S05.E04: The Sons Of The Harpy

[Meredith Quill]

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Episode Synopsis: 

 

The Faith Militant grow increasingly aggressive. Jaime and Bronn head south. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes vow vengeance.

Edited May 4, 2015 by SilverStormm

[Tara Ariano]

Nick's post on the episode: War! Huh! Good Gods, Y'all!

[stillshimpy]

Motherfucker.  Greyworm and Ser Ballister?  Jebus, Show.  Did you have to kill everyone to earn Jorah's passage back into Dany's life? Because, frankly, I'd have rather kept those two characters.  

 

I'll just be over here being despondent.  Bronn and Jaime are fun, I'd have rather kept Greyworm. 

 

Argh.  Also, I liked Ellaria last season, and this season she wants to murder entirely innocent young women?  That's how all this bullshit started, sheesh.  

 

Oberyn frowns from on high. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by stillshimpy

[90PercentGravity]

Wow... So Cersai's plan was to align with religious group, get them militarized, and get Loras imprisoned to create a rift between Margaery and Tommen? That is some serious three-dimensional chess right there.

 

How much of a hypocrite is Lancel? What will his sparrow pals do when they learn of his incestuous affair?

 

I wish we had gotten a reaction scene from Varys.

 

Myracell is pretty much fucked. She's either getting killed or getting stuck back in King's Landing.

[ChocButterfly]

How much of a hypocrite is Lancel? What will his sparrow pals do when they learn of his incestuous affair?

Exactly! And how long till he spills the beans on Cersei and the bastard king? I think this whole plan is going to blow up in Cersei's face. Plus, I'm disappointed in the High Sparrow, I thought he was more down to earth about helping the poor and letting the gods do the judging. Now he's gone all Melissandre and starts imprisoning people for every little transgression? Spilling all that wine, really?? the freaking WINE?!! Well, he really hasn't gone all Mel till he starts burning people alive, but he's this close.

 

Speaking of Mel, she wanted to make a smoke baby with Jon, didn't she? Aaaand, we thought she could only make those with the blood of a king. Hmmmm.....

 

When the unnamed girl called Ellaria "mama" I thought they were all her daughters. But then that other one said her mother was crying when she met Oberyn. Why was her mother crying, though? I didn't understand that part.

 

Selmy!!!!!!! Of course he had to die, I liked him, everyone that I like ends up dying. I'm not sure Cornotudo is dead, though. And that story about Reaghar, Selmy's and LF's, seriously, that guy did not rape and kidnapped Lyanna, I'm more convinced about it every day. Also, Jon Snow theory makes more sense as well.

 

Do you guys think Cersei summoned LF to have him imprisoned by the New Sparrow Inquisition? He's the owner of those brothels after all.

[janjan]

Take heart, Shimpy. Greyworm just looked mostly dead. Calling Miracle Max. But Selmy did look all the way dead. <sniff> It would take a miracle.

 

And you take heart, too, 90%. Myrcella gets to wear a golden crown before she gets her shroud. For how long, though?

 

Cersei is winning this round, but that was a lot of mayhem to let loose just to get at Loras. Can she get the sparrow-genie back in the bottle? If they hear the rumors about her, she's pooched. If even Bronn knows, then surely everyone else does, too.

 

And Margie wants to be with her family. The only one left is < insert drum rolls > Olenna. Look out, Cersei.

 

If they've written Varys out of the action, I'm upset. But if we can't have him, I want him to go back to Ilyrio's and have a nice bath and live happily ever after.

 

Jaime and Bronn aren't as much fun as I'd hoped. Bronn is still a hoot, but Lovelorn Jaime is a bore. A lousy fighter, too. And doesn't appreciate a good horse when he sees one. Pfft!

 

So is Shireen cured or not? She still had her scales back at Dragonstone, but they seem to be gone now. But her mother still doesn't like her.

[stillshimpy]

And that story about Reaghar, Selmy's and LF's, seriously, that guy did not rape and kidnapped Lyanna, I'm more convinced about it every day.

 

Yeah, even I have to admit, the pitying and vaguely indulgent look Littlefinger gave Sansa said a lot.  Admittedly, jeez, that means Lyanna Stark really and truly sucked as a human being.  Getting your brother and father burned alive because of a dude?  Letting a country go to war over a freaking dude?  

 

I'd rather believe she was abducted, but from the look on Littlefinger's face, that was the saving-the-Stark-honor answer that Sansa grew up with vs. whatever the complicated truth might be.  So if that's true, Rhaegar and Lyanna were easily the most disgustingly selfish shits in all the kingdoms and that's saying something.  Ugh. 

 

Speaking of all that, what the hell is the deal with Littlefinger and Sansa?  They make for a troubling twosome.  

 

And yes, Cersei's grand plan is just going to end with her children being killed.  

[Pallas]

Oberyn frowns from on high.

 

Well said.  Poor fuck came for a wedding (and maybe, to kill the Mountain), and the blight that spreads from the Lannisters like a doll polluted with grayscale killed him, drove his paramour over the edge, may kill half his children and carry his lovely principality into war.  

 

Stannis's scene with Shireen was genuinely touching: because of how we have come to know Stannis, we know this wasn't Stannis  being sentimental or saying what he thought his daughter wanted to hear.  

 

Looks like I was good and wrong about Jorah and Varys being in cahoots.  Still, the coincidence of Jorah's presence at that one brothel, at that one moment...less feasible even than Brienne's encountering Sansa at one of the few taverns not torched in that part of the world, as they traveled the same road.  I'm not giving up on the idea quite yet.  

 

But I absolutely was wrong that the Sparrows aren't fanatics.  Maybe the one bright note in the episode was Tommen's deciding there must be another way, other than violence, to deal with the High Sparrow. That struck me as circumspection rather than timidity: the right kind of uncertainty.  Not that this won't doom him, but he was doomed before conception.  

 

We seem to have our answer as to how Jaime feels about the murder of his father.  

 

And Margie wants to be with her family. The only one left is < insert drum rolls > Olenna. Look out, Cersei.

 

You said it, janjan.  Olenna will waste little time mourning her son, lost at sea en route to Braavos, but she won't appreciate the gesture, and she will get down to work undoing Cersei's coup.  Littlefinger's presence in King's Landing -- an interesting complication.

