Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[stillshimpy]

In an interview GRRM has confirmed that the undegaoler was Varys.

See, that's what I wondered. The black Cells on that level hadn't been used in ages until Ned Stark was stuck in them and Varys snuck in to see Ned in an outfit that really fit the description of the jailer.

[Delta1212]

See, that's what I wondered. The black Cells on that level hadn't been used in ages until Ned Stark was stuck in them and Varys snuck in to see Ned in an outfit that really fit the description of the jailer.

I didn't realize that GRRM had confirmed it, but yeah, the general sentiment is that Rugen was a false identity Varys had set up.

[Delta1212]

One thing I like from the Cersei chapter was pretty much everything with Kevan, who has been something of a non-entity up to this point.

I really just started liking the character a lot as of this chapter and re-reading it reminded me of why.

[Haleth]

Sheesh, I never made the connection that Rugen was Varys. I was distracted by the name, picturing the six fingered man.

[Delta1212]

Sheesh, I never made the connection that Rugen was Varys. I was distracted by the name, picturing the six fingered man.

My name is Oberyn Martell. You killed my sister. Prepare to die.

[mrspidey]

I do enjoy that Cersei's just bad at all of this, when she thinks she's bloody well brilliant. I can't say I'm giddy at the thought of a full book with Cersei as freaking regent. She's paranoid, completely unskilled at handling people and she doesn't actually seem all that bright. More interested in plotting vengeance against any small slight than in getting anything done.

That's what's so great about her chapters. It's this weird fascination of watching an accident in slow motion. 

[nksarmi]

I though seven days was abnormally long and meant to show that Cersei was batshit crazy for insisting on it.  I also thought Jamie started to realize this but I could have been projecting lol.

 

I do think it was meant to show that no matter how powerful or rich you were, the rick stink like the poor when they are dead.  But I also think Cersei was - without realizing it of course - humiliating her house/name and weakening the Lannisters in the process.

 

One thing about Jamie (season five spoilers):

I don't recall him caring all that much that his father was dead. Whereas in the show, it's his motivation for hating Tyrion. Am I misremembering?  Because I think it's telling that one kid killed him, the other didn't much care, and the third handled his death in the most insane way possible.  Lannister legacy indeed! 

[Delta1212]

I just read that Jaime chapter earlier.

He cares a lot that Tywin is dead and thinks about the fact that he'd have killed Tyrion if he'd known that's what he was planning.

[mac123x]

The description of Rugen that the chief undergaoler gives Jaime matches how Varys was dressed the night Tyrion escaped, so I think we were supposed to infer that they are the same person.  Jaime pretty much did.

 

One important bit from the Jaime chapter was we got to hear him perseverate:.  "She's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know..."

 

Also, I liked how he demonstrated some wit by having Mace Tyrell go off to take Storm's End.  Maybe Jaime wouldn't make that bad of a Hand after all....

[WindyNights]

Well Jaime at one point thinks about

installing Littlefinger as Hand

so I hold reservations at how good of a Hand he'd make.

[WindyNights]

The thing about Tywin smelling is that well other than poison there's no explanation for it.

Pycelle is confused about it. He's gone through this process before and they did everything that would stop a corpse from smelling. So then why does Tywin's body stink so badly?

Anyways here's the text people look at:

Tywin Lannister: Dead Man Shitting?

“Where will I find my lord father?”

“In the solar with Lord Tyrell and Prince Oberyn.”

Mace Tyrell and the Red Viper breaking bread together? Strange and stranger.

—Jaime and Ser Meryn Trant, upon Jaime’s return to King’s Landing

“Widow’s blood, this one is called, for the color. A cruel potion. It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons.”

—Grand Maester Pycelle, during Tyrion’s trial

“To be sure, I have much to thank your sister for. If not for her accusation at the feast, it might well be you judging me instead of me judging you.” The prince’s eyes were dark with amusement. “Who knows more of poison than the Red Viper of Dorne, after all?”

[…]

“Your father,” said Prince Oberyn, “may not live forever.”

Something about the way he said it made the hairs on the back of Tyrion’s neck bristle. Suddenly he was mindful of Elia again, and all that Oberyn had said as they crossed the field of ashes. He wants the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword. “It is not wise to speak such treasons in the Red Keep, my prince. The little birds are listening.”

“Let them. Is it treason to say a man is mortal? Valar morghulis was how they said it in Valyria of old. All men must die. And the Doom came and proved it true.”

