Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Haleth]

At the risk of being scolded by Mya to stay on topic, here were the results of the game: My boy represented the Martells and came in second even though he had never played before. But alas, he was taken out by his allies, the Tyrells and Baratheons (curse them!), but then the Greyjoys swept in and won the game. You win or you die. It took 10 hours. And probably a few beers.

[GertrudeDR]

In regards to Dany's heat-resistance. The books do talk about how she likes hot baths, so the thing in the show was not entirely made-up, just exaggerated. I like to contrast this to Cat's description of Ned after their lovemaking and how he liked to stand naked in front of the open windows while Cat pulled up the furs around her. Nothing supernatural about either preference, it's just suggestive. I think both houses have some kind of extra magic in their blood that embodies Ice and Fire. Dany went through her ordeal by Fire, it's possible Jon will go through an ordeal of Ice (freezing his body in the ice cells before ultimately being resurrected).

[OhOkayWhat]

WSmith84 comment is interesting. It made me to think a few things:

 

-I agree, if you mention something that does not works well internally in the show and you use the books as comparison to show how it is made properly; to me, well, that is fair game. But also, this is only the first part the analysis...

 

-The second part is to ask ourselves: the book version of the event, does it fit the needs of the show? (different mediums, different needs)

 

- I think the Northern Plot is far from being complete in the show, I think if it was movie named The North, it is only reaching its first 1/3, and I think much more will come later.

Edited February 29, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[WSmith84]

WSmith84 comment is interesting. It made me to think a few things:

 

-I agree, if you mention something that does not works well internally in the show and you use the books as comparison to show how it is made properly; to me, well, that is fair game. But also, this is only the first part the analysis...

 

-The second part is to ask ourselves: the book version of the event, does it fit the needs of the show? (different mediums, different needs)

 

I agree with that. I don't think everything in the book should or could appear in the show, and that's fine.

 

- I think the Northern Plot is far from being complete in the show, I think if it was movie named The North, it is only reaching its first 1/3, and I think much more will come later.

 

My biggest problem is that it was built on such shakey ground that it doesn't matter how it proceeds afterwards. That Sansa, Roose and Littlefinger behaved the way they did just to get the plot to work is just appalling writing. And then there's the mess in Stannis' camp, with Ramsey and his 20 good men. And even if the Wall wasn't terrible, it just wasn't a patch on its source material which would have made for better television and storytelling. That's a big problem with the Northern plot in general: the source material was very adaptable and would have made great TV, the show simply didn't use it. It was the story I was most looking forward to before season 5. It wasn't a case of the book material not meeting the show's needs (it did) or the material being unadaptable (it was very adaptable) or the book material not making sense in the show (it would have done). It was just a poor decision by everyone in charge.

[Ashara Payne]

What's the betting that HBO will do a LOTR/ The Hobbit-style adaptation where they do a lengthy adaptation of D&E/The Rogue Prince/Princess and the Queen or even other histories from WOIAF which don't have the themes, mystery, character-development etc of ASOIAF?

I bought my daughter the GoT board-game for Xmas and our one attempt to play it ended prematurely as people got bored/tired/hungry. It's not for kids.

[OhOkayWhat]

WSmith84,

 

(season 5 spoilers)

 

I think I disagree. In my opinion, the way Littlefinger, Roose and Sansa behaved seems strange but actually made sense more or less within the internal logic (and the knowledge the characters have about each other) of the show. I agree Sansa behavior is harder to explain, because it needs we know what she thinks internally. Even Stannis behaves in a way related to his previous behavior, and here I mean ALL his previous behavior, not only a single scene. I agree the 20-good-men was a rushed way to advance the plot.

 

I think the showrunners decided to give us only the first part of the drama in season 5. This part is the drama that circles around the persons, it focuses on people, individual stories. That decision gives them and the average viewer the chance to focus in the wide drama (more casting needs, much more budget) that involves the Northern houses, next season.

 

Just think about it: someone provided a list of the screentime of each character in season 5. If that list is correct, I'm amazed they were able to include so much story in only 38 minutes of Sansa story, that is 8 minutes above the time a single episode of a sitcom (with its commercials, I must admit) has itself to develop a theme. Stannis? around 30 minutes, only 30 minutes. Such time constraints force the showrunners to move parts of the plot to future episodes. I think Northern story is still an ongoing story.

 

(Aaaand I still don't know how to quote here.....being a newbie has its disadvantages, I guess)

Edited February 29, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[GertrudeDR]

about season 5

 

I agree that the Northern storyline is probably coming, it will just look different than in the books. I do think Sansa's storyline suffered quite a bit because of it. It's a bit puzzling because they like to try and give a full arc to everyone in the course of a season, but Sansa was still a victim with only a thin veneer of agency. They really pushed Dark Sansa at the end of season 4, only to have her regress. I don't think sassing Miranda during her bath and being petulant with Ramsey counts. They even have her wash the dye out of her hair just as she slips back into being the victim - right back to the beginning. The way she talked to Ramsey reminded me of her being bratty to her Septa season 1.

 

If they even cast one Northern Lord to be prominent prior to or during the wedding that Sansa could have talked to and be seen trying to subtly woo to her side it would have gone a long way towards salvaging her arc and setting up next season. Even Sansa taking a more active role in talking to the servants instead of being approached by the older lady and getting a weak 'the North remembers'. In my mind they did botch it, and it wouldn't have taken that much to tweak it to make Sansa stronger.

 

My biggest complaint about Stannis is that Balon is still alive. So basically when she brings up the leeches and tells Stannis to trust her, he should have been thinking 'hmm. I am in a tight spot, but Mel is telling me I have a 66% chance of turning things around if I burn my daughter alive. I'm gonna need a gods damned daughter-back guarantee.' I know the show tried to show how desperate Stannis was, but they didn't do it very well and, I'm sorry, but BALON IS STILL ALIVE.

[WSmith84]

@ OhOkayWhat

 

Season 5

 

 

I'm sorry, but the decision to have Sansa marry Ramsey made no sense at all. Let's ignore that in S4 Lysa said that they had to wait for Tyrion to die before Sansa could wed but when plot demands it, she's available.

 

If Roose marries Sansa to Ramsey to appease the Northern Lords, then the Iron Throne will find out. Why would Roose, who just got out of a war that the North couldn't win, want to start a new one with the Iron Throne when he's not even going to have the guaranteed support of the Northerners? The North's about to be hit by winter; why would Roose want to alienate the people who could send him food and supplies? And if he tells no one, then what's the point to the marriage? Hell, why didn't he just agree to it, arrest Baelish and Sansa when they get there and get some tasty reward from the Iron Throne for capturing a traitor and King-killer?

 

Why does Sansa agree to it? For revenge. But what does that mean? Is she meant to murder them in their sleep? How can she get revenge with no allies, contacts or anything? Baelish gives her nothing to work with, and we're just expected to believe that Sansa is willing to put herself into that position with no semblance of a plan.

