Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[nksarmi]

Edited out ----

okay so I guess we agree on the Sansa part : p

@nk Eh, okay, let's just agree to disagree. Edmure's actually one of my favorite characters btw. He's an actual lord that shows some social responsibility.

 

Have you ever had one thought and as you were forming it, 10 others popped into your head?  So yea, as I'm defending Edmure, my thoughts ran to wait a minute, why WAS Robb's plan to help Stannis' victory anyway if there was no pact in place?  I mean, surely his mother had told them that Stannis might have been responsible for Renly's death at that point?  Was Robb really so sure that Stannis was the better option (over Tywin that is - not Geoffrey. The actually king was nuts and needed to die, but Tywin presumably was the real "Lannister king" in the War of Five Kings.

Edited September 23, 2015 by nksarmi

[WindyNights]

Exactly, so Sansa's options if Stannis won was being raped by his men or killed by Cersei's - not exactly win/win there. As crazy as it sounds, it seems like Sansa benefited to some degree by Stannis loss. And hell, for all we know, even if she managed to make it through Stannis win without Cersei killing her or Stannis' men raping her, Mel might have burned her as some sort of virgin sacrifice to the Lord of Light.

But more to the point, I don't believe Edmure loss Robb anything, because Robb didn't WIN anything by defeating Tywin and Stannis taking King's Landing. Now IF Robb and Stannis had a pact for Robb to bend the knee and Stannis to release Sansa (and presumably Ayra for all they know) - then Edmure's failure would have meant something. But as is, Robb had no such agreement in place. So even if Robb's plan succeeded, he would have just traded the bastard Tywin for the stubborn, prideful Stannis with a side of crazy as Mel to go along.

To decide if Robb loss something, you have to look at why he called the banners to begin with and what his goals became over time. Robb called the banners to free Ned and he failed that when Geoffrey cut off his head. Robb kept the war going presumably for a combination of things, freeing his sisters, avenging his father, and then being King of the North - liberating the North for the rest of the kingdom.

Here is the real problem in all of this - and I think it's a failure in the text that never occurred to me before unless someone can clarify it for me - if Robb doesn't care about Sansa and Ayra enough to trade Jamie for them - why does HE keep going. We are NEVER led to believe that Robb wants the Iron Throne. We are also told repeatedly that the North cannot be invaded and cannot be defeated (to include being told the North only bent the knee for dragons). As such, it is safe to assume that Tywin nor Stannis nor any southern lord could have defeated Robb if he had turned his Army north and settled back at Winterfell.

So why does he keep fighting after his father is dead? If he doesn't want the Iron Throne and doesn't need to defeat Tywin to protect the North - why? The only two answers there could be is a) to free Sansa and Ayra and b) avenge Ned. If all he wants is vengeance against Ned, killing Jamie would have been as good as any other vengeance so why keep him alive? If he wants to free Sansa and Ayra, why not serve Jamie up for trade before Catelyn defies him to do it?

I don't know that I've thought about this in these terms before, but in truth, Robb might be as responsible for his own doom as anyone else. Because why didn't he turn North after he heard that Winterfell was sacked? Why did he even bother to make amends with Frey if he could have gone a different way (as I recall going South it was because he was in a hurry, but he didn't need Frey to go back North)? Why not just pull back and fortify? I really don't know if that is answered in the text. Thoughts?

*Edited because I think that read bitchier than I meant it to when I posted it and I decided to expand on my line of thought. Sorry!

You make a good point but Stannis is far easier to handle than Tywin is. It doesn't have to do with ability but rather that the Tyrells would back Tywin but not Stannis.

To answer yor question it wasn't because Robb was fighting for an independent Kingdom of the North. It's because he was fighting for an independent Kingdom of the North and the Trident. Robb would've probably still been alive if he just decides to leave the Riverlands to themselves after Ned was executed.

Robb's terms were give my sisters back, the betrothal of Joff and Sansa is at an end, the IT has no more hegemony over the North and Trident, these are my borders, give me lots of noble hostages which I will release year by year for your good behavior. I'll keep Jaime prisoner for a while as well to ensure Tywin's good behavior.

Robb does

turn north after he hears that Bran and Rickon were killed. He can't go north because the ironborn hold Moat Cailin so he needs the Freys' manpower to help either take it or to reinforce the river lords as he's taking northern troops to take back the North.

Edited September 23, 2015 by WindyNights

[Lady S.]

Have you ever had one thought and as you were forming it, 10 others popped into your head?  So yea, as I'm defending Edmure, my thoughts ran to wait a minute, why WAS Robb's plan to help Stannis' victory anyway if there was no pact in place?  I mean, surely his mother had told them that Stannis might have been responsible for Renly's death at that point?  Was Robb really so sure that Stannis was the better option (over Tywin that is - not Geoffrey. The actually king was nuts and needed to die, but Tywin presumably was the real "Lannister king" in the War of Five Kings.

Robb and Catelyn were in separate regions for most of Clash, she wouldn't have had a chance to say anything about Stannis before his return to Riverrun in Storm. And, not that Robb could know this either, but Stannis did promise Catelyn at the parley to return her daughters when he took King's Landing.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Lady S.

[ambi76]

"Petyr lied"

 

ASOIAF in a nutshell. :P

 

The tragic thing is, when Catelyn starts to suspect this, she doesn't want to believe it.

[nksarmi]

Robb and Catelyn were in separate regions for most of Clash, she wouldn't have had a chance to say anything about Stannis before his return to Riverrun in Storm. And, not that Robb could know this either, but Stannis did promise Catelyn at the parley to return her daughters when he took King's Landing.

See it didn't feel to me like Catelyn left Stannis with any feeling of confidence considering she was there when Stannis shadow killed Renly.  I mean, as much as letting Jamie go was pretty damn foolish, I can at least understand why Catelyn did not want to trust Stannis to get her daughters back. 

 

One of my biggest problems with Catelyn letting Jamie go wasn't that she wanted to trade Jamie for her daughters - it was HOW she expected it to happen.  I mean did she really believe that Brie could take Jamie to KL and leave with Sansa and Ayra?  And that once she did, she would be able to leave KL unharmed and bring the girls to Riverrun?

 

I mean even IF Jamie and Tyrion are men of their word and make good on their promises - surely she would understand that nothing at that point could reign in Geoffrey?  I mean really despite Catelyn's many mistakes, she is a smart woman.  She has to know that the only person who could have ordered Ned's death was Geoffrey.  Even if rumors hadn't reached her that Geoffrey was an out of control, mad little tyrant, she has to know the reputation of Tywin and Cersei well enough to know that neither of them would have permitted Ned's death while Ned could be used to put the kingdom back in order.  She also has to know that a one-for-one (or in this case one-for-two) exchange on neutral ground is the best way to trade her daughters for Jamie. 

 

So her plan was rather stupid from the word go.  I would have held less against her if she risked Robb's reputation with his men on a GOOD plan than on a BAD one.

