Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Avaleigh]

I wholeheartedly and emphatically agree with this.  Oh poor Tywin died on the crapper.  After having had sex with a young, apparently skilled young woman and experience all of thirty five seconds of distress.  

 

I think the way that I see it and the question that I ask myself is 'how would these characters have wanted to die?' and I honestly think that all would have preferred other more gruesome deaths in some cases than what they ended up with. I thought Tywin's death was so perfect for him that to me it was the opposite of being disappointing. It was everything that he wouldn't and didn't want to happen. Tyrion thinks in the first book about how Tywin hates the idea of being laughed at and is suspicious of laughter in general. The idea of him dying in such an undignified way at the hands of the son he despises while failing in what he supposedly does best was incredibly satisfying to me. Add to that the physical pain, his shock, fear and horror that he isn't getting out of this and that he'll be found by someone in the privy was one of the best moments of ASoS for me. 

 

With Joffrey's death, the line that gets me is when Tyrion thinks that he's never seen Jaime look as scared as Joffrey looks. That Joffrey felt fear and physical pain and it was a public display was all very powerful to me. You also get the bonus of bad Cersei suffering in the scene in addition to it being a kind of win for Sansa because of how horrible Joffrey has been to her for so long. She actually gets to see the little shit die--to me that was awesome. Arya so would have wanted to see that. 

 

With the Mountain

I'd say that being in excruciating pain 24 hours a day is pretty nice payback. Most characters seem to think that he should be killed and put out of his misery. Milk of the poppy can't dull the pain and he spends day after day, week after week, screaming from the pain.

 

The other thing that's satisfying about Lysa's death is that it comes right after she tries to betray her own sister's daughter. 

 

Jaime's thoughts aren't for Joffrey when he learns of his death but he certainly feels pain for Cersei and wants to comfort her. I actually like the line about Jaime thinking about how House Lannister supposedly won the war because we see that they don't feel like winners and in many ways the so called losers are in better and stronger positions. 

 

I certainly see the point that terrible things happen to good people in this series, I just think that I feel that I've been more satisfied with the treatment of the villains than the average fan. The one exception is Ramsay. I loathe him in the book and the show but it isn't because he hasn't suffered huge losses or all of the Super Ramsay criticism. (Armor is a weird thing in this show and it isn't just him. I still shake my head when I think of Stannis in the Battle of the Blackwater fighting without a helmet. Like, how does that make sense?) I dislike most of his scenes and have no interest in rewatching them save maybe a couple that include Roose (season 5)

plus that wonderful dinner scene with Sansa and Walda.

Other than that he's just an awful character as far as I'm concerned and I completely understand why he's despised. 

 

As much as I despised Joffrey at least I could stand watching his scenes and he could even make me laugh on occasion like when he'd get scared or gets his ass slapped or checked by some member of his family. Tywin, Tyrion, and Cersei all had strong and memorable scenes with Joffrey. Ramsay for me though can just die any time. 

[ImpinAintEasy]

For what it's worth I completely agree with Dev F's point. You gain nothing in terms of examining the story by reading Dunk and Egg. I'm sure it's a fun story, but it doesn't actually focus on any characters who are even directly related to anyone in our main narrative. You can explore that at your leisure at a later time, or even after having finished the main novels, if you want... but given the primary context of this thread it feels like even more of a waste of time than GRRM writing them in the first place.

 

Do you consider the 3 Eyed Crow important to Bran's story? The reveal that he was Bloodraven was one of my biggest OMG moments from either of the last two books.

[bobbybuilderton]

Here, a survey https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/KXJFTJB

[Seerow]

Do you consider the 3 Eyed Crow important to Bran's story? The reveal that he was Bloodraven was one of my biggest OMG moments from either of the last two books.

 

Honestly knowing that Bloodraven is the 3EC meant nothing to me. I get that it's supposed to be a big reveal, but Bloodraven only shows up in the third of the three Novellas, and for a few minutes of ADWD. He's such a minor character that reading 3 novellas just to build up to him seems really excessive to me.

[stillshimpy]

Okay then, if you all want me to decide:  Oak and iron, guard me well, or else I'm dead and doomed to hell. 

 

I am all at the trial by Seven. Baelor has just joined the fight and it's about to go down :-)  At this rate I'll be done by...Tuesday, so Dunk and Egg it is.    

 

Indecision doesn't tend to plague me much.  I'm really more of a "that's a nice cliff, might as well see what's at the bottom of it! Wheeeeeee!" type. 

 

It's really very charming so far, I bet Martin had a grand time writing it.  Probably helped him shake out some cobwebs.  Plus, Daeron is friggin' hilarious.  "None of them can best me at lying insensible in the mud."  

