Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Terra Nova]

Theon

so this is the source for the 'feigned death' scenario someone enthusiastically mentioned after past Jon's chapter. Basically Stannis doesn't have the high ground... yet. It is implied he wants to dig more holes in the lakes flanking the crofters village so to weaken the ice -his men already saw how easy it is to slip in the water in his last chapter. It was also underlined how smoothly the lake banks stretch underwater so that with the snow covering them there's no way to know those are lakes. So the mounted Freys will charge on the ice and go down full Alexander Nevskij style. Whomever survives will reach the shore in a crippled state and be dispatched by Stannis infantry. What he doesn't know is that Manderly will surely turn on the Freys as soon as the battle starts, making things even easier. And a nice irony: Bolton's army thought to have double agents in the enemy one while the same happens in their ranks? Then Stannis will use Karstarks men to give his sword back to Ramsay as evidence of his death, infiltrate Winterfell and have the backdoors opened to him. That's why he stresses to Justin to raise sellswords even with rumors of his death. The other reason of course being that he considers Shireen his heir and that's it. Even Selyse in the books is much closer to a smothering Lysa cheerising her precious daughter than the evil stepmother

Season 5

that is also the reason of the uproar for Stannis' demise: illogical, rushed, contrieved and clearly the opposite of what happens in the books, and that is even without entering more 'burning' topics. What victories has the Bastard won, for Stannis to fear him? *twenty good men in the distance, Ramsay hopping around shirtless*

And what is worse is that the trailer the other day showed

the Battle of the Bastards as the fan called it, with Jon at the head of Northern loyalists and wildlings. So much for time constraints, they got ridden of their hated Stannis the first chance they got to rehash the same plot point one season later with the more conventional goody goody hero. Every change they made cheapens the narrative and makes it closer to conventional fantasy clichés. Sorry but I am truly bitter about this :(

ETA I am anyway not so sure about what Bran wants. He may have his own plans beside murderous comeuppance.

Also, the officially released chapters usually get only minor tweakings. These chapters are shorter, but more in line with the average length back from AsoS. It's Dance and in smaller measure Feast which got in comparison very long chapters.

 

ETA2: regarding what Windy said in her last post, yup. Also, way back in Clash Stannis promised Catelyn to return her daughters after taking King's Landing, no strings attached. And then there was his letter to Jon, when he said "I will save your sister if I can".

Edited March 11, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Haleth]

And what is worse is that the trailer the other day showed  

the Battle of the Bastards as the fan called it, with Jon at the head of Northern loyalists and wildlings. So much for time constraints, they got ridden of their hated Stannis the first chance they got to rehash the same plot point one season later with the more conventional goody goody hero. Every change they made cheapens the narrative and makes it closer to conventional fantasy clichés. Sorry but I am truly bitter about this :(

 

Hear!  Hear!

[WSmith84]

Season 6 trailer:

 

 

Well, a couple of things are really justifying my thoughts of not watching the show in that trailer. Making Asha a lesbian? Normally, I'd have no qualms about making a straight character gay (unless their sexuality was relevant to the plot or character) but making one of the two warrior women characters a lesbian? Really? Could they make this thing any more cliche? And I think that it will mainly be used to have some kind of gratuitous sex scene, rather than it being an attempt to present a more varied cast of characters. The other thing is Jaime; it still looks like they haven't got a freaking clue how to write that guy. Given that he's one of Martin's best-written characters, that's a terrible shame.

 

I really hope that that isn't Arthur Dayne with the two swords. That would just be a change that was made because they can change it, not because it was necessary or advantageous. Can't the show toss bookreaders an occasional bone? And not a random old lady saying 'the North remembers' but an actual thing we wanted to see from the books? Personally, I'm not really bothered by Mr Dayne and his super-special sword, but plenty of bookreaders are and it's such a small thing that I can't see why they wouldn't do it.

 

 

Theon's chapter:

 

 

I freaking love that chapter. I do wonder if Jon might have 'awoken' by the time Jeyne gets to the Wall and what his reaction will be. Hopefully he'll appreciate that Stannis at least kept his word (from the information he had to hand) and send Jeyne off to Braavos where she won't come under any more harm. Also, I find Stannis yelling at the ravens to be quiet to be hilarious. It's like 'Your Grace, can I ask why you're shouting at the birds?' 'They won't stop nattering!' 'Okayyyyyy....'

 

I really don't want Theon to die yet and he seems so certainly doomed that I think he'll live, at least for a while. But if he is to die soon, beheading in front of the heart tree seems about as quick and merciful as you're likely to get in this series.

 

And yeah, Stannis fans were not best pleased about Stannis' treatment in the show from the start, and even less so after this chapter.

 

 

By the way, shimpy, do you have any particular hopes/ideas for what's to come in Winds? I personally hope that the R+L stuff gets cleared up, and that Jon appreciates what Ned did for him (rather than be resentful, which some people have suggested). I'd also really like to find out that Elia was really against it, not out of love for Rhaegar, but because it's such an obviously stupid thing to do to any outside observer with a rational mind. Obviously I'd like to see Dany get to Westeros as well, but I've been saying that for every book, so.

[stillshimpy]

I'm about to quote a spoiler, so here we go.  Sorry for the box-in-box, tagapalooza we're about to undertake.  Proceed with caution in case I screw this the hell up.  

 

 

 

Probably the most interesting part to me was the younger Toland daughter's dream/prophesy of a second dance with dragons. I knew people were suggesting Aegon and Daenerys would ultimately be fighting one another and now I know where that comes from.

 

Winds of Winter

Yes, since I cling steadfastly to the notion that somewhere in this story , there lurks another dragon and since Arianne even thought about how Aegon had no dragons, I couldn't help but wonder if that wasn't part of her dream.  I know people disagree about what the wolves saw over Winterfell , but it reads like a dragon to me.  Similarly, what Tyrion saw in the sky had "pale leathery wings" so it doesn't seem like it could be Drogo, who was the only dragon out and about.

 

So there's a specific reason to that speculation on my part WoW

since the books take kind of a lot of pains to talk about the three heads of a dragon, etc.  and I know Dany hatched a clutch of three, it seems likely that those are all the dragons we're going to get in this story.  But Dany's wacko vision in the desert seemed to be a about a stone dragon and something else about shadows -- seemingly very Melisandre related -- and by my count, there have been two completely unrelated to Dany's dragons hinted at.  In the books, there seem to be three characters that are supposed to have some pretty significant Targaryen blood.  Aegon -- even though he's almost certainly a fake -- does have Targaryen blood.  Jon because....somebody launched that kid into the world and I think it's pretty obvious that Eddard Stark did not randomly and in a completely out-of-character move, screw a fisherman's daughter.  One of the wackier "oh tell me another" things from the books.  Ned just screwing some poor girl he was on a boat with was only going to happen if he's been roofied.