—Prince Oberyn Martell and Tyrion, in Tyrion’s cell

He found his father where he knew he’d find him, seated in the dimness of the privy tower, bedrobe hiked up around his hips.

[…]

For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosened in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.

Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold.

—from Tyrion’s assassination of Tywin during his escape from the black cells

The King’s Hand was rotting visibly. His face had taken on a greenish tinge, and his eyes were deeply sunken, two black pits. Fissures had opened in his cheeks, and a foul white fluid was seeping through the joints of his splendid gold-and-crimson armor to pool beneath his body.

[…]

Red-eyed and pale, Cersei climbed the steps to kneel above their father, drawing Tommen down beside her. The boy recoiled at the sight, but his mother seized his wrist before he could pull away.“Pray,” she whispered, and Tommen tried. But he was only eight and Lord Tywin was a horror. One desperate breath of air, then the king began to sob.“Stop that!” Cersei said. Tommen turned his head and doubled over, retching. His crown fell off and rolled across the marble floor. His mother pulled back in disgust, and all at once the king was running for the doors, as fast as his eight-year-old legs could carry him.

“Ser Osmund, relieve me,” Jaime said sharply, as Kettleblack turned to chase the crown. He handed the man the golden sword and went after his king. In the Hall of Lamps he caught him, beneath the eyes of two dozen startled septas. “I’m sorry,” Tommen wept. “I will do better on the morrow. Mother says a king must show the way, but the smell made me sick.”

This will not do. Too many eager ears and watching eyes.“Best we go outside, Your Grace.” Jaime led the boy out to where the air was as fresh and clean as King’s Landing ever got. Twoscore gold cloaks had been posted around the plaza to guard the horses and the litters. He took the king off to the side, well away from everyone, and sat him down upon the marble steps. “I wasn’t scared,” the boy insisted. “The smell made me sick. Didn’t it make you sick? How could you bear it, Uncle, ser?”

—Jaime, Cersei, and Tommen, during Tywin’s funeral.

I’m just saying: means, motive, opportunity.

------------------------------------------------

And there's this:

Pycelle sputtered. “This man is... he is unfit...”

“Do not presume to speak to me of fitness. Not after the stinking mockery you made of my lord father’s corpse.”

“Your Grace cannot think...” He raised a spotted hand, as if to ward off a blow. “The silent sisters removed Lord Tywin’s bowels and organs, drained his blood... every care was taken... his body was stuffed with salts and fragrant herbs...”

“Oh, spare me the disgusting details. I smelled the results of your care. Lord Qyburn’s healing arts saved my brother’s life, and I do not doubt that he will serve the king more ably than that simpering eunuch.”

Edited November 6, 2015 by WindyNights

[Dev F]

Okay, so having said all that? The reason I like that almost detached, agnostic or nearly neutral viewpoint is it specifically lets me make up my own damned mind about what is going on. Viewing everything from that remove really has enhanced the tale. I don't know why Doran has this almost sacred "I'm watching the children play" thing going on. I don't know what he thinks about his brother dying. I'm not being issued an invitation to reception-of-the-narrative bias.

 

I suppose. Though for me, there was never a point in the series when I felt, "Man, Martin is really beating me over the head with what I'm supposed to think about this character; I wish he were more circumspect!" If anything, a character who is viewed through the filter of another character's biases seems to create more room for interpretation than a largely objective viewpoint does.

 

I get all the rest of it -- that there's something unique and interesting about Doran as a character, that there's thematic resonance in his interest in the young and innocent, etc., etc. But I can't stop feeling that when Martin marshals his abilities most effectively, he's more than capable of creating a story that works on those levels and works as a taut dramatic narrative.

 

And this may be an "agree to disagree" moment, because I'm sure some of this is simply about the way I tend to view writing of any sort. I know a lot of other people tend to sort of give an author the benefit of the doubt: if he chose to write something a certain way, and the writing in question does enough things right and nothing egregiously wrong, it's generally preferable to some hypothetical alternative. And often preferable to whatever nonhypothetical alternative the producers charged with adapting the author's work might come up with.

 

As for me, though, in real life I'm a developmental editor. My job is to examine people's writing for major weaknesses and minor flaws, and suggest ways they can adjust their work to eliminate them. So the notion that we should privilege what the original author wrote just because that's the way he wrote it is entirely alien to me. (Geez, you should hear some of the arguments I've had with friends who are J. R. R. Tolkien fans over the fact that the Lord of the Rings movies cut out Tom Bombadil. They're sputtering with indignation over the fact that Peter Jackson cut such a crucial element of the books, and I'm arguing that of course they cut such an inane and self-indulgent digression -- I would cut it from the books themselves if I could!)

