Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Lady S.]

He had both Catelyn and Ned Stark essentially absolve him in their minds.  "For my own children, would I have not...." blah blah, bloo bloo, quack" ....now, as I've said, that's horse shit.  No parent would do that in those circumstances.  There might be some circumstances where a parent would think "Yes, you tried to kill my child, but I understand why and think I would have done the same...." but that involves shit like "The parents of the would-be-axe murderer/gun-wielding-maniac/deranged-rapist might actually think "Oh man, I get why you had to try and kill my son for that".  It completely didn't fit those circumstances because Jaime and Cersei got themselves into that trough of shit and no one in their right mind would think "To protect your almost lifelong mistake and deviation from all that is good or justifiable, I get why you tried to kill my son and think I would have done the same thing..."

We just did that chapter in the re-read thread and Catelyn wasn't thinking of Jaime's attempted murder of Bran, she was thinking of Cersei's alleged murders of Ned and Jon Arryn. And I think it was more finally understanding why Cersei would do that than anything else, because in the next Catelyn chapter she tells Brienne she'd like to choke the life out of Cersei to avenge Ned so she definitely didn't absolve Cersei. When Jaime came clean about pushing Bran in their interrogation scene she wanted to kill him until remembering the girls, so definitely no absolution there either.

Agreed that the axe murderer forcing someone to choose between children's lives is a false equivalency here as the chooser(s) in that case would be innocent victims of fate whereas Jaime and Cersei were the ones who brought the danger upon themselves and their kids. I choose to read GRRM's quote as just pointing out that Jaime trying to kill Bran wasn't irredeemably evil and it was a difficult decision, and I think it's interesting that he's asking When can someone be redeemed? and Is redemption even possible? not How can a man, such as a sister fucking attempted-childslayer, be redeemed? Just because redemption is being explored in Jaime's story doesn't mean he will actually achieve redemption for all he's done and be a true hero. There's also an interview where he says he's surprised by the number of women whose favorite characters are Sandor, and he started out calling them villains or bad guys then settled on "deeply troubled individuals with some very dark sides".

[WSmith84]

Yeah, the first three are almost universally considered better, with Storm being ranked top. I agree with that, even though Dance is my second favourite, because it has the Northern plot which I love. The bloat in Dance though, to me at least, feels more pointless than the bloat in Feast. Like, I can at least see what George was going for with Brienne, but in Dance it really feels like Tyrion and Dany got so many chapters because George likes writing them. If you read Dany's chapters one after the other, it's like reading the same chapter over and over (barring the last two). When someone tells me that they enjoy Dany's chapters in Meereen, it doesn't matter how well they explain it; I just don't get it. They may as well explain why they like a food that I hate, because I'm never going to truly understand it.

[Terra Nova]

Shimpy, I myself do not know; sure, I could say that for dramatic purposes is better to have a dialogue with an imagined character than a monologue where Dany rethinks her priorities, that knowing Martin is an atheist and that most likely there are no gods in ASoIaF, not in the way we intend them at least, then also the idea of some afterlife seems improbable, that I would prefer no spirits of past Christmas in the book, that Viserys here is saying nothing Dany didn't know already and so on...

But the truth is that the moment I read it I was dead certain Viserys wasn't 'real', and I didn't change my mind after that. We will probably never got a clear answer.

 

It's also funny that you mention Quaithe, since some theories in fandom claim in fact that she's another creation of Dany's increasingly cray-cray mind, and that the 'prophecies' are just some twisted form of dragon dreams - those are prophetic for sure, though there has never been a case of a Targ who could speak with the dead -. Of course the Quaithe Dany sees in the Red Waste is real, and she reused that figure in her mindtrips. I find them interesting, but I am sure that Quaithe is real and with a net of obsidian candles*** That she's on Dany's side and is acting out of pure good intentions, hell no.

 

On the other hand, it would be a funny case for Dany to have dead voices in her mind, it would draw an even stronger parallele between her and Saint Alya of the Knife. In my opinion Dany's mystical role could very well turn out to be the one of the Dark Messiah, as someone else said upthread. Some destructive figure in whose wake the true believers will live forever - and considering we've seen various shades of undying/undead people, thanks, but no thanks -. But at the moment she doesn't really seem aware or interested in a mystical destiny anyway: the only destiny she sees for her at the end of Dance is to reclaim her birthright (this can of course change in later books, there's enough seeding it wouldn't appear forced, either way)

 

As vibeology says, Clash is usually considered a tad inferior to Storm and Game. The views on Feast and Dance range wildly depending on the reader: Feast main criticism was the new 'boring' characters and lack of progression and a strong ending, Dance is accused of the latter too, with an initial strong backlash against Tyrion and Dany - many readers claim to have lost interest in them after Dance -. An enormous amount of hate is directed at Quent's chapters and his character altogether, despite having only three POV chapters in 64 ^^ But Feast is lauded for a strong thematical integrity and Dance for a perceived reduced paddling around and for a strong Northern arc.

 

 

***speaking of which, Steven Attewell is a blogger currently doing a re-reading of ASoIaF with historical and political commentaries (it's awesome), and his analysis of Dany's chapters in Qarth and the portents her dragons caused had this beautiful snippet:

 

 

It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years.

 

Glass candles, yes, but look at the very Ironborn-ish name of this guy: could this be Euron? It places him in a nice spot for later capturing the warlocks, and while the Night-Walker is frankly disturbing in his creepiness, Urrathon seems a jab at his dead brother Urrigon.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

The bloat in Dance though, to me at least, feels more pointless than the bloat in Feast.

 

Agreed on that, but I assume that it is because it involves one of my least favorite characters: Tyrion and one who I used to actually like and felt like Dance really just had her treading dull water.  

 

That's interesting stuff about Quaithe, Terra although, again we actually do know that there are magical forces that are godlike or at least long enduring in this work.  Whatever the Lord of Light is, it actually does things.  Bloodraven is not actually immortal and seems to be mostly Weirwood now, but he is supernatural.  As their ravens.  As are the Wargs.    When Jaime pillowed his head on Weirwood, he had a dream that seemed to guide him. 

 

Much is made of Miri's words and prophecies and if Qaithe is something brought about by Dany slowly losing her Marbles in the Targ Way, then her scattering marbles are at least accurate in what they have hinted at.  Pale Mares. Sun's son.  etc. etc.  

 

So Martin being an atheist hasn't kept him from including supernatural forces.  If gods aren't real in this world, than magical forces that are supernatural are and Jon has had seer dreams, Bran has dreams brought to him by other forces.  Hell, Cersei's entire animating force has to do with trying to avoid a prophecy that may or may not be bunk. 

 

But Beric Dondarrion animated Catelyn Stark after she was dead and was brought back at least seven times before that, right?  

