Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[glowbug]

Shimpy, you are not wrong about Martin's language use in this book.

"Not wrong" had to be the most overused awkward pseudo medieval phrase in the whole book. It was used so often it actually took me out of the story every single time. I went back and searched and found that it was used 31 times (including variations such as "not very wrong"). Jon is the worst offender but nearly every character uses it at least once. The phrase was used only 8 times in the previous four books combined and 7 of those occurrences were in A Feast for Crows. I know it's nitpicky but it really drove me nuts. I think if I were more into the story I wouldn't have noticed as much but it was really irritating.

[stillshimpy]

Well that was a fun surprise.  An eventful chapter and it was one of Tyrion's, which are sometimes too much stewing over the past to be particularly enjoyable. This last was great though.  New characters introduced and everything.  

 

I'm not sure who Griff is supposed to be or if I should be able to identify him and I suspect all of these people are terribly dangerous: Haldon, Duck and Griff but they were interesting and amusing. Ducks in a field.  There are worse ways to come by a name.

 

Season five

Of course none of this bears any resemblance to what went on in the show, so that's part of it too, it feels fresh to me.

 

I was about to say that it was interesting to have a menacing figure introduced sans animal torture, but then I realized Griff's cloak was there to represent Martin's talisman.   

[stillshimpy]

Davos has been to Sisterton after Salla finally had enough and took his men home to get it on with their wives.  An oddly touching detail.  "Aw, that's sweet.  I think.  I mean, I think that means that they aren't out there raping and plundering on the high seas.   Hell, if doesn't mean that, I'll just pretend that it does  Whee!"  

 

Now who the heck is the sailing woman that Ned Stark allegedly knocked up?  That was a case of "Huh? Another candidate for Jon's mother?  Interesting, but who the hell is she meant to be?  Ashara Payne? "  Ned's alleged mistress seems to have something in common with Spartacus.  

 

I did like that Tyrion's murder of Tywin has grown in both brutality and lurid detail.  Now that is one trick of Martin's that I do like, sharing the often wildly different stories that go into making history.  

[Lady S.]

Also, jumping back to the topic of change in language, I'll point out the word nuncle which suddenly appears here. I thought it was a iron island thing at first but Jaime says it to. It's quite jarring.

All through Feast I had convinced myself that that stupid word was just a very persistent editing error. Then it shows up again in Dance and I had to realize he was serious with this shit. 

 

ETA: Also?  The editor is his accomplice in all of this, so ...again...he or she is going to be doing a lot of "Yeah, those are socks.  Put it down."   

In this case, if Martin was lying he'd be lying to his editor, not with his editor. She never revealed anything about Coldhands, A reddit user found the ADwD manuscript (where it's stored at Texas A&M, for some reason), and posted pictures of some of the more interesting pages, including this one featuring Coldhands. The best find though imo, was the editor numbering every use of words are wind, which, as we know, was a phrase Martin was absolutely unwilling to part with. 

[WSmith84]

I find it a weirdly charming detail that Saan and his pirates are loyal beyond real sense. I mean, they were the rearguard fleet in the Battle of the Blackwater and stayed loyal while many of Stannis' men turned cloaks or fled. They could easily have switched allegiances, but instead remained loyal to the man yet to pay them. Maybe Saan was thinking of Davos when he did it, but still, that's a lot of loyalty bought with zero coin. Saan must be a man of his word.

[stillshimpy]

Aha, so she asked if Coldhands was Benjen and how long was his answer?  Because again, the point stands that there are still ways for it to be Benjen. 

 

ETA: Okay, I looked at that link and the most obvious question is...why do you guys think that's real?  

 

Which it could be real, but he could also be answering the second question "Does Bran not recognize him because his face is covered."  

Edited December 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Autarch]

I always thought he was answering the first question about Coldhands, though the 'no' to the second question also casts doubt on the first. But as mentioned, he's replied similarly when asked if Stoneheart was Catelyn, also for Beric. Basically, we either take what Martin says with a grain of salt, or look for other answers, or maybe something in between. I think his replies point to something trickier going on in the story, but that's best saved for later.

 

As for its authenticity, I don't know if anyone can confirm it beyond the original thread but it's well know that that's where Martin's manuscripts are being saved.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Autarch

[Lady S.]

ETA: Okay, I looked at that link and the most obvious question is...why do you guys think that's real?  

 

Which it could be real, but he could also be answering the second question "Does Bran not recognize him because his face is covered."  

Because that is where the manuscript is stored, (where all the original manuscripts are stored actually) and the user posted pictures from outside and inside the library. There's a second post with more pictures inside of the replica weapons and such, which discusses the AGoT manuscript.

 

If the no was only for the second question, why not write yes for the first? I don't see why he would reply in the same tricksy way he uses with fans when making remarks to his editor. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by Lady S.