Edited November 6, 2015 by Dev F

[mac123x]

As for me, though, in real life I'm a developmental editor. My job is to examine people's writing for major weaknesses and minor flaws, and suggest ways they can adjust their work to eliminate them. So the notion that we should privilege what the original author wrote just because that's the way he wrote it is entirely alien to me. (Geez, you should hear some of the arguments I've had with friends who are J. R. R. Tolkien fans over the fact that the Lord of the Rings movies cut out Tom Bombadil. They're sputtering with indignation over the fact that Peter Jackson cut such a crucial element of the books, and I'm arguing that of course they cut such an inane and self-indulgent digression -- I would cut it from the books themselves if I could!)

 

Could you give some coaching to GRRM's editor for Winds of Winter?  Help him/her cut out 50-60 pages of food porn.

[Lady S.]

(Geez, you should hear some of the arguments I've had with friends who are J. R. R. Tolkien fans over the fact that the Lord of the Rings movies cut out Tom Bombadil. They're sputtering with indignation over the fact that Peter Jackson cut such a crucial element of the books, and I'm arguing that of course they cut such an inane and self-indulgent digression -- I would cut it from the books themselves if I could!)

Oh Lord, there are people who missed having Tom Bombadil in the LotR movies???

[stillshimpy]

DevF, your profession might influence your view, but I don't think it's an incorrect one. When a writer achieves success, a publisher is less and less likely to try and exert a needed editorial process. The writers loses all perspective -- being too close to his subject -- to voluntarily practice restraint and literary successes over the course of a series are rare enough that no one imposes that restraint. Yet a well told tale requires it.

I was just talking to a friend of mine in real life, who isn't going to be present in here, but is paramitch on the boards about these exact subjects. The easiest example is Stephen King's The Stand whatever anyone does, or doesn't think of King, the original cut on that book was a really tightly told tale. King became hugely successful and released an anniversary printing where he got to include all of the material he resented being taken out by a wise editor at the time of the first printing. The result is borderline awful and I would LOVE to find a copy of the first edition so my son could read it. Hopefully some day they will re-release the original printing, because it's so much better and so different that it is arguably a different story.

We will need to agree to disagree on how much Martin seeks to influence a reader's perception. Most of the characters we are introduced to via a POV have a very particular bias that is influenced by their loyalty to a house, their family, etc.

One of the funnest things about the prologue for this book was that, for once, the tales being told about what happened with Dany's dragons are pretty much accurate. She's been in Qarth, Mereen, etc. that amused me, because usually when events the reader knows about are related to other characters, they are tweaked by the "before mass communication" game of telephone that is present even in our own history and shapes our understanding of the world. Tywin on the Privy actually reminded me of an historian (Allison Weir, the lady likes her bias) who drew upon the works of Thomas More as source material. Thomas More discarded his historical attempts and it's really obvious why. They're wildly inaccurate and told from the Tudor viewpoint to an almost amusing degree. Thomas More has Richard III conferring with the man he has hired to murder his nephews...while seated in the privy. That's right, More had him issuing a hit on his nephews while taking a dump. Merde.

But then I also don't tend to take "this is what I intended" from an author to be gospel of anything other than their attempts to justify and explain something that they really weren't putting that much thought into at the time they wrote it. paramitch and I were specifically talking about C. S. Lewis and Lev Grossman's The Magicians triology. What Lewis had to say about his treatment of Susan in the Last Battle, how Lewis tried to correct the wide perception of her fate. This is going pretty far afield of the subject at hand, so I'll just sum up by saying: I agree, a stronger editorial hand would aid Martin, but success in fiction is like bagging a unicorn at the magical creatures hunt from nearly all sides. Publishing, agents, and absolutely writers. It's rare enough that everyone involved starts desperately trying to figure out how to hold the unicorn captive, slippery beasts that Unicorn of Lucrative Fiction production are.

The thing about Tywin smelling is that well other than poison there's no explanation for it.

His bowels were cut open when he died and unless they've embalmed the man....and they clearly haven't, eyes sinking, etc. ....there's a pretty clear explanation: He's a nearly week old corpse in a place that is bucketing down rain, in a marble church ....marble sweats...they've stored a gut wound corpse in a petri dish, essentially. Unless they embalmed him (which involves removing all fluids, etc) then....there's no big mystery about the smell. Although, I grant you, the facial expression description does sound decidedly weird.

