Anya

[Guest]

On 2/11/2019 at 12:55 AM, lembergwatcher said:

OTOH, Anya is much less annoying than Buffy in season 7.

I actually thought she was more annoying in S7. Especially when she called Buffy lucky for being the Slayer. She was there when Buffy died and she thought Buffy was lucky, because she had to fight evil every day? 

[lembergwatcher]

24 minutes ago, MythTaken said:

I actually thought she was more annoying in S7. Especially when she called Buffy lucky for being the Slayer.

Anya's comment with regard to Buffy's alleged "luck" might have been totally inappropriate, but her words are usually taken out of context. And they are sometimes used to disregard the main point of Anya's speech, i.e. Buffy is no better than the rest of them. Maybe you see it differently, but IMO Buffy's power and uniqueness do not give her a carte blanche to treat her friends and allies like crap.

As for annoying-ness, I dare say Buffy's fixation on Spike alone is 1000 more repulsive than any stupid thing Anya did or said throughout the seventh season. Not to mention bashing Willow behind her back because she couldn't properly perform her duties as Buffy's Wicca soldier, saying nasty things about Chloe after she commited suicide, telling Wood she'll let his mother's killer kill him as well, insulting friends and potentials by calling Spike "the one person that's been watching my back" or trying to send Xander and Dawn away ahead of the final battle. All of this is much worse in book.  

[Joe Hellandback]

23 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Anya's comment with regard to Buffy's alleged "luck" might have been totally inappropriate, but her words are usually taken out of context. And they are sometimes used to disregard the main point of Anya's speech, i.e. Buffy is no better than the rest of them. Maybe you see it differently, but IMO Buffy's power and uniqueness do not give her a carte blanche to treat her friends and allies like crap.

As for annoying-ness, I dare say Buffy's fixation on Spike alone is 1000 more repulsive than any stupid thing Anya did or said throughout the seventh season. Not to mention bashing Willow behind her back because she couldn't properly perform her duties as Buffy's Wicca soldier, saying nasty things about Chloe after she commited suicide, telling Wood she'll let his mother's killer kill him as well, insulting friends and potentials by calling Spike "the one person that's been watching my back" or trying to send Xander and Dawn away ahead of the final battle. All of this is much worse in book.  

Yes, that's how I always read it, Anya is the cynic of the group and provides a little bit of necessary dramatic friction with the lovey dovey Scoobs.  

[Halting Hex]

23 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

As for annoying-ness, I dare say Buffy's fixation on Spike alone is 1000 more repulsive than any stupid thing Anya did or said throughout the seventh season.

Of course, of the two of them, it was Anya who was constantly throwing herself at Spike.  Including once (Sleeper) when they're in Xander's apartment, which is just tacky, IMO.

(Then again, later on, Anya and Xander fuck on Spike's cot, so clearly Anya doesn't care about the two guys' boundaries.  Maybe she's trying to set up a threesome?  Since she was denied that Scruffy/Suave sandwich back in The Replacement, after all.)

[lembergwatcher]

12 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Of course, of the two of them, it was Anya who was constantly throwing herself at Spike.

We can hardly blame Anya for throwing herself at Spike because: 1) that's her nature; 2) some pesky Slayer allowed Spike's existence assuming the role of his defense attorney throughout the season.

[lembergwatcher]

Making all those "The Most Annoying Things About Anya" lists is kinda tedious task, I know.

But one thing does stand out - at least from my POV. I mean, the way she (sometimes absolutely) fails to complete any of her current challenges.

How many attempts did Anya make to get her demonic powers back after her fiasco in Doppelgangland? Aren't 1100-years-old demons supposed to do whatever it takes, cross every line in order to achieve their goals? Even Spike's managed to hold out, dreaming about getting rid of the sodding chip, for almost seventeen episodes. Our working gal though seems to give up ridiculously quickly. The only thing she's able to come up with are her constant nostalgic sighs for the days long gone. What kind of "demon" is that?

