S05.E03: High Sparrow

[90PercentGravity]

I thought Jaquen served the Red God.

[janjan]

I really don't think the House of Black and White is just a religious order.  I think it is a religion, I just think that bringing death is a big part of it.

Yeah, it's like a boot camp, where the first order of business is to strip away the previous identity and then instill a new one. I guess monastic orders are like that also -- it's just that boot camps are about creating a mean green fighting machine. I'm worried now -- I don't want them stripping away Arya's humanity. 'Tis true that her personality has come near getting her killed several times, so she could use a little toning down. But not obliteration. Get out of there, Arya -- go find Jon. And take Needle.

[DirewolfPup]

It's weird to think that we've only lost one Stark child of the five + Jon. Aside from Jon and Sansa, everyone in the realm assumes that the other three are dead, so it's weird to remind myself. "oh yeah! The Starks have lost about the same as the Lannisters*."

 

*Tywin & Joffrey vs Ned, Cat, & Robb

Edited April 28, 2015 by DirewolfPup

[WhiteStumbler]

DirewolfPup: The way she threatens stronger, adult men really gives the impression that she's like a yippy little dog.

Arya: What do the Goldcloaks want with you?

Gendry: No idea.

Arya: You're a liar.

Gendry: You shouldn't insult people that are bigger than you.

Arya: Then I wouldn't get to insult anyone.

 

I think that janjan is correct -- "I don't want them stripping away Arya's humanity", and that  stripping away of identity, of humanity, is what is required to become Death incarnate. I would be gutted right now if she had tossed Needle in the lake, but I hope she took the time to give her sword a good coat of oil before hiding it in the pile of rubble.

[gingerella]

I wonder now if A Girl at the House of B&W - the girl Arya is at odds with - is really even a girl at all now. Perhaps she is A Boy, who can already change their face at will?  Just working up the spitball muscle here, you know, use it or lose it, right?! Annyway, I kept wondering that the other night watching A Show. Is that really a girl, or is it a person with the face of a girl, meant to make Arya feel less alone amongst what appears to be mainly men right now.  You know who else I could see somehow stumbling into the House of B&W? Rickon, that's who. Because he's the wild child in every sense of the word and maybe he has the killing gene in him too. But then again, I also agree with Choc or whoever it was who said it would be sad if we lost Arya's spirit and moxy. I too, think girlfriend needs to learn humility and patience and cunning, as in learn when to coil back and observe and when to quietly strike like a deadly cobra, not this out of control on-the-rampage anger that she always has just under the surface.  The fact that she did not toss Needle into the sea bodes well that she will retrieve Needle again at some point in time. I don't think her decision to bury Needle vs. toss into the ocean is meaningless, I think she will need Needle again, either when deciding that Ja'quen's way is not her way, or when she is ready to go back out into the world as a Nobody.

[ChocButterfly]

I'm not really worried about Arya loosing her identity, I don't think she ever will. She'll learn to fake it and more important, she will learn temperance, which I think she really needs. So I think she'll emerge a stronger more mature Arya, who may or not may believe in that religion. But she'll agree to the tenets of the religion, if only to get her goal, the list.

 

When the other girl was picking on her, Arya's reaction was to pull out needle and... stab her? threaten her until she goes away? I kind of question Ja'qen's motives here. Why would he want Arya McStabby Stark to join what seems to be a very slow, patient, religious training realm of assassin/everyman's? That seems like poor judgement on his part. 

Agree, I don't get why he chose her to train. Maybe it's because like you say, it's mainly a religion of death and he saw in her a good recruit to turn into a death agent.

I thought Jaquen served the Red God.

Me too, he even said so. So maybe this faceless God is the same as the Lord of Light? They don't seem to have anything in common. I don't get it.

Edited April 28, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[90PercentGravity]

I think there was confirmation that the Red God and the LoL are the same thing? Thoros (or whoever it was) spoke of the Red God, which we found out was the same as LoL when he sold Gendry you Mel. I think.

If there is only one true God in his world then it has to be LoL.

Edited April 28, 2015 by 90PercentGravity

[ChocButterfly]

Yeah, they are the same God, and Jaqen did say the "Red God". But now no mention of it, only the "many faces God". Plus, none of what we saw this episode has anything to do with the LoL. There's the "Valar Morgulis", but no "the night is dark and full if terrors". It doesn't seem like the same religion. Did they make a mistake back in that season when Jaqen said the "Red God"?

