stillshimpy November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 Callaphera, it's truly not my party and please feel free to add whatever, whenever and know it will be welcome. This was just a fun thing for everyone to do in between seasons when I left the Unsullied group, but it's a discussion for anyone who wants to be here. I understand what you're saying here, but I think it's just as easy to interpret Kevan's statements differently. I don't think he treated her this way because she's a woman; he treated her this way because she's incompetent. He wanted her to go back to Casterly Rock and leave the governance of the realm (and the rearing of Tommen) to people who wouldn't screw it up. Especially concerning Tommen, he had good evidence to call her a bad mother considering the monster Joffrey turned out to be. This is where I am with Kevan. Cersei's assessment of Kevan's wife notwithstanding in my opinion of her. Besides, I think it goes beyond just being, "My distaste for Cersei" but rather Kevan's distaste for Tywin's children in general. In Tyrion's POV when he was in a cell, Tyrion comes to a rather startling conclusion about Kevan that surprises him: Kevan actually loves, admires and trusts Tywin. So he loves Tywin who -- from Kevan's perspective -- has been murdered by one son, Tyrion. Why? Because Tyrion is suspected of killing Joffrey. Why? Specifically to get back at Cersei. The brother Kevan loves has been murdered mostly because he has squabbling children (this is, again, from Kevan's perspective). Whether or not Kevan Lannister knows that Cersei was boinking Lancel is almost beside the point, but he may or may not know that. Even if he doesn't, he knows that Lancel is a pale, sickly shadow of a man and that it was in service to a War about whether or not Cersei's children were legitimate. They aren't. Kevan now knows this so that's one family member he loved murdered, one son reduced to a brittle husk and now Cersei's ordering him to give up more to better serve the weirdness that has taken a wrecking ball to his life? Yeah, Kevan hating Cersei doesn't need to have even one thing to do with her being a woman. However, even within this world, there are far, far more demeaning gendered terms to be lobbed about. "Woman" seemed almost divorced from the possibility that it was sexist or misogynistic specifically because it's the mildest way for Kevan to actually state his distaste and dislike, that Cersei has more than earned in ways that have nothing to do with what he thinks of the role of women. 1 Link to comment
nksarmi November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 I'd have to reread it, but Kevan's use of the word "woman" doesn't immediately imply sexism to me when spoken to a woman who happens to be a Queen Mother/ Reagent. I think he was trying to insult her by labeling her with the base of what she is.....a woman. I mean for goodness sake, look at all the titles that accompany Dany - ugh it just goes on and on - sometimes on the show I wonder how many times the people who introduce her screw up that dialogue and just crack up laughing. So anyway, by referring to Cersei as "woman" rather than Queen Mother, Lady of Casterly Rock, or even niece (which would have reminded her of his seniority over her but still invoked the family connection) - he was kind of simplifying who she is - it would be like someone calling Robb or Jon "boy." Because even though they were on the edge of still being "boys" in that world - one was crowned King of the North and the other Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Calling either of them "boy" would be about the most insulting thing you could throw at them. 1 Link to comment
stillshimpy November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 Yeah, I took it as a way of distancing himself from any feelings of obligation to her on any level. "Your Grace" ....well, he damned well knows she committed treason, so that's an honorific he's not in the mood to employ. "Niece" is acknowledging a familial connection to her and again, I think he blames her for the loss of a family member he does love. "Queen Regent" Uh...problem is, he knows just how legitimate of a claim any of Cersei's children has on the throne. It might actually matter to him, by the way, that he's being asked to The Hand to a person with no right to the Throne. Anyway, I just thought it was a way of severing himself from feelings of familial connection, honor due a lady, etc. etc. It really seemed very specific to Cersei vs Cersei's gender and frankly, makes a ton of sense to me when viewed through that lens. By the way, I finished the endlessly dragging Brienne chapter as she doggedly stalks towards a trap. The only surprise in any of that was that Nimble Dick turned out to not be a complete liar and a cheat, except he clearly was anyway. The fact that Band of Psychos from Harrenhall were waiting there and Dick knew that the boats wouldn't pick them up there sort of suggests he at least thought he was herding her towards a solid robbing. But what an incredibly long chapter and it does hurt the momentum of the story to know ahead of time "You're chasing rumors and people are just trying to rob you" and it's made all the more frustrating because ....Brienne actually mulls all of these things over. It's like watching someone in a horror movie go over all the reasons they shouldn't head into the unlit, foul smelling basement with the screams of agony issuing forth from it....while continue on their way towards the danger. "I probably shouldn't be doing this. Onwards. This is a trap. Heigh-ho. I'm certainly about to be ambushed and killed. Farther up and further in!" Good gravy, what an annoying inner-monologue that all was and apparently it was all so that we could witness Brienne not hesitate to kill when it was kill-or-be-killed. Well that was worth a big, long ass chapter. I was at least a little surprised that Hyle was trailing her the whole time. That was a nice-ish touch. But it came at the end of a truly overlong chapter. Link to comment
Delta1212 November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 Yeah, I don't dislike Feast, but there is a reason it took me twice as long to finish as the any other book in this series, and it's not just a matter of page count. Link to comment
bobbybuilderton November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 After my re-read of the fourth and fifth books I skip brienne's chapters. I also skip a good number of Sam's chapters though because I just despise sam Link to comment
stillshimpy November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 I don't find that I'm disliking the book, but I do think it's suffering a bit from a pacing and structural issue. It had to have been at least a little frustrating for fans when it was first released. That's not going to be a feeling I'm likely to truly understand for kind of while, the "....and when do I get the next installment?" until after I'm through the next book. I'm just assuming that this might have been a frustrating read. When Mya told me that the missing POVs from this book -- and the reason there's a fan ordered "try reading four and five thusly" suggestion is that Jon, Tyrion and Dany aren't in this book. That must have been frustrating as all hell for Tyrion fans, since we last saw him killing his father. As near as I can tell, Bran isn't in this book either, or at least he hasn't been thus far. Whereas it is interesting to get Cersei POV and it's also interesting to get to know Brienne better also, there's a lot of narrative bloat in this story. That entire chapter with Brienne seemed to exist to give more color-adding mythology to the world around them which....there's kind of enough of already ...and to explore Brienne's thoughts about what it is like to kill someone for the first time. Now, I admit, that's sort of fresh territory in this story and something that isn't dealt with often: anyone having any qualms about killing anyone. That said, the "will she be able to bring herself to ignore the terrible screaming of the lambs" type of build-p was offset by this thought throughout: "Uh, this is the same woman who hurled a boulder down onto a ship full of Robb's bannermen. It's a bit late for any navel-gazing about how she feels about necessary-to-survival levels of violence. So what might have been an interesting thought process three books ago just felt a little "Huh, uh, this world has been at war for three entire books thus far and Brienne has tromped through large parts of it....either she needs to make her peace with this necessity ...which one would presume she did when she was part of the Kingsguard ....or she's a dead duck. She's still quacking in the series, so I presume she sees her way clear to doing that which is necessary. And I'm glad that it was a nice, freaking lengthy passage of navel-gazing punctuated by Dick adding local color to the plodding pace of this narrative. Sorry, i really am enjoying the story overall but that was just a wheel-spinner of a chapter. Link to comment
bobbybuilderton November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 While her moral quandaries are not the most entertaining, I will note that there are people who are fans of brienne and have taken to referring to her show version as brienne the brute. I'm indifferent but I do think it's amusing that here's yet another character the producers seem to have completely missed the point on 2 Link to comment
Ashara Payne November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 (edited) For those wishing for sites which probe further, here are some (quite apart from 'official journalism', YouTube etc): www.towerofthehand.com All leather must be boiled www.Boiledleather.com www.Iswintercoming.com www.Grrm.livejournal.com (GRRM's notablog) Grrrmlivejournal.com (Finishthebookgeorge) Makinggameofthrones.com Westeros.org Gameofthronesfan.org Watchersonthewall.com Winteriscoming.net Historyofwesteros.com History-behind-game-of-thrones.com Quartermaester.info http://quartermaester.info Racefortheironthrone http://racefortheironthrone.tumblr.com/post/108480260796/twow-predictions Meereeneseblot.wordpress.com Radiowesteros.com https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com Pawntoplayer.wordpress.com http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/26wqxo/spoilers_all_grrms_threefold_revelation_strategy/ Cantuse.wordpress.com Theculturalvacuum.tumblr.com Gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com Asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/20/elio-and-linda-vs-angrygotfan-the-great-sansa-debate/ Edited November 12, 2015 by Ashara Payne 3 Link to comment
