Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[WindyNights]

But if that is the case, shouldn't GRRM either a) promote that version or b) have written it completely different?

As for making it better, isn't that a little bit incongruous with Shimpy's project? She's supposed to read the novels as is, not with us telling her "Oh, don't read that chapter, the book will be way better this way" or "the novels make more sense if you read it in a different way". Isn't that a little bit like saying "Ignore all the bad parts in the show, and only focus on the good"?

Not at all because she's not ignoring or skipping anything.

There's just a better flow to it once you realize that the first half of ADWD was written as one book with AFFC

And GRRM wrote it

the way he did because he couldn't fit all the POVs in one book not for any stylistic reason.

[Holmbo]

It always amazes me when I hear people read that way. Like I can't even imagine jumping ahead in the story as I figure I'll read something out of context and the whole flow is messed up. not reading a book in the order is was written is such a foreign concept to me. LOL

Me too. I hear about people reading the last page in a book and I'm like "why would you do that! What if there are spoilers!?"

The only way I read out of order is that I usually skip the foreword if there is one. If I liked the book enough I'll read that after I've finished.

[glowbug]

I'm not sure why we're spoiler tagging this discussion but I'll follow the crowd.

I vote that shimpy reads the books in publication order. Even if Martin himself advocated reading it in chronological order I'd still say read it in publication order. If Martin wanted it read chronologically he should have found a way to write it that way. I disagree with his choice to break it up the way he did but he made the choice. Why are we spoiler tagging this discussion? Knowing that books 4 and 5 happen concurrently until the latter part of book 5 doesn't really spoil anything about the story and I think it's better to know that before going into AFfC. I read the books long after their publication dates and knew in advance that that was how the last two books were structured and it didn't spoil anything for me. Were people who read AFfC as it was published surprised by this or was it well known beforehand? I would imagine some sort of announcement was made so people didn't freak out when most of their favorite characters were missing.

As for Dorne:

I don't hate Arianne like some people do but I wasn't a fan of her character either. Doran, on the other hand, I do like. It's been a while since I read AFfC but I remember not caring for the Dorne chapters or any of the characters until Doran's plan was revealed and learning that made me like his character and made the Dorne plot worthwhile in retrospect. The way Dorne is handled in the show is a tragedy.

[ElizaD]

I hope that

stillshimpy reads the books as published. The fan-suggested reading order is an artificial experience, not a director's cut. AFFC was released in 2005, ADWD in 2011, and though GRRM didn't intend to have such a big gap that's what happened and consequently ADWD isn't just "early AFFC chapters for Jon/Dany/Tyrion plus some stuff that takes place after AFFC's timeline ends" but the result of a lot of rewrites and reorganizations of ideas that existed during the AFFC process, as well as later additions and changes. The reading order is like watching fan-edited versions of the Hobbit trilogy or the Star Wars prequels and saying they work pretty well after all. Stillshimpy has a lot more knowledge of the world and the characters than the casual show viewer, but the reading order is not an unspoiled experience: it includes the basic assumption that there's something so wrong with AFFC/ADWD that you have to start jumping through hoops (and risk glimpsing the conclusions or beginnings of chapters you haven't yet gotten to) in order to enjoy or understand the books. AFFC and ADWD won't be one giant book unless GRRM himself has them edited/published as such. If there's a possibility that some parallels are lost, like Cersei/Dany/Jon as rulers, well, that's what was published. But the delay also created new parallels: for example, if Jon had been in AFFC we would probably have gotten the old version of the Slynt chapter where he was hanged, but in ADWD that chapter was improved by having Jon behead Slynt instead - as a result there's a stronger echo of Ned and Robb that wouldn't have been there when Jon ordered a hanging. If the books can't stand on their own (and plenty of people do like them as they are), that says something about them that shouldn't be ignored. The suggested reading order is the result of personal opinions and decisions that other fans might disagree with, not the vision GRRM ultimately accepted: as much as I would have liked to see ADWD end with the battles of ice and fire as the natural conclusion to the Meereenese/Northern arcs, they're going to be in TWOW (maybe in 2016?) and different from what they would have been if they'd been cut, rearranged, written and edited for ADWD. I'd like to see stillshimpy's unspoiled realization of "wait, where's Jon/Dany/Tyrion?" that readers who hadn't followed ASOIAF news got when they bought AFFC

.