 

Speaking of the LoL, shouldn't that red priestess wear a red dress like Mel??

[90PercentGravity]

I suppose just because it is the same God doesn't mean it is the same religion. Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God, afterall.

[WhiteStumbler]

90PercentGravity: Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God, afterall.

Blasphemer! There is only one true god as there is only one true king! Stannis and the Lord of Light -- both get shit done, for the night is dark and full of terrors.

[Anothermi]

Jan Snow wrote:

EDIT: are we allowed to post screenshots here as proof or as a means of discussion? I've got HBO NOW so obtaining them in high quality is easy.

We've had a rather serious problem with posting of screen shots in this habitat last season. So, we adopted a house rule (see Friendly WhiteCloaks: Questions and Proclamations) to only post links to a screen shot. Some posters may not want to look at the screen shot so this gives them the option to bypass it. 

 

If you have further questions about posting etiquette just post them in that thread. It's a good idea to read that thread anyway so you don't end up asking something that has already been answered. 

Edited April 29, 2015 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

What seems like a dark portent: King Stannis comes to the office of Jon Snow, Lord Commander, to continue his wooing of Jon.  Stannis speaks of how many of the Watch would prefer that the Wildlings be executed, and that he -- Stannis -- is leaving that decision to Jon.  Within that there was a cut to Olly, who Jon had insisted remain in the room to observe their conversation, as a teaching moment.  Stannis leaves, after he and Jon have their cute little exchange about keeping your enemies close.  Olly is not agnostic on the subject of Wildlings.  Will he go to/be used by Alister Thorne in setting up a revolt by the Watch against Jon (once ailing Maester Aemon's Watch is ended)?   

 

Meanwhile: might Aemon, on his deathbed, tell Jon that he regrets not going to his family's defense, when he had the same choice?  Or at least, repeat his much earlier advice that Jon should not be guided by Aemon's example: that each man needs to make his own decision when faced with such crucial forks in the road?   And perhaps underscore Davos's point that the purpose of the Watch -- and so, the moral meaning of Jon's vow -- is to defend the world against its greatest threats.  That Jon, by his own instincts and actions, has made potential allies of the Wildlings.  Where lies the threat now?  Would the North, under Roose Bolton, join in the coming fight against the White Walkers?  Can Stannis, if Bolton defeats him?

[DirewolfPup]

Pallas, I'm really digging this Aemon death-bed spitball. Aemon definitely has shown that he has a special connection with Jon. They both come from prominent families. Both families suffered greatly while they sat at the wall as a bystander. 

 

During the LC vote, Aemon was the tie-breaker vote for Jon. If he wanted JS to take Stannis up on his offer, he probably wouldn't vote for him to be LC. I think Aemon sees Jon as a "lifer" on the wall like he has been. Jon, just like Aemon, went through a lot of personal demons to justify their staying on the wall. Clinging to honor and duty above all familial ties. Maybe Jon will be uncertain about taking up at Winterfell, but a chat with Aemon on his deathbed will solidify his place at the wall for the rest of his life.

 

I almost wish the opposite was true. At the vote, Aemon's tie-breaker goes to the other guy. Jon is hurt, betrayed, angry, embarrassed. Jon's sense of honor and duty still leads him to reject Stannis' offer. Aemon, on his deathbed, speaks with Jon about the vote.

     MA-"[guy who's name I can't remember] has done an admirable job as LC, Jon Snow. He is just and fair. I see these traits in you, stronger than even you can see yourself."

     JS-"Then why vote against me?"

     MA-"Your sense of honor and family has virtue for the wall, but even more so for Winterfell, Lord Stark."

     JS-<brooding stare>

[stillshimpy]

I think that Davos already gave Jon the necessary work-around for going to defend Winterfell if need be.  

 

Jon's reaffirmed that bloody Oath so often that unless the damned thing melts, he's a brother of the Night's Watch.   So I think the only way to convince Jon to pick up his sword and defend the realm from the innter-workings of the realm, is to convince him that his Oath obligates him to do so.  I think Ser Davos got that done and more power to him on that.  

 

Stannis shows such an interest in Jon that I sort of wonder where they are going with that.  Like will he offer to name Jon his heir next?  

 

 

 

We've had a rather serious problem with posting of screen shots in this habitat last season. So, we adopted a house rule (see Friendly WhiteCloaks: Questions and Proclamations) to only post links to a screen shot. Some posters may not want to look at the screen shot so this gives them the option to bypass it.