[stillshimpy]

Perhaps because he intended to explain at a different time rather than spill the story in the margins?  But again, I'm just not inclined to put a  lot of faith in that particular source.  If you are, well you have a touching faith in humanity.  No seriously, I just don't understand why people are attributing that to George Martin having a substantial exchange with his editor. 

 

ETA: Also, so that I don't end up having really weird dreams (I had a very strange one in which a friend ran around killing people with Jaime's sword the other night) ...Why is this all at a Texas University?  Is Martin a Texan...?  That actually won't impact my opinion of it, it just adds to the "is Timothy Leary in the vault too?" of it all. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Lady S.]

ETA: Also, so that I don't end up having really weird dreams (I had a very strange one in which a friend ran around killing people with Jaime's sword the other night) ...Why is this all at a Texas University?  Is Martin a Texan...?  That actually won't impact my opinion of it, it just adds to the "is Timothy Leary in the vault too?" of it all. 

No, he's from New Jersey and went to college at Northwestern. Apparently he just gave stuff to A&M because they asked him. 

 

Ftr, I don't think there was any substantial exchange to be made, because I've never really believed in the Coldhands=Benjen theory. So I think he gave a simple answer because that's all there is to it.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Lady S.

[stillshimpy]

Oookay. You have your opinion, I have mine.  Godspeed. 

 

That is among the trippier and funnier things I've seen.  This is a very dedicated fandom, I take it.  

 

Anyway, moving onwards to more Jon. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Let's put it this way, when an early plot outline that Martin gave his editor with his thoughts on the overall direction of the series through the end of book one (which actually wound up covering through roughly book three with significant deviations from what actually wound up on the page) there was a redacted paragraph at the bottom of said letter.

There was a concerted effort to figure out what was contained in that paragraph based on slivers (and I mean slivers) of letters that were just barely visible above and below parts of the black bar and comparing the spacing, size, etc to the text in other sections to figure out what letters they were, what letters were likely between them and eventually what words they probably formed.

It got a lot farther along than I would have anticipated when I first saw the redaction.

Edit: And just to say, it doesn't look like there was anything terribly interesting in that section that would have needed redacting.

Edited again: You're coming up on a couple of chapters I'm really looking forward to soon.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

Well and guys, I did what I always do when something like this comes up: I turned around and asked Mya why anyone was putting such stock in that manuscript and her answer pretty much lined up with mine.   So clearly opinions differ on this one, but only time is going to reveal the real answer on it.  But my "??" is also partly based on this: So Marin knows about the incredibly dedicated efforts of his fanbase to put together clues, right? (I already know the answer to that is "yes, he does") but people believe he donated a manuscript with notes in the margins that are revealing.  

 

Going back to: But he knows there's a fanbase that does this stuff? (already knowing the answer to that) ...and again....we're all free to do with that whatever we choose, but I don't put the same level "Oh, that's settled, I see" into it at the present time. 

 

So seeing as opinions on this are set , I'm just going to keep mine and drop the subject here. 

[Drunken Grumkin]

Shimpy, you are not wrong about Martin's language use in this book.

"Not wrong" had to be the most overused awkward pseudo medieval phrase in the whole book. It was used so often it actually took me out of the story every single time. I went back and searched and found that it was used 31 times (including variations such as "not very wrong"). Jon is the worst offender but nearly every character uses it at least once. The phrase was used only 8 times in the previous four books combined and 7 of those occurrences were in A Feast for Crows. I know it's nitpicky but it really drove me nuts. I think if I were more into the story I wouldn't have noticed as much but it was really irritating.

 

How is "not wrong" pseudo-medieval?  It doesn't sound archaic to me, and it appears to have maintained fairly consistent usage:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=not+wrong&year_start=1500&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cnot%20wrong%3B%2Cc0

 

Do you also dislike "not bad"?

[Brn2bwild]

The one quasi-medievalism that Martin uses that I haven't seen mentioned: "must needs."  As in "I must needs discuss this with my kinsfolk."  I get that some places people talked like that (and some may still), but it drives me crazy.

[mac123x]

Regarding Coldhands = Benjen theory, one of the counter-arguments is from the text itself.  Bran's first chapter:

 

Coldhands stood beside the door, a raven on his arm, both staring at the fire.  Reflections from the flames glittered off four black eyes.

 

Coldhands (and the raven) have black eyes.  I can't remember off the top of my head (and I don't feel like searching GoT) but Benjen most likely had grey eyes like Ned.  That's not exactly definitive, since it could have just been a trick of the light that made his eyes look black to Bran.  Book 5 spoiler:

Later Leaf says that he died long ago, and Benjen has only been missing a couple of years.  To a child of the forest, 2 years isn't that long ago.  Again, not definitive but definitely could point elsewhere

 

'm not sure who Griff is supposed to be or if I should be able to identify him and I suspect all of these people are terribly dangerous: Haldon, Duck and Griff but they were interesting and amusing. Ducks in a field.  There are worse ways to come by a name.

 

I like that group of people, and Ser Rolly's "...don't laugh, now" had me chuckling.   And I would have loved to see what was in that letter from Illyrio. 

