Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[nksarmi]

I will admit that I love the idea of Gendry and Arya ending up together at some far off future date, but I came to this story from the show first and then the books.  The actors who play those characters had a great chemistry and her high born who is pretending to be low born to his unknown bastard to a king dynamic was fantastic to watch on screen.  To me, they represent the best potential relationship of the series.  But as others have said, it's not like I expected them to start making babies at that point in time.  But I will also admit that I can't see Arya as 11 to save my life.  And let's be honest, at this point she is so scarred and doesn't know who she is - she can't be with anyone. But if Ayra ever finds herself again and Gendry rows his way into her life again - yeah, I'd support that pairing. :)

[WSmith84]

On the Gendry/Arya thing, I certainly think George likes to play with it. There's a bit in Storm where Arya thinks 'In his chainmail shirt with a sword in his hand, Gendry looked almost a man grown, and dangerous. Hot Pie looked like Hot Pie.'

 

There's also a Jaime chapter in Dance where he thinks of Arya 'if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep.' So I do think George likes to play with it, even if it ultimately amounts to nothing.

 

By the way shimpy, if you want to search for a word or phrase that think might have come up before, you can use the site asearchoficeandfire.com. You can choose which books to search from, so you can avoid spoilers from later books or the book you're on.

[Terra Nova]

@WSmith94

 

No, Jaime thinks that about Sansa, which started some furious Sansa-Gendry shipping cause it's clearly foreshadowed ^^'

[WSmith84]

@WSmith94

 

No, Jaime thinks that about Sansa, which started some furious Sansa-Gendry shipping cause it's clearly foreshadowed ^^'

Ah yes you're quite correct. I just remembered the line, and assumed it was about Arya. Thanks for the correction.

[John Potts]

Maisie Williams In the second season, they wanted me to hint at it a little bit. I think she does kind of … I mean, I don’t know if she’s old enough to really know what it is she’s feeling, but she knows she really cares about this guy.

 

 

I think that's right. Just because you're underage doesn't mean you don't have feelings and Arya's - 12? 13? - so on the cusp of adolescence (and obviously, Maisie Williams is older for Real World reasons). So while  I wouldn't want to see them acting on those feelings (which is unlikely what with them being hundreds of miles apart) she might well be getting confusing feelings about her "good friend" Gendry when he gets hot & shirtless (and hey, turnabout is fair play - it's not like there aren't 23597 scenes of naked women in the show!)

 

ETA: I'm currently reading a biography of Henry VII and it strikes me how much of Tywin's character is based on his - a dictatorial King (OK, Tywin wasn't a King, but he might as well have been) whose control was maintained through his ruthless grip on finance and whose last shred of humanity went when his wife died.

 

Also it struck me that one Dark Horse candidate for the throne might be

Gendry (or Edric Storm, I guess) - a long shot, I admit, but if Stannis were to win the throne it's possible Stannis would name Gendry as his heir (after Shireen, presumably) since he's his closest relative. There is even a distant possibility that Danerys might name him as an heir if she believes herself to be barren (I doubt she will turn out to be, but she might believe it) because he would be a "harmless" choice of heir if balancing the competing claims was too hard (either personally or politically) to name anyone else. (He also bears a certain resemblance to Henry VII in fact - Henry's claim to the throne was based on illegitimate descent that was subsequently legitimised, which would apply to Gendry if he were legitimised).

 

ETA: Ack! I should have realised any such speculation is inherently spoilerific, since it implies who lives to the end of (at least) Book 5. Bad JP! I DO consider it a very long shot (particularly In the latter case)  but it just struck me as a maybe (and it's a long way from being the wildest theory out there!).

 

Incidentally, WindyNights you should probably spoiler your post, too.

Edited November 22, 2015 by John Potts

[WindyNights]

Gendry isn't getting named heir. Stannis would name Edric heir over Gendry. Edric actually had an education and is noble on both sides of the family as well as being widely known as Robert's son.

And no way would Dany name the usurper's bastard son as heir.

