Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[WindyNights]

I really doubt it though.

Weirwood paste is described in the same way that the Shade of the Evening is described.

Interestingly enough weirwoods are red and white and the plant that the shade of the evening comes from is blue and black.

[WSmith84]

I don't actually believe the theory either, but I thought that I would mention it.

[stillshimpy]

Wow. But ...blood would blend, it would color everything rather than stand out in veins. Easily the most disturbing sentence to type first thing in the morning, before coffee.

In a related note, we watched The Martian last night and Sean Bean was in it, playing a good guy. Everyone in that movie are varying degrees of good, fun if you want a movie where it's all about the possible and positive. Bean must like playing the hero more as he gets older.

Anyway my point is: that weird feeling that GOT is everywhere persists :-)

[John Potts]

Re: The Martian: Sean Bean does make a (sort of) heroic sacrifice in it, though at least he gets to keep his head. Good film, though - we need more films where the hero succeeds "By the awesome powers of Botany!"

 

On the subject of Weirwood paste, can I just say... Ewww. I had never considered that it contained anyone's blood, but I definitely can't dismiss the idea. If it's some grand gambit to put Bran where he needs to be to do... whatever, wouldn't it make more sense to

sacrifice Meera though? To go back to chess terminology, Jojen is more like a bishop whereas but Meera is only a pawn (while Bran is a pawn about to promote to Queen) at least from Bloodraven's perspective (possibly). Though even sacrificing a bishop would be worth gaining a queen, I suppose.

 

Sorry about my previous post, which did contain a (fairly minor) spoiler. I would swear "By the Old Gods and the New" that it won't happen again, but a) I don't believe in either and b) it's a case of posting without thinking, which I can pretty much guarantee I'll do again. At least the Mods were on top of it, because by the time I got back to it, it had already been edited (so thanks for that).

 

ETA: When it comes to Bran Warging into Hodor, I don't imagine that Bran thinks it's perfectly fine, but is it (in his mind) like borrowing something without permission or punching somebody in the face? Both are wrong but they're not equally wrong. And even wrong actions can be right if circumstances demand it (like smashing somebody's window to save them from a fire - or Warging into Hodor to keep him quiet when he was about to give away their position in S3)

Edited January 17, 2016 by John Potts

[Haleth]

Sean Bean is dreamy, whether he plays the good guy or bad guy.

We only go to one or two movies in the theater a year and we did so for The Martian.  Loved it.  Great fun movie. 

Good film, though - we need more films where the hero succeeds "By the awesome powers of Botany!"

 

Yay, science!

[stillshimpy]

That and "we will keep this between scientists which made tear-up because it was AWESOME !

I didn't see whatever it was you posted, by the way, but I can completely understand how that happens. It happened to me when discussing where I am and I ended up throwing in everything from Jon's next chapter that I had read. If it's difficult for me to keep clear track of what happened in which chapter, reading at a very measured pace, then it has to be nigh on impossible for you guys at times, so I appreciate your efforts but fully understand the challenge.

[Ballade]

Hi stillshimpy! Just registered on the site just so I could come tell you how very much I'm enjoying your commentary as you read. After the total disillusionment with GoT that I experienced last season (and the lack of book 6 in my hands NOW), it's great reading along with you and catching your reactions to all the many things that were left out or changed on the show and to talk about the characters I love. Cheers!

 

And yes on the Sean Bean love (though honestly I thought he was a little miscast as Ned). I didn't know he was in The Martian, but now that just give me more reason to watch it. 

Edited January 17, 2016 by Ballade

[Terra Nova]

Some fan-cast actually mentioned Sean Bean, Sharpe-era, as Jaime Lannister XD he had the cocky attitude, that's for sure.

And he allegedly talked with the show-runners asking for details about Jon's parentage, since he thought Ned too honorable to act that way. So yep, thumbs up for Sean.

 

 

On the Bran subject: there's a theory floating around (I've seen it sponsored by Poorquentyn on Tumblr, but I don't know who came up with that first) that states that Euron Greyjoy was in his youth Bloodraven's pupil and was later discarded because he's... well, he's Euron ^^'

Proof would be his mention about dreams of flying when he was a child, and that maybe everyone can, and the only way to know is to jump from some tower, his dabbling with magic and evening shade, the twisted crow simbolism (only one eye instead of three, to suggest a loss instead of a gain), his statements that he knows 'all Westeros is dying', as if he knows about the Others.

 

Still crackpotty, but a fascinating theory :)

Edited January 17, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Ballade]

Some fan-cast actually mentioned Sean Bean, Sharpe-era, as Jaime Lannister XD he had the cocky attitude, that's for sure.

And he allegedly talked with the show-runners asking for details about Jon's parentage, since he thought Ned too honorable to act that way. So yep, thumbs up for Sean.

 

 

On the Bran subject: there's a theory floating around (I've seen it sponsored by Poorquentyn on Tumblr, but I don't know who came up with that first) that states that Euron Greyjoy was in his youth Bloodraven's pupil and was later discarded because he's... well, he's Euron ^^'

Proof would be his mention about dreams of flying when he was a child, and that maybe everyone can, and the only way to know is to jump from some tower, his dabbling with magic and evening shade, the twisted crow simbolism (only one eye instead of three, to suggest a loss instead of a gain), his statements that he knows 'all Westeros is dying', as if he knows about the Others.

