Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Mya Stone]

I am one of those Blackfish fans who was rather pissed at his exclusion in Season 1.

 

I feel like we got short-changed on his characterization. Although I understand why they kept him off screen until we went to Riverrun. I would have preferred his intro to be kept as we see in the books. It helps to soften Cat (although, realistically, as you've noted, Show!Cat is decidedly not Book!Cat)...as well as other things, which I won't get into as you haven't finished the book yet. ;) 

 

ETA: I love the actor who is playing him. It was excellent casting, IMO. I just feel that the Tullys have all gotten the short end of the stick. 

[Protar]

Well what happened is they couldn't get the Greatjon actor back for Season 2. So Blackfish is really more the Greatjon in the show.

 

ETA: I can see their reasoning for holding off on him until he needed to be introduced, but in hindsight I do think it would have been better to introduce him in S1, when there were fewer characters to keep track of. As it is I feel the Tully's got rather lost being introduced a third of the way into S3 and not appearing in Season's 4 or 5. 

Edited June 24, 2015 by Protar

[stillshimpy]

Well what happened is they couldn't get the Greatjon actor back for Season 2. So Blackfish is really more the Greatjon in the show.

 

I'm with Mya in thinking that the Tullys have gotten short shrift on the series, based on what I've seen so far in the books, but that is really interesting to know, because I almost commented earlier that Blackfish reminded me of "Yer meat's tough enough!" guy ....who I think is the guy you're talking about, right?  The guy who had two fingers off and where Rickon was sent to hide?  The Umbers?  

[Protar]

I'm with Mya in thinking that the Tullys have gotten short shrift on the series, based on what I've seen so far in the books, but that is really interesting to know, because I almost commented earlier that Blackfish reminded me of "Yer meat's tough enough!" guy ....who I think is the guy you're talking about, right?  The guy who had two fingers off and where Rickon was sent to hide?  The Umbers?  

 

That's the one. And it's a real shame they couldn't get the actor back because he was one of the highlights of season 1.

[Delta1212]

Yep. That's the guy I kept confusing with Theon Greyjoy while reading the first book.

What?

[magdalene]

Ach, I get depressed reading this thread thinking about all the great and important stuff they cut from the source material for the show, and all the questionable shit they added instead.  The Blackfish is just one example. 

[nksarmi]

First, i am loving this thread because i dont want to reread so i can live vicarously through you. But reading your comments on the direwolves reminds me again how poorly they have been used on the show. I cant wait to hear what you think of their inclusion later.

[benteen]

With his portrayal on the show, I wish they hadn't brought the Blackfish at all.   I always considered him a noble knight who did things his own way.  But on the show, they portrayed him as a crude thug.

[ebevan91]

With his portrayal on the show, I wish they hadn't brought the Blackfish at all.   I always considered him a noble knight who did things his own way.  But on the show, they portrayed him as a crude thug.

He was an ass to Edmure during the funeral for Hoster.

[benteen]

He was an ass to Edmure during the funeral for Hoster.

 

That too.  He never would have treated his nephew like that.  He was SYMPATHETIC to him in the original book scene.

[stillshimpy]

He never would have treated his nephew like that.  He was SYMPATHETIC to him in the original book scene.

 

That's actually good to know, because in the series I was really torn between two impulses:  "How utterly and completely useless is Edmure supposed to be, that it's played for grins that someone is mocking him for an inability to set fire to his father's corpse?!?"  I was wondering if Edmure was like the Tully version of Joffrey or what, since we had such an open invitation to hate him. 

 

Because if Edmure isn't worthy of derision in all other circumstance -- known to be and accepted as the family ne'er do well and figure of fun and mockery -- there's actually not a truckload of shame in being able to land the arrow that will set your dad's corpse afire.  That's actually something one would assume was brought about by strength of emotion rather than incompetence at life.  

 

Just saying, I wasn't sure who was supposed to be the utter jackass in that scene and sort of wondered if it wasn't a case of "both" , so when book Brynden/Blackfish showed up and was one of the characters who was instantly lovable vs. irascible in an amusing way, I was a little uncertain as to how to react.  

 

So the character that I've noticed is missing from everything in the book is actually Lancel Lannister and then also Roz.  Roz is a created character, or borrowed from later in the book series , right?  She was in an invented scene for Tyrion, she's a huge focus in one of the worst-written scenes that just CAN'T be from these books due to the structure...what...Petyr will have a POV chapter at the end where he randomly blurts out his backstory to people auditioning for the role of prostitute?  

 

Are they both characters borrowed from later, because Lancel is chiefly featured in exposition or the "show the folks at home what they've won, Bob" type of scenes (listens to Robert rage about war and then hustles forth with wineskin of doom) , so he can't really be for real given the chapter structure either.  

Edited June 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Lancel actually did get name-checked in the "breast-plate stretcher" scene, I noticed. There were two Lannister squires, but I don't think the other one got a name.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Delta1212

[Dev F]

That too.  He never would have treated his nephew like that.  He was SYMPATHETIC to him in the original book scene.

 

But in the show it wouldn't have made much sense the Blackfish to go from being really patient and sympathetic with Edmure at his dad's funeral, and then really pissed at him in the very next scene for screwing up Robb's battle plans. I much prefer when the writers sensibly reimagine a book scene so that it makes sense according to the adjusted context of the TV series, than when they try desperately to retain the exact beats of a favorite scene even when the story surrounding it has been changed enough that the original beats no longer ring true.

[magdalene]

Shimpy, Lancel is a books character, though another of these characters where the show version is quite different.  Roz is not a books character.  If I remember correctly Roz was this wet dreams character invented by the show runners. There was this burlesque actress who was an extra in one of the brothel scenes and the show runners liked her so much that they gave her a lot of airtime, only to eventually brutally kill her character off.  There was a lot of grumbles about Roz  from books readers.  She is an example of what happens when Benioff and Weiss invent characters for the show often leading to dubious results. 

 

I hope you don't mind the info about Roz since you had already guessed correctly about her.