Edited October 12, 2015 by ElizaD

[bobbybuilderton]

I'm not sure why we're spoiler tagging this discussion but I'll follow the crowd.

I vote that shimpy reads the books in publication order. Even if Martin himself advocated reading it in chronological order I'd still say read it in publication order. If Martin wanted it read chronologically he should have found a way to write it that way. I disagree with his choice to break it up the way he did but he made the choice. Why are we spoiler tagging this discussion? Knowing that books 4 and 5 happen concurrently until the latter part of book 5 doesn't really spoil anything about the story and I think it's better to know that before going into AFfC. I read the books long after their publication dates and knew in advance that that was how the last two books were structured and it didn't spoil anything for me. Were people who read AFfC as it was published surprised by this or was it well known beforehand? I would imagine some sort of announcement was made so people didn't freak out when most of their favorite characters were missing.

As for Dorne:

I don't hate Arianne like some people do but I wasn't a fan of her character either. Doran, on the other hand, I do like. It's been a while since I read AFfC but I remember not caring for the Dorne chapters or any of the characters until Doran's plan was revealed and learning that made me like his character and made the Dorne plot worthwhile in retrospect. The way Dorne is handled in the show is a tragedy.

I spoiler tagged it because of how the unsullied would watch the show. They didn't want to know anything beyond what was in the actual show. I didn't know how strict they wanted to be about information like that. Personally I think we've been a tiiiny bit loose with the info in this thread, but I am not a moderator, OP, or the first timer so I have no idea

[Mya Stone]

The discussion is spoiler tagged because it refers to things that happen past where shimpy has read.

[Triskan]

Can we at least state openly

for shimpy that book 4 and 5 take place in the same time ?

[mac123x]

Oh....poo.  Well as luck would have it, I like Book Oberyn even more than I liked Show Oberyn....so that's gonna really suck eventually.  

 

Jeez, that story about seeing poor Tyrion as a baby was even worse than in the show, because Oberyn means it to be at least a little spiteful and unfriendly.  Not that I actually really blame him for disliking Tyrion -- not based on Tyrion, but just....he's from the family that killed members of his family, people Oberyn loved.  It makes sense that he has no interest in whether or not he hurts Tyrion's feelings.  

 

 

I think the Show repurposing Oberyn's story about Tyrion's birth was one of the times the show improved on the source material.  Similarly, I think the show version of Jaime's hottub talk was better.

[Delta1212]

Can we at least state openly

for shimpy that book 4 and 5 take place in the same time ?

Well,

if she's not aware already, it actually might be interesting to get the reaction of someone who doesn't know that going in, as everyone I know who has read the books knew about the split before reading AFfC

[Protar]

I agree with Delta. That should be interesting. 

[stillshimpy]

Hi....? 

 

 

 

Well shimpy - God bless her - seems to be reading them in chapter order

 

Well, I know it's a radical approach and all, but I've always been an innovator :-D  I eat my bread sliced too.  That's right, I'm that daring.  Oh and the tires on my cars -- steel yourselves -- are round.   Just something new I'm trying out!  I'll let you know how it goes :-p   

 

So let me guess, there are novellas or supplemental books or stories that take place in the past?  I tell you this with crystal ball like precision because the person who gave me the books and my BIL told me.  I'm not precisely sure what they contain. but I think they are prequels, vs. supplementals?  I figured I'd read what ever was out there in the order they were released.  Since I'm sort of Mirrorversing Readers as my own personal Unsullied group:  See what Readers experienced, wonder how they reacted to changes within the show.   Figure out how the Readers of the world saw this tale.  

 

I mean, there has been a bunch of gobsmackers for me, and I did ask if would be okay to skip the Red Wedding....and was told that it probably wouldn't be any fun for me to do that and that the show version was so much more godawful that I likely won't pass delicately out or anything.   But other than that, yeah, I figured I'd just read the chapters in order. 

 

I actually can see how someone might have a habit of skipping chapters on the initial read though, because man, it is an act of will to just push on through most of Daeny's chapters.   On a first read, people would have to have favorite characters and ones of whom they aren't as fond.  For instance the first time I saw Samwell's name at the top of a chapter, my reaction was not "Whee!! At long last!!" it was more like, "I will pitch an entire fit if this is an entire chapter about Sam dreaming about what kind of food he wants to eat ....and then falling down....but here we go"  with a grimly set jaw.   

