S03.E13: March 8, 1983

[SusanSunflower]

yes, Phillips isn't allowed much input (by Elizabeth) but Elizabeth is obviously blowing Paige's recruitment (as we seen with her call to Pastor Tim) but also by the exchange in which Paige asks Elizabeth how her mother could have turned her (Elizabeth) over to the KGB even if if meant never seeing her again ... and Elizabeth completely avoided the question, reassuring Paige that she (Paige) would never be force to make such a choice .... as if E ever had a choice .... as if Paige had a lot more "agency" in her situation (which she doesn't have unless she's willing to jeopardize her parents) (which she then does by calling Pastor Tim ... oh gosh). 

P&E both let Paige walk out on them ... The time E and Paige spent away (from Henry and Phillip) should have been a matter of tough-love this is how it is and will be indoctrination ... 

When Elizabeth told Phillip that Paige had "done fine" and would "do fine" -- was she lying to him or to herself ... Paige had just been in tears about the prospect of a lifetime of lying to Henry and everyone she know ... 

I'm liking Phillip and Sandra ... and Martha ... he sees them as real people rather belying E's glib statement to Paige that lying is part of life and "everyone does it all the time." 

As I said before, I don't see Elizabeth as a "true believer" so much as a stoic who was raised to believe in not questioning "the mission" and/or her superiors.   (We've never seen Elizabeth address issues of Paige's faith with Paige).  We didn't really get an answer as to what Kate knew (and when) but that directorate S underwent a "sea change" ... but seemingly neither Phillip or Elizabeth received an apology or closure ...  I'm past saturation with P&E as hitmen/assassins and cannot be surprised that Phillip at least is feeling raw over all this self-generating carnage ...  The show is namechecking historical events but leaving them too under developed to provide meaningful context (pro or con USSR/USA) 

Edited May 28, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

On ‎24‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 11:32 PM, John S said:

Paige did pray for her grandmother. That was NOT a me, me ,me, moment.

I think it was just "me me me". Paige distanced from her mother who would have needed comfort. Of course I understand that it was too to ask from a girl of 15 years, and Paige has just experienced very hard, and indeed unsual, things.

But generally, I confess one of the things I don't like about some (not all) religious persons is that they start to speak about their faith instead of communicating with the other, or say "I pray for you" instead of helping the other.      

On ‎25‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 0:34 AM, RedheadZombie said:

I've never gotten the impression that Paige's problem is that her parents are Russians, it's that they're Russian spies.  

 

On ‎24‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 10:40 PM, John S said:

Paige isn't thinking that. When on the phone, the FIRST thing that she said is that her parents are liars. THAT was the gist of her message. The fact that her parents aren't Americans was an "Oh By The Way". She just can't get over the fact that about 95% of everything that her parents have told her has been a lie.

I agree with John: to Paige, the problem is personal - lying. 

3 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

P&E both let Paige walk out on them ... The time E and Paige spent away (from Henry and Phillip) should have been a matter of tough-love this is how it is and will be indoctrination ... 

- - -

As I said before, I don't see Elizabeth as a "true believer" so much as a stoic who was raised to believe in not questioning "the mission" and/or her superiors.   (We've never seen Elizabeth address issues of Paige's faith with Paige).  

All (or almost) teenagers walk away out on their parents. It's not dependent on time the family have spent together, Parents who try to prevent them will fail - or raise copies of themselves.

Elizabeth has many time spoken about the ideals she evidently sincerely believes in: f.e. peace and equality. 

I don't think it would be a good idea for an atheist parent to speak about faith with her child. To Elizabeth, Paige's believes in fairy tales. I think she actually behaved in the best way by not saying that aloud to Paige and answering to her only that praying was not for her.

There are also atheists who look not so much on the beliefs of religious people but how those beliefs make them act. But Elizabeth is also a Communist and to her religion is the opium of the people. Actually, there is empathy in Marx's sayig:  "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

[SusanSunflower]

The problem is that it (Elizabeth's silence) is another lie ... like someone pretending to like her daughter's boyfriend when palpably she doesn't.  Paige asking Elizabeth how her mother (Paige's grandmother) could have sent her away was looking for assurance that Elizabeth would not send/order Paige into the wilderness as her mother had done to her, when of course she wil/is doing just that .... 