[nksarmi]

WindyNights, thanks for a refresh on Robb's terms.  Being bad a real life geography means fictional geography tends to go right over my head.  The fact that he was demanding the Riverlands as well explains why he was still fighting Tywin at least.

[stillshimpy]

Frankly, I wouldn't let any of these people plan a cross-town move for me, but no one person is as responsible for all that went down than Ned. 

 

Actually Ned was planning to get his daughters out of there before shit hit the fan. The problem is that Sansa ratted Ned out to Cersei because she didn't want to leave thereby allowing Cersei to block that move.

 

For some entirely asinine reason, Ned did a series of things that made any of that possible, by giving Cersei a giant head's up.  It's not like her children were going to get any less legitimate, or she could conceive and deliver another product-of-incest-in-line-for-the-throne.  

 

Sansa's an eleven-year-old girl at that point.  She has the judgment of one.  She'd always rate below every single grownup in the whole thing, in terms of responsibility on that basis alone.   But I loved Ned --  I am a sucker for the good guys in life -- and that's all on Ned.  

 

First he gives Cersei a gigantic head's up.....so when Cersei says "we might have lost all if Sansa hadn't warned me" ....wow, the levels of lying she's doing there need charts and graphs to fully explain why she's telling that whopper, but it's a whopper none the less.  Ned is actually being watched and presumably Cersei didn't want to say instead of "Hey, Sansa told me, so I was able to stop it all" rather than  "Funniest thing, Ned Stark, the least likely guy in the world to figure something like this out, realized I've been screwing my twin brother and bearing his children exclusively....." 

 

But even if someone is willing to try and discount that and still blame Sansa, Sansa is a child....which is one of the reasons Ned's other "I compete for the King of Moron Hill and take the crown!" is that he felt the need to inform pretty much everyone he shouldn't that they were leaving.  It's treason he's trying to expose.  What a great fucking plan.  Tell your children, who can't possibly understand all of this, that you're leaving, breaking engagements....blah blah blah....oh my God, they have servants.  Tell the servants to pack for them and when it's time to go you just bloody well take them and explain en route why. 

 

This is "Escape the Dangerous Situation" planning 101.  Limit the number of people in the know, preferably to just you and exclude all children, who don't have the maturity to actually help.   What Sansa did was horrible, but she's  a child.   She had no way of understanding the incredible peril they were in ....but Ned sure as hell did, even through The Milk of the Poppy Haze....because he warned Cersei so she could protect her children.  It was a daft thing for a full grown man to do.   What Sansa did?  Pretty much what you can expect out of a middle-school age girl who was being thwarted in what she wanted.    

 

Harken thee back to the days of yore: Puberty.  It makes for terrible judgment.  Heads up if you're planning a coup of any description: don't include anyone in the planning stages whose head is currently being bombarded by out-of-control hormones.  It's a How Not To Be Beheaded tip from me, to thee. 

 

Onwards:  Catelyn's many and varied mistakes have been covered, but Ned still wins for the "Why did things go AS wrong as they did?" because before any of that shit started, he wanted to take the kids with him to King's Landing , partially as a move to punish Cat for making him go to King's Landing and not allowing Jon to stay at Winterfell.  The only mild-marital-bickering that led to murder, mayhem and death (we hope).  

 

Here's something that showed Robb's age and just gets Edmure off the damned hook entirely in my mind:  Unlike the Ned situation: If you need someone to know something to guarantee their actions: Clue.them.in.   This whole, "Because your KING told you to" is a bunch of hooey.  Robb's been King for forty-five minutes, in essence and to Edmure he's been his nephew all his life.  They held the same social standing in that they were both the first sons, due to inherit, but Edmure is a grown man and Robb is recently a king and I like Robb, but he should have respected Edmure enough to tell him what he wanted to do and why. 

 

Now, I get why a Stark might think, "But he might blab" because....witness the Starks....but Edmure deserved to be told the truth because it was the people who were under his protection that were going to pay the price.   So did he screw up?  Yes, but as with almost everything in this story, the screw-up started when everyone acted like they were bit players in a Gothic Farce:  How Many People Can We Get Killed Dinner Theatre. 

 

If you want to get right down to brass tacks on all of this:  Having Robert marry Cersei in such a tearing hurry wasn't the best plan either, so you can really dig pretty deep in the "whose fault was all of this" woods and for a long time.  But it honestly amuses me that people blame Sansa as much as they do because she's a kid.  Arya pretty much never does what her parents told her to do, but the one time Sansa didn't she's held responsible for wars, slaughter, rape, torture.   

 

Good grief, she's eleven.  Even if you want to say the years work differently there and she's actually some version of somewhere around 13, guys have you ever met a teenager or remember being one?  Her fuck up had dire consequences, but it was sadly just an entirely age appropriate move.   Filling your adolescent daughter in on your plans to make her flee and abandon her heart's desire is NOT an age appropriate move, Ned. 

[nksarmi]

shimpy I love your ENTIRE post.  It really is funny how many times and how badly Ned screwed up in King's Landing.  But I think it's easy to forget his role in all of this because he loses his head for it in book one and Catelyn is still around making huge blunders in book three. 

 

However, even just watching the show, when Ned tells Ayra and Sansa they are leaving King's Landing and both girls start objecting - I was talking to my tv going "Ned, why in the WORLD did you tell them that before you were ready to put them in a carriage and leave town!?!?!"  And then when Littlefinger says "I know you want to leave, but meet me tonight and I will show you the last person who Jon spoke to before he died," I was yelling, "No leave!  Leave now!  It's not worth it!*"  I mean come on, LF could have done that anytime - why wouldn't Ned be at least a little suspicious as to why LF was telling him that at the exact moment Ned was trying to get out of dodge?!?!?

 

No, I like Ned but the man was rather dumb.

 

At let me just say that I make this criticism of Ned as a person who has been told her whole life "you know, curiosity killed the cat."  And I am a person who likes to have questions answered so I truly appreciate how tempting LF made that offer.  But there is no way in the world, I would risk my daughter's life to find out.  I would have taken that offer as a sign that I needed to get my daughters out of KL any way possible right that minute, because this guy is clearly trying to keep me around - and not for my own good.

Edited September 23, 2015 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

"Ned, why in the WORLD did you tell them that before you were ready to put them in a carriage and leave town!?!?!"

 

Plus, when he tells Sansa in the book, he only tells her the part that sounds like this to Sansa, "You won't be marrying the crown prince, you won't be getting what you've wanted your whole life, and have been told is what you want."  

 

But then....then....just to make really fucking sure that things will go drastically, spectacularly wrong, he doesn't explain why.  For some damned reason that's the moment he chooses to remember that she's an eleven-year-old girl and pulls a version of "You'll understand when you're older, for now, do as I say."  

