Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[stillshimpy]

Hmmmm.  Who is Young Griff, I can't help but wonder.  Illyrio was very interested in his fate too.   I feel like I should be able to put those pieces together, but I can't yet.  I'm not asking either, it's just pretty freaking clear that he's not merely a sellsword's son.  So is Lemore really supposed to be Big Griff's sister or his former lover and she's Young Griff's mother?  

 

The story made a point of emphasizing that she has stretch marks, so clearly she's supposed to have a kid running around in the proceedings.  Seems a little on-the-nose to have Young Griff be her child though.  It's just a little odd to have all these characters on the page who are clearly not who they are represented as being.  It's like the Incognito Pole Boat and Off-the-Grid Floating side show.  

 

Illyrio wouldn't be interested in the fate of that kid unless he was someone though.  

 

Also, as per usual, there was the report on the happenings in Tyrion's pants that is almost compulsory at this juncture in the story.  I also wondered what secret Tyrion won in his game of cyvasse-is-intricate-chess and if had anything to do with "Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of Kings." Or if that's meant to imply that Tyrion fancies himself a King of sorts?  

 

I guess I will find out, but if I'm meant to hate Big Griff, I simply don't.  Anybody who cuts Tyrion off from drowning his sorrows has my vote for a -currently-welcome-character.  

Edited December 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Mya Stone]

At least point in the story I had no idea who anyone Tyrion was traveling with was except that they were not who they seemed, shimpy.

And I, too, love Big Griff.

[Haleth]

I love the Big guy too. Fun stuff coming up!

[jellyroll2]

Big Griff is great! You've got fun stuff coming! I'm so excited! I'm also trying to not post much in fear of spoiling things lol

[Terra Nova]

I'll just say that you have already all the necessary clues ;)

[ImpinAintEasy]

Yeah, my lips are sealed, or in this case, my fingers are tied in regards to the Griffs. Just keep reading. 

[sunflower]

For the D&D comments made the last few pages regarding the last couple of seasons being weaker:

 

I don't understand why they just don't take more time -as opposed to 12 months, why not 18 months, it's not the end of the world to wait an extra 6 months to have a better quality season, 10 episodes or not.  Dorne, anyone? 

 

Season 5 was the weakest season even with the brilliant Hardhome set piece and good acting by SD as Stannis.  I also think they overemphasize the significance of Cersei, but I'm biased as I hate the character, book and show.  

Edited December 27, 2015 by sunflower

[Ashara Payne]

The biggest problem is the writing. It'll probably be remade eventually, in which case writing could be done for the whole series in advance. It could even speed up the production process, what with computers getting ever-faster and better. The whole thing has been a great exercise is proving that there is a market for adult fantasy; the reason it's so often sneered at is because so many fantasy movies are bilge (Dungeons & Dragons anyone?).

As to why? It's all about the money, money, money...

[Delta1212]

The problem with taking an extra six months is, assuming eight seasons, that pushed an eight year timeframe to 12 years. That's a very long time to commit to a single project for anyone, and the kids are going to age that much faster on the show as a result.

And while HBO showed some flexibility with the length of time between seasons of Sopranos towards the end, nobody involved is going to be excited at the prospect of 18 months between seasons from a business perspective.

Like the frequent suggestions that they take a year or two off to let GRRM catch up on writing or do a prequel season about Robert's Rebellion to draw out the time more, an extended gap between seasons is one of those things that I think sounds really good to a certain dedicated subset of the fan base for whom a particular concern (the quality and sometimes faithfulness of the seasons, for instance) trumps all other practical concerns which the people making (and paying for) the show ultimately do need to take into account.

[sunflower]

 

I think sounds really good to a certain dedicated subset of the fan base for whom a particular concern (the quality and sometimes faithfulness of the seasons, for instance) trumps all other practical concerns which the people making (and paying for) the show ultimately do need to take into account.

 

Well, makes sense, but if they're not willing to take a little extra time to make the show better, then they'll just have to deal with the criticism they do receive.  Of course, them being rewarded with Emmys for their weakest season, may make that criticism ring lightly.  

 

However, I just don't see that they don't realize how weak the Dorne section of the story was this year.   I mean, other things you can argue, Olly for instance, ugh, but the suckage of Dorne stuck out like a sore, shitty thumb.  And what really sucked is they forced that story on Jaime, another bias, I love Jaime.  