 

Still crackpotty, but a fascinating theory :)

 

In the very first episode of GoT, when Ned and Jaime have that little confrontation at Winterfell, I swear Nikolaj Coster-Waldau looks so much like Sean Bean (like he could have easily played Faramir to Bean's Boromir!) that for a few moments, I was thinking that the family bloodlines were SUPER messed up if Jaime Lannister was Ned Stark's little brother :P

 

Re: Euron's magic/blue lips, I don't remember where this comes up in the books so it may be a SPOILER for Stillshimpy, and I will err on the side of caution:

I thought the text established that he'd been to Asshai and the shade of the evening stuff was the same as the warlocks of Qarth used (also Tyrion also apparently dreamt of flying and I'm pretty sure he wasn't part of Bloodraven's School of One-Eyed Magic :D) But I have to admit I'm a bit vague on the details with Euron because he creeps me out so much that I read his chapters very quickly to get through them. I want him to meet the same hopefully pointy fate as Littlefinger!

Edited January 17, 2016 by Ballade

[Terra Nova]

also Tyrion also apparently dreamt of flying

 

But he wanted to have a dragon and fly on its back, it's not the same ;)

But yeah, most of these theories have flimsy evidence to back them up, but still, this one is more believable than the Daario is Euron or Daario is a secret Targaryen or the Elder Brother is Rhaegar or Mance Rayder is Rhaegar and so on.

[stillshimpy]

Hi Ballade, and welcome aboard. Thank you, that is a remarkably kind thing to share and I appreciate it. I also appreciate knowing that I'm not the only one who thought him an odd pick for Ned, I just think of him as having easily accessed emotion, even if he isn't demonstrative, if that makes sense. In most of his roles he is embodying someone who plays his cards close to the vest, but he still has enough expression to be easily read. It's a fairly rare skill. So his Ned was not guarded enough for me, at times.

Still, it's Sean Bean, so I adored him.

Weird aside I never thought I'd write: I find myself missing Littlefinger's involvement in this book. I guess I got used to having the architect of chaos around.

I've finished the next Tyrion and Theon's chapters. I'm on a tablet so spoiler tagging if near misery, so there will be allusions to, but no outright spoilers for season five's oddity in the next couple of paragraphs. It's fun understanding who the singer and his washer women doing recon are.

First up Tyrion though. That chapter is a good example of tyrion's best and worst traits. Worst: blaming Sansa for being "false" in a marriage she was forced into is ludicrous and he should know that. Also, his tendencies to open his old wounds and dwell in self-pity was on full display. Enough about Shae's supposed treachery already, she was a prostitute, he knew it enough, dude, enough.

However, since it is also a journey of self-actualization for him, I am enjoying reading about Tyrion navigating a world as someone who can't simply use his hated father's name as his perpetual shield. Since Tyrion could sorely use a bit a lesson in how to view things from another's perspective, I like it. Of course the dog and pig stuff just makes me think it exists to make me care more when something horrible happens to both. I am becoming desensitized out of necessity, which often happens when something is used too often.

On Theon's chapter here's the season five vague stuff: nice to see that the Northeners actually would give a good gods damn if Ramsay was so obviously mistreating a Stark, show, take note. Here's hoping that goes somewhere. Poor Theon's as a wreck of a man at Winterpile, realizing he loved the Starks is sad, but also pointless as he stands in a hell of his own making. Here is hoping he does something eventually.

Bit of a placeholder chapter though. Also Lady Dustin's timeline seems off for the whole "Catelyn got Ned Stark too, so I had to marry Dustin and had been wed for six months at the time of the war". Ned was married off to Ned right as the rebellion was starting because Brandon had just been killed with his father. History being perverted by the teller of the tale seemed on full display there too... And the story of her virginity being lost to Brandon seemed like pure fiction. He would have been unlikely to screw a Lord's daughter, he would have more likely gone to brothels if he was a different sort of Stark. Also her perception of Stark social climbing also seemed a lie she was either telling Theon, or herself.

Edited January 17, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

I never considered that Lady Dustin might be lying about Brandon. If she was telling the truth, I think her 'it's all the maesters' fault' schtick is definitely just a way to excuse Brandon of wrongdoing. As you might imagine, some Targaryen fans have leapt onto the 'southron ambitions' line as proof that Rickard Stark was up to no good, in an attempt to make Aerys' actions look a little less appalling. Of course, Rickard's 'southron ambitions' might have been nothing more than securing his southern border, or attempting to get the Starks a little more involved in southern politics. Or he might have been forming a power bloc to defend against/attack the crown. Considering how little the Starks have had to do with the crown prior to this and their geographical distance from the capital, it would seem odd, to me at least, for the Starks to make themselves the centre of an anti-Targaryen consiracy.

[WindyNights]

I'm actually inclined to believe that thing about Stark social climbing. Because it is extremely odd how the heir of a Lord Paramount was betrothed to the second in line daughter of another as well as having his second born fostering with a different Lord Paramount. A Lord Paramount that happened to be childless. Also Lyanna, Lord Rickard's only daughter was set to be married by the Lord of the Stormlands. That's 3 different Starks heavily involved with 3 other Lord Paramounts which I think is unprecedented as far as I can tell for Lord Paramounts.

Like in the past, the Starks mostly keep to themselves and not even other Lord Paramounts involve themselves like the Starks did in the last generation.

[stillshimpy]

Well and I ended up wondering what she could possibly be up to. Admittedly as a character she has already had one weird "expos it my ass off" moment with Theon, but the stuff about Ned's wandering bones never making it to Winterpile was at least a little senseless, I thought. It's not exactly a giant insult to his memory to keep his bones from ever being laid to rest in his sacked home, held by the man who had his son murdered as well as his wife, in the ashes of the place he loved.