Elizabeth seems to assume that Paige "loves" her grandmother when ... why? ... because it is inconceivable to Elizabeth that Paige does not appreciate her mother and grandmother's "noble sacrifice" to duty and patriotism. 

Much as Elizabeth sees Martha as a useful idiot, she sees Paige as someone who will inevitably "see the light" and be guided by principles, the betterment of human kind (when Paige's altruism is more immature and self-interested).  Paige is an adolescent looking for something solid and "true" -- authentic -- which is why she was drawn to Pastor Tim in the first place. Instead she's found herself living a lie wrt her brother and "everyone else" for the foreseeable future.  Looks like impending disaster to me with no happy resolution.  What's next? Sending Paige to some Soviet re-education camp??

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think it was just "me me me". Paige distanced from her mother who would have needed comfort. Of course I understand that it was too to ask from a girl of 15 years, and Paige has just experienced very hard, and indeed unsual, things.

Yes, even the way the scene is shot--Paige closes her eyes and drops her head. She's talking to God, not her mother. Her mother's just sitting there with her. As opposed to a later scene

Spoiler

Later there's a praying scene where the prayer is used as a cover to actually communicate with the other person and it plays very differently because of that. Paige is in part making a statement there about who she is in contrast to her mother.

 

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Much as Elizabeth sees Martha as a useful idiot, she sees Paige as someone who will inevitably "see the light" and be guided by principles, the betterment of human kind (when Paige's altruism is more immature and self-interested).  Paige is an adolescent looking for something solid and "true" -- authentic -- which is why she was drawn to Pastor Tim in the first place. Instead she's found herself living a lie wrt her brother and "everyone else" for the foreseeable future.  Looks like impending disaster to me with no happy resolution.  What's next? Sending Paige to some Soviet re-education camp??

But that's probably pretty common in all parents. When kids are young, there's things they don't get yet. Elizabeth of course hopes that Paige will grow to understand the sacrifice Elizabeth and her mother made--it's very true to Elizabeth. Complete honestly isn't going to happen whether her parents are spies or not. Her view of Pastor Tim is immature. I think the challenge here isn't Paige learning to parrot her mother's values but understand the shades of grey in the world. A reeducation camp wouldn't be helpful at all.

3 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Elizabeth seems to assume that Paige "loves" her grandmother when ... why? ... because it is inconceivable to Elizabeth that Paige does not appreciate her mother and grandmother's "noble sacrifice" to duty and patriotism. 

I don't see where Elizabeth seems to assume this. She brought Paige to meet her grandmother because Paige wanted family and Elizabeth thought it would good if they met. I don't think she has any thought of Paige loving this woman she just met. She just hopes that she appreciates the family she has and that loves her even if she doesn't love them back.

[RedheadZombie]

On May 13, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Roseanna said:

How could a woman who has had a hard life that nobody in the West can even imagine behave otherwise?

Because many, many women do.  There are millions of women in war torn countries who do not hand over their children to improve their own lives.  And there are millions more who would show an ounce of regret on their death beds for what their decisions wrought on their children.  Saying her mother was incapable of doing otherwise is dismissing the Soviet women of that time who did not erase their own shame by handing their children over to be raped and turned into killing machines for the cause. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

Because many, many women do.  There are millions of women in war torn countries who do not hand over their children to improve their own lives.  And there are millions more who would show an ounce of regret on their death beds for what their decisions wrought on their children.  Saying her mother was incapable of doing otherwise is dismissing the Soviet women of that time who did not erase their own shame by handing their children over to be raped and turned into killing machines for the cause. 

But nobody handed anybody over to improve their own life. They believed it was right. And there are many many women who direct their daughters into lives where they're going to treated as chattel because they believe it's correct, either for cultural reasons or religious reasons or whatever. Also Elizabeth's job is a great honor in the USSR. There's no reason her mother would only think of it as her being treated badly.