 

It's fun for me too in that I recognize all the house names this time.  One Fossoway sucks, and the other most certainly does not.   I like the balance in the tale so far, we decidedly good Targaryens, and decidedly crazypants ones, but I knew Egg was a Targaryen from jump because Ameon (in the Show)  said his name as "Egg" :-) 

Edited November 1, 2015 by stillshimpy

[bobbybuilderton]

Oh you've already started. Well, that survey can be ignored then lol

[stillshimpy]

Oh you've already started. Well, that survey can be ignored then lol

 

Sorry! The majority seemed to swing towards, rather than against and I looked at the page count and realized "Yeah, I have a light week this week, I can bust these out by no later than Wednesday." (I have just guaranteed that I will be suddenly struck blind or something, but barring that?  Lightning fast reads.)  

 

So I yelled something battle worthy {"Puddles, stop licking your foot!") and just started reading ;-) 

[Delta1212]

I'm on the opposite side from Seerow as far as whether to read the novellas next, but I agree with him that somebody needs to make an executive decision because I don't think there's going to be a complete consensus on this.

I also understand the perspective of wanting to skip them, because I was slightly annoyed when Leigh Butler did them on her re-read of the series and sort of drifted away from reading those recaps around that point.

That said, I've come around on this issue in the intervening time, and you also have the advantage that you are going through the series at a much, much faster clip than she was, and so I think it's much more worth taking a week to get the novellas under your belt than if I thought it was going to take a month or two to finish them.

So here's my pitch for why I, as someone who hasn't read the novellas, think now is probably the best time to read them, not just generally but specifically in the context of this read through and comparing and contrasting the show and the book.

First, there are a few things that are either revealed in the novellas, emphasized in them or that simply tie into them that become relevant in the main series. To be clear on exactly how relevant, I never thought I was missing out on anything while reading the later books, but as soon as I finished Dance and went online to talk about it, I came upon a bunch of discussions about some things that didn't make any sense to me until I'd picked up enough extra little details to understand what people were talking about.

So I don't think it is essential to enjoying or understanding the story on s basic level, at least not yet, but I do think some things will be a little harder to fully discuss lacking certain context.

And most importantly from the perspective of discussing the story in terms of the adaptation: The producers have made clear from the beginning of the series, from episode three when Old Nan references the stories of Ser Duncan the Tall, that they are aware of the tie in stories, and that they are willing to make references to them, even if the references so far haven't been very big.

In light of that, and in light of the fact that some stuff from the novellas does tie in to the series proper, I think some of the discussion of what was cut, what was included and what was changed has to been informed at least slightly by information from those stories because it is information that both the fans and the showrunners have access to.

I can see the potential for discussions involving adaptation choices involving some of the supplemental information from the novels, either as justification for why something was included or cut or as adding criticism for why things are cut or changed, that in either case might not seem as important without having read said novellas.

The same could be said for all of the supplemental material to the series, of course, but again, from what I know, D&E seems to have the most direct connection to the main series and more importantly is much, much shorter than trying to tackle something like A World of Ice and Fire, so you're getting more "bang for your buck" in terms of time spent to impact on the story.

But again, I haven't read them myself (yet, I'll read along if we decide to do this), so I can't speak to one hundred percent of the impact that reading it will have, but I do know enough background to pick out a few places where it would definitely be beneficial both contextually and in terms of the discussion to have read them.

Ultimately, though, it's up to you and I'm certainly not going to be upset if we skip over them. These are simply my thoughts on the matter.

Edit: As I got to typing the end of this post, I just knew it had taken long enough that a decision would already have been made by the time I hit post, and lo and behold. :P

Edited November 1, 2015 by Delta1212

[WindyNights]

First, you're probably not going to get a consensus on this point. Some of the more... shall we say dedicated members of the fandom (many of whom are likely the sort more likely to participate in a thread like this one), are going to insist because they are written, and because there are minor tie-ins, they are necessary. There are others who just see it as a pointless detour, an excuse to explore more of what Westeros was like before the events of the War of Five Kings, during what is essentially a peacetime (not to say that nothing happens in the Novellas, just that it's not in the middle of giant earth shaking events like the main series novels are),

For what it's worth I completely agree with Dev F's point. You gain nothing in terms of examining the story by reading Dunk and Egg. I'm sure it's a fun story, but it doesn't actually focus on any characters who are even directly related to anyone in our main narrative. You can explore that at your leisure at a later time, or even after having finished the main novels, if you want... but given the primary context of this thread it feels like even more of a waste of time than GRRM writing them in the first place.

Edit: Anyway back to the main point: You can't punt the decision back to us, because we aren't going to reach one. Your best bet is a poll as someone suggested above, but honestly I feel like it's best if you make an informed decision on your own, knowing what each choice represents.

Eh, I would disagree because

Bloodraven and "Aegon".

think she'll need to read Dunk and egg just to understand why

Varys is doing what he is.

or rather the way he does things.

Also another person who was doing a first read on the series did the first books and then the Dunk and Egg novels. I think that's the way it should be done especially since it gives a lot more oomph to a particular reveal.

Edited November 2, 2015 by WindyNights

[nksarmi]

 Ok so now I totally have to see if my library has these available....

[magdalene]

Never read these Dunk and Egg books and don't have access to them or interest in them so I'll check out of the thread for now. Will you still be discussing AFFC eventually?

 

Thank you, shimpy.