 

There's no question that otherworldly forces exist in this tale, so that's why I was asking why you assumed Viserys and company were all hallucinations.   So far in this story -- even in Dany's story -- even if she's just delusional, those delusions are prescient thus far.  Doesn't mean her crappy, bleeding, burning, itching fungal infection of the feelings (see your doctor and ask about a purple pill, or something) dreams aren't hallucinations, but it would be at least a little new as a move in the story. 

 

I really ought to quit goofing the hell off and go and run my errands, but thus far, today the moon must be in procrastination ascendency because I've done jack-all other than walk my dogs and research screens (every bit as riveting as it sounds).  I'm stalling so much I might as well be a character in Feast (but not Dance, because I'd live for like....four full minutes in Mereen before trying to invent PETA and having someone nail me to something. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

From many polls that I read it went:

ASOS> AGOT > ACOK > ADWD > AFFC

[Terra Nova]

Oh, on that we agree, magic is real and an increasing presence in the narration. I only consider it not to be connected with some particular deity. It is more like an unseen stream that pervades Planetos that people can reach if they know how.

I also mantain that Targ retained some magic qualities back from the days in Old Valyria, something that clearly runs in the blood - I assume that to be the source of Jon's dreams, who is not a greenseer the way Bran is, who in turn is not a seer the way Jojen is (Jojen's dreams seem to be a completely different beast).

 

Jaime had clearly a dream which was at least partly prophetic - the bear -, but in his case too one can argue the ghosts of his past could have been just his subconscious trying to cope with past events.

Theon likewise had a 'magical' dream while sleeping in Ned's bed, the one were he saw the death of Robb and Grey Wind at the banquet of the dead: one could say that this is again his subconscious and his guilt, and yet he dreams of Lyanna with her gown spattered with blood and gore, a detail he just couldn't have known. Also, but this is more for the reader, Lyanna has a white/bridal dress, another hint that she truly wedded Rhaegar and thus Jon is not even a bastard (the other big piece of evidence is the dialogue at the Tower of the Joy where Ned asks why the Kingsguard is not with Viserys, who by then was the King, and they answer that they swore a vow - the main one,as we learn through Barry, is to defend the king, i.e. Jon if he's legitimate-).

 

 

So, yeah, there are enough hints that I wouldn't riot if it turn out it was truly Viserys. If that's the case, the guy has a penchant for dramatic departures for sure XD

 

ETA: one fan theory I find really intriguing is that Jon's dream about being in the crypts instead of the feast because he's a bastard, boo! The one when he sees Grey Wind in the shadows as a hint of the Red Wedding, is actually the same dream Theon is dreaming, only Jon is underground. So is there a dreamworld where people drift in their sleep, where they can tap in the magic and even meet? I do not know but I truly like the idea :)

Edited February 25, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

So, yeah, there are enough hints that I wouldn't riot if it turn out it was truly Viserys.

 

But there's room between "really Viserys" and "Dany's personal hallucination" in this story and that's what I thought it was.  Some other, magical, guiding entity.  God, gods or the Wizard Ted (BSG shoutout).  

[WSmith84]

I just can't believe the show didn't take the opportunity to get Harry Lloyd back. I mean, wasted opportunity much? Even if Viserys is magical in nature in the book, they can easily make it a simple hallucination brought on by stress, dehydration and hunger for Dany. Mind you, given the stunning lack of effort that seemed to be put into that particular scene, it's hardly surprising.

[Terra Nova]

 Some other, magical, guiding entity.  

 

D: actually now that I think about it I remember Dany's fever dream after she was brought in Mirri's tent: she was running from something terrible coming to get her and then she races past the ghost of the Targ kings:

 

They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward.

 

It's the only time something like this happens in the books; maybe it's only some remnant of the Ur-text posted some pages ago - there are traces of it in Game especially, with Tyrion in particular -, but maybe it's some sort of collective Targ memory or something like that...

Edited February 25, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Chris24601]

Terra Nova, I loved your reading of the last chapter. I still can't let myself believe that Martin would turn his magical princess into the enemy (I'm one of those fan who thinks he's not nearly as subversive as people think he is), but oh, how I wish he would At least it would finally make her interesting again. (On the other hand, the romantic in me would have her ending be her return to house with the red door, prefereably with Jorah in hand. But I try to quell that voice ;))

I think he would go there and its probably been his plan from the start. There's a reason she's linked to DRAGONS of all things (which outside of modern fantasy were nearly universally forces of evil and destruction). That probably should have been our first clue.

 

Martin's dragons definitely aren't the sapient dispensers of wisdom or noble beasts who instinctively protect the helpless that crop up somewhat regularly in modern fantasy. They're the man-eating barely-tamable beasts who roast children alive that man has labeled monsters since the dawn of civilization (its no accident that the author of Revelation chose to depict Satan as a dragon).

 

Narratively speaking though, there's also something really appealing about seeing not just where the heroes came from, but what forces shaped the villains as well. When Dany comes crashing into Westeros like an inferno we'll understand her frustrations at trying to rule and make peace and why she's more than happy to burn it all down.

 

In my opinion Dany's mystical role could very well turn out to be the one of the Dark Messiah, as someone else said upthread. Some destructive figure in whose wake the true believers will live forever - and considering we've seen various shades of undying/undead people, thanks, but no thanks

 

That would be me... and yeah, we've seen the undead and true believers of the "Fire God"... immune to heat, not even needing food to survive, bleeding black blood. The faith of the Red God professes that Azor Ahai will be their champion and banish the forces of the Great Other forever to create a world of endless summer where only the Red God's followers will survive... probably because its going to be a sun-blasted wasteland.

 

That's one of the bits that really plays into my theorizing on things too, because flip it from fire to ice and you've got the Others (or perhaps Blue Priests if you will) complete with their own undead followers and a world of endless cold and night that only they can survive in.

 

I think all the signs pointing to Dany as Azor Ahai Reborn are right on the money, but that one of Martin's twists is going to be that Azor Ahai is NOT the hero, but the villain (there's also a theory that Azor Ahai, The Prince That Was Promised and The Stallion Who Mounts the World are all different versions of the same legend that originate in Asshai... of a legendary conqueror who will burn cities and trample nations while the wives of his enemies weep blood and rend their flesh).

 

Azor Ahai is a culture hero to the people of Asshai, but that's a place where shadow-binders and warlocks are said to practice their foul arts openly. Its worth noting that Melisandre and Quaithe are both Shadowbinders from Asshai, Mirri Maz Duur learned her blood magic in Asshai and Dany's dragon eggs also came from Asshai by the Shadow.

 

By the time Dany gets back to Westeros she's likely to have the Dothraki (words "Pillage, Rape, Murder"), the Red Priests (words "Convert or Burn") and more than likely the Ironborn ("We do not sow") at her back. Short of recruiting Ramsey, I'm not sure what Dany could do to look more like something straight out of Mordor.

 

Like I said before, there's something fascinating to the idea of an author getting people emotionally invested in a character and wanting to see them succeed only to have that person's goals turn into something horrible and yet still understanding exactly where they're coming from. That's the type of writing that gets you remembered for a LONG time.