 

Seconded.  It gives me the urge to stick pins in things on top of all else, so just FYI: I won't look but if others want to, have at, it's just having a choice in the matter is better.  Also, way to go for the English Understatement with that anothermi :-)  I wish we had a "said dryly" font.  

 

Also, linkage to Friendly Whitecloaks Thread provided here.

Edited April 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[gingerella]

Pallas, I'm really digging this Aemon death-bed spitball. Aemon definitely has shown that he has a special connection with Jon. They both come from prominent families. Both families suffered greatly while they sat at the wall as a bystander.

Me too, me too!  That said, even though Davos did the needful by giving Jon the necessary justification to take back Winterfell with Stannis (for the good of the realm, to quote a favorite character), Jon is nothing if not stubborn, and it'll take a gigantic shoe horn to pry his fine ass out of Castle Black and towards Winterfell. I think it can be done, but it'll take more than Davos' speech, IMO. I also think he will need to get his little squire kid under control because I could see that kid pulling the same shit that dude did in Mireen and then Jon would have to behead a child. That? Wouldn't go over so well with he Wall brothers, IMO, and I feel like that kid is a loose canon, or can be under the right circumstances.  Or should I say circumStannis's? ;)

 

One thing we've not talked about this episode is its name - High Sparrow. I find it perplexing that the name of the episode comes from perhaps the scenes with the least attention and story history. We only two episodes ago learned that Cousin Lannister became a sparrow, and he appeared to be "uber holy and righteous" but not sinister in any way that I caught whiff of.  Now suddenly, his sect is busting into brothels and dragging clients out into the streets naked to shame them publicly (heh, gotta love spell check because it wants me to say 'pubicly'), and then Cersei goes to see the "High" Sparrow...It felt like the name of the epi should be related to something more prominent in A Show thus far, and yet the name of this episode is taken from the storyline A Viewer knows the least about right now.  So it gives me pause to consider that the Sparrows are about to play an enormous role in A Show very soon. Discuss...

[WhiteStumbler]

gingerella: Now suddenly, his sect is busting into brothels and dragging clients out into the streets naked to shame them publicly...

But don't forget that it wasn't Random Client #7 who got dragged out of the brothel, but the Septon who performs the marriage ceremonies in the Sept of Baelor (and who has enough pull to get into a meeting of the Small Council to plead his case). Why would Cersei have any interest in these holy and righteous people who are feeding the poor and shaming the hypocrites? I think she either A) seeks to improve her reputation and gain some 'street cred' after the crowds were clamoring for Margerie at the wedding with Tommen, B) wants to get some intel on Lancel and what dirt he may or may not have been spreading about The Drunken Stomp Hunt, or C) she hopes to somehow manipulate the Sparrows into assisting her - perhaps as a new set of "little birds" for Qyburn? Ooooh, I like that!

Spitball: Cersei wants to use the Sparrows as new spies among the lowborn for her new Master of Whispers, Qyburn.

[stillshimpy]

One thing we've not talked about this episode is its name - High Sparrow. I find it perplexing that the name of the episode comes from perhaps the scenes with the least attention and story history. We only two episodes ago learned that Cousin Lannister became a sparrow, and he appeared to be "uber holy and righteous" but not sinister in any way that I caught whiff of.

 

Yeah, i am perplexed by that also.  As you guys know, elsewhere I was sort of on tenterhooks wondering what it meant that the episode title was listed as TBT here, because I thought that meant some serious shit was going to go down in this episode.  Like mind blowing, "Wow! They can't even reveal the title without it being a big deal?  What could it be, what could it be?"  because since I use a season's pass for my DVR, I don't even see the episode descriptions, but I usually see the episode title here.  

 

So I don't what I was expecting, but I was expecting something freaking major to happen with Shoeless Sparrow when I did see the title.   

 

Sparrows, in some religions and belief systems are the messengers of the dead.  That doesn't mean a lot, because in a lot of different belief systems birds are spiritual messengers and it varies from belief system to belief system which ones are supposed to be from the dead.  Plus here, I think we already know that a three-eyed-raven is the one in charge of messages from beyond.  Or so it would seem from Bran's dreams.  

 

So the Sparrows must be about to get up to some serious stuff if they not only rated the episode title, but kind of a big chunk of story time.  