 

I mean, go big to get them to go home, Ned, if you're going to start doing things like including your children in what amounts to spycraft:  Well Sansa, you won't be marrying Joffrey.  Here's why:   It's to try and make sure your children have the proper number of fingers and toes, eyeballs and wits.  You see, the Queen has been doing the nasty with her twin brother and Joffrey is actually Cersei's son by her brother, Jaime.  He's not legitimate.  He's never going to be the King. Bad things are going to happen.  Very bad things."  

 

Nope....that part....the part that would have likely made Sansa freak the hell out and realize, "Oh my gods, he's not going to be the King?  Let's haul ass to Winterfell while I've still got my maidenthingy."  

 

Nooooo....that's the part that he deems too grownup for her to hear.   It's absolutely bizarre, even as he's telling her something that she's too young to understand the import of....he's actually opting to keep parts of it from her, because he knows she's too young to understand the import of it all.  So don't tell her, you giant Goober.  Good gods.  I liked the character.  I love Sean Bean, but gadzukes. 

 

It boggles the mind, truly.  

 

ETA:  And with that, I hit the road for a bit :-) 

Edited September 23, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

The funny thing about Sansa blabbing and thwarting their escape is that she learned nothing, but turned around and did it again by telling Dontos about the Tyrells' plans to take her to Highgarden. Sheesh. Close your mouth, girl!

 

Robb should have let Edmure know what his plan was just so a mistake would NOT be made.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Haleth

[jellyroll2]

 

Here's something that showed Robb's age and just gets Edmure off the damned hook entirely in my mind:  Unlike the Ned situation: If you need someone to know something to guarantee their actions: Clue.them.in.   This whole, "Because your KING told you to" is a bunch of hooey.  Robb's been King for forty-five minutes, in essence and to Edmure he's been his nephew all his life.  They held the same social standing in that they were both the first sons, due to inherit, but Edmure is a grown man and Robb is recently a king and I like Robb, but he should have respected Edmure enough to tell him what he wanted to do and why. 

 

Now, I get why a Stark might think, "But he might blab" because....witness the Starks....but Edmure deserved to be told the truth because it was the people who were under his protection that were going to pay the price.   So did he screw up?  Yes, but as with almost everything in this story, the screw-up started when everyone acted like they were bit players in a Gothic Farce:  How Many People Can We Get Killed Dinner Theatre. 

I agree so much with that whole post but this part in particular. Did Edmure screw up? Yes. Would he have screwed up as badly, or at all, if someone had the smart idea of actually letting the guy who was acting as your general know the entirety of the plan? Probably not. I refuse to knock Edmure for actually trying to protect his people. Because "protect Riverrun" alone while not telling him why they want Tywin's army to get through is expecting the guy who's responsibility it is to protect and care for the thousands of people in his domain to just suffer rape, torture, torment and death while he sits in a castle. It would not be northmen dying while Tywin's army went through. It was the people in the riverlands. Edmure's people. Give him a reason why he should not try to defend the area but only the castle. Explain the bigger picture, why some suffering has to happen in order to stop further and greater suffering later, and his decisions would likely be different.

 

To not tell him the whole plan, then blame him when the plan doesn't work is complete crap. And Cat with her "I told you so"'s right after she's made the biggest and dumbest mistake of her many mistakes? Just another reason I couldn't stand her.

[mac123x]

Piling on here: 

 

Robb wanted to lead Tywin into a trap.  One of the ways you lead someone into a trap is to show them what they expect to see then pull the rug out from under them.  Robb did that at the Green Fork:  he had his foot soldiers attack Tywin's forces (as Tywin expected), while detaching his horseman to the Whispering Woods.

 

So now he tried to lure Tywin back into the West.  Tywin had already fallen for one of Robb's deceptions, so he might be a little cautious.  If Edmure held back to just Riverrun, and Tywin passed unmolested through the Riverlands on his way back west, he might become a little suspicious.  "That was convenient... too convenient."

 

Robb should have told Eddy to put up some resistance, but to let Tywin through.  It'd present Tywin with exactly what he'd expect:  that the Riverlords would be ineffectual without Robb leading them. 

 

I'd also think that Robb would want Edmure leading some of his forces west behind Tywin's army so they could smash into his rear when Robb's forces hit from the front.

[John Potts]

nksarmi Robb might be as responsible for his own doom as anyone else.  Because why didn't he turn North after he heard that Winterfell was sacked?

 

 

Presumably for the same reason Robert the Bruce attacked York in 1319 & 1322 (well into England): he didn't just want to gain independence (secured by winning at Bannockburn in 1314), he wanted a secure Border and (ideally) recognition as rightful ruler of his Kingdom.

 

As for Sansa's fate if Stannis took King's Landing: he might well take the city without capturing the Red Keep and then negotiate the surrender of the keep itself. In which case, although he'd probably insist on executing every Lannister, Sansa might be left alive as  hostage (at least unless/until Mel demands her as a sacrifice). So not exactly puppy dogs & flowers, but not necessarily rape & death.

 

Edmure I'm kind of torn over. I'm not entirely clear what he knew and when. If Robb had told him to keep the Mountain tied down then he is to blame for letting him escape: if Edmure was told just to defend his territory then he did do that and the fact that he actually screwed up the Grand Plan would be Robb's fault for not letting Edmure in on his plans. Since we don't get a Robb POV, it's not at all clear which we're meant to think is the case.

[Which Tyler]

I really don't think Sansa lasts long in the case of a red keep under seige within a captured kings landing. Worst of both worlds for her.

As for Edmure, I've always been of the opinion that if Robb wanted him to act in a certain way, then it's on Robb to give the right orders and enough information. The whole "I only told you do defend Riverun" thing is grasping at straws to blame someone else and deflect from your own failure.

Last I heard, bosses are considered responsible for the actions of their juniors, whether in business or military.

[Delta1212]

At the very least, he should have been more explicit about not leaving Riverrun. As it stands, had he allowed Riverrun to be captured, he would be disobeying the order given him.

But he didn't. He did more than he was instructed; he didn't go against his instructions. That's what people tend to do unless specifically told otherwise. Unless you want to get very specific with every single step of what someone needs to do in order to get there job done, you have to count on people having some level of initiative and, that being the case, you need to set appropriate boundaries for what they shouldn't do just as much as for what they should.

[WindyNights]

Presumably for the same reason Robert the Bruce attacked York in 1319 & 1322 (well into England): he didn't just want to gain independence (secured by winning at Bannockburn in 1314), he wanted a secure Border and (ideally) recognition as rightful ruler of his Kingdom.

As for Sansa's fate if Stannis took King's Landing: he might well take the city without capturing the Red Keep and then negotiate the surrender of the keep itself. In which case, although he'd probably insist on executing every Lannister, Sansa might be left alive as hostage (at least unless/until Mel demands her as a sacrifice). So not exactly puppy dogs & flowers, but not necessarily rape & death.