ETA:

It's the only time something like this happens in the books; maybe it's only some remnant of the Ur-text posted some pages ago - there are traces of it in Game especially, with Tyrion in particular -, but maybe it's some sort of collective Targ memory or something like that...

Actually, there's some stuff, particularly regarding the eye-colors in that book quote that link back to some stuff from the "A World of Ice and Fire" companion book... once again from the region near Asshai... that the quote might be playing into as well.

 

Be warned if you head that way Shimpy... for the night is dark and full of theories... :D

Edited February 25, 2016 by Chris24601

[vibeology]

Jaime had clearly a dream which was at least partly prophetic - the bear -, but in his case too one can argue the ghosts of his past could have been just his subconscious trying to cope with past events.

Theon likewise had a 'magical' dream while sleeping in Ned's bed, the one were he saw the death of Robb and Grey Wind at the banquet of the dead: one could say that this is again his subconscious and his guilt, and yet he dreams of Lyanna with her gown spattered with blood and gore, a detail he just couldn't have known. Also, but this is more for the reader, Lyanna has a white/bridal dress, another hint that she truly wedded Rhaegar and thus Jon is not even a bastard (the other big piece of evidence is the dialogue at the Tower of the Joy where Ned asks why the Kingsguard is not with Viserys, who by then was the King, and they answer that they swore a vow - the main one,as we learn through Barry, is to defend the king, i.e. Jon if he's legitimate-).

 

Jaime has his dream sleeping against a Weirwood and Theon is sleeping in Ned's bed, which is also made out of a weirwood frame. There is something magical going on with those trees, especially considering we know Bran can see through them. I don't know what, but hopefully once we get back to Bran's story we will find out.

[mac123x]

That's interesting stuff about Quaithe, Terra although, again we actually do know that there are magical forces that are godlike or at least long enduring in this work.  Whatever the Lord of Light is, it actually does things.  Bloodraven is not actually immortal and seems to be mostly Weirwood now, but he is supernatural.

 

One of  the more... inventive... theories I've read had the visions Dany received as being projected by Quaithe, and since Dany sees her as a mask of stars while in the Dothraki Sea, Quaithe is actually Shiera Seastar, half-sister/lover of Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven.  It's a bit far-fetched since she'd be very old but she was rumored to be a sorceress who bathed in human blood to keep her youth. 

[stillshimpy]

Be warned if you head that way Shimpy... for the night is dark and full of theories... :D

 

Yeah well, Spring is still in the offing, also known as "when I can put my house on the market and move to the same state as my husband again" so seeing as I'm quite literally staring at tree buds and saying encouraging things like "Come the FUCK ON would you?" which oddly isn't actually inspiring them to anything, I currently have the time. 

 

Besides, I think that it makes a certain cyclical sense, particularly in a story that is all about cycles, that if he is exploring redemption -- what bars someone from it, is there a point at which someone is irredeemable? -- then it also makes sense that he'd want to explore the road to perdition and how you set off down it with your good intentions packed in your slave-freeing backpack.  What could possibly go wrong and all of that?  

 

I do think Emilia Clarke has always played Dany with an eye towards that possibility.  It wasn't just things like staring at Viserys as if he was a lab rat in a burning experiment, there were things like getting turned on by Drogo essentially ripping a man to shreds in front of her.  

 

In the books, the dragons are mighty and powerful and indiscriminate in who they will kill.   Quentyn the bland, but largely good getting roasted alive by one underlines that.  Even if it was suspending disbelief a bit for how long it took him to die, it was hard to be all Team Dragon on that.  He was just a kid, trying to be honorable. 

 

Also, going back to Clarke, she's always made the choice to look at tennis-ball-Drogon in an enraptured, passionate way, vs. a maternalistic way.  Clarke plays Dany as if she's looking at her soulmate.  It always stuck me as an interesting, if odd choice.  It makes more sense when held in contrast to book Dany.  

 

Plus, on the one hand you've got the fantasy tradition of the misunderstood, infinitely wise, majestic creature and on the other, you've got the "sacrifice the village virgin to it" dragon tradition. Or the Malificent in the original Sleeping Beauty = evil queen who turns into one. 

 

Dany's forty days in the desert didn't lead her back to the place with pyramids, apparently her desert visions (loved the inclusion of the bush that brings on visions...hee) told her that it was time to roll forth and conquer.  

Edited February 25, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

Jaime has his dream sleeping against a Weirwood and Theon is sleeping in Ned's bed, which is also made out of a weirwood frame. There is something magical going on with those trees, especially considering we know Bran can see through them. I don't know what, but hopefully once we get back to Bran's story we will find out.

The most interesting thing about this is that Jon, Theon and Jaime's dream are actually one dream from different vantage points.

Theon's dream takes place at the feast in the Great Hall of Winterfell with the dead.

Jon's dream is in the Crypts of Winterfell. He mentions that he could hear the dead feasting in the hall and sometimes heard Robb and Ned while he walks deeper into the crypt as the Stark kings snarl" this isn't you're place", "you are no Stark" and "go away".

“I don’t even dream of Ghost anymore. All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes, I hear Robb’s voice, and my father’s, as if they’re at a feast. But there’s a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me.”

Jaime's dream involves him being transported into some caverns that he doesn't recognize and weren't anything like Casterly Rock's. Well there are caves underneath Winterfell.

Also in contrast to the Stark kings telling Jon that this isn't his place, you have this said to Jaime:

“What place is this?”

“Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days.

It ends with the KG reminding Jaime that he swore to keep the king safe....and the children as well.

I don't know if that's foreshadowing anything or not but Jon counts as the king and the a child of Rhaegar as well so you could say that Jaime's place is by Jon's side which is why he's at Winterfell in his dream.

[feverfew]

Fully agreed on that, feverfew, but in all fairness to Martin, he's not subtle about whether or not that is viewed as a forgivable action or his intent.  I didn't need to read that interview to know where he was headed with Jaime. 

 

He had both Catelyn and Ned Stark essentially absolve him in their minds.  "For my own children, would I have not...." blah blah, bloo bloo, quack" ....now, as I've said, that's horse shit.  No parent would do that in those circumstances.  There might be some circumstances where a parent would think "Yes, you tried to kill my child, but I understand why and think I would have done the same...." but that involves shit like "The parents of the would-be-axe murderer/gun-wielding-maniac/deranged-rapist might actually think "Oh man, I get why you had to try and kill my son for that".  It completely didn't fit those circumstances because Jaime and Cersei got themselves into that trough of shit and no one in their right mind would think "To protect your almost lifelong mistake and deviation from all that is good or justifiable, I get why you tried to kill my son and think I would have done the same thing..." 

