Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Lady S.]

Is there any reason that you think Ellia died before the children?  I guess I always assumed that she was with them and that he killed her children and then ....etc.  See the grimmest take yet on Inigo Montoya's repetitive monologue.  

 

I assumed that because it would actually be more torturous to her to kill her children first.

No reason at all. Assuming Gregor didn't lie in his confession to Oberyn, we know the exact order of events there. “I killed her screaming whelp.” ... “Then I raped her.” ... “Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this.” (details of Oberyn's slaughter redacted) It's such a iconic scene that I have to assume the Mountain's confession was true and he wasn't just another pawn of Varys. Pretty sure there were other references to Elia being raped with Aegon's blood literally on Gregor's hands.

[Terra Nova]

Yes, Tyrion IX from A Storm of Swords (Tyrion to Oberyn):

 

It was Ser Gregor Clegane who smashed Prince Aegon's head against a wall and raped your sister Elia with his blood and brains still on his hands.

 

So it seems to be pretty common knowledge, at least in the Lannister household. Tyrion seems to consider it the truth, at least.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

No reason at all. Assuming Gregor didn't lie in his confession to Oberyn, we know the exact order of events there. “I killed her screaming whelp.” ... “Then I raped her.” ... “Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this.” (details of Oberyn's slaughter redacted) It's such a iconic scene that I have to assume the Mountain's confession was true and he wasn't just another pawn of Varys. Pretty sure there were other references to Elia being raped with Aegon's blood literally on Gregor's hands.

Weirdly enough, Gregor is correcting Oberyn on the order of events.

[nksarmi]

I think riping the screaming baby from his mother's breast, bashing his head in and raping her with the babys blood still on his hands just sounds so over the top that it seems like the stuff that men allow to be spread so it makes them a legend.

When in reality, mom would have rushed out to confront the attackers while trying to hid or put guards to protect her children. It seems far more likely to me they would have secured her first and then the children. So there may have been time.

Of course when you consider that Rhargar was dead, other targs had been sent away, and elia was being held to keep dorne loyal ......maybe varys could have predicted the need for a baby swap. And again maybe he would have swapped the daughter too but couldn't find a look a like.

[Alayne Stone]

I think the Mountain actually says something along the lines of "First I killed her welp, then I raped her with his blood still on my hands, then I bashed her skull in like this" ... but he could have just been saying that upon being provoked. Who knows.

 

ETA: I see others ninja'd me already on the above. ;)

 

I'm of the "Griff is a Blackfyre" persuasion myself, but I don't think he thinks himself as anything other than legitimate. I also would not rule out him being important to the narrative, just because the show has cut him. Time and time again Martin has said there are ripple effects of the show omitting certain things that are going to have a butterfly effect. I don't consider Lady Stoneheart any less important either and there has so far been no sign of her in the show.

 

Shimpy, you are not the only one who believes Varys isn't all that he seems. That there is something more to him. There's quite a bit of speculation as to who he might actually be as well. I don't think you need any more information to potentially figure it out and it's mostly just speculation at this point, but I'll put a spoiler tag up just in case.

Some people believe he is actually a Blackfyre and Sera's sister and that is the reason he was cut, so he could not produce any heirs.

 

Also, I love Wylla Manderly. And I love her speech. Especially in a hall full of so many people paying lip service to the Freys, it was nice to have someone remind us of just how loyal to the Starks the Northern houses were before it all went to hell.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[Andeleisha]

 

 

Also, I love Wylla Manderly. And I love her speech. Especially in a hall full of so many people paying lip service to the Freys, it was nice to have someone remind us of just how loyal to the Starks the Northern houses were before it all went to hell.

 

Indeed. At least someone was a friend to Davos in that hall. RIP Onion Knight.  

[bobbybuilderton]

Maaaan i remember reading that. one of those moments where you are feelin good only to be brought low. why is GRRM so good at that?!

[Alayne Stone]

Yes, to go from feeling an immense amount of pride one moment ... and then to be like "what?! nooooooo!" the next. :(

[John Potts]

I do think that Aegon is fake (mostly for the meta reasons that others have mentioned) but it's not impossible that he really COULD be the smuggled away Prince that Varys says: assuming that Varys didn't order the city gates opened* to let Tywin's turncoat army in, he might have assumed that the city would hold out for a while (he knows about the tunnels under the city, so even under siege, he had options). But once Tywin's army revealed its true colours he needed to do something RIGHT NOW and had to improvise. While I'm not convinced that's what happened, it's certainly possible.

 

Also, I'm not convinced that Jorah "proved" that the Dothraki were never a threat. Yes, a Dothraki warrior might not be able to defeat a knight one on one but most of the army wouldn't BE armoured knights, but (mostly) unarmoured peasants who could be cut down. A small core of knights might be ale to fight their way out, but it would be a fraught prospect in the chaos of a feeing army, particularly if they lost their horses. As Show!Robert pointed out, the Westerosi would probably have to retreat to their castles while the Dothraki raped & plundered the land around them. Of course, that depended on them getting across the sea first.

 

Delta1212 Also, I've got a theory

 

Am I the only one that can't read that without thinking "Bunnies aren't the kindly things that everyone supposes! They've got those fluffy tails and twichy little noses!"

 

* Maybe this was Pycelle's doing? He was a holdover of the old regime, IIRC

Edited January 7, 2016 by John Potts

[Delta1212]

No, sorry, when I see that phrase my next thought is always "that it's a demon, a dancing demon. No something isn't right there."

