S05.E03: High Sparrow

[Mya Stone]

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Episode Synopsis: 
Cersei meets the High Sparrow after learning of a clergyman's embarrassing tale. Meanwhile, Davos talks to Jon about the future of Winterfell, where Ramsay Snow has just learned the identity of his future bride; Arya grows impatient doing menial tasks in the House of Black and White; and Tyrion searches for more comfortable surroundings on a long trip with Varys.

[Tara Ariano]

Nick's post on the episode:

Brothel, Can You Sparrow A Dime? Westeros's houses of ill repute are dangerous places to be these days.

[janjan]

WOWWWWWW!!!!!!!

 

Ja'qen's place is mucho depressing. I liked him better in his Lannister soldier suit; he's not so hot in a dress. And turning into David Koresh. Hang onto that sword, Arya. Yeah, yeah, you have to out with the old before you can in with the new, but that takes faith. And I just lost mine.

 

LF to Sansa: "You're a Stark. Don't you want justice?" [or vengeance - I forget which word he used.]  We spat it correctly, O Wise and Prescient Unsullied -- LF sees that the Lannister star is fading and now seeks alliance with Bolton Though it's not clear yet what LF gets out of it. But Sansa has become quite a Fingerette:  After staring at Roose for a cold minute, she smiled sweetly in greeting him. I'm starting to like her. (Never thought I'd say that.)

 

How long can Theon hide?

 

Ah Slint, or what's left of him. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Jon looked just like Ned in S1E1. Stannis was impressed.

 

Bolton admits he needs LF and the Eyrie, because he doesn't have much strength without Tywin Lannister. So what is Stannis afraid of that he needs the Free Folk to fight for him when he has that big honking CGI army? He should be afraid of Brienne but he doesn't know that yet.

 

To get meta for a moment: How hard must it be for the actress to give Brienne's speech? As it was for Dinklage to listen to Charles Dance calling him a misshapen little whatever. A Show doesn't pull any punches.

 

Jorah is taking Tyrion to the queen. We're probably supposed to think he means Cersei to collect the bounty, but I betcha he means Dany to get back in her good graces.

 

Mountainstein is the new The Thing. In the original "The Thing," when they found a huge alien body frozen in the Arctic ice, one of the party got tired of looking at him and threw a blanket over the ice block. Sadly, it was an electric blanket. The Thing that emerged was played by Marshall Dillon (James Arness.) He was not friendly.

 

Margie to Cersei: "Would you like some wine? It's a little early in the day for us." Hee!

 

What does Cersei hope to gain from an alliance with the Head Sparrow? And how long will it take him to become disillusioned with her, not that he has any illusions to begin with. Just please don't bring Lancel back.

[stillshimpy]

Oh for fuck's sake, this is just silly.  "The North Remembers!"  Apparently not much.  It doesn't make a lick of sense that those so loyal to all things Stark (Ned, Robb, blah blah blah) would rally around because Bolton managed to have Sansa promised to friggin' Ramsay. I  don't mean "Hey, I'm ticked because for the eighty billionth time, I have guessed incorrectly"  because god, gods and stray aliens know I'm pretty used to that sensation.  I just don't find it in the least plausible. 

 

So Sansa, engaged to Joffrey before and after Ned's Incident of the Head.  Also, wrote letter denying Robb's claim to the throne.  Okay.  Married to Tyrion Lannister.  Righty-O.  Suspected in a plot to kill Joffrey, but one that is blamed on Tyrion . Still more, "sure, yeah" and then witness to Lyssa's suicide.  

 

All of that shit can be put down to "that poor girl...such a pawn..."  ...mabye.  By about the third incident nearly everyone would wonder just how bad any one person's luck could be.   But the mere fact of accepting  a proposal of marriage from the people who murdered her family?  

 

Yeah, no one is rallying round that.  "The North Remembers" and apparently the North is painfully dim, or the meaning behind that was more "...and we hate you, because at this point, it's impossible to believe you couldn't help any of this stuff."   That's an implausible plot.   It's actually really irritating the hell out of me because I can't stand Ramsay and if you add more stupidity to anything involving him, it really compounds the problem.  What a tedious freaking story.  

 

Jorah is taking Tyrion to Dany though, right?  He just fast-tracked Tyrion's ride to Mereen?  Maybe?  I was really glad to see him, but if he tries to sell Tyrion to Cersei, he can just go right to hell as far as I'm concerned.  

 

Oh....good for Tommen  He seemed happy.  So he's a dead duck, I'm guessing.  

 

To get meta for a moment: How hard must it be for the actress to give Brienne's speech?

 

Well, in the case of the actor playing Brienne, she's actually really quite adorable with a dynamite figure.  They really make her far, far plainer than she actually is, so hopefully it's not too bad.  I'm with you on Tywin's berating Tyrion though.  I still flinch when thinking about the way he said "waddle" .  Gah.  

Edited April 27, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Jan Snow]

Yeah, no one is rallying round that.  "The North Remembers" and apparently the North is painfully dim, or the meaning behind that was more "...and we hate you, because at this point, it's impossible to believe you couldn't help any of this stuff."   That's an implausible plot.   It's actually really irritating the hell out of me because I can't stand Ramsay and if you add more stupidity to anything involving him, it really compounds the problem.  What a tedious freaking story.  

Uhm...not everything is as it seems? Its "the north remembers" at every turn. Watch out Boltons.

 

Lovely episode all around. Very talky, reminded me of season 1. Jorah and the in-universe Daenerys cosplay. I'm still laughing. 

[Pallas]

Damn, we're good. Among us all, over the last month or so, we pierced together what look to be several major plotlines of the season.  Of course we all understood well in advance that Robb was doomed in going to the Twins for Edmure's wedding, yet none of us foresaw the horror.  So while I feel absolutely sure that Jorah can only mean Dany when he says, "The Queen,"  I suppose we could be in for one more strumming of the cellos as Tyrion is delivered to Cersei...

 

But no.  I'll say no.  Varys tripped up when he said he and Tyrion were bound for Volantis (not Mereen) and he always intended to hand Tyrion over to his agent, Jorah, to be brought to Dany.  Varys has other plans for Varys.  

 

I think Sansa's symbolic value to the North is simply her lineage.  Just as her personal qualities don't matter a whit to the Boltons, her resume in having been passed from lord to lord may be of little concern to the North.  She was an instrument, not a player, someone who cannot be judged or valued as if she had (or should have) any agency, as if she were capable of any independent acts or role of her own.  It just doesn't matter that she was betrothed to Joffrey or wed to Tyrion.  No more than one would weigh a broodmare's lineage against the merits of its former owners, would a family in need of the right bloodline consider Sansa's former connections.  She is merely a vessel for the making of heirs who are direct descendants of a rightful Lord of Winterfell.

[janjan]

That's an implausible plot.   It's actually really irritating the hell out of me because I can't stand Ramsay and if you add more stupidity to anything involving him, it really compounds the problem.  What a tedious freaking story.

Suspension of disbelief, Shimpy. So Roose is dumb. I can un-disbelieve that. (Ramsey has no more to say about it than Sansa does.) How can we get lots more gory wars and sneaky revenge plots if the Boltons are left in peace? If Sansa doesn't get him, and then Jon tries and fails, there's still time for a grown-up Rickon (a different actor, I hope) to swoop in and mash him like a walnut. Bran could take him easily, of course, but he's too busy apprenticing with Gnarly Root Dude and probably refereeing the duel of WWs vs. Dragons, coming soon to a continent near you.

[Jan Snow]

So Roose is dumb.

Why is it a dumb move? Blood commands. If an heir is born to that union the north will end up bending to him. 

[90PercentGravity]

So Arya is the Daniel-san of Essos. Wash on, wash off, Arya-san.

 

Also, to everyone who was begging for the return of Jorah, F-you!

 

I feel like I recognize the woman in the brothel, but I don't know why... Maybe she just looks like someone else. Morena Baccarin?

 

What's Cersai's game? Why is she even bothering with the sparrows? Is she trying to get to Lancel (who got super hot btw)?

