Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[SeanC]

Tyrion sympathized to a point, but only insofar as the wholly unnecessary cruelties that Joffrey inflicts were concerned (e.g., intervening to stop her from being beaten in the throne room scene). The fundamental thing about Sansa and Tyrion is that they are on different sides and have diametrically opposing interests.

Edited July 27, 2015 by SeanC

[nksarmi]

Tyrion sympathized to a point, but only insofar as the wholly unnecessary cruelties that Joffrey inflicts were concerned (e.g., intervening to stop her from being beaten in the throne room scene). The fundamental thing about Sansa and Tyrion is that they are on different sides and have diametrically opposing interests.

I guess I was trying to contrast him to say Olenna who I do think liked her and wanted to help her get away from her captures/abusers in some part as kindness even though it might have also served as a political move.  But Olenna - who would have helped Sansa if she could have - was pretty much powerless to do so against Tywin.  Tyrion or perhaps Varys might have been able to help her without the strings that come with LF's help. 

 

But this is more of Sansa not doing well because the people who are actually "good" aren't the people she was taught to look to - it's not the prince or the lord or the knight she needs, it's the dwarf or the eunuch.  Arya also benefits because she doesn't trust lords or ladys to help her but rather turns to the less noble stock.

 

[SeanC]

I guess I was trying to contrast him to say Olenna who I do think liked her and wanted to help her get away from her captures/abusers in some part as kindness even though it might have also served as a political move.  But Olenna - who would have helped Sansa if she could have - was pretty much powerless to do so against Tywin.  Tyrion or perhaps Varys might have been able to help her without the strings that come with LF's help. 

 

But this is more of Sansa not doing well because the people who are actually "good" aren't the people she was taught to look to - it's not the prince or the lord or the knight she needs, it's the dwarf or the eunuch.  Arya also benefits because she doesn't trust lords or ladys to help her but rather turns to the less noble stock.

Tyrion never demonstrated the slightest inclination to actually remove Sansa from Lannister captivity.  He just wanted to make her captivity more humane.  Because ultimately, Sansa being in Lannister power serves the interests of House Lannister, and Tyrion wants House Lannister to win; and, though he doesn't like Joffrey personally, he's fully engaged in keeping Joffrey on the throne.  Sansa wants House Lannister to lose, and she has no interest in collaborating with the "moderate" Lannister faction.  It has little to do with Tyrion being ugly, though she clearly doesn't think much of his appearance either.

 

And I really don't see how help from Varys could possibly be seen as coming without strings.  Different strings, perhaps, but he's a puppet-master par excellence. 

Edited July 28, 2015 by SeanC

[Mya Stone]

Hey guys...let's keep this discussion on track. You're getting ahead of yourselves, big time.

[SeanC]

Yeah, I was mindful that this tendril of the discussion was getting ahead, though I confined myself to events that were depicted in the show.

 

On the subject of this recent run of chapters, stillshimpy, any thoughts on the meeting between Sansa and the Hound after she leaves Dontos?  That's another scene that was omitted from the show (to the consternation of some).

[Delta1212]

Fair warning to shimpy: SanSan is a thing that exists in this fandom.

[SeanC]

I'm agnostic on it, myself, but there's undeniably a lot of interesting thematic content in their interactions that is entirely absent from the show.  At this point in Book 2 the Hound now has quite a lot of backstory, whereas even by the end of Season 4 we really don't know that much about him.

[Eegah]

I like the way someone on TV Tropes put it, that Martin apparently didn't realize badass scarred anti-heroes were IN at the time he started writing the series, which earned Sandor quite the fandom.

[SeanC]

Heh, given that he's a big X-Men fan, I tend to doubt that (though the Hound isn't really an anti-hero; among other things, he would need to be a protagonist for that).

Edited July 28, 2015 by SeanC

[ebevan91]

Should the title be changed now that she's on A Clash of Kings?

[Mya Stone]

Should the title be changed now that she's on A Clash of Kings?

Fair point. Edited. :)

[Delta1212]

I'm willing to grant that the book Hound might be a more interesting character (in the way that almost all characters are at least somewhat more fleshed out on the page), but I always liked Rory McCann's Hound far more than I ever liked the one in the book.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, on Rory McCann's portrayal vs.  Book Hound, I personally think McCann (or the director, or both) made an incredibly wise choice when it came to keeping that character, if not enigmatic, then at least a figure that could keep you guessing about motives.   When he warns Tyrion that Joffrey will remember the slap, the line-read is close to "actually giving a crap and issuing a 'watch your back, he's a vengeful shit' with, if not a sense of empathy, at least a whiff of concern" rather than the book's which comes off more like, "Suck it, Dwarf! He'll remember that and you'll have to pay for it.  Woo!  Looking forward to that damn day.  Haha!"  