 

So is Shireen cured or not? She still had her scales back at Dragonstone, but they seem to be gone now. But her mother still doesn't like her. 

 

She has the same scales marking (only) half her face that she's had since we met her.  I think her mother hates her in equal parts for being female, for living when her brothers did not, and for the shame of her disease.  Oh, and for the love and loyalty her father freely offers her. Offers her, without her being strictly necessary to him:: as his male heir would be; as his wife was.

 

Selmy!   Is it possible that Greyworm can be saved?  Even so, exactly right, shimpy, that for Dany, his/their deaths were one more "girl loses boy" middle-act event to make Jorah seem essential.

 

Jaime was moved to quiplessness when they passed by the Sapphire Isle.  Who knows whose arms he hopes to die in?  At the moment, he'll be lucky not to die at the hands of a woman in arms.

[WhiteStumbler]

So sad at Sansa being down in the crypts beneath Winterfell, but I noticed some had wolves next to their statues; I wonder if we ever learn the fate of the mortal remains of Ned.

So Mr. Tyrell is headed to Braavos -- with Meryn Trant!

[Anothermi]

I'm kind of surprised at how much of our speculation is at least heading in the right direction. 
 
Cersei enlists the High Sparrow and Co. to do her dirty work against the Tyrells. But she doesn't consider what happens when you don't pay Braavos what it is owed, or (as someone else pointed out) how to put the Sparrows back in their cage. Especially 'cuz they're not very tolerant of sexual deviation (ahem). Kudos to those who spun this spitball. 
 
Tyrion and Jorah road trip! Not quite the conflagration I was banking on. Tyrion did his best, but Jorah gave us nothing but dwarf punching and tossing. Didn't find that remotely funny. His plan seems as well thought out as Cercei's. Good thing the Sons of the Harpy are looking out for his interests. <sad face>
 
The Stark Crypt! I threw a reference to it in the Milk Carton thread just before this Episode aired and voila! We're there in less time than it'll take Littlefinger to get to Kings Landing (he's the only person who gets anywhere fast). Not to mention the Lyanna/Rhaegar nods and winks to us. That and the exposition dump by Barriston Selmy about Rhaegar being a singer, not a fighter, just before the show arranged to prevent him from telling us any more dirt on the benighted Prince, makes me less sure of my favourite "who is Jon Snow's mother" speculation. Do you trust this show to steer us in the right direction on anything?
 
Smoke Baby! Again, it was brought up in the Milk Carton thread, but I was sure we'd seen the last of him. Guess it was just SBB because I thought the same as ChocButterfly:

Speaking of Mel, she wanted to make a smoke baby with Jon, didn't she?

And, yeah, was that another veiled reference to King's blood in Jon Snuh?  I'm really starting to doubt that spitball now. (see reasoning above - waaay too obvious hints for either Rhaegar or Robert B.)

Bronn and Jaime road show. Ok, probably not our speculation, but perhaps our wish that it might be as entertaining as Bronn and Tyrion. It's not.  Bronn is giving it a go but Jaime's not playing along. If they'd just give us Tyrion and Bronn on the road to Dorne to rescue Princess Myrcella and Jorah and Jaime on the road to Mereen it could be a lot more interesting (what with Jaime being renoun for killing Danerys dad). Then we might get some laughs. Although I did like Tyrion annoying Jorah so much by humming through his gag that he got it removed! I can't help but imagine that Jaime being captured by Jorah and baiting him would be a bit more fun - if not as fun and him and Brienne - but better than what we got. 
 
And other non-speculation related things: 
 
Dorne!Yeah! Shoulda guessed from Oberyn, but Tyrion forgot to mention that the Dornish like to fight a lot too, as well as the stuff he mentioned (Dornish girls, wine). It seems the Snakes aren't just an Oberyn thing. It appears to be the spirit animal of Dorne (see Stark Direwolves, Bartheon Stags, Lannister Lions...), judging by the opening credits. Expecting a lot more snake/viper/serpent references.
 

ChocButterfly: ...then that other one said her mother was crying when she met Oberyn. Why was her mother crying, though? I didn't understand that part.

Hmmm. It seems as though there is a dark side to Dorne. They don't hurt little girls, and they accept bastards but woe betide the woman who gives birth to a bastard if she is not a paramour. You can bear my child but you cannot keep them because you're nothing and I am something else! So, yeah, I don't really understand that part either. 

 

One thing I'm a bit worried about, strangely, is that Littlefinger seems to be not quite as well informed as he once was. I only care because I don't want Sansa to be all alone with the Boltons and Littlefinger's bets being wrong. He could worm his way out of practically anything, but she's such a novice at his game and he's convinced her to play it. I think he'll find himself between a rock and a hard place back in King's Landing. I don't think Cersei wants to set the Sparrows (hee, little birds, but not Varys' type) on him - just threaten it to get LF to plot and plan for her (she is in dire need of a bit of long range planning skills).

[gingerella]

Dear Show,

Fuck off and die.

Sincerely,

A Viewer

***********************

Seriously? I was both bored and grossed out. The storylines just did nothing for me, and some of them were so tired already (I'm looking at you Mel, trying to schtup Jon Snow and make another smokey? Fuck that shit man. Fuck.That.Shit. You cant do that crap more than once in a show's life cycle. Anything more and its gratuitious nonsense.).

To those spitballing about Cersei's inquisition backfiring on her, did I hear this clearly when Tommen was stopped on the steps to the High Sparrow, a few people in the crowd below started yelling at him "perversion", and other stuff like that? If so, then that is the beginning of Tommen's end because as the product of incest he will likely be killed because they will think he s a monster of sorts, and there is no way Cersei can get out of that either so...

As for LF returning to KL, I am rather surprised because SOMEone has to have seen him with Sansa and reported back to her, no?!? And one would think with the time it takes to ride from Winterfell to KL, someone will have sent a raven to intercept LK and let him know whats going on there before he gets there. I could see that news having him turn around and head back to Winterfell. Though as I write that I also think he doesnt want to actually be anywhere where the fighting will be so maybe if he finds out whats going on in KL he will hightail it elsewhere?

