S03.E22: Before You Go Make Sure You Know

[Sutton]

Thanks for explaining it all, because us layman are all confused on how easy it was for Juliette to just go to another label. Does Rayna have any recourse on getting the music Juliette has already given Luke?

[Soup333]

I would love if they had actually done a realistic story about Juliette having PPD to raise awareness or a realistic story about Juliette dealing with a woman after-baby with the music industry, but they just used it to turn her into a pregnant woman cliche and unlikable bitch destroying every good thing she has in her life.

 

Depression means hating yourself, it doesn't mean becoming totally irrational and lashing out against others.

 

They took so much time to turn Juliette into a person who had gone through so much and everybody was rooting for, they spend so much time turning Avery turning into a person everybody was rooting for, that relationship bringing out the best in them, all the other relationships, Juliette and Rayna, Juliette and Deacon - they did all of them such a disservice with the way they played out this storyline. Not to mention that if they want to portray the music industry they can't just make shit up. Juliette can't just hop labels like that.

 

That baby prop is so so fake. At least don't do any close ups with such a fake baby! It's hard to watch these scenes because it is so obvious Avery is cradling a plastic doll. That hospital rooftop is bizarre. Give them a crappy hallway in a hospital huddled on the floor. Much better scene.

 

 

All of this, but especially the bolded. Fake baby Cadence is creeping me out. Real baby girl is adorable though. And that scene would have been great if they'd been somewhere in the hospital. 

 

 

Nashville has exactly the same problem as Empire in this regard. A lot of the drama requires artists and producers and labels to have constantly shifting allegiances, with contracts seemingly being able to be torn up at a moment's notice, and by one side only. But real-world recording contracts have been carefully drafted by very expensive lawyers exactly to make that kind of thing impossible. (In one particularly ludicrous this-can-never-happen plot twist on Empire, they even have one artist on whom the label has already spent a huge amount of money turn out to have never signed a contract at all.)

 

(Throughout, "label" here means "record company", not to be confused with what in print publishing is called the "imprint", IOW just a product name that's put on the boxes. Vanity labels are an example of this, they're in reality just subsidiaries of a larger company. But large record companies also often use different imprints for different genres of music, which are sometimes loosely referred to as "labels".)

 

Which artist was this? I can't remember.

 

 

Also, to clarify, an imprint in print publishing isn't just a name on a box. It's a branded division of a larger publisher that produces a certain kind of book. For example the Simon and Schuster children's imprint Little Simon won't publish adult novels. It's the same with record label imprints, I believe.

Rayna started her own, small record label. She's not big enough to have imprints yet. There are plenty of small print publishers like that as well, though many have been gobbled up by large companies and then become imprints of those. I'd like to know what Rayna's vision for her label is. Bucky has mentioned artists who don't fit the Hwy65 brand, but I have no idea what her brand actually is.

 

Thanks for all of the legal/contractual explanations. I was thinking about Rayna/Juliette and how they are going to resolve the issue of her jumping ship from HW65 in S4. And I was concerned about Avery's money. LOL. Who's going to pay for those songs/half-finished albums he produced! Seems like he always gets burned on the money end of things. Scarlett didn't finish her album and Sadie didn't finish hers either. He quits the band and Gunnar and Scarlett blow up, get a contract and then ignore him. Not necessarily in that order, but still. Then his wife, whose album was surefire employment, ups and finishes the thing without him! Oy. 

 

I'm glad for the clarification about imprints because I was wondering what the difference was between what Jeff offered Juliette when he was trying to get her to come back to Edgehill and what Rayna had with HW65. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by Soup333

[madam magpie]

Sutton: It depends on who owns the masters per her contract with Rayna. I have no idea, but I guess we'll find out next season...maybe?

My story guess would be that given how upset Rayna was about not having creative control of her own music at Edgehill, she gave Juliette more in a quest for artistic integrity. And that's great! I love the idea of Rayna as the businessperson with a conscience, but I mean...so far, the message is "integrity = poor business skills." She ought to be able to have both.

Soup: Poor Avery does seem to have terrible luck at timing and picking musicians, doesn't he? My guess would be that Rayna paid him for work with Scarlett and Sadie. Juliette is just a disaster all around! No idea. Maybe he can get it in spousal support?

Edited May 18, 2015 by madam magpie

[Soup333]

Maybe they can do a reunion show at the Bluebird with all the Exes, a la the Dreamgirls finale. "There weren't just two Exes, there were three." They can even invite Zoey, since she's an ex now too.

[SailingBy]

Which artist was this? I can't remember.

Hakeem Lyon. Supposedly, the label was spending absurd amounts of money on his as yet non-existent career. In ep. 5, it is claimed that just the video for his debut single was already "about a million dollars over budget", Now a budget of a milion, total, would already be preposterous for any video (especially the kind of video that is shown being made - just studio stuff in front of a greenscreen), but going a million dollars over budget? How big was that budget? This would be the most expensive music video ever made. And that's just the video for one single, not any of the production costs for an entire album. But then cue forward to the season finale. Hakeem can jump labels without any problem, because: "I never signed any contracts". Apparently, nobody in that company's financial and legal department, a company that's supposedly able to go public and get a NYSE listing, spotted that they were spending all this money on a guy they have no contract with. Because he's his daddy's son, apparently.

 

But then, Empire also has Jamal successfully getting the head of a rival label to sign over all rights to his dad's music, with a contract and a pen he's brought along for the purpose, by dangling him off a tall building and threatening to kill him unless he signs, all in full view of a large party of people. In comparison, Nashville is a haven of sanity and realism.

[slasherboy]

 Wouldn't Scarlett be next of kin for both Beverly and Deacon?

 

Maddie would be Deacon's next of kin.

[slasherboy]

I want to speak up on behalf of the luxury waiting room in the hospital.  When I lived in Los Angeles I worked at the UCLA Medical Center.  Because it obviously treated many stars, celebrities and other rich people, the top floor, appropriately the penthouse, actually did cater to these people and the entire floor was indeed first class.