Edmure I'm kind of torn over. I'm not entirely clear what he knew and when. If Robb had told him to keep the Mountain tied down then he is to blame for letting him escape: if Edmure was told just to defend his territory then he did do that and the fact that he actually screwed up the Grand Plan would be Robb's fault for not letting Edmure in on his plans. Since we don't get a Robb POV, it's not at all clear which we're meant to think is the case.

Well Robb said his job is is to hold Riverrun. defending a 250 mile south of Riverrun Iand trying to win the war is not holding Riverrun.

I think the idea was that telling Edmure too much would cause him to fuck up. He'd do something stupid so they kept it simple and told just enough which 'caused him to fuck up.

I mean when Robb left, he definitely figured that Edmure wouldn't have the manpower to confront Tywin. Cat says as much but Edmure decided to call all the riverlords back to Riverrun.

To Edmure's credit, his plan to beat Tywin was decent.

But anyways, it's kinda apparent that Robb and Brynden thought Edmure was a fool. They should've replaced him with someone else or given the command to Brynden to hold Riverrun while Robb takes Edmure with him west.

[nksarmi]

Well Robb said his job is is to hold Riverrun. defending a 250 mile south of Riverrun Iand trying to win the war is not holding Riverrun.

I think the idea was that telling Edmure too much would cause him to fuck up. He'd do something stupid so they kept it simple and told just enough which 'caused him to fuck up.

I mean when Robb left, he definitely figured that Edmure wouldn't have the manpower to confront Tywin. Cat says as much but Edmure decided to call all the riverlords back to Riverrun.

To Edmure's credit, his plan to beat Tywin was decent.

But anyways, it's kinda apparent that Robb and Brynden thought Edmure was a fool. They should've replaced him with someone else or given the command to Brynden to hold Riverrun while Robb takes Edmure with him west.

 

Your last idea is probably the best if they didn't trust Edmure.  I actually feel bad for Edmure somehow in all of this.  I mean, he's a minor enough character that I never really thought about if I liked him, but now that we are dissecting it - I kind of do like him and the shitith hitting the fanith is really not his fault.

[Lady S.]

See it didn't feel to me like Catelyn left Stannis with any feeling of confidence considering she was there when Stannis shadow killed Renly.  I mean, as much as letting Jamie go was pretty damn foolish, I can at least understand why Catelyn did not want to trust Stannis to get her daughters back. 

 

Oh no, she definitely didn't, I was just saying Robb had no reason to root against Stannis. He didn't know about being branded a usurper, Red Rahloo, the shadowbaby or any of that, and it wouldn't be too optimistic to think Stannis would make a deal and release Sansa. But really his aim was just to fight Tywin in the west, not help Stannis, and if the Lannisters had lost the capital while Tywin was gone, there'd be no reason to think it wouldn't be a great thing for Team Young Wolf. But even if they don't want Stannis as their king, a Lannister victory at Blackwater was still bad news because Tywin had just strengthened Joffrey's throne and doubled his power through the Tyrell alliance. A dead Sansa and King Stannis would probably be more beneficial to their cause. Stannis would want Robb to bend the knee or die, but he wouldn't enlist the likes of Walder Frey and Roose Bolton to help him, and it doesn't appear that shadowbabies can kill long-distance.

 

I think the idea was that telling Edmure too much would cause him to fuck up. He'd do something stupid so they kept it simple and told just enough which 'caused him to fuck up.

I mean when Robb left, he definitely figured that Edmure wouldn't have the manpower to confront Tywin. Cat says as much but Edmure decided to call all the riverlords back to Riverrun.

To Edmure's credit, his plan to beat Tywin was decent.

But anyways, it's kinda apparent that Robb and Brynden thought Edmure was a fool. They should've replaced him with someone else or given the command to Brynden to hold Riverrun while Robb takes Edmure with him west.

Given what happened, I think not telling him what to do had more risk of him fucking up the plan. Very specific instructions could only have helped. And as mac123x said, surely he wanted to make use of Edmure and the riverlords at some point, so why not let him in on the plan from the start? Edmure wasn't just some guy told to hold a castle like Ser Rodrik, he was de facto Lord of Riverrun and Lord Paramount of the Trident already, the highest-ranking commander after Robb. And Robb trusted him enough to let the riverlords return to their castles on Edmure's advice, bad advice, but which Robb chose to listen to when he didn't have to, showing he didn't completely think Edmure was a fool whose rank shouldn't be respected. If Robb had kept the riverlords mobilized and taken at least some of those forces with him then Edmure wouldn't have had enough left for any major battles. Robb thinking Edmure didn't have enough men to do anything when he did leave was a big mistake, since the tens of thousands of riverlords and knights were still around and could be recalled at any time. I don't really think there was a good reason to not explain things to Edmure, it's just one of those things that had to happen so everything could go wrong for Robb.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Lady S.

[WindyNights]

@lady s I think realizing how bad the advice Edmure gave him is what made him think less of his uncle. The thing is that despite Edmure's rank, Blackfish and Robb didn't think too highly of him. They underestimated Edmure's Independce since really did expect Edmure to he a Ser Rodrik.

Minor correction: not tens of thousands just a few thousand

Edited September 24, 2015 by WindyNights

[Delta1212]

I don't think we actually know the range of shadow babies. I mean, on the one hand, she did send one after Renly, who was closer, rather than, say, Joffrey, but Renly was also the more immediate obstacle to Stannis at the moment.

The one time we actually get a peak at the creation of the shadowbaby, Davos has to row her in close, but that seems to be more about getting past Storm's End's magical defenses than a limit on range.

Now, if the limit is on how many Mel can make with Stannis, rather than on the range of attack, you might wonder why she wasted one on Courtnay Penrose of all people, rather than, again, sending it after Joffrey or someone, but Mel thought she was using it to get her hands on Edric Storm, allowing her to wake the stone dragons of Dragonstone. That clearly would have been a valuable trade-in of one limited weapon for something much, much more valuable.

[Lady S.]

@lady s I think realizing how bad the advice Edmure gave him is what made him think less of his uncle. The thing is that despite Edmure's rank, Blackfish and Robb didn't think too highly of him. They underestimated Edmure's Independce since really did expect Edmure to he a Ser Rodrik.

