Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[WhiteStumbler]

2 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

They both prefer sleeping with their relatives.

HA! Nice one. Though to be fair to Dany, she didn't know that Jon was actually Aegon (AegJon?) Targaryen when they got cozy on the Love Boat to White Harbor, so we don't know that it is a preference per se.

[DirewolfPup]

1 hour ago, WhiteStumbler said:

HA! Nice one. Though to be fair to Dany, she didn't know that Jon was actually Aegon (AegJon?) Targaryen when they got cozy on the Love Boat to White Harbor, so we don't know that it is a preference per se.

Unintended preference 😉

[gingerella]

After the silly Magic Dragon Ride to the Disney Frozen set, I’m left wondering about the remaining dire wolves. IIRC, we’ve only two left yes? Nymeria and Ghost. We saw Nymeria’s new wolf pack and Arya shooed her away and back to her new life, but will she return to protect Arya in her most dire (pun intended) hour of need? And what of Ghost? We’ve not seen him yet, which doesn’t surprise me in that Winterfell is full up with folks right now and Ghost is reclusive, so I assume he’s outside the gates somewhere roaming nearby. but what I’m thinking is, Dany has her dragons, and Jon has his dire wolf. Would Ghost kill Dany if she was threatening Jon, or would Dany kill Ghost if she felt threatened? And can Bran warg into Ghost? Its not ‘his’ dire wolf but can he still use him for intel? Maybe warg into Ghost and have him up ahead, giving intel on where the Army and NK are right now, and use that to give the Army of the Living a strategic edge? 

Also, Jon can also warg Ghost, yes? Didn’t we see that at Castle Black, when we thought he was going to be resurected into Ghosts body? So maybe he uses Ghost for intel, which makes more sense because if Bran wargs Ghost, the NK might be able to ‘see’ him? 

[WhiteStumbler]

25 minutes ago, gingerella said:

And can Bran warg into Ghost? Its not ‘his’ dire wolf but can he still use him for intel? Maybe warg into Ghost and have him up ahead, giving intel on where the Army and NK are right now, and use that to give the Army of the Living a strategic edge? 

If Bran can warg into Hodor, I see no reason why he couldn't warg into Ghost, assuming Ghost is within visual range. I don't know that wolves are the best for gathering intel, though - Bran seems to be doing just fine with ravens.

23 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Also, Jon can also warg Ghost, yes?

I never had that impression. All I saw was a loyal direwolf laying beneath his dead masters cooling board. If Jon can warg into Ghost, why hasn't he mentioned it to anybody else?

What are the chances Bran wargs a dragon before the end? o_0

[DirewolfPup]

In addition to the magic dragon ride to the incest waterfall (nicest... I mean nicest...), I don't see much point to lead up to Jon as a dragon rider. We've seen Dany ride one. And we've seen the dragon be very friendly with Jon. It's not a stretch to say he could ride his way to safety in the event he needs to ride a dragon. Without this scene, it would not be implausible for him to ride a dragon without practicing. Dany did it during the Meereen fighting pit fiasco.

This scene was pointless, off-character for A Show. Took me right out of the moment.

[gingerella]

13 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

What are the chances Bran wargs a dragon before the end? o_0

Pretty good odds I'd say. I wonder though, if he wargs into Ice Dragon, if it'll kill him. I could see that, Bran wargs the ice dragboni, turns him on the NK and the Army of the Dead, wiping them out, but then exploding somehow, taking Bran with him. I don't see Bran making it out alive in this, though I do see him sacrificing himself to save mankind. But it would have to be a 'once and for all' scenario, where the WWs are wiped out forever, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to lose the TER, right?

[janjan]

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

I don't see Bran making it out alive in this, though I do see him sacrificing himself to save mankind. But it would have to be a 'once and for all' scenario, where the WWs are wiped out forever, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to lose the TER, right?

Oooooo, brilliant, Ginge. Right now, the sides seem pretty evenly matched, but Bran might somehow be the deciding factor. The Night King has a dragon, but only Team Living has a TER.