Anya's attempts to totally distance Xander from the rest of the SG (don't tell me her following Xander like an umbilical cord almost 24/7 has other explanations) only partially succeeds despite the (ex)demon's numerous advantages. As we can see even regular sex is not enough to make the guy Anya's 100%.

Finally, she's so lame and lazy she fails miserably to get back at Xander properly after the Great Wedding Fiasco of 2002. Even the biggest humiliation cannot make Anya do her best when it comes to her supposed craft. She tries to ruin her former fiance's life, but doesn't come up with anything better than going to Buffy, Willow & Tara. Yes, she did hurt Xander eventually, but sexfest with Spike was hardly a devastating blow for our Zeppo boy.

Apparently, the writers were so desperate to put Anya into Xander's bed and then co-opt her into the gang they forgot some key things regarding demons, i.e. those species do not tend to give up even after numerous setbacks. In a world where power is literally everything Anya's willingness to trade it for something mundane means she is absolutely bad even dealing with the things she's supposed to be "good" at. 

[Halting Hex]

22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Even Spike's managed to hold out, dreaming about getting rid of the sodding chip, for almost seventeen episodes.

A little longer; the journey from The Initiative (Spike discovers he's chipped) to Out of My Mind (Spike tries to rid himself of the chip, via surgery-at-crossbow-point) covers 20 episodes, inclusive.

22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Anya's attempts to totally distance Xander from the rest of the SG (don't tell me her following Xander like an umbilical cord almost 24/7 has other explanations)

I think I can come down a bit less on the "Anya doesn't like the Scoobs and tells Xander he's better off without them" side and a bit more on the "Anya clings onto her boyfriend because she has nothing else in her life" side, here.  Because Anya does eventually make a life of her own, at the Magic Box.  If she'd been solely motivated to get rid of the Scoobs because she wanted Xander all to herself, she wouldn't have done that.

Not that this makes her any less annoying, IMO.  She treats the Box like a boyfriend she's overly-protective of, as we see with her bitterness towards Willow in Same Time, So Dull.  (Seriously, what kind of über-capitalist doesn't know the value of proper insurance, ffs?  Especially with "this being Sunnydale, and all…"  Anya should have had the shop back up and running again before her "birthday" on the 4th of July.)

[Loandbehold]

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Not that this makes her any less annoying, IMO.  She treats the Box like a boyfriend she's overly-protective of, as we see with her bitterness towards Willow in Same Time, So Dull.  (Seriously, what kind of über-capitalist doesn't know the value of proper insurance, ffs?  Especially with "this being Sunnydale, and all…"  Anya should have had the shop back up and running again before her "birthday" on the 4th of July.)

Insurance may pay for "Acts of God," but, especially in Sunnydale, companies will not pay for "Acts of Demons, Witches, Vampires, Werewolves, and Mummy Hands."*

*This list is not inclusive of all supernatural beings and events, but the policy still does not pay for damages caused by any and all supernatural occurrences.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Loandbehold

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I think I can come down a bit less on the "Anya doesn't like the Scoobs and tells Xander he's better off without them" side and a bit more on the "Anya clings onto her boyfriend because she has nothing else in her life" side, here.

I always thought Anya was only fired from Vengeance Inc., not banished from the demonic community entirely. She had Halfrek and many others, there's been no shortage of demonic species who agreed to attend the wedding, after all. She could've hooked up with some well-muscled Fyarl demon or traveled through different dimensions. Lots of fun and plenty of opportunities even if Xander told her to sod off the moment Anya came and asked to remove the clothing, I must say.

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

She treats the Box like a boyfriend she's overly-protective of, as we see with her bitterness towards Willow in Same Time, So Dull.

Actually, I'm a little bit surprised Anya didn't sue Willow for monetary compensation or threaten her with some "punitive damages" (like she did in Dawn's case). She could have tried to make Willow work for her in order to compensate for the damage... 

