Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, you know there's actual reading comprehension reason behind that.  If you see a word that begins with and ends with the letters of a known word, part of what your brain does -- unless you are dyslexic -- is to fill in the word automatically.  That's part of the reason I rarely bother to correct anyone, because they literally think they see the word shrimpy.  

 

Anyway, I'm reading now, Haleth.  Just taking a moment to note Tyrin saying to Shae "The man who kills his own blood is cursed forever in the sight of gods and men" and had a twinge of pity for Stannis. So there's an in-world reason why he's sort of losing it over the manner in which he killed Renly.  

 

Admittedly, with all the inter-marriage, you'd barely be able to kill anyone in that land without running afoul of that one. 

[Delta1212]

Well, that was sort of the point of all the intermarriage.

Hey, maybe that's why the White Walkers show up now. The combination of widespread intermarriage and the constant fighting means half the content has killed distant relatives of one sort or another, so the gods are just like "Screw it, kill 'em all."

Edited August 18, 2015 by Delta1212

[Seerow]

Admittedly, with all the inter-marriage, you'd barely be able to kill anyone in that land without running afoul of that one.

 

As Delta points out, the intermarriage is all about solidifying alliances. Part of those alliances is not wanting the other guy to kill you or your family. Having some supernatural curse (whether real or just widely believed in) in retaliation for breaking that alliance is a pretty solid motivator for maintaining it.

 

But that said, I never took it to mean anything beyond immediate family. Siblings, parents, your parents siblings and their offspring... once you get much beyond that the link is pretty watered down to the point most people wouldn't blink at someone related that distantly marrying (at least within this setting), so I find it hard to imagine killing them making you a Kinslayer. I mean, the Karstarks are supposedly distantly related to the Starks, does Rob beheading Karstark in the show make him a kinslayer? I would say no. On the other hand, the payback he got for that was pretty rough so you never know.

[stillshimpy]

Sadly it appears that I needed to use the [/that was a joke, guys] font on that observation :-) 

 

As Delta points out, the intermarriage is all about solidifying alliances.

 

Indeed,  I am aware of that.  Just as sending second sons off to foster at a different lords holdfast helped guarantee the good behavior of all concerned, when it came to the lands of the other.  

 

Truly, I got that it meant "In your direct family" .   

Edited August 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Well, I couldn't very well run with a "Snowpocalypse 300 AL!" joke if I didn't play your comment straight, now could I?

Edited August 18, 2015 by Delta1212

[Protar]

Yeah, you know there's actual reading comprehension reason behind that.  If you see a word that begins with and ends with the letters of a known word, part of what your brain does -- unless you are dyslexic -- is to fill in the word automatically.  That's part of the reason I rarely bother to correct anyone, because they literally think they see the word shrimpy.

 

What is the story behind your username by the way?

[John Potts]

stillshimpy Truly, I got that it meant "In your direct family"

 

 

Yeah I never really got the "Kin" relationship

and later Kinslaying

between the Starks and Karstarks. By the time you've established yourself in a separate castle, you're pretty much a different family. Nobody calls Robert a kinslayer for offing Rhaegar, though we know the Baratheons are a Targaryen offshoot (and far more recently than the Stark/Karstark split, I think). It'd be like (switching fandoms briefly) calling the marriage between Aragorn & Arwen incestuous because her father (Elrond) was the brother of his about fifty times Great Grandfather (Elros)!

[Holmbo]

Yeah, you know there's actual reading comprehension reason behind that.  If you see a word that begins with and ends with the letters of a known word, part of what your brain does -- unless you are dyslexic -- is to fill in the word automatically.  That's part of the reason I rarely bother to correct anyone, because they literally think they see the word shrimpy.  

Reading this series I had that problem with Tyrion and Tywin, at least at the start. I'd read Tywin's name and be like Ty---n = Tyrion.

Good thing Jaime was a break in that tradition. If he too had a Ty--n name I might have given up. Or at least had even less of a clue on my first read.

[Protar]

Tymie, Tyrsei, Tyffrey, Tymmen, Tyrcella. I think it could have worked. 

[Ser Cricket]

First post!

 

Full disclosure:  I'm a massive ASOIAF fan, read all the books, all the commentary, bit obsessed. Also watched all of GoT, and was thoroughly horrified by some occurrings in S5.

 

I also read the Unsullied thread on here and in its previous location - a very fascinating and impressive undertaking.

 

I'm also a big Stannis fan - not one of the scary ones.  I tend to merge ASOIAF and GoT Stannis's together, because Stephen Dillane is so awesome.

 

This:

 

 

Stannis views whether or not he was given Storm's End as a personal judgment and it isn't necessarily.  It makes sense for Robert, the actual heir and King, to grant the holding to who he chooses.  I also understand that Stannis didn't like the back-of-beyond Dragonstone, but it sounds cooler than hell and the people there wouldn't have the same "Thanks, four people in my family withered away in front of me, m'lord" associations.  

 

 

intrigued me.