 

What about Littlefinger? Whether he cares about Sansa as a person or not is irrelevant, because he cares about her as a piece of the game. He's not going to give away the heir to the North away for no reason, nor put her in unreasonable danger when he doesn't need to. Putting her in Bolton hands (even though LF knows nothing of Ramsey's nature, which was confirmed by the showrunners) is needlessly risky, not to mention the risk of Roose simply arresting him and Sansa and handing them over to Cersei. Then there's the fact that Stannis is marching on Winterfell. So Winterfell is going to be besieged or made the centre of a battle, and Roose wants to put Sansa in that. Why doesn't he just wait until a victor emerges between the two, before committing to the marriage? It's idiotic. What does he get out of the marriage anyway? Permission from Cersei to invade the North and become Warden? Why doesn't he just lie and say that Ramsey married Sansa, without actually doing it? It's not like he had any proof to offer anyway, even when it actually happened. So what benefits does he gain from this marriage?

 

So, no, sorry, I think that the Northern plot was terribly written and there's nothing that can excuse it, definitely not time constraints or some such. The worst part though, is that Ramsey was the main character. Not Theon, not Sansa Poole, not even Roose (who's a thousand times more interesting than Ramsey). He had more screentime than any of them. He even got a scene with his girlfriend, for God's sake. I wanted to see Reek transform into Theon in Winterfell, culminating in him reclaiming his identity and saving somebody from a terrible fate. Instead I got the Ramsey Bolton show, and he's so clever he knows that it was the old lady who was helping Sansa, even though she never told that to Theon. And if the Northern lords turn up next season, all I'll be saying is 'Why weren't you at Sansa's wedding? Why didn't you object to her brutal treatment? Why didn't you take the opportunity that Stannis presented and rid yourselves of the Boltons? Where were you?' The show wasted the best source material Dance, and maybe all the books, had to offer.

 

Then there's Stannis. I don't even have the energy to go into this, but whoever wrote the 'Ramsey and his twenty good men' stuff needs firing.

 

Jon's stuff... well, it was alright. Had a nice battle sequence. But they made Jon such a clear-cut hero, with no bad choices or morally difficult actions. The Night's Watch were so obviously wrong. For a series that's supposed to be about moral greyness, and no clear good-guys, they sure do have a lot of black and white characters. Wasted source material, again. No Pink Letter? And f&^% Olly.

 

Also, how did Jon not hear of Sansa's wedding? The Wall apparently receives up-to-date news about the goings on in Meereen of all places, but not Winterfell. Sure. And King Stannis, of course, doesn't care about the Targaryen girl with three dragons, no no no. Nor about all the King's blood in Maester Aemon's veins.

 

 

Sorry, that was quite a long rant. But the Northern plot of season 5 was just appalling. If any single plot made me give up the show, it was that one.

Edited February 29, 2016 by WSmith84

[Chris24601]

My personal favorite is the significance of the name Winterfell. The idea being that a long time ago a pact was made between The Starks of Winterfell and agents of the old gods of the North (including the White Walkers) to preserve peace and balance. So long as there is always a Stark in Winterfell (presumably as the Lord) ... winter would always be kept at bay. In the books given that there is officially no Stark in Winterfell and the marriage of Ramsay to a fraudulent Arya Stark, thus passing control of Winterfell over to the Boltons, this contract has been broken. And perhaps not so coincidentally the storms of the North have only been getting progressively worse and worse since this event happened. And now the Long Night is coming and nothing can stop it until a Stark has been returned to the seat of Winterfell.

 

It would certainly coincide with GRRM's original plan to have the final battle happen at Winterfell.

By all the laws of a narrative universe the final conflict should still occur at Winterfell... its one of the oldest tropes in the book that you end your story as close to where it began as possible because it makes it easier for the audience to see how the protagonists have been changed by their experiences if you put them back into their previous surroundings and see how they respond differently (or not) to things they experienced before.

 

Now it could be that the final BATTLE will occur elsewhere, but the final resolution will occur at Winterfell. Personally, I've got a crackpot theory that we'll get a mirror of the beginning where instead of the King and his party visiting the North to drag its Lord away from his own, it will be the new King (Jon) and his party coming home to Winterfell.

[Terra Nova]

Season 5

the other problem is that in Petyr's mind Stannis is about to steamroll the Boltons anyway, since he couldn't envision the twenty good men commando, so the marriage will be a very short one anyway. What does Sansa gain from it? Not even enough time to engineer her revenge, whatever it could have been. If anything, she would have had to explain Stannis why she jumped in bed with her family's enemy, even if she survived the storming of Winterfell. No, they wanted their Sansa raped and went out of the way to make it happen. So she suffered King's Landing and the threat of rape only to be raped for real after four seasons. A victim all the time. But I guess now that she's been raped she will finally have enough motives to oppose the Boltons and become a truly empowered woman. She only needs to get rid of the possible baby first

Just for Shimpy to know, Arya's and Sansa's chapter from Winds were very passively-aggressively released before season 4 and 5, in the first case because the show borrowed part of a scene from it (and they liked it so much that they restaged it last season and will revisit it once more next season), in the latter to show what is in store for Sansa in the Vale.

[stillshimpy]

Welcome, OhOkayWhat there are a few of ways to quote people.  One is to use the dialogue shaped icon at the top of a post, and a quote box will appear.   Highlight text you want to quote, copy, hit that button, there's your box, thusly:  
 

Just for Shimpy to know, Arya's and Sansa's chapter from Winds were very passively-aggressively released before season 4 and 5, in the first case because the show borrowed part of a scene from it (and they liked it so much that they restaged it last season and will revisit it once more next season), in the latter to show what is in store for Sansa in the Vale.

 <---- I can personally never get that option to work on my Mac, no clue why.  Perhaps I'm doing it wrong.  Anyway, I just hand code in tags.

Oh wow, that's going to be sort of hilarious, depending on how wildly they diverge from the show. Given the use of the term "passive-aggressive" I'm going to guess sort of substantially, Terra.

Or, OOW (just trying out an acronym for your name, OhOkayWhat because it tickled me to do so) you can also just type in the code for quotes uses brackets. Copy text you want to quote. Remove the space before the last slash in my example

desired text here [ /quote] and that will create a text box.

I'm having fun finally getting to read the unfiltered opinions of others for once. The stuff with Dany is really interesting, simply because the show heavily implied that with Aerys too, by the way. King BurnThemAll and Dany's rapt "Fire Cannot Harm a Dragon" along with repeated "Viserys was not a Dragon, Rhaegar (hello this is why we thought Jon could not be Rhaegar's son) was the last dragon" really heavily implied that Targs were generally fireproof if they were true Dragons.

Edited February 29, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

The point is that I am sure all those Targ prancing around braying they were 'the dragon' really believed it. Aerion Brightflame wanted a sip of wildfire to be reborn a dragon, Aerys wanted a King's Landing BBQ to get free of his mortal spoils and be reborn a dragon (geez, the charms of being a scaly lizard truly escape me). Illyrio may make fun of that habit:
 

You Westerosi are all the same. You sew some beast upon a scrap of silk, and suddenly you are all lions or dragons or eagles

 

(and how ironic considering he has a dragon up his sleeve too), but it's really amped to the eleventh with the Targs: Aegon the Dragon, Aemon the Dragonknight, the Blood of the dragon, the Dragon's daughter, Fire and Blood, you don't want to wake the dragon, do you?, even little Egg in later years wanted to resort to dragons to rule Westeros through terror *sigh*

 

But we readers are supposed to side-eye the truth of it. Just like the supposed immunity to sickness. Or the 'inhuman' Targ features that are exceedingly common in Essos. These are people caught up in their own web of lies who ended up believing it. Even Rhaegar in his last conversation with Jaime acted as if the Rebellion would have been squashed in the blink of an eye, and he could have resumed his grand plans for the Savior of the world. I do think his death came to him as an utter surprise. He had long concluded he was not the Prince That Was Promised, but I think he still believed himself to be 'safe' from dying in such an ignominious, casual way.