Minor correction: not tens of thousands just a few thousand

If the Blackfish made Robb realize it was bad advice, that still doesn't justify keeping Edmure in the dark from then on. (I don't think racefortheironthrone ever gives any reason Edmure shouldn't have known the plan, just that he should have followed Robb's orders exactly.) It's true enough that Edmure should have just done only as he was told to and that he was in the wrong, but the whole confusion could have been easily prevented. Aside from Edmure and Ser Rodrik being in completely different positions, Edmure's past behavior gave no reason to doubt his independence. I'd think just the opposite. Before getting himself defeated and captured by Jaime, Edmure was trying foolishly to defend the whole region, and then he was the one urging Robb to march on Harrenhal and saying they shouldn't just be waiting at Riverrun. The only reason he wanted to release the riverlords was so they could defend their lands, because Tywin still being around was intolerable to him. Nothing he did or said indicated a humble or timid man who would be content to stay out of the fray at Riverrun, sitting idly by while his teenage nephew handled everything. The Blackfish correctly identified Jaime as an impatient glory hound, why ignore those same traits in Edmure? Brynden never appears shocked to learn Edmure was like this after the Battle of the Fords, just frustrated at how things turned out. The only way that situation makes sense to me is if they didn't care what Edmure did because they expected him to fail as he had before, and the real shocker was Edmure actually waging battle successfully. But if Edmure had known he'd play a part in Robb's plans by attacking Tywin's rear, he probably would have been better able to wait for that part and not screw up anything.

 

I guess that depends on your definition of a few thousand. Edmure had 11,000 men at the Battle of the Fords, and there's no way that was the full strength of the Riverlands. In any case, those men were enough to fight Tywin, and it shouldn't have been a great shocker that Edmure could call them up whenever he wanted to.

 

ETA: I realize this post is way too long so I'm just going to leave it here. I've said all I can on Lord Floppy Fish and anything more we'll just have to agree to disagree on.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Lady S.

[WindyNights]

11, 000 was the full strength of the Riverlands as the Riverlands had received a lot of casualties before and Robb took some of the Riverlands forces west with him. Plus some of the Freys were with Roose, I believe.

Agree to disagree then.

Edited September 26, 2015 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

Well, I read Dany's most recent chapter.  It's always a little painful for me to encounter anything about the Unsullied because back in the day, of course we found out we were being called the Unsullied, because in the mod thread people were openly referring to the Completely Unspoiled group as the Unsullied.  I thought it was such a cute nickname and was actually sort of touched by it.   That feeling lessened decidedly when the Unsullied appeared on the show and they were enslaved Eunuchs forced to kill an infant to prove they were truly worthy of being Unsullied. 

 

Yeah, so gosh, and I thought it couldn't get worse from there, but oh how wrong I was.  So apparently the Unsullied have to strangle a dog on top of all of that? Jeez, I'd hate to know what nickname you all rejected as being too mean, because that must have been a doozy.   Here's an idea: Please don't tell me.  Holy crap.  I really didn't think it could get worse than the "Ooookay.  Mutilated baby killing warriors?  So....really not cute as a nickname, that's for sure." I don't honestly know what to say about that, so I guess the less said on it the better.  However, it's not like you guys really knew any of us at the time either, so bygones and onward. 

 

I can't tell if Jorah recognized Barristan or not, but I'm sort of assuming he must on some level.  I did like how incredibly uncomfortable Dany now is around him, how he has to know what that's about, and how he finds a way to  -- all things considered -- tell her not to overrate honor and loyalty for its own sake when trying to win things. 

 

I'm also more than a tiny bit freaked out that Messandei is ten?   I'm so grateful to HBO for aging the hell out of a lot of these characters, I'm telling you. 

 

Okay, so I think I've sorted out who was who in the Laughing Knight story.    The Frogman had to actually be Howland Reed, right?  The only other person to ride away from the Tower of Joy with Eddard Stark.   The Wolf pups are pretty easy to identify as the Starks -- although if Ned was the quiet one, who the heck was he dancing with...?  

Is the Storm Lord Robert or is it his father?  I can't figure out who the Lord of Skulls and Bones would be either.  I can sort out who Lyanna was (nice stand-in for Arya action there picking up a sword and defending Howland) the Dragon Knight ....no clue who the King's Mistress was supposed to be though.   So Aery's had a mistress?  

 

If the girl Eddard danced with had violet eyes, then she ought to be a Targaryen too, right?  That's the first clue the story has ever given that Ned might have actually had a crush on someone and is about the only "Wait, is that a possible mother for Jon other than Lyanna?" 

 

So that story fascinated me, even if it was confusing as all hell.   

[Avaleigh]

Is the Storm Lord Robert or is it his father?

I just finished the Clash prologue and we find out that the parents of the Baratheon brothers died when the boys were kids so the Storm Lord has to be Robert going by the timeline IIRC.  

[Crossbow]

Actually there several candidates for Jon's mother. I don't know if you have them all yet; I'm not sure when they are each introduced. They're listed here if you want to know. I think there should be a betting pool.

 

I get confused over who was who in the stories about the past too. The first time I read it I just skimmed over all the past stuff like I do in "Lord of the Rings," but it's turning out to be important. :(

PS. You think being called the Unsullied is bad? What about us Bookwalkers - named after the ultimate evil in the books!

Edited September 30, 2015 by Crossbow

[John Potts]

stillshimpy Jeez, I'd hate to know what nickname you all rejected as being too mean, because that must have been a doozy.

 

 

Well, if we/they were looking for something worse, the only thing I can think of is "Ramsay Snow's dogs", but it wouldn't really fit. TBH, I'd completely forgotten about killing a puppy, as I must have just dismissed that in the "The Unsullied? It sucks to be them. REALLY sucks!" Though binging up a dog and then being forced to kill it really was a training method used by real troops (I think it was the Spartans, but it might have been somebody else).

 

I could comment on Jon's paternity, but I don't really want to go into spoiler territory.

 

ETA: If you listen to this week's EHG (29/9), you'll hear a Game time written by me. Guarantee there's one question you should get!

Edited September 29, 2015 by John Potts

[WindyNights]

@stillshimpy The woman with the laughing purple eyes is Ashara Dayne. In the first book, Cat mentions that it is rumored in Winterfell that she's Jon's true mother. And when Cat confronted Ned about her, it was the only time he ever scared her when he told her that all she needs to know is that Jon is his blood and demanded to know where she heard that name from and from then on the rumors stopped.

Also about that Missandei thing, why would you be grateful for that???

Edited September 29, 2015 by WindyNights

[Crossbow]

The Baratheons in general are called Storm Lords.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Crossbow

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so Robert was older than Stannis -- obviously -- and when the story opens Renly is said to have been a small child when Robert's Rebellion went down.  So there's something like 16 years between Robert and Renly.....so that's why I'm not sure that if the Storm Lord is Robert or his father....because Ned is referred to as the quiet wolf pup (because Benjen was the youngest, right? But Robert and Ned were raised together at the Eyrie.  

 

So it just didn't seem like the story that Meera was relating had The Storm Lord and the quiet Wolf Pup as peers and since Renly's parents had to be alive when he was born (although, in this story....who knows?)  I figured there was room for doubt. 

 

 

 

PS. You think being called the Unsullied is bad? What about us Bookwalkers - named after the ultimate evil in the books!

 

Except that Bookwalkers are the readers who would pretend to be unspoiled and try to force spoilers on us.   Not just people who read the books, so they kind of earned that one.  We actually did make the distinction.  Bookwalker only refers to people who, for whatever reason, would try and spoil people who didn't wish to be.  

