Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[stillshimpy]

What's made entirely out of all things awesome on the sliding scale of anti-villains is that the Gorgs from Fraggle Rock are used as an example.  

 

Still giggling :-) 

[ambi76]

However, if Tyrion is truly a villain AND he does end up as Dany's "right hand man" so to speak, I guess I have to reconsider some people's speculation that she too might end up being a villain in this story.

 

Eh, not if he turns out to be the villain to Dany (i.e. betrays her in the end), which is my theory at least.

 

And what makes Tyrion raping that slave so disgusting to me is, that he even stops and contemplates how awful he/it is (might as well fuck a corpse etc.) and then does it again*, because "Screw it, my dick is not satisfied yet and I payed good coin". Blergh.

 

*Seriously: Fucking a shaking, vomiting girl that has beating marks all over her body is scratching Ramsay-level a tiny little bit, no? Made worse because, no, he isn't some psycho numbnuts like that or Vic/Euron (yet?).

Edited January 8, 2016 by ambi76

[WindyNights]

Here are the quotes I mentioned.

This is what GRRM said about him as of ASOS:" Even the villains... Certainly I have my favourites. Tyrion Lannister is my favourite. He is the grayest of the gray. In every conventional sense, he is on the wrong side but you have to agree with some of the things he is doing while loathing others"

Other stuff he's said:

Interviewer: Do you have a favorite character?

George RR Martin: I’ve got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He’s the villain of course, but hey, there’s nothing like a good villain.

@ambi You may be right about Tyrion betraying Daenerys but to me, it's more likely he'll use her to get wha he wants.

"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and crow, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them."

Edited January 9, 2016 by WindyNights

[Alayne Stone]

I see the main players in this story as being varying shades of grey that slide along both the darker and lighter scales according to where they are at in their storylines. Jaime is sliding more towards the "white" scale but the good he has done does not wash out the bad. Tyrion is sliding the other way but I would not consider him an outright villain. I think right now we are seeing the absolute worst of him.

 

And of course I think his brothel scene is quite possibly the lowest of lows for him. From here I do believe he is beginning his slow, arduous crawl back in the other direction.

 

I had never fully prescribed to the whole "they are white washing Tyrion" criticism for the show until this scene. At this point show Tyrion is fast heading in the same direction as show Jaime and show Cersei, similar to their book counterparts in name only. Which is a shame because if Breaking Bad taught us anything it's that watching the so called hero turn bad is compelling television. Dinklage could have easily pulled it all off and maybe even justified that Emmy win he got for this season. Season 5 spoilers:

And let's not even get into the utter absurdity of a sex slave offering free sex in an environment where those actions would have probably gotten her killed. Because there's already pages written on the subject and all more eloquent than anything I could ever come up with.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[nksarmi]

I honestly think Peter D could have acted the heck out of book Tyrion's material, but I think precisely because we lost so many other interesting grey or good characters in season five that D&D made a conscious decision to keep him in a pure white hat.  I think it's for similar reasons that they didn't grey up Jon one single bit either in season five.

 

By making a decision to have almost every single character that people cheer for on the show in danger at the end of season five - I think they knew they were going to get a lot of negative responses (particularly with season five spoiler:

them burning Shireen and killing characters that are still alive in the books

).  So I think they decided to keep Tyrion as a bright spot of the show (and frankly, we should probably be glad that while Jamie is not on his book arc, he also wasn't muddied up more so than his book counterpart).

 

I think D&D know we need characters to cheer for on some level and as many have mentioned - the bad guys seem to be winning it all on the show.  So greying Tyrion up and having him meet Dany probably wouldn't help that feeling of "the bad guys always win" along very well.  Plus - rather they meant it or not - some of their decisions with Dany on the show have led people to think she's going down the Mad King path so if she's meant to be the conquering hero someday - a "white hat" Tyrion can only help that along.  While I understand why people don't like the changes to his character - given the loss of the awesomeness of Doran's plotting, the Jon C/(f)Aegon story, and some other things that Shimpy hasn't gotten to yet - I understand their choice.

[WindyNights]

@nksarmi I mean they portrayed Jaime as an outright rapist and as a kinslayer on the show. Like seriously, Book Tywin would hamstring Jaime if he killed his own cousin.

@Alaynr Stone What about the part where he kills Shae out of self-defense rather than initiating her murder because he felt humiliated by her.

[Alayne Stone]

It certainly took a lot of steam out of that scene for me, but they still went through with Tyrion killing her. Not saying it was a good scene by any stretch of the imagination but I think I was far more infuriated by the omission of Tysha than I was by the manner in which Shae was killed. I was just happy to see her go at that point.