 

Impiety seems to tick them off and I can't imagine how Cersei will use that to her advantage.   Now, there is a god called The Maiden, right?  For whatever reason it looked like she was depicted as having her face concealed by a long braid in the brothel scene, I think.  Someone the high Septon chose had a braid right in her face and I think he said The Maiden.    

Maybe like a veil?  That an unmarried woman's face had to be concealed to protect her purity?  

 

Stick with me here for a second, because I'm going on a historical tangent:  Henry VIII first wife was Catherine of Aragon.  She was six years older than Henry when they wed and she had been briefly married to Henry's older brother Arthur, who died within six months of their marriage.  Seven years later she was married off to Henry and originally he was in love with her.   Also, they did have sons, it's just none survived infancy, one making it past his first birthday (I'm going into this for a reason).  

 

However, by the time Anne Boleyn made the scene, Henry was frustrated with the lack of a surviving male heir, Catherine of Aragon was very unlikely to be able to bear any more children.  Henry actually had the marriage annulled  (as opposed to the popular belief that he divorced her) on the grounds of the supposedly incestuous nature of marrying the wife of ones brother.  Even though Catherine of Aragon always swore that the marriage with Arthur was never consummated , it was the easiest excuse to get rid of her when Henry wanted to "set her aside" basically.   

 

So I'm wondering if the whole "The Septon is a pervert" blah blah blah and Tommen marrying his brother's wife -- although Olenna made sure Joffrey died before he could lay one hand on Margaery -- I'm wondering if Cersei isn't going to try and turn Tommen from Margaery with some kind of trumped up "She was married to Renly, your uncle AND your brother" and Margaery not being new to the whole business of sex might not be something Cersei tries to enlist the Sparrow on?  

 

I mean, it was open war -- passive-aggressively, of course -- between Marg and Cersei with Margaery being the current victor.   

 

But Cersei had to have something in mind when visiting the High Sparrow.   

 

Also, it would be sort of a hoot if Cersei was planning on getting rid of Margaery through some claim of "The terrible, incestuous nature of their union brings a curse upon the kingdom".   

Edited April 29, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

Or should I say circumStannis's? ;)

Stannis is Jewish?!

 

Yeah, good point, Shimp, about  the potentially incestuous nature of Margie's new marriage, with echoes of Henry VIII. They've been paralleling English history in various little ways, including the shape of Westeros and the difficulty of bringing the North under control (eat your heart out, Edward Longshanks.), So maybe that's where Cersei's thoughts are going. A hoot indeed.

[gingerella]

Hmmmm....yes, I think what we saw last epi was Cersei sussing out in person, who/what this High Sparrow nonsense was all about, and how she could use it to her advantage.

 

WARNING: Outgoing spitball...I remember being perplexed when Cersei said twice to Marge, and very clearly too, "Please come to me if I can do anything for you..." or something to that effect. She was VERY clear, Come.To.Me.For.Help.  But old Marge, remembering Cersei's cunty past behavior towards her, smiled as insincerely as she possibly could muster, and said fakely, "Oh yes" or "Oh of course" or something like that. She was placating Cersei quite plainly yet Cersei was trying to send a message, or so it appeared to A Viewer.

 

Then Cersei goes to check out the High Sparrow. She doesn't take anyone else's word for this phenomena, she goes herself, walks right up to the head dude and inquires as to what he's doing, what he's all about. Interestingly in that exchange, Cersei is not her usual dismissive, utterly bitch self. No, instead she comes across as bemused yet mystified, perplexed yet impressed by "The People" and their reaction to this High Sparrow. She sees a reverence that I think she thought was only reserved for the uppermost rulers of the Seven Kingdoms, with her "class" at the top of that heap. Yet here amongst the gutters and the destitute, she sees a reverence that is perhaps more pure, and hence stronger in its purity, because it's not driven by greed or trying to one-up the guy next to you. It's about serving those most underserved. 

 

So what does this all mean? What does it translate into for A Show's future path? I do like the notion that Cersei has seen the writing on the wall and knows that the public currently loves Queen Margaery,and they fucking hate the Dowager Queen, so how to regain her power? Ingratiate herself with this powerful and ever-growing "religion" and become their inside connection to the Crown because what religious order hasn't been seduced and then bastardized by the power of a Crown head of state taking on their religion as "The" religion and propelling them into both popularity and power, which will eventually lead to corruption, happens in pretty much all religions when they attain the highest levels of power, particularly within a monarchy situation (can you say Spanish Inquisition*). I can see how she could indeed use this against Margaery with the whole "she was not a virgin" storyline, along with the story that Marge actually did the deed with Joffrey before they were married. Don't ask me how she could prove such things, but we all know Cersei is nothing if not resourceful, right? Definitely, Marge better get knocked up with a boy and damn soon, otherwise I think "The" Queen is soon to be toast. Much like LF, Cersei is the female equivalent to his male cockroach in that these two fuckers will outlive everyone in A Show no doubt, because they are always thinking ahead of the Game.