Turned out to be a complete unfair assumption on my part and I finally started to see why people like him.  It took Triskan  (might have been Protar, come to think of it)  urging me to pay closer attention to Jon's chapters to actually make me do so, because I admit, I was skimming -- copped to it here -- and was told that I was going to miss some interesting material if I did that.   Triskan or Protar was right one that one.  

 

So I don't plan on skipping any chapters unless you all think "Oh no, seriously, we all pretty much conferred and what would make this more fun?  If we asked her to skip this specific chapter".....no one here has steered me wrong yet, so yes, I'm willing to skip a chapter if you guys think that will add something to the tale.  

Edited October 12, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

This bit: "Since I'm sort of Mirrorversing Readers as my own personal Unsullied group: See what Readers experienced, wonder how they reacted to changes within the show. Figure out how the Readers of the world saw this tale."

Should really answer the main question raised in the spoilered discussion, I think.

ETA:

Since we're talking about something a little more extensive than just skipping a chapter

Edited October 12, 2015 by Delta1212

[Protar]

There are prequels out there Shimpy - The Dunk and Egg novellas. The three of them were released from 1998 to 2010 so the ship has sailed for reading all the material in exact reading order. But it could be fun for you to read them in between books 3 and 4. I think that's a good place to read them. 

 

That isn't what we were talking about in spoiler tags though. I think we should elect to keep that a secret :P

[glowbug]

The discussion is spoiler tagged because it refers to things that happen past where shimpy has read.

I hope my comment didn't come across as snarky. It wasn't intended that way. I genuinely wanted to know. I know the particulars about the structure need to be spoiler tagged I just wasnt sure that the mention the concurrent timelines would spoil anything. I get it and will of course respect the rules. :) I think it may be worth discussing whether it should be mentioned after shimpy finishes book three since it was my impression that the structure was announced by GRRM himself before book four was released. But I could be wrong about that.

Edited October 12, 2015 by glowbug

[Delta1212]

I hope my comment didn't come across as snarky. It wasn't intended that way. I genuinely wanted to know. I know the particulars about the structure need to be spoiler tagged I just wasnt sure that the mention the concurrent timelines would spoil anything. I get it and will of course respect the rules. :) I think it may be worth discussing whether it should be mentioned after shimpy finishes book four since it was my impression that the structure as announced by GRRM himself before book four was released. But I could be wrong about that.

I assume

it will probably come up at some point during book 4 when a bunch of characters are randomly not there. Although it would be fun if she didn't know book 5 would backtrack and cover the missing ground until she got there, I'm not really expecting that secret to be kept so long.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so because I basically asked "What in the world is going on in there?"   Mya has explained to me what the gig is....and I feel like a complete moron spoiler tagging this, but just in case some future Unsullied ever wanders in here

that books four and five are basically one giant story, but were released in two huge chunks with a giant ass break in the middle amounting to a decade between certain character arcs,  right?   That there are three characters who I won't see for all of book four and you guys were trying to figure out if I should be encouraged to read those character chapters out of order? 

 

I mean, if I'm getting the spirit of it wrong, I apologize but that's what I gather and....then she told me who the three characters are and my reaction was "Uh yeah, no.  I think I can go a full book without any of those characters."  Mainly because the only "I had to wait to find out..." break I would have to take would be the amount of time it takes for me to read one book....and wait for the next one to download to my Kindle, so there's just no way I'd have the same sense of frustration you guys did. Honestly, I think I'd just end up feeling lost as hell if I tried to read books 4 and 5 in some spliced chronological order

 

That isn't what we were talking about in spoiler tags though. I think we should elect to keep that a secret :P

Let me explain something, that will probably help with why that secret was out for me already:

I have friends who write for a living. We were discussing -- among other things -- Jim Butcher's books and how the man just lost the plot on his own series, but how incredibly difficult it is for an author....any author....having achieved a commercial success....to self-edit any longer. In this day and age....it's like catching your own pet Dragon....it's so rare. It's also such a dream come true for a publishing house that they let the author do whatever they want, because they are doing the dance of profit joy. So I had already had the "narrative bloat and what it will lead to" discussion after reading the first book here, without anything specific other than "Martin got wickedly carried away with world-building....but who can blame him? A commercial success for a writer is practically unheard of at this point. But Butcher still really needs to cut the shit. ;-)

Edited October 12, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Yeah, that's kind of what I figured.