[Lady S.]

It certainly took a lot of steam out of that scene for me, but they still went through with Tyrion killing her. Not saying it was a good scene by any stretch of the imagination but I think I was far more infuriated by the omission of Tysha than I was by the manner in which Shae was killed. I was just happy to see her go at that point.

Yeah, and Shae's book murder is a result of the Tysha reveal. That was the start of Tyrion's downward spiral when he snapped and stopped giving a fuck about not being a monster, which would not have happened if he hadn't suddenly felt he was irredeemable after all.

 

I've always liked the idea of Tyrion being one of Dany's betrayals, I think he definitely doesn't really want Jaime dead the same way he does Cersei, which could lead to some second thoughts.

[Haleth]

It certainly gives credence to Cersei's belief that Tyrion is the valonquar.  But as we all know Cersei is always wrong about everything.  

Tyrion has hit his low point but I believe he begins to find himself again

once he meets Penny.  She is like the angel on his shoulder urging him to do right.  Which is why I'm annoyed she isn't on the show.  I guess by muddying his motives and cleaning up his behavior the show writers don't feel he needs an innocent girl to help bring him back.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Haleth

[Chris24601]

I honestly think Peter D could have acted the heck out of book Tyrion's material, but I think precisely because we lost so many other interesting grey or good characters in season five that D&D made a conscious decision to keep him in a pure white hat.  I think it's for similar reasons that they didn't grey up Jon one single bit either in season five.

I definitely think there is something to this analysis.

 

Its also worth bearing in mind that at the time the decisions for season five were made D&D also thought the show would be ending with season seven... meaning they would have to squeeze the entire story of whatever they still needed to cover from the entirety of "The Winds of Winter" and "A Dream of Spring" into just 20 more episodes.

 

With that in mind it may not be so much that some of the stories they chose to cut weren't important to the resolution... its that they weren't important ENOUGH to the resolution and D&D were willing to write around the absence of newer characters in favor of keeping the story focused more on "the original cast" so to speak.

 

With each volume larger than entire The Lord of the Rings (the film version of which has about the same running time as a season of GoT and also had to leave a number of things out) GRRM can afford to cover way more subplots than the television series could ever hope to so it makes sense to stick to the main cast from past seasons that general audiences have been following instead of cutting those roles to next to nothing and introducing brand new characters to the mix unless there's no way to write around it.

 

Similarly, only once HBO came out and said "we're willing to do as many as ten seasons" are we now getting work that season six will be revisiting some elements from AFFC/ADWD that were previously skipped over... because that's not 20 episodes left... that's 30, 40 or even 50 episodes left... and that means that some characters may end up veering back closer to their book incarnations now that there's some time to show that journey.

[Delta1212]

HBO has said for years that they'd let the show keep going basically as long as they wanted. 7 seasons was D&D's decision, not HBO's, and it wasn't a very firm decision, either. 70 hours was just how they generally described the series when talking about their vision for it as a whole.

This wasn't a case of HBO telling them they could have more seasons. It was them deciding they needed more seasons, and we don't know precisely when they came to that conclusion because the 7 season thing was never an official number to begin with.

[WSmith84]

"The Night's Watch takes no part in the affairs of the Seven Kingdoms..."  except here's a glaring example of Jon doing just that, and you can tell he's struggling with it.  He feeds and clothes Stannis's troops, but he rationalizes that as the right thing to do since Stannis helped against the wildlings, and besides he has more troops and could just take the food anyway.  He's advising Stannis, but he justifies it by telling himself "words are not swords".  Then he gives Stannis guides to show him how to reach the Mountain Clans.  Yeah, Jon, you just torched your oath. 

 

To be fair, the neutrality part is not actually part of the oaths themselves, but more of a tradition. And neutrality is pretty hard to maintain when both sides of a war are trying to get you to forget your neutrality, so long as you choose their side. There was the Lannisters on one side refusing men unless the NW chose their preferred candidate for LC, and Stannis demanding all sorts of stuff on the other. Neutrality isn't really a feasible option when two stronger sides want you to side with them. But yes, the show very much degrayed Jon's actions so that the whole 'for the Watch' stuff felt ridiculous.

[nksarmi]

I have said it else ware and I feel fairly safe saying it here - I really do hope that D&D/HBO come to a firm decision soon on how many seasons they are going to spend telling THIS story.  And honestly, I rather hope it's only eight.  I think they needed to go past seven to wrap things up better, but I don't want the story to go on much longer. 