 

So anyway the dream Teora references made me wonder again if there are other dragons in this story, because it did seem to hint that Aegon and Daenerys would be at odds and Dance also set the stage for "A dragon can only have one rider"  ....and Dany's clearly bonded to Drogo.  We'll see, but I'm genuinely surprised that I'm the only person fixated on the "those wings were the wrong color, what the hell?"  detail.

 

Theon's material in Winds of Winter

I know he's a broken shell of a man, but I hope he does get to shuffle the mortal coil on out of this story, before he makes me remember why I really didn't care for him before Ramsay turned him into such a pathetic figure.  That was a brief chapter, but Theon and his attendant misogyny manifested more than once.  I hope he dies before I'm ready to sharpen the sword for Stannis.  

 

More from that chapter

then there's the stuff with Stannis wanting Shireen placed on the Iron Throne and extracting the promise from his knight to do so, which you know he will not keep that word and I think Stannis might suspect as much.  However, it really is such a 180 in character development from Stannis of the books that I can't really understand why the show went in the direction it ddid with him.  I get that the series just loves the Lannister plot, but great googly moogly , sometimes I suspect that Martin wanted the show to diverge as much as possible from the books past the released material and from his planned story, because some of these stories don't match up at all.  

 

Stannis wanting to return Jeyne to Jon was one of those character beats that is just missing from his show counterpart.  It was also delightful to see the freaking Karstarks, who I dislike only slightly less than the Boltons, start dying at long last.   I also found myself hoping that Theon is at least a little wrong about his belief in Ramsay's invincibility.  I understand why the show would rather have Jon face off with him, as we're a youth-obsessed world when it comes to TV and having the Battle of the Young Bastards is clearly going to make for more stirring cinematography, but in the books, I hope Stannis actually gets to do some damned damage to the POC Posse that his House Bolton and their minions.

 

ETA:

By the way, shimpy, do you have any particular hopes/ideas for what's to come in Winds? I personally hope that the R+L stuff gets cleared up, and that Jon appreciates what Ned did for him (rather than be resentful, which some people have suggested). I'd also really like to find out that Elia was really against it, not out of love for Rhaegar, but because it's such an obviously stupid thing to do to any outside observer with a rational mind. Obviously I'd like to see Dany get to Westeros as well, but I've been saying that for every book, so.

 

Sorry, didn't see this until after I posted.  I'm going to mull that  one over for a bit, if you don't mind, Windy Nights, because of course the first thing that comes to mind is my laundry list of "Kill that Motherfucker!"  ....but that's just a knee-jerk reaction.  Time to walk dogs and mull.  

Edited March 11, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

Re: Teora's dream

So anyway the dream Teora references made me wonder again if there are other dragons in this story, because it did seem to hint that Aegon and Daenerys would be at odds and Dance also set the stage for "A dragon can only have one rider"  ....and Dany's clearly bonded to Drogo.  We'll see, but I'm genuinely surprised that I'm the only person fixated on the "those wings were the wrong color, what the hell?"  detail.

 

I think a dragon can have more than one rider it's just that the first rider has to die so that another person can become the rider. It's the rider that can't jump from dragon to dragon. Dany isn't going to be able to ride Rhaegal or Viserion.

 

To me the significance of the dragon dreams is to show that this is in the blood. People with Valyrian blood seem to be the ones who have prophetic dreams in addition to dreams about dragons. I think Tyrion has already shown that he's had a prophetic dragon dream when he had the dream where he has two heads and one of the heads is crying.

[Alayne Stone]

I think when it comes to the thing Tyrion saw flying overhead having the wrong colored wings, the reason I haven't dwelled too much on it is because if it had been a dragon, I feel like more people in the story would have commented on it. As it stands it was only one sentence in the chapter and it was never touched on again. I suppose it's possible it was in fact a dragon and it was simply so high in the sky that no one could tell. As for their being other dragons in this story, it's certainly possible. We still don't fully understand what happened at Summerhall but I'm pretty sure it involved dragon's eggs and we've already seen evidence of other petrified dragon's eggs existing in this world from the last Dunk and Egg story. I just don't think any will be involved with Aegon's story. I do feel pretty confident that, although we will never actually see them, there are probably living dragons over in Asshai. They just won't be important to this story as the focus will always remain on Dany's three.

 

Arianne TWoW sample:

I think when Dany finally comes to Westeros, the "dance of dragons" will literally just be a war between two claimants to the throne with Targaryen blood (red or black dragon not withstanding). I don't think it will involve literal dragons. And sadly, I think Daenerys will end up slaughtering Aegon on account of the having dragons factor. And then there will also be whoever Aegon's consort ends up being. It might not bode well for them either.

 

The more we see of Stannis, the more I enjoy him so it will make subsequent rewatches of the show very frustrating. And again, I don't even think I will be able to sit through season 5 at all without becoming an alcoholic.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[ImpinAintEasy]

Arianne TWOW sample:

It's also possible that Euron will be a part of this dance with dragons. I think something big has to come from making us wade through all of these Ironborn chapters. So I'm assuming Euron will gain control of at least one dragon. That leaves fAegon left to deal with both Dany and Euron. Which means he's pretty much toast.

Theon TWOW sample:

I love Stannis completely dismissing Ramsay as much as the next person, but am I the only one who believes this overconfidence could be foreshadowing Stannis' demise? I think Stannis will win the initial battle, and he may be on the verge of winning the battle for Winterfell, but something unforeseen will happen to him, IMO. There seems to be a group of fans who believe Stannis will accomplish everything he sets his mind to, and I just don't believe this is what George is going for. At some point his stubbornness and absolute unwillingness to yield will be his undoing.

Season 6 speculation:

A few posters voiced their displeasure with Jon being the one to take back Winterfell from the Boltons in the show, but I would ask them what they expect him to do in the books once he's resurrected? The logical answer would seem to be exactly what he planned on doing prior to being killed, and that is lead the wildlings south to help Stannis defeat the Boltons. So I absolutely think Jon will be involved in taking Winterfell in the books too. The difference is the Vale forces may replace Stannis' forces in the show.

ETA: Another piece of info from the Arianne sample chapter that I found funny:

Aurane Waters has taken the royal fleet that Cersei commissioned and become a pirate king of the Narrow Sea. So yet another decision by Cersei has worked out brilliantly!

Edited March 12, 2016 by ImpinAintEasy

[mac123x]

Not spoiler tagging this since it's about book 5:

 

think when it comes to the thing Tyrion saw flying overhead having the wrong colored wings, the reason I haven't dwelled too much on it is because if it had been a dragon, I feel like more people in the story would have commented on it. As it stands it was only one sentence in the chapter and it was never touched on again. I suppose it's possible it was in fact a dragon and it was simply so high in the sky that no one could tell.

 

I'm pretty sure Tyrion saw a bat.  They were in the Sorrows surrounded by fog.  They couldn't see from one end of the pole-boat to the other because the fog was so dense.  Anything Tyrion saw would have had to be very close to even register.  Unless it was a hatchling, it wasn't a dragon.. 