Edited June 25, 2015 by magdalene

[Protar]

Ye, Ros is invented. Ostensibly she is there to act as a composite character for the various prostitutes in the books. But that really isn't true because Shae is the only prostitute character in a game of thrones with a sizeable role. And the show casts loads of prostitutes anyway. Really she's there because a.) she provides a thread throughout the infamous "sexposition" scenes and b.) because...D+D thought Esme Bianco (Ros' actor) was hot. Which they practically admitted IIRC (although IIRC they more said they thought that she was "charming" or something.). And then she wanted more screen time and a more serious role in the plot so they wasted some time on that, and then she got killed off. There were some unpleasant rumours that this was "revenge" for her not wanting to act in any more nude scenes. But honestly I think it's more likely that they didn't want to spend loads of time inventing a new plot line to keep Bianco happy.

 

I really disliked Ros' inclusion in the series. Although I'll have to be honest Esme Bianco did bring a lot of charm to the role. She did good with what she was given and by Season 3 she had become quite iconic and familiar in her own, fan servicey way. 

[Lady S.]

With his portrayal on the show, I wish they hadn't brought the Blackfish at all.   I always considered him a noble knight who did things his own way.  But on the show, they portrayed him as a crude thug.

What bothered me more was his threatening Edmure to get him to agree to the Red Wedding, even without the show spelling out his backstory of his own refusal of an arranged marriage, he's still a bachelor without much room to talk there.

 

I am one of those Blackfish fans who was rather pissed at his exclusion in Season 1.

 

I feel like we got short-changed on his characterization. Although I understand why they kept him off screen until we went to Riverrun. I would have preferred his intro to be kept as we see in the books. It helps to soften Cat (although, realistically, as you've noted, Show!Cat is decidedly not Book!Cat)...as well as other things, which I won't get into as you haven't finished the book yet. ;) 

 

ETA: I love the actor who is playing him. It was excellent casting, IMO. I just feel that the Tullys have all gotten the short end of the stick.

Yes, it was one thing if they were just delaying his intro til s2, but he and Edmure both not showing up until s3 was too much. And I noticed it caused some confusion among non-readers about Robb being their king since the Tullys and their bannermen weren't even mentioned in s2. Mance Rayder got namedropped multiple times before we met him and then he only appeared in 5 eps, but not one word about Cat's family after she left Lysa in s1. And if the Greatjon wasn't available, Robb needed someone loyal at his side instead of making it look like Roose Bolton and Rickard Karstark were suddenly all he had left.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Lady S.

[Lavignac]

So the character that I've noticed is missing from everything in the book is actually Lancel Lannister and then also Roz.  Roz is a created character, or borrowed from later in the book series , right?  She was in an invented scene for Tyrion, she's a huge focus in one of the worst-written scenes that just CAN'T be from these books due to the structure...what...Petyr will have a POV chapter at the end where he randomly blurts out his backstory to people auditioning for the role of prostitute?  

 

Are they both characters borrowed from later, because Lancel is chiefly featured in exposition or the "show the folks at home what they've won, Bob" type of scenes (listens to Robert rage about war and then hustles forth with wineskin of doom) , so he can't really be for real given the chapter structure either.  

The Sexposition is an example of a crutch used for the TV adaptation to replace inner monologues in the POV chapters... Notably, Littlefinger and Varys are MUCH more transparent in their plans onscreen than on page. But the problem is that method is still Tell, don't Show, which makes it not that good an adaptation choice. However thy did many other instances of Show rather than Tell, and that is great time-saving working adaptation choices.

 

Escaping the POV structure made the show give us some of the touching Robert Cersei and Robert Jaime explorations, as well as some fun Littlefinger-Varys banter. But the subtlety of the POVs is fascinating, especially when you end up analyzing that some narrators are ill-informed, lack focus on some points that would fascinate us, or are actually delusional.

[Haleth]

So the character that I've noticed is missing from everything in the book is actually Lancel Lannister and then also Roz.  Roz is a created character, or borrowed from later in the book series , right?  She was in an invented scene for Tyrion, she's a huge focus in one of the worst-written scenes that just CAN'T be from these books due to the structure...what...Petyr will have a POV chapter at the end where he randomly blurts out his backstory to people auditioning for the role of prostitute?  

Yep.  That's one of the things we've been waiting for you to discover, that Roz isn't a book character.  

[benteen]

On the subject of Edmure, he might not be the best choice to be a ruling lord but he does something in ACOK's that shows he's much more worthy to be one than most in my opinion.

[stillshimpy]

Ye, Ros is invented. Ostensibly she is there to act as a composite character for the various prostitutes in the books. But that really isn't true because Shae is the only prostitute character in a game of thrones with a sizeable role. And the show casts loads of prostitutes anyway. Really she's there because a.) she provides a thread throughout the infamous "sexposition" scenes and b.) because...D+D thought Esme Bianco (Ros' actor) was hot.

 

Well, none of that entirely shocks me.  She was in too many exposition scenes to not start tracking as a composite character, but I assumed that SHE was the character from elsewhere in the story and they just super imposed her into elucidating materials.  

 

I personally think she's lovely and actually did good work with what she was given.  Somewhere in the closets of the internet exists reactions to that first Sexposition scene with Petry and yeah, that was always -- pretty damned clearly -- going to have been a screen from a script, not from a book.  It was ridiculous in the true "worthy of ridicule" sense, but I wouldn't have guessed she's just wholly created.  She has a hand in several plots and then she's  a window into the twisted nature of Joffrey.   

So I think as a device she actually worked pretty well, except for that damned scene where I think almost anyone who knows anything about acting just felt freaking sorry for everyone involved.   Aiden Gillen is a good actor, but no one's talent would have been equal to pulling that shit off.  So I had already figured out she was featured in at least two scenes that were inventions...the opening scene with Tyrion and then the sexposition scene with Littlefinger.   Same deal with the Pycelle scene.  