[Pallas]

What's Cersai's game? Why is she even bothering with the sparrows? Is she trying to get to Lancel (who got super hot btw)?

 

I think she's trying out the idea of aligning herself with this dynamic, populist reform movement within the established church.  She could then re-brand herself as the New Queen Cersei.  Newer than the younger Queen Margaery. 

[WhiteStumbler]

HEY! I wasn't "was begging for the return of Jorah" so much as hoping for. I didn't think it would end like that. Jeebus. Tyrion + Jorah = new road trip! Or is it a new Midnight Run?

 

Jorah: I wasn't in the whorehouse as a customer, I was the technical adviser for hair and costuming to the "Mother of Dragons" floorshow.

 

Volantis was different than I expected, but I liked the bridge shot. Amazing effect. I liked the callback to this...

Talisa: What if I told you my father sold lace on the long bridge and my mother, my brother, and I lived with him above our shop?

Robb: I'd call you a liar.
Talisa: Not very noble to accuse a lady of dishonesty. I always thought I was a brilliant liar.
Robb: Better at amputations, I'm afraid.

 

Did everyone see the different "gods" in the Faceless Men Academy, including the weirwood face and the fiery heart of the Lord of Light? And the one god face appeared to be weeping as the dude who drank from the Jaquen Death Spring cup died in front of it. Sort of like how some of the weirwood trees appear to be weeping?

 

ETA: And the High Sparrow is Cardinal Woolsey from Wolf Hall! Plus he was in Brazil.

Edited April 27, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[Anothermi]

Cardinal/Sparrow was a bit of a head scratcher for me at first. I knew I'd seen him before but I kept thinking it was on this show! Took me a while before the penny dropped.

I didn't get a good look at the different "gods" in the FM Academy, WS. Now I'm going to have to re-watch, and this episode made me so nervous I almost couldn't pry my mouth open I'd clenched my teeth so hard during it. (Shiver)

Edited April 27, 2015 by Anothermi

[janjan]

Pallas: he [Varys] always intended to hand Tyrion over to his agent, Jorah, to be brought to Dany.  Varys has other plans for Varys.

If Varys leaves A Show, I quit. It's bad enough we are deprived of his dagger-edge sparring with LF, but to be deprived of Varys altogether? No, Show, that is too much, a fardel we cannot bear.

 

I'm not convinced that Varys was in on the abduction of Tyrion. He tried his danged'est to keep Tyrion from going out. And Varys must know that Dany has banished Jorah.  But still, Varys did let slip that he had, er, misrepresented their destination. Dunno what to make of that.

 

Count me among those who hoped Jorah would stay away. I lurved Iain Glen when he played Hamlet in "Rosencrantz and Gildenstern Are Dead," but he's been totally blah as Jorah. Maybe it was just his mooning over Dany that got tiresome, like Jon's adolescent emo'ing. Jon grew up -- now he's a life-taker and a heart-breaker. Jorah, a married man by the way, should just get over it.

[abcfsk]

If servants are left in Winterfell they'd sure welcome a Stark face after the shitty people they've been serving lately. Doesn't have to be more to it. When your family is slaughtered and you have no apparent blame in that I think the rational thought for most people would be that you're being dragged around by the perpetrators, not ganging up with them. Especially when you started out a little girl. So yeah, I think they'd welcome Sansa and possibly expect her to do some good. 

[Anothermi]

I liked that we were given the back story on how Pod came to be Tyrion's squire. Good old Tywin.

But Tywin sent Pod to Kings Landing to become Tyrion's squire. Does that mean Pod originated from lands that were subject to Tywin? Are all Paynes from there? I used to think Tyrion chose Pod because no one else would have him due to him being the executioner's relative but it seems there are other Paynes. Illyn Payne lost his tongue but became (apparently) a trusted executioner. Pod almost lost his life, but became a very trusted squire. I'm sensing a little bit of a pattern here...

But on another tangent, if Tywin had the power to pardon Pod he must have been the Authority Figure 'round those parts - like Ned. If Ned was warden of the North, what was Tywin warden of? The Rocks? The Coast? The Rich Lands? Or did he do that as newly appointed Hand of King Joffrey? It would have had to have happened around that time.

Important stuff here. It keeps me from thinking about Sansa and that guy I don't want to think about.

[stillshimpy]

I think Sansa's symbolic value to the North is simply her lineage.  Just as her personal qualities don't matter a whit to the Boltons, her resume in having been passed from lord to lord may be of little concern to the North.  She was an instrument, not a player, someone who cannot be judged or valued as if she had (or should have) any agency, as if she were capable of any independent acts or role of her own.

 

Oh, I get that part.  It's supposed to be about the blood in her veins, not the thoughts in her head.  However, and it's a really big fucking "however" ,  it can also really easily be interpreted as the last and worst sleight to the Stark name and honor.  Bolton and Ramsay have -- to keep it concise -- really done absolutely-devoid-of-honor things to all things Stark.  I just do not buy that the North would be so "Oh, well then, bygones!  A Stark at Winterfell.  There you go.  Peace throughout the land."   and more likely to the "You can't possibly expect us to view this as anything other than a naked insult to the tattered remnants of all things Stark?"  

 

We just heard about how Ramsay skinned alive a loyal Lord and his wife, while forcing their son to watch.   There is no match that smooths that shit over.  If someone is actually loyal to the Starks, watching the last remaining Stark -- that anyone knows of -- married off to that creature would not curry favor nor still the turbulent waters.  

 

Also, I'm not too sure who would show up for their wedding reception, but here's a tip North: RSVP "Sends Regrets".  

 

Additionally, Jesus Christ Almighty, show/Martin, pick a new story to tell with Sansa, would you?  Yes, yes, I get it.  Sansa was a silly little girl who dream of marrying the Prince and becoming a queen.   It's been five seasons of kicking the shit out of her for believing in silly stories.   Dig another well, pick another forest.   I mean, on the one hand, well done!  "Who is actually worse than Joffrey?  I know!  Let's marry her off to..."

 

Then of course there's the whole business of poor Brienne about to ride to the rescue and meet Ramsay with his peeling obsession.   Meanwhile that poor wretch Theon will scurry around, with enough glimmer in him to assure us all that he gets just how much wrong he's done and what it all helped to bring about.

 

The horse isn't just dead, it has had time to reincarnate five times over again.  Move on, story.   Move on.

 

Maybe Varys intends to meet up with his true partner in crime and the only person able to keep pace with him, Littlefinger?  Jorah can take Tyrion off to ....I am going to stick with Dany, not Cersei and may their road act be more interesting to watch than the ceaseless whining and drinking done by Tyrion.  

 

So, it's clear that I have lost patience with a couple of story elements, but I did enjoy the episode.  I even enjoyed watching Sophie Turner's face before greeting Lord Bolton.  Great work all around.  

 

Oh man, I just realized what Arya's story is reminding me of and why I got a little tetchy about it too ,  that whole set up reminded me of the Ghost Remnant* on The Leftovers.  If you aren't familiar with them,  don't worry, having made the connection of what it was reminding me of, I can now let it go.  They aren't even related, it was just the initiate having to divest herself of all possessions from her former life that was doing it.  Nothing more.  

 

Hey, so Stannis and Jon Snuh?  They make each other more interesting on screen.  I think the actors must like working together.   Also, Stannis's original offer to the Wildlings was actually a good one.  Fight for me, I'll make you citizens of the realm.   It's his whole obsession with joints and what to do with them that causes the only true hiccup.   

 

I can't even say, "Poor Sansa" because unless she plans on killing the lot of them by poisoning the food Ramsay shovels down, it's hard to feel sorry for her.  She could have said, "No.  Emphatically, no."   Also, Ramsay saying, "I'll never hurt her.  I give you my word."  Yeah.  Shit.  I actually can say, "Poor Sansa" again. 

 

*Actually, I think it might have been Guilty Remnant.  I just thought Ghost Remnant was a much better name.  