Edited December 27, 2015 by sunflower

[Delta1212]

The biggest problem is the writing. It'll probably be remade eventually, in which case writing could be done for the whole series in advance. It could even speed up the production process, what with computers getting ever-faster and better. The whole thing has been a great exercise is proving that there is a market for adult fantasy; the reason it's so often sneered at is because so many fantasy movies are bilge (Dungeons & Dragons anyone?).

As to why? It's all about the money, money, money...

I've often thought about the remake thing, and honestly I'm not sure how that would work. Yes sometimes TV shows get remade, but those are generally reimaginings like Battlestar, not strict retellings. Game of Thrones isn't a premise, it's an intricately plotted tale, and as many deviations as the show has made, it's still telling basically the same story at this point.

And this isn't like remaking a movie version of some book. We're talking about a multi-year project that's going to have taken around a decade to produce all told. If you think book readers spoiling stuff for watchers of the show is bad, imagine trying to run a series where the basic blueprint for most of your show right up to the ending, especially in the critical first few seasons, has already been covered by both a book series and another extremely popular TV show. There are no real twists you can rely on, especially if we're imagining a more faithful adaptation instead of an even looser one.

It's going to be at least 30-40 years before anyone could conceivably think about going back to that particular well in the same medium. And since I don't think the series would work very well at all on film, I'm pretty sure what we're getting now is going to be it.

(One caveat that just occurred to me, I could see someone deciding to do a faithful animated series in less time than that, as it's a different enough medium to avoid feeling like a complete retread and you could do a lot more of the stuff from the book without having to scale it down for budgetary and technological reasons, which would make it feel like it had a reason to exist other than just "fixing" the show. So if we ever do see another adaptation of the series in a visual medium, my guess is it will be animated rather than live action, especially if we aren't talking several decades in the future).

[Delta1212]

Well, makes sense, but if they're not willing to take a little extra time to make the show better, then they'll just have to deal with the criticism they do receive. Of course, them being rewarded with Emmys for their weakest season, may make that criticism ring lightly.

However, I just don't see that they don't realize how weak the Dorne section of the story was this year. I mean, other things you can argue, Olly for instance, ugh, but the suckage of Dorne stuck out like a sore, shitty thumb. And what really sucked is they forced that story on Jaime, another bias, I love Jaime.

Yeah, Dorne was not good. I think there was a reason they changed it from what is in the book, and if they're doing what I think they are, changing what they did is understandable, but what they changed it to was just... Not good.

And actually, I think that's where the writing process of this show let's it down. I'm very far from being anything like a book purist, but I do think that part of how this production is even possible in the time frame it has to produce these episodes is that the writers are working off of the plotting blueprints of the books. They make changes here and there, and you can debate whether certain changes were good ideas or bad ideas and how well they worked, but mostly they are changes to a central core of a storyline that they are pulling from the books and altering to fit a production.

And in this case, the alteration I think they decided to make on a larger scale to the structure of the story required jettisoning pretty much the whole plot of Dorne as written in book 4, which means that if they were still going to portray Dorne (and I guess it was still necessary that they did in their minds) they no longer really had a central core of story to build around and needed to make something up pretty much from whole cloth.

And that is something I don't think they really have the time or established writing process to handle without a huge risk of it going completely off the rails, which is exactly what happened.

[Terra Nova]

Most of the invented plot would have really benefited from further reworking; some of them still have that 'work in progress' quality, with the barebone plot and the major beats there, but not enough connecting material to give them an organic feeling. So they alternatively drag for other plots to reach the right point - or if they want to get to the shocks! in Episode 9 - and the rush through to reach the expected end point.

 

Or, they prioritize the plot beats over their meaning, ending up with some events taken from the books but having completely opposite meanings. And that's something I really can't stand: Jaime in Dorne, for example, could have ended up with the same beat of the book... heck, have Bronn saying that Tyrion blackmailed Lancel in Season 2 because he was banging Cersei, and that's it.

This is an angle best discussed when Shimpy's done with Dance, though.