I know stuff always gets bandied about in terms of rumors, and maybe my opinion will change as I read more, but it surprises me that she's entirely invented.  I assumed she was borrowed from other parts, because a lot of her scenes are windows into other characters.  Theon, Pycelle (that was a great scene) , the other scene with Littlefinger where she can't stop crying about the slaughtered children and Littlefinger lets her know what happens to women in his employ who cry is incredibly good acting all around and actually makes up for (sort of...) that terrible scene in the first season.  Her terror was palpable and that was the first time Littlefinger genuinely just scared the hell out of me.   

I don't know what the truth of her tenure on the show is, or isn't, but they actually gave her some good and really difficult material at different points and she delivered.  I hope her career continued to grow from that.  Plus, on this show, the more empowered a woman is, the less likely you are to see that woman naked.  You guys will know all the behind the scenes stuff that I've avoided for years, but from a remove, just judging from the increasing quality of the stuff they gave her to do?  I don't think it's very likely that things went south.  They gave her scenes that displayed a full range of emotion, including writing in funny scenes.  So I don't know, just from a completely "I don't even know the names of the people you're referring to....I had to ask Mya who D&D were...." perspective, it comes off more like they wrote her one hell of a good body of work for audition reels.  

 

Plus, there's a shot of her on the docks where they took the trouble to light her so well she's breathtaking.  I remember watching that scene with my husband telling him "Holy crap, she's beautiful"  and I do know enough about filming, lighting, etc. etc. to know that doesn't actually happen by accident.   So just at a guess, they all parted friends.   I could just be dead wrong and she wrecked someone's marriage and somebody else made a poppet for pins for her that they are still skewering to this day.  The only trouble with Roz's character is that after a certain point, she is clearly a device.  A boom of mic of sorts into a person's mind.  

 

I have far fewer thoughts on Lancel because there's a lot of plot in this past season relies on him and I'm a little stymied... I'm going to ask that no one tell me for sure, please...but I'm sitting here swearing over the idea that that damned Sparrow plot was entirely invented.  Admittedly, it doesn't need to have been, they could have been using Lancel as a character to tie threads together and a lot of that "Cersei, I've confessed my sins to the High Sparrow about how we did the deed and did in the King....nothing could go wrong for you with any of that...I'm sure" stuff only makes an iota of sense from Cersei's "Hi, High Sparrow, I'm going to make use of you....completely ignoring the fact that I already know you know I've committed incest and regicide...nothing could go wrong with that for me..."  so if he was being used in that sort of "Roz, clearly a character who shows up in expository scenes" capacity, that actually improves that plot.  

 

And it's just dawned on me why anyone would mind that they added in Roz, because that left me confused for a moment, the actress is lovely and did a good job....and stopped being used to fill the peep show requirements that HBO seems to have....and that almost made an audible click:  They've left out a fair few characters already and some of them seem like they would have had fans -- in particular Mya Stone was the first one that was a case of "Oh I bet people were pissed..." and then again, Blackfish showing up a lot earlier and essentially being a different character must have gone over like poison in a wine shop.  

 

Okay, that makes sense.  It's clear I actually liked Roz, by the way, and after that dock scene with Sansa and Shae, where they took the trouble to light her like you do a painting you're displaying (and kind of didn't take the same trouble with the actress playing Shae)  ...I guess I assumed somebody high up in production was in love with her, or had a huge crush on her at the very least.  

 

 

 

Which they practically admitted IIRC (although IIRC they more said they thought that she was "charming" or something.).

 

After a certain point, they'd have no choice to admit that, because it's obvious even if she's in the darned books.  They went from featuring her as bawdy to being delicately beautiful and sensitively kind.   However, Ron Moore and David Eich have always copped to the fact that when they cast Tricia Helfer in Battlestar Galactica, they had no idea she could act.  It was an aesthetic decision, because they need a woman who looked so perfect, you could believe she was created vs. born.  It was only when they saw the finished product from the mini that they realized, "Holy shit, that lady can act!! We should write to that, no?"  

 

But I can get why it would irk people here.  There is a LOT of setup at the Eyrie that just got excised and ends up making characters look freaking dimwitted and ineffectual as hell.  That Cat quickly learned that Lysa was putting on an act, rather than standing there silently staring in horror at the Cirque de Lunacy that is her sister is an important thing.  It did not fit with a character that had called to an entire Inn to help her arrest Tyrion Lannister.  Or who wrestled a knife-wielding assassin by grabbing the damned knife.  Having Cat stand there and stare wordlessly was not a good choice for the character, but it makes sense if she's been warned and seen evidence that her sister has parted company with her sanity.  

 

So I am of two minds.  It sounds like they made up scenes to fill time and then made decisions influenced budget...in some cases casting budget.  You know when season two ends with "Now you're going to meet the king beyond the Wall, Jon Snuh..." and we don't clap eyes on Mance Rayder for another season? Nothing says, "Okay, listen, we didn't want to pay the actor for anything more than we had to, and we hadn't actually cast the part....and spoiler, Ciaran Hinds is not actually cheap..." that's "glimpse the budget-minded decision FROM SPACE!"  or when we eventually find out the dude under the "We didn't actually cast a part or want to pay the actor" from the Going to the Wall cage" cape is Jaqen (and we actually thought there was a chance that he was Stannis...because they overplayed the "there's a figure in a hooded cape, draped so that he's man-shaped, but is so obviously an extra standing in for a paid role for next season" .  

 

Some of that stuff was obvious even to us, because it's like watching the blond in high heels, tromping out into the woods in a horror movie "Gosh, I wonder if anything bad will happen to her?" an obvious device to set up for something to come.  

 

Then there was much talk about "The Eyrie...it's unassailable. Wow, you could not take this place.  It's like a freaking fortress, I'm tellin....and we're here" that also reflected "Didn't have the money to render this place did you?"    So going into that knowing what the Eyrie was supposed to be like, knowing that they ended up shooting filler, some of it great, some of it not (Let me guess, Stomp Hunt is also filler? Nothing says "budget dictated" like a King hunting on FOOT, good lord, show) and left out stuff fans must have been looking forward to for years, I'll just bet that wholly created characters were not exactly the stuff of "Oh goody.  Thank goodness they made that choice."  

