Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Protar]

Well the first two items on my list where

 

- you finally getting into Jaime's head. That's going to be fun.

- Arya being a warg. I was sure you'd flip on them omitting another Stark kid being a warg. 

 

Number three though. *giggles*

[Avaleigh]

I'm one of those who loved the prologue. What does it for me are the three blows of the horn. It's like fucking hell, shit just got real. Plus, I loved seeing Chett's plans go to hell because of the snowfall. Just an all around horrible human being. 

 

I really love the NW stuff in this book and the fifth book. 

 

I'm also really looking forward to what you think of Jaime being a POV. 

[Protar]

One of my complaints with the Season 2 finale, and I know it's a nitpick, is that they didn't get the horn blows right. They went by too fast. In the book I get this great impression of two horns blowing off and the camp going into a commotion over a wilding attack. And then after quite a pause, the third horn goes off. A big, long blast, followed by the entire camp in horrified silence. In the show it's just toot toot toot. 

Edited September 13, 2015 by Protar

[Eegah]

One of the more baffling decisions in Season 2 was to have Theon kill all the Winterfell ravens and prevent word of Bran and Rickon's supposed deaths getting to Robb's camp. Because Catelyn thinking they were dead in the books was absolutely believable as something that would nudge her over the edge into being desperate enough to set Jaime free on the chance she could get Sansa and Arya back safely. In the show it came off more as a stupidly impulsive thing she just randomly came up with one night.

 

I absolutely understand that they could never afford to do it right, but I deeply regret not getting to see Brienne climb a mountain and drop a boulder on their pursuers.

[stillshimpy]

Arya being a warg. I was sure you'd flip on them omitting another Stark kid being a warg.

 

Wait, what?  She's a warg? I honest-to-god didn't pick up that she was a warg.  I didn't think she was in anyway controlling any of the wolves.  Sansa's dreamt of wolves also, after Lady was dead.  

 

Are all the freaking Stark kids Wargs?? Yes, I know, Jon's parentage, yadda bladda, we don't know.  Are all Stark Minors Wargs then?  

 

I thought of the wolves as Arya's spirit animals, I didn't realize she was in anyway controlling anything.  

 

 

 

One of the more baffling decisions in Season 2 was to have Theon kill all the Winterfell ravens and prevent word of Bran and Rickon's supposed deaths getting to Robb's camp. Because Catelyn thinking they were dead in the books was absolutely believable as something that would nudge her over the edge into being desperate enough to set Jaime free on the chance she could get Sansa and Arya back safely. In the show it came off more as a stupidly impulsive thing she just randomly came up with one night.

 

It is sooooooo freaking important that Catelyn releases Jaime the same night she learns that Bran and Rickon are -- as far as she knows, or will ever know -- dead.  

 

Why the hell did they remove anything justifying, clever or interesting about all Starks save Bran? 

 

ETA:  You know, while I was reading Arya's chapter, for about three sentences I thought, "is she supposed to be....?"  but then since it was just some random wolf pack, I thought it was more the "wolves are the spirit animals of the Starks" rather than being a Warg.  I'm still a little tripped out by that interpretation.  

 

In Jon's chapter it was clear as hell that he was, but I didn't think it was with Arya, because Sansa had also dreamt of wolves.  

Edited September 13, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Mya Stone]

Oh shimpy, no no no. I HATE Chett with the fire of a thousand suns. My favorite prologue was Maester Cressen in ACOK.

[Protar]

From my first read I took that dream as warging. I don't think warging necessarily entails exerting control over the animal. It's also possible to just go along with the ride per say, which IIRC is how Jon's wolf dream towards the end of ACOK goes. It's been a while since I've done a reread though so maybe the style is different. But yes, I think it should be read as those events are actually happening, ergo Arya is seeing things through the eyes of a real wolf.

[Mya Stone]

I would especially pay attention to the location of the pack. Actually, if you track what people have said about a great pack of wolves (and who, or what, the pack leader is) , it all makes sense. ;)

I just hit copy on my kindle file:

Her dreams were red and savage. The Mummers were in them, four at least, a pale Lyseni and a dark brutal axeman from Ib, the scarred Dothraki horse lord called Iggo and a Dornishman whose name she never knew. On and on they came, riding through the rain in rusting mail and wet leather, swords and axe clanking against their saddles. They thought they were hunting her, she knew with all the strange sharp certainty of dreams, but they were wrong. She was hunting them. She was no little girl in the dream; she was a wolf, huge and powerful, and when she emerged from beneath the trees in front of them and bared her teeth in a low rumbling growl, she could smell the rank stench of fear from horse and man alike.The Lyseni’s mount reared and screamed in terror, and the others shouted at one another in mantalk, but before they could act the other wolves came hurtling from the darkness and the rain, a great pack of them, gaunt and wet and silent. The fight was short but bloody. The hairy man went down as he unslung his axe, the dark one died stringing an arrow, and the pale man from Lys tried to bolt. Her brothers and sisters ran him down, turning him again and again, coming at him from all sides, snapping at the legs of his horse and tearing the throat from the rider when he came crashing to the earth. Only the belled man stood his ground. His horse kicked in the head of one of her sisters, and he cut another almost in half with his curved silvery claw as his hair tinkled softly. Filled with rage, she leapt onto his back, knocking him head-first from his saddle. Her jaws locked on his arm as they fell, her teeth sinking through the leather and wool and soft flesh. When they landed she gave a savage jerk with her head and ripped the limb loose from his shoulder. Exulting, she shook it back and forth in her mouth, scattering the warm red droplets amidst the cold black rain.

[Haleth]

We can't say for certain if all the Stark kids are wargs since Sansa lost Lady before she could tap into her ability. Imagine how different things would have been if she still had her dire wolf familiar.

[Autarch]

I'm one of those who loved the prologue.