Edited April 27, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

OMG! This episode was dabomb! I really, really liked it. Now first of all, I'M SORRY!!! I'm so, so sorry I even speculated Sansa marrying Ramsey, I take it back!! Seriously, I didn't think it'd happen, none of my spitballs do. It's the worst that could happen to her! On the other hand, I kind of liked the spin it took when LF mentioned "vengeance" and Sansa's expression changed. I have no idea what LF would get from it, but I'm sure we'll find out soon. However, I do understand why Sansa went along with it. She's planning on taking them from the inside. I wouldn't be surprised if she tries killing Ramsey in his sleep. Or more likely, LF's plan all along is to have her poison them all. Isn't that always his style? Does she still have that necklace? She could get help from servants and even Theon (he serves the food). So, that's what LF gains with it, he gets rid of the Boltons, marries Sansa with Robyn and get the North and the Vale. Then, he'll get rid of Robyn and marry Sansa himself. A powerful couple indeed. The only problem is, they're not counting on Ramsey being a freaking sadistic bastard. I honestly think LF doesn't know about it, he told him he hadn't heard much from him. Soooo, they're plan could seriously blow up in their faces.

 

All of that shit can be put down to "that poor girl...such a pawn..."  ...mabye.  By about the third incident nearly everyone would wonder just how bad any one person's luck could be.   But the mere fact of accepting  a proposal of marriage from the people who murdered her family?

No one cares about Sansa. They just care that she has the right blood, "A Stark has always ruled the North". If all of her brothers had died for real (which people think they did) she'd be the rightful heir, no matter who she marries. Granted, they must not be too happy about it, but all they care is a STARK will inherit. They're not behind Sansa, they're not behind the Boltons, but they will get behind a baby Stark. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, but that's what's stupid about the whole heritage lordship thing. We have seen it over and over during history. They even put a baby on the throne if it has the right blood. And they're used to making alliances with their enemies by marriage. Heirs marry traitors all the time. Even Dorne, who hates the Lannisters are willing to have an heir with Lannister blood. Their Little Prince will marry Myrcella. I know the northerners are not happy, but they'll be easier to pact with. However, what I think will happen is Sansa and LF will find some sympathizers and get rid of the Boltons and then everyone will be happy. Or not, this is GOT.

 

But why, oh why is Stannis so careful about attacking the Boltons?? They cannot even hold their own against the northerners, they need LF's help, they don't have enough troops. Stannis has a WHOLE super refresh army. So, he wouldn't actually be able to take the whole North, since the other lords wouldn't accept it, but he can easily take care of the Boltons. If Stannis were smart, which he isn't, he'd make an alliance with the northerners to get rid of Bolton. But as allies, not this whole shit of "bend your knee to me". The Northerners would rather die than bend their knees to Stannis. Of course, that's not how Stannis works...

 

I don't remember who speculated that Jorah would find Tyrion and bring him to Dany to get her pardon. Another correct spitball!! I thought Hell would freeze over before Dany would align with Tyrion, like some of you said, but I think that's what's going to happen after all.

 

So Arya is the Daniel-san of Essos. Wash on, wash off, Arya-san.

Ha! That's what I thought! Hey, Arya don't you know you're actually learning killing sweeping moves! Didn't you ever see Karate kid? The House of B&W was how I expected it. I mean, I didn't really imagine anything, but it was weird, mysterious and didn't make any sense at all. That's kind of what such a place should be. I'm still confused about their god, I thought they worshiped the Red God? And now is the God of Many Faces, sooo, one of those faces is the Lord of Light?

 

I think booze has finally burned all of Tyrion's remaining brain cells. He might as well put a sign on his forehead saying he's Tyrion Lannister. It was like he was playing 20 questions: "I used to be super rich, I was famous for always paying my debts, I used to hang around with queens and such. I'm obviously from Westeros. And now I look like beggar and seem to be on the run. Who am I?". Oh, I know, I know! Tyrion Lannister! F*CKING IDIOT! Varys should abandon him to his luck, he's done enough for him already.

On the other hand, I think it was very funny and realistic that Dany is the latest sensation all around Essos! From street preachers to whore houses, everyone wants to get a piece of the Mother of Dragons!

 

Can anyone tell me what's the freaking timeline for this show? Joffrey had to wait about 3 or 4 seasons to become of age and get married. Tommen was even younger than Bran and Robyn when we first saw him. But now, he's not only older than them both, he can actually get married without having to wait for anything! He's already about Joffrey's age. Meanwhile, Arya seems to be the exact same age she started with, Sansa is one year older, Myrcella apparently is younger than Tommen now (since she hasn't married yet) and the only age we know for sure is that Robyn is 14, but just 2 years ago he was still breastfeeding!! WTF???

Edited April 27, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[stillshimpy]

OMG! This episode was dabomb! I really, really liked it. Now first of all, I'M SORRY!!! I'm so, so sorry I even speculated Sansa marrying Ramsey, I take it back!! Seriously, I didn't think it'd happen, none of my spitballs do. It's the worst that could happen to her! On the other hand, I kind of liked the spin it took when LF mentioned "vengeance" and Sansa's expression changed.

 

So it was you!!! YOU DID THIS!!! Curse you, Butterfly, curse you!!! 

 

Completely kidding, of course, if that isn't extremely obvious.   It was a good spitball.   I don't know why the hell I ever think, "No come on, even this freaking bleak tale wouldn't go there..."  but I still maintain it doesn't make a shitload of sense.  Or really much.  Or any.  

 

 

 

No one cares about Sansa. They just care that she has the right blood, "A Stark has always ruled the North".

 

No.  Not buying that.  Here's why: Why do they care about Stark blood?  Do they just have a hemoglobin obsession?  I submit to you that no, they do not.   They have so little understanding of bloodlines that it took a full season for anyone to figure out that all Baratheons have  dark hair.    So yes, they care about Stark blood, but because of the behaviors and the values it represents.   Not as like....a prized ottoman passed from generation to generation.   As a thing that carries with it an expectation of what having Stark blood means.  

 

Again, patriarchal society too, so the whole "We will unite the families and the clans will be appeased."  Nope.  The name Stark will be just as dead as it ever was and all things Bolton will fly their banner.   About the only thing that having Sansa at Winterfell would accomplish to those loyal to the Starks, because they behaved honorably and in a trustworthy fashion (which is why they give a shit about a Stark being at Winterfell) ....is that they wouldn't want the last remaining (that anyone but the Umbers know about) Stark to be skinned alive by Bolton.  

 

But it shouldn't actually appease anyone.   The whole joining of houses by marriage thing is a thing in the real world.  But it doesn't do anything if there's no one surviving that house and the name will be obliterated by the people who like to flay.  

 

Now, having really gone into that at length, it's really quite possible that's exactly where the story is taking that.  Bolton doesn't understand loyalty or what inspires it.  He thinks it's about bloodlines, when it's really about what those bloodlines have reliably done and as "All Hail the Stark blood in Sansa's veins" as it is, his own, displayed in his savage and sadistic son, still pollutes the scene so much that you can't tame the North with an empty gesture.  

 

I don't know what Littlefinger's game really is, but he knows that on some level too and he wouldn't have done something to actually solidify Bolton's hold on the North.   So I will wait and see, but I think Bolton is grossly underestimating why anyone cared about the Starks.   It isn't just about blood, it's about honorable blood, which he doesn't have.  

 

Also, Mountainstien stirred.   Eek.   

 

I don't know what's going on with Cersei, but I almost felt sorry for her with Margaery, because Margaery was really grinding her heel in on it all.  Then I remember, "Oh yeah, Cersei could have had a friend and ally in Margaery, but instead she decided to threaten to gut her like a fish if she called her radiant or mother or sister, again."   

 

It would be nice if Cersei got to go home to Casterly Rock on some level.  The only thing I can think of with the High Sparrow stuff is that Cersei suspects that guy of having sent Lancel and his very thinly disguised "Hey, remember that time we totally conspired to kill the King?  The High Sparrow does, because I confessed all to him!"  