 

Board Mya, who were you hoping was going to play Mya Stone?  By the time you chose this screen name (unless you've had it elsewhere) you had to know she was a no show on the show, but I'm assuming she was always a favorite.  

 

ETA:  By the way, for all that I'm kvetching about "obvious budgetary decisions" I take it GoT actually did pretty well with the budge they had.  A terrible, terrible....it cannot be stressed enough....terrible show called Camelot, or Arthur or some such "Knights of the Round Table, Whee!" production aired on Starz after GoT's first season...actually got high enough ratings to warrant renewal, but it was so bad, the cast apparently wanted the fuck out (Joseph Fiennes dignity may never recover) so they couldn't resolve "scheduling conflicts" for the actors (which is the flashing "Wow, the cast thought this was so bad, that at least one of principal players wanted out so much they were taking a pass on a paycheck? Wow." sign of "everyone involved was fleeing something")...and it looked cheaper than hell on top of everything else.  The women were dressed in stretch velvet....no shit.  

 

And it turned out to have a higher budget than GoT per episode.  I almost fell the hell over.  I'm guessing Fiennes got.freaking.paid for that on a really impressive level and wanted out once the checks were cashed.  Since he was playing Merlin that was a problem.  Also?  I'm pretty sure they killed Lancelot in the first season, but that's lost in the haze of horror that was that show.  

Edited June 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I was going to wait until we got to that part of the book, but since you brought it up: Yeah, they've basically admitted that they ran out of money for a royal hunt, which is why it's just four guys traipsing around in the woods.

And I think you hit on the big problem a lot of people had with Roz, some of who admit it and some who don't. But a lot of people were really pissed that there was a random new character with so many scenes while their own favorite tertiary character got cut. Some of her scenes are entirely made up, some are shortcuts to getting information revealed elsewhere in the book and some are her standing in for "Random Background Whore #3" although I won't comment on which of her scenes are which. I think the choice to kill her off ultimately came down to the fact that they didn't have much to do with her anymore (since, as a "not real" character, she didn't exactly tie into any long term storyline a unless they started changing them to inude her) and also fan reaction was kind of vicious.

They defended pretty well throughout, but the comments so far in this thread are practically throwing her a parade in comparison to the way some quarters reacted to her presence. It could get pretty bad.

And yeah, there's more than a few delayed introductions (some by an episode or two like Mance and Jaqen between seasons, some by a couple seasons/books like the Blackfish) as a result of waiting to introduce a character until they were really needed so they didn't have to pay the actor for a season or two of doing not much in an already crowded cast. As I think you've probably already started to notice, a lot of characters show up or are mentioned a heck of a lot earlier in the books, but often in an offhand or passing manner that it wouldn't make much sense to cast a real actor for on the show.

[nksarmi]

You know, I came to the show first and then to the books and I think I might have gotten through two seasons of the show before I picked up the first book.  Therefore, it is sometimes hard for me to separate the early show from the books (that and they were closer than later seasons so it becomes more obvious when they are making stuff up later).  But with that said, I wonder why they didn't have more things happen off-screen that were referenced on-screen. 

 

For example, I can't remember how Cat and crew got to the top of the Eerie in the show, but I do remember the harshness of it from the books.  They could have easily had a character or two make a reference to the ridiculous feet of getting up there without showing it, but I don't think they ever did.  Am I wrong?

[Delta1212]

You know, I came to the show first and then to the books and I think I might have gotten through two seasons of the show before I picked up the first book. Therefore, it is sometimes hard for me to separate the early show from the books (that and they were closer than later seasons so it becomes more obvious when they are making stuff up later). But with that said, I wonder why they didn't have more things happen off-screen that were referenced on-screen.

For example, I can't remember how Cat and crew got to the top of the Eerie in the show, but I do remember the harshness of it from the books. They could have easily had a character or two make a reference to the ridiculous feet of getting up there without showing it, but I don't think they ever did. Am I wrong?

I mean, they did a little of that, especially with very important but extremely expensive to film stuff like battles, but ultimately I think it just comes down to the fact that a character walking on screen and saying "Boy, that was a harrowing climb that we didn't just show you" is a bit of a tease and probably more frustrating for an audience if they do that sort of thing a lot than just ignoring things altogether. It'd be nice for book readers who get the references, but for everyone else it'd, again, just come across as "Wow! That sure was an exciting and spectacular thing that just happened off screen where you couldn't see it" which isn't exactly ideal.

[Mya Stone]

shimpy,

I've had this name on Westeros since 2003. ;)

I always pictured her as a young Shannyn Sossaman with blue eyes, myself.

[Seerow]

I guess it's just difficult to watch someone be wrong and then have a few dozen people follow along and go in the wrong directions, because it stops being interesting when the direction is just too darned wrong, or too many people are talking about it.

 

Just wanted to comment on this: I find it really hard to understand that mindset. For me, the entire fun of following the unsullied was to see the random wrong directions you all would wander off into. If you guys just guessed everything right all the time, that would be boring, there would have been no point in reading at all. The whole fun of it was to see the story through a completely different perspective, a group of people who have no idea what's going on and are operating from a totally different mindset, and what that translates to in terms of predictions.

 

I'm sure there's a lot of others who read from the same perspective as me, and got more frustrated than anything not at the Unsullied going in wrong directions, but at the obvious Bookwalkers trying to lure you back onto the correct path. 

[Delta1212]

shimpy,

I've had this name on Westeros since 2003. ;)

I always pictured her as a young Shannyn Sossaman with blue eyes, myself.

And she already has a Westerosi name, so that's a plus!

[Mya Stone]

And she already has a Westerosi name, so that's a plus!

LOL...I never thought of it that way!

[stillshimpy]

I think the choice to kill her off ultimately came down to the fact that they didn't have much to do with her anymore (since, as a "not real" character, she didn't exactly tie into any long term storyline a unless they started changing them to inude her) and also fan reaction was kind of vicious.

 

Aw, that's unfortunate, because it is never the fault of the actor when that happens, but if those show runners had any experience in the fantasy or science-fiction genre, they should have known what they were setting up that poor woman to encounter from fanbases.  I'm longtime scifi fan and you know, we all love our source material and it's genre that invites loving smaller characters and wanting to know more about them, because it's a genre allows for a vivid rendering of even a bit part character.   You can write it big and have it played big.  

