Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[WindyNights]

The Tattered Prince wanting Pentos baffled me. Is he intending to sack the city for simple revenge, or does he want to actually rule it? A sell-sword company of 500 people doesn't seem like an adequate nor qualified group to take control of a city with a population >100k. "You want Pentos? Umm, yeah, sure, we'll help you do that after I learn to ride a dragon [snicker] .

He wants to rule it. Also he has 2,000 men and not 500 men. And well Quentyn is a Prince of Dorne so he should have many 25 k men at his disposal.

[Haleth]

Arya's first kill as a FM amused me since my husband and I both work in the insurance industry. Darn those insurance agents! Even on Planetos they are vile! Lol

[WindyNights]

No man is as accursed as the insurance agent.

It is known.

Edited February 8, 2016 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

I don't know, there was such a lot of detail about his long-fingered hands and pointy and beard....I just assumed he was someone of import fourteen thousand or so words ago.  Good to know that he isn't anyone in particular.  

 

He wants to rule it. Also he has 2,000 men and not 500 men. And well Quentyn is a Prince of Dorne so he should have many 25 k men at his disposal.

 

Yeah, well has he heard what happens to the Prince of Pentos, because typically?  Doesn't go well for that guy.  "Oh sure, in fact, I bet they'd be willing to elect you....no bloodshed necessary! At least not right away.  Unless it rains, or anything else goes even vaguely wrong."  

[WindyNights]

Yeah, well has he heard what happens to the Prince of Pentos, because typically? Doesn't go well for that guy. "Oh sure, in fact, I bet they'd be willing to elect you....no bloodshed necessary! At least not right away. Unless it rains, or anything else goes even vaguely wrong."

Yeah he knows. You already passed the chapter but it says:

When the Tattered Prince was three-and-twenty, as Dick Straw told the story, the magisters of Pentos had chosen him to be their new prince, hours after beheading their old prince. Instead he’d buckled on a sword, mounted his favorite horse, and fled to the Disputed Lands, never to return. He had ridden with the Second Sons, the Iron Shields, and the Maiden’s Men, then joined with five brothers-in-arms to form the Windblown. Of those six founders, only he survived. -The Windblown

So I assume he wants Pentos on his own terms where he has absolute power and doesn't serve in a ceremonial role as the Princes of Pentos usually do and won't get sacrificed if something goes wrong.

[Terra Nova]

I think the insisted description of her target is also to show how Arya tries to fabricate some excuse to kill him, the most hilarious being his villain's goatee, lol. Arya has no qualms to kill someone she perceives slighted her, but this guy was a perfect stranger to her (and us), and this is the point of it. And that this guys are not the paladins of justice and kill whomever they're paid for.

[stillshimpy]

. And that this guys are not the paladins of justice and kill whomever they're paid for.

 

Now this is one area where I haven't felt like I really understand what the Faceless Men do.  Sure, reference is given to the Many Faced God , blah-blah, blah-blah but even within that chapter when Arya is given the face of the Ugly Girl -- and that was one area that I understood why the show was unable to completely convey just how horrifying all those faces being stored was, or that Arya realizes that all of the bodies she's washed and prepared for burial are actually just taken to the basement and Ramsay'd into a truly gruesome collection of alter-identities after death.  The Whole "So?  So they skin their faces off of their dead bodies and keep them like most people store wines?  I don't have a particular problem with that....? Right? Right.  Sure.  Right.  Yeah, nothing deeply disturbing in that whole scenario.  Sure, just stick one of those things on me and....oh hey, it's fine that I feel the terror of the pain of this girl's existence....so does that mean it's with her forever too, wherever she is?  Are we really bringing peace to anyone, or preserving their pain in perpetuity?"  

So the chapter kind of has Arya dancing around those issues and rebuffing them at every turn.  

 

I kind of couldn't escape the concept that The Ugly Girl was given the gift of death, yada yada, blah blah, but that there was a suggestion that her pain, terror and the horror of her existence were actually just preserved forever, vs. having ended.  It was really creepy and there was no real way to bring that across on a screen.  

 

I was trying to figure out who the guy was, because it did just seem so random "Kill this guy...." and she does, she very astutely figures out how to kill him without doing much pondering of why.   When the guy from the Citadel was killed in the prologue of Feast there's at least some suggestion of "Eh....maybe he had it coming?  Even though he really just wanted such a simple, almost pathetically so, existence away from there....riding on a donkey, going town to town to perform repairs..." he was willing to sell out the secrets of the Citadel to secure that.   

 

And truthfully, whereas Aemon seemed a good guy and Luwin also seemingly was a good man, as was the Maester at Storm's End who loved Perpetual Middle Child Syndrome Stannis , specifically because he was all elbows and knees in the emotional lovability department, I sort of came down on the side of:  at present, I've no real reason to believe The Citadel is a force for good.   So maybe it was about Pate selling out the Citadel, but the need to gain access to the Creepy All-Seeing Scentsy Room's Candle.  

 

Here it was just....this dude must die.  As near as I can tell they are just hired assassins vs. any agents of justice.  I kind of already knew that part, but confess it was strange to have to confront it, you know?  "Oh...good.  A little girl really is just in a band of very ritualistic assassins???"  The whole "We are not thieves!" thing was sort of funny.  

Heaven forfend that they stoop to larceny!  It might take them away from face preserving and death delivering.  

[Terra Nova]

At the end of the day, beneath all the quasi-religious talk about the Gift of Death and all the rest, they are paid assassins: they just have a more elaborated view on what they do and why: instead of the death being the means for the ca$h, they have the death as the final goal and the payments is the token and the proof of how desired  and 'worthy' such a death is - in fact it changes wildly depending on who's asking, and sometimes is not even money -.