 

This really was a jam-packed episode, wasn't it?   Also, I'm willing to admit that I get kind of a kick out of the guy who plays Bolton.  He just has so much withering disdain for everyone and everything.   He's like a speaking ice-cube and every line he utters is crusted in frost.   When he told Ramsay to stop eating and listen to him, it was one of the scariest moments in the show for me.  

 

I can't even explain it, because I would invent a gleeful dance, a whirl; a fling, hell there might be clogs involved to really pound home the point; if there is ever a day when Ramsay just dies.   But Bolton remains the scariest bastard this show has yet produced.  

 

Oh and the one thing that gives me a ton of pause every time Brienne has been on this season?  Yammering on about the shadow with Stannis Baratheon's face.   So....yeah.  That bodes ill.  Admittedly, everything with Brienne tends to be a case of "Oh dear, that sounds like something bad will come of that" whether I worry about Ramsay skinning her (which, I do) or about her actually meeting up with Stannis and killing him before he can kill the living hell out of Bolton (please Brienne, wait until after, at least).   Or that she'll try to avenge poor, dead Renly, fail (because....Brienne and failure are likethisclose most of the time) and Melisandre will burn her alive, because...this show.  

 

ETA:  Or the short version?  Bolton can't negate what the name Bolton means now.  Not even by adding Stark to the mix.   Stark might mean "Honorable, trustworthy, decent and lawful" ....but he made sure that the name Bolton means "Deceit, Cruelty, Disloyalty" and by naming Ramsay his heir he basically found the only person worse than Joffrey in all the land.  

 

You can't void being Ivan the Terrible with any marriage.  

Edited April 27, 2015 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

This is just. ugh. I can't even...

I don't think Sansa and LF are going to be able to pull this one off. There's way too many unstable variables.

1) Ramsey is sadistic. His promising to never hurt her almost seemed sincere. My stomach lurched during that conversation.

2) After their arrival and Ramsey/Sansa said their hellos, the camera panned to Ramsey's sex-buddy. Remember hunting the girl that sex-buddy was jealous of? Good god what's she going to do to Sansa?

3) Theon is obviously hiding from Sansa. He hasn't visually seen or spoken to any Starks since he's been Reek-ed. Could Sansa snap him back to reality?

 

But why, oh why is Stannis so careful about attacking the Boltons?? They cannot even hold their own against the northerners, they need LF's help, they don't have enough troops. Stannis has a WHOLE super refresh army. So, he wouldn't actually be able to take the whole North, since the other lords wouldn't accept it, but he can easily take care of the Boltons. If Stannis were smart, which he isn't, he'd make an alliance with the northerners to get rid of Bolton. But as allies, not this whole shit of "bend your knee to me". The Northerners would rather die than bend their knees to Stannis. Of course, that's not how Stannis works...

Stannis offered the North to Jon "Stark" Snow.  That's how he would accomplish both taking the North and holding it.  Now that Snow says no, it will be interesting to see his next move. He could really do anything. If he takes Winterfell, he will spare Sansa most likely, kill the Boltons, and possibly run into Brienne... Spitball a'hoy!

Can anyone tell me what's the freaking timeline for this show? Joffrey had to wait about 3 or 4 seasons to become of age and get married. Tommen was even younger than Bran and Robyn when we first saw him. But now, he's not only older than them both, he can actually get married without having to wait for anything! He's already about Joffrey's age.

 

My guess is A Show had to age him up so that he could even be in the nude scenes with Margaery (legally speaking). Also, so A Viewer could get less squicked out.

[Jan Snow]

But it shouldn't actually appease anyone.   The whole joining of houses by marriage thing is a thing in the real world.  But it doesn't do anything if there's no one surviving that house and the name will be obliterated by the people who like to flay.  

 

Now, having really gone into that at length, it's really quite possible that's exactly where the story is taking that.  Bolton doesn't understand loyalty or what inspires it.  He thinks it's about bloodlines, when it's really about what those bloodlines have reliably done and as "All Hail the Stark blood in Sansa's veins" as it is, his own, displayed in his savage and sadistic son, still pollutes the scene so much that you can't tame the North with an empty gesture.  

 

I don't know what Littlefinger's game really is, but he knows that on some level too and he wouldn't have done something to actually solidify Bolton's hold on the North.   So I will wait and see, but I think Bolton is grossly underestimating why anyone cared about the Starks.   It isn't just about blood, it's about honorable blood, which he doesn't have.  

YES! Thats totally it. He expects the blood and name to be enough, but I'll eat a hat if either he or Ramsey don't make it through the season.

[Fools Gold]

Since the beginning of the season, it stroke me as odd that Varys's plan was just to appear in Mereen with Tyrion Lannister. Since Varys was Illyrio's friend, he can argue a long loyalty to the Targaryens and a certain degree of involvement in Daenerys protection in Pentos. Besides he has a particular set of skills that would be very valuable to her and that she has no way of building by herself. So there is a reason why Daenerys would consider making him advisor despite his loyal service to the Barahteons-Lannister. 

But, in Daenerys eyes, Tyrion can only appear as an enemy. There is no reason why she should trust him at all. And how would Varys look if arriving with a Lannister (and their fame of buying everybody) as a beloved friend?.  
So, whith that in mind , I don't know if I can think of Tyrion kidnapping just as coincidence.

[ChocButterfly]

My guess is A Show had to age him up so that he could even be in the nude scenes with Margaery (legally speaking). Also, so A Viewer could get less squicked out.

Oh, yeah, I know. The time I saw they replace the actor from a 8/9 year old kid to a 15 year old, I knew he was going to do the nasty with Marge; because why else make such a drastic change? What irritates me is that they used the excuse to postpone Joffreys's wedding for several seasons because he needed to become of "age". They could've just said the wedding was on stand by until the whole war was over.

Also they made such a BIG deal of Sansa being just a little girl when she married Tyrion. Granted, Tyrion is a lot older than Marge, but the issue was Sansa's age, not Tyrion's. And now Tommen is able to get married just like that, even first than his older sister, who is waiting to also become of age to get married. No one has said anything about him being a boy, in spite of the fact that in reality he shouldn't be older than 10!!!

 

These inconsistencies really irritate me. And I'm still grossed out, because Marge, whom I like, now looks like a statutory rapist.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[stillshimpy]

I think they've also aged Myrcella (Myrella?) Chocbutterfly,  We saw Ellaria glowering at her (bonus points for also having veins jump out in her forehead) in the gardens below and she looked to be about 14-15.  

 

I just tell myself that clearly more time than I thought has passed, but I'm with you on being pretty conscious of "Hey, during the Blackwater, this was the kid young enough for a story on his mother's knee (before being poisoned) so I try not to dwell on however old he is supposed to be, or not be.  

 

Weird thing about the entire deal was just how little fuss was made about the "married now!"  After seasons of preparing for Joffrey's various weddings, it was a little startling to go from "Preparing" to "consummated, don't think about it, LA! LA! LA!" of it all in literally two scenes.  

[DirewolfPup]

I'm sure after the last wedding, they wanted to go simpler ;)

 

Margaery's not a rapist in any sense of the word. In recent Earthly history, people got married off very very young. Mycella has to wait until she's "of age" because she needs to bare children. As far as Tommen vs Joffrey coming of age, plot-wise, I'd guess that they wanted the marriage consummated and producing heirs ASAP.

[WhiteStumbler]

Some characters returned (Jorah the Explorer), and one of the prime movers in Ned's betrayal in the throne room was beheaded by one of Ned's surviving children (so long Janos, you baby-killing monster), but WHERE WAS BRAN?

[ChocButterfly]

Margaery's not a rapist in any sense of the word. In recent Earthly history, people got married off very very young. Mycella has to wait until she's "of age" because she needs to bare children.

Well, I really don't view her as a rapist at all, but it was kind of creepy, nevertheless. I'm glad for her, though, she seems very happy and she went from psycho Joffrey to sweet Tommen. Lucky girl. I do think they could be happy. He should send Cersei away and just let the Tyrells do the ruling. They seem to be more efficient. Also I did find it hilarious the whole "this ALL I want to do for the rest of my life, ALL the time ever!". Heh. That sounds exactly like what a horny teenager might say.