Edit: In fairness, I've read good things about the "fan cut" beyond just satisfying some impatience, but my above statement stands.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Delta1212

[Haleth]

I wasn't even aware there is a fan cut out there. I also have not read any of the Dunk and Egg books and don't feel like I've missed anything. I'm sure they're fun but not necessary to understand ASOIAF.

[nksarmi]

I didn't know there was a fan cut either (or about supplemental writing - I only learned about the "world book" on this site).  However, I did know about the chronological order so I sort of thought it was "public knowledge."  I mean I knew about it when I wasn't on a fan site like this and didn't really know much more about GoT than one could deduce from social media coverage.  I wasn't avoiding spoilers exactly, but I wasn't seeking them out.

 

But while I can see why some people need to read things "in order" - I kind of think GRRM's writing and separate stories invite you to read a book however you darn well please.  So if you get to the end of a Jon chapter and know there aren't any other PoVs that are likely to impact his story, skipping ahead to his next chapter isn't really going to confuse the heck out of you.  Or at least, that is what I reasoned when I read the books lol.  I did similar things with Dany because she was rather isolated as well.  It's harder to do with the KL group because they often intersect and interact.  I don't recommend it as a reading style, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that many readers did it that way even on their first read through.  Either that, or I'm just really weird which I am totally ok with. :)

Edited October 12, 2015 by nksarmi

[Protar]

It's not necessary to read the Dunk and Egg books, but they are nice little pieces (considerably less grim then the main series) and there's a few easter eggs. 

[Lady S.]

The Dunk and Egg stories were just recently released all together in one book, btw, called A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, with Harry Lloyd narrating the audiobook. The other "prequels" are about the Dance of the Dragons, a civil war mentioned on the show in Shireen's fateful last ep, and the audio versions are narrated by Iain Glenn. So for anyone who just likes listening to Iain Glenn's voice, those recordings are up on youtube. But if you're just not that into the world-building, you can skip the history of the Dance of the Dragons and the World Book. The Dunk and Egg stories make for better companion pieces to main series imo since they're actual stories, not dry records of fictional history, and they're only set less than 100 years back from where the main story starts, but the main reason I'd recommend them is because I think it's impossible to read them and think Martin really is the nihilist he's sometimes made out to be.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Lady S.

[Triskan]

Just in case, for those out there curious to take a look at the "fan-cut", here is the most commonly admitted one : 

 

http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-readerfriendly-combined-reading-order-for-a

[WindyNights]

I would say that the Dunk and Egg prequels are a little important for book 5.

For instance

it gives the Bloodraven reveal more oomph and not leaving you scratching your head wondering who this guy is. It also establishes more backstory for the Golden Company and if Aegon and Varys are Blackfyre/Brightflame/Bittersteel descendants well there's that too.

[Delta1212]

I would say that the Dunk and Egg prequels are a little important for book 5.

For instance

it gives the Bloodraven reveal more oomph and not leaving you scratching your head wondering who this guy is. It also establishes more backstory for the Golden Company and if Aegon and Varys are Blackfyre/Brightflame/Bittersteel descendants well there's that too.

I wouldn't say they're important, as I still haven't read them, but I'm aware of the bits you've mentioned and agree it would probably be worthwhile to read them. I'd second the suggestion of doing them after book three, and would actually read along myself at that point for a first read through. Edited October 12, 2015 by Delta1212

[Protar]

I second that notion. I'd love to see Shimpy reacting to something entirely new :)

[jellyroll2]

I knew there was a fan cut but I haven't yet read it. I'm also not an advocate of that being someone's experience with the first read of the books. Re-read? Sure, go for it. But I truly believe the books should be experienced the way Martin released them.

I stayed away from discussions on my first read so I had no idea that certain characters were not in book 4. And I read them well after publication (think I started them right after ADWD was released). So I'm new to this "long wait between books" frustration that other long time readers have. Lol

[jellyroll2]

Oh and I also recommend the D&E stories. They're not required reading to get the main asoiaf story but I definitely think they lead to a richer understanding of the narrative. Not to mention knowing that history certainly leads to thoughts of "is history repeating itself"?

Edited October 12, 2015 by jellyroll2

[glowbug]

I've been on the fence about whether or not to read the Dunk and Egg stories now that they've been released in one volume (I hate having to track down short stories in multiple volumes) but I think you guys have convinced me. I'll be adding it to my "to read" list now. 