As sick burns go, it sort of doesn't rate. I get that it is meant as revenge for not bringing her husband's body home, but better revenge would have been to bring them home, to the derelict pile under Bolton's rule and dump them in a pauper 's grave outside the town brothel. She needs to bone up on eternal burns.

Or she's actually up to something, because I mistrust showy displays of animosity. Particularly when she is clearly in the know about how loyal Theon wouldn't actually be to Ramsay in anything other than a "whatever it takes to get you to stop hurting me" way. Theon knowing it is only a matter of time before Ramsay starts hurting him again is also something that will spur him to some kind of chance taking.

But as for Rickard having Southern ambitions, marriages were always used for alliances, that hardly spells coup.

[WSmith84]

@ Windy Nights

 

Well, according to GRRM

Robert proposed the match to Rickard, not the other way around. Rickard had no reason to say no to such a match; after all, Robert was Ned's best friend and heir to/lord of the Stormlands.

 

Ned and Benjen were both unwed and unpromised, so Rickard still had sons to marry to his bannermen as well. Also, we know that the Martells tried to marry into the Lannister family (with Joanna Lannister's help) and Tywin tried to marry Jaime to Lysa (and Cersei to Rhaegar), whilst he was still Aerys' Hand. So it seems like every Lord Paramount was trying to marry another, not just the Starks. I suspect that this is likely due to the War of the Ninepenny Kings. I suspect that many of the various LPs became friends, allies or comrades during that war and thus led to closer ties between the various regions, which led to the greater number of marriages between those houses. TWOIAF spoiler

We know that Aerys, Tywin and Steffon Baratheon became close during that war, as did Hoster Tully and Petyr Baelish's father. It stands to reason that other friendships were formed in the conflict.

[Terra Nova]

 A Lord Paramount that happened to be childless. 

 

But not heirless, since his sister's beloved son, Elbert Arryn, was proclaimed his heir. The poor boy died with all others Brandon Stark's squires when he was seized in King's Landing (safe the Glover heir, left alive to tell the tale).

 

Which could even be 'evidence' of some conspiracy, but I think what's odd is the Starks NOT being involved at all in the politics south of the Neck. While marrying into most of their vassal houses*** is a smart strategy, shunning marriages with other major families was not. So yes, surel Rickard Stark was trying to create some advantageous political union. But was he planning to create some power-block to overthrow the King? I don't really think so. Aerys was sure of that, but the guy was afraid even of his own barber...

 

My take on Lady Dustin is that she loved Brandon, as a young girl may love some dashing lord, and she wanted to blame Catelyn, Rickard Stark, Rickard's maester, someone, for preventing her from being with him. So of course everything was just shifted to Ned.

Now it can go both ways: does her hatred for the last generation of Starks makeher jump into Bolton arms? Or despite everything deep down she knows that 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell'?

 

 

*** but not, as far as we know, the Boltons :D feel the burn. There are speculations that the flaying traditions of the Bolton are just a poor attempt at imitating the natural skinchanging abilities of the Starks - since as Bloodraven said, it's genetic -, or at mocking them in a 'I'm wearing the skin of the skinwearer' fashion.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

Well if the Starks were plotting against the Crown-- which I doubt because king Aerys Bananpants was just insane and paranoid, it seems like betrothing One one of the Starks or some of his banner men's heirs to Frey's giant litter would have been necessary and apparently no one was willing to take it that far.

Lady Dustin knows Theon actually loved the Starks though, so choosing a famous traitor with a lot of reasons to hate the Bolton's into her confidante is a weird move. Maybe she's just dim but filling him in on whi is most likely to turn on Bolton is also"uh? Is that wise?"

[WindyNights]

Well if the Starks were plotting against the Crown-- which I doubt because king Aerys Bananpants was just insane and paranoid, it seems like betrothing One one of the Starks or some of his banner men's heirs to Frey's giant litter would have been necessary and apparently no one was willing to take it that far.

Lady Dustin knows Theon actually loved the Starks though, so choosing a famous traitor with a lot of reasons to hate the Bolton's into her confidante is a weird move. Maybe she's just dim but filling him in on whi is most likely to turn on Bolton is also"uh? Is that wise?"

I actually got the sense was while she was so showy towards her animosity towards Ned, it was kind of an act to make Roose think he had a good ally in her if he ever decided to squeeze Theon for information.

[Terra Nova]

Ironically, the only one I'm dead sure was plotting against Aerys was his golden boy Rhaegar: as he said to Jaime: "When this battle is done, I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago but... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return" *proceeds to have the chest smashed by Bob's hammer*

 

What council was he talking about? A council like the one that decided Egg was the next in line to the Throne, after discarding his demented uncle because unfit. So Rhaegar knew his daddy was bonkers (even Jon Connington said that much in his chapter), but instead of deposing him he first had to go, kidnap (YMMV) a half-child and then hide in a tower for almost a year. Wow. Rhaegar, come and take me too, you're just so dreamy!

[dragonbone]

Lady Dustin's monologue here can launch a thousand theories.  No doubt, it's blend of intentional misdirection, unreliable witness, and actual backstory that will be relevant to the story.  I have no reason to mistrust her love for Brandon though.  My bet is that part happened. 

 

Also no reason to believe her on Ned's bones.  I think we're being told that Ned's bones haven't made it back because the North is cut off from the rest of the realm by war.  This may be impacting other things that haven't been delivered North... like whatever happened to Robb's letter to Jon and the people who were delivering it?

