Well, It Says Right Here...: All That's Wrong With Grimm

[Lii]

Just now, merylinkid said:

I feel like I should be taking a hit off a bong, hat or otherwise after reading that.

True story. Because Grimm.

[icewolf]

I just realized how much Grimm has taken from Bewitched!

Witch mom trying not be her true nature, while raising a little girl with powers, along with baby brother. Adalind even resembles Samantha with their blonde hair.

Diana is Tabitha gone bad?

Intentional or are the Grimm writers just lazy?

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, Lii said:

Maybe it's a different hat bong? Because the only other thing I can think of is Juliette straight up stealing it from the Spice Shop when she threw her murder tantrum when they tried to get her to drink the suppression potion. I don't think she ever went there between that time and the time JuliEve abruptly went there for her abrupt interrogation of Rosalee a few episodes back.

It could be, although Elizabeth stressed how rare it was.  Of course, that wouldn't be the first detail the show made a big deal out of and then promptly forgot.

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Between #3 and #4, so did Renard just take all the stuff home with him from the Spice Shop when they were done with it? Seems random.

 

No, he left it in the storage unit until his mother, Monroe, and Rosalee got it...

Quote

Do you guys ever wish you didn't remember all this crap?

You know, there are many times that I wish I had never tuned into Grimm.  I was really hooked on the show and now I just feel betrayed, which I totally agree is ridiculous.  I mean, it's a freakin' TV show...but whatever....we all have our once guilty pleasures that we just can't drop.... (well, I did drop it....I just follow along here.  And I might watch the finale.  Maybe. We'll see....)

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, icewolf said:

I just realized how much Grimm has taken from Bewitched!

Witch mom trying not be her true nature, while raising a little girl with powers, along with baby brother. Adalind even resembles Samantha with their blonde hair.

Diana is Tabitha gone bad?

Intentional or are the Grimm writers just lazy?

The more I watch this show (er, the more you all watch this show and then post what happens!), the more UNoriginal I realize it is.  As I said in the Spice Shop, I've been watching The Almighty Johnsons, which aired in NZ during seasons 1-3 of Grimm, so I'm not trying to insinuate that the Grimm creative team stole from them.  But there are an uncomfortable number of similarities between the two shows.  The Almighty Johnsons, however, is the kind of show that sort of pokes fun at tropes, so you see things in that show that you'd see in any number of other fantasy-ish shows, but it is with sort of a wink and an elbow nudge--like we're all in on a joke.

Grimm, on the other hand, was supposed to be a show where they took tropes--or fairy tales, folk tales, etc--and twisted them into something else.  At least that's what I thought.  And they did have some success with that in the early seasons, but then they all got...sloppy.  There hasn't been anything original for at least 2 seasons and the writing, oof, the writing is just embarrassing.  I mean, we have a Plot Holes thread (thanks @Darklazr) where it took us less than a week to come up with more than 100 plot holes!  LESS THAN A WEEK!  That shouldn't happen on a major network show.  Well, it shouldn't happen on any show.  Why is it happening here, because the creative team is SLOPPY! They never tie up loose ends, they drop plots, they ignore or forget things they've said in the past...and they expect the viewing audience to be as unconcerned as they are, or they just think we are idiots and won't notice.

Again, I don't get why NBC puts up with this.  They've kept Grimm for 5.5 seasons, and they gave Kouf and Greenwalt a 2 year development deal...why?  I mean, Grimm has, until recently, been a solid performer for Friday nights...I get that.  And I can see why they would want to keep it.  But, if they wanted to keep the show, why are they keeping a creative team that has proven, time and again, how inept they are?  They could probably hire cheaper show runners who would do a better job than Kouf/Greenwalt/Carpenter.  I mean, they couldn't do any worse...  But NBC just keeps them there.

A few years ago, there was a show on NBC that I watched.  It had some very big names in its cast and a very big (if not biggest) name as an executive producer.  And, honestly, the show was not only a mess from the first episode, but doomed before it began.  The premise was finite and there was a casting issue that really messed things up (there were 2 female leads--one was too strong of an actress and outshone pretty much everyone and the other was a terrible actress who, well, would make some of the cast of Grimm look like "artistes") and, halfway through the run, they decided to completely change course, which made even less sense.  But, still, with all that, one of the few things you could not accuse that show of being was sloppy.  There were no major plot holes, nothing was left dangling, and even if "reality" was compromised to make things work, it was done in a way that the casual viewer would never catch on.  If they could deal with that show without being sloppy, there is no excuse for what Grimm has become.

Edited May 17, 2016 by OtterMommy

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

The more I watch this show (er, the more you all watch this show and then post what happens!), the more UNoriginal I realize it is.  As I said in the Spice Shop, I've been watching The Almighty Johnsons, which aired in NZ during seasons 1-3 of Grimm, so I'm not trying to insinuate that the Grimm creative team stole from them.  But there are an uncomfortable number of similarities between the two shows.  The Almighty Johnsons, however, is the kind of show that sort of pokes fun at tropes, so you see things in that show that you'd see in any number of other fantasy-ish shows, but it is with sort of a wink and an elbow nudge--like we're all in on a joke.

Grimm, on the other hand, was supposed to be a show where they took tropes--or fairy tales, folk tales, etc--and twisted them into something else.  At least that's what I thought.  And they did have some success with that in the early seasons, but then they all got...sloppy.  There hasn't been anything original for at least 2 seasons and the writing, oof, the writing is just embarrassing.  I mean, we have a Plot Holes thread (thanks @Darklazr) where it took us less than a week to come up with more than 100 plot holes!  LESS THAN A WEEK!  That shouldn't happen on a major network show.  Well, it shouldn't happen on any show.  Why is it happening here, because the creative team is SLOPPY! They never tie up loose ends, they drop plots, they ignore or forget things they've said in the past...and they expect the viewing audience to be as unconcerned as they are, or they just think we are idiots and won't notice.

Again, I don't get why NBC puts up with this.  They've kept Grimm for 5.5 seasons, and they gave Kouf and Greenwalt a 2 year development deal...why?  I mean, Grimm has, until recently, been a solid performer for Friday nights...I get that.  And I can see why they would want to keep it.  But, if they wanted to keep the show, why are they keeping a creative team that has proven, time and again, how inept they are?  They could probably hire cheaper show runners who would do a better job than Kouf/Greenwalt/Carpenter.  I mean, they couldn't do any worse...  But NBC just keeps them there.