Speaking of Sansa, I think she has Stockholm syndrome and trusts and loves LF because she views him as her protector and savior, when in actuality he has more or less enslaved her to a batshit crazy freakshow, all while telling her sweetly to exact revenge, use her wiley ways to control Roose, and essentially wait for LK because he will be back. And yet, I wonder if by saying he will be back, it actually means he will never be back. Either he will be killed in KL b the morals police or he will head elsewhere. Dorne, perhaps?

As for Ser Barrister and Grey worm, shit man. I guess its the only way for Dany to allow Jorah back into her fold but still, shit man...

[stillshimpy]

Maybe the one bright note in the episode was Tommen's deciding there must be another way, other than violence, to deal with the High Sparrow. That struck me as circumspection rather than timidity: the right kind of uncertainty.  Not that this won't doom him, but he was doomed before conception.

 

Since nothing is punished in this story more than simple decency and having moral objections, I didn't see that as a bright note, but you may be right.  What I saw as the bright spot was Margaery understanding "The kid is going to be useless on this one , I need to call in the big guns. The Nana guns."  

 

Actually, I thought Cersei made a bunch of mistakes in her plan.  Margaery's father was the one Tyrell who had any interest in being deferential to the Lannisters on any sincere level.  Nothing says "Oh you poor sod, you're going to be hideously killed" more than being sent somewhere with Merryn Trout though, so yeah, he's freaking goner. Dumb move, Cersei.  I don't think Olenna is going to take very kindly to her own, foolish and harmless boy being murdered or rather obviously also held prisoner.  

 

In fact, Cersei moving so decisively to make sure house Tyrell now hates her was not wise on a lot of levels. Margaery trying to be shot of Cersei has certainly backfired spectacularly too, not a good season for plotting Ladies.  Take note, Ellaria, because seriously, leave the kid alone, don't be gross. 

 

I'm sure Greyworm will live just long enough to have a heartbreaking scene with Missandai .  That Harpy scene was bullshit, by the way.  I know I like the Unsullied, but they are supposed to be badass warriors and they'd have gone into formation with those shields and cut down the harpys ten to one.  Similarly, the moment the Dorne fighters showed up with spears vs. swords, that battle should have been lost even after Bronn's knife tricks.   You don't have to ride within sword distance when you have spears.  That's sort of the point of them.  

 

Yes, we do know how Jaime feels about Tyrion now and I must say, I'm pretty damned disappointed in Jaime for that one.  Maybe he wouldn't really kill Tyrion, but Jaime is aware that Tywin was going to have Tyrion murdered for something he didn't do.  It's not like Tywin didn't have it coming on a very serious level.  

 

That was a nice scene with Stannis and Shereen.   So which one of them is going to die now? 

 

As for "Mel wanted to make a smoke baby!"  I don't know, I think she wanted to control Jon, get him to break his oath and basically enthrall him , so that he'd commit the Night's Watch to a siege on Winterfell.  I think Melisandre has to have a reasonable proximity to unleash a smoke baby, for starters.  But mostly, she was sort of nakedly and obviously trying to manipulate him into a particular action.  If she needed another ....thing ....she could just boff Stannis again, right?  Surely his power is swelling once more.  

 

I have no clue what Littlefinger is up to, but this is an age before portraits.  I don't think it's a given that people would easily recognize Sansa.  They'd have to have seen her.  She had to tell the people of the Vale who she was, faces aren't known.  Sure, Brienne and Pod recognized her, but they were specifically looking for her and knew what she looked like.  

Gingerella, yes, he crowd was hissing some things about Tommen's suspected parentage that don't bode well for his longevity.  

Edited May 4, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

 As for "Mel wanted to make a smoke baby!"  I don't know, I think she wanted to control Jon, get him to break his oath and basically enthrall him , so that he'd commit the Night's Watch to a siege on Winterfell.  I think Melisandre has to have a reasonable proximity to unleash a smoke baby, for starters.  But mostly, she was sort of nakedly and obviously trying to manipulate him into a particular action.  If she needed another ....thing ....she could just boff Stannis again, right?  Surely his power is swelling once more.   

 

Then why doesn't she just do that? Make another smoke baby with Stannis and send him to kill Bolton? Heck, why doesn't she just get a few leaches for the Bolton and the Lannisters and be done with that already! This is why I hate those stupid magic plots. I mean, I don't mind magic, but it needs to have some limits and explanations, because if not then you're left wondering why doesn't they just use the same magic trick over and over again, since it worked so well the first time.

Edited May 4, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[stillshimpy]

Because I think proximity is an issue, Chocbutterfly, for starters.  Melisandre had to be rowed to the shore near Renly by Davos to deploy the first one.  Secondly, she wasn't trying to make a smoke baby with Gendry, at least, it didn't appear to be the case.  She wanted to sacrifice him (I don't know if it was bleeding or burning) and only seduced him to get him tied up to leech him.  

 

In fact, I'm not sure why anyone thinks, "Mel got naked, she wants to make a smoke baby!"  because that happened once and if it was an option on more than "to kill my own blood" why not roll that thing out after Joffrey? Why not just start pumping out an Army of killer Smoke Signals?  

I am assuming there was more to the Smoke Baby Baretheon, Black of 'air than Mel getting her freak her on. It looked like Stannis for one thing (as Brienne has told us forty five times at least...I might be overstating that by a few, but still).  

 

So yeah, I don't see any reason to believe that Melisandre was trying to do anything other than sexually manipulate Jon....because she more or less said that.  When the talk centered around not keeping that silly Oath so that he would commit the men of the Wall to a siege on Winterfell, I'm not sure why minds leap to Smoke Assassins.  

 

There's one other thing that is likely pretty important, judging by magic usually have rules and laws in these sort of tales:  How important is it that it was STannis's intent to kill Renly because I think that might be pretty key too.  

Edited May 4, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

I think he'll find himself between a rock and a hard place back in King's Landing. I don't think Cersei wants to set the Sparrows (hee, little birds, but not Varys' type) on him - just threaten it to get LF to plot and plan for her (she is in dire need of a bit of long range planning skills).