chandraReborn November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 You know, I didn't even think about it that way, but you're right--Kevan has plenty of reasons to blame Tywin's kids for his death 1 Link to comment
vibeology November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 Oh Hyle! I think he's a great character. I've never minded Brienne's chapters because her supporting characters are just some of my favourites. 1 Link to comment
Kadomony November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 The Meereenese Blot has some really good essays on A Dance With Dragons -- highly recommended (but not until after book five, of course). 1 Link to comment
WindyNights November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 What's more is that GRRM has gone on record saying the Meereenese Blot guy was right on the money. Link to comment
Haleth November 12, 2015 Share November 12, 2015 Both Feast and Dance could have used a box of red editing pencils, but a lot of the seemingly endless wandering by several characters does pay off in the end. You just need to sit back and patiently enjoy the travelrama. Think of it this way... if the books were any shorter we would finish this read through loooooooong before season 6 starts. Then what would we do in the meantime? :) 4 Link to comment
Alayne Stone November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 I love Hyle Hunt. :D I totally acknowledge the fact that while I may enjoy page on page of discussion about the type of trees in the area and that strange rock over there to the right and the history of this specific plot of land people outside the area wont' care about immensely, it's not everyone's cup of tea. And yes, I pretty much agree with everything you said regarding Kevan. I never took his comments to Cersei to be representative of his feeling for the entirety of her gender. He has valid reasons for not trusting her to rule the realm. And I guess I just appreciated the fact that there was one person around her who was not going to put up with her bullshit when everyone else was just placating to her. 1 Link to comment
Lavignac November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 Gore, boobs, that sort of thing I was expecting (because HBO), and the slurping scene was very... slurpy (and the scene in the brothel with the women and Littlefinger made me tilt my head very dog-like for awhile) You mean... doggy-style? Sorry, just couldn't control my giggles over this combination... Welcome to the circus. Link to comment
Callaphera November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 You mean... doggy-style? Heh. I guess I did. It was an honest slip of the tongue (fingers?) but yeah, it's very fitting. I sped through Season One last night since Mr. Callaphera was distracted by some documentaries I had no interest in and started Season Two today. I have to say, they totally made up for that scene with the Littlefinger and Varys scenes in the throne room. "So, what happened to your balls?" "Oh, you're clever." "No, but seriously dude, where are your balls?" "Did I say clever? I meant very clever." "Okay, but your balls?" Again, the show is all right. The Dothraki scenes were making me cringe a little towards the end. Yes, we know you're a savage tribe of people but there was more to them than that, and Khal Drogo seemed rather progressive for who he was. But no, let's just keep up the "savage and nothing but" feel to them. But the books are definitely where it's at for me. I feel like I could write thousands of words on how Ned and Catelyn Stark are just as bad of parents as Cersei is (though I admire Catelyn even with all her mistakes), and I could write even more on how much I love Sansa and how the poor girl is surviving in the only way she knows how. I thought Arya was going to break my heart in the books when I started to see her journey, but Sansa is definitely the heart wrencher for me. I feel like one of the things the show makes me appreciate is Joffrey's character. Maybe because there's no POV for him in the books, he didn't feel as fleshed out as he could have? Whereas in the show I get a little more of him, for better or worse, and it makes him feel a little more realized. I have a feeling that it will colour my re-read as well. A question that involves Book Five: Varys is a eunuch. They practically beat you over the head with it in both of the books and the show. You might as well have a giant blinking sign that says "EUNUCH!" with an arrow pointing at his head. Is he? I don't know why I wonder but it sticks out to me in the same way as the Tywin Lannister poisoning theory, which I am a fan of because why mention that specific Widow's Blood poison during Tyrion's trial if it's not used at some point (though it still could be in the future)? So I wonder if they keep beating us over the head with "Hey, in case you missed it, Varys is a eunuch!" unless maybe he isn't? And he's someone else completely? I mean, he's clearly pro-Targaryen - well, at least one possible Targaryen - or maybe just pro-chaos. Am I now in the crackpot territory or just repeating something that many others have wondered? 2 Link to comment
