S05.E06: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

[Mya Stone]

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Episode Synopsis: 

Arya trains. Jorah and Tyrion run into slavers. Trystane and Myrcella make plans. Jaime and Bronn reach their destination. The Sand Snakes attack.

[90PercentGravity]

Poor Sansa. She didn't want a man who was kind and gentle and good. Be careful what you wish for.

 

So the dead people become the models for the faceless men? Is Arya going to be recast when she becomes someone else?

 

Tommen is useless. Is another war brewing?

 

A Lannister in custody in Dorne? That can't end well.

 

I guess that answers the question of whether Jorah knew his dad was dead. Tyrion has his wit armour on again.

 

So both Lannister boys had a head chop-off fake.

[gingerella]

A cock merchant? Did I actually hear that correcty?!

Lancel is fast becoming a derranged psycohypocrit, eh?

I grow tired of the holy inquisition already, though Diana Riggs is always good to see, though rather emasculated right now.

You know, I am also growing tired, VERY FUCKING TIRED of the masochistic shitfest that this show has become. I am not sure just how demented and fucked in the head someone has to be to come up with this shit ad infinitum, but its no longer entertaining, not that it ever was. I am nearing my limit.

Edited May 18, 2015 by gingerella

[WhiteStumbler]

How I feel after this episode:

Bowed.

Bent.

Broken.

[stillshimpy]

You know, I am also growing tired, VERY FUCKING TIRED of the masochistic shitfest that this show has become. I am not sure just how demented and fucked in the head someone has to be to come up with this shit ad infinitum, but its no longer entertaining, not that it ever was. I am nearing my limit.

 

Yeah, I'm with you here.  It's actually left "Oh my god, I'm so horrified!" territory and is basically now schtick.  

 

Sure.  Why not?  Theon stands and cries as he has to watch Sansa being raped and humiliated because the only person who is ever punished for having done something wrong is Theon.  Don't mistake me, he did wrong, but the poor whittled creature just constantly having to steep in lemon juice with a full body paper cut isn't horrifying any longer.  It's decidedly lacking in creativity.  As is the "let's drop kick Sansa some more!" game.  

If there's even one sucker among us who thought "Surely he'll help..." and felt anguish I'd be truly surprised.  The story is treating the audience like Ramsay treats Theon.  We're its dog to kick and try to make squirm.   Also, it doesn't even make any friggin' sense, "The North Remembers!"  well fat lot of good that does anyone.  Couldn't any of them have downed enough ginko in a timely enough fashion to do something before Ramsay Bolton got to screw Sansa?  

I mean, come the fuck on, North.  Drug them all senseless and slit their throats while they are sleeping.  Cheat.  It's okay to do that to people that are PEELING YOUR PEERS.  

 

Also, Brienne, what the hell?  Did you come to Winterfell just to loiter in a tower?  "I swore to Lady Catelyn Stark that...."  apparently you wouldn't be able to figure out how to do anything before Sansa was knocked up with the spawn of Ramsay/Satan?  

 

Tommen is too useless to be believed.  He's supposed to be besotted with Margaery.  Olenna mewling away like an outraged kitty and then doing nothing?  Please.  

 

Also, about the only time in my life I've ever been cheering on the grown men to kick the ass of women warriors, but that is also tedious as hell as a story line.  "We're here to avenge Oberyn!  In a way that would piss him off like....whoa....but we're studiously ignoring that and trying to repeat history for no Earthly reason."  

 

One more thing about that idiocy, way to make me cheer on Ellaria Sand's death.  Using Oberyn's children, putting them in harm's way?  WTF?  

 

This entire episode just irked me and the stuff with Sansa is just beyond the damned pale at this point.  Littlefinger's game is just too convoluted to even be fun.  "I'm fucking with everyone, for the fucking fuckery of the fuckingness!"  Um. Okay?  Sure.   

 

Dude, someone completely would have caught on by now that is what he's doing.  

 

The story is doing a lot of wheel spinning and trying to distract from it by just upping the mistreatment of the two or three characters left that are even mildly likable or powerless in this.  

Edited May 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

So what was Cersei's urgent summons to LF all about? He did all the talking.

 

It will be so cool when Dany attends the opening ceremonies of the fighting pits, and after the parade of nations and the obligatory singing of the Mereenese national anthem, out comes our first contender: Jorah the Grey.

 

Can we just put the House of Black and White on hiatus until (not)Arya is ready to do something other than sweep and sponge? It's damned depressing in there, also boring, and Jaqen in a flour sack isn't hot anymore.

 

Sansa's wedding scene was beautiful, though it's odd to be married at night. But she really should have detoured up to the tower and set out the bat light. I guess A Show is saving Brienne for a duel with Stannis.

 

Don't underestimate Lady O. With both of her grandchildren caught in Cersei's web, she's gonna go nuclear. Does Cersei really think she can act innocent like it's all the sparrows' doing?

 

It's funny that the slavers took Tryion's word for the necessity of preserving the whole dwarf -- they could easily have checked. But it did give us the best one-liner of the ep.

 

Is it The End for Elaria and the Snakes? Bye - we hardly knew ye. But what does peacenik Prince Doran want with Ser Jaime?

[stillshimpy]

So what was Cersei's urgent summons to LF all about? He did all the talking.

 

That whole nonsense existed just to give Littlefinger an opportunity to blab that he's got Sansa stored up North.  Lady Olenna being in Kings Landing (his co-conspirator) might lead somewhere at least vaguely interesting.  Other than that the whole thing just showed the strain of being  a story construct and putting plot pieces in place.   I will grant the story this much, it was at least slightly better than the infamous Sexposition at the end of the first season, but only slightly.  

 

 

 

Can we just put the House of Black and White on hiatus until (not)Arya is ready to do something other than sweep and sponge? It's damned depressing in there, also boring, and Jaqen in a flour sack isn't hot anymore.

 

Yeah, they are running a clinic for Euthanasia.  We get it!  Nice establishing material but hopefully they won't revisit it again too soon.  I'm also just sort of feeling grim about the whole affair because I don't want to lose the actor who plays Arya.  I suspect that part of the reason we have Jaqen's face on her trainer is to try and convey that we will see her again, frequently.  