[WindyNights]

@Imp I very much doubt Jon could come help Stannis at this point. The distance between the Wall and Winterfell is hundreds of miles. The Battle of Ice's outcome will have been decided way before he even gets there even if Jon got resurrected by chapter 1. It's more likely that Jon may not be resurrected until near the end of the book and (season 6)

D&D decided to bump it up and give Stannis' plotline to Jon.

[Terra Nova]

@Impin:

 

Truth to be told, Aurane already took the fleet and defected in last Cersei's chapter in Feast.

 

Re: Stannis: I think not even the most rabid fans of his believe he will 'win' in the end. But him taking down the Boltons? Yes, sure. People keep saying how he's stubborn and refuses to yeld, and sure, a lot of book characters seem to believe the same, but I think it's a clear example of unreliable POV: Stannis has shown to always listen to Davos who oft as not speaks against his first decisions, pardoned him for smuggling Edric away, changed his plans of attack from Winterfel to Deepwood Motte, listened to Jon and went 'begging' the Clans to join him. This to me shows he's more resilient and with common sense than most other characters.

 

Also, Jon didn't break his vows to go and help Stannis: the letter stated he was dead. Jon broke his vows in part to protect the Night's Watch against Ramsay and in part - the real reason -because the letter implied 'Arya' escaped and was still in danger of being recaptured. Jon's arc and growth brought him to renounce his dreams of being the Lord of Winterfell, his ambition for glory through political power, so to speak. It's a though choice for sure, and some part of him still regret it, as shown in his dream when he killed Robb, but he's over that. What he couldn't let go was his love for Arya. 

 

As for Winds of Winter

the Boltons are just secondary villains, they need to go down. Do you think Jon will be resurrected the first chapter of Winds? I think he'll stay 'dead' for a while, and by the time he's back, Stannis will have won Winterfell, though of course the death toll will be very high. The Wall will be come crushing down and everything will seem to be lost. At this point Stannis may or may not be forced to burn Shireen - in an apocaliptic, 'end-of-human-kind' scenario, only to realize he's not, in fact Azor Ahai. He may then decide to keep fighting and go down against the Others, or survive the was for the Dawn and become the 1000th Lord Commander of a reborn Night's Watch as an atonement for what he's done. It's a good scenario I would gladly accept.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

@Impin:

Truth to be told, Aurane already took the fleet and defected in last Cersei's chapter in Feast.

Re: Stannis: I think not even the most rabid fans of his believe he will 'win' in the end. But him taking down the Boltons? Yes, sure. People keep saying how he's stubborn and refuses to yeld, and sure, a lot of book characters seem to believe the same, but I think it's a clear example of unreliable POV: Stannis has shown to always listen to Davos who oft as not speaks against his first decisions, pardoned him for smuggling Edric away, changed his plans of attack from Winterfel to Deepwood Motte, listened to Jon and went 'begging' the Clans to join him. This to me shows he's more resilient and with common sense than most other characters.

Also, Jon didn't break his vows to go and help Stannis: the letter stated he was dead. Jon broke his vows in part to protect the Night's Watch against Ramsay and in part - the real reason -because the letter implied 'Arya' escaped and was still in danger of being recaptured. Jon's arc and growth brought him to renounce his dreams of being the Lord of Winterfell, his ambition for glory through political power, so to speak. It's a though choice for sure, and some part of him still regret it, as shown in his dream when he killed Robb, but he's over that. What he couldn't let go was his love for Arya.

As for Winds of Winter

the Boltons are just secondary villains, they need to go down. Do you think Jon will be resurrected the first chapter of Winds? I think he'll stay 'dead' for a while, and by the time he's back, Stannis will have won Winterfell, though of course the death toll will be very high. The Wall will be come crushing down and everything will seem to be lost. At this point Stannis may or may not be forced to burn Shireen - in an apocaliptic, 'end-of-human-kind' scenario, only to realize he's not, in fact Azor Ahai. He may then decide to keep fighting and go down against the Others, or survive the was for the Dawn and become the 1000th Lord Commander of a reborn Night's Watch as an atonement for what he's done. It's a good scenario I would gladly accept.

Not sure that's what that dream meant. To me, it said that Jon still very much wanted Winterfell even if it meant that he'd be climbing over his family's corpse get it

[Haleth]

 

As for Winds of Winter

the Boltons are just secondary villains, they need to go down. Do you think Jon will be resurrected the first chapter of Winds? I think he'll stay 'dead' for a while, and by the time he's back, Stannis will have won Winterfell, though of course the death toll will be very high. The Wall will be come crushing down and everything will seem to be lost. At this point Stannis may or may not be forced to burn Shireen - in an apocaliptic, 'end-of-human-kind' scenario, only to realize he's not, in fact Azor Ahai. He may then decide to keep fighting and go down against the Others, or survive the was for the Dawn and become the 1000th Lord Commander of a reborn Night's Watch as an atonement for what he's done. It's a good scenario I would gladly accept.

If Stannis takes Winterfell I think there will be a lot of grumbling from fans.  Unless Martin is going to go against expectations there is no one but Jon who should take down the Boltons and retake his home.  I agree the Boltons are secondary and ultimately not important, but it's an emotional response.  Jon needs to avenge his family. None of his siblings/cousins are in a position to do so.  I'd like to see Stannis become Lord Commander too, but 1) he probably won't survive long enough to do so; 2) he may never get over his belief that he is the rightful holder of the Iron Throne; and 3) there may be no wall to watch by the end of the story.

[Terra Nova]

Windy: of course I might be mistaken, but I feel that Jon's regrets aren't eroding him; he knows it's a road not taken, and nothing more. Compare this to Tyrion, whose desire for Casterly Rock only grew fiercer after each book, to the point that now he's indebting himself - I would say to the point of seriously compromising CR's riches - to get it. He went from japing about how his father wouldn't allow him to inherit to agree to marry a prisoner so to get 'the next best thing' and now he's just fixated on hurting Cersei and Tywin's legacy.

 

Haleth: 

But is that what the Stark children want, or what they are supposed to want? Revenge? I think that even Arya, by far now the most aggressive and vengeful of them, would only want to go back home. I think it's the notion of having a home, and to be able to go back there, what all of them are craving. Survive, and go back 'home'. Of course the first step involves committing unsavory actions, something all of them are struggling with. But even the skills they are acquiring on their way are all very useful in a perspective of rebuilding House Stark.

 

(I'm not spoilering this, I think there's no need to)

Jon doesn't need to 'avenge' his family, simply because of the surviving Starks he's been the least affected: Bran is crippled, Sansa an abused prisoner, Arya... who knows if she'll ever be able to adjust to a 'normal' life (she's the one I consider most likely a goner); Rickon is gone feral. Jon 'only' lost his 'father' and his brother. Actually, you know who has every right to rip to shreds the Boltons? Lady effing Stoneheart.

