.  It takes real strength to stick it through while it's hard and not completely understanding, and I think that strength is often underestimated.  I think Castle's big heart, both his capacity to love and to forgive, is often mistaken as weakness when it's actually the opposite.

 

If it were Alexis calling for a time out, I think Castle would respond in the same way.  He would never give up on his daughter, never stop trying to understand, to make things better.  It's the same with Beckett.  Isn't that the kind of love we all aspire to?

[Chado]

All this talk about how Castle should be acting, none about how Beckett should be acting.

 

People want Castle to remain there with his arms wide open, whilst Beckett walks in and out of her marriage whenever she feels like it. It's actually hilarious.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Chado

[FlickerToAFlame]

All this talk about how Castle should be acting, none about how Beckett should be acting.

Isn't that what we've been going around in repetitive circles about for weeks?

[Chado]

Isn't that what we've been going around in repetitive circles about for weeks?

I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic.

[371012]

At the risk of drowning in the deep end, I think a lot of what I am hearing is that Castle's response is in character...and mature. And also that Beckett's actions MIGHT have been in character 5 or 6 seasons ago but no longer are, and thus fundamentally do not make sense and the storyline is indicative of a major character regression. And that most of us both do not like the storyline for that reason and do not understand why the show runners did that. I would go so far as to say I get a general sense that a majority of us are disappointed with Kate's actions. To me that is close to a blanket statement of disapproval so I am not sure why that is interpreted as EVERYONE thinks she gets a pass. Not what I think, for sure. I think the majority of posters who have been around a while don't recognize Beckett this season. And it isn't just the wig...

And I meant to say RELATIVELY in character for Castle.

[Chado]

At the risk of drowning in the deep end, I think a lot of what I am hearing is that Castle's response is in character...and mature. And also that Beckett's actions MIGHT have been in character 5 or 6 seasons ago but no longer are, and thus fundamentally do not make sense and the storyline is indicative of a major character regression. And that most of us both do not like the storyline for that reason and do not understand why the show runners did that. I would go so far as to say I get a general sense that a majority of us are disappointed with Kate's actions. To me that is close to a blanket statement of disapproval so I am not sure why that is interpreted as EVERYONE thinks she gets a pass. Not what I think, for sure. I think the majority of posters who have been around a while don't recognize Beckett this season. And it isn't just the wig...

And I meant to say RELATIVELY in character for Castle.

You made a great post and I agree with 99% of it.

 

The only thing I would disagree with is that when you have posts that go into length to the reasons why Castle shouldn't be angry, how it's a mature response by him, how it's a sign of a healthy relationship and that it's not about keeping scores, etc etc etc. You can't then completely ignore Beckett's actions when describing why Castle should and shouldn't act a certain way. The two things don't happen in isolation. There is a difference between, or should be a difference between, how Castle responds when you look at how Beckett has treated him leading up to the point you're describing.

 

It's fanatical to talk about how Castle is being understanding, how he's acting the right way, when you don't even look at Beckett. Would you expect the same response from him, demand the same patience from him, if she was cheating on him? . Her behavior matters, her reactions matter, her own view on relationships in general matter. They all influence (or should) influence how you expect/want him to respond. There was a key moment in the last episode. Castle believes lies and secrets ruin a relationship, Beckett believes a strong relationship can survive anything. Her mentality is encouraging her current actions of taking advantage of him. Why should Castle not get angry, when he views lies and secrets in such a negative manner when he speaks about a relationship?

 

He isn't "weak" if he ever does show anger. He has a right to his emotions. He has a right to answers. What happens if this lasts a year? Does he "get" to be angry then? Does he "deserve" answers then?

 

There's a fine line between being the most robotic human being ever who shows undying faith and understanding without doubt, and then a guy that is married and letting his wife walk all over him without explanation.

 

He isn't "wrong" or "weak" once he shows emotion, people are expecting/wanting perfection or complete rationale behavior from him, whilst Beckett is being a complete lunatic.