ImpinAintEasy November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 (edited) Heh. I guess I did. It was an honest slip of the tongue (fingers?) but yeah, it's very fitting. I sped through Season One last night since Mr. Callaphera was distracted by some documentaries I had no interest in and started Season Two today. I have to say, they totally made up for that scene with the Littlefinger and Varys scenes in the throne room. "So, what happened to your balls?" "Oh, you're clever." "No, but seriously dude, where are your balls?" "Did I say clever? I meant very clever." "Okay, but your balls?" Again, the show is all right. The Dothraki scenes were making me cringe a little towards the end. Yes, we know you're a savage tribe of people but there was more to them than that, and Khal Drogo seemed rather progressive for who he was. But no, let's just keep up the "savage and nothing but" feel to them. But the books are definitely where it's at for me. I feel like I could write thousands of words on how Ned and Catelyn Stark are just as bad of parents as Cersei is (though I admire Catelyn even with all her mistakes), and I could write even more on how much I love Sansa and how the poor girl is surviving in the only way she knows how. I thought Arya was going to break my heart in the books when I started to see her journey, but Sansa is definitely the heart wrencher for me. I feel like one of the things the show makes me appreciate is Joffrey's character. Maybe because there's no POV for him in the books, he didn't feel as fleshed out as he could have? Whereas in the show I get a little more of him, for better or worse, and it makes him feel a little more realized. I have a feeling that it will colour my re-read as well. A question that involves Book Five: Varys is a eunuch. They practically beat you over the head with it in both of the books and the show. You might as well have a giant blinking sign that says "EUNUCH!" with an arrow pointing at his head. Is he? I don't know why I wonder but it sticks out to me in the same way as the Tywin Lannister poisoning theory, which I am a fan of because why mention that specific Widow's Blood poison during Tyrion's trial if it's not used at some point (though it still could be in the future)? So I wonder if they keep beating us over the head with "Hey, in case you missed it, Varys is a eunuch!" unless maybe he isn't? And he's someone else completely? I mean, he's clearly pro-Targaryen - well, at least one possible Targaryen - or maybe just pro-chaos. Am I now in the crackpot territory or just repeating something that many others have wondered? Book 5 spoiler: So, you believe "Aegon' is legit? I don't. Go back and re-read the House Of The Undying chapter from A Clash Of Kings if you get the chance. There is a vision that shows and speaks of a "Mummer's Dragon" and is followed with "Mother of Dragons: Slayer Of Lies". It is a popular belief that "Aegon' is an impostor, and that he is the Mummer's Dragon. My guess is that he is Illyrio's son by his second wife, who had silver/gold hair and typical Valyrian features. It is also speculated that she was a Blackfyre descendant, and that is who Varys truly supports. It would also explain why The Golden Company, famous for never breaking their contract, did so to support him. The Golden Company was founded by Bittersteel, a legitimized Targaryen Great Bastard and Blackfyre supporter. They fought to place a Blackfyre on the throne in several Blackfyre Rebellions. When Tyrion asks Illyrio how he was able to get The Golden Company to break their contract with Myr, he replied "Some contracts are writ in ink, others in blood. I will say no more." I would be upset if 'Aegon' turns out to be legit. Not only is it hard to believe that Varys would be able to swap out babies without Elia noticing, it also is hard to believe that she would willingly allow him to take her baby, while leaving her young daughter behind to be killed. But ignoring the logistics of it all, my biggest gripe would be about introducing another son of Rhaegar into the story and diminishing some of the intrigue surrounding Jon Snow(last remaining child of Rhaegar/possible heir to the Targ throne). So I really hope that I am correct and "Aegon" is false. Edited November 13, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy 3 Link to comment
Ashara Payne November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 Callaphera, I can't add spoiler tags so I'll just reply that, yes, there are theories regarding that person's true identity (as there are with many characters- some are crackpot). Link to comment