[Avaleigh]

Awhile back I was curious if any first time Dunk and Egg readers would want to read them together. I still haven't been able to get to them but thankfully have had them now thanks to a PTVer.  Maybe we could have a Dunk and Egg thread?   

Edited October 12, 2015 by Avaleigh

[glowbug]

Awhile back I was curious if any first time Dunk and Egg readers would want to read them together. I still haven't been able to get to them but thankfully have had them now thanks to a PTVer.  Maybe we could have a Dunk and Egg thread?   

 

That's a good idea. I'd participate. 

[Delta1212]

Ditto

[stillshimpy]

I'm in :)  You guys have been nothing but kind, tolerant and patient with me and the Unsullied Thread ways over the years.  

 

I'd love to actually get a chance to post with you guys where we're all on the same ...uh...page (yeah couldn't resist....didn't really try, actually). 

[netlyon2]

Aww, shucks!  I just finished A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms yesterday.  Ah, well, I still haven't had a chance to discuss the stories, though, so bring on the group read. 

[nksarmi]

Ok, I came in late to this game so a read through on new material sounds fun. I hope I can get that book at my local library....

[Lavignac]

Okay I just got up to speed after coming back from a long trip. You guys have written a lot over the last month!

Great discussions (StillShimpy you often make me laugh aloud at my screen...), frustrating marital rape parenthesis, and now the reading order issue.

 

I think it could cause confusion with new/casual commenters to this thread to go with "A Feast with Dragons" combined read, so that would be my best argument for keeping to the published order. My 2nd read was the Boiled Leather combined order, and it was a fascinating experience, but the published order is alright as well, especially when planning to read them back to back.

I also warmly suggest the Dunk & Egg stories, I do admit there is some limited added interest to insert them into the main novel order, mainly to help fuel/understand the world at large and some theories. But it's also reasonable to put them after 5.

 

Keep up the fun work everyone!

 

EDIT:

Oh, I might as well comment on actual content while I'm there.

Shimpy, you mentioned a couple of pages ago that Qyburn being thrown out of the Maesters was an example of retrograde thought that keeps the world in a Dark Age. But, based on stuff you've seen in the show, let me counter-argue that it's an example of morals and ethics, since Qyburn is closer to Dr Frankenstein than to Leonardo da Vinci!

Edited October 13, 2015 by Lavignac

[Alayne Stone]

Hey Shimpy (and everyone else)!

 

I am completely new to these forums and came here because of Angry Got Fan of all things, but I have to say your chronicles have been a very fascinating read and you've even offered a couple of insights I had never considered before as far as how Unsullied viewers might have interpreted things that I was never fully able to understand (namely the whole "The Reeds are evil, right? Right?" thing). I am not familiar with your Unsullied posts, but just based on what you've been able to uncover from your readings and your background with history in general, I can tell you must have been a very insightful show only viewer.

 

I started reading all 36 pages last night and there have been a couple of things that came to me that I've been wanting to contribute.

 

First of all, just to give you a little background on myself ... I came into the book series only after having watched seasons 1 and 2 first. The summer/fall between season 2 and 3 is when I read the book series and became completely enamored with it. Season 3 was the first season I went into having book knowledge and though it was certainly different coming upon my favorite scenes in the television series with expectations, I never really considered myself a book purist or took any issue with the changes I saw. I was aware people had complained that certain characters like Cersei and Tyrion had been "white washed" but I didn't really agree with them at that point. It wasn't until later in season 4 that I really started to come around to that view point with Cersei (although as people said, it's not even the same character, so I too will from here on out refer to show Cersei as "Carol") and season 5 for Tyrion.

 

I can remember quite clearly my first true disappointment with the show was not until Brienne in the Bear Pitt scene in season 4, not because it wasn't rendered properly, but rather because the pay off just wasn't there for me. And I think it was you that pointed out that character motivation had a lot to do with this, and the books spelled out far clearer why Jaime was willing to jump into the pit to save Brienne whereas the show just ... kind of stops with the evolution of Jaime's character after that point. It wasn't anything that made me rage, but it was just the first moment where I felt ... disappointed. My first actual rage moment came at the end of season 4 but I won't touch on that until you are a little further in the books.