 

I can't tell if you any hospitals here in Nashville have a floor like UCLA's penthouse, but I would bet at least one does.  If Keith Urban needed surgery, for instance, I just can't imagine Nicole Kidman sitting in a regular waiting room with the unwashed masses waiting for word from the doctors.  One time I got on the elevator and rode to the top floor because I was curious.  The minute the elevator doors opened I was approached by a guard who asked what my business was.  I stuttered something like "oops!" and quickly pushed "down".

 

Just a little OT comment.  I was working at the UCLA Medical Center when Rock Hudson was diagnosed with AIDS and that's where he went for treatment.  He not only stayed on the penthouse floor, but was taken up by a private, secret elevator and was admitted under a fake name.  We couldn't even acknowledge his presence there if we were contacted by the media.  Good times!

Edited May 19, 2015 by slasherboy

[Quof]

I was working at the UCLA Medical Center when Rock Hudson was diagnosed with AIDS and that's where he went for treatment.  He not only stayed on the penthouse floor, but was taken up by a private, secret elevator and was admitted under a fake name.  We couldn't even acknowledge his presence there if we were contacted by the media.  Good times!

Um, Hudson's HIPAA rights survive his death, slasherboy, and you just violated them.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

It's public knowledge that Rock Hudson had AIDS and was treated at UCLA so I think slasherboy will be okay!

[SailingBy]

Um, Hudson's HIPAA rights survive his death, slasherboy, and you just violated them.

I doubt that anyone could violate any HIPAA rights by relating some minor organizational details about one of several hospitalizations Rock Hudson went through, and that were widely covered by the media at the time. Even his wikipedia entry mentions his stay at UCLA Medical Center, with two contemporary newspaper reports as the cited source. The whole subject was also covered in detail in his authorized biography, posthumously published - the only condition he imposed on the writer, in his dying days, was: "Tell the truth". And that hospitals with celebrity patients try to keep them out of general sight, often admit them under fake names, or have a general 'no comment' policy for staff, is hardly a revelation. (Of course in his case, Rock Hudson was already a fake name.)

 

ETA: I forgot to add something earlier. I don't know how things are in the States, but where I live, hospitals, especially the more recently built ones, do often have places where visitors and non-roombound patients can hang out, that are as pleasant and as least hospital-like as they can make them. A nicely-appointed waiting room, or a rooftop cafeteria like the one shown, didn't seem strange to me at all.

Edited May 19, 2015 by SailingBy

[Sandman]

I'm not sure minors can be officially named as next of kin; Maddie's a closer relative than Scarlett, but not an adult.

The storyline for Jeff and Layla is all over the damn place, and it feels like two or three steps backward to me. "Okay, but not all at the same time" was the problem with the way Layla was written for most of the last two seasons.

[madam magpie]

I think too that Deacon would likely have given Rayna power of attorney by this point. I'm willing to assume that without seeing a scene about it because they've been so open with each other about other things. I suspect he wouldn't want his young daughter or niece to be the ones dealing with whatever complications might arise. For all I know, he convinced Beverly of the same thing, though that does seem odd. If we think Nashville cares about the law, we have to assume something happened to Deacon since Dr. Dork was talking to Rayna. If we don't, it could be anything. I tend toward the latter idea...

Edited May 19, 2015 by madam magpie

[SailingBy]

Maddie would be Deacon's next of kin.

Sorry, but, why would she be? Unless I've missed something major, she's legally Rayna and Teddy's daughter. Would she even be considered a relative of Deacon's at all? Maybe Tennessee law is weird, but I know she wouldn't be legally family of any kind where I live. Biological parentage doesn't come into it. How would a hospital even be able to know about that, anyway?

 

[thaliasghost]

She also tried but failed to sign Will, a man who was trying very hard not to say anything.

 

I had to go back to look at some old episodes to check something I vaguely remembered. As always the legal details remain murky, but what it looks most like to me is that Highway 65 (or however they spell it) was originally set up as Rayna's vanity label, as a subsidiary of Edgehill. Or at least bound to Edgehill by so many contractual obligations that it might as well be wholly owned by it. Thus, she could later buy it off Edgehill.

 

I had to laugh so much. True.

 

When Edgehill is dissolved, she decided not to sign any male artists because they don't fit what she wants and then signs Layla because Jeff basically tells her that she is a sucker for women with something to say and thus, she signs Layla.

Gunnar is a woman with something to say? Who knew?!

If I were guessing, I'd say her brand was artists looking for refuge, which is, of course, what she said she wanted. But that's not a sound, and it's fairly limiting. If she's open to diverse sounds under that umbrella, I'd like to see them. If she's not, I'd like to hear why. This kind of discussion is one way to make Rayna seem good at her job.

 

Yeah...it was too late to back out of that sentence when I remembered Gunnar.

 

But Rayna clearly wanted to give artists a real home, not just a corporation making money out of them. So that is her intention behind the label much more than a sound.

[thaliasghost]

I want to speak up on behalf of the luxury waiting room in the hospital.  When I lived in Los Angeles I worked at the UCLA Medical Center.  Because it obviously treated many stars, celebrities and other rich people, the top floor, appropriately the penthouse, actually did cater to these people and the entire floor was indeed first class.

 

I can't tell if you any hospitals here in Nashville have a floor like UCLA's penthouse, but I would bet at least one does.  If Keith Urban needed surgery, for instance, I just can't imagine Nicole Kidman sitting in a regular waiting room with the unwashed masses waiting for word from the doctors.  One time I got on the elevator and rode to the top floor because I was curious.  The minute the elevator doors opened I was approached by a guard who asked what my business was.  I stuttered something like "oops!" and quickly pushed "down".

 

Just a little OT comment.  I was working at the UCLA Medical Center when Rock Hudson was diagnosed with AIDS and that's where he went for treatment.  He not only stayed on the penthouse floor, but was taken up by a private, secret elevator and was admitted under a fake name.  We couldn't even acknowledge his presence there if we were contacted by the media.  Good times!

 

 

This is everything what is wrong with the US/world. Just disgusting.