[Halting Hex]

2 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

She could have tried to make Willow work for her in order to compensate for the damage... 

Or…other things.

(Hey, Willow's single and Anya is Not Getting Any, all year long.  Sure, making Willow "take it out in trade" may be, you know, rape…but this is the show that makes "heroes" out of Spike and Andrew, so…)

[Guest]

On 2/12/2019 at 7:14 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Anya's comment with regard to Buffy's alleged "luck" might have been totally inappropriate, but her words are usually taken out of context. And they are sometimes used to disregard the main point of Anya's speech, i.e. Buffy is no better than the rest of them. Maybe you see it differently, but IMO Buffy's power and uniqueness do not give her a carte blanche to treat her friends and allies like crap.

As for annoying-ness, I dare say Buffy's fixation on Spike alone is 1000 more repulsive than any stupid thing Anya did or said throughout the seventh season. Not to mention bashing Willow behind her back because she couldn't properly perform her duties as Buffy's Wicca soldier, saying nasty things about Chloe after she commited suicide, telling Wood she'll let his mother's killer kill him as well, insulting friends and potentials by calling Spike "the one person that's been watching my back" or trying to send Xander and Dawn away ahead of the final battle. All of this is much worse in book.  

I have nothing good to say about Buffy in S7 regarding Spike. I absolutely detested him and their relationship. They were awful and I especially despised the treatment of Robin, both from Spike and Buffy.  

I do disagree with your comment about Anya though and even if she did mean it that way, Buffy was the slayer. She had to take charge and lead the others. She wasn’t “better” than them as a person, but she was in charge and she had to dish out orders, including to young girls she knew would did under her leadership. The way the group treated her was vile, when all she was trying to do was keep everyone alive and save the world. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by MythTaken

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, MythTaken said:

I do disagree with your comment about Anya though and even if she did mean it that way, Buffy was the slayer. She had to take charge and lead the others. She wasn’t “better” than them as a person, but she was in charge and she had to dish out orders, including to young girls she knew would did under her leadership. The way the group treated her was vile, when all she was trying to do was keep everyone alive and save the world.

It's slightly OT, but I really can't understand: since when does "being the Slayer" equate to "being in charge"? Slayer is a muscle, a foot soldier (and always has been). If Buffy wanted to emulate an actual army so bad, she should have known the strongest and fastest warriors never lead other warriors, people with a brain, an insight and experience did. In which case Giles or Willow should have been in charge, not Buffy. Buffy was "in charge" only as long as her friends trusted her judgement. Eventually they started losing confidence in Buffy due to her ill treatment of others, stubborness and incompetence. The way I see it is this: what goes around comes around. And if you think the group treated Buffy vile, remember that everything could have turned out much worse for the Slayer if Giles wasn't too noble to retell Buffy's words about Spike as "the one person that's been watching my back".

Quote

BUFFY
(looks around) Look, I wish this could be a democracy. I really do. Democracies don't win battles. (Xander looks away) It's a hard truth, but there has to be a single voice. You need someone to issue orders and be reckless sometimes and not take your feelings into account. You need someone to lead you.

ANYA
(calmly) And it's automatically you. (looks at Buffy) You really do think you're better than we are.

Buffy may be the Slayer, but each and every one of her major battles was won with the help from her friends. It's the truth she started to forget...

[lembergwatcher]

From Emma Caulfield's wikipedia page:

Quote

Originally, her character was only to appear for two episodes. However, audiences responded well to Anya, resulting in Buffy the Vampire Slayer creator Joss Whedon's decision to add her to the main cast.

Apparently Joss had the audience fooled since Anya from The Wish and Doppelgangland is very far from what her character turned into after becoming recurring/regular in the show. 