 

 

I bet that Rickard did have "Southron Ambitions" of some sort or another.  The set of allegiances built for the North at the start of the war is very strange. Building alliances doesn't fall into the realm of treason..but maybe the Mad King didn't see it that way.  Yes the Mad King overreacted, but I suspect many of actions were rooted in fact/situation on the ground.

 

 

 

[Ballade]

Ironically, the only one I'm dead sure was plotting against Aerys was his golden boy Rhaegar: as he said to Jaime: "When this battle is done, I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago but... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return" *proceeds to have the chest smashed by Bob's hammer*

What council was he talking about? A council like the one that decided Egg was the next in line to the Throne, after discarding his demented uncle because unfit. So Rhaegar knew his daddy was bonkers (even Jon Connington said that much in his chapter), but instead of deposing him he first had to go, kidnap (YMMV) a half-child and then hide in a tower for almost a year. Wow. Rhaegar, come and take me too, you're just so dreamy!

Terra Nova, I'm not arguing with your take on Rhaegar but your timing is off; Rhaegar had that conversation with Jaime whilst on his way to the Battle of the Trident (Jaime begs to accompany Rhaegar - which would have been interesting, had Selmy or Darry remained behind with the Mad King planning to blow up the city. Rhaegar tells Jaime that he's a hostage in KL basically so Tywin won't turn against Aerys and leaves him with Elia and the children - also hostages.) so Lyanna had already run off/been kidnapped, the Starks were already dead (and Aerys had already burned another Hand IIRC and raped Rhaella and all that full-on crazy) and there was a massive rebellion going on. Not sure I would characterize Rhaegar as plotting against his father here; I think he probably should have deposed Aerys BEFORE he left for the Trident but on the other hand, hard to go fight against the "rebels" if you've just removed the guy they're rebelling against and then turn around and claim legitimacy for your own rule. plus, I think Rhaegar and Aerys had burned too many bridges (and in Aerys's case, the bridges were people): there was no possibility of a truce with the Starks/Arryn/Baratheon/Tully faction given that Aerys had slaughtered so many of their heirs/children/betrotheds of their children and Rhaegar wouldn't return Lyanna to her family (even if she was willing which we don't know.)

What I blame him for more is not explaining anything about WHY he took off with Lyanna in the first place and then for being incommunicado while Aerys was roasting people and lastly and maybe most importantly for not insisting that his father send Elia and the children to safety somewhere.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Ballade

[dragonbone]

So Rhaegar knew his daddy was bonkers (even Jon Connington said that much in his chapter), but instead of deposing him he first had to go, kidnap (YMMV) a half-child and then hide in a tower for almost a year.

 

I think Aerys knew this or suspected this.  Rhaegar had to stay away or he would have ended up bunt as well.  Aerys saw plots against him everywhere.  We've seen how Kings Landing works and it makes me think he might have been right about many of them.

 

 

[Terra Nova]

your timing is off; 

 

I mentioned the kidnapping because Rhaegar specifically says that he should have done that (calling a council for deposing his father) 'long ago'. Also (A World of Ice and Fire)

Aerys appeared unexpectedly at the Harrenhal tournament, the first time he left the Red Keep after the Defiance of Duskendale - and incidentally shocking everyone who saw him because of the way he looked - because Varys reported him that the tournament was a ruse of Rhaegar, an excuse to summon high lords and start gauging who would have been fine with the deposition. I think this rumor has solid basis, and even a precedence with the aborted Second Blackfyre Rebellion at Butterwell's castle

So, there's more than a year, actually I think up to one year and a half between the tournament at Harrenhall and Lyanna's death, with Rhaegar, his buddy buddy Dayne and the Whent guy practically missing for most of the time. So the kidnapping happened after Rhaegar already came to the conclusion that his father was a lost cause. And Aerys by that point had been too far gone for years.

But on the rest I agree with you, by the time Rhaegar resurfaced it was too late and no truce or peace with the rebel faction could have been reached.

 

ETA: Dragonbone, I don't think Rhaegar really considered to be in danger of a healthy crisping by his father: first because he seems to me exactly the Targ guy who believes to be the REAL dragon, so he can't die before making the prophecy come true, and second because when Gerold Hightower finally found him he went back to King's Landing immediately, without even a Kingsguard to protect him - and I'm sure some of the KGs were on board with his plotting... as Jaime says, Dayne was Rhaegar's closest friend; some of them would have protected him over his father, if it came to that -. Nor he seems particulary distressed in his last conversation with Jaime.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Ballade]

I mentioned the kidnapping because Rhaegar specifically says that he should have done that (calling a council for deposing his father) 'long ago'. Also (A World of Ice and Fire)

Aerys appeared unexpectedly at the Harrenhal tournament, the first time he left the Red Keep after the Defiance of Duskendale - and incidentally shocking everyone who saw him because of the way he looked - because Varys reported him that the tournament was a ruse of Rhaegar, an excuse to summon high lords and start gauging who would have been fine with the deposition. I think this rumor has solid basis, and even a precedence with the aborted Second Blackfyre Rebellion at Butterwell's castle

So, there's more than a year, actually I think up to one year and a half between the tournament at Harrenhall and Lyanna's death, with Rhaegar, his buddy buddy Dayne and the Whent guy practically missing for most of the time. So the kidnapping happened after Rhaegar already came to the conclusion that his father was a lost cause. And Aerys by that point had been too far gone for years.