In concern to Arya and Gendry, GRRM said that " Arya and Gendry have separate futures but whether they'll meet up again, you'll just have to keep reason."

@Potts It's interesting that you say Henry VII. I remember GRRM bringing up Henry VII in relation to one of his characters but it wasn't Tywin. It was Stannis.

"Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI."

Edited November 21, 2015 by WindyNights

[Haleth]

I've been reading ahead. Boy, there is some good stuff coming up.

[Brn2bwild]

Gendry isn't getting named heir. Stannis would name Edric heir over Gendry. Edric actually had an education and is noble on both sides of the family as well as being widely known as Robert's son.

And no way would Dany name the usurper's bastard son as heir.

 

I could see a dying Stannis with no heirs begging soon-to-be Queen Dany to legitimize Robert's bastards so the Baratheon line doesn't die out.  That would put Gendry first regardless.  

[WindyNights]

I could see a dying Stannis with no heirs begging soon-to-be Queen Dany to legitimize Robert's bastards so the Baratheon line doesn't die out. That would put Gendry first regardless.

I don't think Dany would have any reason to listen to him. And again, she hates Robert.

Furthermore, we don't even know if Gendry is the oldest Baratheon bastard boy. And no one important really knows who his dad is.

On top of that Gendry

follows R'hllor and not the Seven.

I mean don't get me wrong, I would love King Gendry. He reminds me of a less morally draconian version of Stannis.

My friends joke that Gendry is actually Stannis' son especially because of their canon drawings

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Gendry_Amoka.png

http://m.westeros.org/index.php/File:Stannis_Baratheon.jpg

They both look like someone took their lollipop.

[Hecate7]

But having said all that, and having just completed two lengthy chapters the point of one was to reveal that Cersei Lannister had fancied herself in love with Rhaegar Targaryen (whose swoon-worthy status afforded by all is giving me a case of the eye-rolls, they'd need a cross between Orlando Bloom, Matthew McConaughey -- in his prime -- and Jude Law with a sprinkling of elfin magic to render him onscreen...we get it...the girls could barely contain the fluttery of their fluttery parts) ...

 

That's easy. Get Benedict Cumberbatch if you can. But if you can't, Jeremy Irvine, Josh Bowman, or Aaron-Taylor Johnson in a white wig and the right makeup would do.

[Brn2bwild]

I don't think Dany would have any reason to listen to him. And again, she hates Robert.

 

She might if Stannis ends up helping her unexpectedly.

[ImpinAintEasy]

In 'The World Of Ice And Fire' book the portrait of Rhaegar looked like Chris Hemsworth. I always pictured him as more lithe than muscular. Harry Lloyd(Viserys in the show) actually fits my mental image of Rhaegar. I also think he would have made a great Jon Snow.

[Terra Nova]

It seems to me that most Targaryen are described with 'sharp' looks, and their typical nose should be aquiline; so even Emilia Clarke's soft features do not really fit with the description (granted, I prefer her so much over Tamzin Merchant). Harry Lloyd was a perfect Viserys, in appearence and performance.

 

Anyway, most of Targ pictures in A Wolrd of Ice and Fire seem to have been inspired by some real person (some of Aegon's mistresses look so familiar also)

[Lady S.]

I could see a dying Stannis with no heirs begging soon-to-be Queen Dany to legitimize Robert's bastards so the Baratheon line doesn't die out.  That would put Gendry first regardless.  

Only if Stannis knows who in seven hells Gendry is, which he doesn't in the books. Being the spitting image of young Robert doesn't do him any good unless someone whose sayso matters acknowledges him as Robert's son. Edric was acknowledged by Robert himself when he was living, was the only bastard of Robert's with noble blood on both sides, and he was raised accordingly as a royal bastard at Robert's family seat. All of those qualities would give him a greater chance of acceptance as an heir than someone raised in anonymity among the smallfolk as an illiterate armorer's apprentice, no matter how much the peasant-raised bastard physically resembled Robert. 