If Myrcella, by now, hasn't gotten her period, there's something wrong with her.

 

I did think Marge was wayyy too confident in teasing Cersei. I wouldn't poke her if I were her...But I loved that exchange and I'm waiting for more of that!

And the Sparrow thing, when the fanatics caught that Bishop I was sure they were going to behead him or something. But then they only humiliated him. I think it was a fair, well deserved punishment. And then he had the guts to complain?? I'm glad Cersei got him locked up. I think for once she's being smart about supporting these fanatics. I know she's going against the established hierarchy of the church, but something makes me think she should go this way.

 

I almost forgot, Jon. That was cold. I understand why he did it, and I was completely on his side at first, but when the guy begged for mercy and he stopped, I was sure Jon was going to forgive him and just send him to that other Castle. After all, he did comply at the end, that's worth something, right? But I can't say I'm sorry he's dead, good riddance.

 

ETA:

WHERE WAS BRAN?

He's growing roots somewhere under that tree.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[stillshimpy]

and one of the prime movers in Ned's betrayal in the throne room was beheaded by one of Ned's surviving children (so long Janos, you baby-killing monster), but WHERE WAS BRAN?

 

Yea, verily.  I hadn't thought of that, but I was glad that Jon hesitated, but did not fold.   I also like how Thorne made the conscious decision to go ahead and throw Janos Slynt to the Wolf thereby stepping aside and leaving him to the sword.  It was an interesting bargain that Jon had struck there.  

 

I do wish that Melisandre would do a spot of candle-gazing, or whatever it is that she does when she looks into a flame and it tells her something like "haul ass to the Wall, no seriously" because I wish Stannis would start rolling towards Winterfell.  At least, I think I wish that.  I kind of don't want Stannis and Brienne to meet up, because whereas she has a point -- killing Renly as a smoke monster summoned from the nether regions of Melisandre was an unworthy move on Stannis's part -- he's actually the best bet for taking out Bolton.   

 

Now, admittedly, I'm not going to mind even one tiny bit if Sansa kills them all and lets the Ravens pick their bones clean at Winterfell, before Stannis can even arrive.  I just don't think it is all that likely.   

 

I'm also still super shocked that Littlefinger gave up Sansa as easily as he did.  I don't know exactly what I envisioned him doing, but he went to a LOT of trouble to acquire Sansa and it truly surprised me that he married her off.  

 

So...spitball.   He can't possibly be in the dark about Ramsay's nature.  I mean, there were skinned bodies hanging around the joint.  We've come to learn over the seasons that Littlefinger was always setting things in motion from afar somehow, or someway.   

 

What does he really have planned for Bolton and Ramsay?   Because not to put too fine a point on it, but Roose Bolton had Cat's throat slit and if nothing else, I think Littlefinger wanted Catelyn around to see him win the game and see what she'd lost (in his mind).   Maybe I'm wrong and he never had a genuine feeling in his entire little thwarted life, but that's the other thing that is sort of bugging me  

 

Littlefinger -- to put it friggin' mildly -- is apparently capable of really holding onto a grudge.   So how does he feel about the guy that was chiefly responsible for Catelyn dying?  

Edited April 27, 2015 by stillshimpy

[90PercentGravity]

Besides he has a particular set of skills

 

Great, now I am imagining him as Liam Neeson menacing people with ravens.

 

Wasn't it Varys who ordered Jorah to kill Dany? I think Varys has a bigger problem than losing Tyrion if Jorah makes it to Mireen,

[gingerella]

And the Sparrow thing, when the fanatics caught that Bishop I was sure they were going to behead him or something. But then they only humiliated him.

I thought that Bishop was the useless Tyrell dude, Emma Peel's stupid son, no?

 

I almost forgot, Jon. That was cold. I understand why he did it, and I was completely on his side at first, but when the guy begged for mercy and he stopped, I was sure Jon was going to forgive him and just send him to that other Castle. After all, he did comply at the end, that's worth something, right? But I can't say I'm sorry he's dead, good riddance.

Well, you also have to remember that when he was shrieking that he was scared, he IS a fraidy cat, it was he who hid in the dark inner recesses of Castle Black with whatshername (Sam's lady buddy), remember that? I am pretty sure it is now known that he hid during that battle, so he is essentially useless to the Night's Watch because he would desert or hide when push comes to shove, so he is of no use to Jon or the NW, in fact, from this perspective he is actually a liability because who knows what he'd do in an emergency situation?!  But Jon knows that he would not pull through or do the right thing to protect his men, he would hide or surrender so why allow him to live and put other NW in peril? I think Jon did the only thing he could, given the person in question and his inability to uphold his oath as a NW. I am glad Jon sacked the hell up and did what a leader has to do, though the echoing of S1E1 and Ned's first beheading we saw was not lost on me last night. Also not lost on me, was the words spoken by Poor Man's Sean Connery to Jon about his oath to protect men and wouldn't he be better protecting by fighting with Stannis...that? Was a great and very brief speech, IMO. Now A Viewer can see a way for Jon to leave The Wall, if even for a few months to fight with Stannis.

 

I also very much liked seeing Sam taking a greater and more robust role amongst the NW. I loved when he quieted down the rabble rousers during that meeting with an air of mature authority that we have not yet seen from Sam. I could see Jon leaving him in charge if he rides with Stannis to take Winterfell, and I could see Sam delving further into his magic lessons to help protect the NW from what's coming at them.  Oh, and Jon did say, though rather lackadaisically, Winter Is Coming...yeah, no shit Sherlock!

 

I.Cant.Even. with Sansa right now. Damn you ChocoButt, for the worst spitball to come true yet in A Show! ;)

 

LF seems to play the long game all the time. Looking for the long con all ways, always. So he must have a long game in all of this. I don't think he cares all that much that Cat died at Bolton's hand, he would likely say she deserved it for not choosing him long ago. But I honestly thought he wanted Sansa for himself and I wonder what he would have done if she'd said no, she would not marry a Bolton. I half expected her to say "why cant I marry you?"  I really thought she was about to say that until he mentioned vengeance and then a little light went off in her head. Is Ramsey worse than Joffrey? Not really IMO. Joffrey was a bit more genteel, if that's possible, but lest we forget what he did to whores.  Ramsey is like the hillbilly version of Joffs, no pretending to have manners or anything of that nature, just do the perverted shit and smile about it whilst telling Daddy Dearest. 

 

As for Reek turning back into Theon and Doing The Right Thing? I doubt that will ever happen. If he didn't help his own sister, would he feel more loyalty to a Stark girl? Maaaybe because the Starks raised him technically, so maybe he would feel more kinship towards Sansa, but I doubt it because let's face it, A Show likes fucking A Viewer up the ass with nasty, horrible shit. Sorry for that graphic reference but it's really childsplay compared to what A Show throws at us each season. So yeah, I am not holding out hope that Theon helps Sansa. I think she might think he will help her and mistakenly confide in him without fully understanding what has been done to him, and I could see him outing Sansa's Big Plan Of Revenge at some point, if indeed that's where she is heading. I do think Ramsey's fuck buddy will not take too kindly to Sansa though, and that troubles me.

 

ETA: I don't think that Varys was in cahoots with Jorah at all, I think it was a happy accident for Jorah, and he saw a way to ingratiate himself with his Khaleesi again...much like a dog bring a dead bird back to its owner, wagging its tail like it's done a wonderful thing for its master. And count me in on the Varys Love Train, there has got to be more of a story for Varys, he is to me, the most intriguing character A Show has gifted us with and I could hear him talk for an entire episode of monologue. I dare A Show to give us one entire epi of Varys expositing about A Show!

 

Oh, and I was definitely squicked out by the thought of Marge riding the Royal Baloney Pony, and I'm surprised Tommen was even able to do the deed, he looks so young. Blerg! It was also equally as squick worthy when Marge mentioned Tommen's sassy time skills to his mother. What.The.Fuck?! Who says that shit to their mother in law?! Uch. But I could not make out what the hell Cersei was implying when she repeated twice, "I am here if you need anything at all..."