 

I just don't get it.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Chado

[verdana]

It would be human to be angry given the situation, but I think that's neither the most constructive nor the most loving response.  There's a lot of keeping score and playing the blame game in the discussion of characters' behaviour here, but I don't subscribe to that (and also don't like it when the characters do it on the show) as a way to understand a truly loving relationship.  When you love your spouse or your children, you're supposed to do it unconditionally.  That doesn't mean that Beckett's choices aren't problematic and that she doesn't have to account for them with Castle, but I don't see how getting angry helps anything.  Responding with love and patience and trying to understand the other person is a million times better than an angry response in my book.

 

I don't see Castle as weak because he's not getting angry right now, or as a doormat because he's still trying to be there for Beckett, and to understand whatever it is she's going through.  A weaker man than him would have gotten angry and given up on Beckett and the marriage already.  It takes real strength to stick it through while it's hard and not completely understanding, and I think that strength is often underestimated.  I think Castle's big heart, both his capacity to love and to forgive, is often mistaken as weakness when it's actually the opposite.

 

If it were Alexis calling for a time out, I think Castle would respond in the same way.  He would never give up on his daughter, never stop trying to understand, to make things better.  It's the same with Beckett.  Isn't that the kind of love we all aspire to?

The idea of unconditional love and what that truly means in a relationship, to love another person without any conditions/limitations attached? That's a hard one for me to get comfortable with, I've always felt there should be limits which could mean I'm emotionally stunted and too hard and cynical for my own good. I don't have children so I can't talk from experience there but it's much easier for me to understand the situation if it was Alexis because she's his child, that must be the strongest emotional bond you can have and Castle should love his daughter above everything. 

 

But with a spouse or partner, the idea you should never give up on that person and always try to be understanding of their actions sounds wonderful but how far do you take that in a relationship before it becomes a case of one person taking advantage of the other person's faith and love even if done subconsciously? There surely has to come a point where you draw a line in the sand otherwise a couple get into an unhealthy and impractical situation. I should be satisfied with how Castle is dealing with Beckett because he's not acting as he did previously when he became horribly passive aggressive towards her but unfortunately the execution of this story is so woeful I'm left increasingly frustrated by his apparent passive acceptance of the status quo. 

[Chado]

I feel the same way Verdana, you're not alone.

 

I also agree about the Alexis v Beckett comparison, it isn't the same.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Chado

[verdana]

There was a key moment in the last episode. Castle believes lies and secrets ruin a relationship, Beckett believes a strong relationship can survive anything. Her mentality is encouraging her current actions of taking advantage of him.

 

 

I'm intrigued how the writers plan to bring together such disparate viewpoints between them without someone having to be proved wrong at the end of the day, I have to admit I'm with Castle on this one but they could ignore the whole thing of course, you think it's a key moment...but not necessarily. I've been misled before into thinking something is vitally important to the characters which will play out later and it's not.  

Edited November 19, 2015 by verdana

[oberon55]

I'm intrigued how the writers plan to bring together such disparate viewpoints between them without someone having to be proved wrong at the end of the day, I have to admit I'm with Castle on this one but they could ignore the whole thing of course, you think it's a key moment...but not necessarily. I've been misled before into thinking something is vitally important to the characters which will play out later and it's not.  

They have really pushed the secrets angle this season. They had Beckett explicitly tell Castle "no more secrets" moments before she started keeping secrets. They had a whole episode dedicated to pathological liars. Now they have Castle saying secrets destroy a relationship. That is a lot of buildup to just ignore it all in the end. As far as Castle getting angry goes it would be normal if he did. It would not mean he did not love her. People get mad at someone they love every day. His Buddha like acceptance is completely plot driven. If he got frustrated with the situation like 99% of the people on the planet would there would be no story. Once again they have twisted their characters into unbelievable shapes for manufactured angst. I have a hard time defending either Beckett or Castle because their actions & motivations make absolutely no sense to me. For me the one in the wrong is the writer or show runner that came up with this awful idea.

[verdana]

You don't call timeout on a relationship. It's childish. It's so far from sane and loving and caring and honest, that I can't believe it's being used as a device to bring two people closer together who were already in a loving relationship.

In doing my weekly trawl of various sites to see what folks are thinking, one woman said her husband watched the episode with her then turned around and said "I've never heard of any one getting a time off of marriage", the hubby makes a good point. 