Same here. Easily my favorite prologue. The way Martin set the scene (we really got the first hint of Chett's plan in Clash, when Jon overhears them but decides not to tell Mormont), keeping the tension increasing until the final blast of the horn. I also really liked Chett -- not in as I'd want to hang out with the guy, but the way Martin wrote him; so bitter, and his final memory of the girl he killed, the way he almost seemed sorry, and his surprise that he could think of her any other way than her dying. It recalled Theon and his cold dreams and how the dead haunted them, which could have some significance in the long run. 

[Delta1212]

That wolfpack that occasionally gets mentioned dancing around the fringes of the story is one of those things that I really, really hope is a gun on the mantel that has its trigger pulled and isn't just window dressing for the story.

[nksarmi]

If you've only come across one, it might not be clear why I feel this way, but the omission of Arya's wolf dreams are one of my biggest complaints of the show.

 

But regarding the Stark children all being wargs?  Are we allowed to answer questions when you ask them like that? :)  Let's just say there is a reason why I almost chocked when you said at the start of this read that you hated the use of the wolves on the show.  It almost made me cry that the show had so failed to demonstrate why the dire wolves matter to the Stark children.

[Autarch]

I would especially pay attention to the location of the pack. Actually, if you track what people have said about a great pack of wolves (and who, or what, the pack leader is) , it all makes sense. ;)

 

Specifically, things like this, when talking about the wolves that have grown bolder around the God's Eye (from Clash):

 

"'The one that leads them is a she-wolf, a bitch from the seventh hell.'

A she-wolf. Arya sloshed her beer, wondering. Was the Gods Eye near the Trident? She wished she had a map. It had been near the Trident that she’d left Nymeria."

 

Are little bits are the wolves Roose hears howling outside Harrenhal, and how Arya says she'll howl to signal Hot Pie and Gendry to follow -- and in fact a wolf does howl after she kills the guard.

[John Potts]

I had the impression that all the Stark children could Warg into their wolves, but only Bran actually ever really tried

at least until Arya loses her sight.

Necessity being the mother of magical abilities & all that.

 

stillshimpy Because I'm 90 pages in and thus far, nothing of a truly astounding nature has occurred.

 

 

Actually, that was pretty much my recollection of the book, too - it surprised me when I heard people describe it as their favourite because my abiding memory was of absolutely nothing happening for the first half. Without spoiling (much), it does pick up later.

[Lavignac]

Well, from what Shimpy has had the opportunity to read, Arya did not demonstrate any clear control of a wolf. It's dreams. Could they be regular dreams, or is she reading from the wolf's mind? To me, little hints like using the word "mantalk" to describe what the wolf hears, tells me that she is analyzing with a wolf-colored mind, if you catch my meaning... To me, that's different from a little girl dreaming of her pet. Let's call it "First Person howler"...

 

The nice thing about GRRM's writing is that he has these wonderfully ambiguous plot points, which spark endless fan discussion. Some hypotheses are later proved right or wrong,  but many more remain as internet forum fodder!

[ambi76]

Poor freaking Sansa, again, another character I wanted to pity, but that was Sansa at her least likable all "Oh brave, smart, dreamy Ser Loras...."

 

Hm. I must say I'm rather puzzled why people are so hard on Sansa for crushing on hot young dudes. It's really not her fault they all turn out to be fucktards or gay or both. It's actually getting a bit ridiculous in universe what with

Harry the nasty heir and probably (f)Aegon too

. She's thirteen. IMHO she's allowed to have dumb crushes on hot young dudes. Hell, I'm almost forty and have dumb crushes on hot young dudes (yeah it's getting a bit creepy these days *sigh*).

 

Granted Loras is pretty low on the fucktard charts as far a Sansa is concerned but he is there (and gay to boot) as this chapter proves. And as this is a chapter where my favorite minor character actually has some lines and I need distraction from

Finn's alleged show!Loras season six fate spoilers, that make me want to vomit

, you folks will now have to bear with my meta here. Sucks to be you. :P

 

Poor Sansa indeed. I mean she is trying so hard with Loras here and then she even gets that he doesn't remember her at all. In her disappointment though, she of all things first mentions Loras best friend Robar (that he killed in a fit of rage) and since that was obviously a faux pas she then tries to express her condolences to his sister Margaery for Renly's death and you just have the feeling at this point the chivalrious knight Ser Loras is short of strangling her. Sansa senses this too but has now idea why, and how could she?

 

That Loras would rather like some condolence about Renly for himself is of course another "clue" about their secret relationship just as his utter amnesia concerning Sansa. Loras's rage-killing of Robar and Emmon that was given to Brienne on the show (and in self defense) also shows the darker and violent side of our Knight of the Flowers, that I sorely miss on the show. IMHO he really had a kind of psychotic break over Renly's death.

Looks like he will finally have a psychotic break on the show too, if about something else entirely *seethe*

.

 

As for the sassy Queen of Thorns, I'm glad to hear shimpy wouldn't like to have that as a roommate/grandma. I don't even find her all that funny. Just really nasty.

Edited September 14, 2015 by ambi76

[feverfew]

First of all, Shimpy, I just want to say that I've really enjoyed reading your take on the books. It's a bit like reading them for the first time again. And you have some very interesting perspectives on stuff. So thank you for this journey!

 

I'm one of those bookwalkers who really loves the show - and the books. I give D&D a lot of leeway; one of my best friends works for a major production studio, and I know from him that even the best intentions can get twisted by budget reasons, time restraints and producer interference. I'm also not a bookwalker who thinks Martin's text is sacrosanct, and actually think the show has improved on some aspects of the books. That doesn't mean I like every choice D&D made (over-reliance on female nudity is a bother), but I don't believe - as some fans do - that D&D intentionally do stuff just to spite the fans of the books. Also; their interpretation of Stannis falls in line with mine, so there's that ;) I just wanted to pipe in and say that as a massive fan of the books and Martin's worldbuilding, I still love the universe and the storylines D&D have created.