 

As for Stannis (speculations for WoW and beyond)

I am sure there's not going to be a Wall by the end, but as the name says, it's the Night's Watch, not the Wall's ;) They will save the world from this tide of glacial cold, but it doesn't mean that it won't return. So a Night's Watch may still be existing, and rightly so. In the same spirit, I hope there won't be an Iron Throne by the end of the books. Also, but this is highly hypothetical, Stannis may come to consider he's unworthy of a crown after burning Shireen - if he does it, if he survives, if there's a throne -. Whatever's gonna happen, I think the 1000th Lord Commander must be someone of importance, Martin chose such a symbolic number for a reason, I think.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

I'm pretty sure Tyrion saw a bat.  They were in the Sorrows surrounded by fog.  They couldn't see from one end of the pole-boat to the other because the fog was so dense.  Anything Tyrion saw would have had to be very close to even register.  Unless it was a hatchling, it wasn't a dragon.

 

That is possible, but I actually took it to mean Tyrion wasn't entirely sure what he saw overhead and only saw the pale, leathery wings.  For one thing, bats wings aren't pale, although saying that almost certainly means someone will say "Depends on the type of bat" ...which is true, but typically?  Bats are not pale. 

 

But I also assumed that part of the reason nothing was made of it was the fog made it impossible to figure out what he had seen. 

 

Season five

admittedly, perhaps I'm being influenced by the fact that in the show, Tyrion sees a dragon overhead

Edited March 12, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

I don't really see the point of it being a bat. A bit of dragon foreshadowing makes sense to me though especially when Tyrion seems to think about dragons in this book more than any other character save Dany. 

[stillshimpy]

Also, if you've ever been dive-bombed by a bat, you don't end up thinking about their pale leathery wings, because they're moving too quickly to really make out.  

 

Well I read Mercy's chapter also.  Winds of Winter

So Arya is a mummer called Mercy and she's just killed Raff.  That was mostly just a really uncomfortable chapter.  Did Arya understand that she was almost certainly playing her own sister n the play?  The Bloody Hand, raping "Mercy" is pretty obviously Tyrion.  I guess the Fat King was Robert and Lady Stork was a depiction of Catelyn.   I can't say I really cared for that chapter, but I am not exactly loving the Arya: Child Assassin arc all that much.  I did wonder if she'd actually been sent to kill Raff or if she just earned herself another terrible punishment at the hands of the "kindly" man.  

[OhOkayWhat]

Shimpy (Winds of Winter spoilers)

I think the whole "Arya and the Faceless men" arc will end bad for Arya, with her running away to Westeros to save her mind or/and life.

[Terra Nova]

The play in Mercy's chapter

is pretty meta and Shakespear-ish, isn't it? "As I cannot be the hero, let me be the monster, and lesson them in fear in place of love" XD Anyway, as you could see Shimpy the re-enacting of the murder of Lommy was the bit adapted in Season 4 that prompted the chapter to be put on the website, only in the series it was moved to the brawl in the tavern- in the books Arya kills Polliver there, with the psycotic breakdown and the frantic stabbing with 'How many? How many? How many?' The stabbing part of that particular murder was given to the Frey soldier she killed after the Red Wedding, together with the coin dropped on purpose that in the books was for the Bolton guard in Harrenhal. The stabbity part was re-used for Meryn Trant together with the paedo-vibes (though it messed Arya's murders evolution, as she gets calmer and less messy with each new killing).

 

But since in season 6 she seems

according to the casting calls be involved with a mummers' troupe, Mercy's chapter will be adapted again for the... third? time XD

Edited March 12, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

I think the whole "Arya and the Faceless men" arc will end bad for Arya, with her running away to Westeros to save her mind or/and life.

 

Winds of Winter

I really hope that is what happens and kind of soon, OOW, although it's not as if running away from the Faceless Men would happen without their consent:  when she was initially blinded, she knew she could have her sight back at any point, all she had to do was ask...but she knew she would then have to go for good.  I really hope Arya has some reason to choose that and fairly soon.  It's not just that the Child Assassin story is disturbing to read about -- although much of that chapter was just uncomfortable and unpleasant on a lot of levels -- Arya is most interesting, to me, as Arya of House Stark.

 

She's become this trained killed, for mystical hire for really bad reasons: she had nowhere else to go and she has even though almost exactly that.  So it isn't a calling as much as it is a measure of necessity.

 

Then not to put too fine a point on it Season Five and Trailer

the show has often indulges its very worst tendencies with Arya's arc and it's only gotten worse in recent years.  I'd love to see that end soon.  The material in the trailer with the Waif just beating the crap out of Arya doesn't suggest it is going to start toning that over-the-top treatment down any time soon.

 

ETA:  Terra,  Mercy WoW

Seemed like a hybrid between Marlowe and Shakespeare to me which was sort of a fun "Aha, I see what you did there.  Cute." touch to add to it.  

Edited March 12, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Avaleigh]

I find it difficult if not impossible to root for Arya going down the path of becoming an unfeeling serial killer. I feel like she's losing more and more of her humanity with every passing chapter and it's tough to read. With Sansa I still have feelings of hope and I can see her functioning in the world and possibly even making it a better place. I'm very unsure that Arya is going to be capable of bringing anything positive to the table unless she gets herself away from this group of serial killers. 

[ImpinAintEasy]

@Terra and Windy

 

TWOW speculation:

I'm not sure Jon can spend most of the next book being dead, even if he is warged into Ghost. If he spent weeks or even months inside Ghost's mind, by the time he is brought back he would be nothing more than a beast in a man's body. I just don't see George altering his personality that much once he returns. And frankly, if he did it would be a terrible decision, IMO. May as well have left him dead.

 

My opinion about what will happen with Stannis in the books changes with the wind. Just this morning I read that GRRM confirms on the season 5 Blu-Ray that it was always his intention for Stannis and Mel to burn Shireen. Now, I'm not sure if this is just a repeat of what D&D said after the episode initially aired or if they go into more detail. I know that for a while now I have believed that they were lying in regards to Stannis being involved, which is why I thought it was possible that Stannis dies in the battle for Winterfell. If Stannis is involved, then he clearly can't die in the battle for Winterfell, but that's not to say he wins either. I would say the opposite is more likely. He retreats back to the Wall in defeat. And just like in the show, if people know he burns his daughter, or worse, actually witness it, I don't see them continuing to follow him, much less elect him as LC of the Nights Watch. All of this is to say, we really have no clue what will happen. In this way, we are all now members of our own 'Spitball Wall'. ;)

[Terra Nova]

I searched for what you mentioned, Impin, but it appears George RR Martin is in no way involved with Season 5 Blu-Rays. It will be D&D&God-knows-who-else-from-the-show reiterating that Martin told them so and so. 

Besides, Martin was asked on his blog and he refused commenting on that possible Winds spoiler, asking why on earth should he be fine with spoiling his future books, especially regarding something he hasn't written yet? <--- I think this bit is VERY telling.

Why should he answer now, for a show he's been increasingly distancing himself from? Just two days ago said that 'unless he's forgetting something', Asha is not a (S& trailer)

lesbian

in the books.