A few years ago, there was a show on NBC that I watched.  It had some very big names in its cast and a very big (if not biggest) name as an executive producer.  And, honestly, the show was not only a mess from the first episode, but doomed before it began.  The premise was finite and there was a casting issue that really messed things up (there were 2 female leads--one was too strong of an actress and outshone pretty much everyone and the other was a terrible actress who, well, would make some of the cast of Grimm look like "artistes") and, halfway through the run, they decided to completely change course, which made even less sense.  But, still, with all that, one of the few things you could not accuse that show of being was sloppy.  There were no major plot holes, nothing was left dangling, and even if "reality" was compromised to make things work, it was done in a way that the casual viewer would never catch on.  If they could deal with that show without being sloppy, there is no excuse for what Grimm has become.

Is this the Lost mentality where you write a bunch of crap and hope to figure it out later on?  I stopped watching Once Upon a Time because it was just too outlandish and stupid.   Grimm was so much fun during s1 and then came that stupid obsession/amnesia nonsense.  I want WoW, a little romance, lots of fabulous guests and a nod toward fairy tales.  Sigh.  We now have 3 hexenbiests, a creepy kid fixated on killing and having her parents (we still have no idea if Sean or Eric is Diana's biological father) banging, etc...

Edited May 17, 2016 by Darklazr

[Prevailing Wind]

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...and they expect the viewing audience to be as unconcerned as they are, or they just think we are idiots and won't notice.

No, we won't notice because we're too busy live-tweeting during the episode to pay close attention...or so TPTB want to believe.  I truly believe no network suit watches the show to realize what a freakin' train wreck this so-called creative team has come up with.

[Darklazr]

The person(s) assigned to Grimm continuity should have been fired after s1!

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, Darklazr said:

The person(s) assigned to Grimm continuity should have been fired after s1!

I wonder...are they just unaware of all their continuity issues...or do they just not care?

[Prevailing Wind]

Too busy live-tweeting to care.

[OtterMommy]

13 hours ago, Darklazr said:

Is this the Lost mentality where you write a bunch of crap and hope to figure it out later on?  I stopped watching Once Upon a Time because it was just too outlandish and stupid.   Grimm was so much fun during s1 and then came that stupid obsession/amnesia nonsense.  I want WoW, a little romance, lots of fabulous guests and a nod toward fairy tales.  Sigh.  We now have 3 hexenbiests, a creepy kid fixated on killing and having her parents (we still have no idea if Sean or Eric is Diana's biological father) banging, etc...

It's not Lost (I never watched  that show), but I'm sure that both Lost and Grimm share some of the same issues.  There is no excuse in either case.

[Lii]

Oh shit, wait, so maybe Diana is all messed up in the head because she watched Kelly die in front of her, and it traumatized her and shit, thereby making the whole thing Juliette's fault? Because, LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLL

[Darklazr]

8 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I wonder...are they just unaware of all their continuity issues...or do they just not care?

Both.  I watch GH and it a mess from the M to the S!

5 hours ago, Lii said:

Oh shit, wait, so maybe Diana is all messed up in the head because she watched Kelly die in front of her, and it traumatized her and shit, thereby making the whole thing Juliette's fault? Because, LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLL

No, Diana was on the floor playing with her bunny rabbit.  Let's not forget Diana was in the womb and stuck a pen in the eye of a jundager.

[Lii]

Oh crap, I forgot that Diana was this show's equivalent of Womb!Wyatt. Ugh. Maybe Future!Kelly will come poofing in and smack some sense into her?

[OtterMommy]

My husband and I were watching another show last night and the plot is taking a turn that the hubs doesn't like (I'm presently withholding judgment) and the new season just has a different feel from the previous ones.  Anyway, after the episode we were watching finished, my husband goes, "I hope this show doesn't pull a Grimm." I assured him that things weren't that bad for this show but them asked him about that term.  Apparently, "pulling a Grimm" is a term that he and his co-workers (all engineers...so, it was either "pulling a Grimm" or 'bazinga") use when a show that had been solidly established crashes and burns at a disturbing quick speed and level.  They've been throwing this term around for about a year now...so, um, more congrats to Grimm for entering the general, or at least nerdy/techie, lexicon?

[Darklazr]

7 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

My husband and I were watching another show last night and the plot is taking a turn that the hubs doesn't like (I'm presently withholding judgment) and the new season just has a different feel from the previous ones.  Anyway, after the episode we were watching finished, my husband goes, "I hope this show doesn't pull a Grimm." I assured him that things weren't that bad for this show but them asked him about that term.  Apparently, "pulling a Grimm" is a term that he and his co-workers (all engineers...so, it was either "pulling a Grimm" or 'bazinga") use when a show that had been solidly established crashes and burns at a disturbing quick speed and level.  They've been throwing this term around for about a year now...so, um, more congrats to Grimm for entering the general, or at least nerdy/techie, lexicon?

Jumping the shark, off the rails or full of poop.  Grimm was fantastic during s1 and it started going downhill (IMO) with the obsession/amnesia and babies crap.

I loved Buffy until they added the hereto unknown little sister and then I just watched the show out of habit.

How can you eff up a show where the main character discovers his ancestors turbulent history, fairy tales really do exist, trying to cope with your new reality and learning to keep it all under wraps while doing your job?  Sheesh.  Nick should be coming into his own by now as THE Grimm, but instead the show is fascinated with hexenbiests and sleazy sex.  

Edited May 19, 2016 by Darklazr

[OtterMommy]

20 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

How can you eff up a show where the main character discovers his ancestors turbulent history, fairy tales really do exist, trying to cope with your new reality and learning to keep it all under wraps while doing your job?  Sheesh.  Nick should be coming into his own by now as THE Grimm, but instead the show is fascinated with hexenbiests and sleazy sex.  

And, meanwhile, the main character has become both unlikable and irrelevant. That should NEVER happen in a show (okay, unlikable *can* work if the character is introduced that way, which Nick was not...) no matter what kind of show it is.

[tpel]

I think, right from the beginning, the writers never bothered to figure out what kind of person Nick is supposed to be. At first it didn't matter so much, because he could play the naive newbie role, introducing the audience to the strange world of the show. But once that phase started to wear off, we were left without much to go on. I'm trying to think of a character trait to ascribe to him, other than "passive" and am not coming up with much. Is he curious? No, not really. He didn't ask how wesen recognize him as a Grimm until the second half of the third season. Does he care passionately about others? At times, yes, but it is fleeting. Even setting aside his love life, he was desperate to find Trubel . . . until he wasn't. Is he a good person? Maybe, in comparison to other Grimms, but only in a negative way: he doesn't kill wesen indiscriminately. But a truly good person wouldn't propose to his girlfriend while withholding life-changing (perhaps life-threatening) information relevant to her decision. Is he a good cop? He seems OK at his job, though no better than Hank or Wu. I guess I could describe him as dutiful, and he can be funny at times. Shouldn't we have more than this in the fifth year of the show?