Edited January 7, 2016 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

I've got theory! It must be witches!!  Some evil witches! Which is ridiculous 'cause witches they were persecuted. Wicca's good and love the earth and women power ...and I'll be over here.

 

The problem here also becomes if they managed to swap in baby imposter, in the anticipation that "Holy shit, we have preserve the royal line and we've just gotten word that Rhaegar is dead, dead, deadinski!" is at that point, there not much better than The Mountain because it's somebody's baby they've just thrown to the ....Mean Hills. 

 

But mostly it really is that Martin very clearly likes to borrow from history and the Imposter!Heir! is something from the time period of which he is fond.  

 

So that's how my math on that works:  Oh wow....oh wait.  Okay.  

 

But time will tell on that and I'm not going to believe that Davos is really dead until I read a POV chapter from Davos that includes his view of the axe, or someone else have to two step over his corpse.  That may be coming -- because you all are hinting that it is -- but until such time as I it does?  Offscreen, hinted at death and whenever Martin doesn't actually have the character push up daises (and even sometimes when he does, Lady Stoneheart) , chances are good that it doesn't actually happen.  

 

Plus, he loves a good fakeout and revealing that "Oh Davos Seaworth is totally dead!" in the last book makes me doubt that ...Davos Seaworth is dead.   I may have to weep over a lost Onion Knight, but we will see.   Unless Manderly is bewitched, he does hate the Freys and doesn't buy the bullshit Robb story...and he's hiding something about that.  

 

But we will see. 

 

I had already discussed the "Varys is a Blackfyre" theory with Mya, Astone and it's an interesting one.  I'm still slightly more caught by that weird detail back in the first book about dark stubble on Varys jaw, but I'm assuming someone would actually know for sure whether or not Varys is really a Eunuch.  As for the concept that there will be more than 7 books? All I have to say to that is "Oy with the poodles." 

[Autarch]

Weirdly enough, Gregor is correcting Oberyn on the order of events.

Not weird really. It's done deliberately on Martin's part to make Gregor's outburst a true confession and not just a parroting of Oberyn's words. It also shows Gregor maybe isn't as dim as he seemed at the start of the fight.

It's a small detail that I wish the show would've included. Then again, I don't think the show bothered to include any of the details besides saying they were murdered.

[mac123x]

I had already discussed the "Varys is a Blackfyre" theory with Mya, Astone and it's an interesting one.  I'm still slightly more caught by that weird detail back in the first book about dark stubble on Varys jaw, but I'm assuming someone would actually know for sure whether or not Varys is really a Eunuch.

 

Since he's the master of disguise (except Shae can see right though it) I just assumed his stubble was makeup, though it could be evidence that he wasn't castrated.  Show!Varys is a confirmed eunuch, since Ros felt him up.  "Nothing dangerous down there."

 

 

Not weird really. It's done deliberately on Martin's part to make Gregor's outburst a true confession and not just a parroting of Oberyn's words. It also shows Gregor maybe isn't as dim as he seemed at the start of the fight.

It's a small detail that I wish the show would've included. Then again, I don't think the show bothered to include any of the details besides saying they were murdered.

 

I thought that was in the show, including Gregor correcting the order of events.  I'd rewatch to confirm but I get the willies watching Oberyn's head asplode.

[stillshimpy]

Show!Varys is a confirmed eunuch, since Ros felt him up.  "Nothing dangerous down there."

 

That's also one of the things we talked about, as well as the show going all in by giving him a Wizard in a Box.  Oh wait, it was a Sorcerer, wasn't it?  Either way?  One screwed dude in that box. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by stillshimpy

[jellyroll2]

It's funny because as I was reading it never occurred to me to wonder whether (f)Aegon was real or not. I was mostly focused on his impact of the story and what it meant for all the other plotlines. It wasn't until afterwards that I stopped to think, wait a tick... There are some things we can't touch on yet concerning whether he's real/not real because shimpy is still reading and hasn't gotten to those points yet. Not for shimpy 

The epilogue and Varys' talk with Kevan. The whole "why would Varys lie to a dying man", etc points

But I agree that there was no way to have that level of foresight to think of a baby switch beforehand. Afterwards once knowing the infant's face was destroyed beyond recognition, it's probably easy to find another boy around the same age and raise him to be Aegon.

 

I am of the mind that he's a fake but the only ones who know he's a fake are Illyrio and Varys. I think even he believes he's the real deal. I also think we the audience will never know for sure if he was real or not. I do think he'll end up on the IT, bringing peace to the realm, just in time for his pissed off aunt with the three large fire breathing lizards to come and start another civil war as she'll be convinced he's a fake. Hence, Dance of the Dragons v. 2.0.

[Constantinople]

Weirdly enough, Gregor is correcting Oberyn on the order of events.

 

 

Not weird really. It's done deliberately on Martin's part to make Gregor's outburst a true confession and not just a parroting of Oberyn's words. It also shows Gregor maybe isn't as dim as he seemed at the start of the fight.

It's a small detail that I wish the show would've included. Then again, I don't think the show bothered to include any of the details besides saying they were murdered.

It was in the show

Oberyn:

Who gave you the order!

Say her name!

You raped her! You murdered her! You killed her children.

Say it. Say her name. Say it!