 

The allocation of Dragonstone and Storm's End is often discussed on Westeros.org.  I'm not sure if this is spoilery for where you are in your read, shimpy, or if it's something readers of all the novellas, books and analysis picked up on, but I'll hide it anyway: 

wasn't Dragonstone given to the heir to the throne?  So giving the seat to Stannis, at least until Joffrey came of age, was actually Robert showing a lot of faith in his younger brother, and rewarding his tenacity and martial expertise.  Didn't Stannis also hunt down the last of the Targaryen loyalists on Dragonstone, something Renly could never do.  Stannis might have seen it as an insult, but Robert was never vindictive and rewarded loyalty very generously. 

Stannis' bitterness and the lack of communication between the brothers resulted in an unfortunate misunderstanding.

 

 

 

[Delta1212]

Reading this series I had that problem with Tyrion and Tywin, at least at the start. I'd read Tywin's name and be like Ty---n = Tyrion.

Good thing Jaime was a break in that tradition. If he too had a Ty--n name I might have given up. Or at least had even less of a clue on my first read.

And this is also the reason I spent the first book thinking Theon Greyjoy and The Greatjon were the same person.

My brain just saw The~ Gre~~jo~

[Haleth]

Welcome, Ser Cricket!

 

Ha!  If anyone has trouble keeping characters with similar sounding names sorted out, do not attempt The Silmarillion.

[Ser Cricket]

Thanks!

 

(LOVE The Silmarillion)

[Eegah]

Martin has recalled in one interview that one of his first lessons in writing class was to give each character a different first letter in their name so they'd be easy to remember. His response: "What if you have more than 26 chatacters?" That explains a lot right there.

[nksarmi]

Regarding the kinslaying thing - I actually shake my head at this over and over again in the books and the show.  I mean if Rheagar had deposed his dad - the Mad King - would that have really been an act worthy of being cursed?  If a child eventually rises up against a physically or sexually abuser relative and ends up killing them - is that worthy of being cursed?  Sometimes GRRM world rules just seem so odd to me.

[stillshimpy]

Also the reason I wanted to jump off a bridge to escape Proust.  Instead I just stopped reading and took up the "I gave the hell up on Proust" banner, which a cutout of me, dumping out an industrial size bottle of Advil and mysteriously flipping the bird to a stack of books.   It's a very confusing banner.  However, hardly anyone ever tries to battle me, so there's that.  

 

 

 

What is the story behind your username by the way?

 

It's actually quite boring.  People want it to involve a caper or at least some mild hijinks, but no.  It comes from testing a chat room many, many moons ago and people were fleeing in droves because we all had our real usernames and just happened to be all the mods for that board.  So someone realized, "okay, no one is ever going to talk to us if they think they've just walked into a firing squad" change everyone's names.  I said, "Make mine something Impish, I'm feeling impish today."  

 

And there you go.  I kept the name on other boards.

 

Welcome, Ser Cricket.

 

Oh lords, I'm through the chapter when Theon takes Winterfell and felt utterly horrified when he freed Reek/Ramsay, but didn't feel quite as bad as I thought I would since he was allowing the Iron Islanders to beat poor Hodor.  Really, if Theon hadn't ended up whittled away and tortured in a manner no living creature should ever encounter, I'd still be very much on team Fuck That Guy when it comes to Theon.  Ugh.  Bullying small children, frightening the elderly and allowing the developmentally disabled to be flogged.   Yeah, no one is going to find you "as good a master as Ned Stark" there Theon.   Sorry, but nothing about "but that was Bran's POV" changes any of the "he let his men beat a mentally challenged individual for giggles."  

 

I can understand already why Martin said that the actor playing Osha was the only person to cause him to see a character in a new way.  In the book, when she gets a hold of a spear, it isn't in any clear "Wow, I bet she'll save the day for those little kids" whereas in the series, the actor actually did some nice, subtle work where she looks directly at Bran and you can actually pick up/hope that "....oh thank god, she's up to something...but what....?"  and then again, in the series it's just far more obvious that Osha has a pretty active internal dialogue of her own...and that added scene where Luwin has to tell Theon that he doesn't get to rape Osha just because she's their prisoner/guest also adds the layer that gives some relief.  

 

Which the book could have done with a little hope in that chapter, to be completely honest about it.  Even if someone is a huge Theon fan, it would be challenging to be all "Yeah, that's the man, Theon!" when he's terrorizing old women, allowing mentally delayed men to be beaten bloody and having crippled boys dumped onto stone floors.  Damn, I'm really glad I know what happens to him, or else I'd have gone to bed hoping that Melisandre demanded him as a sacrifice.  

 

In fact, what a depressing series of chapters that was to read before bed.  Yipes.  When the only thing that makes it slightly better is "Oh good, at least I know Osha is actually trying to help the boys....and boy, is Theon ever going to regret letting Reek out of that dungeon..."  By the way, my only moment, I will wager ever , of thinking..."Yay....Ramsay...? Wait, no...no one could ever....and Hodor is crying and talking through cracked and bloodied lips?  Yeah, for the moment I'm all team, Karma for Theon...just not that much karma...damn.  No one deserves that much....that's not even really karma."  So I went to bed in quite the moral quandary last night, brought on by my foreknowledge of what is to come.  