 

If you've only come across one, it might not be clear why I feel this way, but the omission of Arya's wolf dreams are one of my biggest complaints of the show.

 

But regarding the Stark children all being wargs?  Are we allowed to answer questions when you ask them like that? :)  Let's just say there is a reason why I almost chocked when you said at the start of this read that you hated the use of the wolves on the show.  It almost made me cry that the show had so failed to demonstrate why the dire wolves matter to the Stark children.

I think that disappointment maybe stems a little bit from fan theories as well? I'm not saying you made up their importance, but I never really read them as being as important as you obviously did. Actually I think it maybe has something to do with what you enjoy in the story as well; I mean, I prefer the politics of Kings Landing to the lost heir-tropes and the overt fantasy elements (saying this as a major fantasy nerd!) in this particular story, so I mainly read the wolves as symbols (the white runt for the outsider, dead Lady for the Tully-like Stark). I might be wrong of course, and it'll turn out that warging is of major importance in the resolution of the story, but so far I'm good with the amount we've gotten in the show. Also, working with animals is a pain (as well as the CGI necessary for direwolves), and I understand why the show runners has dialed back on the focus on them.

[stillshimpy]

Hm. I must say I'm rather puzzled why people are so hard on Sansa for crushing on hot young dudes. It's really not her fault they all turn out to be fucktards or gay or both.

 

Okay, on the one hand, that's a fair point, ambi and one I've made myself a lot.  However, there are specific reasons why it annoyed me this time:  Whereas there's no way for a person to sustain living in terror all the time, at a pitched emotion  -- even people in terrible circumstances daydream, joke, act like themselves -- it actually doesn't fit with the situation Sansa is in at all.  She's been through more than enough to be extremely wary of walking into a new situation, with unknown people.  

 

She's summoned to a dinner by Margaery and has the wits to wonder what Marg's intentions might or might not be.  She's in a very dangerous situation and is aware that she's in a very dangerous situation, so it was the least appropriate moment for her to be all silly and gushy about a boy....and here's the thing, whereas it's not like that shit is reserved for appropriate times in real life....Sansa's been through enough hell that she ought to have been too nervous about what she was walking into to be quite that fixated on Loras.  

 

Whereas I think people are very hard on Sansa and unfairly so, that was one instance where it felt like Martin was trying to show a character trait at the wrong time.  "She's still an adolescent girl who loves fairytales and the thought that life is pretty and shiny, and people are good....she's still Sansa Stark....viewing things through fairytale colored glasses" but he tried to do it in circumstances that diminished the character from who she was at the end of the last book.  

He actually pulled at least a little bit of a reset on Sansa there and it was very obvious only having one week between the books.  By the end of the second book, Sansa is looking at Dontos as if "If only he wasn't always an idiot drunkard and could actually do something...but at least he's trying, poor man"....she had a much clearer view into the reality of her "Florian" at the end of the second book than the third book opens with and it kind of ticked me off.  Not at Sansa, but that Martin undermined the character growth he had allowed her previously.  

 

So it just felt like a reversion to a type of character for Sansa, than portraying the Sansa of the last chapters of the last book.   She's thirteen, but she had enough wits about her to wonder what Marg's motives were and to fear them.  So getting that twitterpated about Loras, at that time, really didn't fit.  Plus, honestly, I would expect that her reaction to the concept of the knight in shining armor might be permanently altered by now.  

 

I know that it was all just a set up to pee in her lemonade yet again with the "What? The dreamy one?  Are you an idiot?  No, instead, we're marrying you off to the slightly crippled heir ...and sending you home with the woman who's called you some version of stupid no less than three times in about as many minutes!  But the gardens there will certainly have the most beautiful of roses....beware the thorns....and the overall complete suckage of your life."  

 

 

 

I think that disappointment maybe stems a little bit from fan theories as well? I'm not saying you made up their importance, but I never really read them as being as important as you obviously did.

 

Don't get me wrong, I was happy to know that the people pursuing Arya were ripped to shreds,  but I'd also figured out about two books ago that the wolves were the Stark kids spirit animals.  That they have an affinity for and a tie to wolves.  It also didn't come as a particular shock to me that Arya had something vaguely magical about her, because Arya has been surrounded by that kind of stuff all along.   

 

I just didn't read that chapter and think, "Zounds, holy cats!! Arya is a Warg!" but instead "Arya -- the wildest of the Stark children save Rickon -- is astrally projecting and watching the wolf pack we already knew was following them, tear their other pursuers to shreds."   

 

I'm sorry, Mya, I did know that you loved the previous book's prologue a lot and that I completely understood.  A lot of people here were saying that they were really looking forward to my reaction to the prologue and I thought you were among them.   For the record, going forward, basically where there's animal abuse in anything, I just hate it.  It's a tool that I HATE in fiction.  I know it's a character development tool used by a lot of writers:  Want to show who someone is?  Show how they relate to an animal.  

 

Similarly he also developed Small Paul with the same tool:  He doesn't want to kill the Raven.  He doesn't think that's fair, or necessary.  He's meant to be a little simple, too easily led by the nose, but he actually has something resembling compassion.  He'd just as soon not kill Mormont too (frankly, several of the characters there seemed to have wandered in from a Steinbeck characterization), but he's a simple and large man used for his brute strength.   

 

That was some deft writing throughout, it's just a particular narrative tool that I do not like.  It distracts me and draws my focus and some not insubstantial fury.  

 

It also then had the regrettable side effect of making me not give a damn about what happened to Chett, even when he was experiencing his -- I suspect -- only moment of anything resembling compassion for the girl he murdered.  I understand that's he's just supposed to be a product of his own environment and poor treatment, but my biggest regret about where the chapter ended was that I didn't get to see him perish.  