 

Screen Hound is less gloaty and less overtly committed to whatever heinous thing he's doing.  He's more likely to seem detached from the emotional import of what he's doing.  Book Hound also practically spiked the football of evil on the hacked up corpse of Micah, like "Sucka didn't run fast enough, not that he could have, I'd sharpened my blade, fed my horse and have no damned problem thirsting for the blood and lives of children."   Screen Hound?  Closer to "He ran.  Not very fast."  and if he has any sense of Micah as a human being, the actor doesn't betray it.  He doesn't regret it, but it isn't an act of malice and it gives him no sense of glee. 

 

And there are a LOT of choices like that on McCann's part.  It sort of bugged me that the story of how he was burned is told to Arya in the show, instead of Sansa.  However, I can understand why the show made the choices they did.  In the book, The Hound's drunken conversation with Sansa makes it clear that he is -- for lack of a better term -- perving on her quite a bit at points.  In fact, there's a really disconcerting number of grown ass men in the book who just openly ogle Sansa.  The stuff with Littelfinger being the most overt and I'm very grateful to the choices Aidan Gillen made, because there's no hint of that in his delivery style with the actress.   In fact, overall he seems to have toned down LF's sexuality to the point that it came as something of a shock when he had sex with Lysa.  

 

It was a good choice on Gillen's part, I think, because it keeps you guessing as to what motivates Littelfinger in a way that the book doesn't.  

 

But back to the Hound, there's at least a little bit of that at play there too.  On the show, he seems to use that savage persona as a way to deflect any human interaction.  Like he whips it out like a shield to keep himself from being hurt.  When Sansa thanks him and wow...does it ever not go well for her, he purposefully terrifies her...it doesn't come off as being anything other than a defensive move on his part, to hide vulnerability...and thereby makes him seem vulnerable. 

 

In the book I think his motives are a little less clear.  He might be trying to keep himself at a distance from everyone, but he also openly pervs on this poor girl who is just a kid, who everyone is seemingly treating in a predatory fashion as it is and who, when he tells her that origin story prior to this, he threatens to kill her if she tells anyone.  It changes the nature of what it seems like he's protecting himself from, at least seemingly so.  

 

In the show it always comes off as if he's protecting himself from the person he is actually near sensing that he has any feelings that can be hurt.   When he saves Sansa from the group that was about to rape her, it's a terrifying scene, but the way the actor played it, he's very kind to her in the aftermath.   He treats  her like someone who understands what emotional fragility actually feels like, recognizes it in her and is one of the few people not treating her like something to be consumed, used, or bartered.  

 

Book Hound still seems like a damaged man, trying to protect himself from anyone ever finding out he also contains emotionally vulnerable areas, or a less than hardened heart....but he also seems like part of the group of people who treat Sansa being beautiful as if it is something there for the world to take, vs. part of her person.   

Now, I've just decided to ignore the ages as much as I can.  I already talked to Mya about this, found out Martin doesn't actually have children and just decided that he therefore didn't quite get that the age thing with Sansa is pretty creepy.  Yes, in the time period of history from which he seems to have drawn, very young girls were betrothed and sort of treated as bargaining chips, but they weren't sexualized in quite the way this book is portraying it.   Basically I think Martin just made a mistake with the ages and didn't really realize that a dude perving on a 12-year-old in that manner is just a predator and would have been even in the real-world equivalent time in history.   I sometimes think that Martin likely has more exposure to the popular sources of history from the Wars of the Roses, vs. the accurate ones, basically.   

 

But that's far afield of the question:  I find the interaction intriguing for different reasons in the book than I did on the show.  I have to ignore poor Sansa's age in the book a lot, for a lot of her interactions.  Including a grown man beating her with a metal glove.  He does tend towards the more sensationalized (and inaccurate ) apocryphal takes on history and draws from them for some source I think.  

In the book, the Hound's interactions with Sansa seem less about pity or empathy, or even compassion, but there's still some sense of that.  In the Show, whereas he can ferociously frighten her on purpose, it's far more obvious that he feels sorry for her as much as anything else and until he is trying to goad Arya into putting him out of his misery, McCann pretty much never hints that lust of any kind enters into it.  Book Hound wears that more openly. 

Edited July 28, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Haleth]

Where are you in the book? All the talk about Dontos and the Hound have me confused about how far we've gotten.

[Eegah]

The show was going to talk about his backstory just like in the books, but unfortunately it proved to be impossible to get McCann and Turner on set together for as long as it would take (apparently the whole tournament sequence was an absolute nightmare to coordinate between all the actors' schedules, and everything we see is stitched together from whatever small groups they could get together). There's one more major note on Sandor's differences to come that a lot of us are probably waiting to make, so I'll hold off on that for now even though technically you have the information just from the show.