Book 5 spoiler:

I enjoyed that chapter even more on reread, because it becomes obvious that Tyrion knew exactly who Griff was from day 1.  "This wide world is full of such mad tales.  Grumkins and snarks, ghosts and ghouls, mermaids, rock goblins, winged horses, winged pigs... winged lions."  That was Tyrion saying "up yours, I know exactly who you are, Jon Connington of Griffin's Roost" without having to spell it out.  I loved it.

[glowbug]

How is "not wrong" pseudo-medieval? It doesn't sound archaic to me, and it appears to have maintained fairly consistent usage:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=not+wrong&year_start=1500&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cnot%20wrong%3B%2Cc0

Do you also dislike "not bad"?

I think it's an uncommon way of saying "right" and I believe Martin used that phrasing because it sounds a little formal and different, which people often associate with old fashioned language. With Dance there seems to be a concerted effort to make things sound more medieval, which has been discussed above. "Not bad" is more commonly used so it doesn't sound awkward to me. I've never had someone tell me "you're not wrong" but I have had people say "you're right". To me, "not wrong" sounds awkward, but my main complaint was that it was overused. Thirty one times in one novel is excessive in my opinion. I think Dance in particular suffers from repeated phrases and that one just stood out to me. Edited December 22, 2015 by glowbug

[WindyNights]

I seem to remember Arya and Ned saying, "For true? For true" to each other. 

 

That's medieval language for "for realz, yo"

Edited December 22, 2015 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

Okay and this is a very good analysis someone posted on the changes that Renly and Stannis endured in the transition to the show.

 

I figured it's okay to post here, right? It's safe to read even for Shimpy.

 

http://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/135312176762/book-2-vs-season-2-cain-and-abel-baratheon

 

While the bones of the story make a decent one-season tragedy in and of themselves, the depiction of Renly and Stannis demonstrates a thorough misunderstanding of GRRM’s aims with the two. GRRM created two different, contrasting images: the Good King and the Evil King, and then undermined both. Popular, charming Good King Renly is a nepotistic thug and a destabilising, regressive political force; abrasive, vindictive Stannis believes merit is more important than birth and alone makes a good faith promise to return Catelyn’s daughters to her if he finds them.

 

For the adaptation, the show made the surface image the reality, and in doing so changed the meaning of the story dramatically. After all, in the book, it’s not much of a loss for the realm that Renly died, whereas in the show Renly goes out immediately after saying “we could win this war in a fortnight.” That is another thematic point the show missed: Stannis’ myopic concern for his rights and Renly’s selfish bid for power are both wrong and both destructive. As Catelyn said at the Storm’s End parley in the book, but not the show, “The realm bleeds.”

 

Renly’s murder at the hands of his evil brother is a story for one season, yet the “evil” brother, under the influence of the exceedingly sinister and obviously evil Melisandre, has a lot more to do in this series. What’s more, after acting as an antagonist to Tyrion at the Battle of the Blackwater, book!Stannis grows steadily more heroic as his good qualities win out over his worst ones. And eventually, with help from Davos, he too sees that the realm bleeds and decides to do something about it. Needless to say, this is not an arc the show gives us.

[ambi76]

Um, there is some intense Renly-hating going on in that blog post, WindyNights, I must say, and I'm not one to think Renly was an innocent gay little woobie either.

 

Back to ADWD: Cool that you like those new characters so much, shimpy. I must confess they mostly just irritated me at first and only grew on me after having the "Big Picture" of their story. Also interesting to me that you are not too much annoyed by Tyrion because well spoiler

yet.

[John Potts]

Hmm. Not sure  like any analysis predicated on the idea "X is clearly evil" - GRRM writes even the villains to have some redeeming features, at least most of the time (the Boltons have yet to show any positive features, to my recollection). I definitely wouldn't describe Mel as "obviously evil" - she's definitely a fanatic (which may be worse!), but she is (as far as we can tell) genuinely trying to save the world...no matter who she has to sacrifice. By all means regard her as  villain and if you think she should de in a fire as a fitting end, that's fine too...only I wouldn't say she's "obviously evil".

 

Incidentally, I say "You're not wrong" - not perhaps every day, but it doesn't strike me as particularly unusual. But now I'm starting to imagine how the exchange might have gone in more modern lingo:

"Banging her bro? That Cersei is one ****ed up c***."

"Yo, but what about that hot piece of ass Mel?"

Fo' shizzle, but she's totally off her head!"

"For reals! Bitches be crazy!"

....which I'm not sure is any better!

 

Incidentally, since I'm heading off to family tomorrow, have a cheerful Chrismukkah, Divine Divali, Excellent Eid, Super Saturnalia and/or Cool Yule.... or whatever else you celebrate at this time of year!