Edited November 2, 2015 by magdalene

[stillshimpy]

I'm assuming we'll be into book four by the end of this week, honestly.  These are not heavy, or dense reads.  But they do appear to be sort of charming, and thank goodness, funny.  

 

So there isn't going to be a lot of dissection involved, as near as I can see.  I'm almost through the first one and truly here's what I have to say: Well this is charming.  It's like the Reeds set about telling a story, only with much more detail and the occasional fixation on breasts.   It's fun to have some exposure to Targaryens too.  

 

But I'd guess by Friday of next week we'll be into the fourth book.  

[Ashara Payne]

Dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall.

Listen to the audio books (on YouTube) if you can't get hold of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.

[stillshimpy]

I'm through the first one.  I figured I'd finish the first two (at Mya's suggestion) and discuss them together :-) It fits with the publication order from what I understand.  

[Delta1212]

Sounds good. I'm a good way through the first one myself now, so I'll see if I can finish it tonight. Not sure how much time I'll have for the second one tomorrow, but I'm usually a pretty quick reader.

[Reader of Books]

 think she'll need to read Dunk and egg just to understand why

Varys is doing what he is.

or rather the way he does things.

 

 

I had worked that out without reading them, and had suspicions since AGoT so it isn't 'needed' on that point, might just be 'helpful'. In fact my objection was it would make it all a bit too obvious.  

But I think that is offset by the Bloodraven set up.

So I am happy to read them now.

[Brn2bwild]

I read the Dunk and Egg tales fairly recently.  Based on the title, I was expecting them to be almost whimsical, and was surprised how dark they were in places.  The tone was similar to the one in the series, and Dunk reminded/reminds me a bit of Jon Snow.

[Alayne Stone]

A lot has been said about the Tysha/Tyrion relationship and whether or not it is important for him, even in the show. I personally think it is important, but it’s not just important for Tyrion. It’s also important for Jaime … and this omission, along with Tyrion’s revelation (in a direct reaction to that revelation) that Cersei has not been faithful to Jaime in the same way he has been to her … severely hinders Jaime’s development as well. It completely changes the Lannister dynamic in the show and as Shimpy has already astutely pointed out, it makes Tyrion’s reason for allying himself with Daenaerys confusing because he still has Lannisters he cares about and by allying himself with Dany, he is putting himself in direct conflict with Jaime, Myrcella and Tommen … which would presumably result in their deaths.

 

Of course everyone is going to have different reactions to the show versus the book. For me, book Tyrion’s situation is far more compelling. And this is coming from someone who was already a Sybil fan before she even appeared on the show. I love Sybil. I just did not care for Sybil’s Shae.

 

Can I also just add one thing about the mystery of why people don’t seem to think fantasy/sci-fi elements can hold a large audience?

 

Season 5 Spoilers:

We know this to be completely and utterly moot with the actual show. What is largely considered the most popular and successful episode of season 5? Hardhome. The episode that had the biggest WTF Supernatural element the show has done yet. So obviously it could have been done and it could have been done succesfully.

 

And a spoiler not for Shimpy’s eyes:

Never mind the fact that Hardhome, as it appears on screen, doesn’t even appear in the books.

 

I see you are reading Dunk and Egg next. I have not read them, so I will not be able to contribute too much other than what I have read about the series. I intend to read them some point soon. Maybe if book six is not done by the time I finish my own current reread of the series. I highly recommend the other Song of Ice and Fire related things Martin has published, such as The Princess and The Queen and then if you really feel like delving into the world … The World of Ice and Fire … which is a “history book” for Westeros and Esos, the “Seven” Kingoms and their ruling families. Just to give you an example, you get a very detailed account of Tywin’s murder of the entire Reyne family … and let me just say, I thought he was a ruthless SOB before but I really had no idea at all just how ruthless he was. But those can be read at any time after you finish the series.

 

When Shimpy eventually does get to AFfC, I’m just excited to get her reaction when she sees her first “Cersei” titled chapter.

 

Season 6 spoilers relating to Sansa that I would consider pretty major, so click at your own risk:

It does not look like she’s going anywhere near her book storyline, guys. Sophie was spotted at the big Battle of the Bastards, which is going to be episode 9 as of last week. She’s not leaving the North. The Knights of the Vale will inevitably somehow be involved, but there will be nothing to resemble her Harry the Heir storyline.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[Reader of Books]

Season 6 spoilers relating to Sansa that I would consider pretty major, so click at your own risk:

It does not look like she’s going anywhere near her book storyline, guys. Sophie was spotted at the big Battle of the Bastards, which is going to be episode 9 as of last week. She’s not leaving the North. The Knights of the Vale will inevitably somehow be involved, but there will be nothing to resemble her Harry the Heir storyline.

 

I have found the claims 'She will be returning to her own storyline now' as unsubstantiated tosh and 'with no harm done' to be infuriating and utterly ridiculous. Theon is not going to be teleporting her to the Vale.