[Delta1212]

The sense I always had of the book Hound was that his personality centered on a core of rage. The show Hound is a very angry character, but anger and rage are not the same thing.

On the show, I think the Hound has taken away from his experiences with Gregor an intense disillusionment with Knights and supposed men of honor (because if Gregor can be a knight, then what does that say about the system the live in?) as well as a hatred of bullies and those who prey on the weak.

At the same time, I think he's afraid of ever being that boy in the fire again, and his whole persona is built around shielding that inner boy from being further damaged, so while he peeks out from under the armor from time to time and sympathizes with the powerless victims around him, he also keeps himself at an emotional remove because his fear is such that he'd still rather be the one pushing faces into the fire than go back to being the one on the receiving end, but I think this leads to a certain amount of self-loathing because he recognizes that to keep from being one of the bullied he has turned himself into one of the bullies that he so loathes. I also think that this leads to a certain amount of disdain for the weak both because they are unable to protect themselves (especially from him, since if they could he wouldn't have to do the horrible things to them) and because if he doesn't hold them in disdain then the sympathy might win out and either undermine the emotional armor he has built up for himself, or else make him feel what he has done to others more keenly.

I thin a lot of that is also present in the book Hound, but, as I said, there is a core of rage at what was done to him, and at how the world has treated him vs how it has treated his brother, that overwhelms some of those aspects and causes him to be a bit more gleeful in the havoc he causes, because he is taking revenge on a world that has been very cruel to him as the only pleasure he has left to him anymore.

Of course, in a series full of narrators whose opinions tend to shade their narration, I think Sansa tends to be one of the less reliable narrators in terms of seeing people as they are vs how she imagines them to be and this might contribute to enhancing the more monstrous qualities of the Hound even further when seen through her eyes.

[stillshimpy]

I'm on page 244 of 760.   At the start of a Bran chapter.   

 

Everything I've personally discussed about the Hound in the book is -- pretty obviously -- about the Hound in the Book.   I did talk about some of the things the show swapped out with the Hound and put much, much later.  For instance his backstory is something he tells Sansa in the first book (his brother, the toy, etc) , but in the show it's seasons later and he tells Arya that.  

 

As for all the Dontos/Olenna/Tyrion and who helped Sansa, nope not really up to any of that yet.  She'd just met Dontos and I do agree that the way the show depicts it (again, seasons later) doesn't demonstrate Sansa participating in her own decision-making.  In the series she's usually a character who is ruled by inertia vs. animating force.  In the book, she does have her own decision making process and for whatever it is, or isn't worth, she's the only adolescent/child age character who has a thought process close to fitting to her age on a regular basis. 

 

Bran's POV chapters are very ordered and he has an emotional understanding of the things that frustrate him.  To borrow a horrible Oprah Phrase, he's clearly in possession of a much older child's "Emotional Toolkit" and similarly, Arya is often very self-possessed and focused for someone so young.  I'm willing to put that down to both of them being remarkably precocious (which does just happen in real-life) and poor Sansa often seems almost dim by comparison because she has the logic progressions of a 12-year-old girl in a lot of what she mulls over and decides to do.  

[Protar]

IIRC Martin has said that he finds Bran the most difficult to write, precisely because he's the youngest POV and it's a hard balance to strike between conveying a complex story with lots of wordy descriptions and actually writing something like the monologue of a kid. Add in the magical visions and the rather slower pace and I can see why Martin thinks that. 

[Delta1212]

I think that is also a major part of why some people so dislike her. Despite being older, she seems much less mature than the other children, despite that this is largely because the kids aren't generally written as their given age except for Sansa.

I think Martin has admitted that he made the kids too young at the start of the series, and I think it's another instance where the show basically allowed for a bit of a do-over on an element that it later became very apparent was a bit of a mistake, but one that couldn't be corrected once the series was under way.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Delta1212

[stillshimpy]

I think that is also a major part of why some people so dislike her. Despite being older, she seems much less mature than the other children, despite that this is largely because the kids aren't generally written as their given age except for Sansa.

 

I really think there's a lot to that.  Martin made both Arya and Bran truly remarkable for their ages and then wrote Sansa as being more realistic for her character's age.  She'd still be a remarkable 12-year-old, by the way, but Arya and Bran both fall into the "only in a magical construct are these believably kids of that age" whereas Sansa?  Yeah, I'm assuming that Sansa is the only child character he actually based on a kid he personally knew.  

[Eegah]

One other bit like that I found pretty amusing is when he looked down from some tower that was 200 feet high, and sheepishly told the person he was with that maybe making the Wall 700 feet high was a bit too much.