[Lii]

Self-insert male lead. He's so bland, anyone can imagine themselves the lead in his story. I imagine Juliette's original bland ass was meant as a self-insert at first too, before all the badassery. 

[OtterMommy]

10 hours ago, tpel said:

I think, right from the beginning, the writers never bothered to figure out what kind of person Nick is supposed to be. At first it didn't matter so much, because he could play the naive newbie role, introducing the audience to the strange world of the show. But once that phase started to wear off, we were left without much to go on. I'm trying to think of a character trait to ascribe to him, other than "passive" and am not coming up with much. Is he curious? No, not really. He didn't ask how wesen recognize him as a Grimm until the second half of the third season. Does he care passionately about others? At times, yes, but it is fleeting. Even setting aside his love life, he was desperate to find Trubel . . . until he wasn't. Is he a good person? Maybe, in comparison to other Grimms, but only in a negative way: he doesn't kill wesen indiscriminately. But a truly good person wouldn't propose to his girlfriend while withholding life-changing (perhaps life-threatening) information relevant to her decision. Is he a good cop? He seems OK at his job, though no better than Hank or Wu. I guess I could describe him as dutiful, and he can be funny at times. Shouldn't we have more than this in the fifth year of the show?

I do think you are on to something here (as well as @Lii's follow up post).  When putting the show together, KGC never bothered to figure out what kind of person Nick was. Perhaps they thought it would become apparent as the show went on.  If so, they are utter morons (not that we didn't already know that).  

I'm trying to think back to the shows I watch or watched and I can't think of any successful ones where the main character or characters were less defined at the start of this show than in Grimm.  And yes, they were able to hide behind the plot...for one season.  That's it. 

We're almost done with he 5th season and we still only have the sparsest outline of a main character. I know that not everyone will agree with me (and that's fine) but I can't blame DG here.  I think he's done the most that he can do with what is given to him.  For me, this is entirely the fault of the creative team.

And it's not just Nick.  Juliette was never defined...and then she became hexenbiest and she still wasn't defined...and then she was Eve and she still wasn't defined.  Adalind was also a very badly formed character.  Monroe was great at the start, but then the show basically sidelined him and now his role seems to be carrying boxes and "going undercover".  Renard was probably the most defined character starting out...and then that all hit the fan.

I'm going to be very interested to see what the ratings for the finale are.  Last week's episode had the lowest of the series...which makes me think that maybe we aren't alone in thinking this show has gone very, very wrong.

[ShadowFacts]

As Darklazr said, the show has become fascinated with sleazy sex.  It is becoming more pronounced, like frat boys were writing it.  Have the writers considered that maybe if we had got to see less sex instead of more, it might have more impact?  I would actually ask that of television writers in general.  Maybe I'm just old, but it gets to be eyerolling-ly too frequent for me.  Even with body switching and potions and little kids apparently directing it, I just don't think it's intriguing.

[icewolf]

DEATH to Nadalind and their demon spawn!

As The Grimm World Turns isn't the show that I signed up for!

[TVSpectator]

This show has changed and I haven't yet even seen the 5th Season finale (but I do want to see it before the 6th Season starts). That being said, I really don't like what they have made Adalind's and Renard's kid into and I hope we get less of her next season (and has it been confirmed that the 6th Season is the last season of this show?).

[SnarkyTart]

They could take the second "M" out of the title and make it "Grim".  That might earn them bonus points for truth in advertising.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

This show has changed and I haven't yet even seen the 5th Season finale (but I do want to see it before the 6th Season starts). That being said, I really don't like what they have made Adalind's and Renard's kid into and I hope we get less of her next season (and has it been confirmed that the 6th Season is the last season of this show?).

I don't think you're going to like Diana any more after you see the finale.  I don't think it has been confirmed 6 will be the last season, at least not that I've seen.

13 minutes ago, SnarkyTart said:

They could take the second "M" out of the title and make it "Grim".  That might earn them bonus points for truth in advertising.

That was some good snark right there, I'm giving you bonus points for truth in screen naming.

[Darklazr]

7 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

This show has changed and I haven't yet even seen the 5th Season finale (but I do want to see it before the 6th Season starts). That being said, I really don't like what they have made Adalind's and Renard's kid into and I hope we get less of her next season (and has it been confirmed that the 6th Season is the last season of this show?).

I hope the kid morphs into Frau Pech and she unleashes hell on Adalind.

Grimm has turned into baby and Hexenbiest drama and it really ticks me off!

[Snarkette]

Focus groups. Focus groups like soap operas and babies and hexenslapfights. Focus groups don't like smart. This is why we can't have nice things. soblimitlesssob

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, Darklazr said:

I hope the kid morphs into Frau Pech and she unleashes hell on Adalind.

Grimm has turned into baby and Hexenbiest drama and it really ticks me off!

 

Oh, morphing into Frau Pech is a great idea (hell, it beats the other "creative" decisions that were made on the show) and I would love to see Adalind dead and maybe she can also kill Juliette?

[OtterMommy]

9 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

This show has changed and I haven't yet even seen the 5th Season finale (but I do want to see it before the 6th Season starts). That being said, I really don't like what they have made Adalind's and Renard's kid into and I hope we get less of her next season (and has it been confirmed that the 6th Season is the last season of this show?).

No, it hasn't yet been confirmed and that makes me very nervous.  I'm not sure this is a spoiler, but just in case:

Spoiler

Everything that has come out sounds like they are trying to make a play to extend this season past 13 episodes.  Since NBC hasn't yet confirmed that it will ONLY be 13 episodes (they still have the "option to extend") I fear that this show is going to be canceled with NOTHING resolved.

As for Diana...ugh.  I'm so over her,  In fact, I was over her about 5 minutes after Adalind got her positive pregnancy test.  But whatever.

From what I've seen from the "real" fans (as they like to call themselves) over on FB and Twitter, they all had this fantasy that Nick, Adalind, Kelly, and Diana would live happily ever after.  Now, I unliked the Grimm page about halfway through the season, so I don't know what they were saying at the end of the season when Diana finally showed up...but I get the feeling that this was yet another misguided attempt by the show runners to "give the fans what they want."