 

At least - to me - this story was never written to feel like "oh there's all this courtly stuff going on and mystery and intrigue" and we can watch season after soap opery season to see who tops who and what new twist is coming next, yada, yada, yada.  Because no matter how much D&D have tried to downplay it, there is still this magical thread and threat looming in the background.  The Walkers ARE coming, Dragons HAVE been reborn, magic IS real, and we need a bloody climax and resolution already.  You can only keep these things looming for so long before we all just get bored and stop caring.  It's a major criticism of GRRM and how the books have become so bogged down and I imagine the show will get the same critique as well if they just go on and on without bringing everything to bear.

 

And if you have a predetermined end (war with the White Walkers, someone winning the Iron Throne, etc...) it seems to me that you have to prepare for that and I would think that requires a plan for a set number of episodes and a finale.  I could be wrong, but I think the show would benefit a lot if they just say 8 seasons and then we are done.

 

Plus - no matter how much money they get paid - eventually these actors are going to get busier and busier as they attempt to secure their future and take advantage of the doors the show has opened for them.  If they lose a major character - it could seriously hurt the show.  And while one would think they have all the key actors contacted for as long as they need them - the whole thing with Kit/Jon after season five made me wonder about that. 

[Dev F]

I honestly think Peter D could have acted the heck out of book Tyrion's material, but I think precisely because we lost so many other interesting grey or good characters in season five that D&D made a conscious decision to keep him in a pure white hat.

 

Perhaps, but I don't think we should discount a simpler possibility: the showrunners realized that the original storyline would make no sense given the earlier changes to the character. In the books, Tyrion discovers at the end of Storm that his sexuality has been deeply fucked since his family lied to him about Tysha when he was a kid. It got him so twisted around that he couldn't tell the difference between genuine love and sexual commodification, and now that he's finally realized it, he's lashing out with women largely because he feels like such a fool for thinking any of them except Tysha ever cared about him.

 

But in the show, that kind of resentment doesn't make sense, for the same reason I argued that the Tysha reveal no longer makes sense -- because show!Tyrion's sexuality is not fucked in the same way. He's still capable of experiencing true love and differentiating it from his typical dalliances with whores, because that's exactly what he does with Shae. In the show, Tyrion's tragedy is something altogether different: he's so obsessed with proving himself worthy of his disdainful father that he insists on staying in King's Landing and matching wits with people who hate him instead of running off with the woman who genuinely loves him.

 

So my problem with Tyrion's arc in season 5 is that it's not different enough from the book storyline. What show!Tyrion should be struggling to come to terms with is how much he's fucked up his life by desperately seeking the approval of the dad who hated him, and by matching his mind against those of people far more devious than he. That could lead in a number of directions, from abandoning the pursuit of the mind for the baser pleasures his father always accused him of caring too much about, to committing himself to become more shrewd and more devious and undoing everything his father tried to build over his dead body.

 

Instead, Tyrion just wallows in generic self-pity for most of the season, moving through some ghostly half-rendition of his Dance storyline, with nothing new or insightful to replace the specific character details from the book that no longer made sense and had to be removed.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Dev F

[nksarmi]

Perhaps, but I don't think we should discount a simpler possibility: the showrunners realized that the original storyline would make no sense given the earlier changes to the character. In the books, Tyrion discovers at the end of Storm that his sexuality has been deeply fucked since his family lied to him about Tysha when he was a kid. It got him so twisted around that he couldn't tell the difference between genuine love and sexual commodification, and now that he's finally realized it, he's lashing out with women largely because he feels like such a fool for thinking any of them except Tysha ever cared about him.

 

But in the show, that kind of resentment doesn't make sense, for the same reason I argued that the Tysha reveal no longer makes sense -- because show!Tyrion's sexuality is not fucked in the same way. He's still capable of experiencing true love and differentiating it from his typical dalliances with whores, because that's exactly what he does with Shae. In the show, Tyrion's tragedy is something altogether different: he's so obsessed with proving himself worthy of his disdainful father that he insists on staying in King's Landing and matching wits with people who hate him instead of running off with the woman who genuinely loves him.

 

So my problem with Tyrion's arc in season 5 is that it's not different enough from the book storyline. What show!Tyrion should be struggling to come to terms with is how much he's fucked up his life by desperately seeking the approval of the dad who hated him, and by matching his mind against those of people far more devious than he. That could lead in a number of directions, from abandoning the pursuit of the mind for the baser pleasures his father always accused him of caring too much about, to committing himself to become more shrewd and more devious and unending everything his father tried to build over his dead body.