 

One sad, but interesting thing to note is how Littlefinger pretty much set Sansa up for that wedding night on purpose.  Telling Ramsay that "she's suffered enough" was like dangling bacon in front of a bear, Littelfinger knew that.  Making such a fuss about her virginity (when Roose Bolton wouldn't give a hang) was also another chess move and then finally, telling poor freaking Sansa things that would appeal to whatever shade of a romantic left in her (now hopefully dead forever) by telling her Ramsay was already infatuate with her.  Making her feel like she had any power in that setting.  

 

As for Jorah in the fighting pits...now that's the one story that has been well paced, well told and thus far has had pretty decent payoff rather than just doing a lot of "to distract you from some primarily senseless plots: horror! Violence! Ramsay's too horrible to be believable girlfriend! (I mean, even Sansa spotted the "dial it back there, sister" of it all).  

 

We also got some great character development with Jorah so I was thrilled with that too.  Then I remembered that the story went out of its way to afflict him with this dread freaking disease and it was sort of depressing.  Except for one thing:  Is it going to turn out that something about Targaryens can cure Grey Scale?  

 

It could just be evidence of slipshod writing, but they've made that shit so easy to contract and so swift to manifest, that it actually doesn't make sense that anyone ever survives it when there is any kind of outbreak.  It's supposed to be so contagious a freaking doll infected Shireen (but apparently not her father, who presumably touched it long enough to give it to her).  Anyway, a lot of that story makes something resembling sense....even if the way Jorah and Tyrion came to be in each other's company is a bit strained.  

 

I really like the lead guard for the Dorne hanging gardens.  That man's a dead man.  Sorry, dude.  My approbation tends to kill in this story.  

Edited May 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

janjan

Don't underestimate Lady O. With both of her grandchildren caught in Cersei's web, she's gonna go nuclear. Does Cersei really think she can act innocent like it's all the sparrows' doing?

 

Agreed. We mentioned this last week, but Cersei is guilty of killing King Richard (and Lancel "Sparrow" knows that) and also guilty of inbreeding her children. Olenna sure as hell knows this and can get this turned around on her right quick.

As soon as they had Margaery testify, I knew what was going to happen. A Show is predictable this season. I think that's why we're all so glum. That mixed with no good things at all really happening to the "good" characters.

 

janjan

So what was Cersei's urgent summons to LF all about? He did all the talking.

 

We only knew that Cersei was summoning LF from LF. LF could be lying.

[stillshimpy]

As soon as they had Margaery testify, I knew what was going to happen. A Show is predictable this season. I think that's why we're all so glum. That mixed with no good things at all really happening to the "good" characters.

 

Yeah, that's also been bugging me.  It isn't even so much that there's more depressing stuff than usual happening.  It's that they are laying out all these neon arrows for "how it will go from here" that ....if that hold true....are just kind of not what I had come to expect.  Sure, this show upsets me on occasion, but it also usually surprises the hell out of me.  

 

Cersei being daft enough to not realize she's playing with Wildfire and that the weapon she's trying to use against the Tyrells is going to come back and get her just makes her seem dim.  As does doing everything in her power to make sure the Tyrells are just PISSED OFF.  Margaery lording it up in Cersei's face, almost immediately after the wedding didn't fit her known characterization either.  She'd be too careful to blow it before she had produced an heir.  That Ms. "put a baby in my belly" talking there.  

 

Then we also had the scene with Cersei and Jaime about how if he'd been a father to their children, they'd have been stoned in the street.   You've go LF back on the scene in King's Landing, so you can even spot who is likely to set that next butterfly-into-tornado action in motion.  

 

Then we also have things like Olly just doting on Jon, but Jon going off to recruit the Wildlings so you just know that's not going anywhere fun either in terms of how Olly will take it.  

 

I did end up hoping that The Hound would end up being alive and heading towards the only people he thought might have him, the Boltons.  Other than that so much of this season just seems easy to call.   Yes, it was obvious that Theon wouldn't do anything to intervene.  If I'm supposed to think badly of Sansa for not taking Theon's arm, I simply don't.  

 

By the way, this is how over-the-top all that stuff is with Theon: I had to explain to my husband -- who has watched every moment of this show with me -- precisely how many times Theon betrayed Robb, the Starks, sacking Winterfell, etc. etc.  that it was his own treachery that landed him where he is.  

 

On the one hand, the actor is still doing amazing work, but Jebus, resolve this thing already.  It was actually freaking uncomfortable to watch Theon appeal to Sansa, "Please, he'll punish me" because she thinks he killed her two little brothers.  The fact that her response isn't, "I'll help."  speaks well of her.

 

 

 

We only knew that Cersei was summoning LF from LF. LF could be lying.

 

Right and I think the reason LF remains an interesting character is that he always appears to be telling just  a little bit of the truth and other characters can't spot the "and oddly enough, I just honestly warned you about what I'm doing, tee hee.....but you never think very carefully about what I say, because you dismiss me too easily".  

 

He told Cersei at least part of what the truth was, and mixed it in with what she wanted to hear.  Clearly he does want all the current power players to just continue taking one another out of this.  Then he just tells the listener the part they want to hear next so that they don't spot the "I just told you my actual plan for all of you" and that's the part they hear.  

 

For Bolton it was "the lords of the vale and the lords of the north form an alliance and....take over the world!"  

For Sansa it was "and when Stannis Baratheon defeats Lord Bolton, you will be made ....Wardness of the North....a term that sounds suspiciously like I just made it up here, on the spot, but it's also so clearly what you want to hear , along with this romantic drivel...."

For Cersei it is the only thing she can understand as a motivation, "I'm doing this because I directly want power."   

Edited May 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

I can't wait for Cersei to get hers! There's no way Olenna is doing nothing about it. Which reminds me how stupid is Cersei!! Olenna is right, they don't like each other, but they need each other. Cersei doesn't even have the support of the Lannister army anymore, what does she think she could do against the Tyrells if they decide to attack? Does she think the Sparrows would be enough against an actual army? How does she think she's not going to be the next in trial with the Sparrows?? The only thing I'm sure is that she isn't the one who will end up dead, but her son. She'll probably be imprisoned, like Marge now. But that will be for next season, probably.