 

Roose Bolton has natural born sons?  Is that true?  Don't answer me, please, he's anticipating his natural born sons?  I know Bolton is already married to a Frey girl so, I guess he could already have them.  I sort of hope he doesn't, because that just means Ramsay will almost certainly kill them.

 

Oh man, Edric Storm is eight years old?  Yeah, no wonder Cortnay Penrose wouldn't surrender Storm's End.  If Stannis ends up killing that kid, I might actually throw up.  I hope Catelyn guessed his real plan of presenting him as evidence that none of the alleged Baratheons are actual Baratheons, but I somehow doubt it.  Again, if harming an eight-year-old is Stannis' plan?  He's proving to me why Robert was right to try to limit his power.   

 

I doubt I would have liked Robert if I'd read the books first.  But Mark Addy made him a sympathetic character to me, with almost no relationship to Book Robert, who I admit, seemed mostly like a jackass with few, if any, redeeming characteristics.  Addy made Robert human.  Stannis just seems like a complete worm to me though.  He wouldn't tell his brother that he lacked true heirs, because the castle he was given wasn't the one he thought his due and then he wasn't made The Hand.  

 

Honestly, the only Baratheon I've come out of this entire caper liking much was Renly.  

 

On some of this stuff, I'm so glad I have foreknowledge -- and my god, what an alarming statement that is -- because it's really horrifying when Theon takes Winterfell.  

I'm also really surprised by what a  complete non-entity Robb Stark is at this point in the story.  We don't get any POV's with him.  There's just sort of "Robb did this, Robb did that, Robb said this to Catelyn" so what the hell?  Since I know the Red Wedding has to be a thing, since everyone in the world seemed to be anticipating it, I know he has to break his word to Frey and marry Talisa sort of soonish.  

 

It's clear that Jaime Lannister being let go is going to happen imminently (oh lord, Catelyn, so stupid...so, so stupid) and we're gearing up for the Blackwater, I feel like Talisa ought to be on the damned scene pretty damned soon.  What does he just appear with her all "Oh...and I married this woman, because all else is lost..." in a Catelyn POV?  Again, rhetorical questions, I'm just a little weirded out that parts of the narrative appear to be missing.  

 

I still can't believe how terrified I was by reading that Edric Storm is only eight or nine years old.  I'm really hoping that Davos stops or thwarts any nefarious plans.

 

Also, here's hoping that Martin eventually was scolded into doing a bit more research into his "to drive home the point of how brutal times of yore were, I have rape used quite casually and often..." because whereas on one level, I'm ....happy?...that Shae isn't going to end up as Sansa's maid and instead is going to be placed with Lolly, what Martin had happen to Lolly really is another area where he's using something to make a point and doesn't seem to understand what it would physically mean "Do you have any idea the physical trauma and damage that would result from what you're describing?  The likelihood that that poor young woman would be alive to need a maid is pretty much nil."   

Edited August 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Ser Cricket]

Thanks for the welcome, shimpy.

 

Ooh - you've got some fun to come yet :-)

 

Re Lollys - yeah, there are a couple of instances where Martin uses rape in what I consider a too casual a way.  This is one of them.  What happened to Lollys is horrific.  I have a sickening feeling it's only in the story to show what would have happened to Sansa had the Hound not been there.

 

It doesn't help that there are no POVs sympathetic to Lollys. It is not dealt with well by the author, and I can usually rationalise or understand most of the horrificness in the books But not this.  This was badly handled. 

[stillshimpy]

It doesn't help that there are no POVs sympathetic to Lollys. It is not dealt with well by the author, and I can usually rationalise or understand most of the horrificness in the books But not this.  This was badly handled.

 

Quoted for emphasis and truth.  Man, that was one instance where I want to kick him in the shins.  He has Tyrion being way too freaking casual about the whole thing too.  Like someone being raped by fifty men -- even if he's exaggerating -- is just one of those "....boy, the trials of city managements I, personally, must bear.  Poor me, Tryion.  Also, Lolly's an idiot anyway."  

 

It's particularly gross that he has Tyrion making plans to have Shae be this poor girl's maid because he's just so worried about Shae, but can't seem to figure out -- as he does for Tommen -- "Gee, maybe she'd be better off some place less likely to be under seige, I'll send her to Bravos for a bit, let her get some sun"....and he wants Shae within easy screwing distance.  

 

The whole thing is just one of the ickier treatments of women and it's somehow worse because it's all filtered through Tyrion, who treats it all with an utter lack of compassion for Lolly.  

Edited August 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

This might be a decent spot to point out that a lot of people think Tyrion's personality got a bit of a makeover on the show, and while the differences are far from major, some of his less desireable personality traits got toned down a little. Not that book Tyrion isn't just as popular as show Tyrion, but he can be a bit more callous, a tad bit more self-centered, and there's an argument to be made that he has a streak of internalized mysogyny going that gets played down a lot on the show.