But as for the "it would shut down his bladder and bowels and...."

Dude was doing the old rumpy-pumpy with Shae right before his death. I'm going to put it down to "It does strike me as unlikely that someone dying from an overload of toxins in their system would be getting it on...."

Also, here's yet another problem with the whole: Pycelle mentioned these poisons were stolen from him! I can't think of a reason in the world that Oberyn wouldn't simply bring his own. It's not like he had to clear security at the airport, you know?

But I understand it's a popular fan theory and heaven knows there'd be plenty of time to form them in between books, but back to that "the author intends"....people don't understand their motivations in every interaction or creation. George Martin isn't living in a vacuum either so I do wonder if any fan reactions end up helping to inspire any particular direction for a story. Meaning only, when he puts down something on the page and adds that many details, he leaves so many doors open to keep herding that unicorn through. He may end up picking up threads because they are of interest to readers, but that doesn't necessarily mean he had the intent to do so.

I think he just made Tywin Lannister's corpse stink to high heaven because it's a detail that makes sense given a disemboweled corpse, in a humid atmosphere (take note, the rain, rain, rain, came down, down, down) and far more importantly, it is a way to illustrate how irrational Cersei is. She just denies a reality she doesn't like. Then lashes out like a lunatic when anyone can't play along. Like her Eight-year-old throwing up because if you're hanging out in a room with a corpse that's a week old, don't be surprised if it smells worse than the dairy walk-in fridge after a massive power failure.

A line is given to Pycelle about having done everything they could, but unless they embalmed the man (and they didn't, eyes, sinking, corpse stinking and Pycelle even refers to stages of decomposition) that was going to happen. Furthermore, it's actually not a splendid idea to keep an embalmed corpse hanging around for that long.

Or in a nod to Dev F's school of editing the tl;dr version? Corpses rot and then they stink. Tis the way of them.

Edited November 6, 2015 by stillshimpy

[John Potts]

"Oberyn poisoned Tywin" doesn't make sense to me, because why would he go to such lengths against the Mountain if all he cared about was killing the pair of them? If he didn't need a confession then why toy with the Mountain once he'd won? If he'd already "killed" Tywin with poison, a confession was rather pointless: the sentence had already been carried out (admittedly, the book does NOT have the "Who gave the order?" bit the show does, explicitly naming Tywin). For my money (not that I'm actually putting any real money on it!) he stinks because he was (IIRC) gut shot and probably not found for a while (like Stalin's death IRL, the fact that everyone was shit scared of him meant folks probably didn't rush to check he was OK when he was asleep or on the privy).

 

Lady S Oh Lord, there are people who missed having Tom Bombadil in the LotR movies???

 

 

Yeah verily, I say unto thee this, Lady S, daughter of Lord S*: wondrous though it may be to believe such folk exist, I have seen it writ with my own eyes. I've even seen people complain about Glorfindel being cut out (and I doubt even many fans remember him).

 

* Well, I'm assuming!

[Delta1212]

I'm spoilering this since I don't know if shimpy has read the next Brienne chapter yet:

Also some Dunk and Egg stuff, so close this now if you haven't read those and care about that.

Brienne is totally descended from Dunk, isn't she? Abnormally tall, similar personality, and his shield was stashed in her armory at home. I've avoided all but a few bits of Dunk & Egg related speculation up to now, but this has to be a thing.

[Haleth]

Aww, I was pissed about Glorfindel being cut!  (Tom Bom, not so much.)  Anyone who can kill a balrog deserves to be cast. ;)

 

Ahem, anyway, Tywin.  He was embalmed to some extent by the Silent Sisters who supposedly are adept at such things.  Perhaps he was too contaminated already or maybe it was a subtle FU for the acts of the Mummers.

[Mya Stone]

I'm spoilering this since I don't know if shimpy has read the next Brienne chapter yet:

Also some Dunk and Egg stuff, so close this now if you haven't read those and care about that.

Brienne is totally descended from Dunk, isn't she? Abnormally tall, similar personality, and his shield was stashed in her armory at home. I've avoided all but a few bits of Dunk & Egg related speculation up to now, but this has to be a thing.

I believe that to be true, although not explicitly said.

[Triskan]

Also, here's yet another problem with the whole: Pycelle mentioned these poisons were stolen from him! I can't think of a reason in the world that Oberyn wouldn't simply bring his own. It's not like he had to clear security at the airport, you know?

 

 

Well, in any cases, he had his own material since he poisoned his blade against the Mountain. 