[John Potts]

I know I started this idea (I really shouldn't post right before I sleep) - but all this speculation is inherently Spoilerific.

Besides, loads of red Boxes make Shimpy wonder if we are up to something!

As to why Danny might

name Gendry (or Edric - I tend to chose Gendry because he was actually on the show, so is more likely to be significant) her heir, supposing the following were to take place:

Danny sorts out Essos (probably with Tyrion as her Hand) and actually invades Westeros, with whatever forces she can muster (plus three Dragons). Margery is executed by the Faith Militant, causing the Tyrells to turn against the Lannisters. FAegon either dies or is proved a fake, so Danny subsumes his forces too. Danny's forces are aided by the two now anti-Lannister Houses, the Tyrells and the Martells. The Ironborn are all killed in a freak tidal wave (just because!).

Problem: Danny has no heirs. Does she choose a Martell and alienate the Tyrells or chose a Tyrell and alienate the Martells? Tyrion says - Why not chose option 3 and name a Baratheon bastard as heir (they are, after all, distant Targaryen cousins)? He has no faction built around him to alienate so he's a "safe" choice in many ways.

I don't say any of this is very likely, but it is a (rather remote) possibility.

Edited November 22, 2015 by John Potts

[Haleth]

Problem: Danny has no heirs.

Yet.

The Ironborn are all killed in a freak tidal wave (just because!)

.

Ha!

 

I forget, where did Davos end up sending Edric?  As Lady S says, bastard or not, he should end up fine, with lands and a title and a high born wife.  But I don't see any reason why Dany would legitimize him as a favor to Stannis (assuming Stannis lasts long enough to ask).

Edited November 22, 2015 by Haleth

[Terra Nova]

I tend to chose Gendry because he was actually on the show, so is more likely to be significant

 

I don't really think the show is any indicator about who is more relevant: when they started planning season 2 (it seems clear to me they plan seasons as they go by) they got an already known and cast bastard and a second one to be introduced and fleshed out for a relatively minor role, so clearly the just gave Gendry whatever plot pertained to Edric. Gendry will likely take also whatever role Edric Storm may still possibly have in the books, even though I think the guy won't be seen again. Just like Jon is taking now the whole Northern storyline of Stannis

 

@Haleth:

 

if I remember correctly Edric was shipped to the Free Cities with a small group of knights and protectors.

 

ETA: regarding Edric

Dance's appendix says he's currently in Lys... if he resemlbes his father he may be roaming the city brothels, good for him!

Edited November 22, 2015 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

Only if Stannis knows who in seven hells Gendry is, which he doesn't in the books. Being the spitting image of young Robert doesn't do him any good unless someone whose sayso matters acknowledges him as Robert's son. Edric was acknowledged by Robert himself when he was living, was the only bastard of Robert's with noble blood on both sides, and he was raised accordingly as a royal bastard at Robert's family seat. All of those qualities would give him a greater chance of acceptance as an heir than someone raised in anonymity among the smallfolk as an illiterate armorer's apprentice, no matter how much the peasant-raised bastard physically resembled Robert.

Stannis knows who Gendry is. Hell, he and Jon Arryn visited him in King's Landing.

“Did Lord Stannis question you as well?”

“The bald one? No, not him. He never said no word, just glared at me, like I was some raper who done for his daughter.”

[stillshimpy]

I'm currently reading a biography of Henry VII and it strikes me how much of Tywin's character is based on his - a dictatorial King (OK, Tywin wasn't a King, but he might as well have been) whose control was maintained through his ruthless grip on finance and whose last shred of humanity went when his wife died.

Completely agree. Plus, Charles Dance even looks a bit like the portraits of Henry VII. Not in any sort of dead-ringer kind of way, but those rather long, hollow cheeks (which sounds awful, but actually I think Charles Dance is a handsome guy).

So, no shock to anyone, not a bunch of time to read this particular week, although not for the usual T-Day sort of reasons.