Well, yes, Aerys was certainly eccentric for years BUT it's a pretty big deal to depose your own father the king when he hasn't actually done anything to that point (besides having poor Ilyn Payne's tongue cut out.) It's only after Aerys actually starts burning great lords alive and provokes a massive rebellion that you kind of have grounds to take him from office (that's the problem with a hereditary monarchy, really.) just being run of the mill cruel isn't enough (or Tywin Lannister wouldn't be Warden of the West!) and I don't think Rhaegar would have had the support he needed to remove Aerys anyway until everyone was clear on the fact that he was a batshit crazy pyromaniac. Especially since many of the witnesses to his crazy - ie the Kingsguard - were sworn to keep the King's secrets, and go along with whatever he was doing (hence all of them standing around while he incinerated Rickard Stark.)

Not sure what his appearance at the Harrenhal tourney has to do with Rhaegar deposing him then? Aerys hadn't anything to any of the great lords except maybe Tywin at that point and I doubt they would have rallied to Tywin's cause.

I think Rhaegar is saying "I should have done this long ago" because he, like everyone else, didn't realize just how insane his father really was until Aerys started burning people alive, not that he was actually PLANNING to do that at Harrenhal or would have had the political capital had he tried anything like it - you know, the way I might say "I should have taken a different route because I was caught up in a terrible car wreck" when I wouldn't have had much reason to take the other route UNTIL the car wreck.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Ballade

[Terra Nova]

But there's at least one precedence: mad Targaryens have been barred from succession (Rhaegel and his daughters). Also, Aerys (spoiler because not sure when it's said)

already gave signs of madness well before the Defiance - and after that, everything was just amped up to the eleventh -.

Councils have been summoned also in case of several possible heirs to the Throne with almost equal claims. We can say that a Council has the power to choose a king (after all, that's what happened with Robert, who was acclaimed King and therefore legitimated in his claim).

 

We don't know Rhaegar's plan, but he seems to have +20 to all his Charisma rolls, so I don't think it impossible for him to win lords to his cause. There were lords who defected to the Blackfyres because Daeron didn't look like a warrior, while Daemon did XD Rhaegar has all the superficial charms of the courtly knight, the idealized embodiement of a true prince so he must be a good King too.

And if not with his charm, with promises: a lot of second sons and smaller Houses followed the Blackfyre for advancing their position. 

I don't think finding supporters would have been that big of a problem. 

 

Now, because of the title 'Protector of the Realm', we can safely conclude that, once a King starts to kill without reason his Lords Paramount, he violates the social contract and looses de facto et de iure any right to the crown. That's why Robert's Rebellion wasn't only justified, it was right. At this point, a council isn't even needed to state that the King should be deposed.

 

So the deposition of Aerys before the Rebellion could have been based on his madness and inadequacy as a ruler, after the Rebellion it's basically self-defense for the Lord Paramounts and a punishment for Aerys' crimes. In the latter case, obviously, installing his son may have lost its charms.

 

RE: your spoiler:

Rhaegar could see what his mother was suffering at the hands of Aerys, as well as all the others hints that he was losing his mind: the nurses tortured, the increasing violence after each abortion or stillbirth, all of this may have been kept a secret by the KGs (and that's not the case, since Maester Yandel wrote down everything), but Rhaegar at court would have been well aware of that. Or he decided that, being the father of the Prince That Was Promised, he needed to become king or whatnot. We don't know exactly why Rhaegar wanted to depose his father, but there's enough textual evidence to say that it was indeed his plan. Yandel even says 'few doubted that Aerys had taken leave of his senses'. Aerys rushed to Harrenhal because Varys warned him of a conspiracy brewing there, so he thought that his presence alone would have been enough to cower the lords and regain the love of the commoners (with fingernails one meter long and hair unwashed, lol!).

 

We don't have enough infos, but I'm sure they will be given in next books: if Rhaegar was really plotting, anyway, it won't come as that surprising, all hints considered. I think he was, he said 'I meant to do this long ago', not just I "I should have done this long ago"

Edited January 17, 2016 by Terra Nova

[dragonbone]

Spoiler for the rest of aDwD 

 

 

Aerys rushed to Harrenhal because Varys warned him of a conspiracy brewing there, so he thought that his presence alone would have been enough to cower the lords

 

We are told this so that we know Varys had a role it Harrenhal.  If you buy that he's a Blackfyre supporter he's not really trying to help the Targaryen side out here.

 

Varys whispers all kinds of things in the Kings ear and plays on his paranoia .  I'm sure he tried to destabilize things as much as possible via whispering the worst things possible the facts would support.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Starks got burned because Varys told the King they were coming for him.  I wouldn't be surprised if we found out he was behind creating a split between Tywin and Aerys. Who knows exactly what he said about Rhaegar.. but it wouldn't surprise me if he did everything in his power to play the two adult Targaryens off each other with the aim of having them fight each other.

Edited January 17, 2016 by dragonbone

[Brn2bwild]

Re: Lady Dustin and Brandon Stark: all I have to say is if I never again read her sentence about seeing her maiden's blood on Brandon's cock, it will be too soon.

[Haleth]

Martin had such a way with words.  Ugh.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, actually her wording in that sentence was what made me think everything outside of having been in love with Brandon was bullshit. The sentence about keeping his sword sharp didn't sound at all like something a teen boy would say to a Lord's daughter. Just as strikingly it didn't sound like something Ned's brother would have said. I know they were fostered at different estates, but they would have been children together and that sounded like something freaking Joffrey would say.

Also, even Cersei knew that the whole "virgins bleed the first time!" Was bullshit for anyone who sat a horse for any length of time.

So all of that seemed like someone engaging in passing on the almost entirely fictional version of the strange fantasy life of her teen years, regarding the boy she liked. Sounded more like a lie she had told herself so often she had forgotten it was bullshit.