 

Also, with the exception of Arya, all of the character so far have had a little bit of that "okay, I see we've taken a step backward from the character development achieved in the last book"  ....I've never had a Jaime POV, so clearly he can't have, but Tyrion -- who was so skillful in planning for the Blackwater, so good at managing people -- just reverts to a petulant child when talking to his father.  

 

Maybe that's a realistic thing, but it was still sort of dismaying.  As soon as he's saying, "A little gratitude would be nice!" he's reverted to his season one characterization.   That's probably realistic when it comes to how a person would relate to a cold and distant parent, but it did feel like a bit of reset for Tyrion also.  For one thing, perhaps I'm just remembering the show version, but Tyrion was always there to serve as Hand in his father's stead.   So he seemed overly irked that his father was actually acting as Hand. 

 

I'm stalling a little bit, because next up:  Jon.   Since there have been some reverting to earlier characterization points in other characters, I'm more than a little worried about encountering the less mature version of Jon, but I guess we shall see.  

 

Oh...and yeah, there was that Davos chapter in there too, which was really and truly boring simply because ....it was pretty much just a long version of what happened on the show.   I knew Davos was going to be rescued.  I know he ends up back with Stannis.  It was thankfully a brief chapter.   By the way, I don't know how I would have read Davos had I read him before seeing how the actor plays him, but I like him because of the actor and read everything he does or says via that actor's work. 

 

I know logistically it would have been nearly impossible to film Brienne sending a boulder into a ship to sink it, but I so wish they'd been able to.  Brienne in the show is almost a comedic figure because she's so ineffectual.  It would have been nice to see something that really conveyed her competency a bit more.  

 

ETA: Oh and by the way, I did note that Lysa was actually knocked up (by Petyr, I'm assuming) when she was married off to Jon Arryn and it sort of made me laugh.  I think it was in the last book that I was commenting that it startled me that Lysa was meant to have been as pretty as Catelyn, because her fate -- being married off to a man that was old enough to practically be her grandfather -- was the fate reserved for young women who were not considered marriageable for some reason.  Not attractive, not particularly bright, too old....something.  

 

So Martin did end up having it make sense, and unfortunately also made it clear that Jon Arryn would have been just a bit of a jackass about the entire thing and treated her like damaged merchandise.  Ick.  

Edited September 14, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ambi76]

... that D&D intentionally do stuff just to spite the fans of the books.

 

Yeah, that would be kinda dumb, but sometimes you really have to wonder. :P

 

Seriously, as a book wanker , yes, even the "horrible" last one(s), I definitely can understand most of D&D reasoning and explanations as to show changes, feverfew,  that doesn't mean I have to like them (I for one am not bothered by the excessive nudity at all, maybe it's a European thing or a pervert thing, one of the two, I guess). And I think it's also a bit dishonest to deny, that some things might come from personal bias (we all have it) with the producers and not just neccessity.

 

As for the complains about to few dragons and wolfies on screen I have to roll my eyes, but then I'm not exactly what you would call a pet person.

Edited September 14, 2015 by ambi76

[ambi76]

Interesting take shimpy. I guess I'm just utterly lenient when it comes to my poor Sansa baby, so can't be bothered to be mad at her for regressing into anime heart-eyes. (He gave her a fucking red rose!!11!1one) That whole scene is just so utterly cringeworthy for Sansa and Loras. Gah.

 

I think we are still waiting for Olenna to say something non-insulting about anyone ever that is not herself or Willas. Her popularity in fandom while understandable still annoys me greatly.

Edited September 14, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

Interesting take shimpy. I guess I'm just utterly lenient when it comes to my poor Sansa baby, so can't be bothered to be mad at her for regressing into anime heart-eyes. That whole scene is just so utterly cringeworthy for Sansa and Loras. Gah.

 

Ah...you see....my irritation was with Martin for regressing her, vs. Sansa.   She was more mature than that, the last time I encountered her and Martin was reverting her to type.  It's one of those things that a writer of a series does:  Just in case there's anyone who picked up this, the third book, without bothering to read the first two....let us establish the known traits of these characters.  

 

He also did it with Sam in the prologue.  It's been quite a while since Sam openly whined about how difficult things are because he's mentally strong and physically out of shape.  For one thing, the dude has been trekking all over the North for kind of a damned while now and he's been at The Wall for a bit too.   He ought to be in slightly better shape, and in fact, the last time I encountered him in the books Martin had given the "fat and weak, weak and fat....and cowardly! Don't forget cowardly....but goodhearted" stuff at least a tiny bit of a rest.  

 

Pick up that "used to the soft life, likes his food, prone to whining" torch again too.  

 

But it isn't the characters I'm taking issue with when pointing that out, it's the exposition for characterization revert-to-type establishing that Martin is doing for that one in a thousand reader:  Person who starts reading a series in the middle of it, having skipped all previous material.  

 

It's actually not necessary, and diminishes characters.  If there is a reader who just says "Hey, I saw it at an airport bookstore, didn't realize it was third in a series, tallyho!  I'm going to read it now!"  it really isn't necessary to be sure to show the figurative ass of every character in that much of a blazing hurry.   I mean, how many sentence does Jaime even get in the book before "Sister shtupping, kingslaying, child flinging , man of impulse and action!" is all very rapidly covered?  

 

Slow the blazes down, Martin.  Apparently this sucker is 1000 pages long.  He didn't need to adopt quite the breakneck "Previously, on this book series....*exposition dump* *brief pause* *more character exposition dump* *some action* "Don't forget Brienne is Ugly!*" ....and man, it's at a breakneck pace. 

[nksarmi]

First of all, Shimpy, I just want to say that I've really enjoyed reading your take on the books. It's a bit like reading them for the first time again. And you have some very interesting perspectives on stuff. So thank you for this journey!