Terra Nova November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 (edited) @Callaphera: About Sansa, someone (AsharaPayne, good girl!) upthread posted the From Pawn to Player website, a recollection of topics from Westeros.org that dealt with a re-read of all her chapters; since you seem to really love her, I would suggest to have a look (I am talking about thousands and thousands of comments that more often than not end up being essays, but I truly loved them). Also, WendyNerdWrites has two essays about the failure in parenting Sansa, which contain some pretty unpopular opinion, but I find them well written, backed up and thought-provoking (there's some slight comment about the later seasons of GoT but nothing important; the Sansa re-read site is Series!free): http://wendynerdwrites.tumblr.com/post/130108695567/sansa-stark-sexual-abuse-and-the-treatment-of http://wendynerdwrites.tumblr.com/post/131197976072/sansa-stark-sexual-abuse-and-the-treatment-of Also, a mention about Tower of the Hand: there is a beautiful spoiler tag system that allows you to select which books/seasons have you read and excise the spoilery parts of the essays, so there is truly no way of being spoiled. Edited November 13, 2015 by Terra Nova Link to comment
polyhymnia November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 I also find Hyle Hunt entertaining. Probably repeating myself but I definitely like this installment better on subsequent reads (but I did skip a lot of the ironborn). 1 Link to comment
jellyroll2 November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 For Callaphera's book 5 question: You are not alone in wondering if Varys is even a eunuch, much less who he claims to be. It was touched elsewhere that he could be a Blackfyre supporter as opposed to a Targ supporter. Others take it further and wonder if he's actually a Blackfyre descendent himself and that Illyrio's wife Serra was Varys' sister. And I'm definitely in the "Aegon is fake" column. I'm not sure he knows he's a fake though. Link to comment
Lady S. November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 (edited) Psh, we all know Varys's greatest secret is being a merman. (Not spoiler tagged for obvious reasons.) Edited November 13, 2015 by Lady S. Link to comment
mac123x November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 Book 5 Spoiler Since Shimpy is rapidly approaching the Cercei chapter where Pycelle tells her that Wyman Manderly beheaded Davos and stuck his head and hands on the city walls for all to see, might I suggest that those of us who know better play along? Avoid hints that things are not as they appear. It'll make the reveal of Manderly's plot all the better. 5 Link to comment
Which Tyler November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 Book 5 Spoiler Since Shimpy is rapidly approaching the Cercei chapter where Pycelle tells her that Wyman Manderly beheaded Davos and stuck his head and hands on the city walls for all to see, might I suggest that those of us who know better play along? Avoid hints that things are not as they appear. It'll make the reveal of Manderly's plot all the better. You evil bastard, and I completely agree 1 Link to comment
Terra Nova November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 Regarding last two posts: The show for once will have some use, since Season 5 had Davos dragging along without any arc or significant screen time, Shimpy may believe that his story was already over, muahahahahah! In b4: Mya already told her Link to comment
Alayne Stone November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 You guys are evil. I love it. I will pretend to be thoroughly devastated. Link to comment
jellyroll2 November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 I am so down for this. *evil laugh* Link to comment
Mya Stone November 13, 2015 Author Share November 13, 2015 Regarding last two posts: The show for once will have some use, since Season 5 had Davos dragging along without any arc or significant screen time, Shimpy may believe that his story was already over, muahahahahah! In b4: Mya already told her I most certainly did not. I never even gave the smallest of hint about Lady Stoneheart! I can keep secrets! :p And I'm totally in. 3 Link to comment
mac123x November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 Cheese it! All the spoiler tags are even a "uh oh, something is coming" clue. Except she'll probably think we're talking about the off-screen death. Yeah, lets go with that. We're waiting in anticipation of that. 1 Link to comment
Delta1212 November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 (edited) Cheese it! All the spoiler tags are even a "uh oh, something is coming" clue. Except she'll probably think we're talking about the off-screen death. Yeah, lets go with that. We're waiting in anticipation of that. I've already been developing a fairly considered analysis of off screen deaths and the way that interacts with the asynchronous nature of this part of the narrative, plus working in a bit about the show and its decisions to kill off or not kill off characters that are alive/dead in the series proper Edit: Which, incidentally, I don't know that I'm going to post in full, because you should always beware of tipping somebody off that something is up by overdoing the reaction, but at least, having thought through what my opinion would be if his execution actually was part of the story, I know where I'll be coming from when talking about it. Sometimes I get a little overly invested in practical jokes. Edited November 13, 2015 by Delta1212 1 Link to comment
John Potts November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 To be honest, I never believed he was dead, but I'll go along with the fake out! 1 Link to comment