 

They are not cruel, they do not seem to go on a killing spree (even though Jaqen at the Citadel clearly seems to have a licence to kill), and they're, terrible to say, the best thing that happened to Arya in a long time (the bar is so low it's on the floor), but I have a problem with their faith: they say 'don't judge those people, it's not your place... in the meantime, kill them' ^^' I'm more in the camp of 'do not judge those people... in the meantime, let them live, maybe?'

 

(I think it's another parallel with Sansa: they've both found a 'safe' place for the moment, to have some respite and growth, but these should not be their final resting place; the price for such relative safety - being with assassins on killing missions and in the clutches of Pedofinger - require a price too high: their identity. Luckily neither of them seem to keen on renouncing their names, at the moment. Speaking of remembering your name, I'm sorry that Theon turned out to be alive and quite fine ^^')

Edited February 9, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

I dunno Sansa didn't seem to have as much trouble renouncing her name as Arya did.

[Terra Nova]

Sansa seems to reassert her identity quite strongly:

 

 

"I know Lord Nestor, sweetling. Do you imagine I'd ever let him harm my daughter?"

 

I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, the blood of Winterfell.

 

If anything, it's Arya that goes back and forth from saying that Arya Stark of Winterfell killed Daeron, to thinking about knowing a girl who liked lemocakes and then hastily adding that it's not her, it's some other girl. (Not that I blame her for that, she's younger and still dubious about her comittment with the Faceless Men).

Even without the wolf-dreams, she can't help herself everytime there's something wolfish afoot:

 

 

"Ser Sweetrobin", Robin said, and Alayne knew that she dare not wait for Mya to return. [...] There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as a mountain.

 

Besides, Arya keeps something of herself in all her identities (Cat, the ship Nymeria); Sansa too wanted to choose 'Catelyn' as her alias in the Vale, before Petyr provided her with another backstory. But 'Alayne' is modeled after Jon Snow: she is older than Sansa, the same age Jon was last time she saw him, she's bastard brave and while Sansa likes to dance, she's not so sure about Alayne (as we have learned through Alys Karstark, Jon doesn't dance and never has). Finally, when choosing how to dress in AFfC she picked:

 

 

lambswool, dark brown and simply cut, with leaves and vines embroidered around the bodice, sleeves, and hem in golden thread.

 

House Clegane colors. Plus, now she's shipping Mya Stone with ser Lothor Brune, a.k.a. the orphan bastard girl and the gruff tall knight. 

 

Sansa, in my opinion, reached much faster the point where she separates the Alayne and Sansa personae, and slips in and out them with more ease (again, she's older and more used to lying after her King's Landing experience; also, at some point she is supposed to reclaim her true name).

 

(Book 6 spoiler)

in Mercy's chapter there's the same pattern: not once Mercy thinks of herself as Arya, nor of a memory related to her, but when she's re-playing Lommy's murder the text calls her 'Arya' again. I qould never say that she's losing her identity, only that she got better at keeping it for herself.

 

But yep, I would say that there are clear parallels between the two. And of course they're both developing their skills, differente as they may be.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

That's not House Clegane's colors.

House Clegane colors are bright yellow and black not gold and dark brown. You could say they're close to those colors but that's kind of reaching.

Edited February 9, 2016 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

Arya has had a difficult time embracing a complete loss of identity in order to free her. 

 

Sansa has had a difficult time embracing a false identity to lessen the amount of captivity she's experiencing.  

 

Sansa trades one form of captivity for another, and the Alayne form is less punishing than being Sansa Stark.   It's something offered to her as a form of salvation, to save her from her various forms of imprisonment.  

 

Arya began losing herself by degrees long before she was ever in the house of Black and White and never felt completely comfortable with it.  First it started out with having to pretend she was a boy, then there was at least once when she realized her "Lady mother" ( a terms I really don't like Lady wife, Lady mother, I get that it is a class distinction, but it's reached Words are Wind levels of grating at times) wouldn't recognize her.   Arya is protecting the tiny parts of her identity that she has tried to keep safe.  Only mouthing her list, rather than speaking it.  Learning not to bite her lip.  Not in effort to rid herself of being Arya, as much as to conceal the fact that she's trying to keep parts of Arya.  The only real reason I think she's willing to do it is that she has nowhere to go.  

 

It would be interesting if she were to learn that Arya Stark is married (poor Jeyne Poole), but Arya just hides things, she has no true loss of identity.  

 

Neither does Sansa though.  She's just doing what she can to try and remain safe, or at least a different form of safe and even though it's like hanging out with Uncle Satan, Littlefinger really is the only person she's been around since her father's death who has made her safety a priority, no matter what his motives.  Tyrion didn't precisely do that, although he also made the decision to not harm her, or throw her to the wolves (and then practically broke his own arm patting himself on the back for refusing to say he thought Sansa had Joffrey murdered, because he had offered her his cloak of protection, blah blah, blah blah ....again, I don't give the guy big hero points for not mistreating or abusing the child who was forced into marriage with the people who had her family murdered).  

 

So Tyrion wasn't terrible to Sansa by a long shot, but he also wasn't ever going to get her out of King's Landing and out from under the thumb of the Lannisters at every turn.   I think she accepted the need to pretend to be LF's daughter because ....well....sure, he's evil and is actually the chief architect of much of what has befallen her family, but he saved her life and seems to be the better option.  