 

Plus, anyone who has ever been anywhere near the TV industry knows that nothing goes over like a trapdoor in a canoe like a replacement character.  It's just the nature of things. Jonas Quinn on Stargate ...oh my god....if i even start down this road, we will  never get off of it, because that's how many examples there are of "Fans don't dig the 'we got rid of this person and subbed in that character'" Bonus points for poor judgment in the "and we made it clear that someone in production was just taken with the actor"....which is fine and doesn't actually indicate anything untoward or sinister...but it does set the poor actor up to be on the receiving end of some serious backlash.  

 

Well, I hope she landed a metric ton of paying gigs from all the stuff they used her to do, but even within the story it was sort of time for her to go, unless they were going to have her marry a character to change her purpose....and that would have been about the only way to make it all worse. 

 

Whoa.  As I'm typing this the new reply alert is just going berserk.  6 new replies since I started typing?  I either said something astoundingly brilliant or astoundingly daft.  I somehow doubt it was brilliance.  Edited: Whew.  Man that startled me.  "Oh shit, what heinous thing did I just do?" turned out to be...nothing.  Thank the lord.  

Edited June 25, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Triskan]

Quick question regarding Mya Stone - the character, not our amazing mod here - (yeah, I'm a book-walker, but it's about a tiny detail I dont remember and I dont have time to skip through the book right now) :

do we know who her father is at the point shimpy is in the books ? 

 

Anyway, I cant wait till you get to the next books shimpy ! I so want to urge you to read faster, but I understand (and have read) your arguments on this front so I wont say so ! (And that would be a rude thing to do ! ^^)

 

And, going back a few pages, to answer the questions of which characters grew on me over the course of the story, I'd say : Stannis, Jaime, Sansa, Roose, Melisandre and A... erm, I mean Yara. 

 

In the show, I'd say Liam Cunnigham's Davos is miles ahead of his book counterpart. I was never particularly a fan of Davos (didnt mean I didnt like him, but I was more interested in the people around him in the books), but thanks to Liam, he's one of my favourite characters.

 

Since I've always been a fan of underdogs, tormented and flawed characters, Theon, Shireen and Sam have always been among my favourites characters and I loved seing those three evolve through the story.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Triskan

[Mya Stone]

Triskan...

I think it can safely be deduced but it's not explicitly said.

[Delta1212]

Just wanted to comment on this: I find it really hard to understand that mindset. For me, the entire fun of following the unsullied was to see the random wrong directions you all would wander off into. If you guys just guessed everything right all the time, that would be boring, there would have been no point in reading at all. The whole fun of it was to see the story through a completely different perspective, a group of people who have no idea what's going on and are operating from a totally different mindset, and what that translates to in terms of predictions.

I'm sure there's a lot of others who read from the same perspective as me, and got more frustrated than anything not at the Unsullied going in wrong directions, but at the obvious Bookwalkers trying to lure you back onto the correct path.

Ding ding ding! I mean, I also found it fun when you guys wandered down the right path, and actually it was a little frustrating sometimes when you'd go down the right path but then walk right past the next turn you needed to make without noticing it, but in a "No what are you doing, blonde in high heels who is wandering into the woods at night!" kind of way, so the fun sort of frustrating rather than the frustrating kind of frustrating.

When a bookwalker would show up and try to nudge you in the right direction, it was like an audience member jumping into the movie and explaining the plot to the characters. Yeah, you're kind of rooting for them to go down the right path, but the fun is in watching them (you) struggle to find that path and seeing which wrong paths get taken on the way there.

Nobody goes to see a movie or watches a TV show where everyone always gets everything right all the time and nobody makes any mistakes, because that's incredibly dull. Ditto for reading the Spitbsll Wall.

[Delta1212]

Aw, that's unfortunate, because it is never the fault of the actor when that happens, but if those show runners had any experience in the fantasy or science-fiction genre, they should have known what they were setting up that poor woman to encounter from fanbases. I'm longtime scifi fan and you know, we all love our source material and it's genre that invites loving smaller characters and wanting to know more about them, because it's a genre allows for a vivid rendering of even a bit part character. You can write it big and have it played big.

Plus, anyone who has ever been anywhere near the TV industry knows that nothing goes over like a trapdoor in a canoe like a replacement character. It's just the nature of things. Jonas Quinn on Stargate ...oh my god....if i even start down this road, we will never get off of it, because that's how many examples there are of "Fans don't dig the 'we got rid of this person and subbed in that character'" Bonus points for poor judgment in the "and we made it clear that someone in production was just taken with the actor"....which is fine and doesn't actually indicate anything untoward or sinister...but it does set the poor actor up to be on the receiving end of some serious backlash.

Well, I hope she landed a metric ton of paying gigs from all the stuff they used her to do, but even within the story it was sort of time for her to go, unless they were going to have her marry a character to change her purpose....and that would have been about the only way to make it all worse.

Whoa. As I'm typing this the new reply alert is just going berserk. 6 new replies since I started typing? I either said something astoundingly brilliant or astoundingly daft. I somehow doubt it was brilliance. Edited: Whew. Man that startled me. "Oh shit, what heinous thing did I just do?" turned out to be...nothing. Thank the lord.

Well, about "any experience with scifi" and "working in TV." David Benioff had a couple of screen-writing credits on some movies, but this show is both of D&D's first time working in television in any capacity.

Heh.

[Avaleigh]

My biggest issue with Roz was the Littlefinger brothel scene because it came across as insulting to me. Like I'm not going to pay attention to what this guy has to say unless they throw in a bit of girl on girl action. The scene was also ridiculously long. It was one long eye roll from start to finish and I remember being embarrassed at the time because I'd turned two Unsullied on to the show then and I was watching with one (who ultimately ended up becoming a book reader) and I couldn't help but go into a mini rant about how scenes like this seem like they're just trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator.  