 

I bet you're right, anothermi, despite my earlier speculation that Cersei might want to grill the owner of the Best Little Whorehouse.  Since we were reminded yet again that Littlefinger is its owner, Cersei probably just has in mind using her inquisition to pressure brothel-keeper Littlefinger into acting as her consigliore.  That does leave Sansa and her story more unmediated.

 

Speaking of Sansa, I think she has Stockholm syndrome and trusts and loves LF because she views him as her protector and savior

 

I think Sansa neither loves nor trusts Littlefinger, but views him as the devil she knows, and the devil who didn't kill her brother and mother (just her father, but she's not aware of that).  And the devil who doesn't literally flay his opponents, and who at least acknowledges who she is when trying to work her over for his own purposes.  And, she and Littlefinger can converse with one another, and with some degree of candor -- just as she did with Tyrion back in King's Landing.  She'll miss that.  

 

Also, by playing the lost maiden with Littlefinger as he prepared to leave, Sansa may also have been giving him what she knew he wanted and expected.  

[WhiteStumbler]

So, y'all feeling a little different about my One True King now? #bendtheknee.

 

Amazing episode on many levels, but shocking how the Unsullied got chewed up in Mereen. They have "mastered the short sword, the shield, and the three spears", yet they somehow stuck with what looks like a long spear for patrolling tight spaces and an urban population? That doesn't make sense. 10:1 Harpy:Unsullied deaths sounds somewhat realistic, and it didn't look like there were 100 Sons of the Harpy attacking the 10 Unsullied. RIP Barristan, I can only hope that Grey Worm survived.

 

Thank goodness they helped Littlefinger not look like a complete idiot -- he knows that Stannis is gunning for Team Bolton, but I will continue to think the LF "plan" is crap. What is to keep the Boltons from killing Sansa as soon as Stannis breaches the walls of Winterfell? Or sneaking off with her? Or (ugh) Ramsay getting her pregnant first? Too many variables, too risky. Much like Cersei's plan with the Sparrows -- that will end in tears. I would have sworn that Cersei was on the verge of some weird confession to the High Sparrow about the "sinner" in their midst, but now see that it was a set-up for Loras. And how lame that one of the Top 5 knights in Westeros gets seized by a gang or carpenters without a fight?

 

shimpy: Nothing says "Oh you poor sod, you're going to be hideously killed" more than being sent somewhere with Merryn Trout though, so yeah, he's freaking goner.

Unless Arya kills Ser Trout (ha!) first? He is on The List, after all. And I don't know if Cersei wants a war with the Tyrells, she just needs some leverage against Margaery, so that Mags will come grovelling to Cersei... "Remember: Anything you need."

 

Lots of small boats being rowed by various people in this episode, and still no Gendry. :'-(

 

ETA: The feather that Sansa picked up from the floor next to Lyanna's crypt. All this madness and death over the last four years, and they call back to that scene with Robert and Ned in the very first episode of the series. Wow.

Edited May 4, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[ChocButterfly]

So yeah, I don't see any reason to believe that Melisandre was trying to do anything other than sexually manipulate Jon....because she more or less said that. 

 

But she more or less said she was going to make a smoke baby as well. She said something about when male and female get together they can "create" light and shadow. Something like that. I'm not saying she wasn't trying to sexually manipulate Jon as well, it is her MO, after all. Which makes me wonder, how did she mainipulate Stannis wife then? Hmmm.

 

So, y'all feeling a little different about my One True King now? #bendtheknee. 

Nope not me. Nice lines to his daughter won't change the fact that he has let his wife treat the poor child like garbage all her life and keep her basically a prisoner. Even now, Gutless Stannis, pretends to make everyone bend their knees to him, yet he can't right out tell his wife NOT to refer to his only child as a weakness, deformity and a disappointment?? He doesn't even defend her!! I don't know why Shireen loves him so much, he's like that parent who allows their kid to be abused by the other parent and pretend nothing is happening. And there's also the fact that he's basically a mindless idiot puppet who's just doing whatever Mel says. He's letting her do horrible things to innocent people, he cannot really rule, because he's a terrible leader. He's just a fucking incompetent idiot!!

 

I fucking hate Stannis, of course, not like I hate Ramsey, and I'm rooting for him against the Boltons, but I still hate him. Which means, he won't die anytime soon, he's in for the long run.

[gingerella]

So...last night I really disliked A Show. I felt disinterested and bored most of the time, and the violence was just too much for me, I didn't watch most of those scenes, I muted them and watched the corner of the screen between my hands until it was over. Most of it was just annoying as hell to A Viewer. The whole thing with these Harpy peeps killing so many Unsullied? Stupid. We've been led to believe that the Unsullied are supposed to a nearly invincible killing machine with huge numbers. Yet they patrol the windy alleys of Mereen in small groups with giant long-ass spears? As someone said upthread, how is that a helpful weapon in such tight spaces? Stupid plot line. Cersei reanimating a "religious killing army"? How utterly stupid! Nothing says devotion like planned fear mongering and forced worship or else.. Again, stupid to me.  Jorah being a fucking asshole to Tyrion, why he gotta do like that man?! That was not the Jorah I have grown to like so much. Stupid. Mel trying to seduce Jon Snow? Stupid. It's like her only game card is flashing her lady parts. I mean, yeah, she's got great tits, I'll give her that, but come on, it's like all her scheming always seems to be led with "hey, check out my great tits and cooter, you know you want some 'o dat, dontcha? Go on, touch it, you know you want to..." It's getting stale. And stupid. Mrs. Stannis glaring at her daughter like she's about to off her enough already. We get it. You wish she was a scale-less boy, we get it! Move on already, cause your husband doesn't care if she's a boy. Let's change that tune already shall we?  Sansa thinking LF was going to stay at Winterfell with her forever? Stupid. Really Sansa? You thought he was going to deposit you at the doorstep of the Bolton's and then hang around to protect you? And another lip kiss? It felt to me more like a Soprano's style kiss of death. 

 

As for Ser Trout, yeah, I'm thinking that Arya's going to wet herself when she learns he's in Braavos. And I'm guessing she is going to do an unsanctioned opportunity killing and get into big trouble with Jaquen over it. And I could totally see her getting kicked out of the House of B&W because she took a life without being properly trained or following whatever rules they follow there about taking a life.