 

But it did make Martin's intent crystal clear. 

and

We just did that chapter in the re-read thread and Catelyn wasn't thinking of Jaime's attempted murder of Bran, she was thinking of Cersei's alleged murders of Ned and Jon Arryn. And I think it was more finally understanding why Cersei would do that than anything else, because in the next Catelyn chapter she tells Brienne she'd like to choke the life out of Cersei to avenge Ned so she definitely didn't absolve Cersei. When Jaime came clean about pushing Bran in their interrogation scene she wanted to kill him until remembering the girls, so definitely no absolution there either.

Agreed that the axe murderer forcing someone to choose between children's lives is a false equivalency here as the chooser(s) in that case would be innocent victims of fate whereas Jaime and Cersei were the ones who brought the danger upon themselves and their kids. I choose to read GRRM's quote as just pointing out that Jaime trying to kill Bran wasn't irredeemably evil and it was a difficult decision, and I think it's interesting that he's asking When can someone be redeemed? and Is redemption even possible? not How can a man, such as a sister fucking attempted-childslayer, be redeemed? Just because redemption is being explored in Jaime's story doesn't mean he will actually achieve redemption for all he's done and be a true hero. There's also an interview where he says he's surprised by the number of women whose favorite characters are Sandor, and he started out calling them villains or bad guys then settled on "deeply troubled individuals with some very dark sides".

 

I've just returned from my book club meeting, and I feel very...conflicted. We read Mark Lawrence's Prince of Thorns (that woman from New York Times definitely didn't know what she was talking about) and for those of you who don't know it, its main character is a fourteen year old sociopath who enjoys killing. Think Ramsay (though not so much with the sexual sadism part, which I for one was grateful for). We were talking about redemption arcs and author intent and what follows when you as a reader comes into a story with preconcieved notions on both morals and characterization.

 

What Martin did with Jaime (and Stannis), was actually quite dangerous, because some readers (like me) will get so hung up upon intial characterization it'll be difficult to turn back from it. Incidents involving children trigger me, and what Jaime did for "love" is something I don't think you really can come back from. Putting his (my?) moral event horizon so early in the novel made me deaf to much of his later development. To be honest, I never gave Catelyn and Ned's musing on what they would do for love much thought. It actually completely went over my head that this was Martin's way of absolving Jaime (and I've read the first three books three times). If that's what he wanted me to realize, then it bothers me, that author intent. Because it suggests that morals is a compromise, a bargin, always, and I don't believe that.

 

I want to believe that you can come back from anything (season five of The Walking Dead was an interesting experiment in that), but I don't think redemption equals forgetfulness. And in a way, to make me buy Jaime as a true hero, Martin is asking me to forget it ever happened. Martin was "surprised" to learn there were SanSan shippers? When he played into all the stereotypes there ever were on Beauty and the Beast? What he's trying to do with Jaime (and Brienne) is much the same - and just like with Sandor I feel...cheated. Maybe I wanted a more subtle story.

 

ETA. I wanted to join the chorus of people who go ASoS, AGoT, ACoK, AFfC and...... (way down the line) ADwD ;)

Edited February 25, 2016 by feverfew

[glowbug]

Plus, on the one hand you've got the fantasy tradition of the misunderstood, infinitely wise, majestic creature and on the other, you've got the "sacrifice the village virgin to it" dragon tradition. Or the Malificent in the original Sleeping Beauty = evil queen who turns into one. 

 

I was just going to make this exact comment complete with reference to Disney's Sleeping Beauty. :)

 

As to the order of the books I agree that for the general fandom it's ASoS, AGoT, ACoK, then a very distant ADwD and AFfC. I can't tell you how many people told me after I finished Feast that Dance was so much better. Not as good as the first three but enjoyable. I ended up enjoying Dance less than Feast (with the exception of the North—Winterfell, the Wall and Stannis) so I was sorely disappointed. For me, the last 25% of Feast was actually good (I flew through it) but the good parts of Dance were scattered throughout the story, which meant no part of that book went fast. There would be a good chapter and then a Dany or Tyrion chapter so I would put it down and have hard time picking it up again. While I'd lost interest in Dany after the first book (save her prophecy chapters—House of the Undying, Quiathe, etc.) I actually really enjoyed Tyrion's chapters in the first three books so I was particularly disappointed there. I'm beginning to wonder if any character who goes to Essos loses everything interesting about them. It happened with Arya to a lesser extent as well. I find her storyline more interesting than Tyrion's or Dany's but she's no longer a favorite of mine. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by glowbug

[WindyNights]

I was just going to make this exact comment complete with reference to Disney's Sleeping Beauty. :)

As to the order of the books I agree that for the general fandom it's ASoS, AGoT, ACoK, then a very distant ADwD and AFfC. I can't tell you how many people told me after I finished Feast that Dance was so much better. Not as good as the first three but enjoyable. I ended up enjoying Dance less than Feast (with the exception of the North—Winterfell, the Wall and Stannis) so I was sorely disappointed. For me, the last 25% of Feast was actually good (I flew through it) but the good parts of Dance were scattered throughout the story, which meant no part of that book went fast. There would be a good chapter and then a Dany or Tyrion chapter so I would put it down and have hard time picking it up again. While I'd lost interest in Dany after the first book (save her prophecy chapters—House of the Undying, Quiathe, etc.) I actually really enjoyed Tyrion's chapters in the first three books so I was particularly disappointed there. I'm beginning to wonder if any character who goes to Essos loses everything interesting about them. It happened with Arya to a lesser extent as well. I find her storyline more interesting than Tyrion's or Dany's but she's no longer a favorite of mine.

I have one character name to say to you....Victarion.

His chapters in Essos were fun. And I was amused by the monkey infestation on his ships.

Anyways I don't agree that it's Essos that makes people less interesting but Slaver's Bay. I was enjoying Tyrion chapters just fine until he hit Slaver's Bay.

TBH, I thought Tyrion's chapter with Aegon were really good.I grew fond of Jon Con's family and it made me care about Aegon's side of the story.

[glowbug]

I have one character name to say to you....Victarion.

His chapters in Essos were fun. And I was amused by the monkey infestation on his ships.

Anyways I don't agree that it's Essos that makes people less interesting but Slaver's Bay. I was enjoying Tyrion chapters just fine until he hit Slaver's Bay.

TBH, I thought Tyrion's chapter with Aegon were really good.I grew fond of Jon Con's family and it made me care about Aegon's side of the story.

 

 

I'm not a fan of Victarion's chapters. I see their appeal for others but they aren't my cup of tea. I was annoyed by Tyrion the entire book not just in Slaver's Bay. Even before Slaver's Bay we had "where to whores go" and all of his self pitying. The Aegon chapters were the better part of his story in Dance but not as interesting as most of his Westeros chapters and I still remember there being a fair amount of self pity in them (unless the chapters are just blurring together which is entirely possible). I did find Jon Con's chapters interesting but he was en rout to Westeros, thinking about Westeros in the past, or already there in his POVs so I don't think he counts. 