 

Kind of like Arya having to decide, "Oh sure, I'm in a Fraternity of Face Peeling Assassins, but really, are they that bad?  I've had to hang around The Tickler and Biter and....really, they could be much worse, all things considered....like the things I've had to consider and see and....Fraternity of Face Peelers it is!"  

 

Neither the Stark girls has a wealth of bargains from which to choose, they've had to choose the lesser of "Well that sucked" over and over. 

[WindyNights]

That reminds me someone showed me this:

http://aireenscolor.deviantart.com/art/The-Stark-Children-539241285

This is closer to what the Stark kids should look like in-canon although it's a more cartoony style.

GRRM used this picture of Jon Snow on his website once though:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/5/5e/MagaliVilleneuve_JonSnow.jpg

But GRRM also approved this:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:MKomarck_JonSnowLC_II.jpg

I put extra Jon Snow so people have alternatives to Kit Harrington who doesn't really do the character justice with those gormless looks.

[Mya Stone]

The middle one is pretty close to how I pictured him in my head. But with more hair.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I feel like Kit has grown into the role, to where I don't have an issue with him, but Harry Lloyd is how I picture Jon Snow while reading: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Harry+Lloyd&FORM=HDRSC2

Edited February 9, 2016 by ImpinAintEasy

[WindyNights]

@imp He's a little old to be Jon Snow:

Kit Harrington looks nothing like the Jon Snow I had in my head. There's a joke that says there is no Jon Snow on GoT just Satin pretending to be Jon.

Because Kit really does look more like what Satin's supposed to look like. I even picture him in my head when I read about Satin.

Speaking of casting, Ben Barnes would've been my perfect casting for Theon Greyjoy but he would've worked great as a Jon Snow alternative.

http://www.canmag.com/images/front/narnia/princecaspianp3.jpg

Edited February 9, 2016 by WindyNights

[ImpinAintEasy]

I age the book characters up in my head, as George even admits he wished he had made the Stark kids older. Harry is only 3 years older than Kit. I first read the books 5 years ago, so a 26-27 year old Harry Lloyd could pass for Jon in my head.

ETA: Ben Barnes is a year older than Harry Lloyd.

Edited February 9, 2016 by ImpinAintEasy

[glowbug]

GRRM's website image and the approved image are both much too old for Jon even in Dance. I think they're even too old for the aged up versions in my head. I think people forget (thanks to all those 20 year olds playing teenagers on TV) how young even a seventeen year old looks, let alone 14 or 15. Ben Barnes isn't a bad choice since he has a younger looking face. Kit isn't who I picture either and I saw the show first.

[WindyNights]

@Imp True although Ben looks less his age than Harry does imo.

I like to pretend that time is moving a lot faster in AFFC and ADWD so everyone ends up being at least two years older especially in lieu of (not for shimpy)

how much older Sansa, Arya and Sweetrobin act in TWOW

Alternatively a Westerosi year is longer in than a year in our world.

[Alayne Stone]

I think the fact that the faceless men kill so indiscriminately is what makes them so creepy. The story about death being a gift and the death worship may be there to help ease along the transition for new acolytes but in the end ... yeah, I really don't think they care too much about who they kill, good, bad, deserving or no. Which is why ultimately Arya needs to get out of there if she's to preserve what sliver of her soul is left to her.

 

I only started reading the books after watching the first two seasons of the show, so everyone who appears in the first two seasons pretty much fits my head cannon. Cersei and Catelyn are slightly different ... I'd say younger if anything else.

 

After that though ... all bets are off.

 

Meera has by far been the most different from how I imagine her in the books. And don't even get me started on the Sand Snakes.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[Ashara Payne]

I must have a dreadful imagination, as I never picture any book characters as having a specific face, they are just a blur in my head, beyond what the author describes. I once had an incredibly vivid dream that was an alternative Harry Potter story. I woke up really excited, thinking I could actually write a story for the first time in my life. I forgot it within five minutes. I've got a couple of creative neurons in there somewhere.

Even if I read a book before seeing a dramatization, I still end up ultimately seeing the actors' faces in my head, as it's just a blank canvas. And of course, the incredible special effects, camera angles and atmospheric music actually make for really enjoyable experience compared with reading. There are pros and cons with both media.

Having said that, I definitely see Arya with a long face, Brienne as ugly, Cersei, Jaime and Dany as more beautiful, Robert as taller, etc. probably like in the artwork, I just can't see detail.

I prefer show Jorah.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Ashara Payne

[WindyNights]

Funnily enough the actor who plays Bran Stark looks quite a bit like Jon Snow especially in his new season 6 haircut:

http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/got-game-of-thrones-9999z-2015-122815-07a.jpg

@Alayne Yeah the Faceless man really are just assassins and there's nothing particularly good about them.

Although I do think Jaquen H'ghar might be a rogue Faceless Man. Faceless Men usually only kill their targets and not anyone else and yet he ended up killing Pate.

I must have a dreadful imagination, as I never picture any book characters as having a specific face, they are just a blur in my head, beyond what the author describes. I once had an incredibly vivid dream that was an alternative Harry Potter story. I woke up really excited, thinking I could actually write a story for the first time in my life. I forgot it within five minutes. I've got a couple of creative neurons in their somewhere.

Even if I read a book before seeing a dramatization, I still end up ultimately seeing the actors' faces in my head, as it's just a blank canvas. And of course, the incredible special effects, camera angles and atmospheric music actually make for really enjoyable experience compared with reading. There are pros and cons with both media.

Having said that, I definitely see Arya with a long face, Brienne as ugly, Cersei, Jaime and Dany as more beautiful, Robert as taller, etc. probably like in the artwork, I just can't see detail.