I don't understand why most characters have to be bad/evil to look cool/interesting in the eyes of the audience, but I clearly prefer evil Anya from 3.09 and 3.16 over annoying and ridiculous one from most episodes throughout seasons 4-7. In fact, if they kept Anya the way she was in The Wish/Doppelgangland, without the whole "clueless alien in the world of humans" or "Anya cannot live without Xander's dick" concepts, she could have been much more formidable nemesis for Buffy and the Scoobs than, say, Glory or the freaking Trio.

You are a big fat cheater, Joss Whedon, and you know it.

[lembergwatcher]

When you think about the beginning of Anya's long journey with the Scooby Gang in season 4, there seem to be either plot holes or many important things happening off-screen. Anya seduces Xander into fucking her in The Harsh Light of Day, then pays him a visit in Fear, Itself after a week-long absence. At least, this exchange proves my point: 

Quote

Anya:  “You haven’t called.  Not once.”
Xander:  “You said you were over me.”
Anya:  “And you just accepted that?  I only said that because I thought that’s what you wanted to hear.”
Xander:  “That’s the funny thing about me, I tend to hear the actual words people say and accept them at face value.”
Anya:  “That’s stupid.”
Xander:  “I accept that.  -  I can’t say seeing you falls into the realm of a bad thing.”
Anya smiles:  “Really?  -  I thought - maybe we could go out tonight, for our anniversary.”
Xander:  “Anniversary?”
Anya:  “It’s been exactly one week since we copulated. - Did you forget?”

From where I stand that clearly indicates Xander and Anya neither saw each other nor talked to each other on the phone for a whole week. Good thing. But some time later, while on the way to the "haunted house", Xander casually announces his intention to bring Anya to the Halloween frat party. He doesn't seem to be in the least bit concerned about Buffy's and Willow's possible reaction, which is quite odd. But the strangest thing is the lack of any reaction on behalf of the aforementioned characters.

Quote

Xander:  “Oh, yeah, I, ah, invited Anya to join us, but she’s having some trouble finding a scary costume, so she’s just going to meet us there.”
Buffy:  “Perfect, everybody’s got a date but third-wheel Buffy.”
Willow:  “You’re not a third wheel.”
Xander:  “Technically speaking you’re a fifth wheel.”

And that's it. Well, yeah, Buffy's iss-yews are more important, but... Why should B/W act like Xander dating former demon who caused lots of trouble several months earlier is a common thing? So what the hell happened in between S.04E.03 and S.04E.04?? Does one copulation mean that much to Xander, so he starts believing this to be the beginning of an actual relationship? Hilarious. Did he tell his friends about already "dating" Anya? And what was B/W/G/O possible reaction?
Two important questions without answers. (And we won't get any for the remainder of the series):

• Why did Xander start dating someone like Anya (a former vengence demon and a mass murderer)?
• Why did the other Scoobies act indifferent at best when the whole Xanya calamity started? Please don't sell me "they couldn't intervene into Xander's private affairs" crap, because with the Hellmouth beneath them such things had a tendency to become everyone's pain in the ass if left unchecked (Angelus crisis happened not so long ago, after all).

The hilarious things continue. Four episodes later, in Pangs Anya's presented as de-facto part of the Scooby Gang/Buffy's inner circle... What? How? Why? When? Four important questions. Does sleeping with a member of the Gang make someone a Scoobie? Then why not enlist Olivia (while she pays old Giles visits)? She's sane, at least. Being Xander's "orgasm buddy" cannot be viewed as an invitation to join the demon hunting group, you know... What the hell happened in between Initiative and Pangs? Anya is nowhere in sight in Beer Bad, Wild at Heart and Initiative, but she's a part of the gang in the very next episode. I don't understand why does Buffy all of a sudden feel obliged to invite someone like Anya to the Thanksgiving dinner? When did they become such close friends?..