[Alayne Stone]

I have found the claims 'She will be returning to her own storyline now' as unsubstantiated tosh and 'with no harm done' to be infuriating and utterly ridiculous. Theon is not going to be teleporting her to the Vale.

Still season 6 spoilers:

 

Yeah, I think it is mostly just coming out of the fact that it looks like Jaime is returning to his Riverlands storyline toward the end of the season and the fact that The Northern Lords are now going to be involved ... and I would imagine some form of the pink letter will be touched on given the big battle for episode 9. We also know Sophie filmed scenes in Winterfell with Littlefinger and that presumably can't happen until episode 10 with the Boltons still ruling from there in the mean time. But it is clearly not happening for her. We may be in some warped form of Winds territory here, but who knows anymore with this show.

[Delta1212]

Finished The Hedge Knight.

So far, it's mostly weird reading about a bunch of people that I already have a vague historical awareness of, but I'll hold off on being any more specific than that until we get to the actual discussion part.

I'm not entirely sure what I was expecting, but so far this has been better than that. Off to start The Sworn Sword.

[nksarmi]

Still season 6 spoilers:

 

Yeah, I think it is mostly just coming out of the fact that it looks like Jaime is returning to his Riverlands storyline toward the end of the season and the fact that The Northern Lords are now going to be involved ... and I would imagine some form of the pink letter will be touched on given the big battle for episode 9. We also know Sophie filmed scenes in Winterfell with Littlefinger and that presumably can't happen until episode 10 with the Boltons still ruling from there in the mean time. But it is clearly not happening for her. We may be in some warped form of Winds territory here, but who knows anymore with this show.

 

Season six spoiler/speculation:

I just assumed that Sansa is going to be on whatever book six path she should be on next season.  Like D&D know she ends up in the North somehow so they decided to skip over the Vale entirely.  Oh and then there is that "maiden slays the Titan at a castle of ice (snow?)" thing and if that refers to Sansa, she almost HAS to go back North in the books, right?  So I do think Sansa is returning to her "book" arc but just her book 6/7 arc.  Heck, even Jamie in the Riverlands seems like it's going to be truncated and more about getting him to where he should be for book 6 rather than giving us his proper character development from the books.  I even think the Northern Lords are going to be from book 6 territory - I just hope their story makes sense after skipping the North Remembers story from the books.   

Edited November 2, 2015 by nksarmi

[stillshimpy]

So far, it's mostly weird reading about a bunch of people that I already have a vague historical awareness of, but I'll hold off on being any more specific than that until we get to the actual discussion part.

 

That's been my reaction thus far also.  Since there are people in here who have not read them, I'll spoiler tag the specifics:  Dunk and Egg

Almost as soon as Duncan rode in front of the assembled, bellowing about "Will no one stand for right?" I assumed that the best person among them was about to die hideously and...of course...Baelor -- nice fakeout there, I did think it was Valarr , but I also knew as soon as he rode in "Oh, so that's the Targaryen who Duncan will end up dead because of this."   

So of course it then becomes a case of "how different might the world have been" since Baelor dies, trying to do what is right, but the story itself essentially underlines that.  To up the completely fuckedupedness of it all, his own brother kills him.  Kind of hard to feel sorry for said Maekar, even though he sends hideous, terrible Aerion to Lys (so he can terrorize them for a while) , because he knew one son was a drunkard, and the other was a crazy person. 

 

It feels like Martin wanted a chance to write the Targaryens a bit more fully, including the mad side.  So Aerion was like Joffrey crossed with Viserys.  

I was surprised that Duncan's horse made it out of the fray alive, and it was truly sad about the Humfrey and Beesbury.  

 

I couldn't help but wonder if the eggs that didn't hatch are now Dany's dragons.  

 

This is a cute tale, but it's not light and frothy.  It just feels like Martin wanted to take on Don Quixote and Twain's The Prince and the Pauper at once, but in that "Hey, you know how I like to break tropes"  it has to be go sideways and bad for the pauper.  So already we have resulting daddy issues for Valarr -- who unless I'm missing something, isn't actually going to rule, because Egg's brother is Aemon Targaryen and Ameon said his brother ruled, so ....bad luck looming for Valarr, I guess.  Unless I've got my succession wrong. 

 

Okay, more after I finish the second one

Edited November 2, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

That's been my reaction thus far also. Since there are people in here who have not read them, I'll spoiler tag the specifics: Dunk and Egg

Almost as soon as Duncan rode in front of the assembled, bellowing about "Will no one stand for right?" I assumed that the best person among them was about to die hideously and...of course...Baelor -- nice fakeout there, I did think it was Valarr , but I also knew as soon as he rode in "Oh, so that's the Targaryen who Duncan will end up dead because of this."

So of course it then becomes a case of "how different might the world have been" since Baelor dies, trying to do what is right, but the story itself essentially underlines that. To up the completely fuckedupedness of it all, his own brother kills him. Kind of hard to feel sorry for said Maekar, even though he sends hideous, terrible Aerion to Lys (so he can terrorize them for a while) , because he knew one son was a drunkard, and the other was a crazy person.