 

ETA:

 

Robert Baratheon is referred to as the "Storm Lord" in Feast for Crows, which I'm reading now.

 

Well, thanks.  I'm on book three here. 

Edited September 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Mya Stone]

Let's refrain from bringing in facts from the Wiki and later books.

I don't want to warn people formally, but I can't say it enough. It's in the heading of every page. Cmon, people.

[nksarmi]

I think Ned's reaction to Ashara Dayne is that he liked her and that is who he would have sought to marry if not Catelyn.  I think it's telling that Ned often refers to Jon as "his blood" instead of "his son."

[WindyNights]

Actually he has called Jon his son before.

He doesn't really often refer to Jon as his blood and not his son. I think that only happens once in convo with Cat.

[netlyon2]

Hi, stillshimpy!  FWIW, I've always liked the nickname Unsullied because I associate them with strength, honor, and loyalty.  To me, all of the horrible things connected with their training fall squarely on the heads of the slavemasters.  Of course, Grey Worm is, hands down, my favorite secondary character in the entire series, so I may be a wee bit biased!

 

Just to expand on Weary Traveler's post, and perhaps save some the trouble of looking it up, here's the relevant passage from Catelyn 1 in AGOT:

 

Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers.  They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat.  And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea.  The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.  It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her.  "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice.  "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.  And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady."  She had pledged to obey; she told him, and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

[Lady S.]

Okay, so Robert was older than Stannis -- obviously -- and when the story opens Renly is said to have been a small child when Robert's Rebellion went down.  So there's something like 16 years between Robert and Renly.....so that's why I'm not sure that if the Storm Lord is Robert or his father....because Ned is referred to as the quiet wolf pup (because Benjen was the youngest, right? But Robert and Ned were raised together at the Eyrie.

In the Clash prologue, we learn Robert's parents died in a shipwreck, after a failed expedition to find a bride for Rhaegar. In this story, the dragon prince has a wife, so the elder Baratheons must already be dead, making Robert already Lord of Storm's End, the Storm Lord. Getting into a drinking contest with another knight certainly sounds like him, doesn't it? Is the confusion because Ned's spending time with his real siblings and not with the Storm Lord?

[Delta1212]

In the Clash prologue, we learn Robert's parents died in a shipwreck, after a failed expedition to find a bride for Rhaegar. In this story, the dragon prince has a wife, so the elder Baratheons must already be dead, making Robert already Lord of Storm's End, the Storm Lord. Getting into a drinking contest with another knight certainly sounds like him, doesn't it? Is the confusion because Ned's spending time with his real siblings and not with the Storm Lord?

Hey, maybe Rhaegar was already looking to trade up!

But yeah, I think you're right. That makes sense.

[Crossbow]

Great, now I have to re-read the first book to see when Ned refers to Jon as his son and when he refers to him as his blood.

Well, thanks.  I'm on book three here. 

 

Sounds like he's referred to as the Storm Lord in book three, too.

[stillshimpy]

Sounds like he's referred to as the Storm Lord in book three, too.

 

At present, the Storm Lord has been referred to, but could have been someone other than Robert.  The only reference has been in The Reeds telling the tale of the Laughing Knight and asking repeatedly if Ned had never told Bran the story.  So it could have been an ancient story, but seemed to refer to the Starks in this story and was just one generation removed, although none of that is confirmed. 

 

I was actually trying to puzzle it out and would appreciate not having future details filled in for me which is actually what the post at the top of the thread details and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't do that in the future. Thank you.    

 

 

 

Hi, stillshimpy!  FWIW, I've always liked the nickname Unsullied because I associate them with strength, honor, and loyalty.  To me, all of the horrible things connected with their training fall squarely on the heads of the slavemasters.  Of course, Grey Worm is, hands down, my favorite secondary character in the entire series, so I may be a wee bit biased!

 

Hi, netlyon2 :-)  I have to agree about Grey Worm, he rocks.   I actually don't mind the nickname, but it did kind of crack me up that "Seriously?  Freaking dog murder?"  (I have rescue dogs and work with a bunch of rescue groups where I live, hence the "Oh jeez, anything else I should know about ....?  Do they set pigs afire or something?" joking around).  Plus, I was partially razzing Mya, who knows me on Facebook and about 90% of my FB activity has to do with dog rescue.   The other ten percent has to do with liberal politics, so I'm assuming that next up: The Unsullied Off a  Progressive as a rite of passage ;-) 

 

 

 

In the Clash prologue, we learn Robert's parents died in a shipwreck, after a failed expedition to find a bride for Rhaegar. In this story, the dragon prince has a wife, so the elder Baratheons must already be dead, making Robert already Lord of Storm's End, the Storm Lord. Getting into a drinking contest with another knight certainly sounds like him, doesn't it? Is the confusion because Ned's spending time with his real siblings and not with the Storm Lord?

 

Actually, I was chatting with Mya about it last night on Facebook and it was actually referring to the Starks siblings as "Pups" that kept throwing me.   

The Laughing Knight being in borrowed armor, but being called short of stature sort of suggests Howland Reed.  Mya told me there's a theory that it was Lyanna Stark, which I think is an awesome freaking theory and actually makes a lot of things make sense.  However, not the booming voice.   So I'm not sure that one is a given.  

 

I thought all the Stark men were tallish and it seems like a big story to tell as a legend/fairytale if it is just the exploits of their father.   But I'm assuming that it has something to do with the entire "Howland Reed was the only person to ride away from the Tower of Joy with Ned Stark."  

 

 

 

I think Ned's reaction to Ashara Dayne is that he liked her and that is who he would have sought to marry if not Catelyn.  I think it's telling that Ned often refers to Jon as "his blood" instead of "his son."

 

Well, in the first book when Ashara Dayne is brought up, it's only in Cat's POV and she's dead, but said to have been very beautiful.  When Ned shuts down any talk of Jon's mother, it seems like it is more related to "No one will ever speak of Jon's mother" versus being related to Ashara Dayne...until that particular passage, which makes it sound like Ned likely had a crush on her, at the very least.  

That's the first passage in three books that makes it seem plausible that Jon really could be Ned's son, but the problem is that Ned is Sans Head and therefore Dead ....and he never spared her even one thought in a POV chapter.  :-/   He did think of "Promise me, Ned!" over and over and....over some more.  

So that's part of the reason that it just doesn't seem particularly plausible that Jon is really his son.  He never thinks of Jon's mother as such.  So if he had some great love, or even a mild crush, he never spares her a thought.  When Robert gets the name "Willa" out of him....that's kind of clearly unlikely.   Whereas it's possible that Ned went to brothel before marrying, it seems really, really unlikely that he got it on with a random camp follower.  I mean, he practically punches Petyr in the face just for taking him to a very mild (compared to the show) version of a brothel.  

 

I was pretty jazzed to see that there's at least something to support the possibility that Ned was in love with someone else, since that seems about the only way he'd actually cheat on his wife.  