Edited May 28, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Because many, many women do.  There are millions of women in war torn countries who do not hand over their children to improve their own lives.  And there are millions more who would show an ounce of regret on their death beds for what their decisions wrought on their children.  Saying her mother was incapable of doing otherwise is dismissing the Soviet women of that time who did not erase their own shame by handing their children over to be raped and turned into killing machines for the cause. 

Elizabeth's mother did not hand her daughter to be raped or to become a killer. She had no idea what the job included, on the contrary she probably had a very naiive picture about it. She knew only that it concerned to serve the motherland and to her it was the greatest honor. Probably she also believed that giving up her daughter would make a world a better place for all.

Spies were presented great heroes in the Soviet Union. I have seen the Soviet spy serie The Seventeen Moments of the Spring. Its hero had an undercover role of SS officer during WW2 and was presented as an intelligent and likeable person. Recently I read about this serie an article where it was said: have you noticed how many decorations he had and thought what he must have done in order to do earn it in SS (which in turn was necessary in order to make Himmler to trust him)? 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

The problem is that it (Elizabeth's silence) is another lie ... like someone pretending to like her daughter's boyfriend when palpably she doesn't.  Paige asking Elizabeth how her mother (Paige's grandmother) could have sent her away was looking for assurance that Elizabeth would not send/order Paige into the wilderness as her mother had done to her, when of course she wil/is doing just that .... 

It's easy to criticize parents from outside - who would always find right words? And if someone did and never left her children dissatisfied, why would children ever want to leave home? It's the same with love relationships: only a con men like Clark and Jim can use perfect words - but they don't mean what they say.

However, I see that scene otherwise: it's again Paige's "me me me", even in the moment her mother suffers after seeing her mother the last time.

I can't even understand why Paige would get the idea that her mother would "send/order Paige to the wilderness" as she don't know anything about KGB's recruitment plans like we do. My father fought in WW2 and my mother served some time too, but when I was a teen, it was definitely past and I never imagined there would be a new war.

Considering Paige's actions so far, I wouldn't be surprised if she got an idea to become a nun or whatver in order simply to annoy her mother and she would never listen to her protests, not even ask for her permission like Elizabeth did.    

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Later there's a praying scene where the prayer is used as a cover to actually communicate with the other person and it plays very differently because of that. Paige is in part making a statement there about who she is in contrast to her mother.

But that's probably pretty common in all parents. When kids are young, there's things they don't get yet. Elizabeth of course hopes that Paige will grow to understand the sacrifice Elizabeth and her mother made--it's very true to Elizabeth. 

Yes, I remember. In 60ies some of our youth became pacifists and asked their fathers: "Why did you go to the war?" They simply had no idea about the situation like that.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

However, I see that scene otherwise: it's again Paige's "me me me", even in the moment her mother suffers after seeing her mother the last time.

I can't even understand why Paige would get the idea that her mother would "send/order Paige to the wilderness" as she don't know anything about KGB's recruitment plans like we do. My father fought in WW2 and my mother served some time too, but when I was a teen, it was definitely past and I never imagined there would be a new war.

Yeah, I thought Paige was definitely being a teenager there, only able to process the story by applying it to herself. That's where she was at that moment. I doubt she even was thinking about why Elizabeth went away. She just understood that her mother hadn't seen her own mother since she was a teenager, and her first thought was that this seemed like a bad thing to experience...so would Elizabeth do it to her? (After all, she was feeling betrayed by her parents lying to her already.) It was just a hypothetical situation. But Elizabeth, being someone who believes that this kind of sacrifice was important and necessary, couldn't just say she would never do it. But she does say it's not something that will ever happen to her. I think Elizabeth is trying to process her experience both as a mother and a daughter. She believes her own sacrifice was okay. But she does not want to hurt her own daughter. She isn't at the point where she can just say "No, that's terrible. No good mother would do it."

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, Elizabeth saw her mother as brave and self-sacrificing ... and Paige saw Elizabeth's mother's actions as barbaric and saw Elizabeth speaking almost reverentially about Grandmother's (as she saw if, barbaric) sacrifice ...  she was afraid that Elizabeth might sacrifice her ... which -- arguably is what is likely happening. 