I prefer show Jorah.

I prefer using artwork to the Live action depictions unless they're really good depictions. Like for instance I always picture Varys looking like TV Varys same with Benjen Stark and Viserys Targaryen.

[glowbug]

I only started reading the books after watching the first two seasons of the show, so everyone who appears in the first two seasons pretty much fits my head cannon. Cersei and Catelyn are slightly different ... I'd say younger if anything else.

After that though ... all bets are off.

Meera has by far been the most different from how I imagine her in the books. And don't even get me started on the Sand Snakes.

I started reading the books after the first two seasons too so most of the characters look like their show counterparts, even ones that look nothing like their description in the books (e.g. Jonah Mormont) but Kit just isn't Jon in my head. Also, Renley looks completely different but that's probably because I strongly disliked the show portrayal of him and liked his book counterpart so much more. He wasn't just miscast, he was miswritten.

I agree completely about Meera. The actress isn't at all like I pictured her in the books. Jojen also looked different in my head but not as different as Meera. Sand Snakes. Ugh.

[stillshimpy]

Kit Harrington looks nothing like the Jon Snow I had in my head. There's a joke that says there is no Jon Snow on GoT just Satin pretending to be Jon.

 

Oh good, it isn't just me who pictures Kit Harrington every time Satin is mentioned.  I think Kit Harrington has done just fine with the role, although it was written to be thankless as hell that first season and it was completely bewildering to me why people seemed so incredibly fond of the character.  To give Harrington his due, he just put his back into playing a really charmless age for a lot of people.  

 

Other random phrase that now has the power to make me flinch:  Half a hundred times.  It's one of the weirder details that Martin likes to revisit.  How many times was poor Lolly raped?  No one ever thinks "dozens" or "more times than would be decent count" (HINT) ...nope, instead every last stinking soul who thinks of it thinks "rape half a hundred times"  like someone was standing around with a grim, grim clicker-counter "....and 48....now calling 48....and 49....oh wait, sorry 49, hold up, 48 wasn't done horrifically violating a mentally delayed young woman but you're up next when he is! And 49 on deck....49 on deck...."   I actually had to start making it funny in my head, so that I didn't throw things.  

 

I know it's Cersei thinking it this time, but holy crap, ENOUGH.  Jeez, Martin, sometimes I think you're going to drive me to drink.  More than I do anyway.  

 

So Cersei's had her walk of shame and it was a little over-the-top because shaving her so that she would come into the world, blah-blah, blah-blah....yeah, she didn't have teeth...or the ability to walk for that matter....but whatever season five

that was remarkably like what the show did except the book version was kind of rougher on Cersei and didn't even begin to pretend she wouldn't need an armed guard to keep her from being torn to bits

 

She had the armed guard, but I did have a difficult time believing that more harm wouldn't have come to her regardless.  Every now and then it becomes obvious that Martin is a man trying to write a woman's thought process and that was pretty evident in a couple of things that Martin has Cersei think.  It's forgivable though, because Cersei is also kind of amusingly batshit.   

I did love that Margaery was already hanging out at the castle.  Likely playing some cute little kids game with Tommen, because there had to be a reason he didn't go to meet his mother.   

 

One of the most disturbing things to come out of the chapter is something that pretty much passes as proof that Littlefinger likely persuaded Joffrey to kill Ned.  Clearly Cersei didn't intend for it to happen and she was thinking about how Varys and Littlefinger had worked it all out....and that Littlefinger had offered to marry Sansa himself and been turned down as being too lowborn.   

 

So....it never goes well for the Seven Kingdoms when Littlefinger's offers of marriage are spurned.  If Hoster Tully had let him marry knocked up Lysa the world would have been a fair less terrible place, at least in theory.  If Cersei had let Littlefinger marry Sansa, what else might this world have been spared?   It was likely Littlefinger or Varys who put the idea into Joffrey's head and it's sort of a toss up as to who it might be.   However, Varys didn't want the world to go to shit before he could install a Targaryen back on the Throne apparently and Littlefinger does have a tendency to very powerfully flip the Kingdoms the damned bird when told he isn't good enough to marry whoever it is he's taken a liking to.  

 

It did surprise me that apparently Cersei hasn't really come to the conclusion that Jaime has purposefully forsaken her, but that fits with how delusional she is.  She thinks that Tommen will be waiting for her at the end of the walk.  She doesn't seem to understand that she's lost all of the men, boys, around her.  

 

It's also a vaguely horrifying thing to learn that freaking Tywin did that to his father's mistress.   Jeez, dude, misogyny much?  Between that and the detail about Baelor the Blessed locking up his sisters so that he wouldn't be tempted by them it was a chapter obviously very purposefully detailing what a difficult world it is to be a woman in and that is part of what twisted Cersei so much.   It really was like a tour of what went into creating Cersei and then also what she had done.  By the time she was hallucinating Ned Stark and Sansa it was almost as if she has a conscience in there somewhere.  

I'm sure she'll end up having poor Septa Unella killed hideously, but she did try to help encourage her along when she fell the second time. So the part of all of that that makes it so obvious that this is a male writer, trying to write a woman's thought process -- and the only reason it isn't completely ridiculous is that Cersei is supposed to be very close to insane -- is that the thing that starts to cause her to break is damage to her vanity.   She keeps telling herself that she's beautiful, etc.  as long as she believes that, then this isn't humiliating and she ends up being undone by the thought that everyone has seen her now and knows that she is not beautiful, because she's older....yada yada...you guys have read the chapter.  