 

That's why Drogo's pyre was truly a miracle: first the petrified eggs quickened again and then they hatched after decades of sorcerers, warlocks, pyromancers and whatnot trying and failing. And twice a miracle since Martin at the very beginning wasn't even sure to include living dragons (he even thanked one of his friends for convincing him in one of the books... Storm, maybe?): he either wanted them to be extinct once and for all, or to never have been tamed in the first place, Valyrians using magic tricks, smoke, wildfire and burning mirrors to claim they rid dragons in battle.

 

Arya's chapter was released to prevent a scene to be shown in the tv series first, you will clearly recognized it while reading. It also contains a hilarious meta-reference to our world XD

I won't say anything about Alayne's chapter, save this: it has a complete different flavor compared to the rest of the books, it looks straight (not a spoiler, more a hint, if you want a tease)

out of a Jane Austen's novel.

 

ETA: the thing with the Alayne's chapter was that Elio, the co-author of A World of Ice and Fire, read it some years ago and quite uncautiosly said it would have been controversial. He later added 'for some part of the fandom', but it was too late: people went apeshit and started theorizing that:

- Sansa would have poisoned Robyn;

- Littlefinger would have poisoned Robyn to death;

- Petyr would have raped her;

- Sansa would have had 'consensual' sex with him;

- last two points, but with Harry the Heir instead of Petyr (geez, do you start sensing a trend?);

- miscellaneous;

so you can imagine the thrill when the chapter was released on George's website, before even having the chance of reading it people who already guessed the JeynePoole-Sansa swap by the promos of Season 5 started screaming bloody murder, that he was posting the rape scene before the show could steal the thunder, so to speak, and that it was totally a confirmation that Sansa was about to be raped, the show only changed the perpetrator, and so on and so forth (some of course adding 'that will teach her for refusing to have sex with Tyrion!') XD You will judge by yourself once you read it, Shimpy.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WSmith84]

@ Terra Nova

 

Season 5

 

Ugh, I remember the awful 'Sansa should have slept with Tyrion' comments surrounding that scene. And that the writers had Sansa say how kind Tyrion was just before she was raped was another nail in the coffin for that storyline. I've never been happy with how they handled the Tyrion-Sansa dynamic; they made him seem as much of a victim as her.

[mac123x]

the thing with the Alayne's chapter was that Elio, the co-author of A World of Ice and Fire, read it some years ago and quite uncautiosly said it would have been controversial

 

It's been some time since I read that preview chapter, but I don't seem to recall anything that would be controversial. 

 

Harold Hardynge is kind of a shallow jerk, being mean to Sansa until he sees how pretty she is, but that's it.  I liked how Alayne treated him at the ball, dancing with others while ignoring him, needling him when they finally did dance, rejecting his request to carry her favor at the joust, etc.  It showed some actual growth in her ability to play the Game of Thrones.  She might not be a major player yet, but she's no longer a helpless pawn.

[Terra Nova]

@WSmith:

 

yeah, it's the same old gist all the time. There's still people claiming that in the end she will get back to Tyrion, and this time she will be able to appreciate him more.

 

@max123x:

 

Alayne's preview chapter spoiler

The controversy according to Elio was that her burgeoning sexuality wasn't related to Sandor, and that he's not in her thoughts at all. Wtf XD Elio, I love you dearly but this is senseless. First, I would say her sexual awakening started with the unkiss and the dream of Sandor climbing in her bed rasping "I'll have a song from you (if you know what I mean)", and second, how this would be controversial anyway? Not even the most rabid SanSan fan would be angry or shocked at that. And I think there is a reference to Sandor anyway: when she thinks what to say to Harry, she discard complimenting him for his dancing abilities since he would hear such empty praise all the time. That's to me a callback to Sandor daring her to say that his brother was 'gallant' too at the Hand's tourney, since she was a Summer Island bird trained to parrot compliments, and she retorts that 'no one could withstand the Mountain', which was also technically true. So yeah, Sansa doesn't think of him, but she remembers what he taught her. The SanSan fan in me would even say the favor being promised to someone else - even if she still does not know who - is a clear foreshadowing of their reunion, lol!

Edited February 29, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Andeleisha]

Lol Terra, you almost make me want to root for SanSan! 

 

Spoilers for TWOW Alayne preview chapter: 

The only thing gross/controversial about it as far as I'm concerned is seeing Sansa exercise her sexuality in this way. I'm glad she's learning to navigate this abusive situation with some agency but this is hardly a healthy worldview.

[Terra Nova]

D: nooes, I don't want to convert anyone! Blame George for that!

 

That's true, Andeleisha, but (Arya's preview chapter)

I was much more grossed out by the way Arya is letting Raff kiss and touch her (eeeeew, she's a child!) and how she's unfazed by the play about Tyrion, since the 'maiden' he harrasses and later kills is supposed to be based on Sansa and Arya knows she was married to the Imp for real! And even the beginning of the chapter, when she gets cat-called by some sailors and she replies all sultry to come to the... I don't remember the name, the place where the mummers stage their play. It's framed as if she's a prostitute telling them to come to her brothel... brrr...

Edited February 29, 2016 by Terra Nova

[mac123x]

Huh.  I never would have guessed that was "controversial."  But I've never been a SanSanFan.

 

Now that Shimpy has finished, can we revisit Dany’s House of the Undying visions?  I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts / guesses now that we’re free of the spoiler tags:

 

The Undying (before trying to eat her) showed her a few things, past present and future:

 

1.  Viserys’s death scene
2.  A tall lord with copper-skin and silver-gold hair beneath a banner of a fiery stallion, with a burning city in the background
3.  Rhaegar’s death at the Battle of the Trident
4.  A blue-eyed king who casts no shadow carrying a red sword
5.  A cloth dragon on poles being cheered by a crowd
6.  A stone beast taking wing from a smoking tower, breathing shadow
7.  Dany’s silver horse trotting by a stream
8.  A corpse in the prow of a ship with bright eyes and grey lips
9.  A blue flower growing in a wall of ice

 

My guesses are:

 

1 – The past, pretty obvious

 

2 – I have no idea.  Is this supposed to be AU, the path not taken, the future if Rhaego hadn’t died?  Or is Dany destined to have a baby with another Dothraki, because I don’t really want to wait for that kid to grow up.  Maybe she will, and this is sequel bait for A Song of Ice and Fire, The Next Generation

 

3 – Also the past

 

4 – Stannis presumably, with his pseudo-Lightbringer and the shadowbaby assassins.

 

5  Aegon VI, indicating that he’s the Mummer’s Dragon, a.k.a., a pretender.

 

6.  Yeah, no clue on that one.  I guess it’s from a future book

 

7.  Could be a random scene from her original trip though the Dothraki Sea, or could be the future?  No idea.  IIRC, her horse is currently parked in a stable somewhere in Meereen.