[thaliasghost]

Is Layla 21? Even if she is, I think she could get out of that contract because Jeff is so much older, they are involved and he clearly exerted influence over her. Not equal bargaining powers.

 

They said she was 18 when she married Will and have referred to her several times as being 20. Yet, she joins Jeff in a bar and orders a drink. I'm not American, but isn't it that she likely wouldn't have even gotten into that place without being carded? (I'm not sure her fame or being known in Nashville would gain her entry?)

Edited May 19, 2015 by thaliasghost

[aradia22]

So now Jeff is implying there's a "kernel of truth" in the negative comments about Layla and isolating her from the outside world and feeding her things to say. Oh yeah. This is a totally healthy relationship. I do not know why they bothered trying to sell us on a romance in the first place. If it was just to set up this nonsense...

 

So the show has pushed it to the place where there's something wrong with Juliette. I mean, they've been very clear about her refusing to say Cadence's name and that kind of thing. But without that, I'm not quite sure I agree that she shouldn't be able to go back to work if she can afford help to take care of her child. If she's feeling healthy then I don't really think she should be forced to care for her child or bond with it in a way that meets other people's standards.

 

I think perhaps part of the reason I don't hate Beverly that much is because she antagonizes Rayna. I loved her in that scene with Deacon and the girls. She'd Single White Female Rayna if she could.

 

I was waiting for this conversation between Will and Kyle Dean Massey. Poor Will. You could see it when he was talking to his dad in the hotel room. He's still that boy wanting his father's love and approval.

 

LOL, Nashville, you stupid show. Why would Juliette go to Jeff of all people? Do you remember the shame sex and the paternity drama? Not to mention all the fights they had before that. What what what are you doing?

 

I don't support the Juliette who throws things but from an acting/soap level I love the Juliette who throws things. And of course this is the one time that Avery reacts badly. Don't you do it, Nashville. Don't you break them up.

 

Awwww, Will! Does this mean an end to all the Will being in the closet storylines? Praise Jesus!

 

I don't know how long all of this will last as it is but I like them setting up Rayna and Juliette on opposite sides again. On the same team they didn't bother really giving them a mutual opponent and they still had them fight which made no sense for the show.

 

Boo. I'm mad about Avery giving up on Juliette.

 

WHAT ARE YOU DOING, NASHVILLE? Layla forgives Jeff? That's how you want to end things?

[Woebegone]

 

I was waiting for this conversation between Will and Kyle Dean Massey.

 

I like how you never call him Kevin. It's like he's your Oliver Hudson!

 

I'm going to give the writers the benefit of the doubt with Jeff/Layla and I'm going to believe that they intended for us to be as disgusted as we are. But my main reservation is how unsympathetic they've made Layla in order to get us here. I mean, when Will was using her, you could understand why, given the circumstances, she would fall for it. And even when Jeff got her kicked off Jade's tour, you could kind of understand how she'd fall for that too. But when she finds out about it and still forgives him? That was the moment when I just felt like I couldn't care anymore. She deserves what she gets.

[aradia22]

 

Just when I started liking Layla, she lets Jeff off the hook. He's such a creep. Layla, you claim you're not stupid. Read your damn contract before signing it.

She was reading it. But then he distracted her with his BS and implying she's fat. I think the writers were trying to say that even smart women can be manipulated and Layla is certainly prey to insecurities but the problem with Nashville is they're subtle on points that don't need subtlety and you have to infer and give them the benefit of the doubt whereas elsewhere they bash you over the head with what they're trying to say. I know that was a long run-on sentence but I'm too tired to fix it right now.

 

I was waiting for Avery to get in a car crash in his final scene. What restraint they showed!

Oh good. Not just me then.

 

Good lord. I really wish this show were actually about women in the music biz. It would be so great.

Preach.

[aradia22]

 

I have mostly sympathy for Juliette. (I'm postpartum myself so keeping an eye out for signs of PPD or postpartum psychosis or postpartum anxiety/OCD.) Her body and hormones are doing messed up stuff to her. But I also feel frustration that she won't listen and get help. She needs help. And I don't know who she will listen to about it if not Avery. This show likes to have break downs on stage, though, so I'm guessing that's where this will end up.

I'm also sympathetic, and even more sympathetic for Hayden than Juliette because they've been shitting on her from the start on Nashville. I could have sworn she was going to have a breakdown during her performance at the end of the finale.

[aradia22]

 

Purely hypothetically, of course, but: only if they insist on keeping him within the narrow confines of the country music industry. To me, the kind of songs he's been singing (or at least the ones I've downloaded) seem like fairly generic stuff, sung by a guy with a cowboy hat on. Ditch the stupid hat, and there's no need for him to be country.

They did that with Juliette for a hot second before she decided she needed to come back to country music because pop was too crazy. I continue to find it funny that most of the artists/songs on Nashville are more folk/singer songwriter or pop and yet they pretend pop music is all insanity like Jade St. James. 

 

So much competition for this year's Horrible Parent designation. Last season's champion, Beverly Claybourne, opted out of the contest this year and decided to become an all-round bitch to her family. Will's dad made a late, half-ass entry but he didn't stand a chance with competitors like Kiley and Layla's MIA parents, who couldn't be bothered to give so much as one single fuck when their daughter was hospitalized. Former Mayor Teddy Conrad also threw his hat in the ring by selling his daughter's soul to Jeff Fordam. Lucky for Maddie, Rayna rescued her from Jeff's misogynistic clutches.  Despite the shockingly brilliant display of complete detachment given by first-time mother Juliette Barnes, she is disqualified on the grounds of the sudden and complete delusion of the show's writers.

Bahahaha. I will remember this the next time the writers try to lecture us on good parenting.

 

 

The problem here is simply that there is no alternative to them getting back together except for keeping up this will-they-won't-they drama for all eternity. Like it or not, people need to get it through their head that they are each other's only true loves. That's the narrative the show has set and it will absolutely never go away.

The way the writers are cynically and haphazardly massacring their characters in order to keep them artificially estranged borders on the insane.