I honestly don't know how they can walk the show back to what it was at this point.  I know the term "jumping the shark" is misused and there is some disagreement about what it really means.  However, to me, the moment a show jumps the shark is the moment when it takes a turn that it cannot come back from.  And, for me, that was Adalind being pregnant with Nick's baby (supposedly).  At that point, Juliette hadn't yet gone completely off the deep end, Renard was still just making phone calls, and Wu wasn't a werewolf.  But, once this baby came on the scene, the showrunners had tied their own hands behind their back.  

Of course, I fully expect that it will turn out that Kelly is actually Juliette's baby--it's contrived and we can see it coming a mile away (but I'm okay with it because I HATE with the fiery heat of a thousand suns the whole Nadalind thing) but it really just come off as a cheap attempt of them trying to get themselves out of the corner they've created.

[ShadowFacts]

6 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I honestly don't know how they can walk the show back to what it was at this point.  I know the term "jumping the shark" is misused and there is some disagreement about what it really means.  However, to me, the moment a show jumps the shark is the moment when it takes a turn that it cannot come back from.  And, for me, that was Adalind being pregnant with Nick's baby (supposedly).  At that point, Juliette hadn't yet gone completely off the deep end, Renard was still just making phone calls, and Wu wasn't a werewolf.  But, once this baby came on the scene, the showrunners had tied their own hands behind their back.

Totally agree.  Baby drama is the soapiest, stupidest, most unimaginative trick in the lazy writers book. 

[Darklazr]

16 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Oh, morphing into Frau Pech is a great idea (hell, it beats the other "creative" decisions that were made on the show) and I would love to see Adalind dead and maybe she can also kill Juliette?

It would be awesome!  Nick and Renard would be free of BOTH women.   Nick can raise Kelly and my sexy pants Renard can become CaptainMayor!

[Darklazr]

14 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

No, it hasn't yet been confirmed and that makes me very nervous.  I'm not sure this is a spoiler, but just in case:

  Reveal hidden contents

Everything that has come out sounds like they are trying to make a play to extend this season past 13 episodes.  Since NBC hasn't yet confirmed that it will ONLY be 13 episodes (they still have the "option to extend") I fear that this show is going to be canceled with NOTHING resolved.

As for Diana...ugh.  I'm so over her,  In fact, I was over her about 5 minutes after Adalind got her positive pregnancy test.  But whatever.

From what I've seen from the "real" fans (as they like to call themselves) over on FB and Twitter, they all had this fantasy that Nick, Adalind, Kelly, and Diana would live happily ever after.  Now, I unliked the Grimm page about halfway through the season, so I don't know what they were saying at the end of the season when Diana finally showed up...but I get the feeling that this was yet another misguided attempt by the show runners to "give the fans what they want."

I honestly don't know how they can walk the show back to what it was at this point.  I know the term "jumping the shark" is misused and there is some disagreement about what it really means.  However, to me, the moment a show jumps the shark is the moment when it takes a turn that it cannot come back from.  And, for me, that was Adalind being pregnant with Nick's baby (supposedly).  At that point, Juliette hadn't yet gone completely off the deep end, Renard was still just making phone calls, and Wu wasn't a werewolf.  But, once this baby came on the scene, the showrunners had tied their own hands behind their back.  

Of course, I fully expect that it will turn out that Kelly is actually Juliette's baby--it's contrived and we can see it coming a mile away (but I'm okay with it because I HATE with the fiery heat of a thousand suns the whole Nadalind thing) but it really just come off as a cheap attempt of them trying to get themselves out of the corner they've created.

At this point, I would take Diana's powers and the stick as being the catalyst to flip a switch which puts us back to s3.  Adalind never shows up at Renard's with baby Diana and she seeks out Henrietta's help in disappearing, because she senses that Kelly wants her baby and she knows Eric is really the father.  Henrietta is the one that convinces Adalind to tell Renard the truth and once he acknowledges the baby isn't his, he provides the money that allows all three to leave town.  End of baby drama!  No more sleazy rape stories.  I can go back to FF anything Juliette related.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Darklazr

[Snarkette]

Quote

Of course, I fully expect that it will turn out that Kelly is actually Juliette's baby--it's contrived and we can see it coming a mile away (but I'm okay with it because I HATE with the fiery heat of a thousand suns the whole Nadalind thing) but it really just come off as a cheap attempt of them trying to get themselves out of the corner they've created.

I would loathe for them to do this. People who use sperm banks, egg, embryo, or traditional adoption are no less the parents of their children. For the writers to do that ("rape baby doesn't belong to rapist mom who had total personality transplant but now loves the father of rape baby but must give up rape baby to exbiest genetic mother, despite nursing and caring for it for, what, six months or so") is just a grim (the missing m is deliberate) bit too far. Not that I expect logic from the writers.

Also, is Wu still a wereblutwhateverbad? Did they ever resolve that? By the end of the season, I was watching through my fingers and finding any excuse to do chores.

[ShadowFacts]

27 minutes ago, Snarkette said:

Also, is Wu still a wereblutwhateverbad? Did they ever resolve that? By the end of the season, I was watching through my fingers and finding any excuse to do chores.

As of the end of the season, he is still infected with lycanthropia.  He is trying to learn to live with it, by controlling his emotions I guess so as to not have the transformation happen whenever he gets angry/fired up/whatever.  I don't think it's clear if this only happens during full moons.  I think there was some mention that this virus works differently in humans than it does in blutbaden.

[OtterMommy]

27 minutes ago, Snarkette said:

I would loathe for them to do this. People who use sperm banks, egg, embryo, or traditional adoption are no less the parents of their children. For the writers to do that ("rape baby doesn't belong to rapist mom who had total personality transplant but now loves the father of rape baby but must give up rape baby to exbiest genetic mother, despite nursing and caring for it for, what, six months or so") is just a grim (the missing m is deliberate) bit too far. Not that I expect logic from the writers.

I agree with your sentiment here 100%...however, I think that sentiment makes it even more likely that the show will go down this road.  Because you know what Grimm really needs?  A messy custody battle!  

Again, not sure if this is a spoiler, because it is already sort of in play but:

Spoiler

We know that there is going to be a Nick/Juliette/Adalind love triangle and DG has said something along the lines of this triangle is extraordinarily complicated.  Because, again, we all want a love triangle--right?  And adding in a who's your mama element will do nothing but add--something--to that triangle.

I also think that the show needs to rebuild the animosity between Nick and Adalind because, without it, there is nothing interesting between the two of them.  An easy (that is, lazy) way to do that is that build up a "who gets Kelly" fight between the two of them.  My gut feeling is that there just isn't anything there to keep an emotional tie, at least from Nick's side (especially if DG is being given more sway this season.  Both DG and CC were, at best, less than lukewarm about the possibility of a Nick/Adalind relationship in the pre-season and early season 5 interviews last year) so they have to build something up and, again, it is very much in character for the showrunners to throw in the possibility that Juliette is genetically Kelly's mother, especially since they already laid the groundwork for that in season 4.