 

8.  I go back and forth on this one.  Victarion is in a ship, and, given his semi-dead fire-animated arm, could be a metaphorical corpse.  The grey lips make me think of greyscale and Jon Connington, but he’s already off the ship and on dry land.  I guess it could be a vision of him during his trip from Volantis to the Stormlands, but it seems kind of lame to have the corresponding real world events to one of Dany’s visions happen off-page.

 

9.  No idea who this refers to.  I’m absolutely flummoxed and confused and not at all thinking that this is a giant big red arrow pointing at R+L=J.

[Lady S.]

It's been some time since I read that preview chapter, but I don't seem to recall anything that would be controversial. 

 

Harold Hardynge is kind of a shallow jerk, being mean to Sansa until he sees how pretty she is, but that's it.  I liked how Alayne treated him at the ball, dancing with others while ignoring him, needling him when they finally did dance, rejecting his request to carry her favor at the joust, etc.  It showed some actual growth in her ability to play the Game of Thrones.  She might not be a major player yet, but she's no longer a helpless pawn.

Apparently Elio thinks all Sansa fans are SanSan shippers because that does tend to go hand in hand with the Sansa defense league on w.org.

 

I'm having fun finally getting to read the unfiltered opinions of others for once. The stuff with Dany is really interesting, simply because the show heavily implied that with Aerys too, by the way. King BurnThemAll and Dany's rapt "Fire Cannot Harm a Dragon" along with repeated "Viserys was not a Dragon, Rhaegar (hello this is why we thought Jon could not be Rhaegar's son) was the last dragon" really heavily implied that Targs were generally fireproof if they were true Dragons.

I don't think that was an intentional implication with Aerys at all. He liked to burn people to death using wildfire, but I don't see how that means he was fireproof. It's not like he was said to be standing in burn proximity while Rickard Stark was roasted. And what about Jaime and everyone who stood by and watched as this happened in open court? The fire must have been fairly well contained to kill only the people meant to die and if Aerys was on his throne he would have safer than most.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Lady S.

[vibeology]

#6 Reads very much like what Bran sees when he's warging Summer as Winterfell burns. It could be either that she was also seeing Winterfell burn. there are Ice Dragon theories out there. Maybe she was seeing it too.

[Terra Nova]

9 is clearly Jon Snow, the blue rose being the symbol of Lyanna.

1, 2 and 3 also accompany the 'daughter of death' naming: that's because Dany has to step on her relatives' cold corpses to become the heir of her House, and that implies also her unborn child (and what a warlord he would have been!). With her son living, she would have transferred her desire for power and her will to rule to him; she even thinks about deposing Viserys while he's still alive and giving bloodriders to her son, when 'he sits on the Iron Throne'. She 'needs' the males to be removed for her to rule in her own right.

 

4,5 and 6 go with the 'slayer of lies', and 6 is too obscure to me. Someone proposed some fake dragon conjured by Melisandre, but the evidence is really thin.

 

7,8 and 9 are the 'bride of fire' snippet: the filly is for her marriage with Drogo, 9 is foreshadowing of her falling in love with Jon? The rose fills the air with sweetness after all... I hope not è_é 8 means that some Greyjoy will take her by force? She did dream of a man penetrating her, cold as ice and with parched blue lips. If he's not Euron I don't know who. 

 

ETA: Steven Attewell made a very nice breakdown of the visions in the HotU in his re-read project:

https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2015/10/26/chapter-by-chapter-analysis-daenerys-iv-acok/

Edited February 29, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

Blue flower blooming in an ice wall: the ice cells that have that dead men in it might have something to do with that.  Blue flower = the blue light in Zomboni eyes?  I really don't know.  Is there anyone in an ice cell with a crest of arms/banner/shield device that has a blue flower? 

 

 

 

A stone beast taking wing from a smoking tower, breathing shadow

 

Sounds like Melisandre will manage to wake a dragon from stone, maybe? 

 

 

 

I don't think that was an intentional implication with Aerys at all. He liked to burn people to death using wildfire, but I don't see how that means he was fireproof.

I was specifically replying to the whole "we could never figure out why the Unsullied thought Jon being burnt meant he couldn't be a Targ?"  because we were led to believe that Rhaegar was "a dragon"  and that Viserys NOT being one was unusual.  We also thought that all Targs normally were.  I'm talking about an implication in the show and why the Unsullied reached that conclusion, that you don't see it as an implication doesn't really impact why we thought that...? So....?  Seriously, I have no idea why you're refuting an explanation of why the Unsullied group believed something.  It's not a matter of agree or disagree, it's a matter of "Oh well, as it turns out, we were clearly wrong....but here's why...."   I understand now having read the books that that is incorrect. 

 

The show -- we felt -- had implied that Viserys not being a dragon was unusual in a Targ.  We thought that meant being fireproof.  We believed that because Dany didn't burn.  Similarly King Crazypants died saying what he had been saying for hours "Burn them all"  ...and we were also led to believe he'd been burning people alive because the details of Brandon and Rickard Stark's death were never filled in.  

 

ETA:  

so you can imagine the thrill when the chapter was released on George's website, before even having the chance of reading it people who already guessed the JeynePoole-Sansa swap by the promos of Season 5 started screaming bloody murder

 

I never saw the promos.  Did the promos show Sansa and Ramsay or something? Why could people guess that swap from the promos?  

Edited March 1, 2016 by stillshimpy

[OhOkayWhat]

GertrudeDR, WSmith84, Terra Nova (I hope I am not forgetting someone), I read your comments related to the ones I wrote and even if I don't agree with some things in your comments, the conversation inspired me (and it will continue to inspire) some reflections, thank you!
 

Shimpy, thank you too for the nice welcome and your advice about the quote thingies, I will try to use them in my next comment!

Edited March 1, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[WindyNights]

Huh. I never would have guessed that was "controversial." But I've never been a SanSanFan.

Now that Shimpy has finished, can we revisit Dany’s House of the Undying visions? I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts / guesses now that we’re free of the spoiler tags:

The Undying (before trying to eat her) showed her a few things, past present and future:

1. Viserys’s death scene

2. A tall lord with copper-skin and silver-gold hair beneath a banner of a fiery stallion, with a burning city in the background

3. Rhaegar’s death at the Battle of the Trident

4. A blue-eyed king who casts no shadow carrying a red sword

5. A cloth dragon on poles being cheered by a crowd

6. A stone beast taking wing from a smoking tower, breathing shadow

7. Dany’s silver horse trotting by a stream

8. A corpse in the prow of a ship with bright eyes and grey lips

9. A blue flower growing in a wall of ice

My guesses are:

1 – The past, pretty obvious

2 – I have no idea. Is this supposed to be AU, the path not taken, the future if Rhaego hadn’t died? Or is Dany destined to have a baby with another Dothraki, because I don’t really want to wait for that kid to grow up. Maybe she will, and this is sequel bait for A Song of Ice and Fire, The Next Generation

3 – Also the past

4 – Stannis presumably, with his pseudo-Lightbringer and the shadowbaby assassins.