It feels like Martin wanted a chance to write the Targaryens a bit more fully, including the mad side. So Aerion was like Joffrey crossed with Viserys.

I was surprised that Duncan's horse made it out of the fray alive, and it was truly sad about the Humfrey and Beesbury.

I couldn't help but wonder if the eggs that didn't hatch are now Dany's dragons.

This is a cute tale, but it's not light and frothy. It just feels like Martin wanted to take on Don Quixote and Twain's The Prince and the Pauper at once, but in that "Hey, you know how I like to break tropes" it has to be go sideways and bad for the pauper. So already we have resulting daddy issues for Valarr -- who unless I'm missing something, isn't actually going to rule, because Egg's brother is Aemon Targaryen and Ameon said his brother ruled, so ....bad luck looming for Valarr, I guess. Unless I've got my succession wrong.

Okay, more after I finish the second one

Dunk & Egg stuff:

Yeah, I was concerned for Baelor's longevity as soon as he appeared next to his younger brother Maekar because I remember the name Maekar I Targaryen.

And I'm not sure if you remember, but Aerion Brightflame as been mentioned in both the books and the show at this point so we already know something of how he turns out as well.

[jellyroll2]

D&E spoiler (slightly):

The next time you see D&E the Targ herd has trimmed a little. You've got the succession correct. He does rule. He's Aegon V, aka Aegon the Unlikely. You can see how many people are in front of him in the succession so the moniker is damn appropriate. I feel like I should have known something was going to go pear shaped when Baelor showed up and I knew he had never ruled. But I figured he died some other way. So when he takes the helmet off and half his head falls out...yeah, figures the good one was gonna get screwed hard.

 

I love the D&E stories. They're obviously faster reading than the novels but they are hardly light fare. Still some really messed up stuff happening to people.

 

The Sworn Sword I probably really need to go back and read. I think it was my least favorite of the three but not because it wasn't good. I truly think I just was not paying attention while I read it.

[Reader of Books]

I imagine that shimpy, as a sci-fi fan, would be quite excited about the recent news....?

[Reader of Books]

The Sworn Sword I probably really need to go back and read. I think it was my least favorite of the three but not because it wasn't good. I truly think I just was not paying attention while I read it.

 

I had guessed at the resolution early, but discarded the option as I couldn't see how GRRM could reasonably get there. He got to it, but it just didn't really feel satisfying. In a book it would probably be fine because you have an expectation that anything loose will be developed then tied off later. A novella is different. I did really like a lot of the background story, the general story itself and the further info of previous events though. It was just that resolution issue I have.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Reader of Books

[Terra Nova]

I really liked the Sworn Sword (small tought on its plot in general and a tiny spoiler from A World of Ice and Fire)

despite being the one with the least 'important' plot from a Westerosi point of view, but it has the bonus of Dunk making out with Tywin's grandma D: although it's not my favorite revelation of AWoIaF. Lord Osgrey is a beautiful character and I loved him to pieces.

 

But the Hedge Knight too has that lighter and funnier tone, except for the Trial and Aerion the Cray-crayflame. It's refreshing having a small story with a smaller scope and a focus on the smallfolk instead.

Plus, Egg, while still being quite entitled, never becomes an annoying brat - which is a miracle, considering how many children characters turn out to be completely insufferable!

[Delta1212]

Finished The Sworn Sword.

I realized about halfway through that between the bald-headed illustrations and the attitude, I'd been mentally associating Egg with Aang from Avatar: The Last Airbender without consciously realizing it.

Edit: @Terra Nova

I haven't done more than skim A World of Ice and Fire yet, but I did make note of her relationship with grandpa Gerold while I was reading The Sworn Sword. There are some definite parallels with both Tywin and Cersei there.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

Okay, finished The Sworn Sword too. I enjoyed it for a variety of reasons Sworn Sword spoilers

I enjoyed Lord Eustace a great deal. He's a good illustration of history being written by the victors. 'treason is just a word' indeed.

Once again, Hunter makes it out of the proceedings alive, and this time I was genuinely surprised. I thought for sure he was done-for when Longinch hit him with that damned axe. Yes, the resolution to the entire story was fairly obvious.

Benny the Unbearable gets away and Duncan has more honor than any of the well-born gentry, but then again, he has no hope for power, at all. His main accomplishment, for which he is grateful, was becoming Arlan's squire, which rescued him from a truly dire sort of life. So of course he'd take Arlan's word as gospel, even though it makes him an itinerate sword -- will fight for room and board -- he takes the rules more seriously, because he has so few temptations to break them.

Continuing

I wasn't in the least surprised that Valarr kicked it in the Spring Fever, because again, I already figured out who Aegon is (Aegon the Unlikely) and this story went out of its way to -- once again -- establish why kinslayers are cursed. The story of the rebellion Daeron and Daemon makes it clear that the Targaryens had something of a "yup, you're all a bunch of kinslayers" before Maekar took out Baelor.