[WindyNights]

I'm not a fan of Victarion's chapters. I see their appeal for others but they aren't my cup of tea. I was annoyed by Tyrion the entire book not just in Slaver's Bay. Even before Slaver's Bay we had "where to whores go" and all of his self pitying. The Aegon chapters were the better part of his story in Dance but not as interesting as most of his Westeros chapters and I still remember there being a fair amount of self pity in them (unless the chapters are just blurring together which is entirely possible). I did find Jon Con's chapters interesting but he was en rout to Westeros, thinking about Westeros in the past, or already there in his POVs so I don't think he counts.

I enjoyed those early Tyrion chapters more for the cast he was involved with than for Tyrion, I suppose. I hope we see more Lemore in TWOW.

And yeah Tyrion was always self-pitying. It's just in Dance where it was taken up to 11.

[Ashara Payne]

I thought it was generally accepted that Dany was gonna go full Walter White.

[Audreythe2nd]

What Martin did with Jaime (and Stannis), was actually quite dangerous, because some readers (like me) will get so hung up upon intial characterization it'll be difficult to turn back from it. Incidents involving children trigger me, and what Jaime did for "love" is something I don't think you really can come back from. Putting his (my?) moral event horizon so early in the novel made me deaf to much of his later development. To be honest, I never gave Catelyn and Ned's musing on what they would do for love much thought. It actually completely went over my head that this was Martin's way of absolving Jaime (and I've read the first three books three times). If that's what he wanted me to realize, then it bothers me, that author intent. Because it suggests that morals is a compromise, a bargin, always, and I don't believe that.

 

I want to believe that you can come back from anything (season five of The Walking Dead was an interesting experiment in that), but I don't think redemption equals forgetfulness. 

Loved your comment and especially your wording that I bolded, because I think it speaks to what I was talking about on the previous page, that Martin is attempting something (and knows he's attempting something) that not all readers will respond to the way he intends. The structure of the story is such that many readers are going to be far more likely to excuse terrible actions from characters that come later on in the story, even if those actions are worse than an action like Jaime's. We could argue that a terrible action committed by Arya (for instance) is a result of conditioning, that if terrible things had not happened to her, then she in turn would not have turned into a morally bereft person herself (and this is just an example, I'm not saying she's done anything in this realm yet... though she might). But I think Martin is trying to get us to ask ourselves whether or not in the scope of the story it matters. One terrible actions begets another terrible action, and then another in the name of revenge and another in the name of justice and another and so on and so on. And where does it end? If there's one thing I am dead sure about, from both reading the books and watching the story unfold on TV, it's that at the heart of this thing there lies a really simple message - that if someone doesn't stop the cycle of revenge that perpetuates itself through the narrative, there won't be any hope for peace, ever. Should redemption equal forgetfulness? Well...if forgetting results in the greater good for everyone, then... yeah. I think, in some ways, Martin might be getting us to (uncomfortably) realize that it might. 

[mac123x]

You'll find Theon, Alayne, Mercy and Arianne there. Choose whichever most interests you. They're all excellent imo but I do have a clear favorite. .

 

I'd read three of those before, but finally read the Mercy chapter.  I had a 'wut' moment:  Book 6 preview chapter spoiler: 

I was surprised that Ser Harys Swyft still went on his trip to Braavos following the events of the ADWD epilogue, but then figured "yeah, they still need the money so why not".  I guessed that MaceTyrell and Randyll Tarley would take complete control of the government after Kevan died.  However, the non-Raff guard said, "If he goes back without the gold the queen will have his head."  Are we to assume Cercei is back in charge again?  Yikes.  I suppose "queen" could be Marge, but she doesn't seem like the type to be into beheadings.

[Terra Nova]

Theon is sleeping in Ned's bed, which is also made out of a weirwood frame.

 

I said the same too several pages ago, but yesterday I checked the books and no match came up: it's never spelled out in the text whether it is really weirwood, so for now I would consider this just some rumor popular in the fandom. It is true though that some Stark/Snow in the past put a lot of faith in the power of weirwood (AWoIaF)

Brandon Snow, the brother of King Thorren, thought he could kill the dragons with three arrows from the heart tree of Winterfell

 

 

Martin was "surprised" to learn there were SanSan shippers? When he played into all the stereotypes there ever were on Beauty and the Beast?

 

This is something else that cyclically floats around in the fandom, but Martin was never surprised about SanSan or the love Sandor gets as a character; he even admitted playfully that he 'toyed' with them and that there is 'something' (source):

 

 

Also, he asked the artist who drew the Sandor/Sansa entry in the calendar to frame the picture just like 'Beauty and the Beast''s poster, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And he was one of the screewriters of the 'Beauty and the Beast' TV series in the '80s, the one with Ron Perlman, so...

Edited February 26, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Lady S.]

Yeah, that was the interview I was talking about, where his first words are "I am sometimes surprised by ....".

[Terra Nova]

I would guess he was referring more to the rabid fangirls who mantain Jaime is only misunderstood and did nothing wrong and such; I have seen the same happening with show!Ramsay D: girls saying he's dreamy and really in pain for his bastard status so he should be understood if he acts in certain ways.

I like Sandor as a character and I would like for him and Sansa to meet again, at least once, but I would never say he's not a damaged person with huge problems in interacting with others without resorting to verbal abuse and threats ^^'

[Chris24601]

I could live without Sansa ever meeting Sandor again in the main narrative. Part of it is that the show lingered longer on Sandor with Arya, but I'd much rather see Sandor reunite with Arya... particularly if they end up on a quest to go kill Cersei and her champion Robert Strong (thus giving us Cleganbowl... another fan-favorite theory). Throw in the dash of prophecy about the valonqar (which, if Valarian, might actually be gender neutral just like The Prince That Was Promised) and you've got Cersei strangled to death by the little sister of the "younger more beautiful (queen)" (who was inadvertently involved in the plot that took all Cersei held dear from her, Joffrey, that starts her downfall into madness) while Sandor finally puts his ghosts to rest by putting down the ghost of Gregor.

 

Also, Interesting point about Jaime's dreams about his proper place being guarding the king (i.e. Jon), especially since Brienne was also in the dream (and later swore an oath to Jaime to protect Sansa, who could end up queen). Given that it was associated with weirwoods it could be prophetic... or maybe its just a coincidence.

[stillshimpy]

For me, the last 25% of Feast was actually good (I flew through it) but the good parts of Dance were scattered throughout the story, which meant no part of that book went fast. There would be a good chapter and then a Dany or Tyrion chapter so I would put it down and have hard time picking it up again.

 

That reflects my experience too.  Feast draggggggeeeeed right up until the point it absolutely stopped dragging and it was a case of "Oh wow! No!! Don't stop there!!!!" by the end.  Dance was more up and down for me.  I had previously really enjoyed some of Tyrion's chapters.  When he was The Hand, I loved a lot of that stuff -- save the Shae material -- but I enjoyed him as an active participant.  I loved finding out there was a lot more to Blackfire than I knew also.  It was a far richer, more complex tale.  