Edited December 22, 2015 by John Potts

[Seerow]

On the "not wrong" thing, I think that's definitely more of a regional/dialect thing than a medieval thing. I know I use it fairly frequently (but most often it's something like "You're not wrong... but you're not right either"), it's just not something that ever stuck out to me as being noteworthy in the way that the sudden appearance of nuncle, five and ten, and words are wind, did.

[Haleth]

For me "not wrong" is like "not guilty."  It doesn't mean "correct" (or "innocent") but is somewhere in between.  (I used to drive teachers crazy with true/false quizzes, arguing that under certain circumstances my answers were not wrong.)

[Delta1212]

On the "not wrong" thing, I think that's definitely more of a regional/dialect thing than a medieval thing. I know I use it fairly frequently (but most often it's something like "You're not wrong... but you're not right either"), it's just not something that ever stuck out to me as being noteworthy in the way that the sudden appearance of nuncle, five and ten, and words are wind, did.

Ditto. I've used it plenty, and don't exactly consider it a fancier way of saying "right." It's probably even a bit more informal, and the connotation is slightly different.

I think it's a bit more non-committal than a straight up agreement. Maybe I agree with you, maybe I'm grudgingly allowing that you're correct even though I'm not happy about it, maybe I can't deny what you said even if I don't fully agree, maybe I just don't feel like coming down strongly way one or the other but am allowing that what you said is, well, not wrong. Maybe I just feel like saying that instead of "you're right."

And maybe I'm Obi-wan Kenobi and can just never give a straight answer to anything.

[stillshimpy]

I liked that analysis, not because I think it is accurate.  As it happens, I don't. I just like the thought process behind it, thanks for sharing it.  The Renly/Stannis comparison is a little too "inverting the trope" rather than humanizing it.  Good King Renly was not Evil  incarnate or a thug (that's just an odd accusation) and Stannis thinks birth is pretty much everything. 

 

 

 

Coldhands (and the raven) have black eyes.  I can't remember off the top of my head (and I don't feel like searching GoT) but Benjen most likely had grey eyes like Ned.

 

But I don't think that's Benjen's body.  There has to be a genetic element to being a warg as it is present to some degree or other in all the Stark kids.   All of the Stark kids (plus Jon, however much Stark he has from either Ned or Lyanna).  That suggests a genetic trait.  We know it's not from the Tullys because: Jon.   That means it's from the Starks.   If Ned was a warg, he kept it under wraps but people pass on genes of things they don't manifest.  That does mean that the other Stark kids in Ned's generation might have had the same gene.  If Lyanna was a Warg, there hasn't been a hint of it.  Then again, the only hint about Lyanna's personality has been that she was willful.  If Benjen was a warg then that's not Benjen's body, but it is Benjen.   The entire book opens with a Warg looking for where to go when his body dies.   We never learned anything about Benjen as a young man, why he went towards the Wall, what might have called him to it.   So it remains entirely possible at this juncture in the story, that Benjen was a warg. 

 

Black eyes mean...that's not a Wight.  No blue light in the eyes (which by the way, was when I started assuming "Ooooh.  Benjen was a warg, wasn't he?" ) means no animating force typically associated with Zombonis.  Black eyes on the Coldhanded dude means that's a wight being animated by something else.  I think it is Benjen.   

 

So, once again, that's how I think it is Benjen.  Benjen's eye color is really not going to matter when he's housed in Dead Thing number 7548.  

 

Again, I'm going to move on from that, but that is where my opinion stands on it and I've no reason to question it at this time, because even if that manuscript is telling the gospel truth...that explanation still fits.  That would not be Benjen (while still being Benjen).  Bran would fail to recognize him, but it wouldn't have to do with his face being covered...except by being covered by someone else's face.  

 

Forward and back into the story regarding language usage:  Some things are going to stand out more than others, there are only a couple that are like needle scratches on the turn table for me, out of all of those Nuncle wins my "Noooooo.  Make it stop!" award.  However, having complained about that, I do have to admit that there is something else that is kind of cool to go along with it:  for all that Martin has his go-tos in writing and they standout, he's actually very good at maintaining character voices that are distinct.  That's so difficult to do with all these characters, but I know that I'll either perk up at the sight of a character name or sort of wince as I anticipate "Oh...it's him! (or "Oh. It's him"  with less enthusiasm) and that actually speaks to having a gift with character voice, even with the contrivance of some odd language inclusion.  

 

I just glanced at the first sentence in the next chapter and realized this is where Mance Rayder is going to be killed.  Season five

Jon's motivation for putting him out of his misery should be entirely changed.  The show took a pass on Melisandre making these burning sacrifices to achieve a very specific goal, except for the stuff with Gendry.  When Florent is burned on the show, it's for being a heretic, not to blow anyone's ships to any shores.  Similarly, I'm assuming that Melisandre is going to want Mance dead for magical purposes more than treasonous punishment.