 

Anyway, looking forward to read your progress through Feast, since there will be so much "new material" for you in it !

[Dev F]

DevF, your profession might influence your view, but I don't think it's an incorrect one. When a writer achieves success, a publisher is less and less likely to try and exert a needed editorial process. The writers loses all perspective -- being too close to his subject -- to voluntarily practice restraint and literary successes over the course of a series are rare enough that no one imposes that restraint. Yet a well told tale requires it

 

Absolutely. I've never had the good/bad luck to edit a real rock-star writer like GRRM, but it's clear from the finished product that the success of ASOIAF has made him more difficult to edit. The same thing was obviously true of J. K. Rowling, whose books ballooned in size after the success of the first three. But I wouldn't entirely blame the author; one of the biggest problems with a smash-hit book series is that there's tremendous pressure for the publisher to release the next volume as soon as humanly possible. So editors are much more apt to let things slide by, because digging in to every minor flaw would delay publication, and they know the thing's going to be a hit regardless. I doubt the later entries in ASOIF or the Harry Potter series underwent much more than the fastest copyedit money could buy.

 

Dude was doing the old rumpy-pumpy with Shae right before his death. I'm going to put it down to "It does strike me as unlikely that someone dying from an overload of toxins in their system would be getting it on...."

 

Interestingly enough, there's an alternate theory that proposes that it was actually Varys who poisoned Tywin, not to kill him but to keep him on the privy while the eunuch smuggled Shae into his bed for Tyrion to find. It's sort of an overly complicated gambit, though, and it wouldn't do anything to explain the smell of Tywin's corpse.

 

But in any event, you're probably right that the corpse only smells because that's what corpses do. That's actually a good example of what I meant when I said that conveying an event through a highly skewed POV often increases rather than decreases the opportunity for varied interpretations of the scene. If Areo Hotah had noted that Tywin's body smelled weird, we could pretty much assume that it was because something weird had happened to the body. But when Cersei notes it, we also have to consider the possibility that it smells perfectly normal and she's just deluding herself. (Which, in turn, is a more interesting possibility to consider, because Areo's hypothetical version of the scene is just about what happened, whereas Cersei's is also about what she feels about what happened.)

Edited November 6, 2015 by Dev F

[WindyNights]

Well they did remove all the fluids, bowels and organs. The Silent Sisters and Pycelle have gone through this before and King Robert had a gut wound and there was no mention of him stinking this badly so presumably this was unusual for some reason. There has to be a reason for that.

@John Well even if we were to say that Oberyn didn't poison Tywin, why did Oberyn want a confession out of the Mountain? I mean I don't think one would Influnce the other. To my mind, he just wanted to humiliate the Mountain and possibly make Tywin look bad in public.

Also from what I remember, the found him pretty fast. I believe ASOS mentions what time Tyrion leaves and I believe AFFC mentions that they found Tywin at the hour of the wolf which correspond to 3am - 4am. I'll have to check later but Tyrion definitely leaves after midnight when the castle was asleep.

I'm not saying it's true but I feel GRRM definitely wanted us to consider this.

@Dev F But it's not just Cersei. Even Pycelle notes it.

Edit: But yeah, maybe we've spent too much time on this. It's just an intersecting theory.

Edited November 6, 2015 by WindyNights

[Reader of Books]

Here is how Tywin died 

Tyrion killed him using a crossbow.

. The end.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so I've been through another Brienne chapter all the up to the next Brienne chapter.

In no particular order, okay weird, Brienne grew up with Duncan the Tall's shield in her armory? Interesting. She can't really be descended from him though, since he goes on to be a Kingsguard, doesn't he? When the Dunk and Egg tales start out he's a virgin, he never does seem to find that tall puppeteer and I'm pretty sure he was Kingsguard. Plus, he doesn't even know who his parents are, and he grew up in Flea Bottom.

So Brienne's family might have some attachment to him, but it would be difficult for them to be related. Fun easter egg with that shield though.

Pod and Brienne's road trip is in the books though? Interesting. Hopefully Pod will help poor Brienne up her searching game, because bless her heart, she's truly terrible at it. I know she's supposed to be shy and finds talking to people difficult, but almost every person she asks bellows some version of "Yeah, you aren't the first person to ask about Sansa Stark, or Dontos either!" Poor Brienne can't seem to understand that either someone locked up Sansa tighter than a banker's conscience and well away from prying eyes. Or at least she'd have the wits not to traveling with a drunken fool. Brienne's literally wandering around looking for someone dressed as a fool.