 

What an stupid ill conceived attack by both Jaimie and the freaking Snakes! Seriously, I expected more from the Snakes, all talk and no delivering. Really, was that all they could come up with?? I'm happy Jaimie is a prisoner again. Now Dorne has even more on their side to bargain! Ha! Go Doran!

 

The only thing I liked from the North scenes were Sansa's dress and how she shut up that stupid Myranda. Other than that, poor Sansa, poor poor Sansa.

 

It could just be evidence of slipshod writing, but they've made that shit so easy to contract and so swift to manifest, that it actually doesn't make sense that anyone ever survives it when there is any kind of outbreak.  It's supposed to be so contagious a freaking doll infected Shireen (but apparently not her father, who presumably touched it long enough to give it to her).

 

Not to mention that Tyrion and the slave traders should be all sick by now. They have ALL touched Jorah.

[DirewolfPup]

I'm making the assumption that you need direct skin to infected skin contact to get this dragon scale rash. The stone man grabbed Tyrion's ankle, but his pants were in the way. The guards are grabbing Jorah where his shirt is over the infection. Is this realistic to how real life infections spread? No. I'm willing to suspend belief. There are enough eye-roll plots to sift through without this being one of them.

[janjan]

Pup:  We only knew that Cersei was summoning LF from LF. LF could be lying.

Au contraire. Roose read the ravengram. And then dropped it conveniently down the plot hole.

[90PercentGravity]

For a bit I thought the gut who took Jorah and Tyrion was that whosit whosit ducksauce guy. I was confused for a while add to why he didn't recognize Jorah.

Edited May 18, 2015 by 90PercentGravity

[stillshimpy]

I think, but I'm not positive, that that is the same actor who played Mr. Echo on Lost.  The guy who played the slaver who took Joran and Tyrion, that is.  

[gingerella]

A Show is predictable this season. I think that's why we're all so glum.

Hmmm, I wonder if the books are so poorly written too, or if it's all been bastardized by a TV producer/director team, which if truth be told, usually fuck up everything they touch, it's how TV production and directors usually work. And they are usually that egotistical that they think they can improve on the original recipe. If the books are this poorly written and there is that much masochistic shit in them over and over and over, it says a lot - and not in a good way - about the state of human beings right now, since this series has/had such a huge readership/fandom.  Count me disgusted right now with the TV version and those who created it.

 

[stillshimpy]

Well, I agree to an extent, gingerella.  I assume though that the books do a much better job with all this material and that sometimes the page will convey a richness to the characterizations that helps balance all this out.  

 

I just know too many people who have read them to believe they are just pieces of junk and poorly written.  It's actually not that they've told me that precisely, because god knows, by now everyone in my real life knows "Don't say anything, at all, ever, nope, no, no, not kidding, cease and desist immediately!" ...it's just I do know people who have read the books.  One of them is my son, by the way and I hold not only him, but a lot of the other Bookwalkers I know in pretty high esteem.   So I am willing to trust that the books do a much better job with all this and that there is more to it.  

 

Having said that?  Boy do I ever agree that the series if face-planting with it this season in particular.  

[gingerella]

But the problem with A Show is now, I don't really care anymore about anyone actually in A Show. And that is the series fault I suppose. I am already over Ayra and House of Death, it's been too drawn out. And I'm over the continued torture of Sansa, it's not in any way entertainment, it's disgusting. Although I want to know what happened to Benjen, I don't think we will ever know with the TV version, perhaps the books tell us, but we don't know that so it's moot for us Unsullied. I sort of no longer care if Arya kills all the fucking assholes in A Story, and I don't care what fate befalls Cersei at some point, though I wish her all sorts of bad shit. This show and how it's being told on TV is turning me away as a viewer, and to me, that stinks of poor story telling. Is it the TV version alone? I have no idea because it's all I have without any real comparison, but it's sad we keep getting this same old storylines being played out over and over and over. If the moral of the story is, men never change, the world is a dark and fucked place, well I get it already. I'm full up.

[DirewolfPup]

Season 4 ended with such a huge bang. The war on the wall. Freaking Stannis showing up to save the day. Tyrion getting rescued. Tywin dying on the loo.

 

What has happened in the last 6 episodes that shocked or made any sort of commotion? Sansa married Ramsey and got raped. Stannis is moving on Winterfell, which may provide some much needed GOT pick-me-up. Jon got elected Lord Commander.  Cersei turned into an idiot.

 

The Varys/Tyrion -> Jorah/Tyrion plot has had a little bit of interest. For the most part, it's been Tyrion wittily explaining everything we already know. They're both going to Danaerys. This is Jorah Mormont who kidnapped him. LC Mormont died via mutany. That's awesome, but A Viewer already knew all that. The stone men/Valyria stuff was momentarily fun, but quickly devolved into "oh no mutant leapers!" which just annoys me.

 

Arya's storyline is, I think, necessarily slogging along. If she got approval to see the Hall O' Faces in episode 2 or 3, that wouldn't make sense with how the place is typically run. They wanted to probably convey a sense of secret society of it all. Yet, while I get it, I'm still hoping they pick up the pace.

 

Dorne could have been interesting. The sand snakes are just horribly disappointing. The acting and/or script is truly awful for these ladies. Mycella comes of as Sansa from Season 1, which isn't high praise.

 

I've vented enough about Cersei around here. She's a dolt.

 

The most "what's going to happen" storylines for me seem to be Stannis and Sansa. Still, Stannis has been sitting on the wall for 5 episodes talking cryptically to every major character, once an episode, before trotting south.

[Llywela]

Hmmm, I wonder if the books are so poorly written too, or if it's all been bastardized by a TV producer/director team, which if truth be told, usually fuck up everything they touch, it's how TV production and directors usually work. And they are usually that egotistical that they think they can improve on the original recipe. If the books are this poorly written and there is that much masochistic shit in them over and over and over, it says a lot - and not in a good way - about the state of human beings right now, since this series has/had such a huge readership/fandom.  Count me disgusted right now with the TV version and those who created it.