 

At the same time the sexposition with Viserys and Doreah didn't irritate me in the way that the above scene with Roz did and I can't really say what the difference is exactly since both scenes were long and ultimately unnecessary, but I guess to me the Viserys/Doreah scene didn't feel as desperate. I also think that I found it more believable for Viserys to talk to this girl about his heritage since it's such a big deal to him over LF telling two prostitutes that he's a man with grand plans as if we couldn't start to piece that together based on other scenes. 

 

I didn't hate the character of Roz though and definitely felt sad for her after seeing what Joffrey had done.

 

Shimpy, I'm curious to know your thoughts about show!Joffrey vs book!Joffrey as the story progresses and which one works better for you.  Also, Shimpy, going by your knowledge of future seasons are there any places/lands/castles in the world that you're interested in finally getting a description of after seeing or hearing about them on the show? 

 

For me with the first season I really looked forward to seeing what the Eyrie would look like onscreen. I was even more interested in that than seeing Winterfell. 

 

I still like the two scenes where Cersei mentions the black haired baby she had with Robert. It worked for me I only wish that the prophecy on the show had mentioned her having four children. It seems like all of Robert's kids were included even that baby Barra who gets killed in the brothel so this isn't an issue of only counting kids who lived to be a certain age. Things like this come across as sloppy to me.

[unworried well]

Delta1212:

 

David Benioff had a couple of screen-writing credits on some movies, but this show is both of D&D's first time working in television in any capacity.

 

 

Yeah, 'Troy' being one of them. If I had known that, I probably wouldn't have watched The Show.

[Protar]

One of the D's worked on X-men Origins: Wolverine as well. Explains a lot.

Anyway, Ros did really frustrate me. They spent so much time on her. I'm looking over at the old Westeros.org threads now where one intrepid viewer recorded the screen time for each character, and in season two she had only a few seconds less screen time than Margaery, and more than Loras, A...Yara, Balon and Roose Bolton. They could have done so much more if she hadn't existed.

 

I have nothing against Esme Bianco. I think she did great with what she was given and I wish her all the best. I rather feel sorry for her that that was her lot - to be hated by the fandom, treated like a sex object by the narrative, tacked on to random plot lines and then rather brutally disposed of. Just in general I have never been a fan of the sexposition scenes. There's a big difference between plot relevant sex and plot relevant exposition with sex tacked on, and usually Game of Thrones veered into the latter. Sometimes it makes sense, if it's a pillow talk scene, but they rarely got it to work. Viserys and Doreah was one rare example where they did. Oddly they've gotten a bit better at not using sexposition, while getting worse at everything else. I almost look back at Ros and the Sexposition scenes with fondness, because I associate them with watching the otherwise super faithful season 1 at Christmas. 

Edited June 25, 2015 by Protar

[Delta1212]

Ros and the Sexposition Scenes would make a good band name. Just throwing that out there.

[Protar]

Sadly it doesn't look like Bianco's career sky rocketed after Thrones. She's been in a couple of TV movies no one's heard off but that's about it. That's often the way of it to be honest. An actor gets a decent sized TV role, but for some reason their agent doesn't get on the case and capitalise on it, maybe they're type-cast and that's the end of their career. Pretty sad. 

[Dev F]

Aw, that's unfortunate, because it is never the fault of the actor when that happens, but if those show runners had any experience in the fantasy or science-fiction genre, they should have known what they were setting up that poor woman to encounter from fanbases.  

 

I actually think the writers were doing a pretty good job of transforming Ros from a porny Exposition Fairy into a real character who might've had a very significant impact on the story. They did a good job, as Delta1212 pointed out, of swapping her in for various background players -- and by her final season, as we saw her allying with Varys against Littlefinger, some of us suspected that she was being set up to play a very significant role in events that were still to come, taking over for another minor book character whom the show hadn't really used at all.

 

Then she was unceremoniously dispatched, and the big story went forward rather awkwardly with the original character. I still suspect that the writers were originally planning to use Ros in that character's place, but decided at the last minute to kill her off to give more punch to Littlefinger's departure from King's Landing, knowing that he and Varys wouldn't be sharing scenes again for quite a while and wanting to put final exclamation point on their snarky rivalry.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Dev F

[Protar]

I actually think the writers were doing a pretty good job of transforming Ros from a porny Exposition Fairy into a real character who might've had a very significant impact on the story. They did a good job, as Delta1212 pointed out, of swapping her in for various background players -- and by her final season, as we saw her allying with Varys against Littlefinger, some of us suspected that she was being set up to play a very significant role in events that were still to come, taking over for another minor book character whom the show hadn't really used at all.

 

Then she was unceremoniously dispatched, and the big story went forward rather awkwardly with the original character. I still suspect that the writers were originally planning to use Ros in that character's place, but decided at the last minute to kill her off to give more punch to Littlefinger's departure from King's Landing, knowing that he and Littlefinger wouldn't be sharing scenes again for quite a while and wanting to put final exclamation point on their snarky rivalry.

 

I agree, but that's getting into dangerous territory that Shimpy hasn't got to yet. So let's save that for later :P

[Haleth]

unless they started changing them to inude her)

 

That typo made me laugh more than I should have.  (Sorry.)

I had no problem with the actress except for the fact she looked too.... healthy for a prostitute from a small town.  It was the gratuitous nudity in every episode that annoyed me when the screentime could have been put to better use.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Haleth

[Holmbo]

One thing about the horrible-demise-to-come:  So, the Red Wedding thing.  In the first season of GoT I was involved in a discussion for a completely different show, people were discussing shocking twists and someone said "Well it's not like Game of Thrones.  Red wedding! Red Wedding!"  and three different people seeminglyflipped their wigs and started essentially berating the poster with "Stop it.  No spoilers. Cut it out."  type stuff.   I was confused as hell, but what I thought was "Okay, whose family colors Red in the show?  Lannister?  Huh, I wonder which Lannister character is forced to marry?"  

I heard of the term before I got to book three and thought it refered to some wedding involving Melisandre. Either as the bride or as the one performing the ceremony. Since she was the closest assosiation to red for me with these books.