So I was glad to see Pod show up, because hopefully he'll bring a little bit more thinking to the endeavor. Brienne is terrible at deceit so she can't bring herself to think in the "What would I do if I'd just murdered the king?" way. Like...not return to Dontos' hometown. Oy.

Harsh fate for the woman who convinced Duskendale to imprison the mad King.

Checked in with Sansa at the Eyrie and the singer they are framing for the murder. However, it's truly impossible to feel sorry for the man, even though Littlefinger had his eyes put-out -- shades of Mark Smeaton's gruesome fate, except poor Smeaton was pretty much without a doubt, innocent of all accusations -- I'd feel worse for the guy only he was going to rape Sansa and he was playing loudly to cover Lysa's attempts to murder Sansa. So whereas Petyr is practically doing a creepy Ramsay impersonation, having the guy whittled away, it's hard to feel much sympathy for him. Plus, he could pretty easily save himself by taking a leap. I guess Tyrion's debt the jailer there is in his mouth, by the way.

Checked in with Asha. More about Seastone Chair and much ballyhoo about the Kingsmoot, but all the in-book PR for "this will be exciting, THE event in eight thousand years! Be there on Friday, Friday, Friday!" it's just not all that interesting.

Nothing particularly illuminating in Cersei's chapter either, other than burning the darned Tower of the Hand and again, much paranoia. So clearly Lady Merryweather is up to all sorts of things, between claiming that she saw Tyrion poison Joffrey (I had assumed Cersei made her do so, but apparently not) and trying to make friends with her. I wonder if her poor maid really is spying on her, or if Lady Merryweather just needs to replace Cersei's doomed maid with someone of her own choosing? Either way, sucks to be Cersei's maid.

I'm not sure who the heck Aurane Waters is meant to be, but in this story it doesn't actually work out too well for the bastard children of Kings, so let's hope for his sake he just has the hair color.

Arianne seducing Arys Oakheart was just cracking me up. Plan your next Scheming Vacation on the Beautiful Shores of Dorne. Bring a militia for safety. Good grief, way to go, Dorne. Making Kings Landing look like relatively uncomplicated plotting zone. Also...I don't think I knew that Doran had two sons.

I admit, my interest in the Iron Islander's story was improved by having Asha as a POV character for part of it. Dumbhair just wasn't grabbing me.

Also, did the Brotherhood bring back The Hound? That's an interesting twist too.

Edited November 6, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Autarch]

 

 

So Brienne's family might have some attachment to him, but it would be difficult for them to be related. Fun easter egg with that shield though.

 

This also this line of Jaime's to Brienne (when they're in Harrenhal baths): "Are you as thick as a castle wall?"

It's worth pointing out that the same line is said about Small Paul early in Storm.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Autarch

[Terra Nova]

Being a member of the Kingsguard though only require celibacy from that point onward. Just like the Night's Watch, and we see with Jeor Mormont that some Northern Lord may decide in the later years of his life to pledge himself to the Watch out of honor and duty, after securing his legacy... in case of poor Jeor, his disgraceful son proved to be somewhat of a slaver though ^^' 

 

Also, Shimpy can really start to grasp now just how many characters where left out of Tv!Dorne. Small wonder that those Water Gardens looked as crowded as Castamere after being Castamered.

(The same could be said for the Iron Islands, but I guess she's somehow less than thrilled by the Ironborn ^^')

Edited November 6, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ambi76]

Um, I'm not quite sure why you think putting on the white cloak makes you incapable of fathering children, shimpy. Just saying. Also Dunk is already at least forty when he joins Eggs KG, so there is that too.

 

Cersei getting "not being able to stand without help"- drunk at Tommen and Marg's wedding cracks me up. So does her having the hots for Aurane Waters because he reminds her of Rhaegar.

Edited November 6, 2015 by ambi76

[Which Tyler]

I'm spoilering this since I don't know if shimpy has read the next Brienne chapter yet:

Also some Dunk and Egg stuff, so close this now if you haven't read those and care about that.

Brienne is totally descended from Dunk, isn't she? Abnormally tall, similar personality, and his shield was stashed in her armory at home. I've avoided all but a few bits of Dunk & Egg related speculation up to now, but this has to be a thing.