 

Keeping in mind all the stuff about Melisandre posing a danger to Gilly's son and Jon sending Sam away to save Mance's son, etc. and presumably because he thinks this kind of magic is outright evil  and can do the realm no good, this ought to be a really intriguing chapter. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[mac123x]

"Not wrong" can mean "you have a valid opinion but I still disagree with you."  Jon thinks it about his sworn brothers' concerns for allying with the wildlings.  They're not wrong about the dangers, he just thinks the danger from the Others outweighs the possibility that the wildlings will turn on the NW.

 

Popular, charming Good King Renly is a nepotistic thug and a destabilising, regressive political force; abrasive, vindictive Stannis believes merit is more important than birth

 

Yeah, no to the bolded part.  Stannis is the one who thinks he is king simply because he's next in line.  Renley is the one who thinks merit ("I'll be a better king than Stannis") outweighs birthright.  Whether he actually would be a better king is a different issue.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, that Stannis statement isn't just an opinion, it's demonstrably wrong.  So wrong that I initially assumed that the writer had just had a moment of name confusion and put Stannis' name where Renly's belonged.  It's Renly who believes that merit matters more than birthright or birth order.  Stannis is fucking wedded to the notion of birthright. 

[Delta1212]

I think that line comes from raising Davos up, but literally other than that one act, Stannis is all about that birth.

[Terra Nova]

While the essay Windy posted upthread may or may not be shared by everyone, it actually follows pretty closely the basis of this other essay at Tower of the Hand by Steven Attewell (who also runs a blog on historical and political analysis on ASoIaF); it is possible to specify which books have you read thus far, so spoilers are non-existant (it's also very long, buy I find it fascinating):

 

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2013/06/17-hollow-crowns-deadly-thrones/

 

The abridged version on his blog (this is not totally spoiler free in the comment section, so beware):

 

https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/chapter-by-chapter-analysis-catelyn-iii-acok/

Edited December 22, 2015 by Terra Nova

[nksarmi]

shimpy - I think you are about to come upon one of the more interesting Jon chapters and I can't wait to read your thoughts.

 

I am a little surprised at your take on Tyrion so far, because book five took him out of contention as my absolute favorite character of the series (though I do have to admit, I lapped up his chapters because of the story that was unfolding around him).  I didn't really see the "whitewashing" of Tyrion's character (much) before season five, but I certainly saw it last season.  So I'm interested to see you compare/contrast of book and show Tyrion at the end of Dance.

 

Regarding Starks and warging - I got the impression from Jon's interactions with the wildlings (and I really wish the show didn't cut this stuff) that the Stark's being "blood of the first men" ties them more closely to the "magic" of the old world.  There are even those who believe the Reeds are related very closely to the Children of the Forest.  I think the idea of "The North Remembers" has a lot of meanings and one of them is related to Old Nan's stories and the stories the Reeds tell - that the North has a history and a memory that goes back further than the Targs and Maesters and old magic runs in their veins.  So I do believe the Starks carry a gene for warging and something that allows them to tap into magic in a way that other families can't. 

 

If Ned or Lyanna possessed that gene, it probably showed up no more than Robb's or Sansa's did.  But the idea that Benjen could have tapped into his magical roots at the Wall - particularly at the time of his death seems very possibly to me.  I happen to think it was the presence of the Dire Wolves (which I think the book considers a creature of legend like the unicorn or dragon) that brought out the magical warging of the Stark children to begin with.  The Starks were long associated with wolves and the Dire Wolf was their symbol, but I bet it had been awhile since a Stark had tamed one.  So for awhile the connection was probably lost and the family forgot their ability.  But the legend of the Starks and their Dire Wolves must have been there, because even Robb is accused of being one as he fights with Grey Wind.   

 

Bran is obviously special - probably because of the lost of his legs - but it's interesting that both Bran and Jon's abilities came out more as they headed North and encountered people who believed in magic, knew what they were, and told them about it.  The same could have been the case for Benjen.

[nksarmi]

After consulting wiki - its the next Jon chapter.  I really want to know if your opinion of Jon changes over the course of this book and if you think the show succeeded or failed with him.

[Terra Nova]

If Ned or Lyanna possessed that gene, it probably showed up no more than Robb's or Sansa's did.  

 

Well, Robb was clearly having wolf dreams throughout Clash and Storm, he's afraid of that (I'm not a wolf!) and as Catelyn notes he tries not to sleep when the two of them are reunited. Plus he was possibly experiencing Grey Wind's death in his own last moments. So I would put his abilities at least at some Dance-Jon level.

For Sansa there's a very flimsy evidence in the first book (Lady sensing her fear, or the other way around, and growling at Ilin Payne) and in the third (the blind hound unexpectedly defends her against Marillion) that I don't think her abilties will ever develop much further.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Autarch]

About Coldhand's eyes, the possibility that Benjen might've warged a wight could make sense. We know it's blue eyes for the Others, so black eyes then would be for some Crow/Night's Watchman. Given his behavior and outfit, it's certainly fits.

 

It's also possible Coldhands doesn't even remember who he is, like Beric didn't. And he's really the same way when you look at it: dead guy comes back to life knowing only how to continue carrying on mission. For Beric it was the mission Ned gave him; for Coldhands it's the duty of a ranger of the Watch.