[pepper]

 

People want Castle to remain there with his arms wide open, whilst Beckett walks in and out of her marriage whenever she feels like it. It's actually hilarious.

Castle can walk away. And obviously, if he felt the way you do, he would. Some people understand there are reasons why he does not. Reasons that do not make him a doormat. A doormat cannot walk away. His wife isn't a "serial philanderer" or any of the other posited reasons why walking away would be the only self-respecting choice. She almost got killed during a case and then she walked away from her marriage. He knows there's more to the story and he accepts for the time being that she isn't ready to tell him, or can't tell him.

 

The only significant factor is time. Eventually, an emotionally healthy man will get to the point where he needs and demands that his wife be present in their marriage or explain why she is not. But I think he is still at the stage where he knows his wife well enough to give her time and space to work through whatever is going on. He himself has gone off to do dangerous things which, in hindsight, may not have been wise. They have been through a lot together and I'm just not even close to joining the cheering section for them to go their separate ways. The only reason I'm still here is for both of them on my screen at the same time. 

 

And as the last person to use the word "hater", I think it's fair to point out that I did not use it as an alternative to responding to a criticism of the character. I used it in the context of pointing out that the character was being criticized for doing something, when she'd likely have been criticized even more for doing the opposite! Either way, major criticism would rain down upon her. In fact, I think it's reasonable to say that she will be able to do no right until the Locksat storyline is resolved. And no doubt, even then, her apologies will not be abject enough. So yeah, hate.

[WendyCR72]

Let me put this as plainly as I can:

 

This is not a hater board. This is also not a fan board.

 

It is a message board for civil discussions with all points of view. Which means there will be those that love a character and are willing to accept everything they say and do and there are those who won't. It makes neither side a hater or "fangirl/fanboy".

 

So, let's accept that there will be differences of POV, respect it, and move forward.

 

Thanks!

[pepper]

 

She solves Loksat and goes back to Castle. Does she keep the reason for her separation from him? Does he just accept that suddenly she's only too happy to come back? Should he not ask any questions THEN?

I don't think anybody's said that...

 

But Castle arranged his own kidnapping for reasons he chose never to share, so maybe he'll decide it doesn't matter.

[verdana]

oberon. Oh I agree it should mean something later on but at this point nothing would surprise me with these writers, the story could go in any direction, I realise that I'm not on the same wavelength as Hawley and Winter when it comes to "fun"  entertaining and organic storytelling after listening to their views on what make this show tick. 
 
I also agree that having Castle behaving so passively is entirely plot driven and if he acted like any normal person to these events we wouldn't have had to wait until now to get some movement on the story, Kate's secret investigation would have been over with before it even had a chance to begin.

Edited November 19, 2015 by verdana

[KaveDweller]

Just to add to the discussion about unconditional love, you can love someone and still choose to not be with them because it isn't healthy for you. Like if you were in love with a drug addict who refused continually to get help, eventually you may leave them despite still loving them.

Now with Castle the separation has been going on for less than two months, which for him may not meet his threshold for deciding to leave. It's different for everyone.

Nobody is calling for the end of the relationship, but they are saying that one person seems to be working on trying to make the relationship work, while the other keeps using the word "timeout."

Well Castle is actually the one that started calling it a timeout. I expected better from the writer....

Edited November 19, 2015 by KaveDweller

[KaveDweller]

Yes asking her for more details would be great and pretty normal in that situation. He did it in PhDead and I really liked that about. But I guess he had to stop so the plot wouldn't progress?

[CastleSeason8]

Yes asking her for more details would be great and pretty normal in that situation. He did it in PhDead and I really liked that about. But I guess he had to stop so the plot wouldn't progress?

It is so unbelievably frustrating to me that everyone can see that except the showrunners.

[Bubbi63]

I have been glued to this thread as I find it very interesting.  So many valid points.  To the point of meeting ones spouse with understanding and hope instead of anger when one partner creates a seismic change in the relationship is fine assuming the other partner has some idea of what he is understanding!  Castle does not even know what has made this tough time--only that the woman he loves above all else has walked out on him and has yet to give one answer to his questions that makes sense.