I know Martin has some of the worst sex scenes around. Seriously, I would live a happy life never having to read his sex scenes ever again. They are all repulsive and in fairness to the man, they are so bad, I assume they are meant to be so. Having said that, that took it to a new and horrifying level of repellent, so I am assuming there was a reason for that.

Edited January 18, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Trisan]

Speaking of sex scenes, you've read one of the few more... "romantic / traditional" one a few chapters ago : the Asha one.

 

She's really quite unique as far as female characters go, imo, and I really enjoy her chapters (and characters) for that (and her tone, she really cracks me up quite often !). 

And you should see her again quite soon ! ^^

[stillshimpy]

You mean the one where they were basically role-playing a rape?!?

God help us all, but even knowing that pretty much has to be the one to which you refer , my actual reaction to your post was, "yeah, that one wasn't quite as disgusting as the others" .

Did I ever tell you guys how my husband figured out Robb was a goner? After his sex scene with Talisa he told me: "well he's obviously doomed, they just had sex actual people would have."

He wasn't wrong.

Edited January 18, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

I don't know if this was mentioned or not, but the character of Talisa led to the term 'honeypotting' being used about the show. Basically, no one could believe that such a ridiculous character could actually exist (a noble lady wandering around battlefields as a nurse, completely unescorted) so people came up with a theory that she was actually a plant by Tywin i.e. a honeypot. This turned out to be false, obviously, and so now, whenever the show does something seemingly ridiculous and fans create theories to explain it, we call it 'honeypotting.' Unfortunately, honeypotting has become more and more frequent as the show has gone on.

 

I don't have a problem with the Asha/Qarl sex scene because of the roleplaying bit; I hear it's quite common for powerful people to like to feel dominated in the bedroom. My problem is that they are both Ironborn, who have a certain glorification of rape in their society. Considering that cultural background, Asha enjoying the rape roleplay becomes a little disturbing, for me at least.

[Trisan]

You mean the one where they were basically role-playing a rape?!?

 

 

Okay, yeah, maybe I have distorted memories of that one ! I will have to reread the scene ! 

 

But still, it was just role-playing, which is already a little bit more normal and not-as-scary-as-a-lot-of-other-sex-scenes-in-that-goddamn-saga ! ^^

And both of them were consentant. Asha is leading the game and she has a lot more sayings in her sex life than a lot of other women in the story, which I (at least) find a little bit refreshing. She had fun with it, that's what I mean, actually, and it's not the case for a lot of other women having sex in that story !

 

Considering that cultural background, Asha enjoying the rape roleplay becomes a little disturbing, for me at least.

 

 

Oh, I didnt see that point. Yeah, good one actually... 

Edited January 18, 2016 by Trisan

[vibeology]

Bit of a placeholder chapter though. Also Lady Dustin's timeline seems off for the whole "Catelyn got Ned Stark too, so I had to marry Dustin and had been wed for six months at the time of the war". Ned was married off to Ned right as the rebellion was starting because Brandon had just been killed with his father. History being perverted by the teller of the tale seemed on full display there too... And the story of her virginity being lost to Brandon seemed like pure fiction. He would have been unlikely to screw a Lord's daughter, he would have more likely gone to brothels if he was a different sort of Stark. Also her perception of Stark social climbing also seemed a lie she was either telling Theon, or herself.

 

The whole timeline of Robert's Rebellion is very messed up. I think Martin, trying to make the babies all work out, really didn't think through what would actually happen in an active rebellion/civil war situation. Lyanna gets kidnapped, Brandon Stark goes to Kings Landing, Aerys arrests him and all his companions. The fathers come to ransom their sons and the sons and fathers all get killed. Right away Jon Arryn revolts and calls his banners and Robert goes to Storm's End to call his banners. There are a couple of battles right away and Storm's End is sieged for nearly a year. Meanwhile, Ned marries Catelyn and Jon marries Lysa. Ned has to then go North, call his banners and ride back south to join the rebellion. (I assume that's where the delay in Lady Dustin's story falls; Ned gets married but somehow it takes him 6 months to ride North and collect her husband to go to war even though six months still seems too long.)

 

Then the Battle of the Bells happens and Ned is there with his forces. Robb is born after this battle but before the battle of the Trident. So nearly over nine months go by with only one real fight in an epic civil war. Where are the rebels hiding? Then you have the Battle of the Trident and the Sack of Kings Landing happening very close together. Ned's at both of those and then Ned has to ride to Storm's End to lift the siege and then go to the Tower of Joy and then go to the Danyes to return the sword and then ride home with baby Jon who is younger than Robb but not by much.

 

The entire timeline is so messy that I can't take Lady Dustin's timeline oddness as a bad sign. I think Martin just got into a mini-knot making all the weddings/births/battles/travel time line up and figured since its just backstory it didn't matter enough to fix it.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I actually didn't have any particular problem with how Asha liked to get her freak on. They were both clearly in on the whole thing . I just wouldn't even come close to terming that romantic. It wasn't until the darn thing was half way over that I was even sure Asha wanted that. At first it read like a rape to the midway point and I was confused as hell, because I was thinking "what the hell? Asha would literally kill him, he would actually be joining the choir invisible. Fjord pining, ho!"

But if that's their gig? Go for it. It's just not the stuff of romance when she's cataloging her wounded bits afterward.

I think honeypot traps have been the stuff of spy novels for a while, and I agree, Talisa was a very unbelievable character. Someone pointed out that freaking Brienne wasn't safe by herself in that world. Talisa only really made sense to me when I thought she was a nun of some sort.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, Asha's latest chapter is behind me. I do actually enjoy Asha and got a good laugh out of her thinking about throttling Stannis with her chains. The guy does inspire that response quite easily.