 

Instead, Tyrion just wallows in generic self-pity for most of the season, moving through some ghostly half-rendition of his Dance storyline, with nothing new or insightful to replace the specific character details from the book that no longer made sense and had to be removed.

 

You must be right about his season five arc because Shimpy described him being in the show almost exactly how I feel about him in the books.  I just thought they truncated his wallowing, self-pity rather well and showed him as being someone who was surviving by hit wits but had lost all purpose until he meets a certain young lady and everything changes.  To me, he is very different from his book counterpart but I suppose everything is in the eye of the beholder and all that.

[WSmith84]

That's one of my greatest frustrations with the show: the refusal to stick with their changes when the original plot no longer makes sense. I really don't mind the show making changes or deviating, but when they have to drag characters or plots back on course, it's both obvious and annoying.

[stillshimpy]

Oh jeez, so it's Jon Connington who has the Grey Scale and is turning to stone.  I actually did not see that one coming.  

 

Although it's obvious he believes F-Aegon to be real, it's also obvious why Varys and Illyrio knew he'd be easy to convince of exactly that and of devoting his life to putting F-Aegon on the throne:  Connington was in love with Rhaegar.  Apparently also something of a virus back in the day, since everyone and their sister seemed to fall head over heels for the man.  

 

One thing I consistently like is how Martin actually portrays gay men:  Connington is a fierce warrior, motivated by love (yeah, the Silver Prince thing makes that fairly obvious) and loyal to the end.  Very loyal apparently, as his only wish is to install F-Aegon on the Throne because he truly bought Illyrio's and Varys' story.  

 

I'm assuming that Septa Lemore is most likely Ashara Dayne, right?  She had a child, so whether or not her pregnancy was just blamed on Ned Stark, or she's really the mother of Ned's bastard child -- be it Jon or someone else -- and since Arthur Dayne died in the Tower of Joy as part of the Kingsguard and at Ned's hands, she could believe in Young Griff's/F-Aegon's claim because her family died trying to protect the Targaryen claim.  

 

That's assuming she didn't truly fling herself off of any cliffs, but like Jon Connington letting people believe he had died of drink and despair, she lets that be her cover story, so that she can devote herself to installing the person she believes to the be the Targ heir on the Throne.  Or doesn't, but is willing to go along with it all because....see Arthur Dayne's dead body as to why she would have gone along with putting Dany on the Throne.  

 

Or if that's not right, she's the mother of some bastard we've met in this piece: Jon, Gendry, or Ramsay.  She's educated, so she was high born, whoever she was before she decided to pretend to be part of the Shy Maiden crew.  

 

But poor Connington.  He really believes that is Aegon and for a moment I wondered if he was...until it was revealed that Illyrio and Varys basically fetched him from the Golden Company and he wouldn't go along with a ruse, so he had to be fooled by it too.   

 

What a sad story and one of the things that pretty much spells out that Faegon is a fake.  That's too honorable a cause for all these people to set out on in this particular story, if you ask me.  Time will tell, I guess. 

 

But I was not in the least prepared for that last revelation, so it was a case of me feeling very smart ....right up until the "Ooooooh shit, should have figured that one out." moment. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by stillshimpy

[WSmith84]

Septa Lemore being Ashara Dayne is a very common theory. I don't buy it personally, because Ashara had purple eyes (mentioned in the Tourney of Harrenhal story, I believe) and I feel that Tyrion would have noticed that. It would feel a little cheap for GRRM to hide a clue that big. She could be disguising her eye colour, I suppose, in the same way that FAegon did, but GRRM usually gives you something to work with.

 

There's a huge fan of Jon Connington on westeros.org who was initially disappointed that he wasn't going to be on Game of Thrones, but she quicky changed her tune after seeing season 5 and Loras' portrayal. No doubt he'd have spent all his time worrying about FAegon's fabric choices, or some such nonsense.

[Terra Nova]

Most fan debunk Lemore/Ashara because the latter had violet eyes, a feature Tyrion would have easily remarked upon.

She seems to be of noble birth, though, since in his thoughts Connington calls her 'Lady Lemore'.

 

Other theories involve Ashara in the Aegon plot by stating that the boy switched with Aegon was her son: she was attending Princess Elia, so the baby was ready and near, and after the skull-bashing she killed herself out of grief. I think there's a timeline issue with this one, though. Ashara's baby should be too young to pass for a good Aegon double, but of course, in the chaos of the sack and with the Mountain not being too observant, he could still be good enough.

 

ETA: ninja'd like a n00b ^^'

 

ETA2: actually, the most interesting part of the chapter for me is getting to learn what the Golden Company was told: we know the 50k Dothraki are an outright lie, since it would amount to the whole khalasar, and even Viserys was told he would have gotten far fewer.