8 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

. . . the magic dragon ride to the incest waterfall (nicest... I mean nicest...), 

Hee! < Spills grog on herself laughing. >

[gingerella]

Something else I've been chewing on...IF the battle of the Living vs. The Dead happens before the end of the season and we're able to see what happens with the rest of the 7 Kingdoms battling it out for control, I wonder...is it possible that a 'new Wall' is created when Fire and Ice meet at Winterfell? Sort of like a new mountain range of carbon rises up from all the well and truly Dead? I'm not sure we know what happens to a dead Wight do we?  I know they have to be burned, but do they also get killed with dragonglass like a WW? I assume so. We saw last season that when a WW is killed all the Wights it's reanimated die with it, I wonder if Bran will be able to warg into something and see where the WWs are and let Jon & Co. know so they can aim their resources at taking out the WWs rather than trying to kill the massive hoardes of Zombonis? I'm just spitballing because what else do we have to do until next Sunday...

[janjan]

< trying to pull memory fragments out of an overloaded mind >

Jon explained at the negotiation in the dragon pit that fire kills wights [ burns the detached hand ] and dragonglass also kills wights [ stabs the writhing torso ].  Ick.

He didn't explain why Aegon the Conqueror's dragons didn't just fly out of the dragon pit the same way Dany's did.

Someone else (I forget who) explained that wights die when the one who turned them dies, so focus on the Night King and you get them all.

[Pallas]

I don't think that The Three-Eyed Raven can warg into the dead, so Ice-serion should be immune. And we know that as of now, anyway, the Raven also can't warg into the Night King. On the other hand, the Night King can track and harm the Three-Eyed Raven when the Raven is present in the past. 

[janjan]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

 Night King can track and harm the Three-Eyed Raven when the Raven is present in the past.  

Root Dude was quite concerned that NK had touched Bran, giving him (NK) some kind of power over Bran. Not sure what that power is, but it might be TER's undoing -- perhaps, as Ginge and Anothermi say, when TER is in the process of saving humanity.

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

Root Dude was quite concerned that NK had touched Bran, giving him (NK) some kind of power over Bran.

Of course (I just realized) Bran wasn't yet the Three-Eyed Raven then: the Three-Eyed Raven was. So what Brandon Stark could and couldn't do or warg may not be predictive. I think when the battle is done, however, Bran will merge with the Winterfell weirwood tree. 

[gingerella]

57 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Of course (I just realized) Bran wasn't yet the Three-Eyed Raven then: the Three-Eyed Raven was. So what Brandon Stark could and couldn't do or warg may not be predictive. I think when the battle is done, however, Bran will merge with the Winterfell weirwood tree. 

First, you're right @Pallas, I completely forgot about the fact that Bran wasn't the TER...yet...when the NK touched him. But IIRC, when the NK touched Bran in that vision, isn't that when the NK was able to send WWs to Root Dude's tree? IIRC that happened as a direct result of the NK touching Bran, and thus was able to see the GPS coordinates of Root Dude, or am I mistaken? If I'm correct, it's still unclear if he was able to find them bec because Root Dude was sort of with Bran in the vision, or propelling him into the vision, or if he found them because he could track the physical shell of Bran and he was with Root Dude at that time, physically. If all this is so, then we're not sure at this point in time, whether or not the NK can still track Bran now that he is the TER, correct? If so, that's a boon for Bran and the Living, if not and the NK can still locate Bran as the TER, then he's in deep shit.

Second, I'm loving your last spitball! Bran merging with the Winterfell weirwood tree would be so poetic.

[Anothermi]

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

If all this is so, then we're not sure at this point in time, whether or not the NK can still track Bran now that he is the TER, correct?

I have a memory of Bran warging a raven after his escape to Castle Black, to reconnoiter the position of the Army of the Dead. At one point he realizes the NK had pinpointed the raven he was warging and Bran and the whole murder had to bug outta there unceremoniously.

I don't actually remember where Bran was. My main memory is a scene starting with a murder of ravens hanging out in a dead tree (conversing the way they do) and the eyes of a number of them turning white. Then they took off and the rest of the scene is viewed from the air until there is a cut to the NK sensing Bran's presence and a mad flight to get away.

Anyone else remember this?

 I think this means Bran is detectable by the NK but the main danger there is when he is warging because he has no one to protect the creature he’s warging and it could be killed before he can warg out.  That restricts his present day intel gathering to say the least.

Perhaps, however, Bran has gained more skills since then. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Anothermi
clarity

[gingerella]

Yes @Anothermi, I do remember that scene too.