Like I said, the differences aren't extreme. He's basically the same character. It can occasionally feel like it's the same character with a few of the edges sanded down, though.

[SeanC]

Lollys is clearly meant to be a commentary on the lack of regard for the mentally disabled, but I agree she's one of GRRM's least successful writing choices, just because of how little weight the narrative lends it (I mean, how little anybody cares is kind of the point, but it still comes across as too much of a casual aside).

[stillshimpy]

This might be a decent spot to point out that a lot of people think Tyrion's personality got a bit of a makeover on the show, and while the differences are far from major, some of his less desireable personality traits got toned down a little.

 

I'd already noticed that, kind of lot a lot, actually.   Particularly a ton of the things he thinks towards Catelyn, etc.  

 

Show Tyrion is just ...a sweeter human being....whereas book Tyrion does have a callous streak and a few problems with women.  That little detail about how Tywin "made" Tyrion have sex with his sham-wife after...etc.  how his mind said no, but his blah blah blah.  Ew.  

 

Not one of Martin's better showings throughout.  

[Holmbo]

Regarding the kinslaying thing - I actually shake my head at this over and over again in the books and the show.  I mean if Rheagar had deposed his dad - the Mad King - would that have really been an act worthy of being cursed?  If a child eventually rises up against a physically or sexually abuser relative and ends up killing them - is that worthy of being cursed?  Sometimes GRRM world rules just seem so odd to me.

Agree, there do seem to be a lot of mitigating circumstances to the rules. I think that's sort of the point though. You have this society were power is hereditary to prevent constant fighting for the leadership. The whole social order of their society depends on people respecting the laws of inheritance and trusting others to do the same. Family members have to be able to trust each other that no one will kill someone else to eliminate competition or inherit the leadership role. So they have all this social shunning of people who do so, the kinslayers. But then comes all the what ifs. What if your relative is abusive, a psychopath in a position of power, has taken up arms against you? This is what I think GRRM is exploring in his story.

[Eegah]

Martin has said that he probably should have had Robb chapters starting at least in book 2 if not 1, so we could truly feel the full impact of the Red Wedding.

Don't forget Tyrion threatening to kill Tommen if Cersei doesn't let Myrcella go to Dorne. Even if even the book version would clearly never do it, it's really not something I can see the show version saying.

As for some other statements in this update, all I can say is, mine is an evil laugh.

[Haleth]

About Lollys, it really is disturbing how much disdain Martin has for her, considering his affection for his other "bastards and broken things." (Jon and Tyrion can be such self pitying jerks at times. I love it when someone reminds them they grew up with all advantages.). Poor Lollys cannot comprehend what has happened to her. I imagine her as having Downs Syndrone. No one has a kind thought for her, no sympathy, not even Sansa. Having her assaulted that way is piling on. (No pun intended.)

[Protar]

I think Lollys is there to hold a mirror up to some of the other characters. Tyrion claims he has a soft spot for cripples, batards and broken things and yet in reality he shows very little compassion to Lollys. Seemingly because he was just bitter at Lollys' mum trying to match the two of them up and took his frustration out on her. But yes, what happened to Lollys is probably the least sensitive and most innacurate portrayal of rape in the series especially given that

She gets pregnant from the rape. Usually in such a situation there would be no way that a woman's reproductive organs would all be intact after that.

 

Tyrion is really a dick in the books. Still my favourite character, but precisely because he's such a complex and grey character. I think it's a shame that the show just completely shied away from having him as an anti-hero. Peter Dinklage would have nailed the role. And it's not like anti-heroic protagonists haven't been successful in the past i.e Breaking Bad, House of Cards, Sopranos etc.

About Lollys, it really is disturbing how much disdain Martin has for her, considering his affection for his other "bastards and broken things." (Jon and Tyrion can be such self pitying jerks at times. I love it when someone reminds them they grew up with all advantages.). Poor Lollys cannot comprehend what has happened to her. I imagine her as having Downs Syndrone. No one has a kind thought for her, no sympathy, not even Sansa. Having her assaulted that way is piling on. (No pun intended.)

 

I'm pretty sure Sansa shows her sympathy. When all the women are retreating into Maegor's and Lollys is freaking out, Sansa is the one who stops to comfort her. Again, it's about showing us more of these characters and how compassionate they truly are. Sansa passes the test, Shae and Tyrion do not. I don't think it's Martin who has disdain for her, just the other characters.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Protar

[Ser Cricket]

Martin has said that he probably should have had Robb chapters starting at least in book 2 if not 1, so we could truly feel the full impact of the Red Wedding.

 

The only time I wanted a Robb POV was to see if he can warg, and to get more of an insight of his and Grey Wind's tragic relationship.