Basically, yes

I think there's a SSM that Dunk has 5 or 7 descendent in the ASOIAF books. IIRC the proposals are Brienne (also see Dunk's shield in the armoury), Hodor (Via Old Nan in the next D&E book); Left and Right; Lemoncloak and a brace of Cleganes. There was a thread on westeros.org about it when the SSM came out

ETA

Found the thread, and my memory was faulty: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/57717-ser-duncans-progeny/

Edited November 6, 2015 by Which Tyler

[jellyroll2]

GRRM has said that there are three characters in the current story who are descended from Dunk. It is speculated that Brienne is one, Hodor is another.

[mac123x]

We know little of what happened to Duncan between the events of the novellas and Aegon V's ascension.  It's possible he had a brief marriage to one of Brienne's ancestors, or (more likely) just knocked one of them up and the illegitimacy angle was covered up

[Delta1212]

Well, one thing that would make Brienne being Dunk's descendant fun, too:

Spoilering out of an abundance of caution, but it really has no bearing on anything in the story and is just a little backstory factoid from World of Ice and Fire, GRRM's "history book" of Westeros:

Lady Rohanne, the Red Widow, eventually goes on to marry that Gerold whose letters she was so taken with and has a number of children including Tytos of "Tywin, son of" fame.

So if Brienne is related to Duncan, then Dunk and Rohanne's descendants are playing out their own little star-crossed pseudo-romance.

[stillshimpy]

Um, I'm not quite sure why you think putting on the white cloak makes you incapable of fathering children, shimpy. Just saying. Also Dunk is already at least forty when he joins Eggs KG, so there is that too.

I don't, and I suppose it is possible Duncan married and his wife died after giving birth to a child...because people generally don't put the shields of their illegitimate ancestry on the walls, Ambi.

[nksarmi]

Ok does this mean you have read Cersei III and seen the Maggy the Frog prophesy in the books? I believe you have - if so, um thoughts on what the series left out?

 

And I look forward to your thoughts on what I believe is the next Sam chapter.

Edited November 6, 2015 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

Yes I have, nksarmi and I came away from that saying, "Who the hell is Melara?" Season five

I was familiar with the witch, who they ...changed significantly for the show and I'm assuming might actually be the terrifying Crone Arya ran into. But was Melara the girl with her?

[nksarmi]

Yes I have, nksarmi and I came away from that saying, "Who the hell is Melara?" Season five

I was familiar with the witch, who they ...changed significantly for the show and I'm assuming might actually be the terrifying Crone Arya ran into. But was Melara the girl with her?

I believe so.

 

Ok so I am curious - given the part that made it into the show.....what did the unsullied make of this?  I mean, given that I believe it is the only flashback the show has done so far - did you think it was significant?  Do you guys have pages and pages of thoughts to what it meant for Cersei? (Readers have lol!)

 

And the part that wasn't in the show.....do YOU have a thought to what/who it refers to?  I admit that I thought one thing at first, but since coming to these boards - I am just about convinced it means something else.

Edited November 6, 2015 by nksarmi

[Triskan]

And I look forward to your thoughts on what I believe is the next Sam chapter.

 

 

Yep of the upcoming bunch (up until

the Kingsmoot

), it's the chapter I'm most looking forward to reach !

[WindyNights]

I believe so.

Ok so I am curious - given the part that made it into the show.....what did the unsullied make of this? I mean, given that I believe it is the only flashback the show has done so far - did you think it was significant? Do you guys have pages and pages of thoughts to what it meant for Cersei? (Readers have lol!)

And the part that wasn't in the show.....do YOU have a thought to what/who it refers to? I admit that I thought one thing at first, but since coming to these boards - I am just about convinced it means something else.

The prophecy isn't explained in full until near the end of AFFC.

Right now, I think shimpy has only got pieces and bits of it so don't jump too ahead of yourself.

I believe the valonquar especially doesn't show up until a little after the middle of the book.

Edited November 6, 2015 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

Well, what has been covered in the book so far wasn't the that extensive. Season five

and honestly, no. We really didn't end up with pages and pages of speculation on that because it was pretty straightforward on the show: The king will have a bunch of children, but you'll have three. All will wear crowns of gold and all will wear shrouds of gold too. So it seemed to be saying, "Yeah, you'll marry the King and you'll be queen, but your children are all going to die while you're still alive to see it.

In the book it talked about Cersei being outshone by a younger queen and there was Margaery, so that also seemed fairly straightforward. We did spend a lot of time trying to figure out who was with her though and apparently, that chick's name was Melara. Interesting. Means nothing to me right now though. Honestly, there was all kinds of speculation about her, who she could be, etc. etc. but I'm drawing a complete blank on that name.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Scratch that. Forgot that the different parts of the prophecy are revealed later.