 

I'm currently on my third reread of the series (currently on ACoK) and the one thing I have noticed with this series is that your perception of characters changes not only as you progress through the series, but also on subsequent rereads. If you end up enjoying the series, I highly recommend revisiting later on again at some point in your life just so you see what I'm getting at. It wasn't until my very first reread that I was able to truly appreciate Sansa (who is unabashedly my favorite character in the series at this point), Davos (and Team Dragonstone in general), Cersei and certain characters you have even yet to meet in the series.

 

The character I least expected to like during this third read I'm currently on is the character I find myself most enjoying now, which is Catelyn. I wanted so much to put in my two cents during your earlier discussion of the character because of some of the newer insights I have of her. I know one of the biggest complaints the fandom has regarding her (aside from her treatment of Jon) was the fact that she actually encouraged Ned to go to King's Landing as Robert's Hand. But the thing I think a lot of people don't really get about the character (that I admittedly did not really get until just recently) is just how politically savvy Catelyn is. I did not interpret Catelyn as encouraging Ned to go because she had any Southron ambitions but rather as her being the only person to truly understand that Ned could *not* say no. Not to a King, not even if that King was once his best friend. It would have been dangerous to reject that offer, especially with Robert surrounded by people who had conflicting interests at heart. That coupled with the fact that she really had no reason to distrust a message sent by her sister naming the Lannisters as Jon Arryn's murderer, it was difficult but sound advise from her. She is also one of the few characters that does not champion vengeance having seen what it has cost her family, what it has cost other families ... and understood the necessity of making concessions. There's this wonderful quote from one of Catelyn's inner monologues that goes something along the lines of "You taught him how to rule, but did you teach him how to bend the knee?" (her thinking about Ned and Robb). That is not an easy thing to do, but many rulers (in this universe and history) have done this in order to prevent further slaughter and preserve the peace.

 

Cersei has been a hot topic of discussion as well and the only thing I will say at this point is I actually really appreciate book Cersei. I find her to be a truly fascinating character and sadly for me, despite loving Lena Headey's earlier portrayal of the character (especially in season 2) ... she just comes off so one note to me and is not the least bit compelling. Part of that has to do with projecting some of her book personality onto show Margaery. I do not root for Cersei by any means, but I enjoy her immensely and it's just been disappointing for me to see the show version's development just because I feel somewhat cheated from what we don't get to see. And I agree with everyone that show Carol isn't even much of a villain at this point. I was actually kind of rooting for her in season 5 which is something I never, ever expected.

 

The biggest issue for me with the show is that they've significantly changed so many of characteristics of the characters but they still shoehorn in some of their major plot developments and it just ... falls flat. It falls utterly flat. But that's what happens when character motivations are significantly altered. Motivations are the driving point of any story and when characterizations change, so do their motivations ... and suddenly the things they do just don't make sense. They make sense for their book counterparts, but not in the show. And this happens with many spectacular moments that I'm curious to get your take on as you progress through the story. You already kind of saw it and even commented on it a little bit with Jaime in the bear bit.

 

A couple more comments from earlier in the thread ...

 

1. Don't skip the Red Wedding. It's not nearly as visceral as the show had been but it's still tragically and strangely ... beautifully written ... in that horribly tragic sort of way.

2. I definitely recommend to continue reading in the order the books were published. I did this myself and had no issue with continuing through books 4 and 5 because, as you said ... the difference is only in how fast you can read.

3. Random comment regarding the House of the Undying (which was one of my favorite chapters by the way) ... did you notice one of the visions included "a blue rose growing in a chink of ice?" It was another very subtle nod to Jon being Lyanna's son, as we know she was very fond of blue roses and guess who is currently on the Wall? For me ... the whole R+L=J was never supposed to be this grand mystery. It was always intended to be subtly included in the text for anyone to pick up on if they paid enough attention and mostly just kind of enhances the story. I also think that while it is important that Jon eventually learns who his mother is ... I don't think the revelation of Rhaegar being his father will influence him toward wanting a throne or anything. Just because Rhaegar would be his biological father, I doubt he would stop considering Ned as his actual "father" given that this was the man who raised him. If anything, I hope he will find so peace knowing that he truly was loved after all and hopefully he will be understanding and forgiving of all the lengths Ned went through to keep him safe.