 

Otherwise I like

that Queens get POVs but Kings don't

Edited August 19, 2015 by Ser Cricket

[nksarmi]

I'd already noticed that, kind of lot a lot, actually.   Particularly a ton of the things he thinks towards Catelyn, etc.  

 

Show Tyrion is just ...a sweeter human being....whereas book Tyrion does have a callous streak and a few problems with women.  That little detail about how Tywin "made" Tyrion have sex with his sham-wife after...etc.  how his mind said no, but his blah blah blah.  Ew.  

 

Not one of Martin's better showings throughout.  

I couldn't remember if you would have gotten to that point yet, but yeah, Tywin scarred the hell out of Tyrion when he was young I think and it definitely stays with him by the time we read about him in the books.  Tyrion of the show is almost right on par with Jon for being hero potential.  He is much more flawed in the books, but still very interesting.

 

ETA: I agree with Protar that Peter D could have nailed the anti-hero role, but I am guessing the D&D decided that the story needed more flat out "good" guys in this story.  I think without the internal monologues, almost all of the characters seem less complex on the show than they do in the books. But I really think they just wanted Tyrion to be someone that most of the audience would cheer for so they "cleaned" him up a bit.

Edited August 18, 2015 by nksarmi

[Haleth]

I still think Book Tyrion is a good guy regardless of occasional whininess and dark thoughts.  You can't blame a guy for ugliness during an internal monologue; they aren't things he would really consider doing. Despite his self loathing Tyrion is someone who (as an adult) stands up pretty consistently for those who have no power (Lollys excepted) and as the story progresses his conscience doesn't let him ignore blatant acts of cruelty.

[Protar]

ETA: I agree with Protar that Peter D could have nailed the anti-hero role, but I am guessing the D&D decided that the story needed more flat out "good" guys in this story.  I think without the internal monologues, almost all of the characters seem less complex on the show than they do in the books. But I really think they just wanted Tyrion to be someone that most of the audience would cheer for so they "cleaned" him up a bit.

 

More than a bit I'd say. Book purists don't call him Saint Tyrion on the show for nothing :P (we have nicknames for a lot of characters). I just think it's really bizarre how they sold the show on the morally ambiguous characters but made all the characters more conventional basically. And I don't get why because audiences love anti-heroes. I just don't think that D+D are very bold or adventurous writers, which I think was necessary for this adaptation. And then I get really frustrated because D+D still get loads of praise, even though they just took Martin's characters and didn't quite manage to strip away all the depth! Grrr 

[nksarmi]

Well I think for them to truly pain Tyrion properly, they really would have had to delve into how much of a bastard Tywin really was and I think they toned him down a lot on the show.  The grandfather act they had him pull with Ayra in disguise points to that in my opinion (and as enjoyable as some of those scenes were, I too cannot believe he didn't wonder WHO she really was, though I don't think he knew Ayra Stark was missing at the time).

 

So it seems to me that they shifted Tywin from black to grey and Tyrion from grey to white.  To give Tyrion his proper amount of complexity, I think they would have had to keep Tywin more in the black hat category.  Because in truth, all of Tywin's kids are pretty messed up.  Tyrion manages to come out of Casterly Rock with a moral compass that doesn't always point North (though it does a lot of the time), but Cersei and Jamie are using Jack Sparrow's moral compass, one that doesn't point North at all - but only to what they want most.

 

Not for shimpy:

I think the toning down of Tywin made his eventually death far less enjoyable on the show. It almost seemed anti-climatic when it happened. But in the books, I think I might have stopped reading and celebrated for awhile. Of course, I really think that part of putting the white hate on Tyrion and skipping over his self-loathing for season five was either knowing that they could use him to make people care more about Dany and/or using him to soften the blow of Jon's death.

[John Potts]

Gotta agree that the Tywin/Arya scenes make little character sense: while I think both characters are great (Love Arya: can't help but admire Tywin's Magnificent Bastardry), you don't go "Ah yes, young girl I've already pegged as a Northern Lord's daughter, please attend me in discussions where I plot to destroy the Northern Rebellion!" And I can sort of see that Arya might look a bit like Cersei at a similar age: while Cersei is way crueller, they're both rebellious little girls who chafe at the restrictive roles women are forced into. 

[chandraReborn]

One thing to pay attention to while reading Tyrion--how he views other people's perceptions of him vs. reality. The way I see him, his disability has exposed him to  a lot of prejudice, which has really shaped his life. But he also, I think, believes every negative thing people say or think about him is colored by his disability, and this can make him blind to criticism--if someone doesn't approve of X, it's because he's a dwarf, not because X is wrong. 

[ambi76]

And doesn't that remind us of Cersei (with her it's the "because woman" complex)? I always find it funny how much more alike Cersei and Tyrion are in many character traits, than the much harped on Cersei and Jaime (their similarities are only of the very superficial kind).

Edited August 19, 2015 by ambi76

[Delta1212]

And doesn't that remind us of Cersei (with her it's the "because woman" complex)? I always find it funny how much more alike Cersei and Tyrion are in many character traits, than the much harped on Cersei and Jaime (their similarities are only of the very superficial kind).