nksarmi November 13, 2015 Share November 13, 2015 Oh my word, once shimpy is done with the reads and she goes back and looks under all the spoiler tags - she is totally going to enjoy the moment when the spoiler tags went from us just anxiously awaiting her getting to the next big WTF moment to actively plotting against her! 2 Link to comment
ImpinAintEasy November 14, 2015 Share November 14, 2015 What if Shimpy doesn't believe he is truly dead? We can't exactly lie to her. I guess the standard response will be "keep reading." Link to comment
Lady S. November 14, 2015 Share November 14, 2015 C'mon, y'all, we can't even know if this particular spoiler-tagging and secret keeping is really necessary until shimpy actually reacts to the chapter in question. 1 Link to comment
Terra Nova November 14, 2015 Share November 14, 2015 (edited) I most certainly did not. I never even gave the smallest of hint about Lady Stoneheart! I can keep secrets! :p Maybe it was something you told her in the early stages to convince her the books weren't so bleak, like Sansa not marrying Ramsay Sue or Shireen being still alive. For what I've seen, anyway, you've been the perfect chaperone :) ETA: a small joke in the last Brienne's chapter: She had ridden over Harry Sawyer and broken Robin Potter’s helm, giving him a nasty scar. This after 'Storm of Swords' lost the Hugo Award to 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire'. Edited November 14, 2015 by Terra Nova 4 Link to comment
stillshimpy November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Sorry I've fallen a bit behind, guys. Busy weekend :-) Okay, so I read the Dorne chapter in which Arianne tries to take Myrcella off to basically make a bid for the Iron Throne. Quite the dynamic intrigue, but it ended the way that sort of caper seems to end in this story: in blood and with tears. I'd feel sorry for Arys Oakheart, but I think my views on lifelong vows of celibacy are pretty well known. They seldom lead to anything good. Sure, there's going to be occasional person who just has zero interest in sex, but for the most part? People like sex. Vows to never have sex in the name of some alleged greater good just seem to invariably lead to tears and bloodshed (as well as illicit sex). So another vow of celibacy bites the dust. I did like the Dayne relative being all pissy about how everyone remembers Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning (wasn't that the guy who spirited Dany and Viserys away?). Kind of good to know that Prince Doran has some game of his own, and then it was also weirdly heartening to see that Arianne was actually very upset that the whole thing ended with people dying. People in these stories are so often completely unconcerned with life and death. So it was fun to see a character actually react in a manner that felt closer to appropriate. Arya in the House of Black and White is interesting and I've enjoyed learning more about the many faced god and the history of the Faceless men. However, season five since I'm horribly afraid that this story is just going to the same place: Arya blinded for trying to exact revenge. Nice of the show to have the person doing that to her be Jaqen rather than "the (clearly not)kindly old man. So that makes it a little bit difficult to invest in the chapters as I just sit around and cringe way through, waiting for a spot of maiming and blinding. Next up a Sansa chapter under her "Natural daughter fo Petyr Baelish" name. This ought to be odd. Link to comment
mac123x November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 I did like the Dayne relative being all pissy about how everyone remembers Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning (wasn't that the guy who spirited Dany and Viserys away?). Arthur Dayne was one of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Ned killed him with an assist from Howland Reed. 2 Link to comment
Delta1212 November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Arthur Dayne was one of the Kingsguard who died at the Tower of Joy when Ned went to get Lyanna. He was Ashara Dayne's brother. 2 Link to comment
Alayne Stone November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 It was Ser Willem Darry who spirited Viserys and Daenaerys away to Dragonstone, House Targaryen's Master at Arms and interestingly enough, not a member of the Kingsguard. Ser Arthur Dayne was probably the greatest living knight known at the time when he died at The Tower of Joy. I see you've officially met Darkstar, who is pretty much the opposite of Arthur Dayne. Arianne indeed cares very deeply for all those around her. I love the end of the chapter with Areo Hotah saying "Someone told. Someone always tells." Alright, so I guess we can officially name this the Queenmaker plot now that Arianne's plans have been revealed. Very, very different from the show. I really have no idea why they didn't go with this. Even though I was really bummed Arianne was not included, they could have easily adopted this plot with the Sand Snakes. It would have tied way better into the whole political power ploy for the Iron Throne the show is so centered around and tied that entire storyline to the narrative as a whole better. 6 Link to comment