I’m not sure we’ve discussed this in depth or not but, we don’t really know the connection between the NK and Bran and/or the NK and TER, do we? It seems odd that the NK can sense Bran or the TER, let alone mark him to the extent that he is then able to find Bran. To be honest, thinking back, it isnt clear to me WHY the NK was after Bran, what is their connection? Were the TER ( Root Dude) and the NK family (brothers jumps into my head but I don’t know why) or friends before each ‘turned’ and that’s why they can track each other? Or, if the connection is between the NK and Bran, what is that connection, is the NK a former Stark perhaps? That’s all I can think of because the Starks have been Wardens of the North for eons...or perhaps NK was in the Nights Watch and was on a mission north of the Wall when something happened and he was turned? It’s also unclear if the NK and the guy who was the first WW created by the CotF are one and the same.  Oy, A Show makes my head hurt...

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

It’s also unclear if the NK and the guy who was the first WW created by the CotF are one and the same. 

I've been assuming that they are. Seems to me that the first WW would be the one that created all the other ones which would defacto make him the leader - if not the King. That guy could have a bucket load of resentment to spread around.

[Pallas]

As I recall, when we heard and saw the story of the making of the first WhiteWalker from a First Man impaled through the heart by dragonglass, we cut from a flashback close-up of the First Man's face to a present-moment close-up of the Night King's face. The same technique -- complete with voice-over narration of the origin story -- used to confirm that Lyanna's newborn babe grew up to become our Jon Snow, King in the North.

In their war with the First Men, the Children of the Forest turned a First Man into a White Walker. Then (during that war, or after?) it seems that the White Walker raised an army of the dead (from both sides?), and the Children united with the First Men to defeat it. That's when the victors erected the Wall, with some living survivors trapped or in voluntary exile beyond it.

The Night King, Jon Snow and Viserion (and Beric, in how many of his incarnations?) all impaled through the heart, and revived by magic from either the Children of the Forest or The Lord of Light.

[WhiteStumbler]

Great discussion, all. I have a thought that I can't really articulate right now, but it might be a proto-spitball...

I also think the Children of the Forest-created first WW and the Night King are the same.

Maybe somehow all of this destruction and death by the NK is to get Bran/3ER to undo what the CotF did all those years ago. He might be like a lion with a splinter in his paw that he can't pull out, but instead of a splinter, it is a dragonglass shard in his heart. Now the NK has become a rage-filled shambling frosty apocalypse, all because he can't get someone to help. This is why the NK keeps recreating the spiral pattern in body parts (horses at the Fist of the First Men, hands and arms surrounding little Ned Umber in S8E1) that we saw in standing stones around the tree where the CotF first created him. We also saw that spiral pattern etched on the wall (supposedly by the CotF) where Jon & Co. were mining all the dragonglass on Dragonstone.

Or something. I'm not sure if this makes sense. Maybe I need more (probably less) coffee.

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Great discussion, all. I have a thought that I can't really articulate right now, but it might be a proto-spitball...

I also think the Children of the Forest-created first WW and the Night King are the same.

Maybe somehow all of this destruction and death by the NK is to get Bran/3ER to undo what the CotF did all those years ago. He might be like a lion with a splinter in his paw that he can't pull out, but instead of a splinter, it is a dragonglass shard in his heart. Now the NK has become a rage-filled shambling frosty apocalypse, all because he can't get someone to help. This is why the NK keeps recreating the spiral pattern in body parts (horses at the Fist of the First Men, hands and arms surrounding little Ned Umber in S8E1) that we saw in standing stones around the tree where the CotF first created him. We also saw that spiral pattern etched on the wall (supposedly by the CotF) where Jon & Co. were mining all the dragonglass on Dragonstone.

Or something. I'm not sure if this makes sense. Maybe I need more (probably less) coffee.

I would love this to be where A Show's headed Stumbler. It shows the classic human tragedy of not understanding the other person (or WW as the case may be) and how that creates a string of events that could have been avoided had each side been able to listen to each other. Clearly the NK has magical powers, and perhaps that's why he honed in on Jon at Hardhome - he could sense that Jon had them too, or maybe it's because he sensed Jon is "The" King that Meli is always going on about and the NK knows that he has to connect with Jon - and Bran/TER - to have them do his bidding, which is to destroy himself and the Army of the Dead once and for all. Like you said, he's a lion with a thorn in his paw, but he's never been able to get close enough to someone to pull it out. But he knows that Jon & Co. can are his best chance to do that now.