The major difference being that Tyrion is actually as smart as Cersei thinks she is (though not, perhaps, quite as smart as he himself thinks he is).

That and Cersei lacking completely any empathy or concern for anyone that isn't herself or that she views as an extension of herself.

[Lady S.]

.  Just taking a moment to note Tyrin saying to Shae "The man who kills his own blood is cursed forever in the sight of gods and men" and had a twinge of pity for Stannis. So there's an in-world reason why he's sort of losing it over the manner in which he killed Renly.  

I guess it's a good thing Stannis switched to a different religion with only one god then, though he had already given up on the Seven. But there is still the problem of the sight of men, probably part of the reason he can't even admit his guilt to Davos.

 

Regarding the kinslaying thing - I actually shake my head at this over and over again in the books and the show.  I mean if Rheagar had deposed his dad - the Mad King - would that have really been an act worthy of being cursed?  If a child eventually rises up against a physically or sexually abuser relative and ends up killing them - is that worthy of being cursed?  Sometimes GRRM world rules just seem so odd to me.

Westeros isn't too concerned with child abuse, if you hadn't noticed.

I don't think the gods really care about kinslaying anyway, since quadruple-kinslayer Bloodraven has basically become one of the old gods.

 

Don't forget Tyrion threatening to kill Tommen if Cersei doesn't let Myrcella go to Dorne. Even if even the book version would clearly never do it, it's really not something I can see the show version saying.

 

That didn't happen over Myrcella's betrothal.  

 

The major difference being that Tyrion is actually as smart as Cersei thinks she is (though not, perhaps, quite as smart as he himself thinks he is).

That and Cersei lacking completely any empathy or concern for anyone that isn't herself or that she views as an extension of herself.

That, and I don't think the prejudice Tyrion faces is really quite comparable to the sexism Cersei faces, it's apples and oranges. Their society is grossly sexist, but it's something all women deal with, and some, like poor Lady Hornwood, suffer under much worse circumstances than Cersei does. But Tyrion as a dwarf and a nobleman (as opposed to working as a jester or performer) is in more of a unique position in the nobility. People judge Cersei the way they judge all women, but their stares at Tyrion and prejudice against him do more to set him apart from his class, while experience with sexism is something Cersei shares with her class. And within their own family, Tywin abused Tyrion the most. He treated Cersei's body as a commodity and that's gross enough, but he never wished her dead or spewed dehumanizing ugliness about her body and her birth.

 

It's no wonder Tyrion can never forget he's a dwarf, but I don't think we can really dismiss that fact either in discussing him. He has a habit of reducing people's thoughts on him to the dwarfism, but even when they have legitimate and valid concerns/complaints, it doesn't mean they look past his dwarfism and seeing him as they would an able-bodied man. That's just a fact of being human, even in our society, even moreso in their fucked-up one. What I'm getting at is there are plenty of dark, morally ambiguous protagonists on television, but all of them are able-bodied men, aren't they? (Or an able-bodied actor working with a cane in the case in House.) Would a dwarf on the level of Don Draper or Walter White be such a popular character? I can understand D&D thinking they needed to "whitewash" Tyrion for the masses as they did with pretty much every other character. Problem for me is, they've done so much to make him fun and relate-able that they've taken away showing his outcast status as a dwarf and the themes of moral/psychological struggle for the cripples and outcasts. Surely, they could have toned down some of Tyrion's unsavory choices without reducing him to some weird lovechild of Ned Stark and Oberyn Martell.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Lady S.

[magdalene]

 

.  Just taking a moment to note Tyrin saying to Shae "The man who kills his own blood is cursed forever in the sight of gods and men" and had a twinge of pity for Stannis. So there's an in-world reason why he's sort of losing it over the manner in which he killed Renly.

I find Tyrion's remark rather darkly ironic all things considering.

[Haleth]

Did you ever go to a surprise party and you're hiding behind the couch, waiting and waiting?  And you keep peeking out the window to see if the surprisee has pulled up to the curb yet?  And you can't wait to jump out and yell, "SURPRISE!"?

 Yeah.  That.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Haleth

[Delta1212]

*snert*

[stillshimpy]

Oooookay.  So I've read the Dany chapter you had to have been talking about, Haleth.  Dany in the House of the Undying.   In one of the rooms, I guess she sees the Red Wedding?  I don't know who the woman with the rat-men is supposed to be, but the rooms are not just showing the future, so maybe that was Rhaegar's wife, and Oberyn's sister?  Rats make me think of Stannis, because of Storm's End.  Dwarfs would seemingly be something about Tyrion, but the pink hands thing?  No clue.   

 

At least I guess Martin had decided how poor Robb was going to meet his end by this book.  I'm not sure who the naked woman was, or if the Targaryen King talking about naming a baby Aegon, and how he was the promised prince, and his song was the Song of Ice and Fire, but that's supposed to have been Rhaegar, right?  Only, his dead son was named Ageon, right?   And there was supposed to be a third because the dragon has three heads.   All righty then?  