I always run on the general assumption that any TV/film adaptation of any book never really gets it right and will always lose a hell of a lot of detail/characterisation etc, because they just don't have the time/space/budget/will to include everything, they never do, but this season I've been wondering a lot just how far A Show strays from its source material and whether watching is a better or worse experience if you already know the books. Mainly because I just watched the new adaptation of Poldark, already being familiar both with the 1970s version, and then halfway through decided to start reading the Poldark books as a baseline, which...big mistake. First I was negatively comparing the show to its former version and then I was comparing both to the books, picking up on every little change, mourning the loss of sub-plots and supporting characters and character insight and goodness only knows what else - it was a very unsatisfactory experience, in spite of how pretty the show was and the sterling efforts of the actors. There have been times watching GoT when stuff has come across as really clunky, like you could almost feel a whole chapter's worth of development being crammed into a perfunctory little 2 minute scene, and I've found myself sorely tempted to look up the missing detail, but after that experience with Poldark...well, if GoT has the same effect on its bookwalkers that Poldark had on me...I come down on it probably being for the best that I stay unsullied!

Edited May 18, 2015 by Llywela

[stillshimpy]

Dorne could have been interesting. The sand snakes are just horribly disappointing. The acting and/or script is truly awful for these ladies. Mycella comes of as Sansa from Season 1, which isn't high praise.

 

Thank you for saying this, because I wondered what in the world had happened to the actress playing Ellaria.  I've seen her in other projects, I like her last year and suddenly she's turned her acting up to scene-chewing villain with extra sneering accent.  Seriously, what the hell is up with her accent this year?  She sounds like she swallowed Selma Hayek and is speaking with purloined vocal cords...with acid reflux.  The hell?  They keep playing the moment when she sneers at Bashir, "You sit there on your chair and do nothing..." 

 

And every single time I'm wondering why the Indian actress is putting on an over-emphasized Spanish accent.  It's really distracting and it isn't doing anyone's acting any favors.   

 

So, the blade Jaime was cut with though...poisoned, right?  I mean, that's our big shocker, I'm assuming.   Jaime was just poisoned.  That's got to be why they made a relatively big deal out of him being cut.  

 

This year seems to be the slow-death-by-wrist-exposure to disease or deadly poison.

 

Edited May 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

This is, in essence, what our whole little society is about. The goal of this group is to determine if a complex, beloved story like "A Song of Ice & Fire" could be successfully turned into a TV Show using only the show as our source material. Could we decipher if the plot made sense? Are the characters were richly portrayed? Do we have a full, successful show on it's own without any supplementary materials?

 

The answer to these questions won't be solved until the end of the series. A Show likes to pull random plots back to earth from no where, so all these plot holes this season may make sense eventually. We won't know until it's over.

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy: I think Bronn got sliced and will soon be dead. A shit plan by Jaime ending in the shit ending to a great character.

 

Dorne is awful, the Sand Snakes are awful, and Elaria is worst of all. None of that entire part of the show makes any sense to me.

 

I am still steaming about the rape of a beloved character. I think at this point that it will be worse if Reek rediscovers his inner Theon and does something. So, yet another presentation of rape in a work where the important thing is how it changes the male character? <yawn>

 

The other thing that is bugging me is how gratuitous the rape scene was. There are other ways of conveying what happened without the last five minutes of last night's episode. Grrrrrrr...

 

It has been great reading the comments from you all. Work calls, back to (mostly) lurk mode.

[janjan]

Don't go, Stumbler! What will we do for annals?!

 

If Bronn dies, I'll never forgive Jaime for his dumb plan. "What are we gonna do when we get the princess?" "I like to improvise." Jeez, Jaime. He and Cersei both have trouble seeing more than one move ahead. I won't forgive A Show either. Without Bronn, half the snark is gone, leaving Tyrion's big mouth to carry on alone. And no Varys, either.

 

This whole season feels slow somehow. Stannis spent how many episodes sitting at Castle Black saying he didn't have enough men, and then somehow he did. And Dany sits at Mereen for some reason or other, in no hurry to get back to Westeros even though she now has ships and soldiers out the wazoo. And Arya sweeps and sponges. Time for some action, Show. The viewers are restless.

[stillshimpy]

Oh shit, it was Bronn?  Great.  Marvelous.  Why do I ever bother liking any characters at all?  

 

gingerella, I totally know how you feel.  After the Starks died almost en masse, I seriously questioned why I was even watching this show.  Nothing good ever happens to anyone, ever.  There are no happy moments and the same characters are used as pinatas over and over. And over.  Oh, and over.  

 

Then for a while I tried to view it as freeing.  "Well, since I technically have lost  everyone in this story I really cared about, I can just watch it for entertainment value and I do like Dany more now so...."  

 

Basically my point is my interest fluctuates.  There are still moments that move me, things that I didn't expect to.  Like Jorah reacting to the news of his father's death.  Like the Slavers referring to Jorah as an old man of sixty and how that finally seemed to tweak his pride enough to make him stand up for himself a bit.  

 

 

 

I am still steaming about the rape of a beloved character. I think at this point that it will be worse if Reek rediscovers his inner Theon and does something. So, yet another presentation of rape in a work where the important thing is how it changes the male character? <yawn>

 

Yeah, this is going to continue to be a problem for me if Sansa doesn't get to chop off Ramsay's bits and sell them on the black market or something.  The focus on Theon in that scene was just, yes, we get that his actions brought a lot of this stuff about.  Kind of a freaking lot, but that scene wasn't even about Sansa.  It was about the dynamic between Ramsay -- what a poor excuse he is for a character at this point (more on that in a second) -- and Theon who how are we even supposed to react to that scene?  Oh poor ....Theon?  Tears in his eyes Theon?  

 

Something hideous and completely unfair is happening to Sansa for no decent reason.  It's just there to shock and horrify.  They've made this big ass deal of "oh she's the key to the North, dontcha know!'  and how allegedly Ramsay marrying Sansa will help bring the Stark allies to Bolton's heel.  

 

But it shouldn't specifically because Ramsay is such a known piece of shit and if Sansa had any meaning for the North, they'd have stormed the place to get her away from the Boltons, because it could not be clearer that Ramsay would mistreat her.  Sansa shouldn't need to put out the Batty Brienne Signal for it to be obvious "Oh, you should probably get her out of there, before someone starts doing things to her that are largely unspeakable."  