I'd personally LOVE it if Jon turned out to really be Ned's son.  I fought for that for years in the Unsullied thread and the reason is the same one I've always given:  It just makes him such a Dudley Doright if Jon isn't his son, but Ned sacrifices the perception of his honor for his sister's son. Catelyn was obviously pretty enamored of Brandon (and the story of how Brandon really died is the most horrible thing I've read in ages, I'm so glad she didn't know it) ...and she remembers marrying Brandon's brother ....this extremely serious, quiet guy. 

 

For some reason, as a detail, that bugged me.  Yes, people are generally solemn when most of their family has been murdered and a remaining member is at the center of a damned war.  So it bugged me that Ned was never anyone's first choice and even his wife apparently just took the "You did the deed with someone else, despite the fact that we barely freaking knew each other and probably had about the least fun wedding night known to god or man"  grudge so seriously, she held it against Ned and Jon for the rest of Ned's life. 

To be punished for that damned long (what a giddy first few years they must have had...eek) it would be nice if he actually did something other than make himself into a Harry Hairshirt of a Martyr ....some more.  

The one thing I wish that had been in a Catelyn POV...the one thing that might make that seem less horrible....is if she'd ever had the thought that "If it had all been a rumor, but Brandon appeared, unscathed....would I have not done the same?"  thing instead of the (pretty ludicrous) attempts to see Cersei and Jaime Lannister's POV in pushing Bran out of the fucking window. 

 

Actually, in the books?  That has bothered the living hell out of me.  Both Cat and Ned -- for completely unbelievable reasons -- have the thought that they can kind of get where Jaime and Cersei are coming from....but Cat is seethingly angry that Ned (may have) screwed someone else when he barely knew her, had every reason to believe she was actually in love with his dead brother and ...oh, by the way....was at war and had the possibility of his own death looming.  

 

It's part of the reason I was glad to read that poor, doomed Robb is at least having a lot of sex....because someone named Stark ought to do something fun, once or twice a book. 

 

Edited September 30, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

Except that Bookwalkers are the readers who would pretend to be unspoiled and try to force spoilers on us.   Not just people who read the books, so they kind of earned that one.  We actually did make the distinction.  Bookwalker only refers to people who, for whatever reason, would try and spoil people who didn't wish to be.

 

Outside of the Unsullied Habitat anyone who has read the books is referred to as a bookwalker.

 

Please don't take offense at the term "Unsullied."  It was never meant to be derisive, but rather it was applied with affection.  Doesn't everyone love Grey Worm?

 

As for the Tale of the Laughing Knight, it's part history, part allegory, so not everything could be quite factual.

[nksarmi]

Actually he has called Jon his son before.

He doesn't really often refer to Jon as his blood and not his son. I think that only happens once in convo with Cat.

He tells Jon that while he didn't give him his name, he is of his blood as they say goodbye. 

 

And I've read that when Ned is thinking about rather or not he would do the same as Cersei & Jamie for his children, that he thinks of every child by name EXCEPT Jon.  I can't confirm because I don't have a copy of Game of Thrones, but someone is welcome to look that up.

 

I believe Ned clearly loves Jon so I don't think his status as a bastard would keep him from calling him son - especially as they are saying goodbye and Ned is clearly fondly thinking of Jon's mother.

You know if shimpy keeps reading like this, she will easily be caught up before April of next year and I can't wait to hear what she thinks of the changes the show has made more recently - which ones were good, which ones were bad, etc.... Not to jump too far ahead, it's just that this thread is about the best thing I can imagine for killing time before the next season.  And it's reminding me of things I had kind of forgotten so it's a nice refresh.  So really, thanks again shimpy for sharing your thoughts with us along this journey!!!!

Edited September 30, 2015 by nksarmi

[mac123x]

I can't tell if Jorah recognized Barristan or not, but I'm sort of assuming he must on some level.  I did like how incredibly uncomfortable Dany now is around him, how he has to know what that's about, and how he finds a way to  -- all things considered -- tell her not to overrate honor and loyalty for its own sake when trying to win things.

Jorah’s saying “Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought honorably, Rhaegar fought nobly, and Rhaegar died” is one of my favorite lines from the books.  I’m glad they included it in the show.

So that story fascinated me, even if it was confusing as all hell.

I’m really interested in hearing your speculation as to who was in the Knight of the Laughing Tree’s armor.

[stillshimpy]

Outside of the Unsullied Habitat anyone who has read the books is referred to as a bookwalker.

 

Haleth, gingerella coined that term, at least to the best of my knowledge she was the person who did, because it was in a PM to me, no less and it was specifically about the people in the TWoP thread trying to forcibly spoil us.   So it was used to for people trying to spoil us....and then you guys seemed to pick it up on your own and we knew that there were readers watching the thread and reporting bookwalkers.

 

But unless the term existed in fandom before about episode 3 of the first season, I was there for the birth of it and still have the text of that PM somewhere around.  It was actually pretty funny....because we had no freaking clue that WhiteWalkers were the ultimate evil when we started using it.  We weren't even sure what the White Walkers were....other than necromancers....and had no clue they were the ultimate evil.  <--- we didn't KNOW precisely what a White Walker was when we started using the term Bookwalker.   

 

 

 

Please don't take offense at the term "Unsullied."  It was never meant to be derisive, but rather it was applied with affection.  Doesn't everyone love Grey Worm?

 

Seriously and sincerely, I truly do not take offense. 

 

More than anything, it's just the deep irony that I -- again personally -- thought, "Oh that's so cute! It's like we're pure or something! And it could have been so much worse!"  (that remark actually exists somewhere in the mod thread on the way way back machine, by the way....me saying what a relief it was, because it was so relatively positive compared to what we might have been called)....

 

So it was darkly funnier than hell when the Unsullied showed up....but when I say it makes me feel uncomfortable....it's because I was on public record -- some more, again -- looking like an absolute moron for thinking it was so cute.  

 

ETA:  Ha, actually....there's also a post somewhere in that archived thread from me AFTER I found out what the Unsullied actually were....and don't worry, we were all pretty darned good natured about it. But I'm pretty sure the post features a lot of "OH MY GOD, that's not CUTE!! For the record, I don't think slavery is cute!" type of mortification on my part. I was embarrassed.  Not offended. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

By the way, in a complete aside:  there were also people who kept coming into the thread desperately trying to help us....and truly trying to help us...not pretending to not have read the books....specifically to try and help because we couldn't keep any of the names straight.  I also have a terrible habit of making up a nickname for anyone who appears onscreen whose name I can't recall. 

 

So I remember calling Rodrik "Sideburns" and since the first time we saw Littlefinger and Varys together was in that brothel scene about the dagger, I was calling Varys (master of whispers was all I caught) "Cloak" and Petry "Dagger" because of Knifey: The World's Most Distinctive Knife being his knife.  