[nksarmi]

I simply have no explanation for what happened in Dorne this past season.  Even if the show decided to understandably merge/cut some of the plots GRRM has going in the books - I insist that what they did in Dorne makes no sense.  I also don't understand their choices with Jamie.  Season five spoiler

I suppose for set reasons, I understand them omitting the Riverlands, but they should have still had him on his book four emotionally journey in Dorne.  Also, if they would have just included the queen making plot in some form, instead of making the entire Dorne story "a life for a life" - I think they could have saved that plot for me.  For example, they could have had Doran tell Jamie that across the narrow sea, the Targ queen is stronger than anyone on Westerous realizes.  Then tell him, he could support Myrcella's marriage to the prince of Dorne and crown her queen or Dorne will support Dany when she comes.  Seeing Jamie try to figure out what to do with that would have been far more interesting than him writing letters to Cersei while Oberon's widow gives him a "heart wants what the heart wants speech".  

 

I also don't understand their choices for the North.  I mean, despite the fury that the decision to alter Sansa's story produced, I believe that if (not for shimpy):

they had kept some of the ghost of Winterfell, Frey pies, and the real core of the North Remembers plots - people would have forgiven that choice a lot more.

 

Does anyone know if D&D and the other writers read books four and five in detail?  I know they had read up to book three before they wanted to make the show, but now I almost wonder if they are just going off of GRRM's overall notes for the final seasons.

[bobbybuilderton]

Tbh I sincerely doubt they even read the third book in detail. Had to be reminded Sam is a point of view character. That is simply not possible if you read book 4 or the end of book 3 at all.

 

ETA: Source for the POV comment

Edited December 27, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[Protar]

I'm sure that they read the books every season. Or they should do. I think their problem (or one of their many problems) is that they've never read the books just as fans. They've always been looking at what could be cut and changed for an adaptation. They've always read them in a clinical fashion. Which has lead them to miss out on a lot of things, big and small, which no fan of the series would ever omit. 

[mac123x]

I also wondered what secret Tyrion won in his game of cyvasse-is-intricate-chess and if had anything to do with "Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of Kings."

 

Flash back to AFFC, the Queenmaker chapter, when Arianne's buddy Garin explains that the Old Man of the River is a minor god for the Rhoynar.  I don't know why, but the fact that there actually is a huge turtle (or more than one most likely) that this legend is based on tickled me for some reason.

[Haleth]

I assumed the prize was information. More specifically a confirmation. (Or maybe a "you are not wrong." ;) )

[ambi76]

"Anybody who cuts Tyrion off from drowning his sorrows has my vote for a -currently-welcome-character."

 

Hahahahahaha... Hah.

Edited December 27, 2015 by ambi76

[Alayne Stone]

Shimpy, you have everything you need to know regarding who the Griffs are. You made two very astute comments in your last post about them, but I won't point out what they are until a little later.

 

I don't think I quite knew who they all were either at this point though, like most people here. Just that they weren't who they said they were.

 

When you finish Dance I'll be very curious to see if you're still willing to give the two creators the benefit of the doubt. As much as they blundered Dorne in the show, I still think what they did with the Winterfell arc and to some extents what they did to Jon/Stannis's arc is just by far the worst thing they have done to date. I used to give the show the benefit of the doubt right up to the season 4 finale, but season 5 just killed it for me.

 

And I agree they should just stop doing the inside the episodes. No good has come from it. Maybe replace them with some of the cinema crew. I always love hearing how they are able to construct the amazing CGI/big battle scenes. Use the actors as well. I wouldn't mind hearing about their process when they film their scenes. But D&D should just stop themselves.

[Terra Nova]

I don't think I quite knew who they all were either at this point though, like most people here. Just that they weren't who they said they were.

 

For me something 'strange' happened. I was pretty clueless at the end of this Tyrion's chapter, but in the next one, when

Tyrion mentions 'the prince

I didn't react with a 'woah!', but more with a 'ah, as I expected'... so I think I may have unconsciously connected the dots in between chapters but without realizing it ^^'

 

As much as they blundered Dorne in the show, I still think what they did with the Winterfell arc and to some extents what they did to Jon/Stannis's arc is just by far the worst thing they have done to date

 

And yet, in my opinion, having never cared that much for Dorne while adoring Sansa and Dance's Northern plot, what they did with Dorne is worse: the WinterHell arc is incredibly bad as an adaptation, but it has a resemblance of progression, themes, arc (I'm feigning Stannis doesn't exists because rotfl!), albeit misguided (i.e. Ramsay superSue). It's a bad adaptation, but not that bad as a work for tv.