 

ETA:

But she more or less said she was going to make a smoke baby as well. She said something about when male and female get together they can "create" light and shadow. Something like that. I'm not saying she wasn't trying to sexually manipulate Jon as well, it is her MO, after all. Which makes me wonder, how did she mainipulate Stannis wife then? Hmmm.

Exactly Choc, that's what I heard too, and why I thought 'oh no, not this again?!' As for Mrs. Stannis,I think she is both a bit simple in the head, and easily manipulated by Mel because Mel is scary, and because Mel pretends that Mrs. Stannis is really a wife to her husband. She treats the Mrs. with a sort of fake respect if you ask me, and I think the Mrs. eats it up. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by gingerella

[Pallas]

Unless Arya kills Ser Trout (ha!) first? He is on The List, after all.

 

Yikers, of course.  And there I thought Ser Merryn's job was to dispose of Mace Tyrell at the first semi-deniable opportunity. That may still be true, but perhaps not until Mace and Merryn land in Braavos, and Arya gets the chance to, as gingerella implies, whip Needle out of its sheath of stone.  And prove herself to be the least promising postulate since the future Mrs. Captain Von Trapp: "She is gentle/She is wild/She's a riddle/She's a child/She's a headache/She's an angel/She's A Girl!"

[WhiteStumbler]

Favorite quote --

Jaime: Corpses raise questions, questions raise armies.

[WhiteStumbler]

Choc: (Stannis is) basically a mindless idiot puppet...

Counterpoint -- Stannis could be using Mel as much as she thinks she is using him.

[gingerella]

Counterpoint -- Stannis could be using Mel as much as she thinks she is using him.

My ears did prick up a wee bit when he said to Mel on the outside stairs, "And what do you need?" It felt like there was some sort of suspicion in his voice as in "you cannot possibly only exist to further my cause...what do you really want lady?"

[ChocButterfly]

Counterpoint -- Stannis could be using Mel as much as she thinks she is using him.

 

Then all on his own he murdered his brother, burned alive his brother in law cause he wouldn't accept the new religion of the witch he's using, and was willing to sacrifice an innocent young man just to go along with Mel and keep her happily on his side. Yeah, I could buy, but then he's even WORST than I thought.

[WhiteStumbler]

ChocButterfly: I don't know if he would have sacrificed Gendry when push came to shove -- he released Davos the first time he thought about it. In general, we must agree to disagree about Stannis. I don't know if he would win any prizes for father of the year in our world, but in Westeros he is practically Saint Dad.

 

Amazing irony in the fact that Sansa is facing another potential assault on the castle where she is living from Stannis while in the clutches of psychopath.

Edited May 4, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[ChocButterfly]

KFH, I would like to believe Stannis wouldn't have Gendry be sacrificed like that, but after letting Mel burn alive his brother in law just cause he wouldn't convert, I believe anything. I think a lot of people are forgetting about that single horrible act of cruelty. In fact, I think that was worst than having Gendry killed. 

 

As for Stannis being a great father in Westeros' standards, well it would seem so, but not necessarily. We've had our share of really crappy fathers: Sam's father, Twyin, daddy Greyjoy, freaking Craster!! But we've also had really good ones: Ned, Brienne' s father, Davos, Doran, Oberyn; heck, even Bolton hasn't been such a bad dad if it weren't for a lack of discipline. So, no, being a bad dad just cause is Westeros is no excuse. 

 

But then, again, maybe I'm just biased. Did I mention I hate fucking Stannis?

Edited May 5, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[gingerella]

Last week's epi title was High Sparrow and even though the epi ended with not much about the High Sparrow, this week's epi was very much about the Sparrow's. So I am thinking that since this week's title was The Sons of the Harpy, I am guessing next week will be very much about the aftermath of the Harpy Massacre we saw. And speaking of, is it just me that thinks "Harpy...really?! Is that the best name you guys could cook up for yourselves?!"

[WhiteStumbler]

ginger: I think it is a reference to the harpy that used to be atop the pyramid, before Dany smote her ruin to the pyramid side.

 

I rewatched last night and I was sooooooo glad I skip the "previously on" clips -- my shock and joy at seeing Sansa find the feather in the crypt would not have been the same if I had seen it foreshadowed. Before Stannis rose even higher (in my estimation), Shireen was playing around with what looked like a rock on her father's desk, and I couldn't get a good look at it but damn I hope it was dragonglass! Why isn't Sam telling anyone who will listen about the magic powers of dragonglass?

 

'You want, no you need to have this stuff with you at all times! Reduces kitchen drudgery, removes stains and embarrassing age spots, one size fits all, no muss, no spills, it picks up your kids after their lessons with the maester, it gets rid of your gambling debts, it's a friend, it's a companion, it's the only product you will ever need, follow these easy assembly instructions.' Come on Tarley!

[janjan]

Maybe dragonglass is in short supply. If it comes from having had dragons breathe on it, there hasn't been any created since Aegon's time. Dany's dragons seem to prefer goats, little kids, and the occasional slaver. I'll set Pinky to work making some for us.

[stillshimpy]

I think Stannis would have sacrificed Gendry , but I do think he felt a bit of relief when he didn't have to make the choice. Nothing to do with being squeamish about killing anyone, I think it was knowing Hendry was Robert's only living child (assuming word of the massacre reached him).

Stan is did allow his wife to keep Shireen locked away, but in fairness to him, he may have truly been concerned for her safety. He does obviously love her and the doll was purposefully infected with grey scale. So he might have been afraid someone would try to kill her.

Killing Renly was pretty damned evil. My opinion of Stanbis has improved, but he's only a good guy when judged on a huge curve that includes people like Ramsay to offset him.

I didn't take the light and shadow remark in the same way guys. Again, she had to get close to Renly to deploy that thing.

I thought she meant Ygritte wasn't as inventive as she could be. More "it can be kinky" than trying to produce a smoke assassin. However, maybe you're right.

Admittedly, we also have no reason to believe she needs any royal blood to produce one of those things. Maybe she needs connected blood...and it was Jon's connection to Winterfell she needed.

[gingerella]

Shireen was playing around with what looked like a rock on her father's desk, and I couldn't get a good look at it but damn I hope it was dragonglass! Why isn't Sam telling anyone who will listen about the magic powers of dragonglass?