Did the Powers That Suck start messing with everyone minds a year before Dawn came to town? For I can't find any plausible explanation for Buffy & Co acting so OOC and willingly hanging out with an evil being (even though Anya's powerless, she's still able to find other ways to hurt the gang and the lack of powers sure as hell doesn't mean she's not currently scheming to bring those powers back while the Scoobs' don't pay attention) who killed people for over millenium and caused havoc several months prior to the Thanksgiving Day.

[lembergwatcher]

Plus Anya is an example of a problem that became endemic on BtVS after the third season: all of the main characters are involved with other characters whose only purpose on the show is Buffy's Boyfriend or Willow's Girlfriend or Xander's Girlfriend. That's my main criticism of both Tara and Oz - that they had no existence beyond Willow, and all of their character traits were designed to show how suitable for Willow they were. And this problem is related to another problem, which is that the fact that the Scoobies all had third parties as their significant others was a primary reason why the writers stopped showing them interacting after the third season. The show split into three mini-shows with occasional crossover episodes.

And yet Anya is such a good character. She's cute and she's funny and she's the only person in the later seasons who ever tells Xander that he's worth anything, and the only time Willow ever appears to care about Xander is when Anya is around to be jealous of.

https://parcae-lj.livejournal.com/12905.html

[DisneyBoy]

So I just finished season 4 of the show and I don't know where things are going after this point, but so far I do find Anya a little bit annoying. I feel like she's kind of a Seven of Nine character in that she's blunt and discovering the world for the first time, but the show keeps using her in the same way which is to make blunt remarks that offend people or make sex jokes. It's annoying. I thought it would be kind of fun having a former demon as part of the cast, but I don't know that they've done enough with that concept yet. I'm still kind of baffled as to why Xander's involved with her when he seems to be so completely irritated with her. It's like the only two significant relationships he's had have both been about sex. He could sleep with Cordelia but wasn't so good at dating her. He's happy to sleep with Anya, but treats her like an annoying kid sister that he doesn't want to have anything to do with. Xander should be focusing on choosing a career that will get him out of his mother's basement and earn him a decent salary and make him feel fulfilled as a man, not keeping his friend with benefits at bay.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Anya in season 5 and if she deepens as a character in some way.

I did rather enjoy the one episode where she and Spike were commiserating about their lost loves and contemplating being evil again. It would seem only natural that they would have a bond, so hopefully the show explores that relationship a bit more.

[illdoc]

1 minute ago, DisneyBoy said:

He could sleep with Cordelia but wasn't so good at dating her.

Never slept with Cordelia (implied that they were going to, but got interrupted by a werewolf). He slept with Faith (and, in case there was doubt, it's made clear that he lost his virginity to Faith). 

[lembergwatcher]

18 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

I did rather enjoy the one episode where she and Spike were commiserating about their lost loves and contemplating being evil again.

I always wanted Anya and Spike to become a couple. They have so much in common, after all. And I dislike both of them equally.

[Halting Hex]

This is for you, lemberg.  I was intrigued by the mention of that Bradley Cooper/Nick Brendon Kitchen Confidential interview way back when in another thread, tried to find the actual interview and failed (although I was able to track down that it was with Backstage), but in the course of my hunting realized that my switching browsers had lost me my link to the Waybacked TWoP archives.  As rereading my wit and wisdom is one of my favorite forms of time-wasting self-gratification building self-esteem, this worried me, but fortunately Reddit had a link to the LOST forum on that board, and from there it was easy as anything to find our own forum.And, in the "Boys and Girls and Love on Buffy" topic, I found this, with yours truly replying to another post:

Quote

Quote

Xander is a bit straight-laced, and so is somewhat embarrassed by Anya's casual talk about their sex life. But the bottom line is that they have a vigorous sex life that Anya very much enjoys. That's a compliment to Xander, not a denigration of him.

Well, there are various levels of humiliation/embarrassment. Yes, Anya proudly talking about their exploits with the vaulting horse is only an affront to Xander's privacy and the embarrassment he feels here can be dealt with fairly easily.