Second, the GC knowing about Aegon may not automatically mean he's a Blackfyre: in this case that's something Illyrio probably told them, just to convince them to go along: 'yeah, the boy is totally a Blackfyre, trust me, but we'll say he's a Targ and get our revenge, ahr ahr ahr!'

One thing is certain: Illyrio and Varys are smart enough to tell different people what they want to hear, and only what's strictly necessary for the plan to keep going. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Terra Nova

[nksarmi]

Hmmm I never theorized as to who Lady Lemore was - just that there was more to her story.  I almost wish Tyrion had stayed with Jon C. and (f)Aegon because between them and Dany/Meereen - I think their's will be the more interesting tale even without dragons.

 

I am so glad you now know that Jon C is the one with greyscale because now I can ask about how contagious this is supposed to be.....it seems like people think Tyrion could be exposed but Jon C does not seem like the kind of man who would go around spreading a plague.  So is it highly contagious or do you have to be exposed to the actual spot of greyscale?  I was wondering this in regards to how the show (season five)

had Jorah going around touching everyone when the Harpy's attacked.  I couldn't decide if him clasping Dany's hand was suppose to mean she exposed or not.

 

ETA: I had also forgotten that Jon C was in love with Rhaegar.  Now I really can't decide if it was good or bad that he was dropped from the show.  Because what they have done with Loras is truly awful.

Edited January 9, 2016 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

Does Tyrion actually note her eye color?  I didn't think he had at all, but an easy enough explanation for that is...he was ogling her the first time she was described.  So I wouldn't expect him to necessarily note her eyes, when he was cataloguing her body with ye olde male gaze.   

 

I could be wrong, but I didn't think he mentioned her eye color at all, one way or the other.  

 

It remains entirely possible she is someone else entirely, but everybody there would need a personal stake in the plan, or at least, they would think they had one.  Plus, Arthur Dayne gets mentioned by Connington, which seemed an invitation to remember "Okay, interesting, what does he have to do with this endeavor?"  

[WindyNights]

@shimpy Correct. Tyrion does a lot of staring at her body but not her eyes so we don't know what color they are.

[WSmith84]

He doesn't mention the colour, but I feel that purple eyes are definitely noteworthy enough to mention, particularly when you have someone else on board with purple eyes whose paternity and maternity you doubt. I feel that Tyrion would have mentioned that it was a big coincidence to have two purple eyed people on board who claimed not to be related.

[Terra Nova]

Especially considered how Tyrion teases multiple times Aegon about his true identity. "You have nice features, for being dead... but not so uncommon, since you already have a violet-eyed lady in tow. You will need more to woo the Seven Kingdoms" *Connington smashes Tyrion's face*

 

I think (not for Shimpy)

that the mention about Dayne is to subtly remember how he was Rhaegar's closest friend, and that in the end Jon Connington is a poor fool in love who convinced himself he was somehow special and dear to the Prince, much more than he actually was (see later chapters)

[John Potts]

Speaking as somebody who possesses a male gaze, I'd say he'd probably make SOME comment about her eyes - even if it were on the lines of "Nice rack, great ass... weird eyes though" (unless you think he completely reduces women to ONLY their sexual characteristics). I'd hope I'm never quite that... reductive about anyone (and I don't think Tyrion is, either).

[WindyNights]

Speaking as somebody who possesses a male gaze, I'd say he'd probably make SOME comment about her eyes - even if it were on the lines of "Nice rack, great ass... weird eyes though" (unless you think he completely reduces women to ONLY their sexual characteristics). I'd hope I'm never quite that... reductive about anyone (and I don't think Tyrion is, either).

He kinda is a lot of the time. I mean he's pretty misogynistic.

[stillshimpy]

Well, but here's the thing: He doesn't note her eye color.  That doesn't mean anything in any direction.  She could still have violet eyes and that could also be part of what makes him start to suspect something about Griff, because Tyrion does when he sits down to play that Westerosi Chess game.  He's out to win something.  

 

Now admittedly, it didn't occur to me, at all that she could be Ashara Dayne, at all, until Arthur Dayne got name dropped in Griff's/Connington's chapter.  

 

But the absence of any note of her eye color doesn't mean that her eye color wasn't already noted by Tyrion...because when he's cataloguing her parts, right down to her stretch marks, that's far from the first time he's seen her.   The other thing I'd say is that Elizabeth Taylor is famous for having violet eyes, and I'm here to tell you, that one is in the eye of the beholder.  I'll take it all back if he someday mentions her green, hazel or brown eyes, but anything short of that and I'll just wait and see there too. 