 

* "...noooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Our chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and fear. Fear and surprise. Our two weapons are fear and surprise. And ruthless inefficiency. Our three weapons are fear and surprise and ruthless inefficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope. Our four, no! Amongst our weapons...amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, ah, I'll come in again..."

Edited April 30, 2015 by gingerella

[Pallas]

Also, it would be sort of a hoot if Cersei was planning on getting rid of Margaery through some claim of "The terrible, incestuous nature of their union brings a curse upon the kingdom".

 

Hiliarious, shimpy!   

 

Cersei was indeed incredibly portentous with Margaery, who Cersei had to know would take this offer of "Anything at all" very lightly indeed, at least as things stand now.  Would do what in fact she did: turn her back on the departing Cersei, and sweep her away on a chorus of dismissive giggles.  So, what can Cersei have in mind to make happen, that the Queen Winner would forego her pride and misgivings, and ask the Queen Former for help?  What could Cersei do, to make Margaery think she needs her?  

 

And really, what does Cersei need of a Margaery in need of her: if she somehow weakened Margaery's position, why not just annihilate her?  Unless, Cersei really does accept that Tommen is enthralled with Margaery, and wants neither to hurt nor alienate her son, the King.  Accepts that Tommen must marry someone, after all.  And that the throne still stands in need of the Tyrell purse.  So -- somehow fatally weaken Margaery but leave her as a propped-up Queen, in debt to Cersei...at least long enough to produce an heir?  

 

Cersei's other portentous line was to the High Sparrow, about how the realm rests on the two foundations of church and crown, and that weakness in one becomes weakness in both.  She seems to have a mind a regime change at the top of her church.  Just as she has more or less effected a regime change within the Maesters, kicking Pycelle to the curb and elevating Defrocked Maester "Doesn't Matter" (a great little aside on Qyborn's part, by the way).  The High Septon was disgraced, and Cersei did nothing about that except imprison him, and sail off to meet and inform the High Sparrow.  Who I think passed the test, once she too recognized him as Jonathan Pryce.  

 

Ah: it was an episode of tests, wasn't it.  Tests or at least, assessments.  Cersei and the Sparrow.  Jon and Stannis; Jon and the Watch.  Arya and the Faceless.  Sansa and the Boltons....

 

Thinking of shimpy's Henry/Katherine/Anne analogy: if Cersei names the Sparrow (or even herself) head of a new state church, what becomes of Tommen's marriage?  And, what does Cersei want with Littlefinger?  Is it possible that she and her new Master of Whispers have figured out the plot that killed Joffrey: the conspiracy of Littlefinger and Margaery's grandmother?

[90PercentGravity]

The more I think about it, the more it feels like Cersai's bit with Marg was more like the girl who was popular in her little junior high and then went to a big high school and was suddenly a pariah.

[DirewolfPup]

Cersei may be looking to the Sparrows for religious guidance. We know from the premiere that she's worried about the fate of her children. Could she turn to religious piousness to save her children from early deaths?

[gingerella]

The more I think about it, the more it feels like Cersai's bit with Marg was more like the girl who was popular in her little junior high and then went to a big high school and was suddenly a pariah.

90%, I would agree with this if we didn't know Cersei's background behavior. But knowing what a conniving, nasty bitch she is, and that she is a brother-fucker, I just have to think she's got something brewing in her noggin' and it aint gonna bode well for ol Marge. We've yet to see Cersei fall to the bottom of the power ladder, I just don't see it happening but hey, ya never know.

[stillshimpy]

Cersei may be looking to the Sparrows for religious guidance. We know from the premiere that she's worried about the fate of her children. Could she turn to religious piousness to save her children from early deaths?

 

This is the woman who is collecting "That's the wrong dwarf, oh well" heads, Dire, what do you realistically think the chances are that Cersei is trying to find faith?  I admit, it's clearly a world where there's a religion for almost every kind pursuit.  Whatever is going on at Jaqen's House of Body Washing and Identity Loss, it also appears to involve a god that asks for three lives in exchange for the loss of one.   So it isn't as if religions are limited to the "let's all treat each other well and kindly" ....but the Sparrows seem to be at least pretending that is what they do. 