 

I'm one of those bookwalkers who really loves the show - and the books. I give D&D a lot of leeway; one of my best friends works for a major production studio, and I know from him that even the best intentions can get twisted by budget reasons, time restraints and producer interference. I'm also not a bookwalker who thinks Martin's text is sacrosanct, and actually think the show has improved on some aspects of the books. That doesn't mean I like every choice D&D made (over-reliance on female nudity is a bother), but I don't believe - as some fans do - that D&D intentionally do stuff just to spite the fans of the books. Also; their interpretation of Stannis falls in line with mine, so there's that ;) I just wanted to pipe in and say that as a massive fan of the books and Martin's worldbuilding, I still love the universe and the storylines D&D have created.

 

I think that disappointment maybe stems a little bit from fan theories as well? I'm not saying you made up their importance, but I never really read them as being as important as you obviously did. Actually I think it maybe has something to do with what you enjoy in the story as well; I mean, I prefer the politics of Kings Landing to the lost heir-tropes and the overt fantasy elements (saying this as a major fantasy nerd!) in this particular story, so I mainly read the wolves as symbols (the white runt for the outsider, dead Lady for the Tully-like Stark). I might be wrong of course, and it'll turn out that warging is of major importance in the resolution of the story, but so far I'm good with the amount we've gotten in the show. Also, working with animals is a pain (as well as the CGI necessary for direwolves), and I understand why the show runners has dialed back on the focus on them.

Nope the disappointment doesn't stem from any theories because I really don't have any (as I've mentioned in earlier posts - reading book walker posts here make me feel like an unsullied at times because I haven't put as much thought into this as many have).  I think as shimpy has pointed out that the mystery of Jon's parentage and the idea that he might be TPTWP is more obvious than not and doesn't really require a ton of theorizing. 

 

To me, the importance of the Dire Wolves and their relationship to the Stark children is of equal ground to Dany and her relationship with her dragons.  They are more than symbols - they are representative of the fact that Dany is a true Targ and the Starks are blood of the first men. This is the Song of Ice and Fire.  To me, Dany and her dragons are the fire part and the Starks and their wolves are the Ice part.  As fun as all the other stuff is and all the politicking of KL and such - ultimately I believe the Starks and Dany are most important players in this "game" and the real battle has nothing to do with the "game of thrones."

 

So yes, the disappointment is definitely over which part of the story you enjoy the most; but its also because

the wolf dreams serve to keep the siblings connected magically and it makes me sad that the show dropped that

.

[Haleth]

Breakneck pace on a treadmill when you look at the series as a whole. 

 

If you are annoyed with Sansa mooning over Loras,

just wait till she starts thinking about Willas.

<-- That is not really a spoiler for anything but does refer to her next chapter.

[ambi76]

Oh, that Martin does such a reset between books never occured to me because um ... how to put that... my method of reading stuff is a bit unorthodox. I don't think I have ever read anything (fiction) chronologically actually. I usually start at the end or the middle and jump around like mad.

 

However in the end Sansa's infatuation with Loras is utterly inconsequential because, well, it's Loras. Sure, what if he was a psychotic killer ... oh wait, now I see what you mean. XD

 

 

ETA: Oh come on, Haleth, shimpy surely will have to like this

as the fantasy contains a litter of adorable puppies.

;-)

Edited September 14, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

I'm not looking under any tags!  Plus, I'm sorry I got distracted and forgot to say thanks and hi to feverfew, I'm so glad I'm not boring the hell out of people.  So I really appreciate it, thank you.  

 

 

 

Breakneck pace on a treadmill when you look at the series as a whole.

 

But that's precisely why it stands out as "slow down with this....you've clearly left yourself a shitload of time here, what's this rush?"  

 

That's why it stands out.  He's taking a very leisurely pace throughout the narrative, so why in the world did he feel the need to inform me of every darned thing I already knew about the characters in such short order?  The first POV of Jaime contains a grocery list of all known traits.  In the space of about a page and a half.  It was weird to have his POV chapter reveal his thoughts on absolutely everything of note -- save having Ned Stark's men killed in the streets -- that he's already done in the story:  

 

Here's how I feel about my Twin sister:  Besotted, sexually so.  

Here's how I feel about trying to kill Bran:  Brat had it coming, spying bastard.  

Here's how Cersei felt about me throwing Bran out of of window: She was displeased.

Here's a random update on "we don't know who sent the assassin to kill Bran, but all signs point to Littlefinger at present"! 

Here's how Jaime reacts to being called Kingslayer...

 

And dude, that's all in the first two pages of his first POV ever.   It was....really not Martin's most subtle work, you know?  It really could have been entitled:  All the things you've ever wondered about Jaime Lannister: the cliff notes!  Having heaved all that out of the way at an almost ludicrously swift pace, considering the overall length of the book, it just was really sort of an awkward knee and elbow in the narrative. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

I'd forgotten about the character of Small Paul. I actually remember liking the line about how he didn't want them touching Mormont's raven but think the Steinbeck comparison is pretty spot on, so thanks for giving me that laugh, Shimpy. 

 

I didn't remember that we got a glimpse of Chett's hatred of Sam in the first book until doing the reread and it never really made sense that a man like that would be given such a nice position with Maester Aemon. I know the numbers at the NW are low but surely there were other men who were better qualified. 

[Haleth]

Right. He couldn't even read which you think might be an impediment to being the steward for a blind maester.

[Holmbo]

Interesting point about the character regression Shimpy. I have some comments on this but it relates somewhat to the series as a whole so it's to early to mention now. Maybe later.

[Dev F]

It is sooooooo freaking important that Catelyn releases Jaime the same night she learns that Bran and Rickon are -- as far as she knows, or will ever know -- dead.  

 

Why the hell did they remove anything justifying, clever or interesting about all Starks save Bran? 