The Mountain knocks Oberyn to the ground and smashes Oberyn's teeth in

The Mountain:

Elia Martell.

I killed her children. Then I raped her. Then I smashed her head in like this!

(the Mountain then crushes Oberyn's skull)

Ellaria Sand screaming

Tywin:

The gods have made their will known.

Tyrion Lannister, in the name of King Tommen of the House Baratheon,First of His Name, you are hereby sentenced to death.

[Dev F]

It was in the show

 

Yeah, it just didn't really play, because Gregor #3 isn't much of an actor and didn't seem to understand what the line was meant to convey.

 

It's one of my minor but persistent regrets about the series that Conan Stevens didn't stay on in the role after season 1. He really seemed to understand that the core of the character is not "This is a big dumb brute" but "This is a fucking dangerous man."

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, they had a helluva time with casting The Mountain.  I don't know what happened with any of them, but the first guy was terrifying and the second guy was not bad, but he was so markedly different from the first actor, that it was distracting every time he was on, since the first actor had been so good in the role.  So everything Mountain II was on it became about cataloguing all the ways in which he wasn't quite right, rather than paying next to any attention to his performance, and that's actually a commentary on his performance within the role.  He just didn't bring enough to it to have it stand out in anyway.

 

Mountain III (Mountainstein) was simply gigantic and when you're three actors deep into one part, it easily becomes a case of "Am I watching a really gory soap opera, or what??"   and again, the choices he made in the role just never really managed to move beyond that. 

[Delta1212]

The first Mountain had some issues with the production. It's still not clear exactly what happened, but it seems like he may have A) been difficult to work with (mostly speculation on my part based on his interactions with fans; which were very genuine and he was great about talking to people online on fan sites and things, but well, he was talking to people on fan sites and things) and B) I think he jumped the gun careerwise. After season 1, he got several offers including a small role on Spartacus and some goblin thing in The Hobbit. The Hobbit shooting schedule, if I remember correctly, conflicted with Game of Thrones and he went with the big budget feature film part. He also seemed to be upset about some of his stuff getting cut in the first season.

Then, of course, that didn't go anywhere, and he talked (again, online) about wanting to go back to Game of Thrones. The producers never really talked about what happened exactly, but based on the stuff above, I get the feeling they were just a bit fed up with him. (Which is too bad because he was a perfect fit for the part and didn't seem like a bad guy, just maybe not someone with amazing judgement).

The second guy is the same person who played the White Walker in the opening scene of the series and who played Wun Wun the giant on the show. He was basically a really tall stunt guy they had hanging around so they used him as a temporary replacement for the Mountain in season 2. He was also Madame Maxim's body double in the Harry Potter movies, interestingly.

The last Mountain was Hafthor Bjornsson, who placed in the top three of the World's Strongest Man competition a few years in a row. I think somebody did some math and figured out that with the amount of weight he could lift, it might actually be possible that he could apply enough pressure to crush a skull, or at least was in the right ballpark for it.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Delta1212

[polyhymnia]

Oh god, that's one that's like nails on a chalk board to me.  It's a contender for worst idiom, right up there with "words are wind" and "much and more". 

 

I thought it was just Asha, saying "my nuncle" instead of "mine uncle".  When it started cropping up in other characters I rolled mine eyes.  My neyes. 

 

This was several hundred pages back but made me laugh so hard that I had to quote it.  My neyes indeed.

The (F)Aegon story does seem sort of pulled out of thin air to me sometimes.  It will be interesting (if the novels ever get finished) to see how it all develops and if it actually makes any sense in the end.

 

I haven't read The Accursed Kings and may go ahead and do this instead of a re-re-read of ASOIAF as apparently I have some time to kill before the next one comes out, anyway.

[WindyNights]

This was several hundred pages back but made me laugh so hard that I had to quote it. My neyes indeed.

The (F)Aegon story does seem sort of pulled out of thin air to me sometimes. It will be interesting (if the novels ever get finished) to see how it all develops and if it actually makes any sense in the end.

I haven't read The Accursed Kings and may go ahead and do this instead of a re-re-read of ASOIAF as apparently I have some time to kill before the next one comes out, anyway.

It's not. GRRM's been foreshadowing and itching to do this since the first book.

In interviews during the time period when the first books had comw out he's been asked if Aegon is really dead and he's replied with Rhaenys is definitely dead or keep reading.

Edited January 7, 2016 by WindyNights

[Haleth]

Oh god, that's one that's like nails on a chalk board to me. It's a contender for worst idiom, right up there with "words are wind" and "much and more".

I'm reading a bit ahead of Shimpy and just today I came across 2 "much and more"s and 4 "he was not wrong"s. No "words are wind"s today though.

[WSmith84]

On the whole Dothraki plan: just getting them across the Narrow Sea would have been a nightmare, logistically speaking. Even if it was just 10000 men, they'd all be cavalry, needing at least 2 horses each (presumably). Getting the ships necessary to do that sounds monumental. And what happens if Westeros attacks them at sea? I can't see a bunch of people terrified of water and with no naval combat experience doing much good against Westerosi navies.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so I've read the Reek chapter and I'm afraid I didn't like it any more than the last one.  Don't get me wrong, it's horrifying.  It's just that I don't believe any of it on an emotional level.  It just goes too far.  Jump off the building.  Grab the sword and fall on it.  Shit, lack the guts?  Tell one of the Cod guys to off you.  He is pathetic as can be, but there's occasionally the "wow, that's a bridge too far, you've broken my ability suspend disbelief on this one" and I just don't think it serves the story.  