 

Tyrion in Dance just falls into a pit of self-pity, goes from borderline misogynistic to cringe-worthy, repellant levels on more than one occasions and he's puking levels of drunk through a lot of it.  He's kind of like a Frat boy with an extensive vocabulary, who just got dumped by some girl and just snarls his way through life, in between getting sauced, or while getting sauced.  Or after.  Sauced will be a key feature.   

 

That's part of the reason I enjoyed the FaegonAegon chapters the most, because JonCon made him sober the fuck up. 

 

I'm sorry Terra, it's obvious you're a devoted SanSan person, but I don't care if they ever cross paths again.  I agree it would be more interesting to see him meet up with Arya and that's in an entirely non-romantic sense.   

 

I have to admit, my interest in Dany perks up decidedly when she's not out White Savioring the land across the Narrow Sea.  Even if she goes full on batshit, at least I might have fewer descriptions of what she wants to wear and what boy she dreams of kissing....while fidgeting.   This book really felt like Dany's adolescence.  Maybe that's entirely fitting, because ....she is an adolescent.  

[WSmith84]

Cleganebowl bothers me for one reason, but it could be avoided. That reason is that it seems as if Sandor has found peace on the Quiet Isle; him leaving to kill his brother as he has always desired would seem like a step back for the character. But, if his reasons for doing the deed are pure, then I'd be OK with it. For example, if he did it to save Sansa (since he believed that he failed her by leaving her in KL) or to put his undead brother out of whatever hellish existence he may have, I'd be OK with that.

 

One theory I saw and quite liked was that Sansa will be captured and returned to King's Landing to face trial for the murder of Joffrey, possibly by Ser Shadrich (the Mad Mouse). Sansa, however, will use her wits to engineer a Trial of Seven to prove her innocence, with Sandor possibly being one of her champions. The Trial will end when Ser Robert Strong is dehelmed, revealing whatever is underneath and the Faith will declare him an abomination, fully turning them and the Sparrows against the Lannisters.

[WindyNights]

I don't think Cleganebowl is happening. Sandor seems be walking around with a permanent limp and is at peace now.

There really isn't any catharsis in beating Robert Strong anymore either. He's just a corpse. Can you even say that's Gregor Clegane?

Also I don't think Sansa is going back to KL. Her destiny and fate seems more intertwined with Winterfell.

And I can't see the Lannister regime lasting long enough to conduct a trial for her. The Lannisters are going down this book finally, mark my words.

[WSmith84]

By the way shimpy, have you decided whether or not you'll watch season 6 of the show? I keep going back and forth, because I don't have the energy to dodge spoilers but last year I had to make a conscious effort to watch each episode. I will at least watch the rumoured Tower of Joy flashback scene; I really want to see who they cast as young Ned Stark. I see they have, at least according to Wikipedia, cast (season 6 spoiler)

Euron Greyjoy, so Balon's finally kicking the bucket. I guess that puts an end to Euron=Daario, at least on the show anyway.

 

Also, I don't think the original actor for Daario was fired, but that he left the show to star in a big Hollywood film. Given that he also played the villain in Deadpool, that may not have been a bad career choice.

[WSmith84]

I don't think Cleganebowl is happening. Sandor seems be walking around with a permanent limp and is at peace now.

There really isn't any catharsis in beating Robert Strong anymore either. He's just a corpse. Can you even say that's Gregor Clegane?

Also I don't think Sansa is going back to KL. Her destiny and fate seems more intertwined with Winterfell.

And I can't see the Lannister regime lasting long enough to conduct a trial for her. The Lannisters are going down this book finally, mark my words.

 

Can't really disagree with this, tbh. I just liked the theory because it had a Trial of Seven, and I'd love to see one in the main series.

 

Personally, I'd like to see a regime change fairly soon; I'm tired of the Lannister/Baratheon/Tyrell one, and I'd be interested to see Aegon's regime, for however long it lasts. A common theory is that Aegon (and Jon Con) will start to unite the realm and heal its wounds, with Aegon being beloved by the smallfolk and the Faith. This would fit with Dany's vision of a mummer's dragon being cheered by a crowd. Then Daenerys will kill him (for whatever reason), earning her the emnity of the smallfolk and the Faith. This would be an interesting reversal for Dany, since in Slaver's Bay she is loved by the commoners, or at least those she freed from slavery.

[Terra Nova]

Don't worry Shimpy, and no need to say you're sorry :) I'm not on a crusade to convert the world to SanSan... I want the non-believers to stay that way and eat their hats when they will reunite in slo-mo, with romantic music in the air and flowers blooming in the background like in some shojo XD

Nah, I'm joking. I would like for it to happen, but I don't find it very likely.

 

Let's totally talk how Daenerys is not immune to fire *evil grin* This is a common misconception sadly fueled by the show, which anyway has always been present to some extent in the fandom. But yep, as you saw in her last chapter Dany got severe burns on her hands, probably when she grabbed the spear in Drogon's back or when she dodged the dragonflame few istants earlier.

 

She thinks she's immune to fire (while at the same time noting how her hands are still leaking white fluids but are not that bad, wth!), but her later recollection of what happened in the Pit is clearly sketchy: she was never touched by the flames, since her clothes were still there during her stay on 'Dragonstone', opposed to when she stepped in the pyre. Her hair was burning according to Barry's memories, but even if that's the case, hair burns pretty easily and at very low temperatures, so it could have easily caught fire with the proper flames several meters away.

 

Beside this, and more importantly I think, in the Pit Dany reacts with adequate terror to the dragonflame, since she darts under it and when Drogon has her pinned down thinks:

I am looking into hell, but I dare not look away. She had never been so certain of anything. If I run from him, he will burn me and devour me

 

The pyre is something completely different, since it involved blood magic; and even back then, Dany for sure wasn't immune to fire, because when she first attempts to step into the pyre so to burn to death with Drogo's corpse:

 

A rising heat puffed at her face, soft and sudden as a lover’s breath, but in seconds it had grown too hot to bear. Dany stepped backwards. The wood crackled, louder and louder. Mirri Maz Duur began to sing in a shrill, ululating voice. […] her song grew louder, shriller… the she gasped, again and again and her song became a shuddering wail, thin and high and full of agony. […]The heat beat at the air with great red wings, driving the Dothraki back, driving off even Mormont, but Dany stood her ground. She was the blood of the dragon, and the fire was in her.

 

It is only after Mirri started to sing that she's able to walk in the fire, sweating copiously and with clothes falling away in flames, but without being harmed by the fire.

So, either Mirri tried to cast some spell and save her own life, only to fail spectacularly and protecting Dany instead (I would have problems staying focused while burning alive ^^'), or the blood magic ritual somehow grants immunity to those who perform it (just like the dragonbinding horn of Euron can be blown to death by some random extra, with Vic/Euron still benefitting from the ritual and binding a dragon to them). There are also theories that Mirri did everything on purpose so to create Azor Ahai reborn, maybe in cahoots with her former master Marwin the Mage; I don't subscribe to this point of view, but I quote them for the sake of knowledge.