5 Aegon VI, indicating that he’s the Mummer’s Dragon, a.k.a., a pretender.

6. Yeah, no clue on that one. I guess it’s from a future book

7. Could be a random scene from her original trip though the Dothraki Sea, or could be the future? No idea. IIRC, her horse is currently parked in a stable somewhere in Meereen.

8. I go back and forth on this one. Victarion is in a ship, and, given his semi-dead fire-animated arm, could be a metaphorical corpse. The grey lips make me think of greyscale and Jon Connington, but he’s already off the ship and on dry land. I guess it could be a vision of him during his trip from Volantis to the Stormlands, but it seems kind of lame to have the corresponding real world events to one of Dany’s visions happen off-page.

9. No idea who this refers to. I’m absolutely flummoxed and confused and not at all thinking that this is a giant big red arrow pointing at R+L=J.

Slayer of lies (Things she'll probably have to kill or reveal as false):

4 Stannis- False Messiah (not having shadow could be in reference to the shadow-babies but also to him having little influence in the end. Varys equates shadows with influence in his speech about power)

5 Aegon- False Targaryen (crowd cheering might mean he's going to be a good and popular king)

6 ???- False Dragon

Bride of Fire (people she'll marry):

7 The silver horse represents Khal Drogo. It was a gift she got from him for her wedding.

8 The dead man in the prow of the ship with gray lips smiling sadly is most likely a Greyjoy. Considering it's Bride of Fire and Victarion has a volcanic arm now and may be undead then it's probably him. But it could just as well be Euron Greyjoy.

9. The blue rose in the wall of ice that filled the air with sweetness is Jon Snow. A blue rose represents Lyanna's union with Rhaegar. GRRM also typically uses sweetness as a negative in this series. Usually it's in reference to death, poison, foul odors and deceit (covering up foulness). Perhaps it's in reference to Jon being a corpse or Jon coming back wrong (like all people R'hllor resurrects) or that Jon is Dany's death. Maybe all 3.

GRRM also loves to connect love, sweet, poison and death to each other.

In reference to Dany being the Bride of Fire( as in her husband is fire) there's this:

"...the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud. You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time."

Edited March 1, 2016 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

8 means that some Greyjoy will take her by force? She did dream of a man penetrating her, cold as ice and with parched blue lips. If he's not Euron I don't know who.

Yeah but that's not foreshadowing. That's Euron pulling a Bloodraven and dream-walking into her dream but instead of mentoring her like Bloodraven does with Bran, he rapes her.

Euron is basically a handsome Freddy Krueger.

Edited March 1, 2016 by WindyNights

[Alayne Stone]

The blue rose has been specifically linked to Lyanna Stark who has been noted in text as having been fond of blue roses.

 

Jon being the son of Lyanna (presumably) would be the blue flower growing in a chink of ice. It's the closest thing to a sigil he could possibly have any claim to and he has "grown" and blossomed in his own way on the wall through his ascent in the ranks. I really don't think it's any more or less complicated than that.

 

And let's not forget how blue roses have been specifically linked to Starks, not only with Lyanna but also with the Bael the Bard stealing the winter rose of Winterfell story.

 

Chris24601: I absolutely agree with you that even if the final battle will not be at Winterfell, the resolution will be. Dany's vision of fighting the Others on the Trident seems a likely place for the final battle and it would also be fitting in that circular logic, things ending where they began sort of way, in that the rebellion was "ended" with Rhaegar's death at the trident ... and now the battle for Dawn will end there too.

 

ETA: wow, way to make me more creeped out by Euron than I already was lol

 

ETA II: I've seen some people speculate #6 was the dragon Bran's wolf supposedly saw released from Winterfell. Or it will be some sort of stone dragon released by Mel. I don't think this one has occurred yet and it's the one I feel least confident about as far as proposed theories have gone.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[Ashara Payne]

Yeah, the blue roses were Lyanna's favourite flowers, I think she might have had some on her deathbed, certainly the crown of roses that Rhaegar threw into her lap at the Harrenhal tourney were particularly surprising because it was well-known she liked them. There are even theories that other people were aware of Rhaegar's plan and helped him get the flowers from Winterfell's greenhouse. You can spend longer reading all the theories than it takes to read the books.

https://bluewinterrose.wordpress.com/2015/02/14/examining-blue-winter-roses-part-one/

Edited March 1, 2016 by Ashara Payne

[stillshimpy]

I was going to say, aren't Blue Roses just Winter Roses?  I agree, it could absolutely support the "That's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son" and truthfully, Jon is someone's son, but he isn't poor Second Choice Ned's.  

[WindyNights]

@shimpy So in the end who ended up being your top 3 POVS on average?

I was going to say, aren't Blue Roses just Winter Roses? I agree, it could absolutely support the "That's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son" and truthfully, Jon is someone's son, but he isn't poor Second Choice Ned's.

Imagine if Ashara's daughter had lived and Ashara had asked Ned to promise to take care of her right before she killed herself.

Then Ned the lady-killer would be stuck having to explain two different bastards to Cat.

Eddard: Uh.....I've been busy.

[GertrudeDR]

I read your comments related to the ones I wrote and even if I don't agree with some things in your comments, the conversation inspired me (and it will continue to inspire) some reflections, thank you!

 

Wow, I like this board :) Way more fun to have actual discussions rather than bang your head into a wall over and over again.

[Ashara Payne]

Wow, I like this board :) Way more fun to have actual discussions rather than bang your head into a wall over and over again.

I'm seriously starting to believe that the vast majority of YouTube comments are left by children. Or at least, adults who never actually learnt to disagree civilly, they just continued with the "I'm right, you're wrong, ner-be-ner" childhood squabbles but with added insults, snark and the desperate need to win. You have to be above all that to even enjoy ASOIAF (unless you're an intellectual academic who disdains such popular culture), let alone debate it. The fact that it can even be debated is why it's so popular, IMHO.

[Terra Nova]

I never saw the promos.  Did the promos show Sansa and Ramsay or something? Why could people guess that swap from the promos?  

 

There were reports of Sophie Turner being spotted on the outdoor Winterfell set early last year, so there were already people rumbling. But then the nail on the coffin was the first trailer: there was Littlefinger cupping Sansa's face and telling her 'avenge them!' and the briefest glimpse of her lightning a candle in what were clearly the Winterfell crypts. That was enough: Sansa was going to Winterfell, and while someone proposed she would have been some merge between Lady Stoneheart and Wyman Manderly, on a darker and even unsavory path of revenge in Winterfell disguised as 'Alayne', maybe plotting with the other Northern Lords (ahahah! oh, my sides...) most people went the other route and said:

 

- there's a Bolton-'Stark' marriage in the books;

- book!Sansa is promised to someone who looks like a womanizer jerk;

- there's the 'controversial' chapter, it MUST be rape!

- yeah but who is gonna rape San- WHO CARES IT'S RAPE!

 

=> they're conflating the Jeyne Poole marriage with Sansa's; yeah, we don't know if she really ends up marrying Harry the Heir, and shallow and jerkass he may be, he's not even in the same league of Joffrey, let alone Ramsay, but they're gonna do it, mark our words! The actress is 18 now!