And the spiral patterns we keep seeing, that are the calling cards of the WWs, could that somehow be hinting at a wheel, at "THE" Wheel that Dany wants to break? But in this case the wheel is this endless cycle of the NK hibernating for thousands of years until the time is right to rise up and try to get an SOS to someone to help him help himself? Sort of his way of saying, "Stop this merry go round, I need to get off!" but nobody's stopped it yet. Maybe he's raising his army now because he knows - through his magical prowess -  that Jon, the savior, has finally arrived, that in a sense, the Rubik's Cube of A Show has finally aligned with Magic, Human Nature, the Environment, and Religion all coming to a head and clicking into place - much like each location clicks into place in the opening credits - so that THIS is the time, finally, that the NK can end his suffering once and for all...

That's where I think you're going, yes? If so, I like it! Please, go re-caffeinate and tell us more...

[WhiteStumbler]

10 minutes ago, gingerella said:

so that THIS is the time, finally, that the NK can end his suffering once and for all...

Something like that, but, after adjusting my caffeine level, I see a flaw - The NK used the mark he put on Bran to find the 3ER cave. If he needed the 3ER to stop the cycle and "pull the thorn from his paw", why kill the Max von Sydow version of the 3ER without a second glance? Why would it have to be the Bran version of the 3ER who ends the cycle, and not the original version? Also, as a former human, wouldn't he understand that the best way to get help (rather than inducing flight) might not be to send a swarm of undead zombonis chasing after your potential helper? Hmmm...

[gingerella]

44 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Something like that, but, after adjusting my caffeine level, I see a flaw - The NK used the mark he put on Bran to find the 3ER cave. If he needed the 3ER to stop the cycle and "pull the thorn from his paw", why kill the Max von Sydow version of the 3ER without a second glance? Why would it have to be the Bran version of the 3ER who ends the cycle, and not the original version? Also, as a former human, wouldn't he understand that the best way to get help (rather than inducing flight) might not be to send a swarm of undead zombonis chasing after your potential helper? Hmmm...

I get your points, however, Bran was sort of halfway the TER at that point when the NK marked him, yes? So perhaps he had to have the full TER help him and thus he had to get rid of Root Dude so that Bran would fully embody the TER? Hey, I'm grasping at ravens right now, along with you so....grain of salt and all that...

[Anothermi]

27 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Something like that, but, after adjusting my caffeine level, I see a flaw - The NK used the mark he put on Bran to find the 3ER cave. If he needed the 3ER to stop the cycle and "pull the thorn from his paw", why kill the Max von Sydow version of the 3ER without a second glance? Why would it have to be the Bran version of the 3ER who ends the cycle, and not the original version? Also, as a former human, wouldn't he understand that the best way to get help (rather than inducing flight) might not be to send a swarm of undead zombonis chasing after your potential helper? Hmmm...

Intriguing.

I'm with @gingerella on the thought that the NK's ultimate goal is to end his own torment. Immortality is not all it's cracked up to be - ask the vampires.

But as I mentioned up thread, this former-1st man had a lot of anger and resentment bottled up inside. So...

Why kill the Max/TER and not seek help from him? 

Spitball incoming:  If Max/TER was a human at the time of the creation of the first WW, he may even have known the first man who the CotF chose for their "warrior". Perhaps the NK even blames Max in some way. I think this is possible because the tales Old Nan told Young Bran were lore from long, long ago and the 3eyed Raven was already part of that. Heck, I'd even spitball that Max/TER was also "created" by the CotF but perhaps willingly, as a way to always be aware of what NK was up to because the CotF, themselves, did not have the power to stop or contol him.  (I'd even spitball that Max/TER could have been the NK's father because who do we love to hate most? Our parents.)

The CotF may have foreseen the coming of the Lord of Light's prophesied Prince-who-would-lead-us-all. They did what they could to constrain the powerful anger of the NK (keep tabs on him).  Truly, the Rubics Cube theory is looking mighty good to me at this moment (yes, likely to be crushed by A Show, but I'm enjoying it for now as it is a beautiful theorem).

Further, while it may be the end-goal of the NK to end his own misery, he is motivated by hate and anger. After thousands of years of this cycle it may have hardened into his raison d'etre. (If I've got to live like this, everyone will have to!) The CotF likely didn't realize that the temperament of the human they selected would define the warrior they created until it was too late. And with Max/TER they might have been a little bit more careful? (it would take magic for a human to live all this time, and becoming one with a weirwood tree to boot! 