 

Anyway ... just wanted to let you know I've really enjoyed the discussion on this thread. What portion are you at in the book btw? There are several things coming up that I'm very excited for you to get to. :)

 

Also I apologize for the length of this post.

 

ETA: I haven't read The Dunk and Egg novels either but it's on my bucket list of things to do, especially now that they have been released together. I'd definitely be interested in reading them with others.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[jellyroll2]

I would totally be down with a D&E thread. I read them all a while ago but can def go along with a re-read. And it would be so interesting to get thoughts on them as I haven't really discussed them with anyone either.

[Hecate7]

Hecate7, you have a very specific positive opinion of Tyrion that not everyone will share, I think it's time to agree to disagree.

 

 

And all some of us are saying to this is "Well, congratulations" and not "Woohoo, my hero".

 

I don't recall ever using the word "hero."

[ambi76]

It just sounds a bit like hero worship when you speak of the imp, though, Hecate7.

 

About Dunk & Egg: Yes, those short stories have a somewhat lighter tone than the main story, but if you really think about it, it's not quite unicorns and rainbows either and the "history repeating itself" stuff that jellyroll2 mentioned is a definite undercurrent of the ASOIAF world as a whole. My ever contrarian self loves the second story of those three the most so far, which is usually considered the "boring one". Oh well.

Edited October 13, 2015 by ambi76

[feverfew]

Cersei has been a hot topic of discussion as well and the only thing I will say at this point is I actually really appreciate book Cersei. I find her to be a truly fascinating character and sadly for me, despite loving Lena Headey's earlier portrayal of the character (especially in season 2) ... she just comes off so one note to me and is not the least bit compelling. Part of that has to do with projecting some of her book personality onto show Margaery. I do not root for Cersei by any means, but I enjoy her immensely and it's just been disappointing for me to see the show version's development just because I feel somewhat cheated from what we don't get to see. And I agree with everyone that show Carol isn't even much of a villain at this point. I was actually kind of rooting for her in season 5 which is something I never, ever expected.

 

And this is where we differ entirely, because for me the Cersei in the show is a far more complex and compelling character than her book counterpart*. Also I don't understand where you're coming from in regards to "projecting her book personality onto show Margery"? As far as I can tell, Margery might sound slightly more bitchy than her book counterpart, but since I don't think book!Cersei's personality trait consists only of "bitchy" I don't quite understand it.

 

And could we please keep off the "Carol"-thingy? This is not the Rant&Rave thread, and I really hope it won't degenerate into that.

 

*

And don't get me started on her psychotic break in Feast - that was the point in the story where I seriously started to doubt whether GRRM really is as progressive as people claim he is. Badly written purple prose lesbian sex, stock villain grandstanding, and a woman who can only claim power through her vagina. Yikes.

 

Uh, I forgot to say that I would love to read Dunk&Egg with you guys - I just bought the collected version, and I really look forward to it!

Edited October 13, 2015 by feverfew

[Haleth]

I'll join the D&E read but somewhat reluctantly.  Avoiding them has been a sort of protest for me.  While GRRM can't seem to sit still long enough to finish ASOIAF he is still milking that cow by writing companion pieces.  He needs to stop being distracted by shiny new stories and get to work.

 

Welcome, Alayne, bobby, feverfew and whoever else just joined us!

Edited October 13, 2015 by Haleth

[ambi76]

@ Haleth: I feel you, especially as it is somewhat plain that GRRM enjoys the side stories more these days (I think some publisher or HBO executive might have hit him over the head with a club after he announced a fourth D&E so he then relented and said, okay, TWOW first.

 

feverfew *

(yeah, the purple lesbian prose is just GRRM jerking off, so I can easily roll my eyes and ignore that)

you are in the majority here and Alayne and I in the minority with really liking

AFFC

book Cersei.

I'm also one of those that don't think her characterization there comes out of nowhere at all (only in the sense that we haven't been in her head before) like many do. She has always been really nuts. Now she's gone totally nuts

.

 

ETA: This is my explanation for

 

projecting her book personality onto show Margery"?

 

with which I agree: The sexual part of Cersei has definitely been transfered to Marg. And D&D (and Dormer just the other day at a convention) have called show!Margaery both "evil"* "false" and "cold" and "a younger Cersei", which I just don't get from book!Marg, I'm sorry.