 

So from this I know that George Martin has never really bothered to talk to a woman who has had a baby, because just about the first thing that takes a complete and total powder in the face of prolonged discomfort or pain is vanity.  Nobody cares past a certain point.  Everyone woman who has had a baby can attest to this: you very quickly reach a point of not giving a damn if an entire squadron of male medical students comes in and peers directly up your vaginal canal....and they will... as will any woman who has been in the ER with any gynecological complaint.  The first thing that goes by the wayside?  Giving even on good god damn about how you look.  

 

He finally does have her vanity break, far, far into the process but it's from hallucinating Maggie and being told there will come a younger, more beautiful queen at which point she finally tries to haul it as fast as she can.  

 

I look forward to finding out why Tommen wasn't there, but it was the closest I've ever felt to actual pity for Cersei.  Then ....Robert Strong.  Okay, so Mountainstein is Robert Strong?  Okay, sure.  Why not.  

 

By the way, I can't politely discuss the casting on the Sand Snakes.  That is some infuriating shit.  

Edited February 9, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WindyNights]

Tinfoil theory time:

Gregor Clegane's head was shipped off to Dorne. So is he headless then?

The German word for Strong is Stark. So Robert Stark? Whatever happened to Robb's head? Joff wanted it shipped to KL. What if Qyburn got his hands on it?

Meaning Robert Strong has Robb Stark's head glued to his body.

Dun dun dun.

(Or it's just reaching and GRRM is potentially messing with us)

One of the most disturbing things to come out of the chapter is something that pretty much passes as proof that Littlefinger likely persuaded Joffrey to kill Ned. Clearly Cersei didn't intend for it to happen and she was thinking about how Varys and Littlefinger had worked it all out....and that Littlefinger had offered to marry Sansa himself and been turned down as being too lowborn.

Yeah I think this was also a motivation to have Joffrey killed from LF's point of view despite what he says that it was just a move to baffle people. He wanted to make Cersei suffer for spurning him imo. Edited February 9, 2016 by WindyNights

[Shanna Marie]

While we're picturing Jon Snow, I've been partial to this image from one of the Song of Ice and Fire calendars by an artist friend of mine. He did these after the series was announced, but before there was any casting, so it's based strictly on his interpretation from his reading of the book. If you look at any of the other images over to the left, you may find that they're eerily similar to some of the show casting. Apparently, the producers had some of this artwork hanging in their office during casting because he was close enough that GRRM endorsed it. You can probably easily identify the characters.

[WindyNights]

Looking at that calendar reminded me that they really should've dyed Sean Bean's hair. His hair is too light so it ends up with none of his children having his coloring aside from Rickon Stark.

Then again none of the children look like each other.

But I mean Robb, Arya, Sansa and Rickon at least look like they could be children of Ned and Cat in the show so I'll give them that.

Bran doesn't resemble either of them.

You can hand wave that TV Jon got his looks from his mom like he probably did.

[Haleth]

I see the actors now when I read the books.  I don't mind any of the casting (in terms of appearance) except for the Sand Snakes.  (D&D should be fed to a pack of rabid turkeys for their choices.)  I do prefer the look of show Jorah to the hairy bear described in the books.  I don't mind that Jon Snow is also different.

 

I think recent pics of Bran (that kid is growing up way too fast) makes him look a lot like Michelle Fairley.

 

So from this I know that George Martin has never really bothered to talk to a woman who has had a baby, because just about the first thing that takes a complete and total powder in the face of prolonged discomfort or pain is vanity.  Nobody cares past a certain point.  Everyone woman who has had a baby can attest to this: you very quickly reach a point of not giving a damn if an entire squadron of male medical students comes in and peers directly up your vaginal canal....and they will... as will any woman who has been in the ER with any gynecological complaint.  The first thing that goes by the wayside?  Giving even on good god damn about how you look.

 

Ain't that the truth?

 

With all the dwarf heads dumped at Cersei's feet, it would be hilarious to find out Robert Strong has Penny's brother's head.

[WindyNights]

I'm not sure what's wrong with the SS in terms of appearance. Tyene is less Nordic in the tv show, Nymeria is Oriental rather than Indian and Obara is the same ethnicity although substantially smaller than the actual Obara but they're still diverse appearance wise anyways.

I don't really see it but I mostly concentrate on eyes when I try to note similarities in appearance:

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rantlifestyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/8.-Catelyn-Stark-%2525E2%252580%252593-Game-of-Thrones.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.rantlifestyle.com/2014/04/03/20-worst-tv-characters-time/&h=413&w=500&tbnid=qtau-tQTtTZkCM:&docid=9gSfBj3D1peDVM&hl=en-us&ei=CZK6VqWnFYmOjwPO5KOoDg&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0ahUKEwjlz9y2hezKAhUJx2MKHU7yCOUQMwhhKBowGg

http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/got-game-of-thrones-9999z-2015-122815-07a.jpg

Edited February 10, 2016 by WindyNights

[Ashara Payne]

While we're picturing Jon Snow, I've been partial to this image from one of the Song of Ice and Fire calendars by an artist friend of mine. He did these after the series was announced, but before there was any casting, so it's based strictly on his interpretation from his reading of the book. If you look at any of the other images over to the left, you may find that they're eerily similar to some of the show casting. Apparently, the producers had some of this artwork hanging in their office during casting because he was close enough that GRRM endorsed it. You can probably easily identify the characters.

They are gorgeous pictures, loving the Others not being so monstrously ugly. I think Martin's description of them is practically unfilmable, although a very skilled CGI animator might be capable.

[WindyNights]

I wishthe Ofhers would stop looking like old ice men and more like ice people. I don't mind how they look now I'd just like a little more variety with faces, body shapes, gender and age.