 

Maybe my feelings will change on that.  I don't know, but for right now I was just grateful that that was a shorter chapter.  However, you guys did say that first two chapters with Reek were going to be unenjoyable and that after that, it becomes worthwhile, so I'm trying to withhold judgement on it.  

 

Then I read Jon's next chapter and enjoyed that a lot more. I liked that the Wildlings were just making Weirwoods-that-weren't.  I like that Martin openly addressed one of his favorite themes: the isn't the name that matters, it's the man.  I like that the dominoes are being set up clearly and in a manner that makes sense.  I like that the things that make Jon a fit leader are actually the things that are causing problems: he's a good strategist but he's still very young.  It's a neat case of a characters greatest strength also being their greatest weakness.  He's honorable and sees what needs to be done clearly...but he's honorable and so he is less likely to understand those who aren't and how what needs to be done is a lot of people's guiding star.  So taking note of the Thenns not joining at all and thinking that's the current chief problem.  

 

I liked his thought process.  I liked the setup, including the mentioning of turning down the tail, which I'm sure will bode ill eventually. 

[Lady S.]

On the whole Dothraki plan: just getting them across the Narrow Sea would have been a nightmare, logistically speaking. Even if it was just 10000 men, they'd all be cavalry, needing at least 2 horses each (presumably). Getting the ships necessary to do that sounds monumental. And what happens if Westeros attacks them at sea? I can't see a bunch of people terrified of water and with no naval combat experience doing much good against Westerosi navies.

Yes, I think the naval disadvantage was a big thing Robert was ignoring. Stannis took out the Iron Fleet easily enough, so I wouldn't think merchant ships where the warriors are huddled belowdeck scared with their horses would be too much of a threat. And the Dothraki are not a conquering people, they just rape and pillage and keep on roaming, without any concept of strategy. Drogo's idea of taking the Iron Throne was probably literally taking it as a prize back to Vaes Dothrak, it's kind of hard to hold territory when you don't actually understand the appeal of holding territory.

[stillshimpy]

Also, it's no small thing to try and carry horses across a body of water, particularly ones complete unaccustomed to the water also.  One of the most upsetting books I read as a teenager had to do with a woman veterinary, who became a large animal/equine veterinary and a chapter detailing having to put down one her jumpers on a flight to Germany for a show because the horse started to panic and even the tranquilizers couldn't stop him.  They had to put down mid-flight, or risk him damaging the actual aircraft, because when a horse completely loses its shit, vessels suffer.  

 

But again, it doesn't seem like that was ever really the plan because Drogo didn't know about it.  This whole "sold her to a Dothraki horselord to buy an army" thing (which I just encountered in Tyrion's most recent chapter again) is difficult to take too seriously for a variety of reasons, but not the least of which is that when Dany originally tried to sell Drogo on the idea, he said no.  

 

Okay, so I've also just read Tyrion-gets-captured-byJorah.  Oh joy.  Drinking Tyrion is so very tedious and at first, whereas I figured out "Oh so this will be where they all part company, since Fake-Aegon will now insist upon doing what Tyrion planted in his brain and clearly Tryion's off to get captured by Jorah now" because as soon as they started heading to a brothel, that became clear.  season five

at first I thought it was so much better than the set up in the series, but then it became actually worse, with Tyrion screwing a miserable slave because she had no choice in the matter (which is called rape, because unlike prostitutes who at least get a cut of the sale, she's apparently just owned by the brothel...ugh) .  

 

So Tyrion's behaved abominably and I've heard the story that at least F-Aegon was told.  All my objections still stand, although I did wince that this kid tells this story, and never gives a thought to the murdered baby, which ...yeah, he's a fake, but he's also got Targaryen blood, it would seem.  Maybe when he gets older he'd think of the "Why didn't my mother just send me and my sister away, or go with us?"  

 

And it read to me like Tyrion was aware that he was a fake, with the observation that he might be a Targaryen after all, which would suggest that up until that moment Tyrion had assumed he wasn't.  I am officially with the theorists who believe that kid is of Blackfyre extraction.  

 

As gross as Tyrion's behavior was in the last part of that chapter, I do think it makes some sense that he is that destroyed by it all.  It makes more sense in the books than it did in the series.   The amount of self-loathing Tyrion would feel after Jaime's revelation about Tysha would be enormous and crushing.   Someone actually loved him and because of his own insecurities and his trust in the only person he believed loved him, Tyrion stood by as she was gang raped and then raped her too.  It would be sanity breaking stuff. 

 

I did end up wondering though:  Would Big Griff (Jon Connington <---- heh, kind of cute, like naming a blacksmith Smith....)  really not pursue Tyrion?  He knows the secret of whoever (f)Ageon is...and more to the point from big Griff's POV....he now knows the alleged story behind it too.   So that gave me at least a little bit of pause, because it made me wonder if perhaps the Shy Maiden crew would track Tyrion down yet.  Season five

and that's when I also realized that Jorah's story in the series might not play out even remotely in the same manner in the books...because half of Tyrion's plot with Jorah has already happened in the book, on the Shy Maiden.

Another one to wait and see on, I suppose. 