 

 

So anyway, here's where the show is failing:  Ramsay isn't a believable character any longer.  Actors love to play villains.  Love it. Lovelovelovelovelove....because frankly they are more interesting to play than heroes.  They have complexity that challenges actors and lets them explore more facets of humanity and what people contain.   

 

It's a rare, rare person who is just reveling in their own suck and nastiness and being all "Wooo! Fucking Evil, am I right? It's the bomb!  And that's my animating force!  No real emotional complexity.  I'm just a fucking monster! Up close and personal."  

 

True monsters are actually quite rare....unless your watching this story and that's where this season is falling down a lot for me. 

 

Ramsay is Joffrey without the crown.  He's a re-tread of a character and oh my god, enough with the dudes with the daddy issues taking it out on the female characters in this show.   I know there are a ton of Breaking Bad fans around here.  Try thinking about Gus Fring....now think about Ramsay.  

 

One is a complex character and the other one is a boogeyman rendered by a seven-year-old in crayon.  That's how lacking in nuance Ramsay's character is and having him rape Sansa to really make sure no one missed that it....what's beyond overkill?  Doesn't excess just eventually lead to apathy in these instances?  I couldn't even get all that upset about the darned scene because it was just so....rote on this show.  

 

I'm hanging in here because I am hoping that Sansa kills the hell out of the lot of them and does a dance upon their bones.  But that's about the only thing keeping me invested in that one.  I am one of the few people that finds Arya's story pretty fascinating.  She's been far too cavalier about death.  It's good for her to understand it as something beyond a weapon to use against others.  

 

I've already complained about the King's Landing stuff.  

 

I'm really glad I'm not the only person who is a little horrified by the overly broad acting of the "Apparently, they only have one set for Dorne and it's a....well, it looks like a hotel actually...." story.  

 

Also, it's a tiny bit challenging for me to get too het up over Myrcella's fate at any point, because I couldn't pick her out of a lineup most of the time.  

Edited May 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[gingerella]

Yeah, this is going to continue to be a problem for me if Sansa doesn't get to chop off Ramsay's bits and sell them on the black market or something.

Well now that we know 'cock merchants' exist, anything is possible, yes? At least that made me chuckle, though it was from your post, not the show.

 

ETA: And yet, just knowing that this show told us that cock merchants even exist, I mean, are you fucking kidding me Show?! "Here ye, here ye, get yer freshly chopped off cocks here! Cocks two for one special! We got m***** cocks, giant cocks, whatever your cock needs are, we can fill your request!" I mean honestly, how ridiculous does that sound? *pffffft*

Edited May 18, 2015 by gingerella

[WhiteStumbler]

 

stillshimpy: Something hideous and completely unfair is happening to Sansa for no decent reason.  It's just there to shock and horrify.

Exactly this. The rape doesn't make us think any worse of Ramsay (that would be unpossible), it doesn't make us feel more pity for Sansa than could have been accomplished with a ripped dress and two black eyes, and it doesn't move anything forward. It's only purpose seems to, as you said, "shock and horrify" the audience. Lazy writing.

 

gingerella: If Purveyors of Fine Cocks are "a thing" in A Show, it makes me wonder why the sorcerer who cut Varys didn't just pop over to the nearest store and pick up a few to throw into the brazier. Maybe they are expensive?

Now it all makes sense! Ramsay wasn't torturing Theon, Ramsay was just short some cash for running the Dreadfort while Dad was away, and was looking to make a few quick dragons.

[Pallas]

The story is doing a lot of wheel spinning and trying to distract from it by just upping the mistreatment of the two or three characters left that are even mildly likable or powerless in this. -- stiishimpy

 

A Show is predictable this season. I think that's why we're all so glum. That mixed with no good things at all really happening to the "good" characters. -- Direwolf Pup

 

I agree with you both on this, so far this season.  Even though A Show will probably have a jaw-dropper or two lying in wait for us now that it's turned the corner and entered the top of the backstretch...that's a narrative scheme much more like a horror or action saga.  The kind of stories I don't watch.  

 

After weeks of filler we now edge toward the seasonal culling of the herd: both the villains and the protagonists, and so far it seems we're pretty right about who are the essentials in each camp.  It's not our first Westerosi rodeo.  The villains get to be especially vile before their downfalls, and only the instrument of the deed is in question; the protagonists suffer, imperiled and abused, while drawing upon Strong Inner Resources to make it through the season.  Like us.

 

And yes, shimpy, it is Ramsay who is No One.  Not a character but an authorial conceit.  From first to last he has been a misfire.  He managed to all but bore me with his rape of Sansa, even as he did with his ongoing mutilation of Theon.  It made me yearn for it to have been Roose that Sansa was paired with, a character -- a true character -- who manages to horrify us without disgusting us.  A Tywin; a Hound.  

 

It was Arya who managed to get paired with the Hound, and that story continues to pay off, because I believed in him, and in their complex dynamic.  I believe in what he taught her about human nature, and her own -- is still teaching her.  And such lessons don't only have to be taught in the "men's sphere" of action, of literal journeys;  they can be at least equally involving when they take place within "the women's sphere" of four walls, and interaction.  As Arya's new dynamic with A Man, in a crypt, demonstrates.

 

So far this season they are only showing us new ways to die.  (With the exception of Jon Snow, I suppose.)  But mostly, new ways to die, and not what A Show once did so well: show us different ways to live, and reasons we might all choose to live or die.

[ChocButterfly]

Ok, I know I'll sound horrible for saying this, but... I'm not that bothered about Sansa's rape. I mean, of course I'm disgusted, I hated it, I couldn't even watch the scene and I hate that the show keeps using her as everyone's punching bag. But, that said, it fits the story. I mean, really, what the hell did we expect from Ramsey if nothing but  a brutal rape on his wedding night? I knew it was going to happen, we all saw it a mile ago when he said to Littlefinger he'd never hurt her.

 

Now that said, if the show continues the whipping off Sansa with no appropriate vengeance on her part SOON, then I'll be reall pissed And I mean soon as in the next chapter she finally gets some agency and gets to feel safe for at least a Fucking second. It's not like I'm willing to wait an entire season for that to happen.

 

And yeah, I may sound sadistic for saying this, but I'll be fine if Ramsey ends up castrated and tortured. I just don't want then to show it.