[Dev F]

I do agree that the way the show depicts it (again, seasons later) doesn't demonstrate Sansa participating in her own decision-making.  In the series she's usually a character who is ruled by inertia vs. animating force.  In the book, she does have her own decision making process and for whatever it is, or isn't worth, she's the only adolescent/child age character who has a thought process close to fitting to her age on a regular basis.  

 

Yeah, I think this is another of the show's most significant failings: they became so enamored of all the supporting characters in the King's Landing storyline that they consigned Sansa to simply reacting helplessly to everyone else's actions, from Joffrey and the queen in the first few seasons to Margaery and Olenna in the seasons to come. And I get it, because I adore all of those characters, too, but it's still a mistake to reduce one of the show's main characters to an afterthought in her own storyline.

[stillshimpy]

Hee!  Yeah, just as I'm not sure that Martin understood much about what Tryion being a dwarf entailed, I don't think he had the keenest grasp of structural engineering either, when it came to The Wall.  That's okay though, in all works of fiction there comes a "just go with it" moment and The Wall is one of those things.  Besides, I always told myself that it couldn't have been a manmade structure and it was evidence of the workings of magic(ks), because that's the best thing about fantasy series, you really can fall back -- without any shame -- on the old "A Wizard Did It" explanation :-)  

 

So I'm commenting after reading only one chapter because holy hannah, there are the Reeds!  Introduced in a completely normal, not in the least "who the hell are these suspicious folks who just happened upon the refugee children, claiming to be the children of their father's oldest friend?  I smell a trap!" fashion.  Rodrik is there and Luwin and they aren't in the least suspicious or sketchy and Bran remembers his father talking about Howland Reed saving him from the best Kingsguard, Arthur Dayne.   

 

Okay, so every now and then I'm over on FB discussing how maddening some of these decisions are.  Thorne and that blasted hand being left a mystery forever, for no decent reason.   On this one, I take it that they didn't want to cast and pay the actors for the Reeds until they were going to be more specifically used?  

 

Either way, it was a case of "Oh!  Wow, holy crow!  And also....ARGH!" because oh.my.god the theories we came up with about the Reeds, including, but in no way limited to "I bet they are agents of the WhiteWalkers and actually dead themselves."  partially because they very clearly gave Osha a case of the creeps and instead, they are described as sounding closer to being like the long, long removed descendants of the oft mentioned Children of the Forest.  

 

That was super fun to learn, but I got to tell you, sometimes that stuff is just frustrating as hell to learn.  "Oh good....hours of my life represented by what was really straightforwardly presented in the book.  Thanks, show."  

[Haleth]

Yeah. That was one of the things bookwalkers hated seeing... how suspicious the Unsullied were of the Reed kids. It was hard to not tell you that they were good friends to Bran.

I hope we get to see their home sometime because it sounds like an interesting place. Maybe someplace for someone to hide?

Edited July 28, 2015 by Haleth

[SeanC]

On this one, I take it that they didn't want to cast and pay the actors for the Reeds until they were going to be more specifically used?  

That, and, I suspect, if you don't hold off on the Reeds until Season 3 Bran has even less to do that year.

 

The way they introduced them and people were suspicious was a logical but clearly unforeseen consequence (and I'm not criticizing the showrunners here, because I don't recall any book readers anticipating that either).  But yeah, it was definitely frustrating to watch people try to figure out what was up with the Reeds, when there wasn't anything up, but yet that was still an entirely reasonable avenue for people to look down.

 

One detail I really missed from the books is the Reeds' oath when they first appear ("by ice and fire", and all that).

Edited July 28, 2015 by SeanC

[Eegah]

D&D actually stated to the book fans halfway through Season 2 "Don't worry, we didn't cut the Reeds, there was just too much else we needed to put in this season." One other consequence was that Osha, after already absorbing some of Old Nan's lines after the actress' death, also had to take over Jojen's role of talking to Bran about his dreams until Jojen himself showed up to take over.

[The Mormegil]

One other bit like that I found pretty amusing is when he looked down from some tower that was 200 feet high, and sheepishly told the person he was with that maybe making the Wall 700 feet high was a bit too much.

 

That was actually said when he visited the Castle Black Set and looked up at the quarry wall (400 feet high) they were using for The Wall..

[nksarmi]

I'm on page 244 of 760.   At the start of a Bran chapter.   

 

Everything I've personally discussed about the Hound in the book is -- pretty obviously -- about the Hound in the Book.   I did talk about some of the things the show swapped out with the Hound and put much, much later.  For instance his backstory is something he tells Sansa in the first book (his brother, the toy, etc) , but in the show it's seasons later and he tells Arya that.  

 

As for all the Dontos/Olenna/Tyrion and who helped Sansa, nope not really up to any of that yet.  She'd just met Dontos and I do agree that the way the show depicts it (again, seasons later) doesn't demonstrate Sansa participating in her own decision-making.  In the series she's usually a character who is ruled by inertia vs. animating force.  In the book, she does have her own decision making process and for whatever it is, or isn't worth, she's the only adolescent/child age character who has a thought process close to fitting to her age on a regular basis. 