Yes! I also saw that and thought, "Oh, that's dragon glass right there, don't drop that, you're gonna need it later!"

I didn't take the light and shadow remark in the same way guys. Again, she had to get close to Renly to deploy that thing.

I thought she meant Ygritte wasn't as inventive as she could be. More "it can be kinky" than trying to produce a smoke assassin. However, maybe you're right.

I was one of the crew that thought she was trying to covertly make another SBB, but, if Jon Snow isn't a Baratheon then it's moot unless she can produce one of those things on the fly with anyone.  Who the hell knows with her. I also didn't get a kinky vibe from Mel, all we've ever seen is her getting it on on a war strategy table, but other than that, I dunno, maybe table banging is considered tres risque in Westeros? OTOH, Jon Snow did do the 'ol oral with Ygritte and that did seem rather risque at the time (I wont go into the hygiene of it all because I would require sufficient buckets of brain bleach), and I remember her being shocked he was going there. So if anyone is risque, I'd think it would be Jon Snow, though I'd like to know where he learned his mad sessy time skillz from since its not like there's porn channels to watch in Winterfell or Castle Black!

Edited May 5, 2015 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

ginger: I think it is a reference to the harpy that used to be atop the pyramid, before Dany smote her ruin to the pyramid side.

I think so too, but I'm unsure who they're made up of. They look like the masters (as opposed to the slaves) in terms of dress, but the one the freed slave killed last episode was also a freed slave. So they confuse me.

I looked up what a Harpy is - since it was the symbol for the city if Mereen - and it's a mythological beast, a bird with the head of a woman - and harpy means "snatcher" in Ancient Greek. Seems a fitting symbol for a city that was so proud of enslaving people.

 I rewatched last night and I was sooooooo glad I skip the "previously on" clips -- my shock and joy at seeing Sansa find the feather in the crypt would not have been the same if I had seen it foreshadowed.

I've forgotten the significance of the feather in the crypt. I vaguely remember it was with Robert & Ned, but nothing else. Could you remind me?

Before Stannis rose even higher (in my estimation), Shireen was playing around with what looked like a rock on her father's desk, and I couldn't get a good look at it but damn I hope it was dragonglass! Why isn't Sam telling anyone who will listen about the magic powers of dragon glass?

I think Sam's problem with telling people about the properties of dragonglass is that he learned about it when he killed the whitewalker with it, and nobody believes that he could kill anybody much less a whitewalker! He already tried to tell them when he arrived back at Castle Black with Gilly and baby Sam in tow and was ridiculed for it.

[WhiteStumbler]

Anothermi: I've forgotten the significance of the feather in the crypt.

I'm not sure of the "significance" per se, but in S1E01 Robert goes to the crypts to pay his respects to Lyanna, and he lays a feather in the hand of her statue before offering the job of Hand to Ned. When Sansa found it I was amazed that, after all the death and horror and the burning of Winterfell, it has still remained there. It makes me think of a line by Blackfish: "It often comforts me to think that even in war's darkest days, in most places in the world absolutely nothing is happening."  The air has barely been disturbed in this spot underneath a central location.

 

It would be like Pod discovering a sword with a Lannister Lion hilt in some river near the Kingsroad, and me remembering that Arya took a sword from Joffrey and threw it in the water all the way back in S1. Just a nice callback to the events that started this roller-coaster.

[Anothermi]

So if anyone is risque, I'd think it would be Jon Snow, though I'd like to know where he learned his mad sessy time skillz from since its not like there's porn channels to watch in Winterfell or Castle Black!

Didn't Jon tell Sam that he'd been to the brothel near Winterfell but couldn't do IT because he didn't want to cause another bastard to come into the world? IT usually means intercourse, so he could have been taught other methods by the ever resourceful Roz (RIP). Or maybe Robb and Theon told him about oral sex as a way to tease him and he just gave it a try with Ygritte?

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy: ...we also have no reason to believe she needs any royal blood to produce one of those things.

Stannis: You told me your magic requires a king's blood.

Mel: Yes.

(S3E03: Walk of Punishment) as Mel was leaving by boat to find Gendry.

[janjan]

All hail the Stumbler, he of prodigious memory, hereby proclaimed King of the Annals.

[WhiteStumbler]

Always remember -- double-N in the last word there. Thanks! ;-)

[gingerella]

It makes me think of a line by Blackfish: "It often comforts me to think that even in war's darkest days, in most places in the world absolutely nothing is happening."  The air has barely been disturbed in this spot underneath a central location.

I absolutely LOVE this! Thank you for remembering that line and tying it to such a poetic thought!

Anothermi, on 05 May 2015 - 1:00 PM, said:

Didn't Jon tell Sam that he'd been to the brothel near Winterfell but couldn't do IT because he didn't want to cause another bastard to come into the world? IT usually means intercourse, so he could have been taught other methods by the ever resourceful Roz (RIP). Or maybe Robb and Theon told him about oral sex as a way to tease him and he just gave it a try with Ygritte?

Yes you're right, he did mention that to Sam. I sort of knew that but wasn't sure he actually implied he did anything or just went in and left. But I cannot imagine him going in and just leaving so you're probably right, he learned "other ways" of pleasing women that would not result in a bastard. Speaking of Jon Snow's sexual prowess, I lerve him even more now that he's rebuffed the repugnant Mel. That? Was totally awesome because what dude in Westeros would turn away a free fuck that was literally handed to them on a platter? Only Jon mofo Snow, that's who!

Edited May 5, 2015 by gingerella

[janjan]

. . . Annals. 

Always remember -- double-N in the last word there.

You're not from Mianus, Connecticut, are you?

[Pallas]

Maybe dragonglass is in short supply. If it comes from having had dragons breathe on it, there hasn't been any created since Aegon's time. Dany's dragons seem to prefer goats, little kids, and the occasional slaver. I'll set Pinky to work making some for us. 

 

We can use the Pinkyglass against Bookwalkers!

[janjan]

As a side benefit, Pinkyglass also vaporizes books!

 

What's the significance of a feather in the hand of a mortuary statue? Did A Show ever explain that? Something about helping the soul fly to Valhalla maybe?

[Pallas]

What's the significance of a feather in the hand of a mortuary statue? Did A Show ever explain that? Something about helping the soul fly to Valhalla maybe?