 

I assume that particular change was a timing issue. Since the show has to compress the book down into ten episodes, with appropriately dramatic end-of-episode moments for each storyline, and it can't just keep big moments like Jaime's attempted escape off screen, there's a real problem with all the big events and character motivators stepping on one another. If Jaime's escape needs to be a big on-screen event, it becomes awkward if Catelyn's decision to let him go in the same episode is motivated by a different big event in some other storyline. So you have to either move Jaime's escape earlier in the season, move Catelyn's decision into a later episode, or prune one of the two motivators. I'm not sure they chose the best solution, but the only good alternate would have been for them to have made very different choices throughout the entire season.

 

It's interesting . . . by far my least favorite seasons of the show are 2 and 5, and they're the two seasons in which the writers seem to have the most trouble with pacing issues like this. Heck, there's a random Lannister guard in season 2 who's named "Weasel," which suggests to me that the writers originally intended to do some version of Arya's "Weasel soup" storyline but just ran out of time. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by Dev F

[WindyNights]

 

We can't say for certain if all the Stark kids are wargs since Sansa lost Lady before she could tap into her ability. Imagine how different things would have been if she still had her dire wolf familiar.

 

GRRM actually answered this for us.

 

"Are all the Stark children wargs/skin changers with their wolves?"

 

"To a greater or lesser degree, yes, but the amount of control varies widely."

 

Also hello, shimpy, I've been lurking for a while but have now decided to pop out and say hello.

[Lady S.]

Well, from what Shimpy has had the opportunity to read, Arya did not demonstrate any clear control of a wolf. It's dreams. Could they be regular dreams, or is she reading from the wolf's mind? To me, little hints like using the word "mantalk" to describe what the wolf hears, tells me that she is analyzing with a wolf-colored mind, if you catch my meaning... To me, that's different from a little girl dreaming of her pet. Let's call it "First Person howler"...

 

Yes, it's not written all that differently from Jon's wolf dream or Bran's early ones before Jojen taught him that he could control Summer. A human just observing a wolf-pack wouldn't smell men the way they do and taste blood. There's no real human perspective there, Arya's thoughts are as if she's leading the wolf-pack herself or at least in the mind of their leader. Which is a far cry from Sansa's vague dreams of running with Lady in a meadow. Maybe that's the closest Sansa can get because she can't get inside a dead wolf's mind, but Arya, whose wolf is still alive, has a much more vivid dream. And coincidentally, Arya's still living wolf was last seen in the riverlands, where there were rumors in Clash of an unusually huge she-wolf leading a great pack of wolves. (I thought about asking if you picked up on that gossip, shimpy, but I didn't know which chapter it was in. Guess that question's answered now.)

Edited September 14, 2015 by Lady S.

[stillshimpy]

I did pick up on that Lady S, but couldn't believe that Nymeria would just be running around in the woods, somewhere nearish to Arya and not help her or go to her now.  Yes, I know, driven away with rocks, but they are clearly psychically linked to their wolves, even if Warging abilities differ (thanks for the answer on that, WindyNights, and hi back at you :-)  )  

 

So I saw that but thought that if Nymeria was nearby when Arya was in so much peril, she'd return.  

 

Also, just as an aside, I've never really understood why Nymeria stayed gone.  My dog Oscar -- not the dog in my avatar, that's my other dog Pud -- was abandoned on a highway.   He's part Great Pyrenees (we had a DNA test performed, he's part GP and part Plott Hound) and they are a very loyal breed.  For the first two months we had him, whenever we were out in public and he spotted a guy in the distance, or a small child, Oscar would desperately try to get to them, presumably because he was looking for his people...who fairly obviously had a small child.  

 

He eventually realized that my husband is the world's greatest dog toy and now sticks to us like glue, but the point would be that animals aren't dissuaded from loving their person very easily.   Oscar was also terrified of the sound of trucks and storm drains, and whereas he's 90 pounds now and meant to be...he was 65 pounds when found.   Animal loyalty and love usually trumps mistreatment and it takes a lot for that to stop being the case. 

 

So I never really got the whole "driven away by Arya, never reappeared by her side" and kept waiting for it to happen in the series.  

Edited September 14, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Magical bond notwithstanding, we are talking about a wolf rather than a domesticated dog. Dogs have developed to be very reliant on human companionship. Wolves not so much.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

But within the story, the Direwolves can't bear to be separated from their ....charges, kids, persons ...so it made even less sense within the story.  

[Holmbo]

I think Nymeria and Arya was separated for so long that Nymeria has become wild and is not looking for her owner/charge anymore. And it's then symbolic with Arya being lost from the Starks and becoming wild.

[Haleth]

That's what I was thinking.  During all the time Arya spent in KL Nymeria was on her own and became (more) feral.  They've lost track of each other except during wolf dreams.  I know lots of readers hope they are reunited before the end.

[Lady S.]

I did pick up on that Lady S, but couldn't believe that Nymeria would just be running around in the woods, somewhere nearish to Arya and not help her or go to her now.  Yes, I know, driven away with rocks, but they are clearly psychically linked to their wolves, even if Warging abilities differ (thanks for the answer on that, WindyNights, and hi back at you :-)  )

Yeah, but we don't know how the psychic bond works from the wolves' end. We've seen the human POVs inside the wolves' heads, not vice versa. How connected is the wolf to the human when they're not physically around? Can they sense when the human is near? Do they feel drawn to them even when not near them? After a months long separation? Is being very closely bonded when they are together the same as loyalty when it's by a supernatural means? Domesticated dogs need their humans, but I think the Starks need their wolves more than the wolves need them, and I'd think any wild animal could revert to the wild easier than a dog could adjust to being abandoned. (May I ask how old Oscar was when you found him?) Edited September 14, 2015 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

I don't think we read about the wolfs thinking of their human. Possibly this is because when they warg they are one and the same. One kind of wonders what the wolfs think about it. Do they get anything out of it?
 