 

I don't know, if there had been a different eye color mentioned then I'd concede the point, but eyes weren't mentioned...and by the way, Tyrion doesn't think F-Aegon is the real deal.  When Aegon-Faegon-Young Griff kicks over the chess board and orders Tyrion to pick it up, Tyrion thinks that he might just have some Targaryen in him after all...which would indicate that he doubted the story.  

 

However, I'm not wedded to that notion, just that Septa Lemore kind of needs to be someone who makes sense for being part of that crew.  Arthur Dayne's sister would make sense.  Her "wee, body's are for pleasure" thing would also kind of fit with someone who got it on without benefit of marriage, which is the suggestion.  

 

But I don't think she could be the baby swap baby's mother, because she is educated and also?  I have a son, I would not be well disposed towards any for whom he died.  So that strikes me as being the least likely possibility.   I'm also assuming that Martin will eventually get around to revealing who she is at some point, but it's clear he doesn't do so by the end of dance....since there are apparently a variety of fan theories as to who she is.  

Edited January 9, 2016 by stillshimpy

[ImpinAintEasy]

Connington should know Ashara Dayne, right? He was Hand of the King while Arthur Dayne served in the KG. Ashara seems to have been well known by most of the nobility. Yet he thinks of Lemore as simply Lemore in his thoughts. I certainly hope she isn't Ashara Dayne, as the number of characters who were thought dead only to still be alive is starting to get out of hand. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by ImpinAintEasy

[WindyNights]

Jon Connington was only Hand of the King for a very short time.

But yes, he knows Ashara.

From the Knight of the Laughing Tree story:

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf...but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

[stillshimpy]

I certainly hope she isn't Ashara Dayne, as the number of characters who were thought dead only to still be alive is starting to get out of hand.

 

Fair point, that.  

 

Okay so through another Quentyn chapter and it was interesting to find out how they managed to get passage.  Fun note there.  The Tattered Prince...I really feel like he was mentioned in Tyrion's chapter with Illyrio too, but I could just be imagining that one.  I know the Prince of Pentos thing (to be sacrificed the moment anything went wrong) sounded like a terrible gig , so maybe that's why I think I read about one of the princes taking to his heel and getting the frell out of Dodge.  

 

Interesting development, being ordered to switch sides.  Not really sure I trust it entirely, but still another thing to wait and see on.  I steeled myself for some truly terrifying description of whatever makes Pretty Merris so horrifying and its still in the offing.  

 

Then the needle scratch of "Oh fuck...an Iron Islanders chapter next?" which I guess I had thought maybe I wouldn't be subjected to them this book.  No such luck, apparently. 

[WindyNights]

All I have to say about half the iron island chapters this book is

"MOOOOOOONKEEEEEEYS!"

Edited January 9, 2016 by WindyNights

[stillshimpy]

George R. R. Martin is going to make me become celibate at some point, because his sex scenes make sex just that appealing.  I'd worry that my husband might be upset by this looming vow, but I have a remedy close to hand:  I'll make him read the books too and we'll leave pleasantly together, chaste and grateful for it.  Ugh. 

 

But that chapter was primarily interesting.  Clearly Stannis won the Mountain Clans to his side and Asha is now likely a prisoner vs. a dead woman. 

 

And that's pretty much all I have to say about that for the moment.  

Edited January 9, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Brn2bwild]

IMO, most of the Iron Islands chapters in this book are much more tolerable than in AFFC.

[Dev F]

But I don't think she could be the baby swap baby's mother, because she is educated and also?  I have a son, I would not be well disposed towards any for whom he died.  So that strikes me as being the least likely possibility.

If Aegon is fake, it's also possible that Lemore is Young Griff's real mother. She wouldn't be able to reveal her relationship to him or anyone else without blowing his claim to the throne, but playing his septa attendant would allow her to remain in his life in some nonsuspicious way.

On the other hand, the fact that she seems both well-bred and unchaste makes some readers suspect that she's Illyrio's supposedly deceased wife Serra, whom he brought home from a high-class brothel. And then there's the theory that she's both Illyrio's wife and Young Griff's mother.

[Alayne Stone]

I have never really prescribed to the Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne theory either, but it's one of the more popular ones. Stretch marks, a hint at noble birth and a chance mention of Arthur Dayne by someone who would have been around him all the time are not enough evidence for me. I feel like Tyrion would have noticed the eye color too. Yes, he can be pretty misogynistic but he's also very astute. I feel like in all the time he spent in their company he would have eventually noticed.