 

So nope, I think the showrunners will repeat what they said in that disgraceful "Inside the Episode", just like Brian Cogman came back on the commentaries trying to justify again what they did to Sansa (and to defend himself after stating on twitter after the episode aired, when asked how could he do that to Sansa, that she was a 'hardened woman making a choice" - i.e. entering the bedroom with Ramsay).

 

ETA: it is also possible of course that (Winds speculation)

Mel burns Shireen on her own volition to resurrect Azor Ahai Reborn, who according to the Pink Letter croaked in Winterfell. Only, oops! It's Jon! Who came back from the dead... at the expense of a poor child. If this is the case, I can see why the show went out of his way to blame Stannis, Jon's immaculate reputation may have been tarnished-by-proxy (no more white as driven Snow XD). But again, as I said upthread, this only cheapens the narrative

Edited March 12, 2016 by Terra Nova

[OhOkayWhat]

 Shimpy (season 5 spoilers )

 

the show has often indulges its very worst tendencies with Arya's arc and it's only gotten worse in recent years.

I disagree, I feel when you say "recent years" you include also season 4.To me, that season and her whole arc with the Hound is very interesting. It has its problems, but also their story is not only about adventures and drama and even comedy. It gives us a story about redemption and love/care found in the most unlikely place and between the most unlikely persons. It is the story about how people can change, about forgiveness and the struggle of "the heart in conflict with itself" for both Sandor and Arya

 

To me, and i am talking about the show, the overall story of Arya is more than a tale about an identity crisis, it is also about the death than we find surrounding her and the darkness that is eating her from within.  In season 5, they continue with all that, even with her relationship with Sandor showing us that she (at least that is how i interpreted the scene and i can explain that) actually cared about him in the brilliant "Game of Lies" scene (Jaquen/UnJaquen telling her that she lies  to herself if she thinks she hated the Sandor), and with that, they gave us hope it is precisely Sandor, one of the persons in her kill-list, maybe the one person that helps her the most to defeat the darkness growing inside her, the same way she is the person who at the end, will help him the most to redeem himself (in my opinion,their story, at least in the show, is an unfinished story and yes, i think he is still alive and they will reunite) Their relationship is so complex and it invite us to reflect about complex themes too, so I was very glad that they did not forget about all that in season 5. Their story is not only a very popular story within the audience (as far i have seen) it is a very profound story too.

 

The Season 5 Arya arc also has other elements too. One of them is that it is not, in my opinion, an "education" arc, it is a "bad education" arc. The things she is learning are, mostly, things that are destroying her slowly and in some cases quickly. She is only "safe" in the surface (and not even that, if we think all the things that happen to her in the season), inside, she is breaking apart. She is losing her mind and also, in my opinion, she is lying to herself because she is looking at some of the things she does and thinking they are good, but we can see it is only a false thing that she tells herself: the truth is different, and that truth is that sometimes she is enjoying the darkness within her and it gives darkness power over her. To me, Arya arc in season 5 (even if it has its problems too) accomplished to show us all that within its very short screentime (not sure if the people who counted the minutes did it right, but i think it was 38 minutes).

 

As Terra Nova mentioned (season 6 spoilers)

the casting info show us than it is very probable that Arya (or her alter-ego) will interact with more people in Braavos. So, it will be more than the Waif beating Arya, i hope.

 

(Note: and look! i am using a quote box! again,thanks Shimpy for the help!....of course i still need to learn how to quote with the name of the person above the text box  :) )

Edited March 13, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[WindyNights]

@Terra and Windy

 

TWOW speculation:

My opinion about what will happen with Stannis in the books changes with the wind. Just this morning I read that GRRM confirms on the season 5 Blu-Ray that it was always his intention for Stannis and Mel to burn Shireen. Now, I'm not sure if this is just a repeat of what D&D said after the episode initially aired or if they go into more detail. I know that for a while now I have believed that they were lying in regards to Stannis being involved, which is why I thought it was possible that Stannis dies in the battle for Winterfell. If Stannis is involved, then he clearly can't die in the battle for Winterfell, but that's not to say he wins either. I would say the opposite is more likely. He retreats back to the Wall in defeat. And just like in the show, if people know he burns his daughter, or worse, actually witness it, I don't see them continuing to follow him, much less elect him as LC of the Nights Watch. All of this is to say, we really have no clue what will happen. In this way, we are all now members of our own 'Spitball Wall'. ;)

That detail about Stannis and Shireen was taken out of context. 

 

Elio Garcia (the guy who co-wrote A  World of Ice And Fire with GRRM) talks about it here:

 

(safe for anyone who's watched season 5)

The Den of Geek summary loses context. It's the episode 9 commentary, where David Nutter, Iain Glen, and Peter Dinklage are commenting. Nutter notes (as we see Shireen marching to her death) that it was the hardest scene he filmed of the two episodes, and it's Iain Glen who then asks him if David and Dan got this from GRRM. To which Nutter said he didn't know exactly, but there was "constant communication" (presumably between GRRM and D&D, and probably in the general sense rather than specifically about this scene). Dinklage then pipes up about the fact that it's not a book scene, and it's Iain, again, who speaks about the "hue and cry" but then helpfully fills in that since the scene aired GRRM had "confirmed" that Stannis and Melisandre were going to burn Shireen. And the problem, of course, is that Glen is wrong. GRRM has not made any public statement to that particular effect. And besides that, all three are clearly not really in an authoritative position -- Nutter admits he doesn't really know about that specific scene. So this really doesn't reveal anything.

Edited March 12, 2016 by WindyNights

[Terra Nova]

@OOW

As far as I understood, the box will show the name of the person only if you select the post you want to quote via the small " symbol in its lower right corner. You can select different comments at once and multiquote them :)

 

Ok, so I found this article about some interesting snippets of infos in the BLu-Rays:

 

http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/game-of-thrones/39270/game-of-thrones-season-5-what-we-learned-from-the-blu-rays

 

I will copy the most interesting down here:

 

Margaery’s season five costumes, such as her wedding dress, are less revealing than previously to signify her having achieved power and no longer needing to bare as much flesh on her way up the ladder. (Show Margaery is a slut confirmed)

 

Sansa’s costumes and travelling cloak in season five mimics Littlefinger’s in order to visually bond them and reflect the fact that Sansa sees them as a team. (Sansa is SOOOOO stoopid!)

 

As no major characters were located there, originally, there were no plans to go to Dorne in season five, until Bryan Cogman came up with the idea of sending two established characters there and pairing Jaime up with Bronn. (It's Cogman's fault! Burn the heretic! XD)

 

The change was made from the books that Cersei should decide to arm the Faith Militant so that her complicity in her downfall would become all the more apparent. (...but that's already what happens in the books!)

 

The scene of Stannis telling Shireen the story of her greyscale was included to build their relationship and make his betrayal of her all the more painful when she is sacrificed to the God of Light in episode nine. (Color me SHOCKED! Who would have guessed!)