 

That's a lovely thought, and I think that's all we have.  Similar, in a way, to laying a pebble on a headstone.  

 

Unless Lyanna had been known to keep birds?  My guess about our not having it explained to us, is that this might have been one of the first moments that the adapters had to make a choice: spend half a minute out of the alotted sixty to do exposition about something made clear in the source, or, just get on with it.  Or leave it out entirely.  Or change it to something that looks more familiar to us.  

 

Oh: or helping the soul to fly to rest in the Weirwood tree?

[90PercentGravity]

I'm now imagining that conversation in the writer's room "We could explain the feather or we could have more boobs?"

[stillshimpy]

Stannis: You told me your magic requires a king's blood.

Mel: Yes.

(S3E03: Walk of Punishment) as Mel was leaving by boat to find Gendry.

 

Did he mean all her magic? Because that seems incredibly unlikely, or did he mean whatever she was up to at that time because that seems more likely.  We've seen her do things like drink poison and survive it.  Did she build up a resistance to iocane there?  Sip from Stannis's pinky?  

 

Or was she talking about the magic she was perform with the Hibachi of doom about the various Usurpers?  

 

Don't get me wrong, that's incredibly well-spotted and you have a great memory, but not all of Melisandre's magic can involve the blood of a King.  THAT particular magic may have.  I think there's going to be specific rules for specific purposes, because in every darned story involving magic (magicks....wooooo!) there are rules, but that's way too narrow a rule for her to ever get anything done.  

 

So was it "This magic" or "Your magic" and I'm pretty sure it has to be This vs. Your. 

 

I do admit though that I just loath the whole business with Jon's stupidly complicated parentage.  It feels like, pretty much no matter what, a retcon the author pulled to expand the story.  That's absolutely fine, because that's how stories are expanded beyond the first volume of anything "what else can I do with this? I know!" 

 

Specifically though here's why it bugs me: It's such a Hallmark channel sort of twist.  Oh he's the secret love child of star-crossed lovers!  True soul-mates!

 

It truly seems as if a lot of people want to believe this, and rock on with that, but think about how much this story has punished Sansa for wanting to believe in fairy tales and that story element makes me simultaneously roll my eyes, and flinch because this story kicks the shit out of a tendency to believe in fairy tale and fantasy tropes. 

 

Freaking Littelfinger just kind of obviously played to Sansa's -- you would hope entirely dead at this point, from common-sense-and-brutal-experience poisoning -- inner romantic and fanciful child.  She would avenge her family!  He wanted to see her made Wardeness of the North!  She will triumph over her enemies.  Dead giveaway that he was playing her like a harp, Littlefinger told Sansa Ramsay was already in love with her.  

 

She ate it up with a spoon, but guys, that's a freaking fairy tale.  You've met Sansa.  How do you think that will turn out for her? 

 

So there are reasons beyond the "Oh please, that's from the pages of a romance novel" eye-rolling that makes me want to reject that "Jon is Lyanna Stark's child!" and even I have to admit, it looks like they are going there.  I just doubt it's going to lead anywhere nice. 

 

Maybe Mel really did sniff out Jon's blood and wanted to make Smoke Puffs Aplenty with him.  Squadroons of the whispy, murderous tots.  Who needs Wildlings, am I right?  

 

But then we're also told, in the same story that Rhaegar Targaryen lay roses at Lyanna Stark's feet and blah-blah-blah it's heavily implied that they were in love, rather than Rhaegar raping Lyanna.  Oh, fine!  Fucking splendid  It just means that they were really pretty terrible people.  That shit didn't just get most of the male Starks burned the alive, it had Rhaegar's wife receiving -- let us understate the matter -- rough treatment before death and his other children? 

 

Yup, Rhaegar brought that about for his own children.  So...hooray?  The story seems hellbent on making Jon Snow the child of two despicable human beings who let the people they love be brutally murdered and a country torn to shreds for it?  

 

Just saying, if Jon really is Rhaegar and Lyanna's kid....poor.fucking.sod.  Won't it be special when he learns about that?  

ETA:  Also, I willingly admit, I've had enough of Jon Snow's existential dilemmas as it is.  So beyond the "well, I've watched this story for a long time and no freaking good could possibly come of this" I'm really not looking forward to any potential reaction of "My father...I mean my Uncle lied to me!" and all the other stuff we've already been treated to.   Who knows? Maybe it is Jon's opportunity to take it on the chin and realize that, if that's the case, then Ned sacrificed the honor attached to his name and that meant a lot to him.  A truer mark of love would be difficult to find. 

But for the Milk Carton Gang, there is one good thing that might yet come of this: the person most likely to know Jon's story is Benjen Stark.  

Edited May 6, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Llywela]

Yup, Rhaegar brought that about for his own children.  So...hooray?  The story seems hellbent on making Jon Snow the child of two despicable human beings who let the people they love be brutally murdered and a country torn to shreds for it? 

Or possibly, two people who acted impulsively on what they believed might be love and were horrified by the devastating consequences that unfolded thereafter, way beyond anything they could ever have foreseen, still less controlled. I mean, we don't call Robb a despicable person because he took a chance on his love for what's-her-name (heck, why can I never remember her name?) only for a lot of good people to die as a result. I don't think we know enough about Rhaegar and Lyanna to judge, either way - maybe never will.

[stillshimpy]

I mean, we don't call Robb a despicable person because he took a chance on his love for what's-her-name (heck, why can I never remember her name?) only for a lot of good people to die as a result. I don't think we know enough about Rhaegar and Lyanna to judge, either way - maybe never will.

 

Robb was promised to someone he never met, so that part is similar.  Rhaegar had children with his wife, who he publicly humiliated if Littlefinger is to be believed.  If Bran Stark is to be believed (and the story we were told is starting to be presented as suspect) "Robert started a rebellion to get her back".  

 

The "oh, two souls desperately in love".  No.  Sorry never going to fly with me.  Rhaegar was married with children. We know that much.  We know enough about him to know that.  Was she a shrew?  Maybe.  But that doesn't excuse anything.  He was supposed to be King.  

 

But let's say for even one second, "They were just in love.  How were they to know?"  