[stillshimpy]

Oh also, stray observation that actually kind of startled me, and I don't think I need to tag this:  Kindles display the percentage of a book one has read.  It's never entirely accurate because it counts a lot of excess pages at the end, so most books tend to finish up in the 90s.  I think Feast was at 94% when ...there was the end. 

 

Anyway, according to my e-reader. I'm 26% of the way through this book.  Then I compared how much of the stuff from the series I've seen to that and realized that there's no way that even comes close to filling up that much space.  So I'm hoping there will be a lot of material I've never seen before in anyway, because that's the most fun for me. 

[dragonbone]

meta-discussion: putting under spoiler because it's speculation informed by future chapters.

 

I know I asked about Varys upthread, but some of this Blackfyre speculation is too early. I'm not sure stillshimpy would have come to this conclusion this early in the book, and later on in the book there are more clues pointing to this.  

Edited January 8, 2016 by dragonbone

[WindyNights]

Yeah Tyrion is an awful person. GRRM has even called him a villain.

And I think he has a parallel arc to Jaime's. Jaime is turning into a better person. Tyrion is turning into a worse person.

Tyrion ended ASOS deciding he's Tywin writ small. Jaime left ASOS trying to create a new future for himself that differs from the awful path he's been on.

[Lady S.]

Okay, so I've read the Reek chapter and I'm afraid I didn't like it any more than the last one.  Don't get me wrong, it's horrifying.  It's just that I don't believe any of it on an emotional level.  It just goes too far.  Jump off the building.  Grab the sword and fall on it.  Shit, lack the guts?  Tell one of the Cod guys to off you.  He is pathetic as can be, but there's occasionally the "wow, that's a bridge too far, you've broken my ability suspend disbelief on this one" and I just don't think it serves the story.

I feel you, but I don't think it's a matter of guts keeping Theon from killing himself, it's that enough of him still remains to not want to give up and die as Reek. I think killing himself to get away from Ramsay would feel like Ramsay killing him more than escaping Ramsay. Some part of him wants to survive not because he has a reason to live or even really wants to but because his life is one of the very few things Ramsay hasn't taken from him yet. But if he could die on his terms, or at least die as Theon, then he could find peace in death. I assume Theon will die at some point, because I can't imagine he'd really be able to start a new and better life, broken man that he is. Any thoughts on Roose's re-appearance at the end of that chapter, and the first look at him and Ramsay together?

[Haleth]

Anyway, according to my e-reader. I'm 26% of the way through this book.  Then I compared how much of the stuff from the series I've seen to that and realized that there's no way that even comes close to filling up that much space.  So I'm hoping there will be a lot of material I've never seen before in anyway, because that's the most fun for me.

 

Then prepare yourself for a good time!

[Terra Nova]

Yeah, what Tyrion did in his last chapter is one of his vilest acts, so of course in the series they had the slave pouting for not being paid enough attention by the customers and then offering free sex to the maimed dwarf, because he's just that awesome (and of course, he's so good he turns down the eager sex worker).

And poor show!Jorah and is manpain upon seeing a slave resembling Daenerys vs. book!Jorah diddling said slave in his lap.

[nksarmi]

I don't know if I can accept Tyrion as being a villain. Tywin and Cersei? Sure.  But Tyrion?  Even after his book five path, I'm not ready to call him that.  I had to google the reference GRRM made to him being a villain and it was before this book was likely even being dreamt of, so who knows what he meant by it or if Tyrion has been "gardened" onto a different path by now.

 

What I do consider is that Tyrion has been referred to as "Tywin's true son" and that he committed "kin slaying" which is supposed to be "oh so horrible" in this realm.  I'm sorry - I still have issues with this concept.  Caster's daughter/wives should have murdered his ass long ago and I wouldn't have thought one bad thing about them if they had.  But I digress.

 

Tyrion's book five story was hard for me because while it all makes perfect sense after the Tysha reveal - I still didn't enjoy it.  I've participated in conversations as to why the Tysha reveal was left out (I think we even had one here with Shimpy) but maybe it all comes down to the fact that D&D clearly want to keep Tyrion as a "white hat" where GRRM has muddied him up big time in the books.  While informing Tyrion of what happened gives him complete justification to murder his father - it also sends him quite believably on a path to self-loathing, depression, and self-medication that point to the idea that despite his fine mind - we might not see him do anything but "survive" from this point on.  And while I'm sure Peter D could have acted the heck out of Tyrion's book five material - I have to say that for me either GRRM is wasting one of his best characters by destroying him and perhaps making him a villain OR he is wasting a whole heck of a lot of time if the plans to raise him back up to hero status anyway. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by nksarmi

[mac123x]

So Tyrion's behaved abominably and I've heard the story that at least F-Aegon was told.  All my objections still stand, although I did wince that this kid tells this story, and never gives a thought to the murdered baby, which ...yeah, he's a fake, but he's also got Targaryen blood, it would seem.  Maybe when he gets older he'd think of the "Why didn't my mother just send me and my sister away, or go with us?"

 

It parallel's the situation during the lead up to the Battle of the Blackwater, when Cercei sent Tommen away disguised as a page.  The difference is that Aerys was intentionally keeping Elia and the kids close as hostages for Dorne's continued loyalty.  He might have noticed if Elia disappeared or no longer had the kids with her. 