[janjan]

Ok, I know I'll sound horrible for saying this, but... I'm not that bothered about Sansa's rape.

You're not alone, Choc. I found the only interesting thing about that scene was wondering whether either Sansa or Theon had a dagger. When neither did, it was all very predictable.

[ChocButterfly]

On the other hand, how many of you believe Littlefinger didn't know anything about  Ramsey's true nature? I know he lies a  lot, but why would he lie to Ramsey when he told him he hadn't heard much about him?

 

Personally, I can't say if he knew or not, but I can assure it wouldn't have mattered to his plans. I gotta give it to him, I was surprised when he told Cersei about the wedding, but it makes sense, he's now putting everyone against each other. Plus, he gets the North too! No matter who wins, he'll end up winning. And I'm sure he won't kill Sansa for Cersei, he'll probably just marry her or use her for another plot. If he can still find her after all this.

 

I can't believe Tommen is such a pussy!!Seriously, he's just going to seat there while his wife is taken away? And I know I have said it enough, but how stupid is Cersei??!! She's getting rid of all of her allies that are left. Let's see, who is against Cersei right now:

 

-Stannis, that was from the beginning

-The Boltons

- The Tyrells, along with their army, their gold and their food (Fucking winter is coming!); thanks to her own doing! 

-Dorne, who now have her brother as well.

-Kevan Lannisters, her only family left, commander of her armies and she stupidly dismised him!

 

Who is on her side: 

- The Sparrows, who will soon put her on trial when the twincest rumors get out of control and Lancel starts talking

-Littlefinger? Ha, not!

 

So yeah, she's so stupid she could have been the most powerful woman in Westeros, instead, she's sabotaging her own power position and setting up her family' s demise.

Edited May 19, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[stillshimpy]

I can't believe Tommen is such a pussy!!Seriously, he's just going to seat there while his wife is taken away? And I know I have said it enough, but how stupid is Cersei??!! She's getting rid of all of her allies that are left. Let's see, who is against Cersei right now:

 

For real, this just made me laugh riotously.  Succinctly and directly put, Choc.   

 

The thing is the show has, inadvertently I think, implied that Margaery might not be the goddess in bed that we have every reason to believe she likely is.  It's just, there isn't a young man alive who had just discovered sex, who would sit there pretty much mutely as his only access to sex was taken away....if absolutely nothing else.  I mean, if that won't spur the lad to action, he's beyond slow-witted. 

[gingerella]

Well, let us not forget that Tommen done got hisself hillbill blood...so maybe he got purty on his face, but doofus in his noggin.

Edited May 19, 2015 by gingerella

[Pallas]

That's a great list, ChocButterfly.  It's not as if we didn't realize, some time ago, that Cersei was her own worst ally: that Cersei would turn on herself, through a combination of malice, instability, and overestimation of her skills.  That she would spite herself, and her children, into the grave.  

 

I buy it, because of her history.  A lifetime of privilege and social status, of "I'm  a Lannister" this and "I'm  the Queen" that, winning her deference and plumpings of her ego, without much actual power or experience.  As I recall, she didn't even sit on Robert's Small Council.  Tywin surely didn't school her in wielding power, and in her twenty years as Queen her only access to the workings of the throne would have been through whatever Robert chose to share with her, and the whispers of her spies.  Not that she would have learned much about ruling from Robert, even if he'd been of a mind.

 

This left her stunted in her understanding, and acting only from her prejudices. Her prejudices on the one hand, and her terrors, on the other.  For decades she conducted an affair whose discovery would doom her, her children and her family.  We don't learn or grow when we are terrified: we are paralyzed, or, driven by impulse.  And she had no field in which to exercise her capacities.  I think Cersei never learned a thing after she became Queen.  She is arrested in adolescence.  As Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, she is trying to rule with the skillset of a Queen of facebook.   

 

So her strategy is rudimentary -- hold power at all costs -- and her tactics...spite and slander, pretty much.  What Olenna said about making allies sailed over her head as much as Ned's offer of safety never made it off the ground.  I do like how the story is drawing the circle closed on her from both ends: allies she affronted; enemies she never foresaw.  Choc's list, with notes,

 

- Stannis, that was from the beginning  (but not in play where Cersei and her children were concerned, had she accepted Ned's offer)
-The Boltons (betrayed the alliance from 1,000 miles away: yet really, so far, only through the marriage to Sansa.  Cersei does have the option of countenancing that, and maintaining relations with the Boltons as Wardens. Not an option she will embrace.)
- The Tyrells, along with their army, their gold and their food (Fucking winter is coming!); thanks to her own doing!  
- Dorne, who now have her brother as well. (A failure of nerve and empathy, on Cersei's part.  She panicked.  Doran understood that Oberyn undertook the challenge on his own, and had no intention of acting as Cersei would have, in his place)

- Kevan Lannisters, her only family left, commander of her armies and she stupidly dismissed him!  (She offered him the command of Tommen's armies, but he rightly saw that as the command of her armies, and retired to Casterly Rock.)

 

There was nothing irremediable about her situation, had she not made it so.  Although, in another way, Cersei was likely doomed from the moment her first child -- the only rightful heir -- died, and she went on to conceive three more children: children who would otherwise have been no more than decorative spares.

[gingerella]

And she had no field in which to exercise her capacities.  I think Cersei never learned a thing after she became Queen.  She is arrested in adolescence.  As Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, she is trying to rule with the skillset of a Queen of facebook.

I really like this description. Cersei is no more than a middle school mean girl who went all the way with her own brother and is terrified people will find out, though they already know. The exercising in a field...it's like she was this beautiful horse who foundered in a small stall, to small for her to do anything but turn around and around in smaller and smaller circles until she was so dizzy she couldn't think straight, except she didn't know she wasn't thinking straight anymore.

 

I wonder what will happen when she has to send her precious boy into battle to lead his troops. If Kevan is no longer leading them, who is? Surely the King is expected to ride into battle leading his men, yes?  Tommen has the battle acumen of a flea, he wont last one second, though I don't think he will hide like his useless sack of shit older brother. I think he will stupidly ride into his death, and not too far off. Though if Tommen dies in battle soon, who would be ruling Westeros? Surely a Dowager Queen is unacceptable as a sole ruler. That leaves the door open for Stannis to finally be "the" King.