 

If the writers had a clue who these characters are this split would be over because Castle would not have waited this long to begin investigating to figure this out. KB is not acting out of love and Castle is acting from a place of being lost and grabbing hold of anything he can including sex with no strings. How sad that must be for him and even her as it rips at the very foundation of their marriage vows.  But only one of them knows the reason why and in that sense KB is taking advantage of Castle--not the booty call but relying on his goodness, kindness and great love for her. She is counting on it. 

 

The writers have written KB as totally selfish and Castle as pathetic thus far and I am being nice. He can love unconditionally and be understanding while still getting angry--not the stomp your feet anger but more of the deep anger that comes from being hurt once he realizes that Locsat is more important to her than their marriage.  How the writers are going to write them out of this box with any credibility is beyond me. I suspect they will not--he will figure it out and he will get involved all the while she pushes him away and some life or death scenario will bring them back together and all being for given. 

 

If the writers do manage to create twists and turns that manage to come together I am afraid it will be to little to late for this viewer. IMO Castle should never have jumped in the sack with her it speaks of desperation and KB should not have even gone to the loft knowing full well where her husbands heart and mind are and what would likely transpire.  A call to meet in public for dinner would have been the kinder way for her to go if doing anything at all.  She got what she wanted--Castle is still her puppy but did he?

[oberon55]

Yes asking her for more details would be great and pretty normal in that situation. He did it in PhDead and I really liked that about. But I guess he had to stop so the plot wouldn't progress?

One of the key components of this ridiculous storyline is Castle's ignorance. Once he finds out that she is pursuing another evil overlord he almost has to take a stand. Not only has she picked solving a case over him & their marriage but she is putting herself in serious jeopardy. It would be too silly even on this show for him to just blithely go about trying to win Beckett back while she could be in mortal danger. So I don't expect Castle to get any real answers until they are close to the end of this poorly conceived story arc.

[verdana]

Just to add to the discussion about unconditional love, you can love someone and still choose to not be with them because it isn't healthy for you. Like if you were in love with a drug addict who refused continually to get help, eventually you may leave them despite still loving them.

Yeah that's kind of what I was thinking about, there's always a point of no return in any relationship.

 

Now with Castle the separation has been going on for less than two months, which for him may not meet his threshold for deciding to leave. It's different for everyone.

I couldn't imagine ending things with my partner after a few months of relationship troubles but equally I couldn't imagine not asking him what was going on if he walked out with no explanation and refused to say anything for that long. Let alone countenance the idea that I would follow him around every day acting as if everything is okay, it's complete nonsense.

 

Well Castle is actually the one that started calling it a timeout. I expected better from the writer....

May be he needs to leave Alexis and Hayley to solving his PI cases and get back to writing full time again. I believe TPW can be blamed ultimately for the dreaded "time out" phrase and it's his birthday today so Happy Birthday Mr Winter, hope he's having a good time responding to all the fans wishing him many happy returns on twitter that he dislikes using so much lol.

Edited November 19, 2015 by verdana

[verdana]

She got what she wanted--Castle is still her puppy but did he?

He's definitely still her puppy and may be I need to accept the fact he's happy to be one, plus he got laid and had dinner brought to him, although not much of one by the looks of the size of that takeaway bag from Remys heh.

[Bubbi63]

He's definitely still her puppy and may be I need to accept the fact he's happy to be one, plus he got laid and had dinner brought to him, although not much of one by the looks of the size of that takeaway bag from Remys heh.

Yeah--do you think he got Cheeseburgers and Mac and Cheese? hummm

[KaveDweller]

I couldn't imagine ending things with my partner after a few months of relationship troubles but equally I couldn't imagine not asking him what was going on if he walked out with no explanation and refused to say anything for that long. Let alone countenance the idea that I would follow him around every day acting as if everything is okay, it's complete nonsense.

 

But see, you aren't controlled by bad to mediocre TV writers. You're allowed to be logical and act like a normal person.

 

He's definitely still her puppy and may be I need to accept the fact he's happy to be one, plus he got laid and had dinner brought to him, although not much of one by the looks of the size of that takeaway bag from Remys heh.

 

No way someone with Beckett's figure eats fast food. The world can't be that unfair. So it must have only been dinner for Castle and she'd eat one french fry or something.