 

Joel Fry, the actor who plays villainous Meereen aristocrat Hizdar, is best known for playing comedic roles here in the UK. (But Hizzy in the show is a sweet cinnamon roll D: I actually felt bad for him when he got stabbed)

 

Ser Barristan’s death scene in the Sons of the Harpy ambush was originally filmed for episode six but was moved to episode four. (Now this is REALLY interesting, it involved a lot of reshuffling for the Meereenese arc)

 

Brienne does 100% kill Stannis in that scene. The only reason they didn’t show him actually dying was to avoid being gratuitous. (Old news, to be honest)

 

The character of Myranda, Ramsay’s mistress, was written especially for Charlotte Hope after she impressed the showrunners on hire as a day player. Indira Varma, Jacob Anderson and Nathalie Emmanuel’s characters, Ellaria, Grey Worm and Missandei, were also expanded because of how much the showrunners liked their performances. (This explains a lot)

 

The blood leaking from Jon Snow in the season’s final shot wasn’t CGI, but a physical blood bag. Look closely at Kit Harrington’s eyes and you’ll see them dilate at the precise moment Jon dies. That’s right. He’s definitely a goner. (sheesh, it took me the last bullet point to realize the article was paying lip-service to the series XD)

 

Edited March 12, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

@Terra and Windy

 

TWOW speculation:

I'm not sure Jon can spend most of the next book being dead, even if he is warged into Ghost. If he spent weeks or even months inside Ghost's mind, by the time he is brought back he would be nothing more than a beast in a man's body. I just don't see George altering his personality that much once he returns. And frankly, if he did it would be a terrible decision, IMO. May as well have left him dead.

 

GRRM doesn't want Jon to come back the same. Death has consequences that affects your personality. This is his rule.

 

Not only will Jon come back as more wolfish but he'll come back with parts of his memories stripped like Beric did if he gets rezzed by Mel or Cat. He'll also be more focused and it's possible he won't be a POV anymore. 

 

I'd rec anyone to read this essay on Jon's future. It's really good.

 

https://offmichaelsbookshelf.wordpress.com/2016/02/24/return-of-the-white-wolf-jon-is-coming-back/

Edited March 12, 2016 by WindyNights

[Alayne Stone]

That was a really good article!

 

I think it actually hits what will happen to Jon right on the nail. I personally don't see him being "dead" for too long. Not to the extent that he will start to lose large chunks of his memory (though the notion that he will forget enough to not recognize Jeyne is a terrifying thought indeed if only because I can see it being right up Martin's alley). I think Ghost will preserve Jon's mind so that when he returns he won't be completely zombified like Catelyn, regardless of how long he is out for. But he'll be changed. I like the idea of him being more "wolfish" and kudos to the writer of that article for putting out the parallels in Jon/Dany (choosing to stay and rule in Meereen instead of returning "home"/choosing to honor his Night's Watch vows instead of returning "home" as Lord of Winterfell) at the end of ASoS and then of course the reverse for both of them at the end of ADwD. To do what he needs to do, which is theoretically get back to Winterfell, he'll have to betray his honor. Even if we are of the mind that "death" releases him from his vows, I'm not so certain Jon will be so ready to take up that belief.

 

On a somewhat random note: I just got to the section in ADwD where Tyrion and Jorah meet with the Widow in Volontis and it got me thinking. Season 5 spoilers:

This would have been a perfect one off scene to have included in the show in place of the stupid female R'hllor priest giving Tyrion the stare down/the boat scene where Jorah beats Tyrion and then reveals they are going to Dany, not Cersei. They could have easily done one scene only with Jorah and Tyrion walking past the priestess preaching and then had their sit down with the widow who could have revealed the contents of that speech (Supporters of the Red God in Volontis are for Daenerys), revealed Jorah was taking Tyrion to Dany (his jubilation in that moment is so much better in the book) and most notably, included that little tidbit about the Old Slaves of waiting for Dany. The show has really failed in suggesting just how far reaching the effects of Dany's actions in Slaver's Bay are. It would have been such an easy one off scene to film. Another wasted opportunity.

 

I used to look forward to the commentaries on the BluRays but I've found them to be progressively boring with each year. Aiden and Katie's commentary for episode 7 was gold for season 4 though. I think the only thing I will miss about not purchasing season 5's box set is the lore and videos. They always do such a good job on those, but fortunately they usually turn up on youtube almost immediately after release.

[Haleth]

I quit buying the dvds/blurays after season 3.  I knew with all the Ramsey Bolton torture porn I would never watch them.  I just didn't care enough about the show anymore.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Haleth

[stillshimpy]

Okay, Sansa's chapter from Winds of Winter

Huh.  Well that was primarily weird.  Although it was not unlike the Dunk and Egg tales in terms of showing a world that isn't at war.  I can understand the lure of wanting to world-build by telling some stories that don't highlight "this is how this world was when it hadn't gone spectacularly to shit!"  That said, Harry the Heir is just Fitzwilliam Darcy with a bunch of natural children he thinks it's appropriate to talk to a girl he's supposed to be engaged to about.  Jane Austen was actually a satirist, Darcy is actually kind of an ass, so I wonder if Martin is taking up the satire reins that have been sort of lost to time?

 

Either way that was primarily weird and I just have a difficult time believing that Sansa's true identity isn't pretty well known.  All it would take is even one person who'd been in the crowd at Ned's execution to recognize her.   Doesn't seem that Martin is rolling out that option yet, but I'm assuming he will.  I also just have a difficult time believing that Littelfinger really intends to marry Sansa off to anyone.  He had such a fixation on Cat and we already know from Cersei that apparently he wanted to marry Sansa.  We'll see what happens with that, but since he is planning on revealing who she really is at some point, I can't really figure out what his plan is for her.   All I do know is that I doubt it is what he's currently saying it is.

 

I wish they would just kill of Robert Arryn already though.  All of the descriptions of him are just creepy and unpleasant to read.  If he was older, I'd assume that Petyr was planning on marrying Sansa off to him, knocking her up himself, killing Robert off and then just continuing his long habit of boffing  the Lady of House Arryn.  As it is, I just don't know what he's planning on doing and the chapter had such an odd tone.  Must be a lot of lords in the Vale to support a tournament just for them.

[Avaleigh]

Regarding Sansa's chapter in Winds--

 

One little fan theory that I'm on board with after reading this chapter is the idea that Robert Arryn is actually Lysa and Petyr's kid. Supposedly Harry the Heir looks just like Jon Arryn did when he was young with the blue eyes and the blond hair. With all the emphasis that's put on hair and eye color in this series, I think it's interesting that Robert doesn't seem to look like Lysa or Jon. I'm not sure what Robert's eye color is.

 

The big eye roll moment for me was the massive lemon cake at a time like this.