Yes, it's an enormous generation gap ... my older brother was a war baby and I was born in 1952 and largely raised by my brother to be a "soldier" and to admire those qualities -- noble, self-sacrificing, uncomplaining, etc. etc.   Paige is has largely suffered no want or hardship and really doesn't see the nobility in that, even as she wants to do good and might voluntarily join a symbolic fasting protest or sit-in. 

One of the biggest generation gaps around Vietnam was that WWII veteran fathers (and mothers) outraged at their children (mostly sons) questioning being involuntarily drafted to fight in Vietnam, an immoral postcolonial/neocololonial war ...  Which was a bit of a whitewash by the "Greatest Generation" (WWII vets) who were not all terribly eager serve and many of whom had miserable service experiences (See Ken Burns' documentary series on WWII, there were a lot of supply chain and communications difficulties) 

(So many kids my age reported that their fathers would never talk about the war I almost wonder if departing soldiers were encouraged to "put the war behind them" and never mention it ... some vets spent a lot of time -- years -- at their local VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars) clubs and bars.  My father was a conscientious objector... which always elicited an awkward silence in class when everyone was supposed to proudly name their father's WWII service in advance of Memorial Day, back in the later 1950's.  Whenever mention is made of reinstating the draft -- in order to make Congress step up and represent the taxpayers who are paying for these wars -- I find many many young people consider it (mandatory service) unthinkable ... The military appears to be there for poorer folks and the children of military (connected) families ... not for them or their kids....  Part of the rationale of our high-tech drone/satellite warfare is that it doesn't need infantry.  It's been three (or four) generations since the end of the draft -- 18 year old soldiers in 1970  are now, like me, 64 with great grandchildren in high school. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I thought Paige was definitely being a teenager there, only able to process the story by applying it to herself. That's where she was at that moment. I doubt she even was thinking about why Elizabeth went away. She just understood that her mother hadn't seen her own mother since she was a teenager, and her first thought was that this seemed like a bad thing to experience...so would Elizabeth do it to her? (After all, she was feeling betrayed by her parents lying to her already.) It was just a hypothetical situation. But Elizabeth, being someone who believes that this kind of sacrifice was important and necessary, couldn't just say she would never do it. But she does say it's not something that will ever happen to her. I think Elizabeth is trying to process her experience both as a mother and a daughter. She believes her own sacrifice was okay. But she does not want to hurt her own daughter. She isn't at the point where she can just say "No, that's terrible. No good mother would do it."

Thank you for helping me understand that it's the experience of being lied that makes Page behave like she does.

Only, what "good mothers" do is dependent on the period and the situation they live in, what they know and what their values are.    

7 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Yes, Elizabeth saw her mother as brave and self-sacrificing ... and Paige saw Elizabeth's mother's actions as barbaric and saw Elizabeth speaking almost reverentially about Grandmother's (as she saw if, barbaric) sacrifice ...  she was afraid that Elizabeth might sacrifice her ... which -- arguably is what is likely happening. 

One can never for sure know beforehand how a person will act, especially in the situations where one must make decisions swiftly. Even "a true believer" like Elizabeth can act in a surprising way in the situation that she (or we) can't imagine.  

In any case, Paige lives in the USA and she has already shown that she can and will choose her own way and oppose her parents and do it quite cunningly. So there is no real danger of Elizabeth "sacrificing her daughter" as she can't make the decision for her, still less force her to anything, and even her ability to indoctrinate her is doubtful. On the hand, on can never know beforehand how Paige would react if f.ex. her parents were in danger.   

[Roseanna]

I would like to remind that also Pastor Tim has taught Paige the goodness of sacrifice.

When Paige said that "you a Pasicist", Pastor Tim explained that a Pacifist doesn't want to kill but are willing to die. Of course a Pacifist has no danger in Western counties but in any case Pastor Tim described Jesus as an example to be followed.