 

And, truth to be told, there have been discussions about how to adapt the Jeyne Poole marriage between fans since Season 2 and 3: Jeyne was an unnamed extra in the first season but she was never established or brought up after that. So people wondered who was supposed to fill that role.

I personally was dead sure it would have been Ros (yes, she's too old, but bear with me, this could have been retconned or just ignored by the showrunners) posing as Sansa: they are both red-headed, Sansa is the elder girl anyway, Ros knew Winterfell so she wouldn't have looked like a fish out of water. More importantly, in Season 2 Littlefinger told her that prostitutes who don't make profits are shipped to horrible men who like to torture and maim them. Of course, this worked with Joffrey and her canon demise, but at the time I took it as foreshadowing for Ramsay: Littlefinger would have found out that she was in league with Varys and would have shipped her to the Boltons, killing two birds with a stone. She even had a relationship with Theon! It would have been a very good adaptational choice in my opinion...

 

Other proposed they would have just cut the marriage and have Sansa in Winterfell working as a hook for Theon reclaiming his identity, and so on... a lot of theories and speculation, because most of bookreaders were pretty sure the show would have never diverged that much, nor they would have had a main character raped while in the books her virginity is a pretty important thing. And how could they explain the dissolution with Tyrion's marriage anyway? Would they just... brush it away?

 

So, in conclusion, people knew Sansa would have been in Winterfell, but not the details; the 'controversial chapter' and the increased perception of the show pumping up the shock! were the main pros for the marriage/rape route. The cons were the alteration of the source material and the several leaps of logic that would have made such marriage possible in the first place. The rest is history XD

[ambi76]

I won't say anything about Alayne's chapter, save this: it has a complete different flavor compared to the rest of the books, it looks straight (not a spoiler, more a hint, if you want a tease)

out of a Jane Austen's novel.

 

Oh God yes, Terra. I fucking hate the Alayne TWOW chapter for that reason and am totally down with all the others even the POVs I don't ususally care for. It actually reads like mediocre fanfiction for 75% of the text. The last quater

(when Sansa starts to channel Tyrion's snark)

is okay I guess.

[Terra Nova]

That's something that truly gave me pause: I too felt as if I was reading an unfinished fanfic. Surely with later rewriting it will get tighter and better (some sentences are truly redundant), but the first impression was truly bizarre. It's not at all the vibe I got from Arya's chapter, for example, even considered the obvious differences between the two, namely that

Mercy's chapter is much more self-contained, just like all Arya's chapters in the HoBaW. Alayne's is 'Pride and Prejudice', starring Harold Hardyng as Mr. Darcy's jerk cousin.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Avaleigh]

Oh God yes, Terra. I fucking hate the Alayne TWOW chapter for that reason and am totally down with all the others even the POVs I don't ususally care for. It actually reads like mediocre fanfiction for 75% of the text. The last quater

(when Sansa starts to channel Tyrion's snark)

is okay I guess.

Regarding Alayne I

I was expecting something controversial, so that already kind of set me up for not really enjoying it that much. Controversial is the last word that I would have used to describe it. Sansa is basically behaving the way she did when she was hanging out with Jeyne Poole in the first book. The massive lemon cake, the giggling and running around with Myranda--I guess it's nice that Sansa's having a good time but when I think of where everyone else is in their story for me it was kind of a let down. I'm still looking forward to seeing what happens with Sansa but that chapter lowered my expectations. Hopefully there really will be some interesting courtly intrigue and more explorations with Sansa's identity issues.

 

Regarding the blue rose on the Wall in the House of the Undying vision, prior to seeing the HotU on the show, I only took the rose on the Wall to be a nod to the existence of Jon. With the scene from the show I'm of two minds. My first impression was that Dany was seeing her heart's desire on the Wall and that's why Drogo and their child are in the scene. I thought this was a hint that Jon was in her future. Now I'm leaning towards the idea that Dany eventually dies on or beyond the Wall and that's how she's reunited with Drogo and Rhaego. The first option is a more optimistic interpretation but since this series tends to be dark, I'm inclined to lean towards the second option. I won't be surprised if Dany dies at the end of the series. It seems fitting for her character. 

[Terra Nova]

But in the show version of the House of the Undying too there's the blue rose, right above the Iron Throne:

 

http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/55775b17320a56cf4240d0b3/master/w_690,c_limit/dany-throne-got.gif

 

(and there's Snow covering it) The Blue Rose was in every stained glass window of the Red Keep (it's right behind Ned's back when he objects to killing pregnant Dany) and is switched with red roses only after Bob's death. So I would say that even on show the blue rose is a symbol for Lyanna and the love for her.

 

But I too took the 'visions' in the show as temptations for Dany, just like in the book too: first she's been offered power, and she backs away only instants before touching the Throne's barbs when she ears her dragons, and after that she's been offered a family, that she renounces yet again when her dragons call her. Of course, there was a prophetic component to that too, since the Throne Room is some possible future when Winter has come, and the Wall shows her where the true enemy lies. Under that other layer there are hints to Jon Snow, and maybe her eventual demise. The show portrayal of the HotU is not the worst adaptational choice they made.

[WSmith84]

@ Terra Nova

 

That idea to use Ros instead of Jeyne actually sounds pretty good. Sure, the age thing is a problem, but the show ignores things that are inconvenient (hello, Sansa's marriage!) all the time when it wants to. It would also give Ramsey a motivation to abuse her: he knows she's not real and is essentially being married to a common whore. Given his issues with bastardry and how his father sees him, his father marrying him to a prostitute instead of a highborn lady would sting. Not that he needs motivations to hurt people of course.

 

And I also enjoyed the visions in the show's House of the Undying. Sure, they weren't as fantastic as in the books, but they did a good job.

[Avaleigh]

Since the first season I've felt that they should have just had the character Jeyne instead of Ros altogether. It would have made such a difference.

[Dev F]

My theory regarding Sansa/Ramsay was that they were going to replace the threat of sexual violence with one of moral corruption. Before season 5, show!Ramsay was not shown to be a sexual sadist in the way that book!Ramsay is. Sure, he enjoyed torturing and humiliating people more generally, but he seemed attracted to strong women who were eager to share in his sick games rather than the helpless victims of said games. So it would've made some sense if the danger was not that Sansa would become Jeyne Poole, but that she would become Myranda -- that Littlefinger's lessons about hardening her heart in order to take revenge on her enemies would've led her to become a willing participant in his cruelties.

 

Especially if those cruelties were directed at people Sansa already had reason to hate -- like Myranda, Ramsay's jealous ex-lover, and especially Theon, the man who destroyed her home and killed her brothers. I could certainly see that as the main arc of the storyline: Sansa gradually realizing that even Theon doesn't deserve what Ramsay is doing to him, and eventually risking her comfortable position by her husband's side to save that miserable traitor.

[Alayne Stone]

I really like the Alayne chapter for TWOW, but it took a while for it to grow on me.