[Darklazr]

3 hours ago, Snarkette said:

I would loathe for them to do this. People who use sperm banks, egg, embryo, or traditional adoption are no less the parents of their children. For the writers to do that ("rape baby doesn't belong to rapist mom who had total personality transplant but now loves the father of rape baby but must give up rape baby to exbiest genetic mother, despite nursing and caring for it for, what, six months or so") is just a grim (the missing m is deliberate) bit too far. Not that I expect logic from the writers.

Also, is Wu still a wereblutwhateverbad? Did they ever resolve that? By the end of the season, I was watching through my fingers and finding any excuse to do chores.

Unless Adalind dies, I don't see them making not dead Juliette Eve Kelly's mother and I agree it would be cruel at best to remove the child.  The writer's chose to write in CC's pregnancy when they could have just hidden her behind large purses and other objects and there would be no need for round two of baby romper crap.

[TVSpectator]

21 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

No, it hasn't yet been confirmed and that makes me very nervous.  I'm not sure this is a spoiler, but just in case:

  Reveal hidden contents

Everything that has come out sounds like they are trying to make a play to extend this season past 13 episodes.  Since NBC hasn't yet confirmed that it will ONLY be 13 episodes (they still have the "option to extend") I fear that this show is going to be canceled with NOTHING resolved.

 

As for Diana...ugh.  I'm so over her,  In fact, I was over her about 5 minutes after Adalind got her positive pregnancy test.  But whatever.

From what I've seen from the "real" fans (as they like to call themselves) over on FB and Twitter, they all had this fantasy that Nick, Adalind, Kelly, and Diana would live happily ever after.  Now, I unliked the Grimm page about halfway through the season, so I don't know what they were saying at the end of the season when Diana finally showed up...but I get the feeling that this was yet another misguided attempt by the show runners to "give the fans what they want."

I honestly don't know how they can walk the show back to what it was at this point.  I know the term "jumping the shark" is misused and there is some disagreement about what it really means.  However, to me, the moment a show jumps the shark is the moment when it takes a turn that it cannot come back from.  And, for me, that was Adalind being pregnant with Nick's baby (supposedly).  At that point, Juliette hadn't yet gone completely off the deep end, Renard was still just making phone calls, and Wu wasn't a werewolf.  But, once this baby came on the scene, the showrunners had tied their own hands behind their back.  

Of course, I fully expect that it will turn out that Kelly is actually Juliette's baby--it's contrived and we can see it coming a mile away (but I'm okay with it because I HATE with the fiery heat of a thousand suns the whole Nadalind thing) but it really just come off as a cheap attempt of them trying to get themselves out of the corner they've created.

 

3

Thanks Ottermommy for your answer. Part of me does wish that this would be the last season of Grimm since the show has gone down this rabbit hole of rape and babies (and the fewer episodes we get, the better). 

Edited August 2, 2016 by TVSpectator

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I also think that the show needs to rebuild the animosity between Nick and Adalind because, without it, there is nothing interesting between the two of them.  An easy (that is, lazy) way to do that is that build up a "who gets Kelly" fight between the two of them.  My gut feeling is that there just isn't anything there to keep an emotional tie, at least from Nick's side (especially if DG is being given more sway this season.  Both DG and CC were, at best, less than lukewarm about the possibility of a Nick/Adalind relationship in the pre-season and early season 5 interviews last year) so they have to build something up and, again, it is very much in character for the showrunners to throw in the possibility that Juliette is genetically Kelly's mother, especially since they already laid the groundwork for that in season 4.

I really hope they don't go down this road.  It isn't even necessary, even if the groundwork is laid.  We saw Juliette and her ovaries and DNA up and walking around, out getting her hair done for Rosalee and Monroe's wedding, when Nick and Adalind were doing the deed.  They can just leave it at that.  As for any type of custody battle, that is too thorny, because where will the battle take place?  Courtroom?  I don't think so.  This can't even get in the door of the legal system.  Likewise DNA testing.  There is no way to explain the results of that to a scientist let alone a judge.  I agree with Darklazr that Adalind has to die before Julieve gets baby Kelly.  Knowing this show, they'd have her die heroically. 

[Darklazr]

I was joking about Adalind dieing, because the show seems hell bent on Adalind/Renard, Nick/not dead Juliette Eve and Monroe/Rosalie couples.  I love Monroe and Rosalie and hope they end up with a litter of pups!  I personally hope Diana does in fact age rapidly or turn into Frau Pech so we can get rid of this character once and for all.  Nick and Adalind can co-parent Kelly Jr. and not dead Juliette Eve can end up alone, but NOT romantically paired up with her ex.

[SnarkyTart]

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 1:50 PM, ShadowFacts said:

 

Thank you for your kind comments!

[neuromom]

I had to come over here to read what "my peeps" had to say...because I was just on the Grimm social media, where fans are just loving all over the idea of Nick/Adalind. Thus far, I believe I'm the ONLY one to call her out as a rapist, and how sick this all is. It's depressing. This is what the fans want? never mind Adalind dying. Or Diana dying. Or Juliette/Eve...this whole SHOW just needs to die in 13 episodes, so that I can properly grieve over something I once loved. 

[OtterMommy]

9 minutes ago, neuromom said:

I had to come over here to read what "my peeps" had to say...because I was just on the Grimm social media, where fans are just loving all over the idea of Nick/Adalind. Thus far, I believe I'm the ONLY one to call her out as a rapist, and how sick this all is. It's depressing. This is what the fans want? never mind Adalind dying. Or Diana dying. Or Juliette/Eve...this whole SHOW just needs to die in 13 episodes, so that I can properly grieve over something I once loved. 

Ugh...the Nick/Adalind thing...that's why I've stayed away from pretty much all social media on Grimm except this board.  I can only take so much of it....

And, yeah, my thoughts on the rape thing have been well documented here my feelings haven't changed...BUT...even if you take that out of the equation (which you shouldn't....) there is still a big problem here.

I was recently listening to a books/writing podcast where an author was interviewed (I think it was Liza Palmer, but I could be wrong on that).  Anyway, they were talking about when they DNF books and the author pointed out that the same thing happens with TV shows. Her view--and I agree with this after watching Grimm--is that TV shows (and books) make "contracts" with their viewers (readers).  There are certain universal clauses that are in all contracts...things like strong writing and acting, of course.  But they also, from the first few episodes--if not the first episode--define in the "contract" what the viewer can expect.  