 

Gods help us if Stannis is ever wighted, losing the rest of his personality while retaining the single-minded determination to punish usurpers.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Autarch

[Delta1212]

About Coldhand's eyes, the possibility that Benjen might've warged a wight could make sense. We know it's blue eyes for the Others, so black eyes then would be for some Crow/Night's Watchman. Given his behavior and outfit, it's certainly fits.

It's also possible Coldhands doesn't even remember who he is, like Beric didn't. And he's really the same way when you look at it: dead guy comes back to life knowing only how to continue carrying on mission. For Beric it was the mission Ned gave him; for Coldhands it's the duty of a ranger of the Watch.

Gods help us if Stannis is ever wighted, losing the rest of his personality while retaining the single-minded determination to punish usurpers.

So he'd come back pretty much intact then.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I'll save my opinions on Coldhands for later in the book. I think it is rather obvious. Not for Shimpy:

He is a wight being controlled by Bloodraven. There is nothing that suggests that he is being controlled by Benjen.

 

[stillshimpy]

Sure thing, nksarmi, I'll be glad to contrast book and show Tyrion at the end of the book.  Please keep in mind though, I'm one of the few people that isn't overly fond of show Tyrion.  I don't pointedly dislike him, but I don't necessarily see the appeal of the character either.  In the show he does suffer from some of the same things that book Tyrion does, but without the evidence on the page to back it up.  When he tells Shae that he won't go to ...it might be Pentos or it might be Volantis (or it might have been the more generic Free Cities, I don't recall) he tells her that he likes being The Hand, that he's good at it. 

 

That's something the book backs up a LOT more than the show does.  The show really fixated on the romance with Shae, and I understand why now: she's the Tysha stand-in, but it didn't work well in the show for me.  I personally think prostitution should be legalized so that people engaging in it -- because it's never going to go away entirely -- have safety and protection of their person and their health under the law.  I'm outlining that, because I'm no fluttery Puritan about prostitution.  I think it's sad that people are reduced to selling their person, but I don't think it makes them vile.  

 

But here's the thing: Shae is a prostitute and apparently she can't think of anything worse, given what she was always, always bellowing at Tyrion.  "I'm just your whore!"  Holy shit, if you feel that way about your profession, take Varys offered bags of jewels and ship off for the sunnier shores of Anywhere Else But There and become a butcher, baker, candlestick maker or anything else that isn't a prostitute.   That was what was so frustrating about Shae's yodeling like a deranged mountain climber every time every time she was evenly mildly irked by Tyrion...or weirdly pissed off that he'd married Sansa...no one was forcing her into that role and she had an out.  

 

So between that and then Tryion's "I'm good at this" ...well, he wasn't terrible at it, but there actually wasn't a lot to back up Varys "We're all alive because of you!"  he made one speech to a group of maybe two dozen dudes that could hear him.  Not exactly the St. Crispin's Day speech either.  More like a mid-level management mission statement of a speech.  What a novel notion:  In times of war, kill the enemy.  

 

Whenever anyone talks about the whitewashing of Tyrion, I get now what they're saying, but Show Tyrion is not exactly some wonderful dude who is fascinating.  He whines a lot, but the show removes people being cruel to him because of his stature.  Calling someone an Imp is hardly the biggest burn ever.  The only time it was highly apparent was when Tywin made the waddling comment and that was like a body blow in terms of hearing it. 

 

So anyway, part of what is going on is that Show Tyrion bored the snot of me a lot of the time.  Now that Book Tyrion doesn't have Shae's breasts and vaginal canal to obsess over, he's a lot more interesting.  That's all.  Not more likable, just less "Oh stop moaning about your lot in life and how you had to marry the beautiful young girl, as you spend your families gold and trade on your families name." 

 

Interestingly, I started to not like Tyrion very much during that gross speech at the Vale.  Dinklage really did have fun with the nastier side of Tryion as he practically danced a jig at getting the only person of any merit at the Vale killed by Bronn.  Now it was life or death, so that doesn't make him an ass, but that's not exactly saintly behavior.  Lest it need be said, neither is jerking off into soup.  Ugh.  

 

Okay, so Jon's most recent is behind me now and first up season five

Mance Rayder's death on the show and in the book are vastly different things.   That Jon orders multiple arrows to be fired into Mance is yet another area where the book shows the honor of the men of the Wall and the Show takes a pass on depicting it.  That's something that just goes on and on here though.

 

Jon sending away all of his friends sets the stage for things to come and again season five

show Jon seems sort of almost pathetically trusting for not understanding that the loyalty and love he feels for these guys is not shared.  In the show, they did set it up to be a shock that they've murdered him...but it's only because of the "rug out from underneath your feet" delivery with the Benjen fake out.  Other than that, it's kind of clear that these guys can't be trusted.  Show Jon seems very wet-behind-the-ears for believing that these men worthy of that kind of trust.