 

All these incredibly kind people were leaping in trying to help, half of whom actually knew me from BSG days and ....it was chaos....I think I was personally responsible for something like a dozen people getting warned (hopefully not, our mod rocked and was very understanding....Montykins/Dietrich) ...so yeah, I'm positive that we were only calling people trying to spoil us bookwalkers....at least at first.  

 

And that's also why I was so relieved that the nickname for anything involving me didn't feature something like stillstupid or something :-D 

 

ETA: Oh and someone asked why I was so relieved that HBO aged Missandei up from 10 and -- again, one of the things I chatted with Mya about last night -- got cleared up.  I was relieved because in the show, Grey Worm spies on Missandei while she's naked.  Hence my relief that she's not ten in the show....but did find out that that is a show-only thing.  So....never mind on that one. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

Honestly, there is zero reason to feel embarrassed about anything you've posted on Unsullied (or here :) ) because 1) no one is keeping score, and 2) your surprise when you discover that things are not what you thought is such a delight to us.  We can't wait for you to reach certain points in the books. It's like watching your kid open a Christmas present.  Don't revisit past comments with any regret. 

 

As for "bookwalkers," I didn't realize you guys created the name.  But it really has been adopted in the spoiler topics to mean anyone who has read the books. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Haleth

[mac123x]

Ah, I see you answered my KotLT question earlier, sorry I missed that.  I'm firmly in the "Lyanna Stark with some unknown possibly mystical help disguising her voice" camp.

 

Catelyn was obviously pretty enamored of Brandon (and the story of how Brandon really died is the most horrible thing I've read in ages, I'm so glad she didn't know it) ...and she remembers marrying Brandon's brother ....this extremely serious, quiet guy.

 

For some reason this made me think that Ned had a milder version of Stannis's Middle Child Syndrome growing up.  Loud outgoing boisterous older brother, charming and well-loved younger sibling, stoic honorable duty-driven middle child. 

[jellyroll2]

For some reason this made me think that Ned had a milder version of Stannis's Middle Child Syndrome growing up.  Loud outgoing boisterous older brother, charming and well-loved younger sibling, stoic honorable duty-driven middle child. 

You know I never considered this but I think it's pretty spot on. Not as severe as Stannis' and his actions take on different forms and have different results but I can completely see Middle Child Syndrome from Ned.

[WindyNights]

He tells Jon that while he didn't give him his name, he is of his blood as they say goodbye.

Show-only though.

[stillshimpy]

Thank you, Haleth, that's super kind.  It's fun getting to ask questions too, because good gawd, I know we talked about this when they first appeared in the books....but the depiction of the Reeds in the show, vs. the books is a HUGE one.  

 

What was the fandom reception of that change?  In the show they really seems so sketchy (they threaten Osha, no matter how smilingly done, in the show Osha is the only reason the boys survived the sack of Winterfell) so that seemed a clue that: No, don't trust them.  I also remember my favorite piece of Unsullied Speculation that for a long time I was really disappointed didn't turn out to be the case:  Pallas guessed that Meera had to help Jojen with everything, not because he was smaller or weaker, but because he was dead.  That they were actually agents of the White Walkers (yeah, we didn't really have a handle on what a White Walker was and I still sort of don't entirely, but I dig their armor at least) sent to deliver Bran to the North. 

 

But that's how evil they were coming off to us without any context and the only thing that offset that was that the kid playing Jojen managed to convey such a sense of truly loving Bran as a friend and compatriot....at least at first.  Once they were in dream training land, I went back to thinking "Oh wow, what if Pallas was right?" 

 

So....I'm sure you were all frustrated by the show's depiction of the Reeds, at least at first....but if they ever try to convey that "this is what happened at the Tower of Joy" type of thing via a Bran Vision or anything, wow, will that ever lack context on the show.  

[Delta1212]

I thought finding them randomly in the woods was a little goofy, but otherwise I was fine with the Reeds.

It was frustrating because I was watching you guys fall for what was obviously not intended to be a misdirect but wound up being one anyway, but if I hadn't been reading the Unsullied thread, I don't think it would have registered as much of a negative except for the unfortunate budgeting issue that delayed their introduction and impact as characters.

I'll echo the sentiment that you have nothing to be embarassed about and much of the time the 'wrong' speculations were very interesting, insightful and, at a minimum entertaining. If I wanted to read a bunch of words from people who were going to correctly predict everything that was going to happen, I'd have talked to other book readers.

(Ok, I did that, too).

Edit:

Oh, one thing I realized I never brought up when we got to the relevant portion partially because it didn't take place on-screen in the book.

Robb's wedding on the show took place in a religious ceremony reflecting the Seven despite the fact that Robb, as a Northerner in general, the Lord of Winterfell and especially newly minted King in the North would have been a follower of the Old Gods and probably would have had a ceremony more akin to the one shown for Sansa and Ramsay at a weirwood. Especially since his bride wasn't even Westerosi and therefore would probably have been unlikely to be a follower of the faith of the Seven herself.

When this was pointed out to the writers after the fact, the response was something along the lines of "Oops, you're right."

Edited September 30, 2015 by Delta1212

[nksarmi]

Show-only though.

Really!?!?!?! I swore that was in the books as well. 

 

Regarding the Reeds and threatening Osha, I kind of took that for some combination of a) wanting to show that even though Meera was a skinny girl - she was a force to be reckoned with and b) that they were going to lead Bran to his destiny even if the path seemed like a crazy choice so they were leery of someone who might try to lead Bran in a different direction.

 

In retrospect, without the context of knowing they were sent by their father even before everything went down at Winterfell, I can see why some people were suspicious.  Heck, I was suspicious of Talisa on the show because of the long debate about if the Westerlings set Robb (and if they did, who was involved).  Before I realized they were going the "true love" path - I thought she might be a Lannister spy.

Edited September 30, 2015 by nksarmi

[jellyroll2]

While that did make me roll my eyes a bit in the show, they focused so little on the religion that it probably didn't make a difference. PLUS while there are weirwoods in the south, they're not as common there as they are in the north. Show makes it seem like they're not in the south at all if you stop and think about it. So Robb & Talisa as well as Robb & Jeyne probably did marry by the Seven. Can't recall Ned & Cat's wedding was talked about yet so I won't mention it. I think Robb just went with the most convenient option. HOWEVER I do agree that I wish a bit more research had gone into that. It was a pretty simple thing to do. They were standing in front of a big ass tree anyway. Just make it a weirwood.

 

The interesting thing is that people seem to recognize marriages no matter what faith it was performed in or what the two people actually practice. So southerners marrying by the old gods, northerners marrying by the Seven...everyone seems to recognize the marriage as legit if there are no other barriers. Like in the real world, if two Jewish people got married by a Catholic priest, would other Jewish people consider them married (in the spiritual sense not the legal one)? I don't know.

 

 

Really!?!?!?! I swore that was in the books as well. 

Nope. Show only