 

Giving away shoes to others who need them, etc.  

 

 

 

The more I think about it, the more it feels like Cersai's bit with Marg was more like the girl who was popular in her little junior high and then went to a big high school and was suddenly a pariah.

 

I don't know, I think Margaery is acting as if she has won the game, rather than taking a crucial step in winning it.   There's still an heir to produce and frankly, if the witch is to be believed, Cersei's kids are double-doomed to gold shrouds.  

 

Oh shit, Littlefinger got some kind of "immediately" communique from Cersei.   So that's never good news for anyone's longevity if they are prone towards decency: Incoming Littlefinger.  

 

Then Cersei is in tight with the Maesterstein and his monster.  I wonder if she'll have her poisoned into infertility?   

 

Admittedly, Cersei's bark seems to be worse than her bite on a lot of things.  Maybe her "if you need anything" assurances were just about realizing how close she is to be returned to Casterly Rock if she doesn't make nice with Margaery in a hurry?  She tried to steer Tommen towards thinking Margaery might be pretty, but not very bright, so maybe she really wasn't even close to offering friendship there.  

 

Still, I think Margaery is overplaying her hand by a fair amount.  

 

Also, on rewatch, I was even more irritated with Tyrion's spoiled brat act.   Varys was officially traveling with a child in tow.  

Edited April 30, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy: Also, on rewatch, I was even more irritated with Tyrion's spoiled brat act.

It was like he was playing Seven Questions in the brothel...

 

Tyrion: Do I look like a man without money? Never trust looks, but obviously I am a dwarf, as you can see. And a traveler -- my clothes and my accent are not from here. I have to Hand it to you; you are quite perceptive. I shot mine, you know; my hand I mean my father I mean my hand I SHOT MY FATHER THE HAND. Ahem. Until quite recently, I was one of the richest men in the world. But who needs wealth when you can make a woman laugh? My hair is rather dirty at the moment, but when it is clean it is blonde, a shade they call Lannister Blonde in Westeros. Did I say Westeros? Hahaha, oh no, I'm not the dwarf son of one of the richest and most powerful families in the Seven Kingdoms. I would be in your debt if you forgot I ever mentioned that accursed land. I always pay my debts, I'm well known for it.

Edited April 30, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[ChocButterfly]

Still, I think Margaery is overplaying her hand by a fair amount.

Agree. She's waaaay too overconfident.

 

Then Cersei is in tight with the Maesterstein and his monster.  I wonder if she'll have her poisoned into infertility?

Hey, I like this!!! It'd be the easiest way to f*ck up MArge's relationship with Tommen. Plus, Queens who cannot produce a rightful heir often get accused of witchcraft and get beheaded.

[janjan]

Cersei has seen the writing on the wall and knows that the public currently loves Queen Margaery,and they fucking hate the Dowager Queen, so how to regain her power? Ingratiate herself with this powerful and ever-growing "religion"

I think you got it, Gingerella..When Cersei's sedan chair was going through the streets and the people were cheering Queen Margaery, she clearly got the message. Dunno if she has a long game in mind, but her current Step 1 is to get those crowds cheering for her by allying with the beloved Sparrow.

 

If Cersei regains her power, we're all in trouble so I've brought back little Jandragon for our protection.

[gingerella]

All hail Janjan and her expectorating dragon, pinky.

[Pallas]

Cersei is in tight with the Maesterstein and his monster.  I wonder if she'll have her poisoned into infertility?

 

Hmmm....and back to your Henry VIII, analogy, shimpy, Cersei could then trump up evidence to convict Margaery of treason on the grounds of adultery.  Or wait -- what about, on the grounds of heresy?  Perhaps that's why she is enlisting The People's Septon as an ally.  As an ally against The People's Queen?  We've seen that the Sparrows seem extremely ascetic; Cersei already thinks of Margaery as a decadent strumpet...

 

In any event, Cersei may be looking to bring down not only Margarey, but the entire Tyrell house.  And confiscate their wealth and lands, as penalty.  Then she would get finally get to hand-pick for Tommen the heir-maker of Cersei's choice.  If she wants to.  She might prefer to keep Tommen childless, and imagine she can then reign in perpetuity as his de facto partner.  That is, do what her father had in mind.  