 

Bran's POV chapters are very ordered and he has an emotional understanding of the things that frustrate him.  To borrow a horrible Oprah Phrase, he's clearly in possession of a much older child's "Emotional Toolkit" and similarly, Arya is often very self-possessed and focused for someone so young.  I'm willing to put that down to both of them being remarkably precocious (which does just happen in real-life) and poor Sansa often seems almost dim by comparison because she has the logic progressions of a 12-year-old girl in a lot of what she mulls over and decides to do.  

Sometimes Sansa causes me problems for this reason.  To deal with the ages, I kind of decided that years don't mean the same thing in Westerous that they mean to us.  I mean they have Summers and Winters that last for generations so why should we assume a year equals 365 days?  So most of the time I pretend that Jon is like 25, Ayra is about 18, etc.... but that becomes harder to handle with Sansa lol - still I can put her at about 20 and make it work. If I completely ignore that bit about her getting her moon's blood that is, but that's a small thing to overlook. :)

Edited July 29, 2015 by nksarmi

[Protar]

I think the ages are just one of those things that you've got to let fade into the background. It really wasn't a big deal for me on my first read, because I was like 13 so the younger characters with rather aged personalities in pretty mature situations didn't bother me. And Martin's admitted he maybe should have aged everyone up a couple of years so it's just something I go with. 

[nksarmi]

I think the ages are just one of those things that you've got to let fade into the background. It really wasn't a big deal for me on my first read, because I was like 13 so the younger characters with rather aged personalities in pretty mature situations didn't bother me. And Martin's admitted he maybe should have aged everyone up a couple of years so it's just something I go with. 

Protar - off topic question but anyone else can feel free to join in - I have an 11 (going on 12) year old who is a very advanced reader.  I just recently noted that the Divergent and Hunger Games series are rated at about a 5th/6th grade reading level on AR tests.  How did the sex/violence of Game of Thrones register to you at 13?  I'm wondering when I should just let her read adult books and forget about "age appropriate" content (not that I'm going to let her read 50 shades or anything like that.....).

[Protar]

Protar - off topic question but anyone else can feel free to join in - I have an 11 (going on 12) year old who is a very advanced reader.  I just recently noted that the Divergent and Hunger Games series are rated at about a 5th/6th grade reading level on AR tests.  How did the sex/violence of Game of Thrones register to you at 13?  I'm wondering when I should just let her read adult books and forget about "age appropriate" content (not that I'm going to let her read 50 shades or anything like that.....).

 

I think if she's really advanced you should just let her go for what she wants (within the bounds of reason of course). I mean I turned out fine reading ASOIAF. Honestly the intricacies of the plot were much more of a barrier than the sex or violence (I had quite forgotten who Elia Martell was by the time Oberyn showed up for example). But I got the gist of the plot. I already knew what sex was so...it didn't really bother me. 

[Delta1212]

Protar - off topic question but anyone else can feel free to join in - I have an 11 (going on 12) year old who is a very advanced reader. I just recently noted that the Divergent and Hunger Games series are rated at about a 5th/6th grade reading level on AR tests. How did the sex/violence of Game of Thrones register to you at 13? I'm wondering when I should just let her read adult books and forget about "age appropriate" content (not that I'm going to let her read 50 shades or anything like that.....).

I didn't read ASoIaF when I was 13 (obviously), but I can't think of much in it that is particularly more explicit, sexually or violently, than other things I read at that age.

I was given a pretty free hand to read basically whatever I wanted by that age (which, in fairness, was probably due as much to the fact that I don't think my parents could have kept up with everything I was reading even if they'd wanted to just based on sheer volume). I think the fact that books are, pretty much by definition, less graphic than a lot of the rest of our media makes it a little easier to digest some more adult content than I might be on the screen.

You're pretty much restricted to imagining things you've already been exposed to, so the violence is never more gory than your mind allows for, and the sex isn't going to be giving anyone much of an anatomy lesson unless you are presenting your child with books that come with helpful charts.

I think that's a fairly good modulating force because it means everyone pretty much self-censors the "images" that come out of the book to the level that they are presently comfortable with and have had previous exposure to. At worst, a book is going to peak someone's curiosity and/or give them ideas, but that's not necessarily a bad thing for a person's development.

I've seen some disturbing things online and in movies, but I've never felt disturbed reading a book (excepting some things I've read about WWII medical experimentation on the part of the Germans and Japanese, but that's largely down to it being actual history vs fiction, which loses most of its impact by virtue of it not being real).

[Avaleigh]

I have all of the Stark kids aged up in my head including Jon.