But the story didn't have a lot of tension in it -- as I said, I mostly worried about when poor Hunter would die and was glad to find out that Duncan did go back to get his Chestnut, the horse just died in Dorne -- because I know there's another Novella after this, so I knew poor Dunk wasn't going to die. Or Egg. Plus with the whole "has to marry beofre the next moon, or else, it was pretty clear who Rohanne needed to marry.

Duncan leaves this tale a little less naive, Egg a little more worldly (having never considered that a Bastard could have honor, it never occurred to him to question who Duncan's parents might be. It wasn't high stakes, but it was fun world-building stuff. Also, I'm assuming that the nearly stolen dragon's eggs are Dany's eggs, nearly stolen by Quickfinger. It was also just fun to get more background on the whole Targaryens fighting each other for that Throne.

I remember the name Duncan the Tall, from one of the background stories in one of the books, but that's all I remember of it. I can't remember if he becomes Kingsguard, or what. I'm curious as to what became of the Lannister sword, made of Valeryian Steel that no man could match. I seem to remember something about that being covered in this last book.

Oh...Aerion Brightflame? The guy who drank wildfire, because he was convinced he would turn into an actual dragon? Couldn't happen to a nicer fellow, I say :-)

Edited November 2, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Reader of Books]

I remember the name Duncan the Tall, from one of the background stories in one of the books, but that's all I remember of it. 

 

He was mentioned once in the Show as well.

[Delta1212]

I believe the story was that someone from House Lannister took the sword with him on a voyage to Valyria and never came back.

I forget the specifics, though.

[stillshimpy]

It's actually my understanding that to follow the publication order that I need to read the fourth book before reading the third Dunk and Egg story, right?

That's what I ended up doing, just reading in the order things were released (seemed simplest).

 

So in between the end of book three and book four being released was five years, right?  In that time George R. R. Martin released two of these novellas, from what I understand.  Must have helped him get his head in the writing game or something, but if anyone had had me guess, I would have guessed that there was a book in between the first Dunk and Egg story and the second.  

 

It's actually got a very different, darker narrative tone.  Dunk and Egg spoiler:  

The first story has an almost light tone to it.  Dunk is rescuing fair maidens from evil princes and despite how horribly that Trial by Seven goes -- which talk about the dramatic excess of the Targaryens and knowing it is the guy who drank wildfire made that one make a whole lot more sense -- there's at least some justice to it.  Although, between Rat Fossaway with the Red Apple and Not Wormy Fossaway with the Green Apple, it really was like "Team Would be Kinslayer against Team Would Be Kinslayer" but other than that?  It's sort of straightforward fantasy tale.   The puppeteer gets away with all her digits attached.  Despite Valarr arctic blast in Dunk's direction, it's really an almost chipper tale.

 

Sworn Sword spoilers

The Sworn Sword is just a darker tale all around.  Duncan the Slightly Disillusioned.  Whatever did become of the puppet mistress is still a mystery, but Duncan seems slightly embittered.    The first story had talked about how the previous generation the Targs nearly died out but rallied with everyone we meet at before the tournament.  By the time we join story again, the Targs are rather busily dropping like flies.   I remember Show Olenna talking about being nearly promised to a Targaryen and how it was all the rage to marry one in her youth....and I'm assuming those are some of the same Targs that are busily dying, leading to Aegon the Unlikely. 

 

But the overall tone of the tale is just less nearly whimsical and starts off with two dead men stuffed in a cage.  Egg makes some reference to some robber named Robin -- this story's version of Robin Hood -- but we never even learn the story behind the dead men who open and close the tale.  Or why one was missing his tongue.  Then there's a famous poem called The Rape of the Lock which is satire and classified as a "mock heroic" poem -- and it really is.   I sort of wondered if perhaps George Martin wasn't thinking of that when he wrote the ending. with Rohanne losing her too oft-mentioned braid.

[mac123x]

Duncan the Tall was mentioned on the show when Joffrey was reading the White Book (and mocking Jaime's lack of accomplishments in comparison) just prior to the Purple Wedding.

 

Regarding Olenna:  I think the "marrying Targaryens was all the rage" comment is about a later generation.  The D&E stories are taking place about a century before Game of Thrones.  Mystery Knight spoiler:

We see 4 year old Toddler Walder Frey.  I know Olenna is old, but I don't think she's older than Walder, which she'd have to be if she was supposed to wed one of the "died in the spring" Targs.

Edited November 2, 2015 by mac123x

[stillshimpy]

I thought he was also mentioned in Jaime's chapter of Confront the White Book chapter.  So I know he's either Kingsguard, or he did something noteworthy enough that he was recorded in the Big White Book of Lifetime Accomplishment.  

[Triskan]

So you're gonna start Feast (book 4) now ? :)

 

Looking forward to your reactions !!!

[ImpinAintEasy]

RE: Publishing order

 

I would just read the 3rd D&E novella before moving on to the 4th book. But it's not that big of a deal if you read the 4th book and then read 'The Mystery Knight'. I'd recommend reading the 3rd D&E novella before the 5th book, though, which I believe would be the published order anyway. Either way is okay.