I also enjoyed Big Bucket's speech about it being better to go out fighting, as well as the men of the North being determined to get Arya (Jeyne) away from Ramsay because THAT IS HOW THAT WOULD WORK,SHOW , Jebus.

However, it seems so hopeless, and Stannis is so freakishly almost possessed, I am afraid they will burn Asha. Not only would that suck on the "hey, no burning people alive, you farging iceholes!!" Level, but she's also the only bearable iron islander, so double to the no power on that one!

Also how tedious it is to read "men frozen, horses perished, they were eaten...the horses , that is, at least so far!" Gives dreary promise of what the next two books will contain. Martin will cause the Arctic Thesaurus to drop fucking dead as a matter of necessity. Oh goody.

Then also, because of Theon's pov chapter, I already knew they make it to the village and camp out there, so it was a bit excessive as a stage setting chapter for the battle.

Edited January 18, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Trisan]

Oh, there is more than meet the eyes about what the heck is happening in that blizzard ! ^^

[WindyNights]

Regardless this was a great line:

"A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire," Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, "The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R'hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever."

"Half my army is made up of unbelievers," Stannis had replied. "I will have no burnings. Pray harder."

[mac123x]

Right away Jon Arryn revolts and calls his banners and Robert goes to Storm's End to call his banners. There are a couple of battles right away and Storm's End is sieged for nearly a year. Meanwhile, Ned marries Catelyn and Jon marries Lysa. Ned has to then go North, call his banners and ride back south to join the rebellion. (I assume that's where the delay in

 

I think Ned went north and called his banners before he married Cat.  The Lord of Sisterton told Davos that he helped ship Ned north because at the time he was headed there, Gulltown was still loyal to Aerys so Ned couldn't get a ship there.  Gulltown was the first battle.  

 

Ned married Cat after he headed south with his army in order to secure the Riverlands alliance.  He knocked her up then headed south to Stoney Sept to relieve Robert at the Battle of the Bells.

 

It’s a good argument against Ashara Dayne being Jon’s mother, since when would they have had time to conceive, unless Ned took a short vacation between Stoney Sept and the Trident.

Edited January 18, 2016 by mac123x

[Terra Nova]

Spoiler for the rest of aDwD 

 

 

... Aerys the Misguided? Maybe in the end we'll know that his madness was caused by Varys slipping quicksilver into the king's mulled wine when nobody was watching XD No, joking aside, Varys may have his own agenda, but at this moment in time it relies for Aerys to keep the power. After all, it's Varys and Jaime who try to convince Aerys not to open the gates when Tywin arrives at King's Landing. And if he wants to keep his position, not to mention his head, Varys HAS to provide reliable intelligence from time to time; so I don't see how it's so certain that Varys just lied to the king. And AWoIaF states that Whent didn't have money enough to pay for such a tournament (while the Whent in the KG could have provided a nice link for Rhaegar to finance the thing).

 

As for the timeline: it is also possible that Lady Dustin's husband went South after Ned's departure: the Rebellion lasted more than a year, anyway, and we saw how Robb in his haste to march South rallied less than half of the total Northern forces. Maybe later asked for reinforcements via raven at a later stage - though I don't think there's any textual evidence for that.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Terra Nova

[vibeology]

I think Ned went north and called his banners before he married Cat.  The Lord of Sisterton told Davos that he helped ship Ned north because at the time he was headed there, Gulltown was still loyal to Aerys so Ned couldn't get a ship there.  Gulltown was the first battle.  

 

Ned married Cat after he headed south with his army in order to secure the Riverlands alliance.  He knocked her up then headed south to Stoney Sept to relieve Robert at the Battle of the Bells.

 

It’s a good argument against Ashara Dayne being Jon’s mother, since when would they have had time to conceive, unless Ned took a short vacation between Stoney Sept and the Trident.

 

And it could be that's the timeline going North and back, but then what is everyone doing between the wedding and the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident? The timeline is messed up is my point. Because if Ned goes North first, then marries Cat, we've got 9 months before Robb can be born and Robb was born while Cat was still at Riverrun waiting out the war. What was everyone doing all that time? How in a kingdom wide civil war was there only one battle in nine months? Where was everyone holed up?

 

All of that was to say that I don't personally jump to Lady Dustin is lying because her husband didn't go off to battle for six months. Robert's Rebellion is confusing and that could be perfectly true (or not) and I cannot know because none of it makes any sense to me.

[Alayne Stone]

Yeah, the Rebellion timeline is confusing to me as well. TWOIAF makes the timeline involving Lyanna's kidnapping a little confusing as well because (small spoiler for TWOIAF)

she was "kidnapped" supposedly in the Riverlands. Not outside of Winterfell. Which I suppose makes sense because people would probably notice a prince of the crown riding up the Neck on his own. But we're given no idea of how long exactly after Harenhaal this event took place. Or if Lyanna stayed behind after the tourney. Or how long she's been there. Or why she was there.

 

I suspect much of it will be revealed in the next book.

 

That very sarcastic and pragmatic "Pray harder" line is one of two lines that just made me completely rage over (season 5 spoiler)

Shireen's burning.

 

I like Asha a lot as well. She is by and far the most tolerable Iron Born character from the series. I'd say I was bummed she was shafted from the show, but seeing as how some of the characters turned out in the end I'd say we were the better off for it.

[Lady S.]

Re: Lady Dustin and Brandon Stark: all I have to say is if I never again read her sentence about seeing her maiden's blood on Brandon's cock, it will be too soon.