 

The timing of the alleged baby swap isn't spelled out, but I think it could have happened like this: 

1.  News of the events at the Trident reach King's Landing

2.  Varys devises the plan, finds the Pisswater Prince

3.  Varys goes to Elia.  "Rhaegar is dead, so Aegon is the heir to the throne.  The Rebels are headed this way and will probably take King's Landing.  Even if they don't, Aerys blames your uncle for the loss at the Trident and might take it out on your son because he's nutso.  If we swap him out with this look-alike baby, I can smuggle him to safety."  Elia agrees.

 

It's a little more plausible if Elia was complicit in the swap.  I still think it's a cover story made up after the fact to hide Young Griff's true lineage, but that's just my own speculation.

[stillshimpy]

Theon not wanting to die as Reek is a fair point, Lady S and it's another plot that I'll have to wait and see where he's going with it all.  At present it just still feels like it's overwrought.  There's a lack of subtlety to it all right now that is a little garish in the language usage -- in that chapter, it may improve -- but I'm just never a fan of dramatic excess to that extent.  Every now and then I bump into the fact that I'm only a half generation away from the British Isles on my mom's side, my brother having been born there, and it used to bug me about Edward James Olmos's performance in BSG too:  Tone it down, Cowboy, you don't need to beat me over the head.   The Scots are much less afflicted with excessive emotional restraint, but I do get uncomfortable with things that are a little over-indulgent in that manner.  I've stated it before, it's that "I'm dancing on your feelings with cement shoes," level of cranking up an aspect, "feel, you bastard, feel!" that just brings out that latent "Oh do stop carrying on so" in me.  

 

Again, I'm aware that the first two chapters are best approached as "Hey, you don't like this part?  Fine, but there's worth in the following story, so shut and eat your vegetables so you can get to the dessert course."  Only in completely unappetizing language, no doubt.  

 

The good parts are that it is impossible not to feel for this destroyed wreck of a person and the more subtle (and hopefully more important) parts of the story are there between the lurid cracks.  So that Theon remembering the last time he was at Moat Cailin with Robb is as important as anything else that happens.  Remember the banners and small things like what happened to his horse.  Or that a lot of what Theon did at Winterfell was actually also a desperate quest for approval from the people of Winterfell.  He really wanted to be respected in the same way Eddard Stark was and did his own clog-dancing-in-cement-shoes as he tried to accomplish it. 

 

Plus, one trend I've noticed and sometimes it closes out a chapter and sometimes it's somewhere within it, but Martin favors having a sentence or two of great import to character development.  Theon's reaction to poor Jeyne Poole isn't about Arya Stark, it's more about Ned Stark.  That intrigued me, so we will see how that goes. 

 

 

 

Any thoughts on Roose's re-appearance at the end of that chapter, and the first look at him and Ramsay together?

 

Oh I hate Ramsay so much, I'm sure I look like I'm sipping a vinegar cocktail every time he's gone into in any depth on the page.  There's a couple of differences though from show to page:  One is that show Ramsay is kind of stupid in a lot of ways, and book Ramsay isn't.  Ramsay has a lot in common with Theon of old in that chapter though:  He's on a quest for parental approval and good luck getting it from the Vampire that is Bolton. 

 

That he employs decoy implies that Bolton knows damned well that there's a chance even his own men might wish to kill him.  The whole dead, soulless eyes, devoid of any real color is a nice detail in the characterization. 

 

mac  on the subject of echoes and parallels within the story when it comes to "It's like when...." yeah....I know, but let's hope he's changing it up a bit because really the thing that it is so like that I really hope he's taking it in two separate directions is Jon sending Mance's son off with Gilly.  Martin has to be aware that there are a lot of questions about Jon's identity...he clearly is...he feeds that and again, if I had had any idea how hard he his that "Promise me...." me note in the first book during the series, I likely would have been speculating like mad with everyone else...

 

But the thing that really makes me hope it's [F]Aegon vs. Aegon is that not only it is almost a twin of Gilly/Val/Baby Swap (keep them from killing roylaty...I mean it's so close...and then there's Jon-might-be-Rhaegar's-son deall too) ....initially Martin apparently was writing this all as one giant book...so the paths would do well to diverge on that one. 

 

ETA:  Sorry! I'll try to clean up typos later, once again I've typed right up to my 92-pound-take-me-for-a-walk dog alarm.  

Edited January 8, 2016 by stillshimpy

[mac123x]

Oh I hate Ramsay so much, I'm sure I look like I'm sipping a vinegar cocktail every time he's gone into in any depth on the page.  There's a couple of differences though from show to page:  One is that show Ramsay is kind of stupid in a lot of ways, and book Ramsay isn't.  Ramsay has a lot in common with Theon of old in that chapter though:  He's on a quest for parental approval and good luck getting it from the Vampire that is Bolton.

 

That he employs decoy implies that Bolton knows damned well that there's a chance even his own men might wish to kill him.  The whole dead, soulless eyes, devoid of any real color is a nice detail in the characterization.

 

You might get a chuckle out of this -- there's a crackpot theory that Roose Bolton is an Other in disguise.  I have no idea how that works.  It's right up there with "so-and-so is actually a Time Lord" theories.

[Delta1212]

I think it's more on par with the "Varys is a merling" theory because at least it's something from that fictional universe even if it's ridiculous.

[bobbybuilderton]

I didn't particularly get the daddy issues vibe (at least not in the desperately wants his approval sense) from book Ramsay so when it was on the show I was confused for a bit. Was just talking to my friend about which type of villain we like more, the kylo rens of the world or the completely without mercy, cannot be bargained with, batshit insane villain.