 

So either he had three children and the third is supposed to be Jon.  Or since a dragon is supposed to have three heads, Rhaegar, Viserys and then Dany would be the three heads of Aerys?  

 

What a trippy chapter.  She'll be betrayed once for blood, once for gold and once for love?  I'm assuming the blood one already happened with Drogo or Jorah spying on her (can't figure out how that was for blood though).  Xaxos (Ducksauce) betrays her for gold and the "for love" seems more likely Jorah's gig, but who the hell knows?  

 

I can see why they took a complete pass on trying to film pretty much any of that, and instead had Dany in Throne Room, in Winter, and then seeing Drogo and her son in some kind of "reality that can never be".    I liked that Drogon got her out of there sort of independently in the book's version, and the stuff that happens in the book is a lot more interesting, but it would have cost three seasons worth of budget to film.

 

Very, very trippy stuff.  

 

Particularly hot on the heels of finding out that Arya serves freaking Roose Bolton.  ARGH.   They traded having that happen for Arya encountering Tywin?  Again, it's only having any kind of foreknowledge that makes that darned near unbearable to know.  Poison him, Arya!! Stick one too many leeches on him.   He's going to know she's high born though, because she doesn't know to call him "My Lord", since she's never had to call anyone that.  

 

Dany in the Palace of Dust is about the only chapter I have been tempted to re-read almost immediately specifically because I do know more of what is to come in the story.   

 

One fun detail in there was when the faux banquet of beautiful, vibrantly alive kings and queens offered her food:  Anyone who has ever read anything from the fantasy genre had to have had the same reaction: "NO! Don't eat food from the faeries or any other magical beings, you'll be trapped!"  

 

It kind of cracked me up, because again, my reaction to that chapter as being full of hints of what is to come, as well as glimpses into what has happened, has almost everything to do with already knowing how Robb Stark dies...yet I still had a vaguely panicked reaction to the offer of food in the Palace of Dust.   As if I thought there was a chance that Dany would eat or drink something and end up trapped.   

Edited August 22, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

The House of the Undying may be the fandom's single most analyzed chapter in the entire series. There is a lot going on and a lot of theories about what each segment represents and how they related to events past, present and future.

I kind of agree with you about the book to show versions, but you better believe a lot of long time fans were screaming bloody murder about it.

I started the books before the show aired, but I didn't really go on the message boards at all until sometime early in the first season, so I think my emotional attachment wasn't quite as strong, and I mostly remembered it as that weird chapter that didn't make much sense before I found the online fan community.

[SeanC]

I don't know who the woman with the rat-men is supposed to be, but the rooms are not just showing the future, so maybe that was Rhaegar's wife, and Oberyn's sister?  Rats make me think of Stannis, because of Storm's End.  Dwarfs would seemingly be something about Tyrion, but the pink hands thing?  No clue.  

The general assumption is that the woman is Westeros and the four rat-men are the four kings waging war at the time Dany is in the House of the Undying.

Edited August 22, 2015 by SeanC

[John Potts]

SeanC The general assumption is that the woman is Westeros and the four rat-men are the four kings waging war

 

 

I think it's more likely that

they're a reference to Lord Manderley and his Frey pies

. But who knows*? Prophecies are tricksy things!

 

* Well, GRRM obviously!

Edited August 22, 2015 by John Potts

[nksarmi]

I posted something about the "Dragon has Three Heads" in a non-book thread once and was shocked - shocked I tell you - to learn that wasn't in the show.  I swear it's so much a part of what we have been trying to figure out for years (who were the three heads of the dragon and now we have three dragons, so who will ride them, etc.....) that I couldn't believe it wasn't actually in the show's episode of that material.

 

I can't remember all of Dany's experience in the House of the Undying - I should go back and reread it.  I've read a LOT of theories based on the contents of that chapter though. I think it's interesting to note that though the reason Rheagar decided to become a warrior was because he came to believe in the "prince that was promised" prophesy (which the show tells us by way of Ser Barrister's story), that in Dany's vision, it's his son he believes to be that prince.

Edited August 22, 2015 by nksarmi

[SeanC]

I think it's more likely that

they're a reference to Lord Manderley and his Frey pies

. 

How does that fit at all?

[Delta1212]

How does that fit at all?

Well, I suppose the rat connection? But otherwise, I agree that's kind of a big stretch.

[Hecate7]

Fun with a thread for former unsullied. A sullying thread.

The only time I was ever unsullied while watching the show was when watching the pilot. After that I read the books and really enjoyed comparing the show to them. I feel most of the time they enhance each other.

 

 

I was unsullied (but suspected of not), until after the episode in which Lady was killed.  I said something based on the fact that Lady was the only wolf I'd seen told to stay, and something I saw on the official HBO site that described her as the most docile and sweet of the wolves. From the first episode I have assumed that the connection between characters and their animals is very significant and gives us big hints about the plot. This was construed as proof that I'd read the books, and at that point I made it my business to become as sullied as possible.