 

Dorne is a hot mess, it defies logic from start to finish, the arc ends in a whimper, the dialogue, acting, coreography, even Myrcella costumes, are atrocious, the characters are paper-thin. It's a hollow shell with TWO main characters erased to leave space to a bunch of third-tier characters who manage to be even more cartonish on screen. It's simply bad television, something that could be argued Winterhell is not, or not to this extent. It bares no resemblance to book material and then reduces Dorne to the sterotype of 'Eastern cultures' a British citizen may have had in the 18th century, to add insult to injury.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Terra Nova

[mac123x]

Another thing I liked with that particular Tyrion chapter is that he's a huge reader and a student of history, and here he's getting to experience some of that up close and personal, seeing Nymeria's palace in the flesh.  He wanted to do this kind of touring when he was younger, but Tywin wouldn't let him.

[Alayne Stone]

For me, it was just the fact that the only thing kept from the Winterfell arc is

Ramsay rapes his wife.

That's it. That's the only thing that stayed the same.

Theon doesn't even rescue Jeyne. The spearwives rescue him and Jeyne. They only jump at the last minute because there are no other options. And that's not even including the strange hooded man in Winterfell, all the missing Northern Lords, Lady Dustin ... MANCE. I can't wait for Shimpy to find out that Mance is alive and in Winterfell.

 

And of course where Stannis is concerned:

My favorite part is that Asha is actually around for the campaign. I can't wait for Shimpy to get to that part too and be like WHOA DID NOT SEE THAT COMING.

 

And Mel's one POV. I can't wait for Shimpy to get to that as well.

[glowbug]

The Northern storylines are SO MUCH BETTER in the books in every possible way. The sad thing is the show missed a huge opportunity because the Winterfell plot in particular could have played beautifully on screen. This wasn't a case where it was wonderfully written but there was no way it would translate to film. But at least we got Hardhome, which IMO (save the Shireen bit in the beginning) was actually one of the strongest episodes of the entire series

which is surprising because it doesn't even happen in the books.

 

I think the reason Dorne ended up being worse despite having an arguably weaker book storyline (and was therefore less of a missed opportunity) is that if you take all the show storylines on their own, forgetting the books for a moment, all three northern storylines (Jon's, Theon's and Stannis') are just so much stronger than the tragedy that was Dorne. I just don't know what the writers were thinking with the Dorne plot. Nothing about it made any sense. It would have been better to have left it out entirely. It did none of the characters any favors, especially poor Jamie who has a brilliant arc in Feast, and it was one big sad waste of time without the payoff of Fire and Blood at the end. 

[WSmith84]

I honestly don't really get the 'Hardhome was a great episode' thing. I think that Blackwater was a far better action episode, and most of the rest of it was very 'meh.' Particularly the Tyrion-Dany scenes. Man, I thought that they were hugely disappointing.

[Brn2bwild]

I honestly don't really get the 'Hardhome was a great episode' thing. I think that Blackwater was a far better action episode, and most of the rest of it was very 'meh.' Particularly the Tyrion-Dany scenes. Man, I thought that they were hugely disappointing.

 

I was just grateful (book and S5 spoilers)

we got a Tyrion and Dany meeting scene at all.  Wonder if shimpy will be disappointed to learn that they don't meet in ADWD.  They did sync a little too quickly, though, given that Tyrion was the son of the man who killed Dany's niece and nephew and the brother of the Kingslayer.

[bobbybuilderton]

For me, it was just the fact that the only thing kept from the Winterfell arc is

Ramsay rapes his wife.

That's it. That's the only thing that stayed the same.

Theon doesn't even rescue Jeyne. The spearwives rescue him and Jeyne. They only jump at the last minute because there are no other options. And that's not even including the strange hooded man in Winterfell, all the missing Northern Lords, Lady Dustin ... MANCE. I can't wait for Shimpy to find out that Mance is alive and in Winterfell.

 

And of course where Stannis is concerned:

My favorite part is that Asha is actually around for the campaign. I can't wait for Shimpy to get to that part too and be like WHOA DID NOT SEE THAT COMING.