[Mya Stone]

The Hedge Knight was actually from 1998. The Sworn Sword was from 2003, and The Mystery Knight was released in 2010.

A Feast For Crows was from 2005, and A Dance With Dragons is 2011. :)

[ambi76]

Oh happy days, I found

another Lord Eustace fan. I thought that was a fanclub of one.

 

@ mac123x: Olenna (72) is pretty much exactly twenty years younger

than Walder Frey (92), so yeah.

Edited November 2, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

The Hedge Knight was actually from 1998. The Sworn Sword was from 2003

 

I don't think this is too spoilery a thing reveal:  The tone difference between the first and second story really was pretty marked, so I was sort of assuming there was a block of time in between writing the two. 

 

 

 

So you're gonna start Feast (book 4) now ? :)

 

I thought I would, then read the 3rd  Dunk and Egg story after A Feast for Crows.  Just stick with the release order.  I can't honestly say that I would have read a prequel novella had I been waiting for the release of a new book.  I can honestly say I likely wouldn't have, but I enjoyed those first two.  

 

So Mya, anytime you want to change the title of the thread to A Feast for Crows :-)   The Dunk and Egg stories were fun, but I don't find myself with a lot to say about them.  Nice world building.  Fun characters.  Fun to recognize all the house and names.  

 

I mean except for (Sworn Sword spoiler)

Aegon having a mule named Maester, given to him by his brother -- and I'm going to assume that's either Aemon or Daeron -- if Daeron hasn't managed to drink himself to death yet -- my main take away is that The Hand is a Bastard (vs baseborn and that there's a difference in that terminology) named Brynden Rivers ....who might be a sorcerer.  That the Winters are longer and the summer shorter the fewer Targs are running around and some general chaos around a king legitimizing all of the children he sired, regardless of station in life and what a melee for the crown that might have caused....which helps explain a little bit of the main stories attitudes towards bastards/natural born children.  

It is mostly world-building vs. story supporting stuff.

Edited November 2, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Brn2bwild]

I liked the stories as a whole, but my biggest complaint is that Egg never really emerges as a full character.  He's basically just a cute kid who snarks and is occasionally snotty.  If Martin writes future tales, I hope he writes some from Egg's perspective.

 

The Mystery Knight seems to be a favorite in other forums, but I really liked the Sworn Sword.  It was silly, sad, and had some good twists.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Brn2bwild

[Reader of Books]

Yeah, its very much 'The Tales of Dunc: ft. Egg'.

 

Soooo - on to Feast then!

[WindyNights]

@shimpy Just a heads up but originally there was going to be a 5 year timeskip after ASOS but GRRM realized after he finished that book that he couldn't make it work which is why AFFC and ADWD took so long to be written. Many of those events were meant be skipped over and flashbacked to.

[stillshimpy]

I liked the stories as a whole, but my biggest complaint is that Egg never really emerges as a full character.

 

Yes, thus far I've gotten no sense of why Egg is along for this ride and (Dunk and Egg spoiler)

is so interested in being a squire that he follows Duncan to the Tournament in the first place.  I know he said he wanted to squire for someone, but he knew that Duncan was very poor, etc.  For the one time adventure it makes some sense and he really hates his brother Aerion -- which only makes sense -- but I'm not really given any sense why Aegon wants to trail around the countryside with Duncan.  There's that very cute "I hear it is Tall" at the end of the story, but I'm given no sense of why Egg is doing what he's doing.  

 

I mean, that would only sound like a grand adventure for a while and it's a life with a fair amount of privation in it.  I don't know why Egg is so interested in it.  I know he's something like the fourth son of a second or third son and so it's practically like Laura Roslin "42 in line" ending up as President of the Colonies , so it isn't as if he's need back in the capital to be groomed for ruling some day, but it's sort of a harsh life for a kid and the only motivator for him to do it seems to be "because the plot says so".

[Terra Nova]

@Delta212:

Yeah, the parallels are really poignant, and I think that’s the reason why, despite understanding her situation, I never truly warmed to Lady Rohanne as a character: actually, the feeling the narration wanted me to do it made me despise her even more ^^’

 

@Shimpy:
Have you noticed how (spoiler from the Hedge Knight)

it is unclear, and I’m completely on board with the ‘no’ option, whether Ser Arlan truly knighted Duncan? It fits with the overall theme of what chivalry truly is, how the dashing knights are usually bags full of hot wind and the freaks and the outcasts are the true embodiment of those courteous qualities? Dunk, Brienne, Sandor, none of them is a knight, but they end up representing the true spirit of what a knight should be (especially in my opinion Sandor, included the courtly love narrative with Sansa – I will go down with this ship! Blame GRRM! –)

 

@ambi76:

yep, I felt so much compassion for that poor man: as Dunk points out, he wanted a castle with the chequered lion on the gatehouse and he ended up with his sons dead among the thorns. I got all misty eyed when Septon Sefton tells how Rohanne started to cry on Addam’s grave and Ser Eustace went to console her. And also when Ser Eustace recounts the battle and how the beauty of the sun setting pierced his heart.
I’m totally against the black dragon, and I think a point can be made about the parallels between Daemon and Renly, at least with regard to the charms and the way they presented themselves – as warriors, and in case of Daemon as some sort of Aegon the Conqueror reborn –, but Ser Eustace is a man of his time who paid dearly for his loyalty, however misguided it was… and at least he was honest enough to admit he fought for the black dragon.