Agreed. I don't mind them together at all. It's the last sentence and all Gunnar's man pain that bothers me. You have two actors who, let's be honest, aren't great who have rather boring characters. Just let them sing their cute duets and don't involve them in the story too much. It's not like you don't know how to keep people on the bench *cough Daphne cough*.

 

I'm curious how they are going to get out of that with Oliver Hudson teasing that he won't even be on Season 4.

He's a dad on Scream Queens but that could mean anything.

[aradia22]

 

I have no words about the character assassination of Juliette. PPD is serious not cartoony. A little bit of nuance and subtlety would have helped this story line tremendously. Instead, she is throwing snow globes and stomping around every office in Nashville.

Aside from Nashville always having to dump on Juliette, I know that Hayden could have acted the crap out of a subtle storyline and made me cry again during this finale. Instead, I was bored. 

 

Convenient to have Teddy out of the way now though so the girls can live full time with Deacon and Rayna in their marital bliss.

I hope Daphne sticks to her guns (that she only acquired recently). 

 

I know that this keeps happening to women in the music industry over and over regardless of how capable and smart they are (just think Kesha/Dr. Luke) I just don't like it played out this way with them.

The thing is Nashville is so unrealistic in so many ways. So why do they choose supposed "realism" when it means putting their female characters in terrible situations? I'm counting early Juliette in this. This is one of the reasons I have a problem seeing this show as feminist.

 

I see how they were playing out Jeff's scheming with the house. It made no sense for him to hang out at Layla's apartment all the time until we know now that he was only there to manipulate Layla into ending up a prisoner in his mansion. The moment she signed the contract she was in his house like he planned all along. Or not because they don't know what they are doing with the storyline anyway.

So true.

[thaliasghost]

I like how you never call him Kevin. It's like he's your Oliver Hudson!

 

I'm going to give the writers the benefit of the doubt with Jeff/Layla and I'm going to believe that they intended for us to be as disgusted as we are. But my main reservation is how unsympathetic they've made Layla in order to get us here. I mean, when Will was using her, you could understand why, given the circumstances, she would fall for it. And even when Jeff got her kicked off Jade's tour, you could kind of understand how she'd fall for that too. But when she finds out about it and still forgives him? That was the moment when I just felt like I couldn't care anymore. She deserves what she gets.

 

 

I wasn't here for that but ever since I found out that he is Goldie Hawn's son that is all I see. Is that why people are not calling him by his character name (also confused why everyone thinks of Kate Hudson instead).

 

I don't know but you must all be some sanctimonious tough as nails know it alls. I thought she was pretty smart putting it all together, deleting Rayna's message, figuring it all out. She could have thought "oh he kicked me off the tour because he wants the best for me" and never actually figure all of it out, but she did. She realized he manipulated her into signing her life away and then manipulated her into not finding out about it and isolating her.

 

Layla is very, very young, has no power, has been through a lot and no one but Jeff. Of course we want her to do different things but this is straight up victim blaming. I'm a lot older than Layla and never been the asshole manipulating others but the one being manipulated, I'd like to think people will not call me stupid and hate me for being a human being.

 

Sorry, but Layla is NOT the one at fault here. It is Jeff. I want them together but I hate the abuse of women that is so so prevalent in our society portrayed in such a way because it is dangerous. This storyline makes me feel for Layla, root for her, have people in her corner  not "hate" her. One recap summed it up with "no woman deserves to be treated this way, hell, no one does."

 

Good to know that there are still people who think women "deserve" to be abused because they are "too stupid." Good one, might wanna go preach that in a women's shelter?

Edited May 20, 2015 by thaliasghost

[DeLurker]

I don't know but you must all be some sanctimonious tough as nails know it alls. I thought she was pretty smart putting it all together, deleting Rayna's message, figuring it all out. She could have thought "oh he kicked me off the tour because he wants the best for me" and never actually figure all of it out, but she did. She realized he manipulated her into signing her life away and then manipulated her into not finding out about it and isolating her.

 

Layla is very, very young, has no power, has been through a lot and no one but Jeff. Of course we want her to do different things but this is straight up victim blaming. I'm a lot older than Layla and never been the asshole manipulating others but the one being manipulated, I'd like to think people will not call me stupid and hate me for being a human being.

 

Sorry, but Layla is NOT the one at fault here. It is Jeff. I want them together but I hate the abuse of women that is so so prevalent in our society portrayed in such a way because it is dangerous. This storyline makes me feel for Layla, root for her, have people in her corner  not "hate" her. One recap summed it up with "no woman deserves to be treated this way, hell, no one does."

 

Good to know that there are still people who think women "deserve" to be abused because they are "too stupid." Good one, might wanna go preach that in a women's shelter?

I think the Jeff and Layla story has been very badly written and that is a signicant  part of the viewer frustration.  It's another opportunity to address an important and compelling issue which they are glazing over and jumping tracks repeatedly.  Abuse happens in every segment of the population - they had the opportunity to show how a smart. talented, attractive woman gets caught up in an emotional hurricane that they can't make sense of.

 

They had Layla completely ignored as an artist when Jeff with the head of Edgehill to being her lover/manager/Svengali in about 1/2 a  season with very quick jumps.  They started out by showing her to be a rather ruthless, ambitious, manipulative (I thought) smartypants and in the last  couple of eps she's lost all backbone and commonsense.  The only time Jeff has had any redeeming qualities to me was at the early stage of him and Layla hooking up.  They've shown him manipulating her with all the finesse of a jack hammer. 

 

As viewers, we need to fill in the gaping holes that the writers didn't address.  Not everyone is going to fill them in the same way.  I don't recall anyone saying she "deserves" to be abused, although sentiments along the lines of "too stupid to live" have been expressed which I did not take literally. 

 

I'm curious though - you say Jeff is at fault here, but also you want them to be together.  He's been portrayed as abusive (I think his actions have far exceeded just run of the mill manipulative).  What characteristics do you see in him that makes him redeemable?  Sincere question.

[madam magpie]

This is one of the reasons I have a problem seeing this show as feminist.

This show is not feminist in tone/story. It employs and is run by a lot of women, though, so I'd say it's feminist in practice.