 

And Mel's one POV. I can't wait for Shimpy to get to that as well.

Yeah man it's almost like

the books don't just ignore that the ironborn exist for large stretches of time for some weird reason

[nksarmi]

I honestly don't really get the 'Hardhome was a great episode' thing. I think that Blackwater was a far better action episode, and most of the rest of it was very 'meh.' Particularly the Tyrion-Dany scenes. Man, I thought that they were hugely disappointing.

 

I don't know if it was because much of the season was weak or because Kit and all the extras did an amazing job or specifically because it wasn't in the books - but I felt like I held my breath for the entire sequence.  Hardhome was definitely the height of season five for me.  And even though I knew I was being emotionally manipulated - they still gutted me with some of their choices (not being too specific since it is technically a season five spoiler). 

 

And I have to say that (episode spoiler)

I truly expected that Walker to freeze the damn lake and send the zombies out for Jon and crew.  I was yelling "row!" at my screen.  Even though I damn well knew Jon survived that because I knew the book betrayal was coming - for that sequence, they got me so caught up in the moment that I forgot everything I knew. 

 

That's why Hardhome was amazing to me.  And I have to agree with those who said that even though the Northern story in the books is so. much. better. than the show - I think the show's version still works as an understandable plot.  The problem with show Dorne is that it's just crap.  It's so crappy that my unsullied viewing partner was making fun of it.  It was just plain bad.

[WSmith84]

Personally, I thought Jon's plot was OK in S5. But Stannis' and the Winterfell plots...

everyone had to take a big dose of stupid pills to get Sansa to Winterfell, and Stannis 'I'll burn my only living heir' Baratheon was just cheap emotional manipulation.

 

The scene with Tyrion and Dany were so disappointing for me.

For one, Dany had to revert to a mindset that she hadn't had since S1, that the common people of Westeros would rise for her, just to make Tyrion look clever and that he was giving her good advice. Then there was the fact that he ignored half of the great Houses when discussing who might support her. And then there was the crowning cherry on that turd-cake; the 'break the wheel' speech. A speech of zero substance. OK, Dany's going to break the wheel. What does that mean? Remove the moncarchy and nobility? Of course not. Make the system one of absolutism instead of feudalism? So that would be House Targaryen on top then? Not a very broken wheel, after all. And Tyrion doesn't ask what she means either. It's writing like this that turned me off the show.

[Ashara Payne]

And I have to say that (episode spoiler)

I truly expected that Walker to freeze the damn lake and send the zombies out for Jon and crew. I was yelling "row!" at my screen. Even though I damn well knew Jon survived that because I knew the book betrayal was coming - for that sequence, they got me so caught up in the moment that I forgot everything I knew.

Haha I thought exactly the same thing.

[dragonbone]

The story made a point of emphasizing that she has stretch marks, so clearly she's supposed to have a kid running around in the proceedings.

 

 

I always find GGRM's writing style interesting.  After reading this much of him, you can really tell when a he has written paragraphs to hide a clue, as some innocuous sentence.   He is very, very, careful to give you enough clues to make it feel like a) the next reveal or event is logical, and b) make you feel that if you very clever you could piece it together in advance, but c) he almost never gives you enough clues to solve something in advance.  

This is my second/third reading through and I'm finding the twists and turns, they are all logical, but there's no way I would guess them from the clues at hand. 

 

But the stretch marks on the Septa and a super interesting.  It's a piece of writing that invokes Chekov's gun.  It simply has to become relevant to the story at some point. The whole passage seems to be there to carry that one bit of information.

 This is one of the most enjoyable parts of book, that is really hard to replicate in show viewing. Shimpy and the unsullied tried valiantly. I think we can agree that for the later seasons GRRM's puzzles couldn't translate to the screen.

Edited December 29, 2015 by dragonbone

[stillshimpy]

It's a piece of writing that invokes Chekov's gun.

Heh, yeah that would be Chekhov, by the way. Chekhov wrote plays, Chekov was on Star Trek, but I know what you mean.