But ... who knows? It's never revealed one way or another so I suppose she could be. But I personally prefer the haunting memory she impressed on certain people.

You got to the part where Stannis captures Asha? Ohhhhhhh. Yessssss.

[Autarch]

 

 

It was in the show

Oberyn:

Who gave you the order!

Say her name!

You raped her! You murdered her! You killed her children.

Say it. Say her name. Say it!

The Mountain knocks Oberyn to the ground and smashes Oberyn's teeth in

The Mountain:

Elia Martell.

I killed her children. Then I raped her. Then I smashed her head in like this!

(the Mountain then crushes Oberyn's skull)

Ellaria Sand screaming

Children. Not child. As I said, I don't think the show bothered to make the distinction though.

 

The things they said to each other didn't start either of them on the path they were on, but I think they were something of a point of no return for each. Jaime revealing the truth about Tysha utterly shatters Tyrion and sends him hurtling headlong down that rather dark path.

 

Another important point before this is the betrayal Tyrion felt during his trial. That was his first snapping point:

 

"'Nothing but this: I did not do it. Yet now I wish I had." He turned to face the hall, that sea of pale faces. "I wish I had enough poison for you all. You make me sorry that I am not the monster you would have me be, yet there it is.'"

 

Given the focus in Feast and Dance on characters wearing the mask, Tyrion's arc, since the end of Storm, involves him becoming the imp in truth. 

But I think his arc in Dance shows that he's not able to fully commit. However, I expect Tyrion will still be involved in all kinds of mischief in Winds, though not outright devilry.

[WindyNights]

I will say that Qarl the Maid seems a pretty nice guy for an iron born so at least GRRM is averting "all girls like bad boys" with Asha.

Also Tris Botley is like the Westerosi version of "Nice Guy".

[stillshimpy]

There's one more thing: A smart fantasy author won't ever answer everything, because fan debates breed longevity :-) So that also occurred to me: Yeah, good luck figuring her out. Also, be prepared to never have a definitive answer

Dev, that occurred to me when she was introduced, but she doesn't seem to react to him like she's his mother. Admittedly, since he clearly believes he is actually Aegon, I guess that could be the bargain she made to secure him an elevated place in the world. Of course, in Quentyn's chapter it talks about how good ruses have an element of truth in them.

Also, apparently Martin is a Monty Python fan.

[WindyNights]

Children. Not child. As I said, I don't think the show bothered to make the distinction though.

Another important point before this is the betrayal Tyrion felt during his trial. That was his first snapping point:

"'Nothing but this: I did not do it. Yet now I wish I had." He turned to face the hall, that sea of pale faces. "I wish I had enough poison for you all. You make me sorry that I am not the monster you would have me be, yet there it is.'"

Given the focus in Feast and Dance on characters wearing the mask, Tyrion's arc, since the end of Storm, involves him becoming the imp in truth.

But I think his arc in Dance shows that he's not able to fully commit. However, I expect Tyrion will still be involved in all kinds of mischief in Winds, though not outright devilry.

I'm not so sure about that.

His new (not for shimpy]

TWOW chapter nearly has him kill Penny. And there's plenty of foreshadowing in ADWD that he's going to kill her which will get him to a whole level of evil. Tyrion's arc in ADWD isn't really moral rehabilitation but deciding that he wants to live after all. So says Martin.

[Autarch]

One thing that makes me think Lemore is Ashara

In one of Barristan's chapters, he mentions that Ashara could've easily passed for Dany's mother. It's one of those seemingly random bits of info that makes me think it's another one of Martin's oblique hints. Given how Aegon looks, having that resemblance would've been a major asset to have in carrying out that type of ruse for so long. We already have Griff outright posing as his father, and Ashara's looks would be suggestive enough to deflect any doubt in someone's mind without them even having asked.

Plus I still like the idea of the of real Targ heir playing Stark's bastard and

possibly Ned or Brandon's bastard with Ashara, if that's whose child she had, playing the role of the Targ heir.

[WindyNights]

@Autarch I really like that idea too but Ashara Dayne has dark hair.

[Haleth]

TWOW chapter nearly has him kill Penny. And there's plenty of foreshadowing in ADWD that he's going to kill her which will get him to a whole level of evil.

Well, she does try to kill him first. I dunno. I think he feels responsible for her. I hope she finds a place in Dany's court.

As for Lemore, sometimes stretch marks are just stretch marks. I would be surprised if we learn anything more about her. She's too casual to be a high born Westerosi lady, although I do like Autarch's idea under the spoiler tag.