3 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

This is why the NK keeps recreating the spiral pattern in body parts (horses at the Fist of the First Men, hands and arms surrounding little Ned Umber in S8E1) that we saw in standing stones around the tree where the CotF first created him. We also saw that spiral pattern etched on the wall (supposedly by the CotF) where Jon & Co. were mining all the dragonglass on Dragonstone.

Great thought, KFC.  It's an icy form of a message in a bottle. "SOS"

By the way, I believe that the tree Max/TER was under is/was the same tree as the 1st WW was tied to when created. In the scene where Bran is "touched" by the NK he is just outside that tree and there are vestiges of the stone spiral visible in the long shots. Just sayin'. For what it's worth.

[janjan]

Quote

Gingerella: It shows the classic human tragedy of not understanding the other person (or WW as the case may be) and how that creates a string of events that could have been avoided had each side been able to listen to each other.

I like the thorn in his paw idea, despite WS's cogent critique. It introduces an unexpected and very interesting twist in A Show that has become famous for them. Maybe they can work out the kinks and make it so.

Other media are also getting on that particular bandwagon. [No spoilers, Mods! I'm innocent - don't ban me!!] When Kit Harington hosted "Saturday Night Live," he took questions from the audience, including the new Mrs. Ygritte Harington who asked what they're going to do for money now that A Show is done filming. Then NK spoke up and asked wistfully why nobody likes him.

Then HBO's new acquisition, "Sesame Street," put out a video on Twitter showing Elmo brokering a peace between Cersei and Tyrion by getting them to just listen to and respect each other.

So maybe A Show will let everyone live happily ever after. Oh wait, that's not what they do. They killed Ned! They squished Oberyn!! They poisoned Mrs. Peel!!!

I'm not optimistic.

[WhiteStumbler]

2 hours ago, janjan said:

Other media are also getting on that particular bandwagon.

NONONO! It is MY spitball! 😆😆😆😆

I am trying to think of how A Show could head-fake us, though...

Maybe the WWs and the Army of the Dead are not the threat they have been built up to be and, once the NK is dispatched (by whatever means), the real action is the Targ / Stark / Arryn assault on KL. BTW I hope they find a way to include the Dornish army somewhere this season - they are the last army that hasn't seen combat (Tyrell army was defeated off-screen) and I would looove to see an army of fighters like Oberyn.

Or the NK bypasses Winterfell entirely and makes a beeline for KL, with the potential to add a million + zombonis to his army!

Or the last shot of the series is all of the survivors on Pyke, looking at a distant shore lined with glinting blue-eyed corpses, as the sea slooooowly starts to freeze over. Fade to black, no soundtrack as the credits roll.

[janjan]

14 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

NONONO! It is MY spitball! 😆😆😆😆

Indeed it was. I begin my Walk of Shame.

15 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

once the NK is dispatched (by whatever means), the real action is the Targ / Stark / Arryn assault on KL.

Yeah, betcha that's coming soon to a screen near you. Tormund et al. and the remains of the Night's Watch are on their way to Winterfell, and worried that the Army of the Dead might beat them to it. So the AoD isn't far away. Maybe even this Sunday. And the whole rest of S8 will be sorting out the politics of Westeros.

23 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

I would looove to see an army of fighters like Oberyn.

< sniffle >

24 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Or the last shot of the series is all of the survivors on Pyke, looking at a distant shore lined with glinting blue-eyed corpses, as the sea slooooowly starts to freeze over. Fade to black, no soundtrack as the credits roll.

Just like "The Sopranos."

[gingerella]

17 minutes ago, janjan said:

So the AoD isn't far away. Maybe even this Sunday. And the whole rest of S8 will be sorting out the politics of Westeros.

I sort of hope this is where we're headed, and not the rest of the final season completely about the NK and WWs and the like. But everyone keeps talking about the battle between the Living and the Dead so...not a good sign if you ask me.

[Pallas]

I'm of the mind that there'll be two climaxes this season, the first taking place up North between the living and the dead, and the second in King's Landing, where Cersei makes her final stand. There are core familial conflicts that require resolution face-to- face: Lannister, Greyjoy, Clegane, and ultimately, Targaryen. 