Well, Davos is in White Harbor, trying to drum up some support for King Stannis of the Murderous Barbecue and whereas there were a lot of fun details that go into world-building and another version of Tywin's death that really emphasized the "man who will go down in history for shit..." (and if he could care, he would have hated that, it's just...that kind of caring is for the living) ,  Other than that, that was a place-holding chapter and felt like a bit of narrative stalling for the sake of it.  I did like the descriptions of the town though and Davos' recon was fun.  

 

Ducksauce showed up again and ultimately declared war on Dany.  So I've never actually commented much on the racial politics of this show, but I do know that people have been upset by Dany's White Savior treatment in the show.  The show has made the somewhat odd choice to rework characters right down to their skin color.  So Daxos (Ducksauce) goes from being a white, gay dude with a see-through level of duplicity to the screen as a black, double-crossing, handmaid luring straight guy.  The Unsullied killed at the top of this book was recast as a Grey Worm look-alike to briefly fake-out the audience and everything was made more simplistic for the screen.  

 

It's kind of a weird thing, in that Dany's story is the most faithfully retold, but only about half of it makes it onto screen.  Also, her crush on Dario is at least a little mortifying to read about.  It doesn't help that every time I read his name I can't help but think Martin based him on Fabio of the Romance Novel Cover fame.  

[bobbybuilderton]

Daario's nauseating nature in the book was the basis for people wanting him to look absurd in the show, if you ever heard what his book version looked like before you read them. You're supposed to kind of roll your eyes at her interest in him...In the show, especially after the recast, he's just this understandably good looking dude who's a pretty rational subject of her desire lol

 

ETA:

lol narrative stalling...we actually receive important information about the manderlys in that chapter that helps us figure out that it's all an act when Davos is in the Merman's court later. GRRM you sly bastard

Edited December 29, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I'm not sure what happened with the first actor -- maybe someone noticed he couldn't actually act -- but at least in affect he was a fit for book Daario.  Admittedly, I'm okay with him not being in line with book Daario.  Book Daario, aside from his absurd appearance, isn't an actual character at this point.  So her interest in him in the books isn't just baffling, it's cartoony on multiple levels. 

 

Plus, I can also see why the show wouldn't necessarily have wanted to depict what is a silly teen obsession when they already tasked Sansa with that.  

[WSmith84]

Yeah, Dany's interest in book Daario is more than a little baffling. Daario to me is like an on-page STD; I feel like I need a good long bath and scrub-down after reading about him.

[Alayne Stone]

Okay, so his arrival is separate from the courtroom scene/Wylla's speech then? I was expecting more comments from Shimpy but that explains why we didn't get any if that's the case.

 

They've eliminated so many of the colorful and interesting characters from Dany's storyline. I think the racial swapping only gets worse from here.

[bobbybuilderton]

Okay, so his arrival is separate from the courtroom scene/Wylla's speech then? I was expecting more comments from Shimpy but that explains why we didn't get any if that's the case.

 

They've eliminated so many of the colorful and interesting characters from Dany's storyline. I think the racial swapping only gets worse from here.

yeah you have a chapter where he is on sisterton looking for passage to white harbor, then you have a chapter where he arrives in white harbor, then the wait in the dungeons/the court, then hes back in the dungeons and we find out manderlys intentions

[Terra Nova]

This re-read is really highlighting some small details I forgot, like Dany throwing stuff at Xaro Xhoan Daxos, who duplicitous as he may be is still an envoy ^^' There's a complexity in the political scenario that I understand would have never been fully translated on screen, but almost nothing of that survives in the series, at this point at least (I still think some of this will be reworked in next season).

 

As for Davos (Alayne, it is how you say under the spoiler), it's a nice piece of world-building, and it helps the reader to frame who knows what, at this point. Also, Shimpy is not that interested in Davos character (and it's fair enough), but until now his chapters are aligning exactly with what we knew of him in Feast, so this last one may be less eventful than others just for ramping up the tension a little bit.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Delta1212]

Plus, Dany is, what, 15ish in the books? She's aged up on the show and Emilia Clarke is clearly not 15. I think someone book-Dany's age having a silly crush on someone like book-Daario makes more sense than if show-Dany had the same feelings for a similar character.