[femmefan1946]

Kate knows for certain that if she is with Rick and tells him about Locksat, he will investigate

 

Okay. But since she is with Rick in every way EXCEPT living in his loft, she might as well saved the rent on wherever she is living now, and gone on with her new normal routine, sneaking in time spent on Locksat as some overtime police work.

Really, all she has to do is say," I've got a lot of paperwork, babe, wanna help?" and the Rick we know would be out of there like a shot.

 

I'm still holding out for 'off her meds' and that Locksat is totally a hallucination. Even if Vikram did move to New York from DC after the trauma of having his FBI team killed around him. 

Or maybe she met the new guy and hallucinated everything around him including DC.

[KaveDweller]

Kate knows for certain that if she is with Rick and tells him about Locksat, he will investigate

 

Okay. But since she is with Rick in every way EXCEPT living in his loft, she might as well saved the rent on wherever she is living now, and gone on with her new normal routine, sneaking in time spent on Locksat as some overtime police work.

Really, all she has to do is say," I've got a lot of paperwork, babe, wanna help?" and the Rick we know would be out of there like a shot.

 

I'm still holding out for 'off her meds' and that Locksat is totally a hallucination. Even if Vikram did move to New York from DC after the trauma of having his FBI team killed around him. 

Or maybe she met the new guy and hallucinated everything around him including DC.

 

Would staying with Castle, but lying to him every day been any better? Maybe it makes her feel less guilty to have left? Or like if she left him she doesn't have to stick to the no secrets thing.

 

If Locksat was a hallucination it would explain why Castle doesn't suspect her leaving him is related to Locksat. He doesn't know she thinks there's a new big bad.

 

Does anyone else think it's weird how often she's suddenly calling him Rick. She used it in XX and the Nose, and then twice in this episode. I think that's more than the past three seasons combined. I mean, it's nice to hear it, but kind of weird she chooses now to start.

[Thak]

 

I'm still holding out for 'off her meds' and that Locksat is totally a hallucination. Even if Vikram did move to New York from DC after the trauma of having his FBI team killed around him.

Or maybe she met the new guy and hallucinated everything around him including DC.

 

Or, Castle is still floating in that boat after taking his meds to help him cover up what he was doing while saving the world, and his wedding to Kate and Locksat is all his hallucination.  Many possibilities.

 

Wonder if Rita was involved with his disappearance?

[CastleSeason8]

Or, Castle is still floating in that boat after taking his meds to help him cover up what he was doing while saving the world, and his wedding to Kate and Locksat is all his hallucination. Many possibilities.

Wonder if Rita was involved with his disappearance?

Better yet, since these guys love Seasons 2/3/4, Kate wakes up from being shot... Edited November 20, 2015 by CastleSeason8

[verdana]

Does anyone else think it's weird how often she's suddenly calling him Rick. She used it in XX and the Nose, and then twice in this episode. I think that's more than the past three seasons combined. I mean, it's nice to hear it, but kind of weird she chooses now to start.

Being cynical as I am I wonder if it's a combination of the writers throwing a mini bone to the fans because they know we love it when she calls him that whilst also trying to emphasize how much she cares for Castle and is only doing this for him etc. She only calls him Rick usually during serious situations or when they want to signify some kind of special closeness that I can recall. I do like hearing her use it though because we hear it so rarely but right now the sudden use of it feels a bit forced.

But see, you aren't controlled by bad to mediocre TV writers. You're allowed to be logical and act like a normal person.

Ha! Yes so true. Sigh

Edited November 20, 2015 by verdana

[Rockstar99435]

I always forget that Ryan isn't his first name so when Expo yelled out "KEVIN!", my immediate reaction was "Who the fuck is Kevin?"

[madmaverick]

I was hoping to hear Beckett call him Rick a while ago because it felt like ages since she last did, and he'd been calling her Kate.  But now the sudden more frequent use of it feels a bit weird.  Not that I'm really complaining about it (there are a lot more bigger things to complain about, right? ;)).  Hayley also calling Castle 'Rick' takes away from the special-ness of Beckett being the one to call him that though.  It's like the coffee thing.  I prefer it when it's exclusively theirs.