What I thought of book Ramsay was that he was just brutal because he enjoyed it. That he hated being a snow because of how bastards are viewed in their world. I got the impression the story was trying to say he's crazy because he's crazy and has always been crazy. Not because he has some chip on his shoulder as he yearns for his father's acceptance or something. I find it less entertaining, personally.

[WindyNights]

I don't know if I can accept Tyrion as being a villain. Tywin and Cersei? Sure. But Tyrion? Even after his book five path, I'm not ready to call him that. I had to google the reference GRRM made to him being a villain and it was before this book was likely even being dreamt of, so who knows what he meant by it or if Tyrion has been "gardened" onto a different path by now.

What I do consider is that Tyrion has been referred to as "Tywin's true son" and that he committed "kin slaying" which is supposed to be "oh so horrible" in this realm. I'm sorry - I still have issues with this concept. Caster's daughter/wives should have murdered his ass long ago and I wouldn't have thought one bad thing about them if they had. But I digress.

Tyrion's book five story was hard for me because while it all makes perfect sense after the Tysha reveal - I still didn't enjoy it. I've participated in conversations as to why the Tysha reveal was left out (I think we even had one here with Shimpy) but maybe it all comes down to the fact that D&D clearly want to keep Tyrion as a "white hat" where GRRM has muddied him up big time in the books. While informing Tyrion of what happened gives him complete justification to murder his father - it also sends him quite believably on a path to self-loathing, depression, and self-medication that point to the idea that despite his fine mind - we might not see him do anything but "survive" from this point on. And while I'm sure Peter D could have acted the heck out of Tyrion's book five material - I have to say that for me either GRRM is wasting one of his best characters by destroying him and perhaps making him a villain OR he is wasting a whole heck of a lot of time if the plans to raise him back up to hero status anyway.

GRRM knew what direction Tyrion is heading towards so....I'm sure he can make a call on whether Tyrion is a villain or not.

He's more interesting as a villain. Anyways Tyrion was never actually that nice of a guy. He's always been a dickwad. Like he does some nice things but he's very indifferent to the suffering of the masses, he slaps Shae in the face for daring to mock him, he feeds a singer to Flea Bottom, he murders Shae despite the fact that she was probably coerced by Cersei and Tywin and he literally told her to give the illusion that she liked him so it's not his fault that he fell for it, he rapes a slave not once but twice (this is after he might contracted Greyscale but he doesn't care enough) etc.

He's also [

]hits Penny and is a hair breath from killing her in his new TWOW chapter[

]

Tyrion used to feel empathy for this whole class of disadvantaged people, but after Shae’s betrayal and the revelation that Tysha was not a whore, he no longer does. So he has really changed. His empathy is transferred entirely to the idealized figure of Tysha, who is now the one unique girl who loved him. Everyone else is now just a whore.

In this, he is resembling his father. Tywin loved Joanna, and never loved again after he died. Other women were just whores, to be mistreated however Tywin desired

Edited January 8, 2016 by WindyNights

[Delta1212]

I think the observation that Jaime and Tyrion are on opposing character trajectories is very astute, and I would even go further and say that their interaction at the end of Storm was representative of the characters passing each other going in opposite directions.

The things they said to each other didn't start either of them on the path they were on, but I think they were something of a point of no return for each. Jaime revealing the truth about Tysha utterly shatters Tyrion and sends him hurtling headlong down that rather dark path.

Meanwhile, Tyrion revealing what Cersei had been up to set Jaime up to finally sever his connection to the things that kept drawing him into the darkness, although it takes longer because I think Tyrion was in a more emotionally vulnerable state to begin with and was also more inclined to quickly accept the truth of what his brother was saying than Jaime was.

That's really a very significant conversation in the arc of both characters.

[WindyNights]

I think the observation that Jaime and Tyrion are on opposing character trajectories is very astute, and I would even go further and say that their interaction at the end of Storm was representative of the characters passing each other going in opposite directions.

The things they said to each other didn't start either of them on the path they were on, but I think they were something of a point of no return for each. Jaime revealing the truth about Tysha utterly shatters Tyrion and sends him hurtling headlong down that rather dark path.

Meanwhile, Tyrion revealing what Cersei had been up to set Jaime up to finally sever his connection to the things that kept drawing him into the darkness, although it takes longer because I think Tyrion was in a more emotionally vulnerable state to begin with and was also more inclined to quickly accept the truth of what his brother was saying than Jaime was.

That's really a very significant conversation in the arc of both characters.

There's also a bit of symbolism involved in their final farewell.

When they part, Jaime heads upstairs towards the light and Tyrion goes down deeper into the tunnels and darkness.

[Triskan]

Gilly/Val/Baby Swap

 

*mumbles, feeling like a complete (or sort of) Grammar Stannis, but unable to stop it* Dalla... not Val... Val's the younger sister who everyone at the Wall is pining for at that point (or at least they should be !) ^^

 

Sorry, sorry, couldnt help but correcting you, but... but it's Val... I mean... ahem... erm... she's... yeah, she deserves the correction ! x)

Edited January 8, 2016 by Triskan

[nksarmi]

WindyNights - I don't argue that Tyrion of the books is a "good" guy, but I would call him grey at worst even now.  That doesn't mean that GRRM can't turn him black, but I know for sure it won't be a journey that I have any interest in reading if he does.