We're actually in the process of relocating to SoCal (yay) and part of that process is going to keep me busy through the next week. Then I'll have three weeks where it's just me and my dogs and plenty of reading time :-)

May the universe bless St. Louis, but I am looking forward to the trek down the King's Road-the-hell-out-of-here.

Pardon the personal update. I truly don't think I'm fascinating or anything, I just know I tend to hold up the discussion. Play through with the tags and whatnot :-) I'm sure if something amazing happens in the time I do have to read, I'll figure out a time to chime in on it.

[Haleth]

Good luck with your move!

[Terra Nova]

I just know I tend to hold up the discussion. 

Well, of course! It is your discussion after all ^^ So take all the time you need. We're just the audience munching popcorn and grinning for what expects you down the Kingsroad: Sex! Blood! Drama! Plot twists! Charles Dance dancing!

 

https://45.media.tumblr.com/251b36e66e94d57bebf1469e78b72ca4/tumblr_n4q4dr8xQJ1r7konko1_400.gif

Edited November 22, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Ashara Payne]

Ha! There's a great vid on YouTube of him doing that in the latrine when Tyrion opens the door. I'll see if I can find it.

[Haleth]

That is just soooo wrong.

[Terra Nova]

Ain't no party like a Lannister party!

 

https://45.media.tumblr.com/d037d379e05ecfe809de9b03eb74073f/tumblr_mqztyfKlQG1rb99cdo1_500.gif

 

♫ It's his duty-duty / to shake dat booty-booty ♫

Edited November 22, 2015 by Terra Nova

[John Potts]

Love the expression on Littlefinger's face when Tywin's shaking his thang!

 

(What movie is that from?) 

[Ashara Payne]

The video is from 'Ali G Indahouse'

Link to the mashup: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLpkgFfvB9Bu2iNhZMsjpugD43gN8pujBB&v=fhImQ1ow1uA

[Lady S.]

Stannis knows who Gendry is. Hell, he and Jon Arryn visited him in King's Landing.

“Did Lord Stannis question you as well?”

“The bald one? No, not him. He never said no word, just glared at me, like I was some raper who done for his daughter.”

Yeah, dur, sorry. Now I'm guilty of book/show conflation to forget Stannis made the rounds with Jon Arryn. But he still doesn't know where in seven hells Gendry is or that he's even still alive. He's no longer at Tobho Mott's where Stan met him, so just knowing of his existence doesn't much help. I just don't think Stannis would care about finding Gendry or telling anyone else of his existence, even though Gendry is older than Edric. Yes, the elder brother inheriting is a principle Stannis cares about deeply, but that's with the normal process of trueborn children inheriting. The law is a lot less clear when it comes to making heirs by legitimizing bastards. And there's no way Stannis would repeat Aegon the Unworthy's deathbed decree of every bastard being legitimized. The only way to do something like that would be with specifics and names, and I doubt the specifications would favor Gendry over Edric, when Gendry has no legal birthright.

 

If we're posting funny images to pass the time, this Stannis/Mel/leeched-bastard/missing Baratheon son(s) detour has reminded me of this poster for finding Gendry.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Season 5 and Book 5 spoilers:

All of this discussion of what Stannis may do, and it seems like no one actually believes that the Pink Letter was telling the truth, and Stannis did in fact die. I used to believe it was false, but I can't deny that what happened in season 5 has made me reconsider. So I don't believe Stannis will live much longer in the books, certainly not long enough to meet with Dany.

[bobbybuilderton]

Book 6 spoiler:

I thought it was basically confirmed Stannis is alive in one of the winds of winter chapters released

[John Potts]

Book 6 spoiler:

I'm sure I read a preview chapter where Stannis is in Winterfell, looking at his prisoner (Theon) and pondering his next move. Not saying he's definitely going to claim the Iron Throne - the fact that his prospects are looking very poor as of the end of Season 5 leads me to think he won't - but he's probably going to stick around  for a while. And no, I never believed the Pink Letter.