Obviously, thing can change--characters can turn dark, characters can be redeemed, characters can fall in and out of love, etc--but all that needs to happen within the parameters of the agreement.  So, with Grimm, we were presented with:

1 - An idealistic, somewhat cocky young detective who inherits a family trait that turns his life upside down.

2 - He's in a relationship with a woman who, he believes, cannot know about this (as an aside, I think Grimm made a big mistake right off the bat with Nick and Juliette.  Instead of them being almost-engaged, I really think they should have already been married.  The whole engagement thing never went anywhere and, if they were already married, it would have made more sense that Nick would have stayed with Juliette when Aunt Marie told him to leave.  Yeah, it sucks when you have to break up with someone you love but, if you aren't married, it isn't much more than just a break up.  However, if they are married, it just isn't that logistically easy.  Plus, it would have possibly made the badly executed amnesia of s2 a little more poignant).

3 - He has a partner who cannot know about this, but already sort of suspects something.

4 - He meets a strange man who is serves as his bridge to this new world.

5 - He seems to trust his captain, although the viewers know there are reasons not to.

6 - There is a strange woman who tries to kill his aunt.  Going forward through the season, we learn that this woman is vindictive and has, for various reasons, put a bullseye on Nick.

Now, I understand why--eventually--Hank and Juliette needed to know about Nick's Grimmness and I think that is a case where the show handled it in a moderately successful way.  Actually, I think the show stayed well within its contract for most of the first 3 seasons (I know that this is not a popular opinion, but I think the introduction of Truble was the first major breach--let us not forget that this show is called Grimm and not Grimms.  If they wanted to bring in another Grimm, I would have much preferred it be a "traditional" Grimm and presented as a villain, not a protegee for Nick.  Something that I felt was in that original "contract" was that Nick would be an atypical Grimm--instead, he became the norm and not the exception.)

Now let's go to the end of season 3.  So far, the only real break we've had was with Renard being...whatever.  He forgot that he was supposed to be nefarious and, out of the blue, became a zauberbiest (according to K/G/C, they didn't decide to make him a zauberbiest until they were writing season 2).  Adalind is off having a baby and, honestly, even that was within the parameters they had created--until she started being all maternal after Diana was born...but, really, that was small beans.

Then THAT THING happens at the end of season 3, which is the beginning of the end.  The show is able to keep things going, sort of, for the first half of season 4.  The episodes of Grimmless Nick were pretty dull--neither the character of Trubel nor J. Toboni's acting was strong enough to keep things going, but then Nick was back.  And then they had the Wesenrein which, honestly, should not have worked and they pulled it off suprisingly well.  The problem came with hexenjuliette.

It was at this point that they (K/G/C) basically decided that they didn't need to abide by the agreement they had made with the viewers.  Juliette became the big bad without any groundwork other than the hexen thing (missed opportunity, by the way.  If they had laid the groundwork of suppressed resentment in Juliette in regards to Nick's grimmness, they *might* have been able to pull this off). Then we have magic baby #2.  I didn't like magic baby #1, but at least it made some sense in the plot.  No show, no matter how paranormal, should have more than one magic baby.  To compound matters, magic pregnancy #2 was executed as ridiculously as possible.

Season 5...and here is where it all comes to a head.  As I said, things can change in a show, as long as it comes naturally.  At no point...

1 - Was Nick EVER the sort of person who would just move on from Juliette "dying" without grieving

2 - Was Nick EVER the sort of person who just move Adalind move in and be, at worst, civil to her--even if she had his child (also, PATERNITY TEST!  At no point was Nick EVER the sort of person to take Adalind's word on anything, especially not the paternity of her child!)

3 - Was Nick EVER the sort of person who would be "okay" with Juliette just...being someone else.

4 - Was Adalind EVER the person who would just move in with Nick (unless she had a motive.  Another missed opportunity...they might have been able to make the season sort of work if they had taken the route of Adalind and the long con)

5 - Was Adalind EVER the person who would become completely passive

6 - Were Nick and Adalind EVER the two people who would, well, whatever.  From what I can tell, Adalind thinks she's in love and Nick is having maintenance sex. (And Nick was NEVER the "maintenance sex" sort of guy...)

7 - Were Monroe and Rosalee (and, frankly Hank and Wu) EVER the people who would just stand by and "be supportive" as Nick gave up his last brain cell and both testicles.

8 - Renard...well, not since mid-season 2 was Renard the sort of person to be the thing he was in season 5.

Honestly, I should have just turned this show off when that insultingly ridiculous letter came out from the writers after the season 5 premiere.  They made no secret that they had no respect for this unspoken agreement that all shows (er, all successful shows) make with their audience and they obviously felt that the viewers should just go along with it.  Unfortunately for them, it doesn't work that way.  If a show breaks one of these unspoken contracts with a show, the bulk of the viewers walk...and that is exactly what happened.

As for season 6.  I'm starting think that we'll never see it, at least not on Friday nights on NBC.  Maybe they'll release it to Amazon and/or hulu and let the "fans" of the show finish it that way.  Didn't they already pull it off from their previously announced 10/28 premiere date?  If NBC's new shows do well (a big if, because...well...this is NBC), there would be no reason for them to ever air season 6.  

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

As for season 6.  I'm starting think that we'll never see it, at least not on Friday nights on NBC.  Maybe they'll release it to Amazon and/or hulu and let the "fans" of the show finish it that way.  Didn't they already pull it off from their previously announced 10/28 premiere date?  If NBC's new shows do well (a big if, because...well...this is NBC), there would be no reason for them to ever air season 6.  

That just makes me sad, if we never see it on good old Friday night.  It isn't listed with a fall premiere from what I can find.  It isn't uncommon for shows to decline somewhat in quality in later seasons, but this one took a dive for no good reason, they fixed what was not broken.  The baby, the hexencrap, the stupidification of Nick, just all unnecessary.  Sad.  As someone would tweet.  I've really got no show to look forward to in the fall anymore.  And only one that starts in late winter.

[OtterMommy]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

That just makes me sad, if we never see it on good old Friday night.  It isn't listed with a fall premiere from what I can find.  It isn't uncommon for shows to decline somewhat in quality in later seasons, but this one took a dive for no good reason, they fixed what was not broken.  The baby, the hexencrap, the stupidification of Nick, just all unnecessary.  Sad.  As someone would tweet.  I've really got no show to look forward to in the fall anymore.  And only one that starts in late winter.