 

Yes, Alexis' hair was looking really orange in the office.  Had me thinking that she should be playing Mary Jane in Spiderman or something.  I have no idea about these things but did they colour Molly's original red hair some more?  Why?  Then again, I have no idea why they do so much stuff to Stana's hair either and bother with wigs etc.  Still takes getting used to seeing Susan in her natural blonde state, which is weird, because I knew her as an actress with blond hair first.  Can't imagine having to wear a wig at work for years on end but I suppose it's different for actors with stepping into a new wardrobe and character.

 

As for the rest, I think everything that could be said on Castle/Beckett has been said.  And it'll probably all be revisited with the same arguments after the next episode. ;)  All I'll say is that while I was making the point that I personally believe it's better to meet a loved one with (unconditional) love and patience and understanding than anger, that's not to say that Beckett is excused at all from taking responsibility and making amends for her choices which have been hurtful towards Castle and their marriage.  I definitely need her to have awareness that she made a selfish, unfair decision that she had no right to exclude her partner in life from, even if she thought she had good intentions. And yes, loving someone unconditionally doesn't mean you should enable harmful and hurtful behaviour either.  And yes, sometimes love isn't enough to sustain a relationship.  You need trust and communication and a lot of other things too.  Castle may have been trying a certain approach with his wife till now, that's not to say that his patience will be unlimited and he won't try something else in the future (when the writers want him to! ;)).  Whenever we next have insight into where Castle and Beckett's heads are at, in my opinion, it's also worth bearing in mind their characters and their relationship dynamic as we assess their action and reactions, not just our own personal choices about how we would react in their situation.  

[Chado]

How do you possibly assess their actions and reactions to an agreed upon base line when their characters completely mutate into whatever the storyline demands of them? - There wouldn't be any 2 people on this forum that share the same view of Castle and Beckett, so this argument isn't going anywhere.

 

Also just saying, but if the show remains true to form, we will never see her making amends for her terrible decisions, which means this unbalanced relationship will never correct itself.  ;)

[madmaverick]

Not excusing the writers at all, but I already factor in plot being put above character in my assessment of the show so perhaps I don't get quite get as up in arms as others do about storylines anymore.  It's nothing new for the show, for past or present showrunners.

 

Some people will always be judging the characters (and the actors ;)); it's probably human nature.  All I'm saying is, it's not always the most constructive approach to a happy ending to adopt a constantly judgmental and combative tone either within the confines of a fictional spousal relationship or in real life relationships.  Even on the internet. ;)  There's too little of trying to understand the other's point of view.  Makes it harder to find common ground.  But that's my opinion.  And I'm certainly not a doormat.  

Edited November 20, 2015 by madmaverick

[verdana]

SweetTooth. I don't disagree with your points, especially about so called "unconditional" love. madmaverick is right these showrunners aren't doing anything different than what's been done before sadly, the show is hidebound by plot driven storytelling and the characters will suffer accordingly frequently getting twisted into knots at the behest of a story that's poorly placed and plotted out. 

 

But I've come to the depressing realisation that the writers are simply terrible at writing decent relationship drama between two mature adults and watching them deal with those issues and have that play out on screen in such a way I feel empathy for them which I thought was the general idea.  So this is what you get instead, a garbled mess where everyone gets screwed one way or another and that includes the viewer. Sigh

Edited November 22, 2015 by verdana

[madmaverick]

SweetTooth, I never said either character was perfect.  What works for them may not work for everybody.  Indeed, it's unlikely to as every relationship has its own unique dynamic.  You see Castle as accepting "scraps", I see him as choosing to keep the faith and hope in his wife and their relationship for the moment, despite the challenging situation.  After all they've been through, he's not ready to bail yet.  He could have gotten angry and demanded answers from the time she asked for a separation, but would that have gotten him anywhere (that he wanted to go)?  Not necessarily.  Guess we'll never know.  In his mind, perhaps by allowing Beckett some time to work out whatever and then getting his answers, he may believe he has a better chance of getting somewhere with her or she'll come to realise the folly of her decision.  For the moment, he's choosing to have faith and have hope and that's very Castle in a way.  Will that faith and hope be limitless?  Probably not, even for a man who loves generously like Castle.  There'll come a time where he reaches his limit and asks for answers.  Hasn't happened yet, but maybe it'll happen in the next episode as per the writers' schedule. ;)   I hope Castle's faith and hope will be justified, and that Beckett can also earn back his trust and repair the damage.  Whatever happens may or may not be enough for you or me, but it may be enough for them and that's OK to me.