[stillshimpy]

Stannis, Jaime, Sansa, Roose, Melisandre and A... erm, I mean Yara.

 

Heh, you know, i actually know that they changed Theon's sister name to Yara.  I just don't what it was at first. I know because Montykins mentioned it in a recap.  He was usually really good about not dropping anything that was a spoiler and I still don't consider that to be a spoiler.   I don't get why they did it, and I don't actually have any recollection of what her name was.  Monty was actually the best sport ever about that Completely Unspoiled Speculation thread.  To this day, I still can't believe he didn't warn me into oblivion on the day I started doing stuff like writing dialogue for Knifey and marching all over the land known as Nowhere Near Topic.   That and Ulle and I had a weird habit of posting basically the exact same sort of thing at the exact same time and then we'd both realize it, and both edit it and the result was chaos....Monty must have thought we were all the biggest bunch of day-drinkers in there.  He had the patience of a saint with that thread, seriously.  

 

But I do know they rather randomly changed Yara's name from something that apparently starts with an A?  Go for it, I promise I can sort that one out.  

 

There hasn't been a ton of book Joffrey yet, but thus far he's less Pure Monster with No Shading.  Like he talks to Sansa at the tournament, asks if she needs an escort and then does this incredibly jackassy thing where he assigns her to servant like he's having someone walk his pet.  It's weird, but it's different and less "he's a pure, unadulterated psycho" than show Joffrey which....Jack Gleason was so good in that role and I do know he decided to leave acting.  The one piece of "press" that I broke and had to watch was Jack Gleason reading a sociology paper at Trinity in Dublin.  Why would that be the one thing that I would watch?  It met up with two other interests of mine (my parents met at Trinity, so I'm sort of connected to the place) and then ...sociology.  Fun!  Plus, I was fairly certain he wasn't going to somehow start dropping GoT spoilers.  

 

Anyway, Joffrey as a character onscreen I think would have bombed as written without him.  I think the key to screen Joffrey is in the actor and I've yet to find out what is contained in the book character other than "yes, that matches up with screen Joffrey...but in a more calculated manner"....like when talks to Sansa at the tournament and then asks if she needs an escort....if I wasn't familiar with Show Joffrey, I don't know if I would have twigged that as being evidence of being a Sadistic Bastard.  Since I did know Show Joffrey?  That seemed evidence of it.  

 

The horrible stuff with Micah played out as being more menacing in the book than in the show, I thought. In the show, even though he is being the King Kong of Sadistic Shits ...I didn't get the sense that he was going to actually harm Micah beyond cutting his cheek.  Like he was making a show out of "I hold your life at my whim....and for my good lady, I spare you...off with you now and if we ever meet again, do not count upon my good favor, but I would not spoil the sunny day for my love and lady."   That kind of thing.  

 

In the book it really came off more like "Oh SHIT.  He is going to straight-up kill that kid! What the hell?  He's not posturing for Sansa as much as he's ....seizing an opportunity to kill someone as they stand helpless."  This relates back to Roz, because whereas it's obvious he's HORRIBLE long before he kills Roz, he's always had other people doing these terrible things for him. As if his Sadism was an illustration of some kind of Impotency.  Does that make sense?  That he is this twisted, but cowardly creature and he clearly is still cowardly....but Jack Gleason always made me think that he was too afraid to pull the trigger on his true nastiness.  As if cruelty and cowardice existed in equal parts within him and he wanted to punish anyone that discovered his cowardice (Sansa and Tyrion) and punctured his image. 

 

Book Joffrey does not give me that impression.  He's still cruel.  He's clearly still a coward.  But book Joffrey seems more likely to just straight up murder people because he's bored and his sadism is...like a real sadist.  He seems smarter than Show Joffrey too.  

 

By the way, the real "Huh, that's interesting..." Lannister characterization that was present from jump and not apparent on the show was Myrcella.  She's observed, sweet, kind...etc.  Show Myrcella?  She's the girl who thought getting Robb Stark's head on a platter and giving it to Sansa might be fun.   That was always a weird choice for the show though, that "Oh good, more than one of them is deeply broken in a fundamental way....you're talking about her brother and how his decapitated head would just be kind of a cool thing....in front of Robb's sister??" 

 

I think the reason Viserys and Dorreah doens't come off in the same exploitive manner is that the exposition is happening between two characters who are being intimate with one another.  They aren't staged as a circus act in the Sex Ring Circus, naked and sweaty props.  Littlefinger also isn't having a  conversation or answering questions, he's just yattering away about himself while objectifying women as actual freaking....commodities.   I mean, good god, that had to break some previously unheard of FIFTH wall or something.  

"we'll be objectifying women here, because their sole purpose is to be naked and screw....as an audition for whether or not they can be sold as things that will be naked and screw....nothing in it is natural and it's treated like a shoe salesman talking about the stitching on a sole "That's right, space them closer!"  before randomly going back to speechifying ...and here's the key part:  Looking not at all into it on a sexual level.  

 

At least in Viserys is clearly participating in the scene.  Littlefinger is bellowing out his backstory at the audience while watching those women in the same manner we, the audience are asked to, and he's bizarrely detached from it.   He bellows backstory and then....what the hell was the butt talk (please do not answer that) ?? ....as if they were concerned, "The audience might actually be paying attention to what he is saying, have him yelp something about ass play!"  

 

Freaky.  

[Delta1212]

That typo made me laugh more than I should have. (Sorry.)

I had no problem with the actress except for the fact she looked too.... healthy for a prostitute from a small town. It was the gratuitous nudity in every episode that annoyed me when the screentime could have been put to better use.

There is talk (even from Robert if I recall?) about his bastard girl at the Eyrie, so even if she isn't named we are supposed to assume it's her.

In the book didn't she admit to aborting the only child she had with Robert? I'm pretty sure it occurs when she's talking to Ned. I don't know the purpose of having her give birth to a son on the show.

Probably not safe to be talking that explicitly about stuff coming up, even under spoilers, without giving shimpy some kind of heads up about what's in it so she can decide if she wants to know it or not.