[WindyNights]

GRRM confirmed that

Stannis was alive as of the end of book 5

GRRM also said that there are characters that died in the show that will live to the end of the books.

[Delta1212]

GRRM confirmed that

Stannis was alive as of the end of book 5

GRRM also said that there are characters that died in the show that will live to the end of the books.

Yes, but we also already know that he may be including characters like Dothraki #3 in that statement, so it doesn't really tell us much of anything.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Book 5/6 and season 6 spoilers:

I thought it was confirmed that Theon's TWOW sample chapter happens before Jon's final ADWD chapter chronologically? I'd be really surprised if Stannis lasts beyond the half way point of TWOW. Even before the show did what it did, I never thought he was an end game player, particularly after reading Melisandre's POV chapter. I've seen a poster mention that the show seems to be giving Jon Stannis' material from ADWD/TWOW, and I don't see it that way. Assuming that Jon is resurrected, what exactly do we expect him to do? In the books, he plans to lead the wildlings to Winterfell before FTW happens. This appears to be exactly what he is going to do in season 6. I doubt he is going to forget about Ramsey and Winterfell in the books either. So I think the show is more or less following the broad strokes of what Jon will be doing in TWOW.

[WindyNights]

@Imp The HOTU

strongly implies that Dany and Stannis will confront each other. How could ther do that if he's dead?

And if Stannis is supposed to burn Shireen, how will he do that if he's dead mid-TWOW?

But then D&D don't like Stannis so I wouldn't be surprised if they shat on him again.

Anyways

Jon is likely staying dead a lot longer in the books than in the show. Maybe until near the end of the book.

The Boltons

will be finished by the time Jon comes back imo and there will only be the WW to deal with in the North.

Edited November 23, 2015 by WindyNights

[Alayne Stone]

Book 6 spoilers

Or ... none of that could be true! I bet half the things we speculate as being absolute certainties will turn out to be false as far as The Winds of Winter are concerned. I'm hoping and praying and crossing all fingers and toes that we won't have to speculate for much longer.

[WindyNights]

I sincerely doubt it. Just follow the foreshadowing and you can see a general idea where GRRM is leading us to

[dragonbone]

Foreshadowing as you say and the other thing that's true in the books and in the show.. whenever they tell you what the plan is in advance, you can be certain it isn't going to happen.  The reader/watcher isn't "in" on the planning of anything that's going to be successful.  But on the other hand, if you are told about a plan and the plan is obscured..the next time you see the character they will have successfully pulled off whatever shocking plan they were thinking about but wouldn't tell you.

 

The foreshadowing in this series fun too. spoiler for the rule behind that:

Anytime a character says I wish... it's almost guaranteed to happen. Unless, that is your name is Pate.  If your name is Pate you are going to die.

 

 

[WindyNights]

http://www.pajiba.com/politics/george-rr-martin-delivers-powerful-post-about-syrian-refugees.php

don't know if it was appropriate to put here

Let me know if I should take it out.

[WSmith84]

I'm very much looking forward to shimpy

seeing that Jeyne Westerling was completely innocent, as was her brother who died at the Twins. And I'm wondering if she'll spot George's mistake with regards to Jeyne's hips and come up with some interesting theories.

Edited November 26, 2015 by WSmith84

[bobbybuilderton]

I'm very much looking forward to shimpy

seeing that Jeyne Westerling was completely innocent, as was her brother who died at the Twins. And I'm wondering if she'll spot George's mistake with regards to Jeyne's hips and come up with some interesting theories.

I fully expect her to stubbornly hold her ground on that point

[Ashara Payne]

has it been confirmed that this was a mistake on George's part?

[WSmith84]

has it been confirmed that this was a mistake on George's part?

 

I think it has, but I'm not certain. George certainly has made mistakes with regards to descriptions, such as Renly's eye colour and the gender of a horse. I think this is one of them.

[glowbug]

I think it has, but I'm not certain. George certainly has made mistakes with regards to descriptions, such as Renly's eye colour and the gender of a horse. I think this is one of them.