I don't have as much of an issue with the ages of the Lannister children or Shireen although I like that Myrcella was aged up a bit. With Joffrey it was a little odd that Cersei was Queen Regent until the purple wedding since on the show he seemed like he was of age by season 2 or 3. Aging Tommen I'm a bit more on the fence about.

ETA

I feel super fortunate that I was allowed to read anything I was interested in as a kid. I think for advanced readers that's the best way. JMO.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Avaleigh

[ambi76]

I got my paws on a VC Andrews (no, not "Flowers in the Attic" but "My Sweet Audrina" which is worse) at age 11/12 or so and, well, to be honest ... it "made me" a kinky little perv. At least that's what I like to tell myself. ;o) 

 

I don't think GRRM's (intentionally!) hilarious sex scenes would have caused anything but lols, but the great injustices of the ASOIAF world would have made me very angry back then, I think, and the gore would have put me off majorly, but I'm extremely squeemish there still.

Edited July 29, 2015 by ambi76

[ambi76]

So most of the time I pretend that Jon is like 25, Ayra is about 18, etc.... but that becomes harder to handle with Sansa lol - still I can put her at about 20 and make it work.

 

Wow. That sounds way too old for me for those characters. They are not supposed to be adults (yet). That's important I think. Yes, GRRM went too far in the other direction but the two/ three years older thing the show did is sufficient IMHO (6-18 is okay, 3-15 is a bit ridiculous). As they also shouldn't be toddlers (Hello Rickon?)/young kids but rather adolescents/youth.

 

With GRRM's original five years timeline (of which he has only managed half yet for some *cough* reasons) the kids will be 8-20 at the end of the tale, which doesn't sound so bad anymore. Yeah, I'm with the this will definitely be eight books not seven faction.

Edited July 29, 2015 by ambi76

[SeanC]

Sometimes Sansa causes me problems for this reason.  To deal with the ages, I kind of decided that years don't mean the same thing in Westerous that they mean to us.  I mean they have Summers and Winters that last for generations so why should we assume a year equals 365 days?  So most of the time I pretend that Jon is like 25, Ayra is about 18, etc.... but that becomes harder to handle with Sansa lol - still I can put her at about 20 and make it work. If I completely ignore that bit about her getting her moon's blood that is, but that's a small thing to overlook. :)

I really don't see, even if you ignore her period, how Sansa could be read as 20.  She is very clearly a girl on the edge of puberty, in worldview and her emotional state, when the story starts.

Edited July 29, 2015 by SeanC

[nksarmi]

Wow. That sounds way too old for me for those characters. They are not supposed to be adults (yet). That's important I think. Yes, GRRM went too far in the other direction but the two/ three years older thing the show did is sufficient IMHO (6-18 is okay, 3-15 is a bit ridiculous). As they also shouldn't be toddlers (Hello Rickon?)/young kids but rather adolescents/youth.

 

With GRRM's original five years timeline (of which he has only managed half yet for some *cough* reasons) the kids will be 8-20 at the end of the tale, which doesn't sound so bad anymore. Yeah, I'm with the this will definitely be eight books not seven faction.

I may have exaggerated a bit, because I'm no longer thinking of the kids as they started in GoT, but in how they are now. But frankly, I'm not even sure how much time has passed between book 1 and book 5.  It probably feels longer than it really has been in book time.

 

So I feel like Jon and Robb could have believably moved from late teens to early 20s over the course of the five books (well Robb didn't because he died - but if he had been even 19 or 20 while leading that war, I still think people would have called him a child).  Whereas I think in reality Jon is supposed to be all of what 14 or 15 when he assumes leadership of the Night's Watch?  That just works so much more in my head if he's at least 19/20.  I also think it would be less "surprising" if Jon was a virgin at 19 or 20 than at 14 or 15.  I mean really, in GRRM's world, has every 15 year old boy bedded tons of girls?

 

In all honesty, Sansa even seems young to me at 12.  I think she could have easily been 13 or 14 when the books started and still just come late to her moon's blood and it would bother me a lot less if these men were now oogling a 16 year old than the reality of the age he setup.  Grant it, at 12, I looked much much older, but that is so not the norm.

 

But Ayra and Bran just don't work for me as anything younger than tweens at least.  I know Ayra is supposed to pass for a boy, but some 14 year old girls can do that.  All in all, I think it's just weird to write children like they are pretty much adults.  I don't see why he didn't add five years to all the kids ages right from the get go so I just kind of do that in my head. 

I really don't see, even if you ignore her period, how Sansa could be read as 20.  She is very clearly a girl on the edge of puberty, in worldview and her emotional state, when the story starts.

Like I said, that's how I view her NOW - but again, to me it feels like years have passed since GoT began in the story. If it's less, I shouldn't age her up that much.