Edited May 19, 2015 by gingerella

[DirewolfPup]

Such good discussions everyone!

 

Tommen, as far as I'm concerned, deserves the slander and death that's coming to him. How hard is it to set up a decree to dismantle the Sparrows? Just freaking announce it on the steps in front of Balor. The gold cloaks work for him, not his mother. Dismiss his mother from his counsel if she fights him at all. It doesn't take an smart guy to realize Sparrow = bad, Margaery shouldn't be in prision. Just for arguments sake, who would replace Tommen if he gets killed? Mycella's bo or Stannis?

 

The Sansa rape. ugh I hate typing that. I'm sure it's going to get much worse before it gets better. I'm surprised he didn't have Theon rape her first, honestly. I realize he's missing certain equipment, but I'm sure Ramsay could find a way around that. (oh god... my mind is a horrid, horrid place right now). In the future, we'll be sure to see some bruises, marks, cuts, back-hand slaps. Oh, it can get so much worse. I bet that's where we're headed... <dying inside>

[ChocButterfly]

Ginger, now that you mention Tommen's lack of training in arms, you have to wonder how bad a father Robert was. By Westeros standards, not teaching your noble kids to fight with a sword it's like not sending them to college to prepare them for their future. Heck, even Robyn is trying to learn, thanks to Baelish. Which, brings me to believe even Robyn would have done something if his wife was taken from him like Marge was. I'm sure he'd just scream "off with their heads" or similar, but he would have done something at least!

[Llywela]

I suppose the trouble with Tommen is that he's just a kid - and he was never even the heir to the throne, merely the spare. All the focus would have been on Joffrey, such as it was. It's hard to get a read on how old Tommen is meant to be now, since the recast, but he's definitely not 'of age' - they seem to have waived quite a few rules since the not-so-far-off days when Joffrey had to wait till he was of age to even think about claiming his bride. There's no way Tommen has reached the age Joffrey was when they celebrated his coming of age, he can't be any older than Arya, at the most. He's been pushed into things that he absolutely was not ready for - including his marriage to Margaery - and he isn't coping. He doesn't have the training, the experience or the natural ability for any of it. So he flounders. It's exasperating as hell, perhaps, but very believable. He simply wasn't cut out to be king - and the way things are going, may not get the chance to grow into the role over time.

[stillshimpy]

Also, probably the best way to survive a childhood with Joffrey as your big brother was to say as little and interfere as little as possible. 

 

In the "sentences I didn't think i'd type today" category I give you:  Hey, remember the first time that Sansa was about to be raped?  Back when Myrcella was sent to Dorne and Joffrey made fun of Tommen (who I think is supposed to the youngest) for crying?  I think Tommen spent a lot of his time just trying not to be emotionally squashed by Joffrey.  

 

That would go a long way towards explaining why he simply looks around and waits for someone else to do something when things start to go south.  

 

In fact, both Cersei and Tommen are having a difficult time catching up to what life is like now that the older male in their life has died.  In Cersei's case, she's trying to be Tywin and by the end of his life, even Tywin was struggling to maintain the power structure he had built, due to lack of financing. 

 

You really can only swing around the cudgels you actually possess.  I'm assuming that Cersei believes that High Garden and all its lands, etc. will revert to the crown if there is no heir of High Garden.  She sent Mace off, almost certainly to his doom.  Seized both Loras and Margaery before either could produce a child.  

 

Maybe the reason Cersei thinks it's not a bad plan to thoroughly alienate the Tyrells because she thinks a house without an immediately apparent heir is easy pickings, not because she's blind to the similarities, but because she's familiar with the feeling? 

Edited May 19, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

Trying to find something positive, because it was not a nice night for a White Wedding...

The ceremony itself was lovely (even though Roose was presiding).

Sansa's dress was beautiful, and it had a few silver fish on the front, a nice nod to her mom.

Nice to see some more hints of Winter (gently falling snow, snow on the ground) during the wedding, because come on! 3+ years?!?

 

As for Cersei's "plan", I think she sent Mace off to get him out of town and not to kill him, but we will see.

Could she be trying to maneuver Loras into marrying Myrcella (once Jaime brings her home to KL), so that any child they have would be the heir to House Tyrell? Sure, Jaime was seized in the Water Gardens by Amazing Coincidence, but Cersei doesn't know that atm.

[janjan]

Shimpy: I'm assuming that Cersei believes that High Garden and all its lands, etc. will revert to the crown in their is no heir of High Garden.

Wow - that's an interesting thought. Maybe Cersei isn't as dumb as we've been assuming. I thought she dispatched Mace (with extreme prejudice, no doubt) just to isolate Margaery emotionally, but maybe it was really to remove the current lord before removing his offspring. They did make a point in the hearing of referring to Loras (twice!) as the heir to High Garden. Olenna has her work cut out for her to counter that move.

 

Publicly accusing Cersei of incest, and thus feeding her to the sparrows like so much suet, wouldn't be Olenna's first choice because it would leave Margie married to a bastard. But if House Tyrell is backed into a corner, maybe denouncing Cersei and allying with Stannis the Mannis is her best move. Margie wouldn't be queen anymore but at least she'd be alive, and they could somehow get the marriage annulled. They can't claim lack of consummation after Margie's bragging, but they might claim false pretenses (the claim that Tommen was legit). I don't suppose Marg would want to marry one of Stannis's bottled sons, so all she could do is retire to High Garden and lick her wounds.

 

I hope Olenna is smarter than I am because I don't see a viable strategy for her.

[Pallas]

One more note about Cersei and her tactics.  The motive for her summoning Littlefinger, on the double.  She seems to have imagined that she could safely move against the Tyrells if she could swap out the Tyrells and The Reach (their fiefdom), for Littlefinger and The Vale.  Goodbye to The Reach's soldiers, gold and grain. but hello to The Vale's soldiers -- "best in the land" -- maybe grain, and possibly Littlefinger/Arryn gold. Plus, her scheme probably included confiscating all Tyrell holdings, through the law, executed by her own and The Vale's soldiers. 