 

[stillshimpy]

On your eye-roll moment Winds of Winter

I think the "used every lemon in the Vale" detail is one of those weird details, Petyr spends an unsettling amount of time in the books either leering at, or in that instance, doing something more easily associated with a gesture of courting than anything else, like he's trying to curry favor with Sansa.   He's so obviously up to no good with her but I can't figure out what he's doing.  I agree, I assume Robert is actually Petyr's son.  Although, the only thing that gives me pause about that, is Jon Arryn knew that Lysa had been knocked up by Petry Baelish when he married her.  So you'd think he'd have been pretty prone to noticing if she was overly fond of Petyr.  Apparently not though.

[Terra Nova]

Winds Alayne:

 

I think Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse knows who Alayne truly is: it's even lampshaded with his remark about "A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that’s not likely, is it?" The bag of dragons being the reward Cersei set for Sansa.

 

Also

this is half a joke, but Sansa wished for Joffrey to be deserted by his men at the Battle of Blackwater, and that happened; she wished for some hero to cut Slynt's head, and that happened; now she's wishing for Harry to fall from the horse and smack his head... I would be scared, if I were Mr. Bratty XD

 

ETA: But congratulations, Shimpy! You can't get more sullied than this! (well, there is A World of Ice and Fire and the PRincess and the Queen and The Rogue Prince, but those are mainly interesting for the lore) And now you can finally finish the re-read of this thread, if you still wish so ^^

Edited March 13, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Avaleigh]

TWoW--

I think Jon was just happy to have an heir at that point and didn't want to question it. I also like the idea of Jon being on the hunt for a paternity discrepancy with the Baratheons/Lannisters without realizing that there's one in his very house.

[WindyNights]

@Avaleigh Robert has blue eyes like Lysa.

@shimpy It's possible that Hoster didn't tell him who knocked her up. Even her own sister didn't know.

[Avaleigh]

@Avaleigh Robert has blue eyes like Lysa.

@shimpy It's possible that Hoster didn't tell him who knocked her up. Even her own sister didn't know.

I keep looking for a reference to Robert Arryn's eye color and the only quote I'm seeing says that he has "big eyes" but no reference to the color. Do you happen to have a quote? I looked on the asoiaf wiki and did another search and it seems like his eye color is something that has been debated before. 

[WindyNights]

I keep looking for a reference to Robert Arryn's eye color and the only quote I'm seeing says that he has "big eyes" but no reference to the color. Do you happen to have a quote? I looked on the asoiaf wiki and did another search and it seems like his eye color is something that has been debated before. 

Huh, you're right. Weird. 

 

Also there's a chance that Harry the Heir just looks like a blonde version of Jon Arryn. People can look similar without having the same hair color.

[Lady S.]

@shimpy It's possible that Hoster didn't tell him who knocked her up. Even her own sister didn't know.

I think Hoster definitely didn't tell him. If Jon Arryn was indeed a proud man who didn't relish having a ~soiled~ bride, then I don't see why he would keep giving jobs to his wife's first lover. Even if he didn't think there was anything still going on between them, I don't think he'd want to work with the guy who sullied Lysa. Also we know Hoster was a proud, old fashioned lord so I can see him not wanting to admit that his own ward betrayed him so disgracefully after all the Tullys had done for Petyr.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Lady S.

[ImpinAintEasy]

GRRM doesn't want Jon to come back the same. Death has consequences that affects your personality. This is his rule.

 

Not only will Jon come back as more wolfish but he'll come back with parts of his memories stripped like Beric did if he gets rezzed by Mel or Cat. He'll also be more focused and it's possible he won't be a POV anymore. 

 

I'd rec anyone to read this essay on Jon's future. It's really good.

 

https://offmichaelsbookshelf.wordpress.com/2016/02/24/return-of-the-white-wolf-jon-is-coming-back/

My problem isn't with Jon changing in some way(being more aggressive/single minded), but with him changing drastically. If he spends most of TWOW warged into Ghost, he wouldn't even be Jon when he returns, and that would suck. As for whether or not he would still be a POV character, I think he will because it would give George the opportunity to write from the perspective of someone who has been resurrected, something he has yet to do(unless you believe that Mel was).

[Ashara Payne]

I think Mel is probably incredibly old and likely something approaching that woman in The Shining without her glamour. Whether or not we'll ever find out, though, or see her without it, who knows? She may even look totally different, not just older. Strange thing I noticed in that bathtub scene with Selyse, when they were facing each other on profile, she really didn't look anywhere near as beautiful IMHO. Selyse almost looked better. But Tara Fitzgerald is an attractive enough woman, I remember her in The Chamomile Lawn with Jennifer Ehle, would have been nice to see them on the same show again.

[WindyNights]

My problem isn't with Jon changing in some way(being more aggressive/single minded), but with him changing drastically. If he spends most of TWOW warged into Ghost, he wouldn't even be Jon when he returns, and that would suck. As for whether or not he would still be a POV character, I think he will because it would give George the opportunity to write from the perspective of someone who has been resurrected, something he has yet to do(unless you believe that Mel was).

True but in an interview he mentioned LS not having a point of view was because she was no longer Cat. He might apply that to Jon. I mean Cat only stayed dead for 3 days so Jon has to get resurrected before that. Then again Cat went through the rotting process and went insane just before she died.

And they might throw Jon's corpse in an ice cellar in the middle of Winter so he'll have some time to be preserved.

I think Mel is probably incredibly old and likely something approaching that woman in The Shining without her glamour. Whether or not we'll ever find out, though, or see her without it, who knows? She may even look totally different, not just older. Strange thing I noticed in that bathtub scene with Selyse, when they were facing each other on profile, she really didn't look anywhere near as beautiful IMHO. Selyse almost looked better. But Tara Fitzgerald is an attractive enough woman, I remember her in The Chamomile Lawn with Jennifer Ehle, would have been nice to see them on the same show again.

I kinda expect Mel to be a hideous old crone. Stannis can't have anything nice.

His wife must be hideous, his daughter must be diseased, he has to live on a volcanic island, and nobody likes him so clearly Melisandre the hot red head that sleeps with Stannis is the odd woman out.

She has to be some sort of alien-looking creature or something.

I know how much GRRM loves to make Stannis as miserable as possible.

Edited March 14, 2016 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

I hope Martin doesn't opt to have Melisandre be some shriveled, ancient woman that everyone in the story will shrink from in disgust.  I get that it is a superficial world, that the women in it are very much aware of that, but it really is kind of an old-saw in the horror genre to have the "Oh iiiiicccccckkkkyyyy! She's practically a mummy, and you were fucking her?  Barf!"  that is kind symptom of reducing a woman's worth to her bits, and parts....but only so long as they are nubile and supple!

 

I'd rather Mel be a fire demon made flesh,  or just a Priestess who died and was brought back, hence her unwavering faith in this flame god of hers.  

 

 

 

Stannis can't have anything nice.