But I think Cersei's black-haired baby that looked like Robert was just dropped in the show as another clue that the other kids weren't his. Aside from padding the episode and giving Lena something else to act, I think that was the point.

[stillshimpy]

But I think Cersei's black-haired baby that looked like Robert was just dropped in the show as another clue that the other kids weren't his. Aside from padding the episode and giving Lena something else to act, I think that was the point.

 

That and to humanize Cersei a little, maybe?  As well as giving some context to her relationship with Jaime before she talks to Ned in that garden.  I know Cersei and Cat and the Five and One conversation were both things added afterward for time...but they both serve the same purpose, I think.  They make Cersei seem like a person who exists outside of schtupping her twin...which honestly, very off-putting as someone's sole defining characteristic.  

 

Without stuff about that baby, there's no way to perceive that she might just have had her heart viciously broken.   You can't spot her as a possibly grown version of Sansa without those two scenes.  She asks Robert something that indicates she wishes...or at least wished...or wonders....could they have ever been happy if only their child had lived?   

 

It makes it seem more like she turned to Jaime , rather than she would never actually have wanted to marry anyone else and was punishing Robert.  I think that's a big thing.  Robert seems purely a victim of a shrewish wife without those two scenes and Cersei seems like a sexual form of Joffrey.  "Dude, that's not right....ew."  

 

Having it suggested she was grief-stricken, heartbroken and had a husband who literally never gave a thought to her as a human being with an emotional life of her own gives her some depth.   That scene with Cat....I believed that she would actually pray for Bran to be spared.  Or that she was far more conflicted about his having been pushed to his intended death than anything the book indicates.  

 

I mean...my GOD...book Cersei has no shading, at all.  She screws her twin, seems just fine with a seven year old being murdered to shield her affair with him...so unconcerned that the next thing she does is fret that he might live as if she has a cheering section in her head, waving pompoms and yelling "Come on DEATH.....Goooooo Death!  If it can be agonizing, yay!"   ...and the very next thing she does?  Have Sansa's pet murdered.  

 

I mean...shit, the character is in desperate need of something and the added scenes helped make her seem less like she was carved from solidified bile. 

[Delta1212]

I think you gave a good description of show Joffrey. Apparently Jack Gleeson got the part because everyone else was playing him like Damien from The Omen in auditions. Jack's Joffrey, by contrast, has a core of fear that he hides behind a mask of bravado by exerting whatever power he can to inspire fear in others, but as soon as his personal safety is threatened or things don't go according to plan, the mask slips and the fear takes over.

It's really inspired acting.

[Protar]

I do really forget how little Cersei (and Jaime) appear in the first 2/3rds of AGoT. So yeah at this point she definitely has very little depth. But lots of Cersei stuff to come. That said though, Cersei in the books is a completely different character. She is a complete villain. In the show they soften her a lot, to the point that some of the hate she gets from show only people is kind of baffling. A lot of us have taken to nicknaming her Carol because she's just a whole different character, but is actually a consistent and pretty decently written one. 

[Mya Stone]

shimp! Catch up to my reading! ASAP! :p

The spoiler is the chapter I'm on:

I've reached the Tower of Joy.

[ebevan91]

shimp! Catch up to my reading! ASAP! :p

The spoiler is the chapter I'm on:

I've reached the Tower of Joy.

 

I'm waiting for shimpy to get to that chapter :P

[ambi76]

A lot of us have taken to nicknaming her Carol because she's just a whole different character, but is actually a consistent and pretty decently written one.

Which is a bit childish I guess, but I'm, also guilty of calling show!Cersei this now, because I actually really like that 100% more nasty/fuckedup Cersei from the books (many in fandom don't though, David Benioff chief amongst them it seems). She's a sexual or rather adult female Joffrey all right.

It makes it seem more like she turned to Jaime , rather than she would never actually have wanted to marry anyone else and was punishing Robert.

I don't think it's ever explained how/when the Jaime/Cersei thing started on the show, but in the books

it will be. Also much later in the books we'll find out that there was one man Cersei wanted to marry that was neither Robert nor Jaime.

[stillshimpy]

don't think it's ever explained how/when the Jaime/Cersei thing started on the show, but in the books

 

I haven't gotten there, so I'm not reading that yet, but thank you.  

 

Interesting to know that book Cersei just remains pure villain from start to finish.  I guess I'll see what there is to be seen about that, but I can't say the concept appeals to me.  Villains with no shading tend to be boring, but if so many liked her, I guess that can't be the case.  

 

I've read a couple of more chapters.  The stuff with Dany is playing out so faithfully that again, it's just not very interesting.  I don't know if I'd have found Book Dany interesting without having seen Screen Dany.  I'm guessing not until subsequent re-reads.  

 

Okay, so Mya actually tipped me off about this, but yes, you can suss out who Mya's father is.  In the very next chapter I read, they have Ned thinking about Lyanna talking about the baby in the Vale.  So it isn't difficult to figure out.  Well, Ned's been ambushed and even though it turns out Jaime did not do the thing that so cemented my dislike of him -- Skewering Jory through the eye -- he somehow managed to make it worse.  In the series at least Jaime is willing to risk his own neck and doesn't just saunter away with a casual "Kill his men" .  

 

It's funny though, my attachment to Jory is primarily because of the way the actor played him, although he is rendered well on the page, there was just such an earnest quality to Jory that I found really sweet.  He just did not get sarcasm, at all, on the screen and it both cracked me up and won me over.  Plus, I do have to hand it to the show runners, that was a vicious detail to add in to the scene -- the information about nearly losing an eye and then having Jaime stab him to death through it.  

It's really difficult in a medium that depicts so many violent acts to make one death matter on an emotional level. I think we're all pretty desensitized to depictions of death or murder, so managing to elicit a "Nooooo!" in a scene that is clearly a set up for slaughter was a challenge. 

 

But book Jaime actually seems slimier in that moment and that really surprised me.  I never thought I'd come to the point where I could view Jaime's actions in the street as being closer to honorable than some of his alternatives.  It just wasn't going to occur to me that he freaking left the scene, swanned off, stage left and tossed off a "Kill his men" as he departed.  Ew.