 

For one, I don't mind the Jane Austin feel. Frankly, it was nice to have lighter fare to read for once. Especially when you consider the content of the Mercy chapter. But more than that, there's quite a bit going on behind the scenes that I found really interesting. Like Littlefinger maneuvering to hike up the prices on all food coming out of the Vale, a savvy thing to do as the Vale is the only region that has been untouched by the war. I also get the feeling that more of the Lords know that Sansa's in disguise. And what can I say? I enjoyed Harry the Heir. He's a jerk, but he does not appear to be on the same level that we are used to. He's just innocently pompous as far as we know. It was a fun chapter for me. But I think it goes without saying that Sansa is one of my favorite characters, so I'm obviously biased in that regard. ;)

 

I don't want to say too much about Sansa's plot turn in season 5 other than the fact that I was one of those people who SWORE UP AND DOWN that there was no way that switch would happen because it made absolutely no sense and why would the show do that? Little did I know, sweet summer child that I was ...

Edited March 1, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[mac123x]

I was baffled as to the point of the Mercy chapter. 

Why was Arya working for those mummer, was she on assignment from the Faceless Men?  Are they going to be mad that she broke her cover for her personal vendetta?  She didn't seem too concerned. 

 

Maybe it was supposed to be in medias res and we'll find out later what the context was.

[WindyNights]

I was baffled as to the point of the Mercy chapter.

Why was Arya working for those mummer, was she on assignment from the Faceless Men? Are they going to be mad that she broke her cover for her personal vendetta? She didn't seem too concerned.

Maybe it was supposed to be in medias res and we'll find out later what the context was.

Yep she's on (TWOW spoiler)

assignment. The Faceless Men promoted her to an acolyte and assigned her to Izembaro, the King of the Mummers. It was supposed to be her first chapter after the timeskip.

Edited March 2, 2016 by WindyNights

[Alayne Stone]

Yeah, in regard to the Mercy chapter ...

I would say the purpose is for Arya to learn an advanced form of lying (i.e. acting) ... so that she is not simply lying, but learning to take on a role in its entirety. I feel like there's even more to it, like she's supposed to be spying on someone ... but I've only read the chapter once so the details are fuzzy for me.

[fantique]

Hey you guys... I can't believe I just realised this thread existed. (:/)

This is quite late to join the party but I'm tired of lurking on w.org and this is a fun way to talk about the books and the show without needing to "take sides".

Mercy

is it a consensus that Mercy is playing Sansa? I always assumed she played Shae because her lines reminded me of her testimony at Tyrion's trial and the part seems to be of a lowborn girl. I guess I get the appeal to always link to a known character, and her sister no less but Sansa is not the only "maiden" in the story.

Alayne in Winds

What I find interesting g is that that this chapter was intended to be in Dance but was later moved. I know there was a size problem but I wish the editor had asked for more succinct Tyrion and Dany chapters rather than taking this out. I feel like I would have been prepared for the tone change better. Not that it was bad, I enjoyed it. I liked that it solved one of the biggest problem I have with Sansa POVs; the suppression of her personality was too effective. It often felt too much like she was there to be the eyes in the room or get insight into LF. It's not bad from time to time but it's hard for me to like a character "as a person" if they're just a camera. Someone mentioned that it was like the earlier chapters with her and Jeyne Poole, I agree and I liked it because it felt like she was finally letting her self come out. To me, it's a great lesson she learnt; to charm people, you don't become a pod person parroting words, you give them something to hook them in.

Question to stillshimpy, this might have already been addressed so sorry if that's the case. Like the fire immunity question*, are there other things you took as fact but were different in the books? To me, guest right and the RW outrage didn't come across as strongly (and I'm being generous) in the show.

General question: the more I (re)read the books, the bigger the gap between the two Tywins I find. Am I the only one? On w.org, I understand it that most find Book-Tywin to be simply pragmatic and tough, and feel the (not always so) reluctant admiration I feel for show-Tywin. I find the book counterpart to be much more brutal and petty, often times unnecessarily unyielding without a reason other than just being ruthless.

*(I was unspoiled for the first 4 seasons and I got the same impression about Dany being fireproof. Although I assumed that among the family, there would be special ones, hence Viserys succumbing to the molten gold.)

Edited March 3, 2016 by fantique

[ElizaD]

General question: the more I (re)read the books, the bigger the gap between the two Tywins I find. Am I the only one? On w.org, I understand it that most find Book-Tywin to be simply pragmatic and tough, and feel the (not always so) reluctant admiration I feel for show-Tywin. I find the book counterpart to be much more brutal and petty, often times unnecessarily unyielding without a reason other than just being ruthless.

 

The showrunners said that Tywin is neither sadistic nor evil, so that's definitely a different interpretation from the books where Tywin's atrocities (either those he ordered himself, like Tysha's horrifying rape, or those he encouraged as a deliberate policy, like the Mountain's abuses in the Riverlands) aren't kept out of sight. The show doesn't really address the amount of hate that Tywin has inspired or acknowledge that his deeds are considered distasteful even by faux-medieval Westerosi standards, so that Show Tywin is indeed less brutal and petty. In the books there's the idea that Tywin is trying to compensate for his father's weakness by his extreme brutality and has a fear of being laughed at the way his father was that ultimately ended up being just as destructive to his house: if he'd been content to send Tysha away instead of having Tyrion participate in her rape to teach him a lesson, he might still be alive and Cersei wouldn't be wrecking their hold on the throne - which shows that being brutal is not the same thing as being pragmatic. But that's one point that was completely lost on the show, where Tywin can order a girl raped without it making him either evil or a leader who makes poor decisions (Tywin's cruelty to his son's wife wasn't smarter than Ned's mercy to Cersei's children just because it was more ruthless - even the kinslaying taboo can only protect you so far).

 

Despite my absolute loathing of Sansa's season 5 storyline, the corruption storyline proposed above could actually have been interesting since it would have involved Sansa learning to manipulate people while having to make decisions about how far she can go, morally. But then Ramsay wouldn't have been the all-powerful badass/rapist and Sansa would have taken his place as the protagonist at Winterfell, so no chance of that happening.

[WindyNights]

The showrunners said that Tywin is neither sadistic nor evil, so that's definitely a different interpretation from the books where Tywin's atrocities (either those he ordered himself, like Tysha's horrifying rape, or those he encouraged as a deliberate policy, like the Mountain's abuses in the Riverlands) aren't kept out of sight. The show doesn't really address the amount of hate that Tywin has inspired or acknowledge that his deeds are considered distasteful even by faux-medieval Westerosi standards, so that Show Tywin is indeed less brutal and petty. In the books there's the idea that Tywin is trying to compensate for his father's weakness by his extreme brutality and has a fear of being laughed at the way his father was that ultimately ended up being just as destructive to his house: if he'd been content to send Tysha away instead of having Tyrion participate in her rape to teach him a lesson, he might still be alive and Cersei wouldn't be wrecking their hold on the throne - which shows that being brutal is not the same thing as being pragmatic. But that's one point that was completely lost on the show, where Tywin can order a girl raped without it making him either evil or a leader who makes poor decisions (Tywin's cruelty to his son's wife wasn't smarter than Ned's mercy to Cersei's children just because it was more ruthless - even the kinslaying taboo can only protect you so far).

Despite my absolute loathing of Sansa's season 5 storyline, the corruption storyline proposed above could actually have been interesting since it would have involved Sansa learning to manipulate people while having to make decisions about how far she can go, morally. But then Ramsay wouldn't have been the all-powerful badass/rapist and Sansa would have taken his place as the protagonist at Winterfell, so no chance of that happening.