[Autarch]

Also, with the exception of Arya, all of the character so far have had a little bit of that "okay, I see we've taken a step backward from the character development achieved in the last book"  .

 

Interesting. Now that I think of it, this could be related to something I've noticed on my current reread of the book: It seems Martin took into account that this was where his books were getting more popular and so threw in, with most characters, small recaps to bring new readers up to speed (I may be wrong, but I didn't notice he did this in Clash). You'll see it in short paragraphs, and bits of dialogue even (some of it a bit clunky) where Martin states what the reader already would know, most of it obvious. For instance, when talking about Lysa Arryn there's this: "Jon Arryn’s widow, Hoster Tully’s daughter, Catelyn Stark’s sister," a blatant use of the 'as you know' trope jumping out of the page here.

 

For the characters, it's more like he picked up where he left off last time; a similar way to inform the new reader where two characters last stood, which might seem just as out-of-place as some of the dialogue I mentioned. For Loras and Sansa, it seems the interplay between these two characters (and everything they touched upon) was important enough to bring up again, same for Tywin and Tyrion.

 

EDIT: And I see you mentioned exactly this in your next post, Shimpy. There's for fast replies :/

Edited September 14, 2015 by Autarch

[nksarmi]

That's what I was thinking.  During all the time Arya spent in KL Nymeria was on her own and became (more) feral.  They've lost track of each other except during wolf dreams.  I know lots of readers hope they are reunited before the end.

I know this is sort of lame, but this is one of the "Stark" reunions I most crave.  I want Arya and Nymeria together again.

 

And it is hard to know how bonded the wolves are to the Starks.  We get references that Rob and Greywind fight almost as one (which is why I felt it was implied that he could warg even though I don't think it's ever outright stated).  Then I believe Jojen described ShaggyDog in such a way that you feel like he's describing Rickon (angry and full of fear).  But it always seemed to me that the two that were most of the "same mind" where Ghost and Jon. 

 

I will admit that this connection between the Starks and their wolves fascinates me and I want to see it explored more.  I guess that's part of why I'm so disappointed that it's been dropped from the show - because that means I have to wait for Martin to give me more and lord knows when THAT will happen lol.

Edited September 14, 2015 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

It's cool to see I'm not the only one noting, it Autarch, if we're wrong, at least we have company in each other :-) 

 

 

 

(May I ask how old Oscar was when you found him?)

 

Well they have to guess, Lady S, by his teeth, but he was believed to be somewhere in between 2-3 when he was found last November and when I recently took him in to have his ears checked out (he had an ear infection) my vet thought he could actually be between 3-5 judging by his teeth.  So he was full grown and then some.  He was pretty traumatized too, but the animal control officer just loved him so much, he kept him well beyond the mandatory 5 days, rather than putting him down.  So no one really knows, he has a bit of the Great Pyrenees and Plott hound jowls thing going on, so chewing can be hard for him.  We brush his teeth now so maybe he'll start aging backwards for his next checkup ;-)  

 

But you and Holmbo  and Haleth raise fair points.  It's hard to say if the link is truly a link between the animal and the Stark child or because they all have this latent magical ability to some extent, the link is more about magical affinity than heartfelt affection.   The link could be less affection and more ....hocus-pocus, I suppose.  

Edited September 14, 2015 by stillshimpy

[mac123x]

I think we are still waiting for Olenna to say something non-insulting about anyone ever that is not herself or Willas. Her popularity in fandom while understandable still annoys me greatly.

 

This is one of the areas that the show improved, I think.  Olenna in the books is pretty unpleasant, but Diana Rigg's performance gave her a little more humanity.  In the book, she's basically interrogating Sansa about Joffrey's character.  She did the same thing on the show, but her tone of voice and body language came across as more sympathetic.

[Lavignac]

Re: Nymeria and whether she "abandoned" Arya:

I don't want to spoil Shimpy because I don't remember when it's mentioned, but It will be interesting to note who has the most to complain about the attacks from Nymeria's pack. I believe even though they don't meet, some kind of loyalty is still present in the wolf. Is it from past companionship? Is it from renewed psychic links through dreams? In any case, to me it's linked with how both Grey Wind and Ghost are agitated in the presence of people clearly OR secretly dangerous/hateful to their owner

[John Potts]

stillshimpy Here's how Cersei felt about me throwing Bran out of of window: She was displeased

 

 

Actually, this is one of the things that made me go "Bitch, please, what could he do?" if you make the clearly unreasonable assumption that not sleeping with your sister wasn't an option, Jamie did exactly the "right" thing: it was a "Him or us" situation and Jamie acted. He couldn't intimidate Bran into silence because no threat will silence him permanently; couldn't stab him because you'd think even without CSIs in Winterfell they'd notice Bran was stabbed before he fell! I guess he could have bashed his head in prior to pushing him out the window, but most people would reckon the fall would kill him.

 

stillshimpy (we had a DNA test performed, he's part GP and part Plott Hound)

 

 

OK, this is completely OT, but I read that as "Part Doctor* and part Plot Hound" - he diagnoses AND can spot plot twists - he's Oscar the superdog!

 

* GP = General Practitioner, in the UK at least

[stillshimpy]

OK, this is completely OT, but I read that as "Part Doctor* and part Plot Hound" - he diagnoses AND can spot plot twists - he's Oscar the superdog!

 

"Dr. Oscar will see you soon.  Please fill out this form.  He specializes in curing anxiety, depression, dysphoria, malaise and an over-attachment to clean floors."  

 

Hehe, yeah, Great Pyrenees and Plott Hound which Plott Hound has only been a recognized breed since 2006. It's basically a form of bloohound/coonhound bred to hunt -- I kid you not --- boar and bear.  I'm assuming someone got him thinking he'd be the biggest badass dog around and instead he wants to snuggle everyone he ever meets.  