[Protar]

I may have exaggerated a bit, because I'm no longer thinking of the kids as they started in GoT, but in how they are now. But frankly, I'm not even sure how much time has passed between book 1 and book 5.  It probably feels longer than it really has been in book time.

 

It's been

2 and a half years or thereabouts. The story starts in 298 AC and the Purple Wedding takes place on 300 AC.

[ambi76]

Yeah, ADWD ends in the third quater of the year 300 AL.

Roslin is about to give birth and conceived at the very end of the year 299 AL.

 

Heh. Always fun that some say AC (After Conquest) and others AL (After Landing).

Edited July 29, 2015 by ambi76

[Hecate7]

I may have exaggerated a bit, because I'm no longer thinking of the kids as they started in GoT, but in how they are now. But frankly, I'm not even sure how much time has passed between book 1 and book 5.  It probably feels longer than it really has been in book time.

 

So I feel like Jon and Robb could have believably moved from late teens to early 20s over the course of the five books (well Robb didn't because he died - but if he had been even 19 or 20 while leading that war, I still think people would have called him a child).  Whereas I think in reality Jon is supposed to be all of what 14 or 15 when he assumes leadership of the Night's Watch?  That just works so much more in my head if he's at least 19/20.  I also think it would be less "surprising" if Jon was a virgin at 19 or 20 than at 14 or 15.  I mean really, in GRRM's world, has every 15 year old boy bedded tons of girls?

 

In all honesty, Sansa even seems young to me at 12.  I think she could have easily been 13 or 14 when the books started and still just come late to her moon's blood and it would bother me a lot less if these men were now oogling a 16 year old than the reality of the age he setup.  Grant it, at 12, I looked much much older, but that is so not the norm.

 

But Ayra and Bran just don't work for me as anything younger than tweens at least.  I know Ayra is supposed to pass for a boy, but some 14 year old girls can do that.  All in all, I think it's just weird to write children like they are pretty much adults.  I don't see why he didn't add five years to all the kids ages right from the get go so I just kind of do that in my head. 

Like I said, that's how I view her NOW - but again, to me it feels like years have passed since GoT began in the story. If it's less, I shouldn't age her up that much.

 

 

You're probably right, but Sansa's not meant to be the norm anyway. She's actually remarked on as having a very womanly figure for her age.

[Eegah]

This should be pretty helpful to anyone climbing the Wall.

 

[Delta1212]

This should be pretty helpful to anyone climbing the Wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDIF6fzC7vM

That seems more like taking the elevator.

[plurie]

There's a better app, A WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE, that lets you set the spoiler level. It includes a map and character/house index. You buy each book separately. I don't remember what it costs, but I think it's worth the money.

[Mya Stone]

Shimpy, where in the world is Carmen Sandiego? I mean have you made more progress? I think I'm still about 100 pages ahead of you, and want to double check so I don't go opening my big fat mouth where I shouldn't. ;)

[Seerow]

Protar - off topic question but anyone else can feel free to join in - I have an 11 (going on 12) year old who is a very advanced reader.  I just recently noted that the Divergent and Hunger Games series are rated at about a 5th/6th grade reading level on AR tests.  How did the sex/violence of Game of Thrones register to you at 13?  I'm wondering when I should just let her read adult books and forget about "age appropriate" content (not that I'm going to let her read 50 shades or anything like that.....).

 

Personally I'd be uncomfortable giving an 11-12 year old ASOIAF. I mean... nothing there is too over the top, but I remember being around that age and being given a book by my mother who apparently forgot there was some graphic sex scenes in the novel... it was super awkward (though to this day I'm not sure if that wasn't just her way of having the birds/bees talk :P). I'd personally recommend Wheel of Time, Stormlight Archives, and Mistborn as more adult novels without the same level of sex/violence. I also love recommending the Kingkiller Chronicles, but there is a fair bit of sex in the second book (though pretty sure it's overall less graphic than ASOIAF).

 

 

Um... sorry, I'll get out of here with my off-topicness now.

[stillshimpy]

Shimpy, where in the world is Carmen Sandiego? I mean have you made more progress? I think I'm still about 100 pages ahead of you, and want to double check so I don't go opening my big fat mouth where I shouldn't. ;)

 

Sorry, sorry! Back soon :-)  I literally don't have a kitchen sink at present and my husband will be in Tiny Town Texas for a week (more likely a month) so I am down the remodeling/contract systems rabbit hole big time right at the moment.  However, I should have bloody well nothing but time to read this coming week, as the fence guys, the kitchen guys will all be here while I'm unable to do so much as anything other than take a slug out of bottle of water.  