 

I also find interesting that in her victorious moment in the pyre she loses her hair, a sign of defeat and shame for the Dothraki.

 

And finally, word of God himself:

Source: http://astralgia.com/webportfolio/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

 

Granny:  Do Targaryens become immune to fire once they "bond" to their dragons?

George_RR_Martin:  Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.

Revanshe:  So she won't be able to do it again?

George_RR_Martin:  Probably not.

 

"Remember, only you can prevent people from believing that a Targ will survive a forest fire."   [Apple Martini]

Edited February 26, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

I did notice that she was burned, but it could tell if the severity was lessened, or what, because her hair burned off, but apparently her scalp wasn't burned?  

 

Anyway, I did read the part about having burns on her hands with some confusion.  

 

Although, candidly I don't really trust that "probably not" ....say 'Yes' 'No' 'I don't think so' but "probably not"? Hmmm.  Okay.  That's too easy to get out of, "I said probably, not definitely."  or whatever. 

 

We'll see, I guess.  I too am undecided, WindyNights :-) Still mulling that one.  I really didn't enjoy last season. 

[WSmith84]

The fact that Dany couldn't be burned on the show must have been a real counterpoint to R+L=J amongst the Unsullied, I presume? I mean, even bookreaders occasionally trot out the argument that Jon can't be a Targ because he gets burned when killing the wight.

[Ashara Payne]

I thought that Dany (and possibly some/all Targs) had an increased resistance to fire, rather than immunity or complete resistance. I can't actually remember if the incidents in Season 1 (ep1 when she steps into the too-hot bath and later when she picks up the egg from the brazier) were even in the book. I've read that interview before, though, and it surprises me how many fans think that all Targs are totally resistant to fire at all times. Did she actually lose all her hair in the funeral pyre? Or was that just in the art-work? (I'd look myself but I can't find my copy

[WindyNights]

I thought that Dany (and possibly some/all Targs) had an increased resistance to fire, rather than immunity or complete resistance. I can't actually remember if the incidents in Season 1 (ep1 when she steps into the too-hot bath and later when she picks up the egg from the brazier) were even in the book. I've read that interview before, though, and it surprises me how many fans think that all Targs are totally resistant to fire at all times. Did she actually lose all her hair in the funeral pyre? Or was that just in the art-work? (I'd look myself but I can't find my copy

[OhOkayWhat]

Hello Shimpy, hello everybody! newbie here! like other people before me, I just found this thread and I am sad I didn't it before....oh well, at least I'll be able to comment a few things from the last pages.

 

An interesting thing I noticed, it's the fact than at least in the show, if it does NOT happen in the Trial of Seven, Cleganebowl will make more sense if it is related to Arya, because, at least in the show, it seems she is the most important person in Sandor life, and Gregor is in her list too.

 

[ImpinAintEasy]

I thought that Dany (and possibly some/all Targs) had an increased resistance to fire, rather than immunity or complete resistance. I can't actually remember if the incidents in Season 1 (ep1 when she steps into the too-hot bath and later when she picks up the egg from the brazier) were even in the book. I've read that interview before, though, and it surprises me how many fans think that all Targs are totally resistant to fire at all times. Did she actually lose all her hair in the funeral pyre? Or was that just in the art-work? (I'd look myself but I can't find my copy )

They're getting some really anti-GRRM comments over on watchersonthewall. The site discourages show-bashing but it's gone too far the other way IMHO. Fine, if you don't like this sort of thing, just stay away, but these people are calling the show canon and GRRM writing fan-fiction! Wut?

It's sad that 5 or 6 posters have hijacked the comments section of that site. It's like a middle school defensive response to the many posters who posted negative comments about the show on a site that is mostly dedicated to covering the show. To be fair, a couple of them have been anti-GRRM since AFFC-ADWD. And I'd still say WOTW is more welcoming to dissenting opinions of the show than Westeros.org is to fans of the show. It's becoming tougher to be a fan of both the books and show. I respect fair criticism. I defend both the books and show when I feel it necessary. I left a comment in that WOTW post saying how ridiculous some of the things a few commenters were posting about George were. The claim that he was just trying to stay relevant and that the show was now canon was just plain ignorant, and most of the quality posters were quick to point that out, I thought.

[OhOkayWhat]

ImpinAintEasy said a very interesting thing. I see it like an "echo chamber mentality". Fans are reading only one side of the discussion (the book side or the show side) and because of that, I need to ask myself many times this question: How I can be sure I'm doing a proper analysis of the novels or the show if maybe I'm inside of the echo chamber too?

Edited February 27, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Haleth]

I just read the Arianne chapter of TWOW.  

Oh, man, I want to see her try to seduce Jon Con.

[WSmith84]

I always found westeros.org to be fairly show-friendly, at least until season 5 (a lot of pro-show people and people who didn't like Feast and Dance hated season 5). I mean, certain things were always unpopular: Renly's and Loras' portrayals were almost universally hated, Jaime's for the most part, Stannis' portrayal was heavily criticised, and certain arcs of certain seasons (Dany in Qarth, for example) were criticised as well. But I never felt like the forum was particularly anti-show, not until season 5.

 

I still can't believe, of all the seasons, season 5 was the one that won an Emmy.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I always found westeros.org to be fairly show-friendly, at least until season 5 (a lot of pro-show people and people who didn't like Feast and Dance hated season 5). I mean, certain things were always unpopular: Renly's and Loras' portrayals were almost universally hated, Jaime's for the most part, Stannis' portrayal was heavily criticised, and certain arcs of certain seasons (Dany in Qarth, for example) were criticised as well. But I never felt like the forum was particularly anti-show, not until season 5.

 

I still can't believe, of all the seasons, season 5 was the one that won an Emmy.

 

When one of the people who runs the site behaves the way she does, many of the visitors are sure to act similarly. It is quite remarkable how much access to the show that Linda still receives(invites to premiers/screeners). But I don't want to clog up this thread talking about her, so I think I'll stop before I get too into it.

I just read the Arianne chapter of TWOW.  

Oh, man, I want to see her try to seduce Jon Con.

 

Apparently George read Arianne I and Arianne II at a Con today. Will be interesting to see if any revisions were made. 

[mac123x]

ImpinAintEasy said a very interesting thing. I see it like an "echo chamber mentality". Fans are reading only one side of the discussion (the book side or the show side) and because of that, I need to ask myself many times this question: How I can be sure I'm doing a proper analysis of the novels or the show if maybe I'm inside of the echo chamber too?

 

One of the things I've really enjoyed about this thread is how non-echoey it's been.  People have different opinions and preferences and they're all respected even if others disagree.

[OhOkayWhat]

Mac is right. I guess there must be other forums like this out there, but they are hard to find, so, I'm glad I found you guys!