 

I'm also still rather sure this was done because Dormer initially auditioned for Cersei.**

 

* if a nice kind of evil

** though I might be proven wrong with that

Edited October 13, 2015 by ambi76

[Avaleigh]

For the people who have read D&E, how long did it take you to get through them? I'm just wondering what the timeline would be like as far as how quickly I'd need to get my reading done. 

 

Anyone have any start time ideas? 

 

I'm assuming Shimpy that obviously you'll want to finish ASoS first but will you plan on going to book four next or will you have a D&E interlude? 

 

I'm happy with any start time. Whatever works for everyone else. I'm just glad I'll be able to read them with others. I was convinced that I was one of like three Bookwalkers who hadn't read them but I see now that there are quite a few of us. (I still need to get to that Prince Daemon short story too.)

[nksarmi]

Regarding Cersei/Margery - I don't know what Alayne Stone was referring to, but I got a similar feeling the last couple of seasons.  I'm just not sure if it's the show itself or who they cast in the part, but either way....

 

I feel like some of book Cersei's using sex for power has been moved onto show Marg. I know we haven't seen show Marg cheat on Tommen or sleep with anyone but him, but she just comes off as far more sexually savvy to me than her book counterpart - like a nicer version of what we see in book Cersei. On the other hand, we've only seen show Cersei with Jamie and Lancel (I believe) and though she's said things about a woman's power coming from between her legs, we haven't seen her wield that power like her book counterpart.

Edited October 13, 2015 by nksarmi

[ambi76]

For the people who have read D&E, how long did it take you to get through them?

 

I got myself the German version for Christmas last year and sucked them up in three days or so. They are ~130 pages each I think.

Edited October 13, 2015 by ambi76

[Reader of Books]

@ Alayne Stone

 

Some good points. I too am waiting for this project to reach the end of Season 4 of the show.

 

With Catelyn I felt the same. With my first read, I didn't really find her sympathetic. I later thought it was because it was from her PoV and she was deeply disturbed and had a sense of dread about events. I warmed to her much more upon later readings. She is human. She is flawed. She made mistakes. Every character in this story has. The problem for many appears to be that when we learn about her, our view of the world was very small so her flaws and mistakes stand out much more and our judgement is initially made on that. First impressions et cetera.

 

But what happened with the stories of Jaime and Theon forced me to reassess every character. Catelyn was one who rose significantly in my opinion. I had to stop and figuratively applaud GRRM at that point.

 

I completely get shimpy's opinion at this point in time. Perhaps her opinion of Cat won't change. That is for each and every reader to make their own judgement on.

 

Re the blue rose. One of them has appeared in the show, so they are 'in the world'.

 

(Putting a screenshot of the show in a spoiler so it doesn't fill the page up)

Edited October 13, 2015 by Reader of Books

[jellyroll2]

For the people who have read D&E, how long did it take you to get through them? I'm just wondering what the timeline would be like as far as how quickly I'd need to get my reading done. 

 

Anyone have any start time ideas? 

 

I'm assuming Shimpy that obviously you'll want to finish ASoS first but will you plan on going to book four next or will you have a D&E interlude? 

 

I'm happy with any start time. Whatever works for everyone else. I'm just glad I'll be able to read them with others. I was convinced that I was one of like three Bookwalkers who hadn't read them but I see now that there are quite a few of us. (I still need to get to that Prince Daemon short story too.)

Mmm, I didn't rush through them or sit and devour them the way I did the novels but I still think I got through them in about 10 days. I would say with the way we discuss things here, may take a couple of weeks. But these stories will be more like things we'll discuss as a whole once we've read each story rather than chapter by chapter like we are the books.

[Which Tyler]

I'm up for doing D&E as a re-read.

I'd suggest creating new threads for each story though, just as the books are for bookwalkers; that way everyone can come to them when they're ready. As a group read / re-read prject though, call it 4 days between stories?

As for when to fit it in - I'd say that between books 3&4 really is the best place for them

[Lady S.]

For the people who have read D&E, how long did it take you to get through them? I'm just wondering what the timeline would be like as far as how quickly I'd need to get my reading done.

Not long at all, they're only novellas, not full-length novels. I guess it depends how busy a person is, but I'd think each story could be gotten through in a day.

[Triskan]

Yeah, reading them slowly it took me two days each if I remember correctly ! 

 

But first, let's wait for shimpy to finish the amazing book 3 ! Looking forward to know at what point she is now !

Edited October 13, 2015 by Triskan