[Alayne Stone]

Lady Nym is described as being very pale skinned with dark hair with the Volantis look that I imagine is like the Targaryen look but with dark hair. Tyene is blonde haired and blue eyed. I just happened to really like the fact that each of the Sand Snakes looks very, very different from one another in the books. To be honest, it's probably less the casting in the show and more the characterizations so now they tend to blur together. Keisha wasn't a bad cast, she was just written horribly. And the actress for Lady Nym is very beautiful. I can't stand Rosetta though. At all. In my head Tyene Sand will always be Holiday Grainger. Nothing will take that away.

 

And wow ... I had completely forgotten Cersei's walk of shame took place in Dance.

 

She hallucinates Melara as well, does she not? All dripping wet presumably from when she drowned in the well? It's definitely Cersei hallucinating all her perceived sins and murders.

 

And Robb Stark's head on Mountainstein is quite possibly the most disturbing image I've ever had. Thanks for that. ;)

 

Ohhhh and I've seen those arts before! So beautiful. I've always been fond of that Sansa/Hound one especially.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[Lady S.]

I thought the reason Tommen wasn't there to meet Cersei was just because a 9yo kid doesn't need to see his mother naked and covered in blood, mud, and shit.

[WindyNights]

Lady Nym has been described as having pale skin in AFFC and olive skin in ADWD. I mean it's either a mistake or she got a tan.

But GRRM has also told Janina Gavankar that she looks like Lady Nym:

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BNDQyNDg3ODQ3N15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDA2ODAxNw@@._V1._SX640_SY962_.jpg

Now the Targs do tan really well. Daenerys is mentioned to be as dark as a Dothraki when she tans and Egg has been mentioned to tan as dark as a Dornishman.

Obara doesn't look like Oberyn and may or may not be his.

And Tyene takes after her mother.

Edited February 10, 2016 by WindyNights

[mac123x]

I look forward to finding out why Tommen wasn't there, but it was the closest I've ever felt to actual pity for Cersei.

 

I thought Uncle Kevan said he Tommen wouldn't be there because he shouldn't see his mother in that sort of state.  Probably a good call.

 

n my head Tyene Sand will always be Holiday Grainger. Nothing will take that away.

 

Oh, that'd be perfect.  She can do that sweet-innocent-total-menace thing.

[stillshimpy]

I thought Uncle Kevan said he Tommen wouldn't be there because he shouldn't see his mother in that sort of state.  Probably a good call.

 

Oh I assumed that was Margaery's call, because sure, in a sane world a nine-year-old shouldn't be called upon to see his mother in such a condition (although I do wonder why he wouldn't be there to see her as soon as she's covered) ....but he's the King and this is the same world that prattles on about "Almost a Man Grown" for seven-year-olds so I didn't actually think it was to spare him anything.  

 

Bran Stark witnessed his first beheading at a younger age.  As for the whole "shouldn't see his mother covered in shit and blood" seems like it takes two seconds to put a cloak around her.  I thought it was hugely significant that Tommen wasn't there and that they only Kingsguard was....whatever the hell Robert Strong is made out of.  Spare parts of Oxen not being out of the question.  So one creepy fallen Maester and her uncle who is more than slightly grossed out by Cersei (who among other things, has screwed his son into religious piety/some form of insanity).  

 

So I thought the very last of the likely actual, true "no really, this is why" reasons had to do with Tommen's age.   

 

Cersei thought he'd be waiting for her and it's not an unreasonable expectation that he would be.  His mother -- his only surviving parent -- has been imprisoned for weeks and accused of all sorts of terrible things that she's confessed to and he's not there to offer a Kingly nod?  Dude, that's weird.   

[WSmith84]

Perhaps Kevan didn't really inform Tommen of what was going on. Tommen probably didn't know that his mother had walked naked through the streets, at least not until later.

[Avaleigh]

I didn't think it was unusual that Tommen wasn't there. Cersei is wrong about pretty much everything so the fact that she thought/hoped he'd be there wasn't all that significant to me.

The walk is horrible on every level but what creeps me out is the audience participation in addition to the line about how once they got the mistress's clothes off that she was 'just another whore' the implication being that all women are whores if they're naked.

I'm totally fine with the High Septon having his head ripped off by some merry widow.

[Terra Nova]

@Windy:

you're right about the colors, I should have checked before posting (I remembered the black to be dark brown, for some reason).

 

Olive skin is described as having golden or yellowish hues, and while it's true that this kind of skin tends to tan fast and without sunburns, it doesn't mean 'brown' (sure, it's extremely common in Mediterranean and Middle Eastern areas, so the tan is almost a given). So it could mean that Nym is pale, with yellowish skin undertones. Seems a little slip on Martin's part though, since she should have a remarkable tan, living in Dorne.

 

 

Meaning Robert Strong has Robb Stark's head glued to his body.

 

Neeeeeeeein! D:

I prefer to think he's just headless, like in Bran's comatose dream, where the armored guy big as a mountain lifts his visor and beneath there's only dark blood. A definite improvement!