Edited April 27, 2015 by gingerella

[DirewolfPup]

Sansa didn't "bleed" until she was about 15, right? I don't think anything's wrong with Mycella if she is in fact 14-15. Girls getting periods in their preteens is also a very modern phenomenon. I've actually read papers on the subject. I have really bizarre reading habits apparently.

gingerella, that was a perfect summary of the beheading of Janos Slynt. Good for Jon. That was a good choice on his part. I was worried his hesitation would lead to mercy which would lead to Slynt getting someone killed by being cowardly. 

[WhiteStumbler]

Beheading Janos Slynt was the boss move so far this season. It strengthened Lord Commander Snow's hand with everyone -- Thorne knows that JS will. not. take. shit., the rest of the NW see how Jon treats disobedience and cowardice, and the One True King sees that JS takes his vows seriously, is not overly swayed by sympathy, and knows how to execute someone without torturing them.

I liked Lord Janos getting beheaded almost as much as I liked watching Tyrion dispatch him to the Wall. Which makes me think of Bronn because of this...

Tyrion: To the new Commander. (toast) If I told you to murder, an infant girl say, still at her mother's breast, would you do it without question?
Bronn: Without question? No. I'd ask how much.

 

He and Jaime are going to be quite the pair in Dorne.

[ChocButterfly]

Sansa didn't "bleed" until she was about 15, right?

HA! She looked 15 or more, but she actually "bled" way back in an earlier season, and when she married Tyrion she was supposedly 14...So yeah, no. Maybe she was 13? I don't know, the first 3 or 4 seasons were supposed to be like a year only, while in this one, time is running fast!

 

ETA: I keep forgetting who Janos was. But I found it peculiar that he kept calling Jon a "bastard" and repeating how important he was, his titles,etc. Isn't that supposed to mean nothing at The Wall? You forsake all titles and everyone is supposed to be the same. Clearly, this isn't the case, since most of the bosses have been lords and such. But at least is refreshing to know there is at least one place in that whole universe where leaders are actually chosen by the people instead of inheriting or taking it by force. If you think about it, The Wall is the most democratic place of all.

And yeah, I agree, Jon definitely did the right thing. He's going to be respected and admired now. Contrast that to last week's similar situation facing Dany. In this week, Jon actually hesitated and not going ahead with the beheading would have been the wrong call.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[stillshimpy]

As for Reek turning back into Theon and Doing The Right Thing? I doubt that will ever happen. If he didn't help his own sister, would he feel more loyalty to a Stark girl? Maaaybe because the Starks raised him technically, so maybe he would feel more kinship towards Sansa, but I doubt it

 

Seriously.  I highly doubt there will be a moment when Theon reaches deep and finds some deeply hidden reserve within him that will in anyway aid Sansa.  

 

It's more like at a crucial moment, when Sansa has hidden from Ramsay, in for her life and her literal hide, Theon will begin shrieking, "She's behind the tapestry, maester!  Behind the tapestry!!! There! There! There!  I want my cage!! Kill the girl!  I want my cage!" because that's more likely where this is heading than anything. 

 

That and that poor freaking Sansa will see Theon, try to talk to him.  He'll babble about being called Smelly, or some such, and she'll know that she's in the worst spot yet.  

 

Plus, yes, Ramsay's favorite girl was giving Sansa the death stare.   It's more likely that the Hound miraculously survived someway, somehow and at a crucial moment he'll pop out from a dungeon, save her life  and then attempt to ransom her back to half the Kingdom, eventually selling her to Littlefinger who, while at least being an intelligent monster, is a monster nonetheless.  

[90PercentGravity]

I don't know. Theon barely knew his sister. He grew up with Sansa. The Starks were more family to him than the Greyjoys ever were.

[janjan]

Gingerella: I thought that Bishop was the useless Tyrell dude, Emma Peel's stupid son, no?

No, he was the High Septon who officiated at the marriages of Joff and Tyrion (not to each other, of course) and told Cersei that the lords and ladies waiting to see Tywin lying in state had come a long way. Lord Tyrell still sits on Cersei/Tommen's Small Council. I suspect his mother (Olenna) permits that just to keep him out of her way.

[stillshimpy]

I think it's truly possible that Theon didn't actually recognize Yara, or thought she was in on trying to trick and trap him, hence losing his entire mind when she showed up to save him.  

 

However, I don't think it's going to make any kind of difference that Theon grew up with Sansa.  He grew up with Robb.  He grew up with Luwin and Ser Roderik too.  

 

Being like family to him didn't make much of a difference to Theon when he was in his right mind and whereas we don't know what he would have done if he'd found Bran and Rickon, we do know he had two little kids killed as props in their stead.  

 

I don't think he's riding to anyone's rescue then or now.  

Edited April 27, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

Shimp: I highly doubt there will be a moment when Theon reaches deep and finds some deeply hidden reserve within him that will in anyway aid Sansa.

Yeah, it's more likely that she will think he'll help her but then he betrays her in allegiance to Ramsey.

 

BTW, Ramsey's promise to LF was strange and should have set off alarm bells (assuming that LF sees Sansa as a asset). Most fiances would likely promise to make her happy, love her dearly, etc., but he promised not to hurt her. We know that's what he's most likely to do, but it's an odd thing to promise out of the blue to someone he's just met. But LF didn't react.

 

Was that Kool-Aid they were serving at the House of B&W? Ja'qen is now creeping me out. I want Arya out of there, stat.

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy: I don't think he's riding to anyone's rescue then or now.

Exactly. I think that A Show has gone so far out of its way to show that Theon is now Reek that I will be disappointed if he somehow 'snaps out of it' and does something to save Sansa. Could there be a way where Reek aids Sansa by doing nothing? Sure. Or that he inadvertently helps her while attempting to do what Ramsay wants? Sure. But I don't see him actively going against his Reek-onditioning. Then again, I am feeling reeeeeaaaaly manipulated by the Sansa + Ramsay BS "plot twist". It just doesn't fit for me.

 

My take on the House of B&W is that it is some sort of sacrificial altar for the "One God" (death) where people commit suicide and that somehow provides sustenance to the various aspects of "god", and that the Faceless Men then use the bodies as their new faces. I watched in HD in a dark room (because the shots were sooooo dark and full of terrors, so I probably missed a bunch), but that was my impression.

[stillshimpy]

Then again, I am feeling reeeeeaaaaly manipulated by the Sansa + Ramsay BS "plot twist". It just doesn't fit for me.

 

I know I've already been on and on about this, but it really, really doesn't work for me, so I'm glad to have company.  

 

 

 

BTW, Ramsey's promise to LF was strange and should have set off alarm bells (assuming that LF sees Sansa as a asset). Most fiances would likely promise to make her happy, love her dearly, etc., but he promised not to hurt her. We know that's what he's most likely to do, but it's an odd thing to promise out of the blue to someone he's just met. But LF didn't react.

 

There's just no way that Littlefinger wouldn't know about Ramsay and his hobbies, so that wasn't one of the weirder things to me. Everything else?  Weird.   There's a reason Bolton thinks the match is necessary, Littlefinger would know all those reasons too.  So yeah, he'd have to already know and it made sense, to me, that Ramsay promised that...because he went well out of his way to earn that brutal reputation and revel in it.   

 

That's -- again -- why the whole "Marry him to Sansa and it will heal the fractured North" stuff is just sort of goofy.  Ramsay flayed a loyal lord and lady alive.   The only thing he could marry to make up for that in the eyes of other Stark supporters is the grave....and maybe that's really Littlefinger's plan.  Hence his lack of reaction.  It's just I didn't spot him leaving behind guards aplenty .  Maybe he really grew to believe that Sansa could think on her feet quickly enough to avoid anything truly unpleasant.  

 

Or far more likely, he just doesn't care what terrible thing happens to her.  Last season he really seemed to, now he's dropping her off with the freaking Texas Chainsaw gang.  Littlefinger is an erratic character.  