 

I admit that the analysis that Tyrion and Jamie are heading in opposite directions and passed each other in the night when they told each other those critical bits of information is indeed interesting. 

 

However, if Tyrion is truly and villain AND he does end up as Dany's "right hand man" so to speak, I guess I have to reconsider some people's speculation that she too might end up being a villain in this story.  Her refusal to let go of the idea of the "Usurper's Dogs" has always made me wonder if she was capable of partnering with the Starks/Jon to save the realm.  And no matter how much I once liked Dany and no matter how much I've enjoyed Tyrion prior to book five - ultimately I want the Starks to win.  That is - of course - assuming that GRRM has any intent of letting "good guys" win.  He may not.  In which case, I will gladly join Team White Walkers.

Edited January 8, 2016 by nksarmi

[Andeleisha]

I think there is a difference between a character who is morally grey (which Tyrion definitely is) vs a villain. Tyrion does all kinds of awful things, but he isn't trying to execute an evil plan or trying to battle against the forces of good. (I'm struggling with how best to describe this without using the words "Tyrion isn't an evil overlord.") But most of all, in story, he's not supposed to be an antagonist the way someone like Roose Bolton is. If anything he's a protagonist, just a very problematic one! 

 

I'll save my favorite tinfoil theory on Roose Bolton for later this book :) 

[Terra Nova]

Well, as Martin loves to say, 'every villain is the protagonist of his own story'. Tyrion has already been an antagonist for several other protagonists, in the sense he's opposing them: the Starks and Stannis, just for example. But of course, none of us would doubt Cersei is evil, and yet not once in her POV we read her gloat about her mischief; if anything, she muses about real or perceived wrongs the rest of the world inflicted upon her.

Antagonist and protagonist are a thing, good and evil another, and they're pretty indipendent from one another.

 

Back to Tyrion, even not considering the double rape, in his little chat with Aegon he wanted the boy to Westeros, so to harm Cersei and the rest be damned, included his innocent nephew on the Throne: the prospect of him dying - which is a given, with a Targ invasion - doesn't even come up in his thoughts, whereas in his first chapter he felt ashamed when Illyrio pointed out that the Dornish plan could've meant Myrcella's death.

With each passing chapter, Tyrion is not getting any lighter shade of grey.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Terra Nova

[bobbybuilderton]

But he is the gift... I'm not quite sure I understand

[Terra Nova]

I'm not quite sure I understand

 

I see what you did there (͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[stillshimpy]

Good points, I particularly like the opposite-character-trajectory observation about Jaime and Tyrion.  Yeah, I didn't even bring up the "Holy shit, dude, if you have Grey Scale and you give it to that prostitute....you have the potential for wiping out the town!  Keep it in your pants!!" So it wasn't just callous towards the poor enslaved prostitute, it was callous on a level of....she's for sale...and you could be bringing Grey Scale to Volantis this way. 

 

It was more than a little startling. 

 

I didn't particularly get the daddy issues vibe (at least not in the desperately wants his approval sense) from book Ramsay so when it was on the show I was confused for a bit.

 

It's always going to be difficult to know if I would have picked up on something in the book when it's been depicted in the show, but it's there in the book characterization.  His entire "I create a Reek, who has to live to please me and win my approval and who I will use to do my bidding....and I will always have craving validation and approval, which I will only appear to give ....while delivering more cruelty."  He's done this before.  

 

I'm assuming he's recreating a truly monstrous echo of his relationship with his father and his own desire to have approval from a withholding father-figure.  

[jellyroll2]

*mumbles, feeling like a complete (or sort of)to Grammar Stannis, but unable to stop it* Dalla... not Val... Val's the younger sister who everyone at the Wall is pining for at that point (or at least they should be !) ^^

 

Sorry, sorry, couldnt help but correcting you, but... but it's Val... I mean... ahem... erm... she's... yeah, she deserves the correction ! x)

Still salty they cut her from the show.

 

Can't wait for shimpy to get to

Jon sending Val out all on her own on a half blind horse to find Tormund and she does it. She's even back when she promised him she would be. She's my she-ro!

[Chris24601]

I think there is a difference between a character who is morally grey (which Tyrion definitely is) vs a villain. Tyrion does all kinds of awful things, but he isn't trying to execute an evil plan or trying to battle against the forces of good. (I'm struggling with how best to describe this without using the words "Tyrion isn't an evil overlord.") But most of all, in story, he's not supposed to be an antagonist the way someone like Roose Bolton is. If anything he's a protagonist, just a very problematic one!

There's a term for precisely this type of character; Anti-Villain.

 

An anti-villain is basically a sympathetic and understandable villain. Often they are working towards something they and the audience would see as a good, but their efforts and methods to get to that end cause more harm than good to those around them, particularly to innocents and others who are the traditional victims of a villain.

 

Here's the TV Tropes link if you dare... Anti-Villain.

 

Its worth pointing out though that there's often all of a knife's edge difference between an Anti-Villain and an Anti-Hero and its often hard to tell the two apart until the story ends... if the character ends up having some line they just won't cross or turns from their path they could be an anti-hero. If a character you thought had a code decides in the climactic final chapter to say "screw it" and breaks that code to achieve their ends then they've gone into anti-villain territory.

 

Book Tyrion is definitely in anti-villain camp at the moment, but whether he stays there or is just an anti-hero at their lowest point who will eventually get better is yet to be determined.