I didn't want to "like" this, but I totally agree.  It's one thing for a show to decline.  It's another for it to be strung, quartered, shot in the head, and left out for the vultures--as with Grimm.  Also, Grimm was not a show that was in a decline until a very specific point in season 4 (and that very specific point would be the one where my husband stood up, announced, "This is not the show I signed up for," and refused to watch an episode since).  If you look at the average rating per episode for each season, Grimm was a show that was growing.

And, yes, I'm a total OCD data geek, but here are the numbers.  The average per episode rating for each season was:

Season 1: 5.02 million
Season 2: 5.18 million
Season 3: 5.32 million
Season 4: 4.81 million (4.99 for the first half and 4.63 for the second.  Yeah, a drop...but 5.32 to 4.99 isn't too bad for a show going into its 4th season).
Season 5: 3.94 million

From what I understand about ratings, which isn't much and might not even be right, anything about about 4.5 million is good for a network Friday night show and anything below 4 is pretty much a gravestone...but if anyone knows more than I do (which, let's face it, is probably a lot of you), feel free to correct me.

Honestly, the first half of season 4...wasn't great.  But it was correctable.  Once Nick got his Grimm back on and we thought we were past the switcheroo sex, it was pretty good....for a while.  Honestly, though, I don't know how they can ever remedy what they've got now.

What I don't get--and I've said this before--is why the hell NBC put up with any of this.  Now, granted, I'm beginning to think that, as a network, there are some real issues with NBC given how they've been suffering from foot in mouth disease over the Olympics, but still!  There was obviously something going very wrong with this show that had been a solid performer for them and they try to fix this....by giving the showrunners a new contract? Really?

[Darklazr]

I am too tired and lazy to replicate @OtterMommy's post, so here are my comments.

1) Meh.  I hate Juliette, so I don't care if she was engaged or married to Nick.

2) Yes, Trubel should have never been on the show, because Nick is the "Grimm" and I really did not need another lame version of Buffy's retcon type little sister on this show.  Marie, Kelly and Roland did not bother me in the least, since their stints were short term and hopefully Josh ran to get a vasectomy once he reached home!

3) Renard's action in s5 made no sense at all, when you consider he was manipulated by Adalind and Juliette, so why go there with Rachel?  Why not have Renard show some emotional growth and let him buy a clue that Rachel was up to no good and clue in Hank and Nick?  Renard should have ran a background on Rachel from day one!

4) LOL.  Adalind goes where she can find penis and this time it's with Nick instead of Eric or Renard.    I think the writers were lazy AF to write in CC's pregnancy and could have shown Adalind from the neck up or have her fake another pregnancy so that she would not be killed by the Royal's.

5) All of the nasty and sleazy sex from Adalind, Nick, Juliette and Renard turned my stomach and was not needed on this show.  Sure, Adalind could have morphed into Juliette, BUT she did not have to sleep with Nick to take away his powers.  One of my biggest gripes from s4 is why did Nick have to lose his powers?!  Why not have Nick be able to see wesen without THEM seeing his eyes change?!  Why not give Nick this new advantage so that he and Hank don't have to run around like little boys announcing "Nick's a Grimm!"  Sheesh.

6) Grimm and Blue Bloods have been my steady Friday night shows, unless I find a movie or go out for the evening, so I would hate to lose this show!  However, I feel more for the folks that earn their living via the show and hope the writers pull their collective heads out of their backsides before it is too late.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Darklazr

[OtterMommy]

From the Spoiler Thread...

Quote

Renard told Juliette back in s4 that he had no idea where to find his mother, because we all know she was off looking for Kelly and Diana.  Yes, plot holes.  Ugh.  This show drives me bonkers.  I will never understand why Renard did not hide Adalind and Diana at Henriette's home after he rescued the baby from Viktor's clutches and then slip them out of the country to his mother's estate.  Hell, Renard could have waited until things calmed down and slipped away from Portland with Adalind and Diana never to be seen or heard from again.  However, I loathed to stick my sexy pants Renard with Adalind and Diana.  Groan.

 

You know, I could even buy that he never knew where his mother was IF SHE WASN'T HIS EMERGENCY CONTACT!

And the reason why Renard did not hide Adalind and Diana at Henrietta's house is because:

1 - Henrietta did not exist at that point.  In the end, she just ended up being nothing more than a contrivances concocted by writers who really should have known better but are unable to think beyond 2-3 episodes and, who in the end, had no clue what to do with her so they just sliced her throat.  She is the Erica Hahn of Grimm.  Er, one of them, at least.

2 - Henrietta had to agree to see you..unless Juliette gave her a heads up you were coming.  Or you just decided to show up at her doorstep.

Both Elizabeth and Henrietta ended up being huge disappointments.  They both were introduced with the potential to be game changers and they both just...fizzled out.

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

From the Spoiler Thread...

 

You know, I could even buy that he never knew where his mother was IF SHE WASN'T HIS EMERGENCY CONTACT!

And the reason why Renard did not hide Adalind and Diana at Henrietta's house is because:

1 - Henrietta did not exist at that point.  In the end, she just ended up being nothing more than a contrivances concocted by writers who really should have known better but are unable to think beyond 2-3 episodes and, who in the end, had no clue what to do with her so they just sliced her throat.  She is the Erica Hahn of Grimm.  Er, one of them, at least.

2 - Henrietta had to agree to see you..unless Juliette gave her a heads up you were coming.  Or you just decided to show up at her doorstep.

Both Elizabeth and Henrietta ended up being huge disappointments.  They both were introduced with the potential to be game changers and they both just...fizzled out.

1) Elizabeth should have agreed to help Nick regain his powers on the condition that he contact his mother and return her grandchild.  If not, Nick could sit and spin.  Renard could have told Nick he changed his mind and wants his kid back.

2) Henrietta was supposed to be this old hexenbiest with major powers and she should have been the one that ended Juliette's reign of terror.

3) Remember when Renard's mother called him after Eric died in s3 and he did not recognize the phone number?  Fine.  But, the show made a point of calling Elizabeth after Renard was shot.  Ugh.  Lazy plot points.

[OtterMommy]

From the spoilers thread (edited to hide what is probably not a true spoiler....)

Quote

I want the show to focus on wrapping up over 100 plus plot points!..that we came up with before turning off the lights.

As Grimm is a local (to me) show, I know a lot of people who watched it.  Past tense.

When I ask WHY they quit watching, it is one of three reasons:

1 - The royals plot made no sense and, once one episode was missed, you were pretty much lost (said by one friend, who quit watching in early season 3)

2 - Something in the "Nadalind" realm--whether it be romanticizing rape, the Juliette character assassination (actually, that is most common among people I know IRL, which I find surprising), or the fact that Nick and Adalind having ANY kind of non-adversarial relationship is so ridiculous with what this show had done in the first 3 and half seasons that it made the idea of watching further unpalatable.