Yeah the show producer's opinions on Tywin were odd to say the least . They've gone on record saying that they think of Tywin as Lawful Neutral.

In addition to that, they took part of his "never smiling" characterization and implanted it onto Stannis. I sometimes wonder if they mixed and matched between the two.

And well personally, the way Charles Dance plays Tywin was closer to how I imagined Stannis in my head. This growly man that seems like he's always on the verge of shouting rather than the emotionally constipated man on the show.

[Terra Nova]

The show portrayed Tywin as the character himself likes to be portrayed: the rough and pragmatic but not petty or cruel for the sake of it man.

The Harrenhal scenes in Season 2 where he passes as an almost loving grandfather to Arya are cringeworthy, not to mention that the guy doesn't get suspicious at a self-professed Northern girl on the run, with a dead father, who's able to read and spell 'my lord'.

 

But the same happened with Cersei and Tyrion: their show portrayal is much closer to what the characters think of themselves, in the first case the poor victim of the patriarchy who's not without reason when resorting to unsavory means, and the funny little man the society hates for no reason at all. Poor Jaime drew the shortest stick, apparently XD

[Ashara Payne]

Tenth and final episode of the Unabashed Book Snobbery podcast is out now if anyone is interested.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/unabashed-book-snobbery/id1065512366?mt=2&i=364052931

[stillshimpy]

Sorry guys, I got to do some exterior painting the other day when the weather stopped being shitastic for an entire 24 hour period so I've been a little absent.  

 

Hi fantique and welcome aboard :-)  

 

So in the end who ended up being your top 3 POVS on average?

 

I can't even believe how difficult it is for me to decide who my favorite POVs were/are.  

 

I think we all know who brings up the rear on that for me, because god knows I will go on (at length) about who I dislike.   Iron Islander's sans Theon and Asha are at the bottom and yeah, I did just include Theon as one I liked.  I think his will be the most interesting material for a re-read. Dany and Tyrion.  Dany for being dull, Tyrion for being....well, you guys know already.  I think Tyrion's great when he's doing something other than giving me a report of what's going on with Schlong or getting drunk.  Unfortunately, those two activities probably encompass about half of Tyrion's overall material. It's repetitive and unappealing.  

 

Top three though that was much more difficult to figure out because a couple of POVs I really, really enjoyed only got a few chapters.  

 

Here are the first three that occurred to me, but I did notice all of them have the same thing in common:  they were fresh and new to me.  

 

1. Davos.  Yeah, I know but here's the thing, of the three or four actively good things that have happened in these books?  My favorite one was that moment with Manderly.  Then the other thing is that Davos is a good man.  He's loyal, he's loving and he's motivated by things I can understand in a person., but he's trying to operate in a harsh and unforgiving world, in dreadful circumstances.  

 

But he doesn't let those dreadful Circumstances change who he is and if there is a point to reading these stories for me, it isn't to see how horribly low all the decent characters are laid by war, corruption, violence and greed around them, it is to see who has enough strength of character to both bend like a reed, and still remain unmovable when it comes to terrible things.  Since it's about the only hope our own world has ever had those are the characters that interest me the most.  

 

2. I wouldn't have said it at the top of this story and certainly not after merely watching the series, but Jon would actually be my second choice for many of the same reasons.  He clearly is not Ned's son, but he also sort of clearly is in a lot of ways that count.  He's a little foolish and blind, a little too headstrong and unable to read a room, but he's smart, he's resourceful and he spends almost no time making me want to puke. 

 

3. I'm torn between Brienne and Cat here and I think I'll go with Cat.  Catelyn is difficult to read.  She makes a lot of terrible mistakes. She isn't a character I admire, but I feel for her.  The mistakes she makes are human and whereas I don't like the very strong implication that she mistreated Jon, I also think that she was a very young woman when her husband brought home a kid, said "he's going to be raised here, you have no say in it, and that's the end of that" ....it's illustrative of her biggest flaw.  She's mulish. 

 

But she's also the most tragic figure in the books for me.  If they'd just stayed the fuck at Winterfell , the whole story would have been different.  

 

So that was the "okay, keeping in mind how many POVs they had instead of going with my kneejerk reaction" list, here's my knee-jerk "These are the ones I enjoyed the most"  list: 

1.   Melisandre -- yeah, I know, she had exactly one chapter but she is the character that it was the biggest revelation to learn something about, because she was nothing, nothing at all like I thought she would be.  Plus, she might be a reanimated thing herself, but her intent is actually....it's good.  Stunned the hell out of me and was the most gripping, rapid read of all of them. 

 

2. That Epilogue on Dance was a really, really good chapter.  

 

3. Brienne, for the same reasons I valued Davos chapters, but this one comes with one "this was a big detraction", Gods Almighty, Martin, we know she's ugly, okay?  Give it a rest.  

 

Like the fire immunity question*, are there other things you took as fact but were different in the books?

 

Oh boy, let's see.   

 

The Men of the Wall are really not interchangeable with their book counterparts.  On the show, that place is a fucking prison colony and everyone acts accordingly.  It turned out there is a LOT more to them, to Mance (probably the biggest "holy shit, that's who that character was as a person?"  revelation) .  

 

There are details throughout, like "Oh SHIT, Catelyn made Ned go to King's Landing?!?" things that were presented as the opposite in the show and came as kind of a stunning revelation, but mostly it has been an expansion, rather than a reversal of things, if that makes sense?  

 

Let me think about that while I walk my dogs and get back to you on it.  For instance, there's always going to be stuff like "What the fuck order did the events of the rebellion look like?"  that the show NEVER cleared up that the book just rather sanely and swiftly did.  

 

We also didn't realize there was any difference between a warg and a skin-changer.  

 

But it's going to pour here so I have to walk my dogs before it's off the table as a possibility.  

[stillshimpy]

Oh there's one that I would not have guessed watching the series:  Varys is a Targaryen supporter.  Keep in mind, in the series, he seemingly dispatches an assassin for Dany.  He seemingly support Illyrio in sending Viserys off with the Dothraki also.  Nothing about that says, "He's a Targ supporter!"  because the TV series, those are your only two options as  Targaryens.  There is no Aegon-Faegon-Pudidng-and-Pie  so there's no way for him to be a Targaryen supporter.  

 

He has that conversation with Illyrio, but since all of his actions actually support taking out the Targs, I thought people who would assert that were just daft.  From the series, there's almost no way to logically reach that conclusion.   Plus Dany in the series brings her dragons back with magic.  So Varys as a Targ supporter was another "What now? That doesn't make sense from this, this and this angle."  

 

In the TV series, Brienne is basically Don Quixote in a lot of ways.  She's beyond useless, even if she has very good intentions. She's a nice fuck-up, but she's almost a figure of mockery.  

 

Again, this is all a direct answer to a specific question I've just been asked.  

 

Similarly, Stannis?  Hard to view as anything other than POC , at least for me, although he had his supporters on The Spitball Wall , in the Show....he knows he's had Renly killed.  It's impossible to take that as anything other than the mark of a really crappy person.  

 

Then the last one is so obvious I barely need to state it:  I thought George R. R. Martin had to be the biggest damned homophobe, for very, very obvious reasons relating to the TV series treatment.