More problematic is the "erotic bathing". Even assuming that this is really referring to some fun in the tub and not, say, a bladder control problem that Xander's hiding from the Scoobs, this is IMO something that Xander feels humiliated to let people know he does, since unlike the "Ahn, shh!" that the training-room hijinx got, he feels the need to explain himself here. So that's more of a humiliation just "Anya spills the details", IMO.

Beyond that is the hen-pecking. Surely it must be terrible to be attacked for not being a good boyfriend just because you don't instantly side with Anya (even though she's being a heinous bitch in that scene, IMO, going off on Giles and Willow without provocation), but even beyond that is having to suffer the humiliation in public.

So, yeah, if Anya was just complimenting Xander's prowess (see "He's a Viking in the sack"), Xander wouldn't have a problem with it. Even generally over-sharing isn't so bad, but talking about stuff Xander wouldn't like to acknowledge? Telling him he's a crappy boyfriend? Telling him that in front of his friends? Pretty shitty, IMO.

And yeah, it may not be as bad as an interrupted wedding, but I just can't agree that the wedding walkaway is infinitely worse. I have to think that enduring years of this behavior is worse for Xander than one very bad day is for Anya.  

Although, I admit that I can't quite quantify the American Bridal Dream, since I haven't spent a lifetime dreaming of my "perfect day". But then, neither has Anya, who's been human barely three years at this point, and has made such a point of not conforming to other human norms that it's more than a little difficult for me to start boo-hooing over her supposed investment in this one particular human ritual.  

In fact, the only lifelong romantic dreams I can see Xander having broken are Willow's, which he does twice(in Innocence, Consequences) and both times she's having a civil, if somewhat pained, conversation with him within a few hours, and somehow, she doesn't try a dozen times to have his friends murder him or instantly screw Angel for revenge. Shocking, isn't it? I guess Willow didn't really care about him, after all. 

So, in conclusion, fuck you, Anya. Take your mangy stray heart that you want Xander to take care of and go get yourself sliced by a Bringer or something. Because now that I've thought about how much I don't care about you and your histrionics, I've discovered that I don't care even more than I didn't care before. 

In the words of Willy the Snitch, "don't say your old pal [Halting Hex] never did anything for you." 😀

[moonshine71]

On 12/21/2019 at 1:39 PM, illdoc said:

Never slept with Cordelia (implied that they were going to, but got interrupted by a werewolf). He slept with Faith (and, in case there was doubt, it's made clear that he lost his virginity to Faith). 

"Implied they were going to" its overstating it a bit. They were parked to make out. How far they would have gone is open to speculation, but I find if hard to believe that they were on there way to home plate in that moment, but after being interrupted that one time, they then NEVER did get there in almost a whole year following.

[Guest]

On 4/7/2019 at 8:23 PM, lembergwatcher said:

It's slightly OT, but I really can't understand: since when does "being the Slayer" equate to "being in charge"? Slayer is a muscle, a foot soldier (and always has been). If Buffy wanted to emulate an actual army so bad, she should have known the strongest and fastest warriors never lead other warriors, people with a brain, an insight and experience did. In which case Giles or Willow should have been in charge, not Buffy. Buffy was "in charge" only as long as her friends trusted her judgement. Eventually they started losing confidence in Buffy due to her ill treatment of others, stubborness and incompetence. The way I see it is this: what goes around comes around. And if you think the group treated Buffy vile, remember that everything could have turned out much worse for the Slayer if Giles wasn't too noble to retell Buffy's words about Spike as "the one person that's been watching my back".

Buffy may be the Slayer, but each and every one of her major battles was won with the help from her friends. It's the truth she started to forget...

Because Buffy was the one who had been on the frontline for 7 years. She was the one who had sacrificed her life to save the world. She was the one who was chosen to fight. The others didn’t have Buffy’s strength or determination. Just look at how they immediately started to follow Faith after they kicked Buffy out. None of them could lead. They hardly even bothered trying. They wanted a Slayer to show them the way and they chose poorly with Faith. 
 