3 - The fact that so many story lines were dropped.  

The show has no excuse for any of these, but #3 is most telling.  The keys for example--people all over social media were complaining that the keys were just dropped--which they were.  However, I don't think that fans were especially clamoring to have the key story line resolved--they just didn't want to have it forgotten.  As I posted on one of the threads a few months ago, the show could actually have used the keys to keep the show going for 8 or 9 seasons by revealing one key a season and THEN have Nick find out what they led to.  Instead, they were completely dropped for almost 2 seasons--wasn't the last time they were mentioned before Felix showed up at the end of season 3?--and then, bam, everything is all finished and they can just move onto something else.

[Darklazr]

4 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

From the spoilers thread (edited to hide what is probably not a true spoiler....)

As Grimm is a local (to me) show, I know a lot of people who watched it.  Past tense.

When I ask WHY they quit watching, it is one of three reasons:

1 - The royals plot made no sense and, once one episode was missed, you were pretty much lost (said by one friend, who quit watching in early season 3)

2 - Something in the "Nadalind" realm--whether it be romanticizing rape, the Juliette character assassination (actually, that is most common among people I know IRL, which I find surprising), or the fact that Nick and Adalind having ANY kind of non-adversarial relationship is so ridiculous with what this show had done in the first 3 and half seasons that it made the idea of watching further unpalatable.

3 - The fact that so many story lines were dropped.  

The show has no excuse for any of these, but #3 is most telling.  The keys for example--people all over social media were complaining that the keys were just dropped--which they were.  However, I don't think that fans were especially clamoring to have the key story line resolved--they just didn't want to have it forgotten.  As I posted on one of the threads a few months ago, the show could actually have used the keys to keep the show going for 8 or 9 seasons by revealing one key a season and THEN have Nick find out what they led to.  Instead, they were completely dropped for almost 2 seasons--wasn't the last time they were mentioned before Felix showed up at the end of season 3?--and then, bam, everything is all finished and they can just move onto something else.

You are so lucky!  I probably would have been arrested for following Renard/SR around Portland!  I am joking, sort of, yes, just a little joke.

My comments on your three items.

1) Grimm completely missed the boat on NOT showing us the seven Royal houses and I don't care if they made up fictitious names.   It would have been nice to know if the Royal's were a mixture of human, wesen or a combination of the two.  I really wanted that background information from their perspective on a world filled with fairy tales.

2) Juliette's character (IMO) ran its course long before Adalind returned to town with Diana and Momma Grimm.  Adalind should have NEVER been allowed to rape Nick or had another baby on this show.  If the show wanted Nick and Adalind to have sex, why not have them accidentally consume some funky drink and deal with the fallout?

3) Oh, I agree fully that way too many plot points were either dropped or simply half-ass resolved.   Yes, the key storyline would have worked if the Royal's only had one or two keys after 800 plus years of trying to get them from various Grimm's.  Marie could have had key #3 and she passed that along to Nick, who then acquired key #4 from Roland.  By the time we made it to s6, Nick would have obtained key #5 from another Grimm who was about to die and so on until we hit s9 and all SEVEN keys were found.  I enjoyed Nick and Monroe's adventure to the Black Forest, but that part of the story really should have taken up most of s9 until the show ended with what they found and brought back to Portland.  I will stop here, because the show in my head is so much better!

Edited August 30, 2016 by Darklazr

[OtterMommy]

From the media thread:

Quote

The problem with Nick vs. Renard is . . . I'm kind of rooting for Renard! And that's even after he shot my favorite character, Meisner. 

Well, why on earth would anyone root for Nick?  I may have abstained from most of season 5, but I saw enough (and read enough here and elsewhere) to know that Nick was completely pointless last season.  He's never had any real agency.  He went from sort of bumbling and clueless and relying probably too much on Monroe (which actually worked in the early seasons) to being bland and obnoxious.  As much as I thought the last half of season 4 was a mess, it did give the character of Nick quite a bit of interesting fodder for season 5, and the show did absolutely nothing with it.  I'm not saying Renard is that much better, but I would say he's a little more interesting to me right now (IF I tune back in....I don't know if I can bring myself to do that unless I know "Nadalind" is well and truly dead).  We were told that Nick was "going dark" in season 5...and instead he went dumb.  

Look, I really like DG as an actor and I think, from what I've read between the lines in the very few interviews he's done since season 4, he is not happy with how the show has gone....I'm not going to blame acting here.  Other actors may have played the role differently or even better, but there is only so much an actor can do with a script.  It was the writers who built this ridiculous Nadalind plot, the whole Black Claw/Hadrian's Wall mess, and the fact Nick is basically ineffectual as a Grimm now.  

[Darklazr]

4 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

From the media thread:

Well, why on earth would anyone root for Nick?  I may have abstained from most of season 5, but I saw enough (and read enough here and elsewhere) to know that Nick was completely pointless last season.  He's never had any real agency.  He went from sort of bumbling and clueless and relying probably too much on Monroe (which actually worked in the early seasons) to being bland and obnoxious.  As much as I thought the last half of season 4 was a mess, it did give the character of Nick quite a bit of interesting fodder for season 5, and the show did absolutely nothing with it.  I'm not saying Renard is that much better, but I would say he's a little more interesting to me right now (IF I tune back in....I don't know if I can bring myself to do that unless I know "Nadalind" is well and truly dead).  We were told that Nick was "going dark" in season 5...and instead he went dumb.  

Look, I really like DG as an actor and I think, from what I've read between the lines in the very few interviews he's done since season 4, he is not happy with how the show has gone....I'm not going to blame acting here.  Other actors may have played the role differently or even better, but there is only so much an actor can do with a script.  It was the writers who built this ridiculous Nadalind plot, the whole Black Claw/Hadrian's Wall mess, and the fact Nick is basically ineffectual as a Grimm now.  

I agree s5 should have never jumped over to BC/HW when we know absolutely nothing about the other six Royal houses.   I would have much prefered no more darn babies, except for Monroe and Rosalie's in s6.  What I really can't stand is that the "Grimm" is basically wallpaper, because the writers seem to have a hardon for the hexenbiests.  

If only we could wind the clock back to the end of s4 and Juliette left town after being cured by Rosalie, because she no longer wanted anything to do with Nick or the Scooby gang.  Trubel never showed up looking for Juliette, Adalind was not pregnant, the trailer was never torched, Kelly cut off all contact with Nick in order to keep Diana away from the Royal's and the show focused on resolving over 100 plot holes!