[Autarch]

@Autarch I really like that idea too but Ashara Dayne has dark hair.

So does Lemore, but it's not like Dayne's aren't known to favor the lighter coloring as well. Plus his hair isn't that important, since I'm assuming they kept it dyed. It was more the overall resemblance

which Barristan, regardless of hair coloring, suggests is very close to a Targ likeness.

[Andeleisha]

I've always suspected that Lemore is Tyene Sand's mother -- all we know about her is that she was a septa. Tyene has blonde hair and blue eyes. Doran could have sent Lemore to Illyrio, but I don't think Illyrio has told Doran Aegon's alive. (Which is probably another reason why he is fake.)

[WindyNights]

In (not for shimpy)

TWOW, Doran gets news of Aegon and doesn't believe it's actually him.

Lemore also has dark hair unlike Tyene Sand and we don't know her eye color. Also Tyene just recently visited her mother who is living in the Reach. I doubt Lemore uses Littlefinger's jet pack.

[John Potts]

I still hope that Ashara Dayne is Jon Snow's mother (by Eddard) because everyone is so certain R+L=J is true and it would be a case of GRRM deceiving by telling the truth (I doubt it, but I can always hope).

When it comes to Tyrion

I'm betting he's on a strictly downward path, until he ends up BECOMING his father, by being the ruthless bastard that is the power behind the throne (to Danny? Jon?). He's already taken a few steps down that path by losing the woman he loved and killing his father. It would be fitting for the Tywin's despised son to be the one who ended up stepping into his role.

[stillshimpy]

Tyrion's most recent chapter was a lot of fun, which is not something I get to say all that often. I really enjoyed Vogarro's Whore too, which was a fun surprise. Every now and then Martin does something with a very nice flourish to it and that entire chapter was one of those times. Lots of good detail, very good imagery and then one thing that makes the books worthwhile is that occasionally there's a nice surprise.

Vogarro's Widow telling Dany to come to Volantis soon was one of those times. It's a pity they didn't include her in the show, it would have taken very little background to set her up and it would have taken a line of exposition to cover the tear-drop tatoo's meaning.

The Dwarf's sister trying to kill Tyrion was also a nice payoff from a long ago detail. For a moment I swear I thought that was Arya, by the way and couldn't for the life of me figure out why Tyrion would mistake her for a dwarf.

[mac123x]

You've reached one of the points that made me think "this needs a better editor." Both Quentin and Tyrion/Jorah had a long fucking "no one will take us east to Meereen" saga, and I found it incredibly repetitive. (Not based on anything but my own fear, so I'm not spoiler tagging it): I'm concerned that we'll get ANOTHER chapter in TWOW of the same shit with Archmaester Marwyn when he gets to Volantis and HE can't find a ship to take him to Dany.

One thing I found weird about that chapter was Jorah's interactions with Tyrion. Jorah has him trussed up, then shackled... but he's quite willing to exposit for his prisoner. He translates Bennero's preaching, tells him about the slaves being punished on the Long Bridge, and goes on at length explaining how politics work in Volantis. It just seemed weird that he'd provide all this information to his cargo. I actually enjoyed learning all this stuff, especially Bennero's speech and Tyrion's "yeah, trying to use the Red Priests to support Aegon is a very bad idea" reaction. It just seemed OOC for Mormont to go all Jorah-the-Explorer.

I liked the scene with the Golden Company. They seem like a decent bunch of folks, and not at all like some of the previous sell-swords we've seen, e.g., the Brave Companions. I struggle with finding a historical parallel. Hessian mercenaries that fought in the American Revolution maybe? I dunno.

Also Tris Botley is like the Westerosi version of "Nice Guy".

He's the very definition of "friend-zoned".

[Terra Nova]

Wait, Shimpy, no comment at all on Daenerys chapter? The one before The Lost Lord?

There's a nice insight of Daario, I was sure you would have commented on it, since you noted how undeveloped he was up to this point. And then there's Hizzy, GG the GG...

[Haleth]

You've reached one of the points that made me think "this needs a better editor." Both Quentin and Tyrion/Jorah had a long fucking "no one will take us east to Meereen" saga, and I found it incredibly repetitive. (Not based on anything but my own fear, so I'm not spoiler tagging it): I'm concerned that we'll get ANOTHER chapter in TWOW of the same shit with Archmaester Marwyn when he gets to Volantis and HE can't find a ship to take him to Dany.

I'm just glad more characters have gone to Essos so Dany's storyline becomes relevant.

However they need more monkeys. ;)

Shimpy, glad you finally met Penny!