Edited May 20, 2015 by madam magpie

[Soup333]

I don't know but you must all be some sanctimonious tough as nails know it alls. I thought she was pretty smart putting it all together, deleting Rayna's message, figuring it all out. She could have thought "oh he kicked me off the tour because he wants the best for me" and never actually figure all of it out, but she did. She realized he manipulated her into signing her life away and then manipulated her into not finding out about it and isolating her.

 

Damn, thaliasghost. Tell us how you really feel! 

 

They had Layla completely ignored as an artist when Jeff with the head of Edgehill to being her lover/manager/Svengali in about 1/2 a  season with very quick jumps.  They started out by showing her to be a rather ruthless, ambitious, manipulative (I thought) smartypants and in the last  couple of eps she's lost all backbone and commonsense.  The only time Jeff has had any redeeming qualities to me was at the early stage of him and Layla hooking up.  They've shown him manipulating her with all the finesse of a jack hammer. 

 

I'm curious though - you say Jeff is at fault here, but also you want them to be together.  He's been portrayed as abusive (I think his actions have far exceeded just run of the mill manipulative).  What characteristics do you see in him that makes him redeemable?  Sincere question.

 

I would agree that this situation has not been written well. Layla's characterization is all over the place. I don't know which Layla I'm going to get from episode to episode. Or even from scene to scene. To be clear though, I have not liked her since she pulled that stunt on Scarlett in early S2, BUT I don't think she deserves to be treated the way she is being treated by Jeff. I agree completely with Delurker's assessment of her character as she was originally portrayed. And I think she showed hints of being that person in these last few episodes, but it hasn't been consistent. It seems her kryptonite is love, or at least the hope for love. I can't fault her for that really, since damn near everybody on this show has that same problem.

 

Seriously though, why would you want to see them together considering everything? I know that I'm biased because I absolutely LOATHE Jeff for everything he's done/attempted to do to all the female characters on this show AND Gunnar and Will. I'm dead serious when I say that I consider what happened with Juliette a form of assault. She was wasted, but I'd bet you anything he knew exactly what the hell he was doing and was planning his next manipulative move mid-coitus. Nothing about Jade St. John illuminated anything about his character for me, except that he was bitter that she left him. I wouldn't put it past him to have showed concern for Layla while she was in the hospital because he knew that she has no one and she's young, talented, desperate for success and felt that she is someone he can easily manipulate.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Soup333

[madam magpie]

Come on, now. I hate Jeff as much as the best of them, but he didn't assault Juliette. He didn't rape her or even manipulate her. Juliette knew what she doing and she wanted to do it. Yes, she regretted it later, but that's on her, not Jeff. When everything becomes an assault, we minimize the real ones. Juliette can take responsibility for what she did. She doesn't need us to blame Jeff for her decisions in an effort to protect her.

Layla is a completely different story. She's 20 years old, has no life or business experience, no friends, etc. That doesn't mean she's not making choices, though. She absolutely is and at some point she will have to own them. But Jeff is also very clearly manipulating and lying to her in an effort to control her. Does she deserve what she's getting? No, of course not. Is she a poor incapable victim who can't take care of herself? Of course of. She's a young person caught up in some crap and she needs someone with life experience and a soul to help her see what's really going on. Rayna will probably be the one to do that eventually. In a perfect world, that's what families are for. In a realistic world, many people falter and have to learn it in a hard way. But neither Layla nor Juliette is incapable of learning it or owning their part. We shouldn't try to take that power from them either.

Edited May 20, 2015 by madam magpie

[Soup333]

Come on, now. I hate Jeff as much as the best of them, but he didn't assault Juliette. He didn't rape her or even manipulate her. Juliette knew what she doing and she wanted to do it. Yes, she regretted it later, but that's on her, not Jeff. When everything becomes an assault, we minimize the real ones. Juliette can take responsibility for what she did. She doesn't need us to blame Jeff for her decisions in an effort to protect her.

Layla is a completely different story. She's 20 years old, has no life or business experience, no friends, etc. That doesn't mean she's not making choices, though. She absolutely is and at some point she will have to own them. But Jeff is also very clearly manipulating and lying to her in an effort to control her. Does she deserve what she's getting? No, of course not. Is she a poor incapable victim who can't take care of herself? Of course of. She's a young person caught up in some crap and she needs someone with life experience and a soul to help her see what's really going on. Rayna will probably be the one to do that eventually. In a perfect world, that's what families are for. In a realistic world, many people falter and have to learn it in a hard way. But neither Layla nor Juliette is incapable of learning it or owning their part. We shouldn't try to take that power from them either.

 

Don't get me wrong, MM. I didn't say rape. This type of thing is where lines are blurry and mileage varies. And I'm absolutely not trying to take any of the responsibility from Juliette because he didn't drag her back up in that room, but two people are not on equal footing if one is inebriated or under the influence of drugs and the other is sober. He was at least more sober than she was, for sure. People make all kinds of crazy decisions when they are high or drunk and then have regrets later. Happens all the time. And we know that she was operating under some other feelings that factored into what she did. 

[madam magpie]

I just don't buy that, I guess. Not on a show and not in life. Juliette was drunk because she chose to be. She was angry and upset and hurt, and she went looking for a way to feel better. Her way was to get wasted and screw Jeff in a bathroom. She ultimately didn't feel better, of course, but that's what she was trying for. Jeff just agreed to play her game. He may be a self-serving asshole as a result (I think he is), but her decisions aren't his responsibility. That's a paternalistic view of women that I really don't like.

Why is it that when Deacon drinks (out of anger, hurt, etc.), it's his responsibility to control his addiction and own the choices he makes, but when Juliette does it, she's taken advantage of? I expect women to be as responsible for their choices as I do men, both the good and bad choices. I hold them equally accountable and feel as much empathy for the pain that leads to the bad choices. Juliette doesn't get a pass from me because she's a woman who got drunk and had some sex she didn't want. She needs to own that. I do feel awful for how sad she must have been to fall that far, though, just like I do Deacon.