 

So Jon talking to Bowen Marsh and the whole pantomime with the Wildlings being forced to ape bending the literal knee, it's clear where that is all heading, but the key thing is that Jon isn't blind to that.  He's the one sussing it out.  He's the one making note of how it's meaningless and you can't buy actually loyalty with a bowl of onion soup for starving people.  What you can buy with a bowl of onion soup is people willing to go through meaningless motion to get their starving bodies towards sustenance.   

 

I thought the book took Mance's terror at the flames a little bit too far.  I thought he would actually attempt to die bravely and simply not be able to keep up the brave front.  But that he's practically jibbering in terror beforehand did not actually move me as much as make me say "What the fuck?"  because let's be clear ...being afraid of being burned to death is human...but plenty of people throughout history have been put to the torch and whereas everyone screams, I didn't quite believe that Mance Rayder, as depicted in the books, would be that fully reduced to terror.  

 

Season five

that is the only area in this storyline so far that I thought the show improved upon with Mance.  I more fully believed in Ciarian Hind's darkly comedic "that's a bad way to go" horror by attempt at reserve.  Also, in the show, he isn't being killed as a deserter.   He's asked to bend ye olde knee, refuses and even Stannis seems to not take any actual pleasure out of killing him.

 

More than anything the choices the show made vs. the story in the book made depicting the story well almost impossible.  

 

More on that later, as I've run out of time for the moment.  

 

ETA: Guys this kind of stuff is turning into a problem for me:  

 

 

 

I'll save my opinions on Coldhands for later in the book. I think it is rather obvious.

 

When you guys keep arguing about something that there isn't anything in the text to support, you start making it really obvious what's going to happen and what's not going happen.  You all did with Jeyne Westerling too. You argued so far beyond the point of anything that I had encountered in the text that it was clear that you were arguing the entire plot vs. what was currently on the page.  

 

Would you please stop?  It is actually starting to ruin the book. You've already gone to such lengths to dissuade me that Coldhands could be Benjen Stark that it becomes pointless to invest in the story for me.  Even if you have solid proof that I'm wrong on something, please try to keep it under your hats until such time as I'm done with this actual book. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Well, now that you added that to the end of your post I can't just leave standing my expression of non-specific amusement, so I'll go back to patiently waiting for you to continue and get into the chapters I have more to say about.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

Dude, just put it under spoiler tags stating that it isn't for me and you can still say whatever you want. 

[Delta1212]

Dude, just put it under spoiler tags stating that it isn't for me and you can still say whatever you want.

It wasn't that I wanted to say something that you shouldn't see. It was just that a mild chuckle in response to your post feels less appropriate coming immediately after the new end to your post. That was all.

If I'm only posting for effect and the effect is gone, well, there goes the post. Wasn't complaining, just wasn't sure what to replace it with, really.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

Please don't take it that way, Delta.  I am all for laughter and chuckling, even when it's at whatever daft notion I'm following down a rabbit hole of my own making.  Please feel free to have a gang giggle at my expense, together, in groups...with snacks and horns if appropriate.  

 

Just cover up the stuff that let's me know that for a lit bit longer, because you know, it isn't like I don't pick up on it.  It doesn't offend me at all, I wouldn't be doing this if it does. 

 

It does, however, inform me. 

 

So as  a for instance this tells me stuff:  

 

Ha!! I'm thigh slapping over here.  Can't say anything for a bit until she's done, but hoo doggies, from space anyone could spot

that Rosebud is a sled

 

 

That entire thing needs to be under spoiler tags, or else I'll know "Okey dokey, so my theory that Rosebud is actually the evil twin of Petunia and the Spouse of Pansy is clearly wrong...seeing as I just said that and apparently that's really funny." 

Edited December 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Also, I do understand why it's happening: We're into material that isn't on the show in a lot of these instances.  In some places the show and the books diverge so much that there are entire stories that aren't in the show.  

 

nksmari, that's part of why Tyrion's stuff is so intriguing to me: It's a story I haven't been told before.   In some of this stuff season five

the book is fleshing out the skeletal plot structure the show featured, in others, as with Tryion who didn't just whine his way into a brothel and almost announce that he was Tryion Lannister, after chafing Varys ass like a hyperactive toddler hopped up on gumdrops. Instead, Tyrion is proceeding purposefully, even if he's haunted by all that has happened.  He's presented with a potential adversary in the form of Griff...who I can't figure out how that guy is supposed to be, but I feel like maybe I should know him.

Edited December 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

On the Starks being skinchangers: I believe Sansa and Robb are/were both also skinchangers, but I think Sansa's skinchanging powers were stunted by the loss of Lady. Now, I know other skinchangers don't seem to need any particular animal to activate their powers (although it seems that they do have individual preferences) but given how closely bonded the Stark kids are to their wolves, I think that this might be the case for them. I think the direwolves are catalysts to the Starks' skinchanging powers. I'm going to spoiler tag what GRRM supposedly said on this topic:

I believe that George did say that all of the Stark children were/are skinchangers.