 

 

 

Was that Kool-Aid they were serving at the House of B&W? Ja'qen is now creeping me out. I want Arya out of there, stat.

 

It's not Jaqen that is creeping me out, it's that the whole damned place is designed like a crypt.  Arya's little bunk area looked exactly like a nook in medieval crypt to me.  That and what was with the girl who is messing with her for no reason I can name?  She gave me the creeps a lot more than Jaqen did.  That and her speech about "and a coin you did nothing to earn"....uh, how is the coin generally earned?  Mostly its the set dressing in early-to-mid-sepulcher that is giving me the shivers.  

 

Another place I thought would seem cool and instead was done up in various shade of gray was Volantis.  That's where Talisa was from, right?  

 

I begin to understand why she left.  "Welcome to Volantis, the whole place looks like a rotting tiered pier."  

Edited April 27, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

Disagree (respectfully, of course) re: Volantis. I thought the establishing shot was amazing. What it showed was a looooong inhabited bridge (I'm guessing across the river Royne?) leading to an elaborate and quite stunning city spread across several hills. Yes, this is where Talisa was from -- she tried to tell Robb that she lived "on the Long Bridge" above her father's lace shop. Volantis is also where Shae got on a boat for Dorne.

[gingerella]

Beheading Janos Slynt was the boss move so far this season. It strengthened Lord Commander Snow's hand with everyone -- Thorne knows that JS will. not. take. shit., the rest of the NW see how Jon treats disobedience and cowardice, and the One True King sees that JS takes his vows seriously, is not overly swayed by sympathy, and knows how to execute someone without torturing them.

I know, right?! Boss move indeed! I think Stannis will fall more deeply in man love with Jon Snow than he already is because he will see himself in Jon. Not for nothing, but Stannis, like Ned, is more in love with honor and Doing.The.Right.Thing than pretty much even boning Mel on a dinner table. Dare I say, Stannis gets off on honor and all that shit. So yeah, I see him having a big ol man crush on Jon Snow right about now, but who knows if it'll be reciprocated and whether Jon will heed Poor Man's Sean Connery and decide to take some men, or just himself, and help Stannis overthrow the Boltons and take back Winterfell. If that happens, I see Jon going back to the Wall at some point, but that's what I think today, I could change my mind tonight.

 

I found it very interesting that there was another Red Witch in Volantis, for some reason I thought only Mel did what she did, but apparently there are others just like her. Interesting...Also creepy as hell when she locked eyes with Tyrion...Maybe Red Witches have the ability to see into people thus the weird looks Mel gave Jon. That said, in thinking of the Rubic's Cube Theory, we see more Lord of Light people elsewhere and in the Free Cities no less (wait, is Volantis a free city, I cant remember?). And we see a plethora of "gods" being maybe not worshiped but at least provided offerings in the House of Perpetual Sweeping and Dead People, but A Man clearly said that they only worship the One True God, right? Is that the Lord of Light too, or something else? Because the old gods and the new are both multi-deity religions aren't they, IIRC? 

 

Also, related to A Man and The House of B&W, folks up thread were talking about how these were a legion of highly trained assassins, but I don't think that's the case. I say this because when Arya presented her coin to the Braavos ship's captain, he immediately was taken aback with what I perceived as deep reverence for this girl who apparently was connected to the House of B&W, which he obviously knew of because he rowed her there and dropped her off personally.  He never seemed scared of the place he was taking her, though he clearly had no intention of overstepping his boundaries and accompanying her to the door, but it felt to me like he was highly respectful of that place and those associated with it, but not fearful in a "holy shit, are you a highly trained face shifting assassin? sort of way.  I rather think this is a very highly select religious order under the umbrella of whatever religion they are practicing. As for the men who keep showing up, drinking from that well and dying? Maybe they are Old Men who were one A Man and then became Nobodies, and they come there to end their life when it's time? The way Arya and Miss Bitch Face were cleaning that one guy's body indicated a ritual of cleansing for the dead, common in many cultures. It was not something one would do for someone that just wandered in off the street, yanno? I think this crew are like totally badass Benedictine Brothers and Sisters who happen to reach such religious attainment that they are then able to shift faces, along with becoming defenders of assholery committed against their One God.

 

ETA:

Disagree (respectfully, of course) re: Volantis. I thought the establishing shot was amazing. What it showed was a looooong inhabited bridge (I'm guessing across the river Royne?

Shit man, how did you know that river had a name?! Am I that clueless when I watch A Show that I miss this sort of thing?! Or do you watch many times to grab little details like that? I feel clueless...!

 

Also, re: the Boltons thinking a Stark in their house will appease the Northern Folks, I actually do think they are stupid and shallow enough to think that such a match would at least go part way in shutting up the Northern Folk. I could also see them using Sansa, or her safety as a pawn in their end game. As in, if you all don't fall into line with us, we will do heinous shit to your beloved Stark girl so straighten up and bend the damn knee to the Boltons now! You know what I mean? You know WHY I think they are stupid and shallow enough? Because even though Roose knows his bastard is fucked up, he still gave him his name anyway. Roose doesn't seem to bother finding out just how very fucked up his own kid is though, which doesn't bode well for, well, anyone really.

 

Edited April 27, 2015 by gingerella

[WhiteStumbler]

ginger: how did you know that river had a name?!

I have watched and re-watched a bunch of times. A Fan needs a re-watch like a sword needs a whetstone. ;-)

 

Talisa: (talking to Robb) When I was 12, my mother and father went to a wedding. Weddings in Volantis last for days, you know, and they left me with my little brother. The second afternoon they were gone was the hottest day in the three year summer. We couldn't bear to be inside, so we ran down to the Royne. Every child in Volantis was in the Royne that day. The rich, the poor, we were all there, naked, screaming, racing to the little islands....

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I don't really understand why Roose Bolton didn't set about producing an heir with his bride.  Then again, as far as we know she's simple-minded, seeing as I don't think we've ever seen her speak.  

 

I agree that Bolton is fully capable of believing "This, this will appease the Stark Bannermen" because he deeply doesn't get what honor is and what it might mean to anyone, what with possessing none himself.  

 

 

 

but it felt to me like he was highly respectful of that place and those associated with it, but not fearful in a "holy shit, are you a highly trained face shifting assassin?

 

Dude, the guys on the street fled like terrified antelopes when Jaqen's other face showed up behind Arya.  I don't think they are just a highly revered religious order.  As for the assisted suicide, or whatever,  I just assumed it was a former member of the order, come to the end of his days.  Something menacing is going on there though, that little lying girl who claimed to just be playing was up to no good and Jaqen seemed to know that.  

 

Disagree (respectfully, of course) re: Volantis. I thought the establishing shot was amazing. What it showed was a looooong inhabited bridge (I'm guessing across the river Royne?) leading to an elaborate and quite stunning city spread across several hills.

 

I seriously didn't see any city, but I may have been busy obsessing about something at the time.  I do that a lot.  

Edited April 27, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

WS: A Fan needs a re-watch like a sword needs a whetstone. ;-)

Actually, Frey said "a sword needs a sheath," but we won't go there. Especially with Walder Frey.

[gingerella]

Dude, the guys on the street fled like terrified antelopes when Jaqen's other face showed up behind Arya.  I don't think they are just a highly revered religious order.  As for the assisted suicide, or whatever,  I just assumed it was a former member of the order, come to the end of his days.  Something menacing is going on there though, that little lying girl who claimed to just be playing was up to no good and Jaqen seemed to know that.

Yes I know that but the guys on the street were street thugs trying to shake down Arya or worse rape her, so perhaps they've run afoul of A Man and his crew a few times and seen what they can do to perps. To me that still does not a ruthless assassin make. There is clearly a code of ethics that A Man abides by as seen with him saying that x number of men live so x number of men must die, or whatever the hell he told Arya at Harrenhell. He serves One God, and apparently from what we saw last night, there is ritualistic offerings, be it keeping a flame lit in front of each deity, or offering life for life as we saw him do with Arya and her hit list.