 

It would become very apparent, pretty quickly that they were causing a few problems of the "oh look, murder, mayhem, war" variety long before every Targaryen child was murdered.  

 

At some point, they are completely on the fucking hook when she didn't go.the.hell.home.   Pretty early in the "Oh falling in love with the married man with a wife and responsibilities" and "Oh, publicly shaming my wife and letting everyone know what I wanted to do with my parts has not worked out as I intended" game it would have been obvious that "Well, that was a bad idea."  

 

Robb did get himself killed and a lot of his bannerman, but he was not a married man with a Kingdom as his responsibility, or deranged daddy who liked to bbq people.  He didn't watch people die for however long it was...months, years, whatever.  He went to a bad party an had he lived through it, perhaps he would have regretted his actions.  Or hated Walder Frey.  Or both. 

 

VERY early on....when ones brother and father have burned alive it's probably a good sign to give up on the guy, for Lyanna.  

 

I personally think we know more than enough to know that their actions were despicable because of all the dead children, if nothing else. If not from the very inception (he was married, with children, it's different on the 'how could they know?' scale) then certainly pretty quickly.  If the humiliated, raped and split in two wife wasn't a consequence that could be foreseen, when the country is at war?  There was a body of proof (oh punny) that they'd made a gods damn mistake of EPIC proportions.  

 

Break up, you butt munches.  Jebus.    I know Jon has wanted a name, but I don't think he'd want to be associated with that name.  

 

The whole "Oh look, the story is very clearly going in that direction now, oh joy" bend in the story did do one thing:  It made me think better of Jaime and Cersei Lannister.  At least they love their children.  Maybe Lyanna loved the boogers out of tot Jon, if he is indeed hers, but I submit to you -- with a fair body of proof -- that having Rhaegar as  a daddy wasn't worth much.  I also think that if we are to believe any of the story elements, at all, that the "two souls, in love" stuff flies for...not very long, at all.  

Robb and Talisa really did do something stupid, but if Robb hadn't twigged to the likelihood that he was a dead duck anyway, I'd be sort of surprised.   I grant you, he too made a mistake.   They just aren't comparable ones.  

 

Pretty much as soon as Brandon and Whathisbucket Stark were smoldering on a throne room floor?  Time to give up on the plausible deniability of "how could they know?"  They could know.  

Edited May 6, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Llywela]

I just mean, I doubt it was a straightforward case of two despicable people creating murder and mayhem and not caring. Show has been on long enough for us to know that few things are that simple. Characters do stuff, often without thinking it through or being aware of all the facts, and their actions have consequences, usually massively unforeseen. Cat arrested Tyrion on the King's Road, for what she thought were good reasons, and the kingdom went to war as a result. Oberyn offered himself as Tyrion's champion for what he thought were good reasons and Myrcella is in danger as a result - Tyrion would never have foreseen that when he accepted the offer. And so on. I would imagine that neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna was any more despicable than most people in this story (although thinking about it, that isn't saying much). They were more likely just two flawed individuals who acted without much forethought and saw the consequences spinning ever further out of control as a result, a snowball effect. We'll probably never know exactly what happened back then, but we can know that it's often nigh on impossible to get the genie back in the bottle when released, however good or bad your intentions.

 

I dunno. I don't know the timescale of what happened back then, but I get the impression that at least the first part happened fairly quickly, before war broke out - after that, it may have been too late already to take it all back.

 

Also - I'd imagine a lot of what actually happened is being misrepresented, presented to us by unreliable witnesses, none of whom are in possession of all the facts, all of whom are putting their own spin on what they know.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Llywela

[stillshimpy]

I'm going to go ahead and reply in the Completely Unspoiled thread, Lywela, I both agree and disagree, pretty adamantly (you probably guessed that part already), but my reply is best suited to that thread. 

[DirewolfPup]

I'm concerned with Cersei's goal if she really, truly has one. She planned to get Mace Tyrell out of KL before this all happened. It's obvious that she didn't want his influence on Loras' imprisonment.  But, really?  Cersei thinks it's a good idea to have religious fanatics exacting courtless judgement on "sinners" in the middle of the streets? Are you an imbecile? Apparently wine drinking and non-marital sex are illegal and punishable by death now... just flipping great. She shouldn't be thinking that she's immune from their judgement because she animated them. Monsters turn on their masters all the damn time.

 

Plus, all this ruse. All of it. To imprison Loras. Good freaking Lord, just gamble with the lives of innocent people. All the while not even remotely guaranteeing that Loras would even get arrested. She may have made that part of the deal. I wouldn't put it past her.

 

This is backfiring on Tommen, her sweet boy. Note, Sparrows, it's not a crime to be born. Children of incest are not the child's fault. So if he gets killed for this or imprisoned or anything, that's just a heaping load of crap.

 

My only thought, is maybe she's taking the approach of "chaos is a laddah" from LF. Cause that's all I got.

 

Tl;dr

Cersei, you're an idiot.

[stillshimpy]

Cersei, you're an idiot.

 

She is certainly setting up her face to miss her nose.  

 

My husband was saying that he wondered how likely it was that Jaime Lannister would just without incident in Dorne.  Someone would just walk up to him and go a "stabstabstabstabstab" on his face, because you know, he's actually off to do something motivated by actual love for someone (no matter what I think of Cersei and Jaime they love their kids).  

 

So since Cersei probably participated in bringing about Joffrey's demise (she certainly didn't try to stop him before he was out of control) , she seems poised to get Tommen killed because she unleashed a monster she can't control (I mean, the crowd hissing at Tommen, who never looked more like a little kid than he did when he looked behind him and realized what they were saying) ...and then she specifically sent Jaime to Dorne to fetch Myrcella. 

 

Cersei appears to be cursed, but it is also partially that she does dumb things and brings about a lot of her own misery. 

[janjan]

the person most likely to know Jon's story is Benjen Stark.

I care more about Benjen than about Jon's parentage. Dear Show: Bring back Benjen NOW! I mean it, Show, or Pinky's gonna getcha! < Whoooosh! >

 

Rhaegar had children with his wife, who he publicly humiliated if Littlefinger is to be believed.

How funny is that? And yet, I believe him. I think my mental faculties have been pretzel-ized.