 

about the attacks from Nymeria's pack

 

So it is Nymeria?  Really?  Because part of what made me think it couldn't be was the talk of brother and sister.  Now, I fully admit that I refer to Oscar and Puddles as siblings, and frequently say things like, "Don't pee on your sister dog!"  ....but I didn't think an animal's mind would be quite as prone to goofiness as we are around here.  

 

if you make the clearly unreasonable assumption that not sleeping with your sister wasn't an option, Jamie did exactly the "right" thing: it was a "Him or us" situation and Jamie acted. He couldn't intimidate Bran into silence because no threat will silence him permanently; couldn't stab him because you'd think even without CSIs in Winterfell they'd notice Bran was stabbed before he fell! I guess he could have bashed his head in prior to pushing him out the window, but most people would reckon the fall would kill him.

 

Well and then, it really also seems as if Jaime and Cersei...because they are Jaime and Cersei and drank whatever crazy-laced-spiced-wine was bing passed around in King's Landing...thought Bran was actively spying on them.   I'm no fan of that moment and it turns out that , for whatever reason, the actor playing Jaime chose to play it very oddly, but that's a detail the show had since chosen to leave out.  

 

So I finally broke down and just started making notes on my Kindle, because things just got both odd and interesting.  

 

Just to completely beat the drum as much as it can before the Wedding Reception from Hell, presumably, Mance Raydar talks about the laws of hospitality and then adds my least favorite detail of the entire series so far....that shit about having snuck up to Winterfell to take Robert's measure.  Oh please spare me that kind of precious bullshit in a story where kids are slaughtered as props, as well as the "he was the one playing the lute" type of stuff.  Now, admittedly, history is stuffed with stories of noblemen or kings who allegedly liked to dress as the Jester or a minstrel and surprise people in a party they were meeting, but those tales are usually to be taken (as this tale would have me phrase it) "well salted".   

 

However, I'm wincing like mad, knowing that the story is going sooooo far out of its way to establish, "Rules that govern courtesy and having guests!"  ....presumably the better to sucker punch the shit out of the reading audience.  

 

Jorah openly put the moves on Dany and she didn't shut it down as much as one might assume she would.  I'm going to assume that's going nowhere fast.   I'm having a difficult time believing that Jorah doesn't recognize Barristan Themly, but I suppose it's possible.  

 

A nice touch in the story, that the series didn't really touch upon, was that because Loras fought in Renly's armor (which is a cute touch to help indicate their relationship, but unless they were the same height -- and they weren't -- it wouldn't happen armor was not one-size-fits-all) Renly's former bannermen returned to him during the Blackwater.  

 

Other things I discovered with no small amount of alarm:  Melisandre cannot burn?  There's a passage in Davos chapter that indicates she goes down into the caves with Stannis and then goes further down, into areas where only she can go and remain unburned.  Davos thinking he was sent by The Mother to kill Melisandre was a neat touch and I appreciate it, I did notice that Davos was hallucinating his butt off on that rock, but didn't really put much stock into it.  

 

Saan is another character that got next to no development in the story, but is actually kind of neat and a genuinely good friend to Davos.  Although, I'm assuming he reported the whole "he's going to kill Melisandre, but he's so sick, he's not in his right mind" to someone at Dragonstone to help save Davos, vs. betray him.   One cool fantasy touch in there was that Davos assumes Melisandre can be killed by cold iron, because that's something often reserved for the Fae in fantasy stories.  I know they didn't actually go there, but since Melisandre actually is more reminiscent of faeries than of wtiches (ridiculously beautiful woman with magical powers)  , I liked that touch. 

 

There's poor Edric Storm, playing with Shireen.  Being thoroughly decent.  Almost certainly about to be BBQ in the name of Stannis's cause.  Argh.  

 

Also, Patches sings about the Red Wedding?  Fool's Blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom , aye aye aye.

 

Just as a side note, I've never bothered to use the note feature on my Kindle before and think it is ridiculously cool.  

[Protar]

Other than the Mance visiting Winterfell detail (which I actually quite liked - despite a lot of the brutal stuff that goes down in Westeros, Martin also romanticises and fairy-tale-ises quite a lot of things and I think it creates a unique tone), what did you think of Jon's introduction to Mance, Shimpy? I know a lot of people, myself included, were pretty disappointed that Mance's story about the cloak was left out of the show.

[nksarmi]

As enjoyable as the actor was who played Mance on the show - I don't think they gave him enough to do.  Mance in the books is so intriguing and I think he makes a real impression on Jon rather Jon ever realized it or not.  It's actually interesting the men who have influenced Jon other than Ned - I would say that Mormount, Tyrion, and Mance all made significant impressions on the boy - what a combination of men to pull from as you are going from boy to man yourself.

 

I think shimpy is nearing some fun reveals. 

[Haleth]

Ciaran Hinds was totally wasted on show Mance, who I think is one of the most fascinated characters in the story.

[Protar]

Talented as Hinds is, I think he was just completely miscast. Mance isn't supposed to be this generic stoic leader guy, he's got a lot of charm and charisma. And I just don't think that's really Hind's shtick. He is good at playing stoic leader guys but Mance is not that. Plus they cast like a decade too old. Just in general they made the wildlings very generic and boring, all dour and dull and taciturn. 

[Delta1212]

Talented as Hinds is, I think he was just completely miscast. Mance isn't supposed to be this generic stoic leader guy, he's got a lot of charm and charisma. And I just don't think that's really Hind's shtick. He is good at playing stoic leader guys but Mance is not that. Plus they cast like a decade too old. Just in general they made the wildlings very generic and boring, all dour and dull and taciturn.

Originally, they asked Dominic West (McNulty for The Wire fans) but he turned it down, partially out of concern for how long he'd have to be away from his family. (Although there is apparently a possibility that he misunderstood exactly how long that would be).

I think he fits the book Mance a little more closely.