(Joking aside, it may be a nod to Ser Strong, the sworn shield of Rhaenyra Targaryen... who was also rumored to have conceived three bastards with him, since her husband was not so interested in the female's charms)

 

@Alayne Stone

Here's a nice interview about that Sandor/Sansa picture:

 

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5917035/sansa-stark-meets-the-hound-the-making-of-my-game-of-thrones-calendar-art-part-3

 

It's interesting that Martin chose that particular composition almost immediately, the one heavily influenced by the poster of Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast:

 

http://41.media.tumblr.com/d27fd0b573fbf7d50ccb3322ee262084/tumblr_mi4qmgW8Ci1ryslx6o1_1280.jpg

 

(the Jean Cocteau being the cinema Martin owes in Santa Fe *wink wink*)

Edited February 10, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Ashara Payne]

The walk is horrible on every level but what creeps me out is the audience participation in addition to the line about how once they got the mistress's clothes off that she was 'just another whore' the implication being that all women are whores if they're naked

I didn't infer that, although it is a valid interpretation. I saw it as that she was after his mother's jewels and fine clothing, which was her motivation for sleeping with him. Which is selling sex, although some people argue that all women do that, too, which is equally bad. I really shouldn't binge-read wehuntedthemammoth. It leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

[stillshimpy]

That artwork is beautiful, by the way and thank you for sharing. I hadn't seen it and although the artist did everyone's mental images a giant favor by aging all the kids up into less disturbing age groups, they're lovely.  

 

I didn't think it was unusual that Tommen wasn't there. Cersei is wrong about pretty much everything so the fact that she thought/hoped he'd be there wasn't all that significant to me.

 

Well I think it's a combination of things.  Tommen as a child-king is only going to know what the people really in charge of ruling will tell him.  They're unlikely to say "Wow, your mom?  Totally accused by the high sept of fucking like....everyone, essentially.  Let's not even talk about what happened to those Kettleback dudes.  They ...uh....went to live on a farm....with...uh...turkeys.  They're happy there, they get to play with all the other retired knights....?"  

 

So Tommen not knowing "Hey, your mother stands accused of incest, promiscuity, having people murdered and some unsavory stuff on top of that....I think it might be best not to allow her to have any court musicians going forward, but that's another matter..."  makes perfect sense.  

 

Since Cersei is not a caregiver to Tommen, it also makes sense that he isn't agitating for "Where's my mommy??"  However, it is unusual that his betrothed comes back from sept prison and Tommen isn't asking things like, "Will my mother be back soon too?" even if they've told him she's off cultivating a root vegetable garden and it takes time for them to grow, it's safe to assume he's asked.  

 

They've told him something and opted out of telling him the truth.  OR...they've told him a version of the truth that includes, "She'll be back....uh....Thursday?  Late in the day.     She'll  likely want to nap....or take a GIANT sedative....to look her best for you..." 

 

They've made some kind of decision about what to tell Tommen and my main interest in that has to do with wanting to know what hand Margaery has played in all of this.  Thus far, Marg has been a blank-ish slate, but the last time Cersei saw her, she had finally completely gathered the "Hey, you're behind this shit!!!" of it all.  This has the potential for fun times, as far as I'm concerned because Cersei's internalized misogyny needs to meet a worthy foe of her own sex.  

 

However, it really is peculiar for a child to be that unattached to their own mother.   Tommen knows he's the King.  Think about the stuff Arya Stark was up to at the same age.  That's plenty old enough for anyone who doesn't have a soft-boiled egg for a brain to realize, "HEY!  I want this....and I'm the KING."  So that leads me to believe there's a good chance Tommen actively doesn't want to see his mother, which would delight me, because like most narcissists, Cersei thinks that all the people who are in her sphere, are actually orbiting around her as their focus.   

Just like it doesn't occur to her that Jaime has chosen not to return for her, because he's grossed out by so much about her.  It apparently never enters Cersei's mind that her sweet son, might have actually been upset with mommy for taking away the playmate of whom he was actually rather fond: Margaery and Loras before her.  

 

The reason I'm so intrigued is there's an awful lot of story possibility in Tommen not being there.  

[Which Tyler]

Alternatively a Westerosi year is longer in than a year in our world.

That's exactly what I do; for most characters, a year must be about 14 Earth months (so a 15 year old is actually 17.5, a 30 year old is actually 35).

However, for the elderly, I simply assume that ages are basically a guess, rounded up a decade or so; so a 90 year old is actually 80-ish, but feels that 90 sounds better.

 

Equally, I assume that a year still has normal seasons, and that there are semi-regular (magically influenced) mini-ice-ages. So every 14 months you get a colder patch, and "summer snows"; and these patterns are predictable and allow the counting of years. However, they don't get referred to as seasons, as those regular mini-ice-ages are so much more important, and frequent enough to over-ride the normal seasons.

[Avaleigh]

Just like it doesn't occur to her that Jaime has chosen not to return for her, because he's grossed out by so much about her.  It apparently never enters Cersei's mind that her sweet son, might have actually been upset with mommy for taking away the playmate of whom he was actually rather fond: Margaery and Loras before her.  

Oh, I think it's definitely occurred to her. She refuses to believe it could actually be, but the possibility has of it has certainly crept into her head once or twice. She thinks something to herself like "No. That she wouldn't believe, couldn't believe." She knows that things aren't right with them. She's deluded enough into thinking that his love for her can trump everything else that's happened and that he'll somehow remain loyal despite the way she's treated him, but she knows it's a possibility in the back of her mind and I think it's lingering there uncomfortably. She knows Jaime has changed and she told him so and I think she fears that the Jaime who would have done anything for her once upon a time is gone. 

[stillshimpy]

That's a fair point, Avaleigh, she does actually think a couple of things and reject them with her next thought, so it does occur to her.  It's just something she actively rejects as a possibility. 

 

It was oddly fitting that the only people waiting for her appeared to be her Uncle, because he had no freaking choice in the matter, it would be the only way to keep her from storming around looking for Tommen if she wasn't satisfied with the situation, Qyburn the Creep and his Patchwork Friend. 