Edited May 20, 2015 by madam magpie

[thaliasghost]

 

 

I'm curious though - you say Jeff is at fault here, but also you want them to be together.  He's been portrayed as abusive (I think his actions have far exceeded just run of the mill manipulative).  What characteristics do you see in him that makes him redeemable?  Sincere question.

 

 

Quick reply because I have no time for more at the moment but lots to say another time.

 

The person I quoted said she "deserved" abuse. Sorry, but no. We make all stupid choices, but no one, NO ONE; not even an abuser, "deserves" abuse.

 

I already said, I'm the world's worst feminist. I was all for Layla/Jeff before they hijacked that storyline and I can't help from wanting to see how that plays out instead of having them both just magically written off.

She's a young person caught up in some crap and she needs someone with life experience and a soul to help her see what's really going on. Rayna will probably be the one to do that eventually.

 

Ah, I wish I had more time today. More later.

 

I'm so looking forward to them hopefully showing that. Just imagine a business meeting with Rayna and Bucky sitting at a table with Jeff/Layla.

[thaliasghost]

Damn, thaliasghost. Tell us how you really feel! 

 

 

Again, I'm gonna take time to reply to that in depth another time (but good thing we have a couple of months for that).

 

I don't like victim blaming. No matter what somebody does/says/thinks that doesn't give somebody else the right to abuse them so that comment pissed me off. You can dislike Layla but to say that she "deserves everything that's coming to her" - no.

 

Again, more on that later, but while I agree that their writing of her character has been a clusterfuck, I do see a character progression here. She wasn't straight up evil, she acted the way she was raised in a ruthless shark tank of a business and then went through a lot of shit growing as a person. I don't see why we can forgive Avery for the jerk he was at the beginning of the show, but not Layla.

 

I'm so sorry for wanting that and I hate myself for that, but I can't help it. I'm wondering if they are going to play the "desperately in abusive love"story or have him immediately drop her for Juliette and reveal it was a strict business move.

[Soup333]

I just don't buy that, I guess. Not on a show and not in life. Juliette was drunk because she chose to be. She was angry and upset and hurt, and she went looking for a way to feel better. Her way was to get wasted and screw Jeff in a bathroom. She ultimately didn't feel better, of course, but that's what she was trying for. Jeff just agreed to play her game. He may be a self-serving asshole as a result (I think he is), but her decisions aren't his responsibility. That's a paternalistic view of women that I really don't like.

Why is it that when Deacon drinks (out of anger, hurt, etc.), it's his responsibility to control his addiction and own the choices he makes, but when Juliette does it, she's taken advantage of? I expect women to be as responsible for their choices as I do men, both the good and bad choices. I hold them equally accountable and feel as much empathy for the pain that leads to the bad choices. Juliette doesn't get a pass from me because she's a woman who got drunk and had some sex she didn't want. She needs to own that. I do feel awful for how sad she must have been to fall that far, though, just like I do Deacon.

 

Okay, so you know I had to go watch that scene again so I could act like I know what I'm talking about. Admittedly, it's not one I throw on and watch for shits and giggles. I don't think Jeff is responsible for her actions at all. But I think he did it with the intention of using it against her later (and for the sex, obviously). It was literally the next day when he approached her about leaving HW65. Now, should he be concerned about her personal relationships and the fallout from their brief affair? No. 

 

I don't know that I've ever made a comment about Deacon's addiction in that sense. I agree with you that folk should be take responsibility for their actions. But people often do OOC and illogical things while they are under the influence and then are later horrified by their actions. Take Deacon backhanding Rayna for example. He would have never done that purposely while sober, but he was drunk at the time.

 

Edited (like 30 minutes later) to add:

 

I'm thinking about it now since this discussion inspired me to watch the last three episodes of the season. Now that I've done so, I question whether Juliette was drunk at all. She told Jeff she was "very, very" drunk that day after, but in the actual episode she got her first drink not too soon before she and Jeff hooked up and she wasn't done drinking it when he sat down next to her. 

 

I always questioned whether Juliette was drunk when she went to Deacon's recovery event. She told him she hadn't been drinking and we never saw her drinking, but she was stumbling all over the place and then sick later on. We now know that that was probably morning sickness (which continued through the night based on a comment she made to Avery in 3.1). 

 

It could be that she wasn't at all drunk the night she slept with Jeff, which actually makes it worse because she was damn near stone cold sober. Could be that she was so distraught over the situation that she appeared to be drunk at the recovery event. Could be that the show was actually concerned about showing a character drinking heavily in the first weeks of her pregnancy. 

 

So. With that all said, I have no choice but to recant my position as far as it relates to her drunkenness and his borderline assault (Don't ever let anybody tell you that Soup doesn't admit it when she's wrong). I still say that he was thinking about blackmailing her in that moment or very soon after. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by Soup333

[madam magpie]

But people often do OOC and illogical things while they are under the influence and then are later horrified by their actions. Take Deacon backhanding Rayna for example. He would have never done that purposely while sober, but he was drunk at the time.

They do, for sure. But no one (well, no one I know) would say Rayna had any responsibility to get out of Deacon's way because he was drunk and might accidentally hit her. I feel the same way about Jeff. That doesn't mean Jeff and Rayna are alike at all. They aren't. It also doesn't mean Juliette and Deacon did horrible, unforgivable things. They didn't (in my mind anyway). But I see Juliette alone as responsible for the fallout of her choice/mistake that night, just as I see Deacon alone as responsible for his choice/mistake. I don't see Juliette as a victim because she was drunk and a man played along.

Jeff is also responsible for his choices; he chose to sleep with Juliette (questionable) and to blackmail her (asshole-y). But I see all of those as separate things. He didn't assault Juliette when he had sex with her, I don't think. He blackmailed her later...maybe he plotted (probably). And maybe some consider than an assault. I wouldn't, but OK.

I think it's a huge mistake for us to blame a man for a woman's actions in the name of feminism or violence prevention or even non-victim blaming. I think you can be both mistreated and responsible, and that in most situations where the circumstances are vague, that's what happened. If we want to get technical, Juliette used Jeff for sex to try to make herself feel better. If she were a man and he a woman, many people would object to that as well.