[janjan]

Pallas: Hmmm....and back to your Henry VIII, analogy, shimpy, Cersei could then trump up evidence to convict Margaery of treason on the grounds of adultery....In any event, Cersei may be looking to bring down not only Margarey, but the entire Tyrell house.

And grounds of incest. Anne Boleyn was accused of incest with her brother.

 

Margie is in over her head in this battle, now that Olenna has gone back to High Garden and isn't there to coach her. Cersei will defeat Margie somehow or other, and then the real battle begins.-- with Olenna. I'm betting on Olenna.

[WhiteStumbler]

Couldn't Cersei also be plotting to use Loras' homosexuality against House Tyrell (and thus against Margaery)? But I don't see how the High Sparrow would help in that regard. He seems pretty open-minded -- he says that he has a "notion that we are all equal in the eyes of Seven", and I assume that would include gays.

[stillshimpy]

Right, but Loras's lover is one of the managers at the brothel.  The season opened with that rather odd scene of Margaery wandering in to Loras's bedroom because they were late for dinner and just sort of hanging out talking to them.  

 

That was when Margaery started seemingly plotting about sending Cersei off to High Garden, now that there was no one around to make Cersei marry him.   

 

And grounds of incest. Anne Boleyn was accused of incest with her brother.

 

Among many other things, including her "French" ways in bed proving that she was no maid.  Admittedly, about half of what makes me doubt that the story could ever be going in that direction is that Natalie Dormer (Margaery) played Anne Boleyn in a truly awful tv series called The Tudors (feature the most miscast Henry imaginable) so it would seem a bit on-the-nose to cast her again for a Westeros Redo of the whole thing.  

 

Still, I have to imagine Cersei is up to something to reassert some power, influence, or at the very least to stop herself being sent away from Tommen.  The only child she still has any access too, after all. 

[gingerella]

Couldn't Cersei also be plotting to use Loras' homosexuality against House Tyrell (and thus against Margaery)? But I don't see how the High Sparrow would help in that regard. He seems pretty open-minded -- he says that he has a "notion that we are all equal in the eyes of Seven", and I assume that would include gays.

Okay, this is confusing me now. So the High Sparrow and his Sparrowettes also believe in The Seven? I do remember the Septon was selecting from Whores R Us, one woman who was presented as The Maiden, and "The Maiden" is obviously one of The Seven. I cannot remember what the other woman was presented as but was she also named after one of The Seven?  Anyway, I digress, my question is, this seems to point to the Sparrows not being of a different religion per se, but a different interpretation of The Seven, yes?  If that is so, I am feeling that the Sparrows are basically a fanatical/orthodox off shoot of The Seven, responding to the debauched life styles and attitudes they have seen displayed by the ruling class/family.  So if Cersei joins them, even if it's just a façade to gain her power back, it indeed is looking more like she will lend credibility to discrediting Marge and Loras for their respective previous marriages and wanton/lustful perversions - at least from her fake new orthodox mantra.   What sayeth my spitball brethren?

 

If I were Marge I'd pop out an heir real quick!

[WhiteStumbler]

shimpy: That was when Margaery started seemingly plotting about sending Cersei off to High Garden...

I think that Cersei at High Garden was part of the plan when Tywin was going to force Cersei to marry Loras. Since Loras would be the heir to High Garden, they would live there.

Cersei: (to Tywin) Joffrey is dead. Myrcella's been sold like livestock. And now you want to ship me off to High Garden and steal my boy.

 

gingerella: I cannot remember what the other woman was presented as but was she also named after one of The Seven?

She was - The Maiden and the Stranger (it looks like her hair is backwards, braided over her face) are the two the High Septon wanted to "worship" (and Olyvar reminded him that it would cost more).

 

I think you are exactly right -- the High Sparrow says 'Seven blessings' and speaks about 'the gods', so he and, I assume, the Sparrows worship The Seven, but they have zero tolerance for hypocrisy (a boil) and are in favor of equality in the eyes of the gods.

[Pallas]

And grounds of incest. Anne Boleyn was accused of incest with her brother.

 

And her brother died for it, as well.  Brilliant, janjan.  And then shimpy following about the scene with Loras and Oliver, the brothel manager.  I think Cersei could be headed in precisely that direction: accusing both Tyrell siblings of "perversions," perhaps with each other.

 

I know I know.  Summon the Irony Police!  But wait -- doesn't Cersei's brother Jaime command the Irony Police?  