 

Littlefinger changed the subject.  He incensed her with his news about Sansa, and diverted her attention from The Reach to The North.  Again, the only blatant revolt Roose undertook (so far) was to agree to the marriage between Sansa and Ramsay.  Who cares?  In the balance of things, and even from what I hesitantly call "Cersei's perspective"?  As Cersei herself noted, the Boltons are 1,000 miles away, and she is in the middle of a many-headed vendetta against the Tyrells, for which her summons to Littlefinger was supposed to secure the final step.

 

But that deft master of the worst in human nature, knew exactly how to play her.  He showed up obediently and deferentially, then seized the agenda from her and sent her off into a tailspin.  In gingerella's great analogy: he coaxed her into the smallest stall in the barn, shut the door, and let her spin herself into a senseless lather, while he murmured, "Good girl...good girl..."

[stillshimpy]

So hey, what the hell is the meaning of the title in this episode?  

 

Clearly the whole "unbowed, unbent, unbroken" is only true if you remove all the prefixes which would seem to be the point of the damned thing.  

Edited May 19, 2015 by stillshimpy

[gingerella]

So hey, what the hell is the meaning of the title in this episode?  

 

Clearly the whole "unbowed, unbent, unbroken" is only true if you remove all the prefixes which would seem to be the point of the damned thing.  

I seem to remember somewhere in the beginning someone chanted that phrase but I cant remember when, where or whom.

[ChocButterfly]

I think the Sand Snakes said it before they went to attack. Maybe that's their battle cry? You know like volleyball teams put their hands on top of one another and chant something before the game? I found that hilarious, because that's what they seemed, a volleyball team! Gooooo, Snakes!!!! Ha, what a disappointment, they look like truly badasses.  We have a saying for that in Spanish: "too much froth and no chocolate".

 

On the other hand, it seems like Oberyn really took the time to train his daughters is combat, but couldn't be bothered to teach his nephew, you know the heir of that dornish throne? Doran seems to be in a wheelchair, so his uncle should have helped. 

[Bcharmer]

Pardon my lowbrow observation of this, but when Bronn and Jamie were dressed up like Dornish of Arabia ("try to blend in"), falling behind other similarly attired gents, heading toward the Water Garden, it reminded me of the Cowardly Lion, Tin Man and Scarecrow, dressed like the Witch's guard, entering the castle before the drawbridge went up.  When they were surrounded, I nearly expected the Wicked Witch of the West to appear, and throw a fireball at one of them.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I half expected a flying monkey or an O eee O.   

 

Bcharmer, how in the world did I not know that you're one of the Unsullied?  Dude?!?  You're one of us?  All the crazy, daft, avocado-ripening fun we could have been having, but haven't?  

 

It's both a great day and yet, I still mourn the silliness that should have been long before this :-) Welcome to the darned Spitball Wall (Oath optional, grog encouraged). 

Edited May 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Bcharmer]

Why thank you, Shimpy! Spitball wall looks lovely.  Yes, I be totally Unsullied, dude. Just haven't visited until now. But since there's grog, and oaths 'n shit, I'm yours. :)

 

I very much got that "O-EEE-O" vibe from that scene. Cracked myself up over it. Unsullied, silly and easily amused.

[janjan]

I think it's Cersei who's un-  everything'ed. She seemed defeated last week, enough so that Margie was openly mocking her. Bad move, Marge. But now, Cersei looks set to confiscate High Garden while the younger Tyrells languish in a dungeon. Only Olenna can stop her, although I don't see how she will pull it off.

 

Jaime and Bronn reminded me of Bob Hope and Bing Crosby on one of their road movies, complete with singing.

 

Prince Doran has gout, said to be the reason he didn't attend Joffers's wedding. How come he gets to be a prince when every other Head of House is a lord? And Myrcella is already a princess? I call that title inflation.

 

Why don't they turn on the damn lights in the House of B&W? What a depressing place. And why is it now all about truth and lies? That many-faced god seems kind of capricious, albeit a stickler for arithmetic.

 

I want Arya out of there, stat. Unfortunately, she will probably be wearing that old woman face she was fingering.

[Pallas]

So hey, what the hell is the meaning of the title in this episode?

 

Those are the Words of House Martell.  (See Character Guide.)  And I totally missed ChcoButtlerfly's great catch that the Sand Snakes chanted it as they pranced into battle. 

 

Prince Doran has gout, said to be the reason he didn't attend Joffers's wedding. How come he gets to be a prince when every other Head of House is a lord? And Myrcella is already a princess? I call that title inflation.

Why don't they turn on the damn lights in the House of B&W? What a depressing place. And why is it now all about truth and lies? That many-faced god seems kind of capricious, albeit a stickler for arithmetic.

 

Since we know that Dorne was the one former Kingdom that "withstood" the Targareyn dragons, I've guessed that the terms of their union with the other six former kingdoms allowed them to remain a principality rather than a (de facto) Duchy.  So their lord is styled a prince, but is not THE prince.  Was he Cersei's first intended?  (If so, this should probably come up when Doran and Jaime meet.)  Given what we've seen of Doran and know of Robert, Cersei was the loser there, when Tywin set his sights on an even more illustrious match.  

 

On the other hand, I'm guessing that Doran would rather have gout.  

 

I think the Faceless game is about first facing who you really are, before being permitted to put it all aside.  I like that this is an entirely new direction in Arya's tutelage: a sentimental education.  I suppose, in a way, that is the lifelong learning many of us embark on: the Faceless just try to beat Death to the goalline.

[Llywela]

Prince Doran has gout, said to be the reason he didn't attend Joffers's wedding. How come he gets to be a prince when every other Head of House is a lord? And Myrcella is already a princess? I call that title inflation.

Myrcella has always been a princess, because she is (officially, at least) the daughter of King Robert and Queen Cersei. It can be tough to remember that, though - we're so used to thinking of Cersei's kids as Lannisters rather than Baratheons!

 

I think Dorne is different because they held out against the Targaryen invasion way back when, and so retained the royal styling of their house - in the same way that the rulers of the many kingdoms of Wales retained their royal styling for generations after the Norman Conquest, before being conquered and subjugated one by one. In Wales, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd of Gwynedd worked hard for years to have his status as prince of Wales officially recognised and legalised by the English crown, but failed to pass that official status on to the next generation, so independent rule was lost. Dorne, it seems, did rather better when Targaryen rule was established.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Llywela