What he didn't say was that Virgin Mary had to accept to loose her son who wanted to sacrifice himself for others.

[SusanSunflower]

I think Paige already knows too much for the Centre to ever "let go" of  trying to manage her (even if P&E were safely retired in the USSR).  Ymmv, but Paige resides at ground zero, the starting point of all of P&E operations and meetings with their contacts/operatives.  The danger of Paige letting Henry in on their parent's other life is also considerable.  This is speaking only from Season 3 Episode 13 and she may stabilize and reconcile her involvement in ways I'm not aware of.  I'm willing to suspend belief that Pastor Tim will ignore the peril of doing nothing with what he knows, even though he has no compelling reason to believe that P&E are working for "peace and the good of all mankind" rather than, say, perpetuation and expansion of the arms race or counterintelligence to thwart American spying/intelligence efforts or to secure national security, etc.   Aldrich Aimes began his KGB career in 1985 so he hasn't been "turned" (for $$$) yet.  

Quote

from wiki:  [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames]

James Hall III – An Army warrant officer and intelligence analyst in Germany who sold eavesdropping and code secrets to East Germany and the Soviet Union from 1983 to 1988.

Robert Hanssen – Arrested [2001] for spying for the Soviet Union and Russia for more than 15 of his 27 years with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Earl Edwin Pitts – An FBI agent charged with providing Top Secret documents to the Soviet Union and then Russia from 1987 until 1992.

Harold James Nicholson – A senior-ranking Central Intelligence Agency officer arrested while attempting to take Top Secret documents out of the country. He began spying for Russia in 1994.

George Trofimoff – A then-retired Army Reserve colonel, charged in June 2000 of spying for the KGB and the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service (or SVR) for over 25 years.

William Kampiles – A CIA clerk who sold a KH-11 spy satellite manual to the Soviet Union.

David Henry Barnett – A CIA officer convicted of spying for the Soviet Union in 1980. He volunteered to spy in 1976.

John Anthony Walker – A Navy Warrant Officer convicted of providing massive amounts of classified information to the USSR during his Naval career. Several members of his family were involved in his spying activities as well.

[Roseanna]

3 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I think Paige already knows too much for the Centre to ever "let go" of  trying to manage her (even if P&E were safely retired in the USSR).  

On the basis of what I have noticed, Paige knows practically nothing about the Centre, except her parents are often away and her mother and grandmother didn't meet for years. 

Also Paige's information about the domestic and foreign affairs is almost nonexistent. She supposed that Poland was a part of Russia and didn't know anything about Afro-Americans until recently.

At the same age I was very keen to follow politics and could have said the dates and states of the US primary elections by heart. 

[Roseanna]

19 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I'm willing to suspend belief that Pastor Tim will ignore the peril of doing nothing with what he knows, even though he has no compelling reason to believe that P&E are working for "peace and the good of all mankind" rather than, say, perpetuation and expansion of the arms race or counterintelligence to thwart American spying/intelligence efforts or to secure national security, etc.  

It's not that simple as that. I think the episode of Reagan's shooting was one of the best because it showed that sometimes it's important that the opponent gets valid information so that it don't start a war believing that it must do it first. The episodes of Afghanistan, South Africa and Venezuela have showed how relative "good" and "evil" can be.

However, the crux of the matter is that The Americans isn't about a good hero (Stan) fighting against baddies (P&E). All protagonists act in a grey moral zone.

For some reason, I am not concerned about P&E's murders, even when the offers are innocent people. Instead, Stan's murdering Vlad for revenge felt most disgusting thing until Nina informed about her cellmate. I don't particularly care about Martha but I care for Kimmie, perhaps because P&E are reluctant to go across that limit. 

David Mamet's essay Three Uses of the Knife. On the Nature and Purpose of Drama deals about plays, not drama series. Yet, I think that what he says about the dilemma of the second act is important also here: the hero doubts himself and hopes that he would never have begun the journey.  Then the hero arrives on the battleground of the final goal where the the real nature of the struggle is revealed.

Therefore, it would a great letdown if P&E were simply caught or turned. It was what happens inside them that is most important in this show.