 

I have watched and re-watched a bunch of times. A Fan needs a re-watch like a sword needs a whetstone. ;-)

And here, WS, is where we diverge my brother of the Spitball Wall, because you approach re-watches with the boldness and bossness of Jon Snow, whilst I, I'm afraid, approacheth such things with the timidity of Janos Slynt. I am ashamed, ashamed I tells ye...

Edited April 28, 2015 by gingerella

[Pallas]

How great to come here after the long day that followed a momentous episode.  I'd say it's like immersing in a warm and yet invigorating bath, until I recall some of baths we've been treated to on A Show.  No-burn Dany at Illyrio's; Viscerys and the exposition whore; Jaime and his stump, fresh from months of captivity beshitting himself while tied to a post, and days on the road among Boltons...Anyways.

 

If Varys leaves A Show, I quit. It's bad enough we are deprived of his dagger-edge sparring with LF, but to be deprived of Varys altogether? No, Show, that is too much, a fardel we cannot bear.

I'm not convinced that Varys was in on the abduction of Tyrion. He tried his danged'est to keep Tyrion from going out. And Varys must know that Dany has banished Jorah.  But still, Varys did let slip that he had, er, misrepresented their destination. Dunno what to make of that.

 

I don't think we'll lose Varys much before the final credits roll.  In some ways, it's his Game to lose.  I just think he'll settle in Volantis to continue his strategizing, rather than join Tyrion in Mereen.   As for the abduction, I suspect Varys's original plan was that he would exit one door of the coach while Jorah entered by another.  But that wouldn't give us the views of Volantis or the scene in the whorehouse, so Tyrion must be humored and Jorah sent to a convenient whorehouse to await them.  (Signaled how, by Varys?  Little birds, everywhere.)  

 

I agree that Bolton is fully capable of believing "This, this will appease the Stark Bannermen" because he deeply doesn't get what honor is and what it might mean to anyone, what with possessing none himself.

 

I agree with this too, shimpy, and your longer statement of the same argument.  After I posted about what the Stark bloodline would mean to the North, I later thought, "At least, this is how the argument runs, and Roose Bolton's flaw is that he would buy into it, cynically -- too cynically in fact, when it comes to the Starks and the North."  I do think, in the long run, having a Stark descendant as heir would be a small concession and consolation to the conquered bannermen.  But for now we can hope that Bolton's realpolitik may be the dagger to Roose's own heart when Sansa proves capable of inspiring or even instigating a revolt.  Roose's fatal flaw may be that as a Northerner and Stark bannerman himself, he still worries about gaining the obedience of fellow Northerners he conquered -- while at the same time, as you say, he will never understand what moved people whose sigil isn't a flayed man, to honor the Starks.  

 

I think Theon may regain enough of his humanity to simply want to die, and so, risk being killed.  He won't save Sansa -- he may die trying to help, perhaps in even a small way, and before he's even able to accomplish that.  Or hell:  he may at least let Sansa know that her two brothers escaped the fall of WInterfell, and just might be still alive.  

 

I also agree that the prospective marriage of Sansa and Ramsey -- and may it never come to pass; may Brienne as well as Sansa have some hand in that -- has more shock value than validity.  That's why I counter-proposed the idea of Littlefinger's selling Sansa back to Cersei.  It did seem that it was about Show-time for Sansa's current false protector to do her spectacularly wrong.  I think her marriage to Tyrion was also a little spurious, in the same way.  More shock than sense.  I'm not sure Tywin would ever want Tyrion to reproduce, would want any of Tyrion's get to rule anywhere as Lannisters.  But the bold bad taste was meant to make us gasp, and greased the plot like pig's shit. 

 

So what does Littlefinger have in mind?  He played matchmaker brilliantly, starting with his (I don't think sincere) notion that Sansa had the right to refuse, to his holding out to her the hope of vengeance.  Does he have anything in mind for her to do, or was she simply his Braavosi coin, his Valor Morghulis, to gain entry to Bolton's Winterfell and an alliance?  How soon and in what way will he now turn on Bolton?  

 

And lordie -- does Littlefinger have possession of Ned's body? He did, last time it was seen, when he did his Richard III wooing of Cat's Lady Anne, in Renly's camp...did he spirit Ned's body away with him before Stannis arrived, and will he bring Ned's body back to Winterfell?

[janjan]

Pallas: a warm and yet invigorating bath, until I recall some of baths we've been treated to on A Show.

And then there's the bath Ramsey gave Reek while instructing him to pretend to be Theon. And the Kool-Aid drinkers in the House of Perpetual Sweeping (TM Gingerella) bathing the dead guy. . .

 

I think I'll stay dirty.

[ChocButterfly]

That and what was with the girl who is messing with her for no reason I can name?  She gave me the creeps a lot more than Jaqen did.  That and her speech about "and a coin you did nothing to earn"....uh, how is the coin generally earned?

 

I thought at first the little girl was kind of an ass, but then I understood where she was coming from. I agree with what Ginger said, the House of B&W must be sort of a religious order, they seem very revered. So serving there should be an honor and a privileged. I don't know what they have to do to get it in, but it must be earned. Then along comes this foreigner girl, who doesn't even understand their religion, doesn't know their god (blasphemy!) and is now an apprentice? Why? Add that to Arya's general attitude, which is not the best, to say the least, and I can see the girl being pissed at having to share crypt beds with her. 

 

I think the whole experience will be good for Arya, she needs to learn patience and humility. She's too arrogant sometimes, and she thinks she's the shit. I mean did she really think she could take 3 men by herself on that alley? She starts insulting and threatening first without thinking of the consequences. The only reason she's alive is because the Hound had her back and then Jaqen. She's too impulsive. Now, she will learn RESTRAIN. And yeah, so much needed humility.

But then again, I believe at least they should have started with some sort of instructions for her, this whole, no one is talking to you, no one is explaining anything, must be frustrating!

[stillshimpy]

Bolton's realpolitik may be the dagger to Roose's own heart when Sansa proves capable of inspiring or even instigating a revolt.

 

That's exactly where I think they might be taking it.  Sansa as Lady Jane Grey , Ramsay is Guildford Dudley and  Roose Bolton = John Dudley.   Let's hope they veer from replicating the tale too much and that Sansa gets to keep her head, but that's what they seem to be going for in this Sansa, Our Lady of the Perpetual Wishbone via Matrimony.  

 

Also, I wince at the thought of Guidlford Dudley being equated to Ramsay.  Guildford was just as used and manipulated.   Also, if that's what they are thinking then here's hoping that Sansa gets to show more agency and thereby keeps from having to do the deed with Ramsay AND gets to keep her head (one of the more alarming aspects of the entire thing:  Conjugal bliss with Ramsay: may the seven fly to your aid there, Sansa).  

 

 

 

I think the whole experience will be good for Arya, she needs to learn patience and humility. She's too arrogant sometimes, and she thinks she's the shit. I mean did she really think she could take 3 men by herself on that alley? She starts insulting and threatening first without thinking of the consequences. The only reason she's alive is because the Hound had her back and then Jaqen. She's too impulsive. Now, she will learn RESTRAIN. And yeah, so much needed humility.

 

Absolutely agreed, but remember what Melisandre said to Arya about how many people Arya would kill.  I really don't think the House of Black and White is just a religious order.  I think it is a religion, I just think that bringing death is a big part of it.  

Edited April 28, 2015 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

The House of Black & White could be a religious school and assassin training. The one true god that Ja'qen referred to is presumably the "god of death," which we learned about through the Braavosi, Syrio Forell. The House certainly has plenty of death going around.

 

I, too, hope and wish that Arya learns to calm her stabbing hand more than a little. The way she threatens stronger, adult men really gives the impression that she's like a yippy little dog. If a little dog attacked you, it would suck, but a person or medium sized dog could easily over-power them. Such is Arya.

 

When the other girl was picking on her, Arya's reaction was to pull out needle and... stab her? threaten her until she goes away? I kind of question Ja'qen's motives here. Why would he want Arya McStabby Stark to join what seems to be a very slow, patient, religious training realm of assassin/everyman's? That seems like poor judgement on his part.