[vibeology]

Yes to your last point. I like that the show aged some of the characters up. I would have been horrified watching a 13 year old Dany be raped by adult Drogo, but 15 isn't 20 and I do think that aging a character up will mean that some elements of their plot should be changed. Adult, self-possessed Dany can't be writing "Dany + Dario 4ever" on her parchment. I need her to be a little more mature than that, so then Dario has to change a bit too so that makes sense. I don't mind that book Dario was abandoned because Dany would look ridiculous crushing on that guy. A genuinely suave and sexy guy whose motives are a little questionable is a far more believable love interest than book Dario.

 

I love book Dario as a joke. I look back on the guys I thought were awesome when I was 15 and they are preposterous, immature, not sexy and kind of dumb. One guy wore coloured contacts that looked like lizard eyes. I thought that was so cool and now I look at that and laugh. As much as Martin struggles with writing Dany as a real woman character, I do think he got this exactly right, while understanding why it doesn't work in the adaptation.

[stillshimpy]

I love book Dario as a joke. I look back on the guys I thought were awesome when I was 15 and they are preposterous, immature, not sexy and kind of dumb.

 

It's actually something that Martin does consistently and well when it comes to his female characters.  I thought the same thing about Sansa and Joffrey.  When people would wonder why it took so long for her to catch onto the fact that Joffrey was a monster, I think back on all the guys I thought were wonderful when I was a teenager and all the starter relationships we all had, it actually is one of the more realistic notes in the story.  Almost all teen girls go through a stage where all it takes is a tall haircut and you just fill in the details on your own.  Those details generally are pretty divorced from the reality of the actual person.  

[stillshimpy]

By the way, I almost forgot about this as I was contemplating the Great Posturing Haircut that is Daario:  

 

Fuck.  The Umbers are with the Boltons in the book.  I forget where Osha was headed with Rickon in the book, but in the show they were headed to the Umbers.  So that gave me a lurching feeling in the pit of my stomach.  

 

I actually like Davos, by the way.  It's Stannis-is-a-drip that I tend to drone on about.  Davos also benefits from being able to superimpose the actor onto the characterization, because the actor made him really lovable on the show. 

[Alayne Stone]

You know, I don't think it has been mentioned in the books where Osha took Rickon.

 

Not yet, anyway.

 

And yeah, I think many girls end up liking really stupid guys when they are younger. GRRM is very self-conscious of this fact.

Barriston even comments on how young girls are drawn to passion and fire when thinking about Daenerys and Daario and how the prince frog never had a chance with her.

 

I like Davos too, Shimpy. :)

Edited December 29, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[Haleth]

I can't read a Davos chapter without seeing/hearing Liam Cunningham. Excellent casting.

[WindyNights]

Davos was created because GRRM needed someone to give Stannis' POV without getting inside his head.

He's basically a more interesting Areo Hotah.

[mac123x]

Ducksauce showed up again and ultimately declared war on Dany.

 

Little detail you might not have noticed (but your brain did) (sorry, Mr. Plinkett reference there):  Xaro tells Dany that shortly after she left Qarth, Pyat Pree and three other warlocks took ship headed to Pentos to hunt her down.

 

Flash back to AFFC, Euron talking to Victarion while setting up his next assignment for the Iron Fleet:  Euron offered Vic some shade-of-the-evening wine, telling him that he took it off a ship from Qarth, along with four warlocks.  The warlocks weren't cooperative, so he fried one of them up and made the other three eat him. 

 

So either Pyat Pree is working for Euron now, or he's been eaten. 

[Terra Nova]

In the books the whole point is that we do not know where Osha went with Rickon. They just disappear from the narration. Which is why I always found strange that the show added the notion of them going to Last Hearth, only to disappear later just as in the books. 

 

But remember, Shimpy, Theon saw two guys sitting with Ramsay in his first chapter, and even if no name was given, just a short description of them, after Davos chapter you can at least infer that the big man in the greasy bearskin is an Umber.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Terra Nova

[WSmith84]

The casting of the show is excellent. I think the lady who casts the show also casted the new Star Wars film (excellently casted).

[bobbybuilderton]

We were not told where Rickon went in the books

Edited December 29, 2015 by bobbybuilderton

[Haleth]

The casting of the show is excellent. I think the lady who casts the show also casted the new Star Wars film (excellently casted).

I heard this yesterday after seeing the movie. I agree that she found some new stars (no pun) for that project too.