 

I don't know that anyone has stated it's a mistake, but later printings of the books have removed the description of Jeyne's hips according to online sources with screen shots, which indicates it was a mistake.

[stillshimpy]

Hey guys, having spent thanksgiving in a Native American casino, on the road (only place we could find open for reservations on the holiday , as non-meat eaters no less) I feel like I return to you all fresh from a fever dream of bizarre proportions. Also forced into something resembling brevity due to iPad tapping vs keyboard.

All that said, I didn't want to wait on this stuff. I finally got a chance to read this morning: Jaime and Cersei chapters, Reaver(?) on deck.

Wow, so that was the first fascinating Cersei chapter ever. Way to consign a holy war there, queen regent. Also, I never would have guessed that the Sparrow plot would be fascinating! Holy...cats. Cersei is clearly spooling up to Anne Boleyn the hell out of Marg, and I have to imagine that the plot will soon swerve, because everyone who has ever studied any English history (thinks they) at least know the basics of that. I am assuming Martin has to change it up fast, although casting ND as Marg does give me pause there. Would the show truly be that obvious? She played Anne Boleyn once already :-)

The Poor Fellows are Crusaders and Cersei is freaking gross. Praying to be violated? Have many problems with internalized misogyny, Cersei?

I loved Jaime's recent chapter too. Golden Hand the Just, eh? I never thought I would say this but poor Jamie. Pria's fate was at Utterly disturbing, and so is the Hound at present. I can only hope those rumors are greatly exaggerated. I am assuming at present that they are,and it is just another case of rumor wildly expanding fact. Jaime with cottingham surprised me too , is that the same version of Brienne's memory? It seemed quite different. Was his pride pricked, am I misremembering, or was her memory kinder?

Either way, it seems clear, that Jamie is actually the mirror image to Brienne's and having met her, he resembles her more and more. Truly his split apart. Yes, that is my version of brevity :-)

Now I find myself feeling like Ozzy Osbourne, in that car commercial, only instead of "what's a Bieber?" I wonder what's a Reaver? My current bet is that it is the reincarnated hound, but I'm not sure,

Edited November 28, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Triskan]

Just a side-note : I greatly enjoy that "Reaver" chapter ! ;)

[stillshimpy]

I literally just read the first sentence and realized that we're bound for the Iron island story again. Onwards!

[Terra Nova]

Now that Shimpy's past Cersei's chapter, I can complain about the (lack of) editing: words like 'sinecure', 'avatar' or 'braggadocio' just don't belong in such a setting, and it's even more striking considering that from this book onwards Martin starts with the older English numeration system (three-and-ten instead of thirteen) and similar slightly archaic wordings, like 'break the fast'. I just cringe every time such anachronisms pop up :/

[Which Tyler]

I feel like I return to you all fresh from a fever dream of bizarre proportions.

 

Good book - but I didn't think you were reading anything else of GRRM's for the time being? ;)

[Delta1212]

There's a lot of faux archaism to start with, and it's not an actual historical piece. There's no way to communicate in a way that is intelligible to a modern audience without using some "anachronistic" words. At most, you can only pepper the language with some archaic-sounding flavor, which is what he does.

Additionally, just taking a quick google, earliest documented usage of each:

Sinecure: 1662

Braggadocio: 1590

Avatar: 1784

[Terra Nova]

Sinecure is Latin, Braggadocio is styled after Italian words being 'trendy' at court, Avatar is Sanscrit. And all of these stick out like a sore thumb in a Medieval setting (while all the years you listed belong to Modern Era already). Especially after deciding to resume the Germanic way of counting.

Plus, nothing's lost if Cersei said 'the High Septon is considered to be the voice of the Gods on earth/the Gods made flesh' or similar. Same goes for the others. I have a gripe with using borrowed words from languages that do not exist in Westeros (same goes for the bazars in Sunspear), while English synonims are available and understandable. This should have been work for the editors.