 

After that, I noticed that certain lines in the show get stuck in your head as if the actors said them. There are several lines that in fact have never been said on the show, that my brain inserted into the appropriate scenes so seamlessly that I was 100% convinced the memory was from the show.

 

I say this because although there might be some who deliberately, maliciously run around spoiling, there are probably far more people who either 1) speculate far too well, or 2) don't realize it's a spoiler. Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

[Dev F]

I can see why they took a complete pass on trying to film pretty much any of that, and instead had Dany in Throne Room, in Winter, and then seeing Drogo and her son in some kind of "reality that can never be".    I liked that Drogon got her out of there sort of independently in the book's version, and the stuff that happens in the book is a lot more interesting, but it would have cost three seasons worth of budget to film.   

 

Also, they probably didn't want to include overly specific premonitions of future events, as it would lock them in to certain storylines from the book that they might ultimately decide to exclude. (For example, there's one image that most people think represents a particular character from book 5, whom at this point the show seems to have completely excised.)

 

Dany's Qarth storyline is my least favorite part of A Clash of Kings. It's one of the first places where GRRM starts to lean on his crutch of putting world-building ahead of storytelling: When you don't have something interesting for your characters to do, just have them wander somewhere and spend several pages describing the setting! I get the point of it all -- Dany realizing that royalty is more than making a good appearance and demanding that people follow you -- but certainly there was a better way to dramatize that than having her tromp from place to place looking for powerful friends until one of the prospects tries to kill her.

 

That's why I wasn't too upset when the series injected some actual incident into Dany's story, with her trip to the House of the Undying being preceded by the Qartheen coup and the theft of her dragons. But I was annoyed that the changes were made at the cost of presenting a plausible world, reducing the politics of an entire city to one heel-turning businessman with an idiotic plan (if you're amped to open up your city to outside trade, "Come to Qarth! We just murdered our entire Chamber of Commerce!" is perhaps not your strongest tack) and one spooky horror villain (seriously, could they not at least put some extras in blue lipstick so it looked like there were other warlocks in the city besides Pyat Pree?).

 

And while I understand the need to streamline the House of the Undying visions, I thought they pulled back so much that they ended up damaging the integrity of the story. The point of the visions in the book isn't just "Here's a preview of things to come!" It's about Dany realizing that she's got this great and terrible destiny that transcends the soft, empty pomp of royalty, and then fighting to keep that destiny from being ripped away from her. In the show, the visions are reduced to a trick the warlocks are using to keep her away from her dragons, and she has to reject them in order to find her children and call on them to save her. Which reduces her climactic revelation from "I'm powerful because the fates of nations and multitudes hang on my actions" to "I'm powerful because I have dragons." Which she already freaking knows.

 

Also, shimpy, did you notice that the final vision Dany receives is of the slaves of Yunkai rushing to greet her after she liberates the city, as dramatized in the final scene of season 3? It's a good example of one the showrunners' least endearing habits: to retain a big, memorable scene from the books, while stripping out all the context that makes the scene work. That encounter outside of Yunkai is supposed to be the moment when Dany realizes that the visions of the future were true, that she's on the path to everything mighty and terrifying the warlocks showed her. Without the earlier vision it becomes just a scene of "Hooray! Our white savior!" -- which the story could certainly have done without.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Dev F

[Avaleigh]

 After that, I noticed that certain lines in the show get stuck in your head as if the actors said them. There are several lines that in fact have never been said on the show, that my brain inserted into the appropriate scenes so seamlessly that I was 100% convinced the memory was from the show.

 

I say this because although there might be some who deliberately, maliciously run around spoiling, there are probably far more people who either 1) speculate far too well, or 2) don't realize it's a spoiler. Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has dealt with this. It's one of the reasons I was interested in doing a re-read so that I could try to keep the two as separate as possible.

[Haleth]

The general assumption is that the woman is Westeros and the four rat-men are the four kings waging war at the time Dany is in the House of the Undying.

I've wonderered why four and not five.  Was Renly already dead?  Or had Balon not declared?  Or was Joff not represented because he was already on the throne?

 

I reread this chapter periodically to remind myself about the prophesies and to see how they correlate with later events.  It's definitely worth revisiting at the end of each book.  (This and Mirri Maz Duur's at the end of GoT because they are often misquoted.)  I have to hand it to Martin in that so long ago he wrote a series of seemingly random images that will only make sense many books and many, many (too many) years later.  When I saw the show version I remember getting angry and wondering how they could possibly omit certain images that foretell events to come.  I guess it's true the show writers want to tell their own story, although I don't think leaving leaving some images unexplained would be a problem for viewers.  After all, prophesies are supposed to be esoteric or only one path, yadda, yadda.

[Holmbo]

For me the house off the undying is an example on how I think the book and show complement each other. Because rather than repeating the same foreshadowing the show ads additional ones. Dany in a destroyed throne room with snow, her going north of the wall. I think those visuals might turn out to be foreshadowing in some way.