 

Also, shimpy, your very good point about Natalie Dormer's former role.  I just don't know.  The pieces seem to stick together so well, if the producers were to ignore that...

 

Gingerella: yes, the Sparrows appear to be an ascetic (not necessarily fanatic, or even puritanical) sect of The Seven.  Each of the whores the High Septon chose among represented one of the Seven: that was the blasphemy for which he was shamed.  

 

Ah, remember how Loras accused himself of having led Cersei into temptation?  Then the High Sparrow spoke, half-jokingly, of Cersei's perhaps coming to tempt him.  So maybe the Sparrows are indeed especially not keen on sex.  And there was Margaery, letting Cersei know that she had Tommen performing prodigious feats of fuckery. 

 

So what does Cersei want "immediately" with Littlefinger: owner of the brothel where Loras's lover is manager?  Loras, Renly's all-but-acknowledged lover and champion?  Joffrey was too dumb and too infatuated with deft Margaery to press that point, when he raised it.  Cersei, not so much.

[stillshimpy]

I think that Cersei at High Garden

 

I'm sorry, I mean Casterly Rock.  Margaery almost immediately -- and far too transparently, I think -- immediately began  to campaign to have Cersei shipped off to Casterly Rock.  It was in that opening scene with Loras that the plan seemed to hatch, when Margaery said, "Perhaps" in response to Loras saying no one could make Cersei marry him now, so she'd just hang around and be her mother-in-law in residence.  Marg answers, "Perhaps" and a plan is born.  

 

Of course, the problem here is that she pretty much immediately tries to launch said plan.  Wait until you are knocked up, Marg.  

 

Whereas I can understand Margaery crowing a bit about winning this round, it seems like she's usually far more careful than to openly invite someone's animosity.  Jabs about being a grandmother?  Should be called Dowager? I mean Margaery was laying it on thick and it was not the brightest move.   

 

In fact, it felt a little out-of-character for Margaery . who has always been so adept at handling people and situations.  It was weird for her to passive-aggressively flip Cersei the bird in front of witnesses and everything.  Also, all that bragging about records and "what is the record?"  and other things that really point to experience.  

 

This is juxtaposed with Littlefinger talking about how Bolton can have Sansa examined to prove her virginal state, if he likes (you are gross, Littlefinger).  

 

So anyway, Margaery abandoning all caution and openly taunting Cersei just seemed freaking dumb, but it also ended up looking worse because Tommen -- the night after the wedded bliss night -- starts basically stating "Hey, how would you like it if I sent you far, far away to your childhood home?  Where none of your relatives other than your Uncle -- who has openly taken to treating you like shit too -- live?  You won't even be in charge there!  Care for a spot of obsolescent banishment?"  

 

Way to play it for the back rows there, Marg and Tommen.  

 

I really doubt the story is just going to openly copy from history, but Cersei pretty much has to be up to something.  Margaery and Tommen both went out of their ways to make sure her spidey senses are in "Shit! Act now!  Do not delay!" mode.  

Edited May 2, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

In Cersei and Tommen's little tete-a-tete-upon-the-parapets, I thought Tommen did a fairly credible job of sparring with her.  More Margaery than Margaery, in fact.  Margaery who, as shimpy has pointed out, should be assessed a penalty on her next kick-off for excessive celebration.  Tommen didn't rise to Cersei's bait about his bride, and sounded sincerely deferential about whether his mother might be happier at Casterly Rock.  Just not sincere enough to fool paranoid Cersei, on the heels of her humiliation by Margaery.  And who would have hated the idea and his fledgling confidence in any event, blaming Margaery for both.  With good reason.    

 

I'd assumed that the earlier scene between Margaery, Loras and Oliver took place in Loras's chambers.  But what if it was set at the brothel, where Margaery had thought to go looking for her brother, to fetch him to dinner?  That might better explain why we saw Loras ask Oliver his name, might also be a bit more discreet than Oliver's visiting Loras, and could set up more of a trumped-up case against Margaery.

 

I haven't gone back and looked to see if I can recognize the brothel master suite (where Tywin found Oberyn, when he came to ask Obeyrn to serve on Tyrion's jury).  Without giving too much away, I can say that to me, one medieval bedchamber looks pretty much like another.

[Pallas]

In Qyburn's lab -- what if the shrouded, chained figure was not Mountainstein but Sorcerer-Now-Out-of-a-Box?