As much as you enjoy insulting Buffy’s intellect (like you have in other posts) she was smart. Judging her emotional actions at the age of 17 (again, like you have in another post) does not mean she was not intelligent. 
 

Willow did not have the intelligence to lead an army of fighters. It’s ridiculous to pretend otherwise. You’re seriously suggesting that being booksmart, meant that Willow could lead an army of fighters? Come on. You cannot be this bias…

Giles never showed an ability to lead a group of fighters either. Again, having booksmarts doesn’t make someone good at leading. 
 

Buffy was a good leader and ultimately proven right. Her friends were ungrateful assholes, who had been used to freeloading from Buffy after S6. 

Edited February 18 by MythTaken

[Halting Hex]

Almost no military units are led by "the strongest fighter", for the excellent reason that fighters tend to, y'know, die.  That's why generals try to stay a bit away from the action, lest what happened to Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson (killed by his own sentry, panicking in the dark) as well as the man who gave him the nickname, Clair Bee (shot dead whilst trying to rally his troops by citing Jackson as an example ["Look at Jackson, standing like a stone wall!"]) happen to them.

Okay, so technically it already has happened to Buffy.  Twice.  Good thing she had "ungrateful assholes" who were willing to force antagonistic vampires to lead them into the Master's lair or have their body taken over, spew up snakes and risk having their soul ripped apart, huh?

(One might say that Generalissima Buffy treating her nearest and dearest like some Chloe-come-lately or a useless mass-murderer would make her the "ungrateful [orifice]" in the room, actually.)

Edited February 23 by Halting Hex

[Guest]

Who are you even quoting “strongest fighter” from? Who has said that the strongest fighter has to lead? That could count Faith, as well as Buffy. 
 

Ah yes, people can’t be ungrateful assholes if they have previously done something good. That’s how it works. Since the gang had previously helped Buffy, that totally means they were fine to kick her out of her own house. Nothing ungrateful there. Helping her out before totally negates their actions in S7. 
 

One might say that and one would be wrong. Treating the people following your lead like any other solider isn’t “ungrateful”. It’s tactical. 

[Halting Hex]

On 2/17/2024 at 9:19 PM, MythTaken said:

The others didn’t have Buffy’s strength

 

On 2/25/2024 at 8:30 PM, MythTaken said:

Who are you even quoting “strongest fighter” from?

Now you know.

[Halting Hex]

On 2/17/2024 at 9:19 PM, MythTaken said:

Her friends were ungrateful assholes, who had been used to freeloading from Buffy after S6. 

Willow (and Tara, RIP) had put in a considerable amount of unpaid Dawn-sitting while Buffy was taking her "summer vacation" after Very Pretty Crap.

If you want to reduce friendship to a balance sheet (which doesn't seem so "friendly", IMO), it could well be Buffy who owes Willow, not vice-versa.  It's not as if Ms. Rosenberg (whose parents still live in town and who still attends a university that presumably has her on scholarship) lacks housing options, after all.

As for Anya (ha, topic!), Buffy invited her in, back in Him.  If she wanted Anya to pay rent, that was the time to raise the subject.  Otherwise, Buffy's pulling a bait-and-switch, which is IMO unworthy of her.

[StewieGriffin]

I thought Anya was quite hilarious.  They needed her around once Cordelia left the show. Quite the contrast from when she played Brandon Walsh's uptight girlfriend on Beverly Hills, 90210.

[Guest]

On 2/28/2024 at 4:45 AM, Halting Hex said:

 

Now you know.

You only quoted part of the post. I said strength or determination. Buffy had multiple qualities that made her the better leader. 
 

I never said that the strongest had to be the leader, but since you had to leave out part of my post to back up your claim, you already knew that. 