Terra Nova November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 (edited) The guy who spirited away Viserys and Daenerys is Ser Willem Darry - not of the Kingsguard. As the shadows say in Ned's dream, when he tries to let them go away without a fight, 'Darry is an honorable man... but not of the Kingsguard' (this is one of the main textual evidence for a theory regarding Jon that should be discussed once Shimpy's done with Dance ^^) ETA: ninja'd by Alayne Stone like a n00b ^^' Also, DOrkstar is one of the most unintentionally hilarious characters of the books. Quotes like 'I am of the night' are infamous in the fandom XD I went for not caring that much for Arys to be absolutely crushed when I read about his last longing look... damn you Martin. @Shimpy: Regarding Arya, though, you already heard the Kindly Man saying that it's not their place to judge those they kill, so just keep in mind that 'the show is the show, the books are the books'. Edited November 16, 2015 by Terra Nova 1 Link to comment
John Potts November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 mac123x Arthur Dayne was one of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Ned killed him with an assist from Howland Reed. And five others! From Ned's dream in the GoT: "Seven against three it was..." and despite being outnumbered more than two to one, Ned's band only just won. Returning House Dayne's sword was the ostensive reason why Eddard went to see Ashara Dayne afterward which some people consider might be a cover story if Jon Snow is in fact Eddard & Ashara's child (if R+L=J is false). Link to comment
Protar November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 I am beyond mad that they cut out my best girl Arianne and the proper Dornish plot. Sometimes I think that I've got a handle on the show's adaptational logic, but then they throw a curve ball like that and I'm just baffled. I can understand wanting to trim down the plot but...they trimmed nothing. They just took an interesting plot and then replaced it with an uninteresting plot, but no time was saved. They forewent having one solid protagonist in exchange for having three uncharacterised, barely distinguishable "protagonists." We didn't even get a dumbed down version of Arianne who was just there for the T and A. It's mind boggling. A lot of people aren't keen on Arianne but she's my favourite character bar Tyrion so...I get pretty defensive over her. 4 Link to comment
Terra Nova November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 but no time was saved. That's really the most infuriating thing, since most of the questionable changes have been justified because of time constraints: last season's Dorne took up an enormous amount of time, especially compared to what achieved in the end. It both felt rushed and stagnating, with a particular mention of the amount of characters introduced, all of them very bland and two-dimensional. I don't know which character has been wronged the most: Doran? The Sand Snakes? Jaime? I go with Ellaria Also, by cutting Arianne and making Trystane the heir, together with changing the ruler of Dorne (from the Princess to the Prince who paid visit to Castely Rock) they also erased the main difference between Dorne and the rest of Westeros: the heir is the oldest child, not the oldest son. 1 Link to comment
Eegah November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Martin has admitted that Darkstar was his attempt to deliberately create an "ensemble darkhorse" as TV Trope puts it, ie a character who's tremendously popular despite limited page/screen time, after he was so surprised at how huge the response to Oberyn was. What he ended up with was all the proof you need that you simply can't force that kind of thing, and anyone who tries will just end up looking silly. 1 Link to comment
mac123x November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Seems a slight miscalculation that he would think a dude who tried to decapitate an innocent young girl would become popular with the fans. He may have wanted an ensemble darkhorse, but he wound up with a Scrappy. Link to comment
Delta1212 November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 Seems a slight miscalculation that he would think a dude who tried to decapitate an innocent young girl would become popular with the fans. He may have wanted an ensemble darkhorse, but he wound up with a Scrappy. It's funny, because I've always actually kind of liked Scrappy Doo. Link to comment
WindyNights November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 (edited) Darkstar isn't really a Scrappy. He's too much of s super minor character. "I am of the night" is cheesy but it makes sense in context. It's Darkstar getting pissy and telling Myrcella to stfu about his cousin. I don't really like the character but I like what he symbolizes. He symbolizes war and temptation to Arianne just like Daario does to Dany. And just like war, he's attractive but will bite you in the ass in the end if you give in. Edited November 16, 2015 by WindyNights Link to comment
bobbybuilderton November 16, 2015 Share November 16, 2015 It's funny, because I've always actually kind of liked Scrappy Doo. oh hey Satan, nice of you to visit us today 2 Link to comment
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