[Terra Nova]

In my humble opinion it's getting difficult for us to restrain also because we are almost at the end of the published material and some of these topics are still 'fresh' ^^ like that Stannis exchange few pages ago about his fate in books vs. show. In some cases we are not better informed than you, so it's easier to engage into spoilery discussion without even noticing.

For previous books, some of the theories have been proved or disproved ten years ago by now, so we readers are pretty dispassionate about them. As for poor Jeyne Westerling (while I never considered her to be involved in the ensnaring of Robb, not even in Storm), I think most of us felt pretty strongly for one of the few decent persons to be (not wrongly ;) ) suspected of something so vile ^^' there are so few of them in the book to begin with, and even fewer in the series.

[Delta1212]

Also, I think one of the hardest spoilers to avoid is the spoiler that nothing happens. It's easier to not reveal that something specific happens than to avoid revealing that something that never happens doesn't happen, even implicitly.

So while I think a lot of people's opinions of Jeyne were based on things you had already read, and therefore felt safe to discuss, the fact that everyone agreed on the same perspective so strongly after having read all five books is a pretty good indicator that maybe there isn't going to be a shocking reveal at the end of book 3 that she was a conspirator all along, which is its own kind of spoiler.

Sometimes I try to talk about things from the perspective I had at the time, but realistically you can't forget what you know, and the person you are talking to certainly isn't going to forget that you know things in forming their opinion of your opinion. It's a very fine line to walk if you want to have any kind of on-going discussion and the fact that it's so hard to stay balanced on that line is why the Unsullied thread existed in the first place.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Delta1212

[Terra Nova]

Exactly, and another problem for Dance will be: as in Feast, some POVs have very few chapters, and in some case their last one will come abruptly; what to do with comments and discussion? Because Shimpy may well expect some more before the end of the book, and I don't think we should just come up and say "nope, that's the last we'll ever see of him/her/it"

I think the best would be for us to wait for the end of the book for some final thought on each character...

[stillshimpy]

In my humble opinion it's getting difficult for us to restrain also because we are almost at the end of the published material and some of these topics are still 'fresh' ^^ like that Stannis exchange few pages ago about his fate in books vs. show. In some cases we are not better informed than you, so it's easier to engage into spoilery discussion without even noticing.

 

And I totally get that, but if you all can hang on for another 900 pages, then we can all argue spiritedly together because we'll all be on the same page with it.  But maybe leave debating that I shouldn't think things until I'm done, because I know it's not malicious but it does actually tell me a lot of what will and won't happen.  Then...oh my goodness....we can all laugh at all the shit I got wrong, wrong the opposite of right.  Play through with laughing even now.   It's just it will clue me in if you make too big a deal out of it.  

 

Gods and monsters know, I'm no stranger to being wrong.  Multiple times a day in real life and you know, I'm the human equivalent of a terrier.  I will not budge on stuff until I have more information.  The only thing that makes that a bearable trait  for others in my online and offline life is that when I'm wrong, I will admit it up, down, sideways and inside out.  Sometimes with lyrics and emphatic gestures.  There might be sock puppets. 

 

But for about 900 pages more...just let me be wrong even if you know i am...because you're telling me stuff when you argue that much that I am.  The second I scroll the last page of this book?  Have at! Throw every fan theory at my head until I cry Nuncle.  

Edited December 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

Not for shimpy's eyes:

is anyone planning to introduce shimpy to lemongate, after she's completed the book?

[Autarch]

Not for shimpy's eyes:

is anyone planning to introduce shimpy to lemongate, after she's completed the book?

I have no idea what that is. *Looks it up* Oh that. Well, it's certainly an interesting theory, though I'd think it would be a tad too far-fetched if she was actually in Dorne the whole time.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Autarch

[WindyNights]

Yeah, that Stannis statement isn't just an opinion, it's demonstrably wrong. So wrong that I initially assumed that the writer had just had a moment of name confusion and put Stannis' name where Renly's belonged. It's Renly who believes that merit matters more than birthright or birth order. Stannis is fucking wedded to the notion of birthright.

I think the idea is that Stannis isn't against having a smuggler as his Hand and lead his armies. And that he values the opinions of Davos, an up jumped smuggler, and even Melisandre, who isnt a noble either, over his lords and in laws.

I don't think Renly thinks merit matters more than birthright when it comes to himself.

Master Cressen observed that Renly as a boy was an attention-seeker and that now he's doing the same thing with a crown.

I do think the analysis was a little too harsh on Renly though. I more wanted to show the differences between book and show in season 2 which did paint Stannis in a more villainous tone and Renly in a much more heroic light.

[bobbybuilderton]

I look forward to shimpy's reaction upon finding out that mance's over the top reaction doesn't feel like something mance would do for a very good reason. It's the sort of thing where if you're paying attention you can't say George pulls something out of nowhere.