[Ashara Payne]

Linda's opinions regarding the show and showrunners have become toxic. Not only does she refer to them as 'Dumb and Dumber' but she is incredibly rude to people who disagree with her. Elio is markedly more measured.

Someone once described it as if they had this little fandom that was like following an obscure band, that they felt was theirs, and that now it's achieved world-wide recognition they don't like it.

[Haleth]

Off topic but I wanted to mention this to you all.  My son (who loves the show but has not yet read the books despite my nagging) was invited for the first time to play the GoT board game with some friends.  Apparently this is all they talk about.  He was hesitant because they get very intense and he's kind of laid back himself.  But he went over yesterday afternoon and didn't leave until 2am.  I guess it was fun.  Did I mention these are law students?  Imagine a bunch of 2L law students playing GoT.  Intense would be an understatement.  LOL

[Terra Nova]

Maybe we should ask your son and his friends an opinion on whose claim for the Iron Throne is the best then :)

 

On another note, in response to Ashara Payne's question, yes, the too hot bath and the eggs in the brazier were made up for the show; I understand why they decided to show an unsuccessful attempt at hatching the eggs, especially since they opted for the no-dreams no-visions route, but it went clearly against the book regarding fire immunity. In AGoT actually Dany at some point touches the eggs and finds them very hot, but when she asks Jorah for confirmation he tells her they're cold as normal stones.

 

It's funny though to notice that in her last scene in Season 5 Dany's hands were bandaged with strips torn from her clothes, just as in the book, but no explanation was given - actually, without carefully searching for them the casual viewer wouldn't even notice -.

 

And yep, Jon being burned by the lamp was totally brought up as some sort of major evidence against R+L=J; which is truly strange to me, since no one questions Viserys' ancestry despite his gruesome death, and in the books it's stated multiple times that Aegon Dragonsbane (I don't remember his number, lol... the third?) saw his mother eaten alive by a dragon (the implication being she was also roasted). And technically speaking she had much more Targ blood than Dany, so if anything she should have been more impervious to fire, if all of them are immune all the time.

 

ETA: a very nice thing I noticed only few months ago in the soundtrack, which I think is a highlight of the show: the 'dragon' theme, which can be heard in Season 4 'Breaker of Chains' (when Dany chains her dragons) and in an up-beat rendition when Drogon visits her atop the pyramid and when they fly away from the Pit, was actually already present in Season 1 in a scene involving the petrified eggs :) a very nice foreshadowing, since it's completely absent both in Season 2 and 3.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WSmith84]

Here are some fan-theories that people have come up with, shimpy, since you've finished the books.

 

Lemongate: OK, so this refers to Dany's memory of her house with a red door and a lemon tree outside her window in Braavos when she was a very young child, living with Ser Darry. It's pointed out that the climate in Braavos is not really conducive to growing citrus trees, and it's mentioned in the books that trees don't grow in Braavos, 'save in the palaces and courtyards of the mighty.' Various reasons are given for this, including some really crackpot theories, such as: Dany simply conflates two different parts (or more) of her childhood together, creating a single memory out of many. This is entirely possible, given her young age. Another is that Dany actually lived elsewhere, perhaps Dorne. This leads to speculation as to whether Dany is the 'real' Daenerys, or whether she is in fact someone else's daughter (Rhaegar's and Ashara's, Rhaegar's and Lyanna's, Ned and Ashara's etc.). Or it could be that Dany and Viserys were brought up in a house owned by the Sealord of Braavos (who, for the record, has a 'terrible walking liard with scythes for claws' in his menagerie) who could have owned a lemon tree. Then, whatever sickness killed Ser Darry killed the Sealord too, and the new Sealord didn't care to have Targaryen's living in his home. Or maybe the author didn't think of Braavos' climate before writing about the lemon tree. I personally lean towards the Sealord explanation, or the conflated memories one. The others just seem too crackpotty to me, and I can't really see what they add to the story.

 

Euron=Daario: Yep, this exists. It's evidence is a few similarities in appearance between the two, the Stormcrow symbolism and a few other bits and pieces. They're both handsome, Daario has salt-stained boots, both have hairless bodies (I think) etc. Daario disappears for lengthy periods of time (on missions for Dany) when he could be on the Iron Islands winning the Kingsmoot and doing other stuff. There are some others I'm probably forgetting, but you get the gist. A big factor against this, imo, is that I can't see why Euron would keep his identity a secret. Dany's already half in love with him, and when Balon dies and Euron wins the Kingsmoot that would be the perfect time to reveal himself. He can tell Dany that the reason he kept his identity secret was because he was exiled by his elder brother (and make up or lie about the reason) and that Daario was his new name. He could then offer to marry her, bringing the Ironborn to her side and transport to Westeros. All in all, I dislike this theory and think it would be a pretty shite twist, but we'll see.

 

Septa Lemore=Ashara Dayne: You might have already touched on this, I forget. Personally, I think that Tyrion would have noted her eyes being purple (as Ashara's were) considering the whole 'is Aegon real' thing. A woman who Tyrion says has had a child with purple eyes on the same boat as the supposed dead prince Aegon? I'd be suspicious, and I'd definitely draw conclusions other than 'Aegon is the real-deal.'

[Alayne Stone]

My personal favorite is the significance of the name Winterfell. The idea being that a long time ago a pact was made between The Starks of Winterfell and agents of the old gods of the North (including the White Walkers) to preserve peace and balance. So long as there is always a Stark in Winterfell (presumably as the Lord) ... winter would always be kept at bay. In the books given that there is officially no Stark in Winterfell and the marriage of Ramsay to a fraudulent Arya Stark, thus passing control of Winterfell over to the Boltons, this contract has been broken. And perhaps not so coincidentally the storms of the North have only been getting progressively worse and worse since this event happened. And now the Long Night is coming and nothing can stop it until a Stark has been returned to the seat of Winterfell.

 

It would certainly coincide with GRRM's original plan to have the final battle happen at Winterfell.

 

I also find the crackpot theory that the White Walkers are more of a purge than anything else, come to cleanse the world of a people that do not honor guest right, lay with their siblings, kill their kin, kill one another, etc. The Heresy threads over at Westeros.org have some amazing crackpot theories that people put a lot of time into. I don't subscribe to most of them but I certainly enjoy reading about them.

[WSmith84]

I had to stop going to the show forums of westeros.org because one thing that sends me into an absolute rage is when I write out a post with criticisms of the show, which may or may not contain comparisons with the source material, and someone would reply with something like 'you just don't like the show because it's different!' or 'how can you say Tyrion's scenes were boring when you compare them to his chapters in Dance!?' etc. As though one can't find something of poor quality in both versions, though in most cases for different reasons. It gets really tiring having to rewrite the same post in a different format, and it's infuriating.

 

And let's face it; sometimes the show ignores fantastic source material, replacing it with something inferior or just leaving it out altogether. Can anyone honestly tell me that the Northern plot was as good as the book material, and that it couldn't have been done any better? Can anyone say leaving out Manderly was a good decision?