My biggest issue with the Layla/Jeff pairing is the gross imbalance of power. That leads to the less-powerful participant being mislead and mistreated in ways that are very hard for that person to control. I think Jeff and Juliette are on equal footing when it comes to power.

Edited May 20, 2015 by madam magpie

[Soup333]

I think it's a huge mistake for us to blame a man for a woman's actions in the name of feminism or violence prevention or even non-victim blaming. I think you can be both mistreated and responsible, and that in most situations where the circumstances are vague, that's what happened. If we want to get technical, Juliette used Jeff for sex to try to make herself feel better. If she were a man and he a woman, many people would object to that as well.

 

I should have put my heavily edited reply in a separate post for the sake of continuity. The bolded is what I was attempting to say throughout this discussion, although not as succinctly. 

[DeLurker]

My biggest issue with the Layla/Jeff pairing is the gross imbalance of power. That leads to the less-powerful participant being mislead and mistreated in ways that are very hard for that person to control. I think Jeff and Juliette are on equal footing when it comes to power.

I was intrigued by the initial pairing of Layla & Jeff - they could have been this wonderfully dysfunctional power couple in Nashville.  If they had kept Layla on semi-equal footing with him in terms of go-for-the-throat ambition and have that normally directed outward, but always an undercurrent where they could turn on each other, I would have gladly watched while eating popcorn!  He would have the experience and connections that come with age, but she would have the talent, beauty and youth on her side.

 

But they took a wrong turn and ended up in an abusive relationship territory and not even well done.

[madam magpie]

I always questioned whether Juliette was drunk when she went to Deacon's recovery event. She told him she hadn't been drinking and we never saw her drinking, but she was stumbling all over the place and then sick later on. We now know that that was probably morning sickness (which continued through the night based on a comment she made to Avery in 3.1).

It could be that she wasn't at all drunk the night she slept with Jeff, which actually makes it worse because she was damn near stone cold sober. Could be that she was so distraught over the situation that she appeared to be drunk at the recovery event. Could be that the show was actually concerned about showing a character drinking heavily in the first weeks of her pregnancy.

So. With that all said, I have no choice but to recant my position as far as it relates to her drunkenness and his borderline assault (Don't ever let anybody tell you that Soup doesn't admit it when she's wrong). I still say that he was thinking about blackmailing her in that moment or very soon after.

As someone who's wrong a lot, I say...you're in good company! :) I wouldn't even go so far as to say you were wrong, though. It's just a different point of view.

That's interesting about Juliette maybe not being drunk at Deacon's event. That hadn't occurred to me, but it could be, especially since we've now seen her turn into a crazy person. Maybe she was sober and had pre postpartum depression?!

I tend to be pretty forgiving of most things. The older I get, the more I see that most of these supposed failings people have or their "bad" behaviors are really just borne from fear or an inability to face things. So whatever the circumstances of Juliette's behavior at Deacon's event, I get why she did it. And I empathize with her for how scared and lost she was in that moment. I wish the show would let her own that and evolve, but alas. It's a soap opera.

Re: Jeff/Layla. I don't think they were ever on equal footing. Jeff's what? About 40? Layla is 20-ish years old. No matter what skills and experience she thinks she has, or that she acts like she has, she's got much less power than someone twice her age. Those kinds of relationships involving someone so young always bother me, even when I kind of dig them (Lauren Bacall and Humphrey Bogart, for example).

Edited May 20, 2015 by madam magpie

[Woebegone]

 

The person I quoted said she "deserved" abuse. Sorry, but no. We make all stupid choices, but no one, NO ONE; not even an abuser, "deserves" abuse.

 

Fair enough. I went too far.

 

 

Layla is very, very young, has no power, has been through a lot and no one but Jeff. Of course we want her to do different things but this is straight up victim blaming. I'm a lot older than Layla and never been the asshole manipulating others but the one being manipulated, I'd like to think people will not call me stupid and hate me for being a human being.

 

That's not what I said though and I think you managed to mash what I did say with things other people said. I actually said that it was reasonable that she would be fooled and manipulated by Will and Jeff, given the context. However, what I had very little sympathy for was when she actually forgave and stayed with Jeff at the end, and therefore tacitly condoned everything he had done to her. And I don't accept the argument that she was manipulated into that too, because as you pointed out, she spent the better part of the episode cleverly debunking all of Jeff's lies and getting around his attempt to keep her ignorant. And then she came at him and his car with a golf club. 

 

And so you see, I'm actually saying the opposite. I actually think she's quite sly and thoughtful (I mean, this is the same woman who, on finding out her husband is gay, decided to blackmail him and his manager to further her career instead of asking for a divorce like a normal person) and I think she's decided that letting him put her under his thumb is ok if it means he'll help her get ahead.

[Soup333]

I was intrigued by the initial pairing of Layla & Jeff - they could have been this wonderfully dysfunctional power couple in Nashville.  If they had kept Layla on semi-equal footing with him in terms of go-for-the-throat ambition and have that normally directed outward, but always an undercurrent where they could turn on each other, I would have gladly watched while eating popcorn!  He would have the experience and connections that come with age, but she would have the talent, beauty and youth on her side.

 

But they took a wrong turn and ended up in an abusive relationship territory and not even well done.

 

Too bad it didn't go this way. I probably would have hated it, but it would have been interesting.

 

As someone who's wrong a lot, I say...you're in good company! :) I wouldn't even go so far as to say you were wrong, though. It's just a different point of view.

That's interesting about Juliette maybe not being drunk at Deacon's event. That hadn't occurred to me, but it could be, especially since we've now seen her turn into a crazy person. Maybe she was sober and had pre postpartum depression?!

I tend to be pretty forgiving of most things. The older I get, the more I see that most of these supposed failings people have or their "bad" behaviors are really just borne from fear or an inability to face things. So whatever the circumstances of Juliette's behavior at Deacon's event, I get why she did it. And I empathize with her for how scared and lost she was in that moment. I wish the show would let her own that and evolve, but alas. It's a soap opera.