Okay, any thoughts on the part of the prophecy that the show left out? 'Valonqar' means younger brother in Valyrian. People have long speculated about who the Valonqar will be and who the younger, more beautiful queen will be. Jaime and Daenerys seem to be the obvious choices, but there are some who speculate Sansa will wind up being the younger/beautiful queen. Cersei suspects Tyrion and Margaery, and this paranoia influences most of her decisions after Joffrey's death. Many people were disappointed that the show left out the Valonqar part, but I understand why they did, and I wish they had left out the entire prophecy, as I don't feel like it added much to show Cersei's story, nor did it fit the character. I didn't really like it in the book either, but at least it fit with her craziness in the books.

Edited November 6, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[WindyNights]

@Imp That hasn't shown up yet. Spoiler tag that.

Edited November 6, 2015 by WindyNights

[ImpinAintEasy]

Well, what has been covered in the book so far wasn't the that extensive. Season five

and honestly, no. We really didn't end up with pages and pages of speculation on that because it was pretty straightforward on the show: The king will have a bunch of children, but you'll have three. All will wear crowns of gold and all will wear shrouds of gold too. So it seemed to be saying, "Yeah, you'll marry the King and you'll be queen, but your children are all going to die while you're still alive to see it.

In the book it talked about Cersei being outshone by a younger queen and there was Margaery, so that also seemed fairly straightforward. We did spend a lot of time trying to figure out who was with her though and apparently, that chick's name was Melara. Interesting. Means nothing to me right now though. Honestly, there was all kinds of speculation about her, who she could be, etc. etc. but I'm drawing a complete blank on that name.

 

I think there was some speculation about whether the girl with Cersei was Lyanna Stark or Elia Martell. Also, there were some questions about which prince Cersei expected to marry, Rhaegar or a Martell. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[stillshimpy]

Uh...guys? All that's been covered in the books so far is that there will come another queen, younger than Cersei. So...no freaking clue who or what Valonqar is. I've just finished the chapter with Arys Oakheart having an affair with Arianne and proving, once again, while vows of lifelong celibacy are just a bad.plan.altogether.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Uh...guys? All that's been covered in the books so far is that there will come another queen, younger than Cersei. So...no freaking clue who or what Valonqar is. I've just finished the chapter with Arys Oakheart having an affair with Arianne and proving, once again, while vows of lifelong celibacy are just a bad.plan.altogether.

 

I'm sorry about that. I forgot that not all of her Maggy flashbacks happen in the same chapter. I wasn't a big fan of them to begin with, so my memory was cloudy. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by ImpinAintEasy

[nksarmi]

I thought the reveal happened all at once too but I was being vague just in case. I figured if she hadn't read it yet shimpy would just say, nope nothing yet. Sorry.

[Haleth]

Just as a note , Cersei refers to Tyrion as her twisted little valonqar in her first chapter, before she learns he escaped.

[Delta1212]

This is part of why I'm actually reading along the whole way on this book, because there is a bunch of little things I know I'll want to comment on, and I definitely don't remember when they come up with enough fidelity to pinpoint when shimpy has gotten there without reading myself.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

It's cool, I know things like that can happen :-)

Kind of like the time someone here was all "Oh my god, did you notice anything about Jon's dream?1? "Uh, he thought something about Bran being brave, right?"

Next chapter with Jon: Reveals he's a warg.

Since the chapters don't have numbers that are readily accessible, this is sort of bound to happen from time-to-time, you know?

I did wonder for a minute what I was supposed to find so exciting about learning the name Melara ;-)

[Delta1212]

For instance, in the chapter I'm just catching up on (I'm a little behind):

"Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel"

A wheel of... time?

James Rigney is better known by his pen name Robert Jordan.

[mac123x]

I've just finished the chapter with Arys Oakheart having an affair with Arianne and proving, once again, while vows of lifelong celibacy are just a bad.plan.altogether.

 

I liked that chapter because I like all the Dorne chapters, but good grief it needed editing.  Arys feels guilty for screwing Arianne and breaking his vows.  Okay, we get it, 10 pages of inner monologue would have been sufficient, we didn't need 20.  (I exaggerate but only a little).  Despite that, I love the reveal of Arianne's plans and her motives for those plans.  So much better than the "let's kill an innocent girl as REVENGE!!" shit in the show.

[jellyroll2]

Haven't read the last few replies so not sure if someone mentioned this but Maggy isn't the Ghost of High Heart (Arya's crone). She's actually, if I recall correctly

Jeyne Westerling's great(?)-grandmother.