His line about using a sword to shave a woman's pubic hair was even lovelier. Lady Dustin is a definite weirdo but making up details like that goes past the level of eccentricity into mental illness imo. I never doubted she was deflowered by Brandon (Martin has said that it was revealed in Dance that Brandon was obviously no virgin.), but I do doubt her loyalty to Roose if she's still sore about Domeric's death and is hanging out with a Stark lover/Bolton captive, and the motive for her grudge against Ned feels pretty thin and wanting his bones does sound more like safekeeping than revenge. I also doubt that Brandon never wanted to marry Catelyn because that sounds like the standard line every man in a relationship uses with his side action whether he means it or not, but it is interesting to think the probably didn't love Catelyn and that had they gotten married, she'd find out if she really could overlook a dozen bastards so long as they were out of sight.

[dragonbone]

Lady Dustin's speech also makes you wonder what the Maesters are really up to.  To what degree are Maesters players in the game? 

Dustin fingers Maester Walys (from the Hightower family) as the source of a Baratheon, Arryn, Tully, Stark plot.

We've heard before from Marwyn that the Maesters are attempting to create a world with magic or Dragons and that they were responsible for killing the last ones.  Sounds like whatever they were doing worked right up to the point where Danny did the unexpected.

 

I suspect the info from Marwyn is even more misleading that the usual unreliable narrator.  But this does mean we've heard in two POV's that the Maesters are up to something.  I don't think there is enough info yet to figure out what they are trying to do.. but it's kinda doubtful they really just serve neutrally.

 

 

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so I finished Dany's chapter where she meets Quentyn, marries Hizdhar and pines like Sansa for freaking Daario.

Vaguely amusing start to that chapter, since I thought there was some terrible daylight-only peril she was dreading. Instead she was just mooning over a dude.

So Aerys copped a feel at Tywin's wedding feast and Tywin held onto the grudge like it was money. Okay, so the show having Pycelle drone on about Aerys being a good man until he went mad is only a show thing. Instead he was a lifelong creep.

Quentyn's timing was fairly horrible, there was no way for Dany to back out by the time he got to her. It would have been such a huge insult there would have been fighting in the streets. So whereas I like Quentin's character and the characters with him, Dany didn't have any choice. I was surprised that Dany ended up married to Hizzy, so I didn't see that one coming.

Other than that that felt like another place holding, story building chapter. Too bad the dysentery spread but that was fairly predictable.

[Delta1212]

Of course, in that same speech, Pycelle talks about what a great king Joffrey is going to be, so I'm not sure how seriously we're supposed to take his praise of Aerys even on the show.

Plus, then he immediately does that squat thing implying he's as duplicitous as everyone else in King's Landing and even he probably doesn't believe any of the stuff he just said.

Edit: Oh, and Aerys copping a feel is some of the bigger fodder for the Tyrion Targaryen theory (which I don't particularly like and hope doesn't pan out).

Edited January 19, 2016 by Delta1212

[bobbybuilderton]

Funny that you mention quentyns timing and placeholder chapters. Apparently a big part of why this book took so long was grrm trying to manage what characters were where at what time. Now, what the hold up is with the next one, who knows

[ambi76]

My armchair diagnosis of early Aerys II is a severe case of (A)DHS. Mostly from what we learn in TWOIAF of his life before going erm full-Aerys.

At places he also sounded like nutty Ludwig II of Bavaria there with his fantasy castles, which this Bavarian girl finds hilarious.

 

We have very different views on Brandon Stark, shimpy. He always sounded like a total und unabashed asshole to me (I don't think being Ned's brother or a Stark can prevent you from that), so Lady Dustin's "waxing poetics" about him sounds about right to me (if of course a bit overdone).

Edited January 19, 2016 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

In fairness, my view of Brandon was brought to me by the show, so I was told he was a great guy long before I found out he was not. in the infamous sexposition Littlefinger specifically says he's square jawed and a great guy , noble true, blah blah, only his brother turned out to be even better. So that was an opinion that was handed to me, not developed from the books.

It did start to seem a little suspect when I heard about what a terrible temper he had. However, he also went to Kings Landing to save his family, which is laudable, and the manner in which he died also suggested he was very honorable. If the only experience you had with him was in the books, I can see believing that he was less than glorious right off the bat, but for me he was contending with the contrasting view from the show.

Merciful Zeus, there's a "Tyrion was a Targ " theory? I am glad no one told me that prior to this chapter, or else it would not have made any sense at all. It still doesn't make a lot of sense. Tyrion's entire arc only makes sense if he does have legitimate daddy issues.

Geez, additionally I am looking forward to getting home to a real keyboard I don't know how anyone participates in discussions on this forum on iPad. For the life of me I can't get it to "when I want to but randomly I just got "tags. Also he keeps putting quotation marks instead of the word ". Fuck fuck fuck

Edited January 19, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

Actually shimpy, it was Rickard who went to King's Landing to save Brandon. Although Brandon did indeed attempt to save his father from burning, even if it cost him his life. Brandon went to King's Landing after Lyanna was kidnapped and, according to Jaime at least, yelled for Rhaegar to 'come out and die.' This is taken by some to be evidence that Brandon, at least, knew that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped, with the logic being that if Brandon thought she was kidnapped he would have shouted 'where is my sister?' or some such.

 

Interestingly, if Brandon did indeed demand Rhaegar to 'come out and die' (and I have no real reason to disbelieve Jaime on this) Aerys may well have been within his rights to execute him, even if it was politically unwise.