[Guest]

On 2/28/2024 at 4:53 AM, Halting Hex said:

Willow (and Tara, RIP) had put in a considerable amount of unpaid Dawn-sitting while Buffy was taking her "summer vacation" after Very Pretty Crap.

If you want to reduce friendship to a balance sheet (which doesn't seem so "friendly", IMO), it could well be Buffy who owes Willow, not vice-versa.  It's not as if Ms. Rosenberg (whose parents still live in town and who still attends a university that presumably has her on scholarship) lacks housing options, after all.

As for Anya (ha, topic!), Buffy invited her in, back in Him.  If she wanted Anya to pay rent, that was the time to raise the subject.  Otherwise, Buffy's pulling a bait-and-switch, which is IMO unworthy of her.

Are you seriously trying to say that they were ok to rack up bills for a dead woman they were planning to resurrect, because they looked after her little sister while they were doing it?

Buffy owes Willow for something she did… while Buffy was dead? 
 

🤦‍♀️

Willow and Tara chose to stay in the house with Dawn and they chose to let Buffy sink into debt, despite planning on bringing her back to life. Anyone who seriously thinks that doing something so shitty to someone and trying to balance it with a “well I did this other favour for you, so you technically owe me”, is a garbage friend. It would be like punching someone in the face, but stopping them from tripping on their ass at the same time and telling that person you did them a favour. Absolute rubbish.

Exactly, Willow did not lack options, so the choice she made was to live somewhere and not pay the bills properly. Great choice.   

Who is reducing friendship to a balance sheet? I said they were freeloading, which they were. They lived in Buffy’s house and got her into debt for the privilege. Acknowledging that isn’t reducing their friendship down to a balance sheet. 
 

Whether Buffy brought up rent or not, if you live in someone’s house, you pay for the privilege. Who needs to be told to pay their way? Anya was over 1000 years old and obsessed with money. She wasn’t naive in this area. 

Edited June 15 by MythTaken

[Halting Hex]

Willow and Tara "let Buffy sink into debt" because the house requires paying property tax and school tax and insurance.  Were they supposed to pay the taxes on a house they don't own?  Buffy is the legal owner of the house, therefore the taxes are Buffy's responsibility.  The witches brought her back as fast as they could.

Yes, Buffy also mentions food and clothing.  Now I grant you that Tara is a fat pig [/sarcasm], but I'm pretty sure that W/T already have clothes.  I've seen them wear them.   OTOH, there is this Dawn-shaped creature that keeps growing (to the extent that they have to work to hide the size of her rack) and she's the one who probably needs the new wardrobe.

Speaking of that shiny ball of green energy, the whole reason the house was kept up is to give her a home.  Willow has parents and a scholarship and Tara paid her housing expenses at UC-Hellmouth for three years before this.  Was the gang supposed to throw Dawn out into the street?  Were they supposed to sell the house and legally adopt Dawn (who is "15", let's recall) so she can move in with them?

Yes, W/T ate food while residing in Buffy's house, but since grocery stores are not known for granting lines of credit, I'm pretty sure they actually paid for that.  (Indeed, per your way of thinking, Buffy should pay them back for all the peanut butter-and-bologna quesadillas Dawn ate.)  And yes, they used the toilet (we hope) and took showers (we hope) and used the electricity that was in the house, which again also benefited Dawn, who is Buffy's legal ward and heir.  (And thus Buffy's fiduciary obligation.) I can certainly see the argument for leaving Dawn in the cold and dark and having to poop in the back yard, but that still seems a bit harsh.

If you've ever owned a home, you know that the water bill ($40 or so per month) isn't a patch on taxes and insurance.  Willow and Tara probably paid the immediate expenses; it's the larger issues of taxes and insurance and maintenance that piled up, and those are the responsibility of the homeowner, whichever Summers you consider it to be.  Leave Tara and her fat ass out of it.  She didn't wreck those pipes on her own.

JMO.