 

I don't think anything more can be gained from revisiting this debate further until we see what the next episode delivers.

[RustbeltWriter]

I enjoyed the episode until Vikram showed up and I had to try and remember why Castle and Kate aren't together and then I remembered it was too stupid to commit to long term memory and I ate yogurt instead.

[TWP]

I don't think finding common ground is really necessary when it comes to a TV show. It's fine to love it, hate-watch it, and everything in between. And it's fine to vent about it when it's frustrating. Many Castle forums don't allow much criticism. This is one of the rare ones that does. Thank goodness. Remember the roots - TV WITHOUT pity.  I never criticize people for liking any show. It baffles me that people criticize those who feel a need to vent while watching the demise of a show that once had so much promise.

 

Another word for doormat -- co-dependent -- someone who continually comes back to feed at the trough of unhappiness that another person creates for them. That is Castle. At some point people have to let go of the addict for their own sanity. You can't save them until they're ready to save themself. And I agree. If Castle were my friend, I'd advise him that he'll never find happiness with Beckett. A return to the relationship would be contingent upon her seeking long-term therapy, just as with any addict.

[KaveDweller]

Another word for doormat -- co-dependent -- someone who continually comes back to feed at the trough of unhappiness that another person creates for them. That is Castle. At some point people have to let go of the addict for their own sanity. You can't save them until they're ready to save themself. And I agree. If Castle were my friend, I'd advise him that he'll never find happiness with Beckett. A return to the relationship would be contingent upon her seeking long-term therapy, just as with any addict.

 

Doesn't co-dependent imply that both people continually come back to feed off the unhappiness? 

 

I was rewatching last week's episode, and I realized it's kind of sad that Castle and Beckett go and cancel their anniversary plans to talk to Ryan/Espo, then actually give them good advice, when neither Ryan or Esposito has said a word to either Castle or Beckett about what's going on with their marriage. They even had to be talked into helping Castle set up his surprise. I know it's a bad idea to step into someone else's marriage, but they're supposed to be good friends. Even Slaughter gave more advice than Ryan/Espo.

 

I know it's all for plot purposes, but it still seems wrong.

[KaveDweller]

I think I said this exact same thing when everyone kind of casually mentioned they were separated, as if it was no big deal. Like, "Oh,  yeah. Bummer. So, who wants lunch?" 

 

Someone suggested, as you said, that it's not good for a co-worker to get involved in that stuff, but these people have their lives wrapped up in each other. They've shared very personal stuff and helped each other through quite a lot.

 

I didn't have as much an issue with it at the beginning of the season because it was new and people could have the excuse of thinking they'd work it out on their own in a week or so.  But now that's it's dragged on for so long it's becoming harder to believe. Especially when you just had Caskett giving the boys personal advice and neither of them came back relating it to their marriage. 

 

And has Lanie even talked to Beckett since episode 3?

 

Yes. That is a co-dependent relationship. So, Beckett keeps sabotaging the relationship, and Castle keeps just accepting it and trying to win back her love, she comes back,, and they start the cycle again.

It's the very definition of a dysfunctional relationship.

 

I think it's a little early to call it totally dysfunctional. What she's doing isn't healthy, clearly, but it isn't actually a pattern of unhealthy behavior in the relationship. She had issues with her mom's case before, but that was before they were a couple.  Since they got together things had been really stable and she was in control of her "obsession."  Castle even made sure of that when they first got together. So if they resolve it with Beckett recognizing she's in the wrong and trying to make amends, I think they can work their way back to a healthy spot. If they don't then I don't know what the hell the writers are thinking, because that's just sabotaging their own show.

 

I have seen some actual dysfunctional/toxic relationships, and they are way worse than anything that's been shown with Caskett.

Edited November 24, 2015 by KaveDweller