 

I'll send you photos of the chaos on FB, Mya and you'll reply "Oh shit, play through.  Carmen Sandiego ought to be doing shots of Cuervo or downing Xanax at a bare minimum" ....back by tomorrow evening ....after sending Husband Unit off to Texas.  

 

Or you know, to keep it in the verbage of the story: Dude, my keep is under Siege.  Back after I repel the enemy! 

[Haleth]

I feel your pain. Been there, blah blah. It's worth it in the end when you look at it and think, Julia Child, eat your heart out.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, this my fourth kitchen remodel in ten years and I've learned one very key thing, never, ever do the kitchen and a master bath at the same time.  

 

Did that once.  Never again.  Hated life.  All of it.  Also, it was a house built in 1912 so I feel certain I inhaled something truly dreadful, that will lead to my demise from something Edwardian and wasting.  

 

I've hit the Dolorous Edd portions of the proceedings, if that's not obvious.  A bear that made a necklace from his brother's teeth, eh?  Now that's a talented bear.  A bear like that would come in handy.   

 

Can I just how pleased I am to discover that The Others are rumored to do things like breed with humans?  Mindless Zomboni type things that look like they are carved from the bark of some particularly arctic tree, and howl as a means of saying "Howdy" just aren't as interesting as things with psychedelic armor and grim senses of humor.  

 

Craster's was about as fun as I thought it was going to be, and so much harder on sheep than I was anticipating.  On the upside though. Arya's adventures with that bastard The Tickler were far less harrowing than I was expecting.  Still terribly upsetting, but the show went all Chainsaw Murder weirdo on that situation.  So the one place they rendered rather faithfully was Harrenhal: Derelict Pile of the Kingdoms.  Thanks, Show.  

 

But I've arrived at Qarth after being treated to another round of why Tyrion is good at his job, and WHAT THE BLOODY HELL HAPPENED WITH THORNE.  Gods, green algae, incidental mange and multiple swear words, would it really have been that flapping difficult to convey some of that?  Holy crap, I will never understand why that wasn't covered.  It was nice to see Tyrion and Littlefinger having something of a grudge-match over that dagger stuff (another thing the show was a bit too murky about, for no reason I can fathom). 

 

Oh and Theon, keep your hands off your sister, dude.  Really, there's far too much of that on this show, although at least he had the decency to be appalled by learning that he'd mistakenly tried to get it on with a close blood relative.  When Theon is your moral compass for interpersonal family dynamics involving emotional intimacies that preclude physical ones, you may be in truly Desperate Times. 

 

So I did read about Dorreah and was momentarily puzzled by her death, as a loyal friend to Dany, and still valued as such.  I guess it was a characterization decision for Dany?  To explain why she was so untrusting of everyone and grew more and more removed?  It's not like she needed more reason, but as for why they would do that to the actress, that's actually doing her a giant favor.  Being at the heart of a meaty betrayal plot, rather than the faithful handmaiden who turns up her toes and dies of desert consumption at the first stiff wind, makes for a better acting resume.  Using an actor for more and varied work usually means that they liked them quite a bit, if they are given a far more interesting death.   Dying like Boo Radley, the weenie version, without any heroics just doesn't make for a good audition reel, I guess. 

 

I'll just be over here mourning how little they were able to render Qarth.   I know, the page never suffers from budget constraints and therefore so many things are possible, but what a shame.  Also, it's always fun to read Dany's version of the Westerosi history.  The Usurper's Hounds.  Oh my.  Dead eyed and cold hearted Ned Stark, eh?  The guy who was ready to drop Robert like a bad habit of too many years for wanting her murdered.   Oh Dany.  Not that I blame her, but I do look forward to the day she has to face "No seriously, wow, had your father gone NUTS,  Flambed nuts, actually."  

 

Dany's locations are a million times more interesting than poor series Dany, trudging about in dust and wearing the same blue dress/pantsuit/ suspiciously-like-gauchos getup for roughly ever.  

[Delta1212]

Yeah, the locations in general probably suffer the most on the show simply because I'm not sure you could render them faithfully even on a major film budget, but I do think Dany's suffer the most consistently.

[Dev F]

But I've arrived at Qarth after being treated to another round of why Tyrion is good at his job, and WHAT THE BLOODY HELL HAPPENED WITH THORNE.  Gods, green algae, incidental mange and multiple swear words, would it really have been that flapping difficult to convey some of that?  Holy crap, I will never understand why that wasn't covered.  

 

It's rather baffling, isn't it? Even if they couldn't get the actor back or didn't think they had time for a whole big sequence with Thorne, they could've put the whole issue to bed by tweaking like two lines in one of the Small Council scenes early in the season: "A raven flew in messenger arrived this morning from Castle Black. . . . Cold winds are rising, and the dead rise with them. . . . According to the Commander this Ser Alliser, one of these dead men attacked him the Lord Commander in his chambers."