[mac123x]

However, it really is peculiar for a child to be that unattached to their own mother.   Tommen knows he's the King.  Think about the stuff Arya Stark was up to at the same age.  That's plenty old enough for anyone who doesn't have a soft-boiled egg for a brain to realize, "HEY!  I want this....and I'm the KING."

 

Tommen is only like nine years old, and I get the feeling that he was pretty sheltered as a child.  Not to the point that Robin Arryn was, but his behavior does remind me a little of Sansa’s assessment of Robin:  “Eight going on four”.   Add in the fact that since Joffrey’s death, Cercei has been alternately smothering and mentally abusing him (constant criticisms about his appearance and behavior, making him watch / participate in beating his whipping boy, etc), it doesn’t surprise me that he’s not eager to see his mummy.

[WindyNights]

Tommen is also a slow child.

I think he's actually supposed to be slower than Sweetrobin who isn't stupid so much as immature.

Edited February 10, 2016 by WindyNights

[Alayne Stone]

I literally just read the chapter where Cersei orders Tommen to whip his whipping boy Pate for having brought up the whole "I'm the King. I command you..." business (regarding something about Margaery if I am remembering correctly) yesterday. And this has been after Cersei has been actively denying Tommen access to Loras for sword and lance training, frequently threatening to have Pate whipped for Tommen's perceived misbehavior, telling him he can't sit in on council meetings or when court is in session, etc. And forcing a child to inflict physical torture and pain on another child is its own form of child abuse.

 

So, I have to say I really wouldn't be surprised if Tommen was even a little happy that Cersei was away for a bit, especially if it means he gets to spend more time with Margaery and her cousins who are funner and probably a lot nicer to him.

 

That article about the Hound/Sansa artwork was very interesting. Thanks for posting it! I didn't even think about the coloring in relation to the Battle of Blackwater raging outside Sansa's window. :D

Edited February 10, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[stillshimpy]

I was just about to bring up the common psychological response to being emotionally abused by a parent and realized...yeah, there's no way Martin actually did research on what that would actually result in for most children -- kids desperately want their parents approval,I have never gotten the impression that Tommen is supposed to be mentally challenged or delayed, Cersei just won't ever let him do anything and apparently he likes to eat -- but in fairness to Martin there's been no indication that Cersei was an even slightly interested parent to anyone other than Joffrey so he may not really be attached to her in any kind of bonded way.

 

The chapter I was thinking about was actually Cersei being so angry with him for vomiting when forced to be in the same room with a rotting corpse for ungodly amounts of time.  So I can accept that Tommen is likely more emotionally attached to nannies/Septas/maids/servants/cats than he is to Cersei.  

 

It's still strange.  Even within that world.  Robert/Robin is creepily attached to his mother and he's meant to have some kind of neurological disorder on top of that (the shaking and having fits...I can't tell if Martin's shooting for epilepsy or what).  The POV's we get from almost any other character mention that "My Lady Mother" thing that drives me kind of up a tree.  

 

I don't know, I think Tommen suffers not from any sort of developmental delay, but also from having grown up with Joffrey for a brother (yeah, hanging out in the nursery with him would have been a delight), Robert doesn't seem like he was actively cruel to his children, although...yes, I remember the....yeah, I remember Joffrey's vivisection and Robert's reaction to it...but ...dude, that one actually made me think more highly of Robert and I'm not fan of children being beaten either.  

 

So even within this world, even within the Baratheon family, having zero emotional attachment to a parent is weird.  I mean, good lord, Joffrey wanted his father's approval.  Well, you know, the person he thought was his father.  

Edited February 10, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Autarch]

For another take on Jon Snow, see Justin Sweets version. George apparently liked it enough that he has the original painting hanging in his house. He's one of the few artists who understands what having a long face means.

As for the name Robert Strong, this is another instance of George reasserting the notion that history is a wheel. In Feast we're told about Ser Lucamore the Lusty, a knight of the Kingsguard whose real name was Lucamore Strong, and how his entire life was a lie. I don't know why Qyburn got the notion to call him Robert, but George did it, I think, to take the idea of Cersei playing king to the next level; with Jaime gone this is Cersei's new other half.

Maybe Qyburn thought it would please her, in the way that it can be seen as a harsh comment on Robert's character.

[stillshimpy]

Well, hopefully Cersei's power will be somewhat limited going forward.  She's too terrible at ruling to actually be entertaining past the initial "Oh holy shit, you're incredibly bad at this!! Shortsighted Cersei, animated by malice, poor-planning and arrogance."  Also, her complete delight at a freaking Golem of a champion in KingsLanding ...sworn never to speak until her enemies are vanquished (hello Golem of Prague, how have you been? Oh good, oh good, still creepy as fuck and entirely silent, good to know.  Do let us know when you're about to run amok with your super-strength, if you will.  Cheers!")  and Cersei's too daft to realize that having an Overly Strong Thing as her protector might be a bad idea.  For a woman terrified of the thing that's going to strangle her, that was an eyebrow raise.  I did experience a bit of a jaw-drop at all the religious symbols all over him.  Martin decide to swing from the heels there. 

 

I read Tryion Joins the Second Sons chapter.  At least his wit is back, vs. the mouth that makes you wish he'd be a Scooby Snack for a Dragon.   Yeah, yeah, I noted still more Turkey abuse.   You've got a problem there, Martin, you truly do.  

 

Also, every time I read the name Aerion Targaryen I get earwormed by this:   Sesame Street Song.  Or alternatively I hear Mame's "An Aryan from Darien with braces on her brains"