 

Martin's pretty good about not doing the "women in fridges" deal where a female character really only exists to further a male character's arc and you know, usual knee-jerk reaction of "Huh, yeah you know, women aren't possessions or things!"  but having said that:  I don't think that is what Selyse's appearance or Shireen's is about and I don't think that is what Mel's hinted at glamour is about either:  

 

I think Stannis is someone always striving to approximate something as he understands it, but he gets it wrong because he is missing essential emotional parts of himself.   So his wife is an odd duck, rejected by the world and mocked for her appearance.  His daughter, referred to by Val as that Dead Girl (really unnerved me) also seems to have been denied that actual spark of life, just as his wife seems to have come missing the passionate love gene.   Everything Stannis does is like a five-pointed star being stamped out by a flawed machine.  The tip of one point is always bent in a funky fashion. 

 

Then the fire priestess with her devotion to a strange god, is actually an approximation of something herself, we just don't know what yet.  But I hope it isn't going to be reduced to "Oh man, she's wheezing with antiquity! Oldness! Barf!!"  and instead that it's something else.   She's always hot, she radiates heat.  I'm going with someone inhuman or possibly someone who was killed by flames, but I hope Martin takes a pass on doing the grotesque wizened crone thing simply because then it really will reduce Mel's role in Stannis's life and bid for the throne to being about "Clearly I had to disguise myself with nubile young bits and parts!! Fuckability is all that matters!"  It would validate a lot of Cersei's wackadoodle stuff.  

 

Plus, since it's been done before in at least three books in the horror genre that I've personally read....and I haven't read horror in more than twenty years and I never particularly cared for the genre....so I think it's kind of a common one....it would be kind of unoriginal on top of the whole "Oh, kind of reductive...which fits the world...but isn't exactly a shocking turn".  

 

Or you know, short version:  I hope he doesn't go with just about the first thing that seems to occur to everyone when wondering what is going on with Mel.  

Edited March 14, 2016 by stillshimpy

[ffraeth]

I kinda expect Mel to be a hideous old crone. Stannis can't have anything nice.

 

Well, that could be seen as an inversion of the loathly lady/sovereignty goddess tropes, where a man fated to be king has sex with an ugly crone only to find out she's a beautiful, otherworldly woman who confirms his kingship (e.g. Echtra Mac nEchach/The Adventures of the Sons of Eochaid Mugmedón, featuring prehistoric Irish king Niall Noígíallach/Niall of the Nine Hostages, but the tropes are found -- together or separately -- in many other tales).

[Haleth]

I hope Martin doesn't opt to have Melisandre be some shriveled, ancient woman that everyone in the story will shrink from in disgust.  I get that it is a superficial world, that the women in it are very much aware of that, but it really is kind of an old-saw in the horror genre to have the "Oh iiiiicccccckkkkyyyy! She's practically a mummy, and you were fucking her?  Barf!"  that is kind symptom of reducing a woman's worth to her bits, and parts....but only so long as they are nubile and supple!

 

Martin may not, but reducing women to their bits and parts seems to be in the show runners' playbook.

 

Stannis: Close your eyes and think of Westeros.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Haleth

[WSmith84]

I think both Baratheon brothers received a red priest that couldn't have been better suited for them really. Robert got Thoros, a guy that liked to fight in melees with a flaming sword and have drinking contests, and Stannis got Mel, who was basically a balm for Stannis' middle child issues. I can't see the red priest that's heading to Dany with Victarion being quite so pleasing to her; although if things go the way I think they will with the Dothraki, another person telling her that she is the super-special saviour might not be unwelcome.

 

Speaking of, Mel's not terribly good at her job is she? I just reread her chapter, and the line 'I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow' really stands out. The fact that not a sliver of doubt enters her mind about who her Lord's chosen could be makes me question her intelligence. I suppose maybe she's simply tunneled so hard on Stannis that she refuses to even think of the possibility of being wrong.

 

Also interesting that Mel alone amongst the red priests and priestesses seems to think that Stannis is the saviour they are looking for. I wonder if she is perhaps a heretic among her own order, or if she perhaps belongs to a differing branch of the Red Temple.

Edited March 14, 2016 by WSmith84

[Chris24601]

Regarding Mel's true appearance, I'd actually hope for the opposite of the old crone... basically the fire version of the Others (who in the books have that sorta fae inhuman beauty going on). Essentially she's actually inhumanly beautiful and her glamour actually makes her appear merely humanly beautiful. It'd be a nice flip on the typical tropes.

Alternately I want it to be something almost totally trivial, like her complexion/ hair are not pale with red hair, but the darker skin and hair tones common in Essos, but that she's otherwise got the same appearance.

[Avaleigh]

I think Mel's appearance is a glamour because why else show us the power of the glamor with the Lord of Bones? I thought that was to make us take another look at her ruby. 

 

I admit though that I like the idea of Mel being a fire version of an Other. The red eyes seem significant to me and I've always wondered why she's the only red priest to have them. 

 

I figure the real Mel underneath the glamor probably has tattoos among other things. I agree too that she's super old. Show and actor talk.

Didn't Carice confirm that Mel is super old at least a hundred or something?

[Terra Nova]

Mel knows the importance of the trappings of power, so I'm sure she turned her hair red so to look more 'fiery'. Besides, if the male priests have tattoos on their face, maybe Mel's glamor, if she has one of course, would at least conceal it.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

I think both Baratheon brothers received a red priest that couldn't have been better suited for them really. Robert got Thoros, a guy that liked to fight in melees with a flaming sword and have drinking contests, and Stannis got Mel, who was basically a balm for Stannis' middle child issues. I can't see the red priest that's heading to Dany with Victarion being quite so pleasing to her; although if things go the way I think they will with the Dothraki, another person telling her that she is the super-special saviour might not be unwelcome.

Speaking of, Mel's not terribly good at her job is she? I just reread her chapter, and the line 'I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow' really stands out. The fact that not a sliver of doubt enters her mind about who her Lord's chosen could be makes me question her intelligence. I suppose maybe she's simply tunneled so hard on Stannis that she refuses to even think of the possibility of being wrong.

Also interesting that Mel alone amongst the red priests and priestesses seems to think that Stannis is the saviour they are looking for. I wonder if she is perhaps a heretic among her own order, or if she perhaps belongs to a differing branch of the Red Temple.

Moquorro is super good at ingratiating himself with others. That's why Victarion likes him so much and even Tyrion feels flattered by him in a good way.

Moquorro has a silver tongue. I wouldn't be surprised if Daenerys converts to the Red God or if she pulls a Stannis and starts using R'hllor for her own ends.

[Avaleigh]

Moqorro seems like he knows more than any other red priest. I really want him in a room with both Dany and Mel. 

 

Moqorro is the main reason I liked Victarion's chapter. Whatever he did with Victarion's arm was freaky and the way that the monkeys immediately abandoned ship when nothing could get them to leave before was weird. There's also a kind of shift in the PoV of the chapter that made me think that Victarion has been altered in some way apart from the arm. 

[Ashara Payne]

There's a theory that she could be the daughter of Brynden Rivers and Shiera Seastar, two of Aegon IV's legitimised bastards. I think it was Radio Westeros who suggested this. Plausible IMHO.