Re: Jeff/Layla. I don't think they were ever on equal footing. Jeff's what? About 40? Layla is 20-ish years old. No matter what skills and experience she thinks she has, or that she acts like she has, she's got much less power than someone twice her age. Those kinds of relationships involving someone so young always bother me, even when I kind of dig them (Lauren Bacall and Humphrey Bogart, for example).

 

PPPD? 

 

Well, I was wrong about what happened. I would have sworn on a stack of bibles that she was not only drunk, but damn near falling off her chair at that party.  

 

By the time we get to the recovery event, the thing with Jeff had happened three/four weeks prior. She finds out that she's pregnant the day of the Patsy Cline audition, which was the day after that event. If I'd been lying (by omission) to my boyfriend about cheating a few weeks ago and dodging Jeff/trying to get out of my contract, I'd probably be stressed too. 

 

The power imbalance between Jeff and Layla is the similar to the situation Avery was in with that lady manager in S1. She held all the cards in the relationship. And her services were, at least initially, contingent on him sleeping with her. She wasn't manipulating him with love or some other messed up version of it, just the promise of fame. 

 

That same type of imbalance is the only way we've seen Jeff relate to women. Though these were not romantic relationships, he lorded his position as label head over Rayna, Juliette (pre-affair) and Scarlett in various attempts to force them to do what he wanted. 

[madam magpie]

It's really how Jeff relates to everyone. He did it to Teddy too. Jeff is a sleazy bastard, and I'm game for understanding why a person is like that, but there seems to be no effort made to do that on this show. He doesn't even have a tragic past or anything...does he?? (I'm fine with that too. I don't need everyone to be well rounded, though I think he's a boring villain and wish he'd go away.)

[DeLurker]

The tragic past of Jade St. John (is that the name?) is about it...but nothing was ever confirmed as to what happened.  We heard a 25 words or less version from Jeff, but if he told me it was windy in the midst of a tornado I would doubt it.

[SailingBy]

I like how you never call him Kevin. It's like he's your Oliver Hudson!

The character is as yet so flat (in the E. M. Forster Aspects of the Novel sense: a character whose whole existence can be summed up in one sentence - a lot of TV characters are), that we might as well borrow aspects of the real Kyle Dean Massey for the time being, if we want to flesh him out a little bit more in our minds. Unlike with Kevin, we can at least find out some more things about him, and the writers haven't really given him much opportunity to do much more than exude what appears to be his RL personality. I can sort of imagine Kevin Bicks making an It Gets Better video that would be extremely similar to KDM's, for instance (Kevin did refer to being bullied in high school).

 

When I was doing exactly that finding out a bit more, I noticed something: this seems to be the first time he's played gay. It must be awful for an actor to be typecast, and stuck in only playing straight roles. The brave producers of Nashville gave him the opportunity to show he can convincingly portray a gay character, too (besides taking advantage of the guitar lessons the producers of Pippin paid for him to take).

 

ETA: while I'm obsessing about KDM, I might as well throw this in. The only country song I could find him singing on Youtube was Dolly Parton's 'The Grass is Blue', but in awful quality. For some reason, youtube just threw up another version of that same performance in slightly better quality, here. Preceded by a story about how he failed to ever see Dolly, but unbeknownst to him his mother once spent a whole day with her. Can you believe this clip only had 106 views when I saw it, after having been on there for five years? There is no justice in this world. But this is why they should have him singing on Nashville too. And again, I think this might as well be Kevin too.

 

E again TA: that clip was made before he took those guitar lessons I mentioned. He's just strumming chords.

Edited May 22, 2015 by SailingBy

[Woebegone]

The character is as yet so flat (in the E. M. Forster Aspects of the Novel sense: a character whose whole existence can be summed up in one sentence - a lot of TV characters are)

 

Yep. He's the gay Caleb.

 

 

When I was doing exactly that finding out a bit more, I noticed something: this seems to be the first time he's played gay. It must be awful for an actor to be typecast, and stuck in only playing straight roles.

 

Actually, when I was looking him up, I noticed he was on the Good Wife as the partner of a gay defendant. He was also on High Maintenance as a gay actor who plays Fiyero on Broadway (a coincidence, I'm sure). He plays straight a lot on Broadway, but tv is a different story.

[SailingBy]

Actually, when I was looking him up, I noticed he was on the Good Wife as the partner of a gay defendant. He was also on High Maintenance as a gay actor who plays Fiyero on Broadway (a coincidence, I'm sure). He plays straight a lot on Broadway, but tv is a different story.

You're more obsessed than I am! I didn't look at every single itty-bitty guest appeareance. I also didn't count the times he's appeared in online things credited as "himself" as playing gay, because that gets entirely too confusing. Such as the classic Cubby Bernstein sketch starring Nathan Lane, where a bunch of gay guys crammed into a small Broadway dressing room are worrying about whether the show they're in might be too gay to win a Tony. Mercifully, Nathan Lane is the only one who's wearing clothes. (And no, I've never seen a piece of musical theater, ever, with the exception of one West End show my parents dragged me to when I was 11 or 12, and I have a strong aversion to the general genre. But that sketch is very funny.)

Edited May 22, 2015 by SailingBy

[Woebegone]

You're more obsessed than I am! I didn't look at every single itty-bitty guest appeareance. 

 

Haha, it wasn't that tall an order! His screentime on Nashville is probably more than the rest of his tv appearances combined! But I should probably shut the rest of this conversation over to the Cast in Other Roles thread before I get too off-topic.

 

Back to the Finale: I agree with those who said that having Beverly die from a botched donation sends a terrible message to viewers, but on the other hand, I'm not sure what else they can do. They can't kill Deacon and after that cliffhanger, I think the audience will be terribly disappointed if they don't kill someone. 

[thaliasghost]

Still no time on my hands but I thought give the discussion of how the show first started out brilliantly depicting the music industry, then took a turn for soap opera and now is mixing up music industry stereotypes with the character storylines (badly!) here is another "real world" example of women in the music industry just happening:

 

http://jezebel.com/lorde-splits-from-longtime-manager-dont-underestimate-1705882430

Edited May 23, 2015 by thaliasghost