 

Regarding Olenna:

As ambi noted upthread, there’s a discrepancy between the show and the books: the former cancelled an entire generation of Targaryen, so that they made the Mad King Egg’s son instead of grandson. Likewise, very minor spoiler from A World of Ice and Fire,

Olenna was indeed promised to a Targaryen, and Lyonel Tyrell to another one. It ended up with the two Targ sibling succumbing to the power of incest and fleeing together, leaving the two inferior beings – and their very pissed families – at each other. The series completely reverts the situation, with Olenna stating that she had no interest in the mousy-faced Targ and opting for seducing her sister’s betrothed with the power of her vajaja

ETA As WindyNights pointed out, I mixed up some Targ ^^' so the

male Targ succumbing to the power of incest was promised to a Lady Tully. Olenna got the gay one who refused her, and Luthor Tyrell saw his fiancee running away with her brother

 

 

Olenna is old, but not decrepit, and surely much younger than Walder Frey, which I think with Maester Aemon and Old Nan is one of the oldest character in the series thus far

 

ETA: the spoiler here above is for nothing, but I was having a lot of problems closing the previous two tags and this is the only way it seems to work XD

Edited November 2, 2015 by Terra Nova

[ImpinAintEasy]

Okay, now things are about to get interesting. Shimpy is about to venture into the great unknown. Prediction(not for Shimpy's eyes):

She is going to loathe the Ironborn chapters and she'll enjoy the Dornish ones.

[Delta1212]

I'm going to go back to reading along more consistently instead of doing it in the piecemeal fashion I've been doing for the last two books, both because I kind of want to re-read Feast anyway, but also because otherwise I'm just going to wind up diving straight into the Mystery Knight and I kind of want to hold off on that for now.

[Terra Nova]

@Shimpy:

 

in Catelyn's chapter where Robb writes his will and legitimize Jon as his heir, Catelyn explicitly refers to the Blackfyre Rebellion and how the realms bled because of the ambition of some legitimized bastard. In Daemon Blackfyre's case, apart from the legitimization on the king's deathbed, there was also the public gift of Aegon the Unworthy, giving him the ancestral Targaryen sword. Considering how some nobles were bitter over the Dornish finally joining the realm and entering the royal court, to the point that the heir to the throne was half Dornian himself, and how the Reach and Dorne have been enemies since forever, it's no surprise that Daemon's powerbase was in the Reach itself.

Also, through Ser Eustace's words, how Daeron being not so fit automatically disqualified him from being the stuff of real kings, you can really see the middle age concept that the body of the king is the land itself and vice versa.

 

 

(OT: a good example of this is the legend of the Fisher King in Arturian cycles, though the source for that is much more ancient, a king wounded, usually in the abdomen or the loins, with the cut never healing, and unable to leave his castle, with his land decaying with him. Heck, even the Lion King plays on that trope! 

The Fisher King draws actually origin from a very ancient figure of celtic myth, Bran the Blessed, the Holy Crow, some mythical hero who wrecked shit - Achilles or Hercules level of shit -, and in the Arthurian myth his castle's name is Carbonek or Corbenic, which has the same root of Bran, Brandon, and GRRM's Brynden. And our little Bran is the crippled raven who will never walk again

but he will fly THE FEELINGS!

, and the Last Hero, if indeed is Brandon the Builder, is the mythical Bran the Blessed figure of A Song of Ice and Fire... I'm a sucker for these things ^^')

 

Back in topic, there's also a nice parallel between the victorious Robert's Rebellion, fought also but not only for love, and the claims that the Blackfyre one was caused by Daemon's love for Daenerys. I'm pretty skeptical on this point though, since it happened years after Daenerys marriage and Daemon lost no time in producing heirs with some other woman; I would take that as some bard embellishment, like the songs of the Ghost of Renly or the rumors of Sansa killing the king with a song and then turning into a monstrous wofl with bat wings and flying away :)

Edited November 2, 2015 by Terra Nova

[WindyNights]

@Terra Nova You're getting your Targs mixed. The Targ that Olenna Tyrell was supposed to marry was

gay.

Edited November 2, 2015 by WindyNights

[Delta1212]

Somehow I forgot that this was the prologue to Feast until I started reading it, despite having looked forward to getting to it for a while.

Only sort of almost spoilerish if you haven't read the prologue to Feast yet, but I'm being cautious:

It is so much better the second time through that it's not even funny. I remember my eyes glazing over the first time I read it simply because I had no idea what was going on or why I needed to care.

This one's not for shimpy:

Which really describes the first read-through of Feast in general, doesn't it

@Terra Nova You're getting your Targs mixed. The Targ that Olenna Tyrell was supposed to marry was

gay.

I think you mean

gae