As we speculated last season, the Night King may simply want to go home. I just reviewed the scene in the cave where Bran had his vision of the making the Night King. At the center of a clearing is the Weirwood tree where the First Man is tied. All around him stand Children of the Forest: arrayed in that same spiral pattern that the Night King now leaves as his tag.

The monster made of a man by the Children, he was a living sacrifice for a losing cause. But his existence ultimately catalyzed an alliance between his creators and their enemies. When they succeeded in keeping him at bay, pushed far north, the same magic that the Children used to create him was built into the Wall that exiled him from his former home and fellows, in perpetuity.

So every few millennia, when the patterns on gingerella's cube align, he rises and takes up the battle. As Stumbler noted, he has given no quarter in his battles with the living, making no attempt to capture rather than kill any of them, including Jon (twice) and Bran. I don't think he wants help, any more than Cersei does. I think he wants to win.

[Pallas]

About the Night King: his creation is his core trauma. He continues to duplicate it, ritualistically, using actual children in his own former role: the victim of the Children of the Forest. And using body parts of his own current-day victims to stand in for the Children, who had carefully placed themselves in that spiral shape as they witnessed his transformation: like a drill team at halftime.

The Free Folk girl stabbed through the heart and impaled on a tree in the pilot, with the spiral symbol composed of her family's body parts arranged in the snow nearby. Ned Umber, stabbed through the heart and impaled on a wooden wall, with the spiral symbol composed of his liegemen's human limbs around his body.

The Night King Remembers.

[gingerella]

15 minutes ago, Pallas said:

About the Night King: his creation is his core trauma. He continues to duplicate it, ritualistically, using actual children in his own former role: the victim of the Children of the Forest. And using body parts of his own current-day victims to stand in for the Children, who had carefully placed themselves in that spiral shape as they witnessed his transformation: like a drill team at halftime.

The Free Folk girl stabbed through the heart and impaled on a tree in the pilot, with the spiral symbol composed of her family's body parts arranged in the snow nearby. Ned Umber, stabbed through the heart and impaled on a wooden wall, with the spiral symbol composed of his liegemen's human limbs around his body.

The Night King Remembers.

When you put it like that Pallas, it sounds like the NK uses the CotF's symbology as a big FUCK YOU back at them. We don't know what the spiral means, but it seems like it's an important nugget, doesn't it? I wonder if A Show will reveal its meaning or leave us hanging, as I fear it will on so many levels what with what I assume is a lot of battle stuff to come, I just don't see how they can wrap this all up on 5 more episodes, even if a couple/few are 20 minutes longer.  Back to the spiral...it's almost as if it's the sigil of the CotF, but other than using it as a snub to them, what's the point? I mean, it's pretty clear who killed Ned Umber without that spiral body parts. And in S01E01, the scene in the forest with the little girl and the body parts, they wouldn't have known necessarily it was WWs, just that someone batshit crazy did it because nobody had seen WWs in hundreds of years at that point.  I sometimes wonder if the show runners even care that so many pieces might not be resolved and that A Viewer actually does care about those little pieces...

[janjan]

Viewers remember. Viewers care. We still haven't forgiven the SRs for Alister and the dead hand.

[gingerella]

On 4/18/2019 at 1:27 PM, Anothermi said:

Truly, the Rubics Cube theory is looking mighty good to me at this moment (yes, likely to be crushed by A Show, but I'm enjoying it for now as it is a beautiful theorem).

You know, I made that shit up one night when I couldn't stop thinking about A Show, but now it seems so obvious. All these main elements had to come to a head at exactly the same time in order for 'this thing' that's about to happen to happen. The climate had to shift and Winter had to well and truly come, icing over terrain and water so that the NK and his army could advance on mankind to the South. Religion and Magic had to brew and ripen to a point where both collided and infused one another and in a sense empowered each other - the LoL has influenced so much of a show in the name of Religion, but also using powerful Magic as well (Mel, the BwoB, Smoke Baby Baratheon, WWs and their polar bears and now their ice dragon), and Human Nature had to propel Mankind into a roiling pot of power soup, with so many wanting to gain control of the power seat. All this had to happen at exactly the right time so that all these elements would come to a head in a way that has been bigger than anything anyone has ever seen or remembered or even believed possible. Because remember, Old Nan's stories were just that, stories that were from thousands of years ago so nobody really believed them at the point where A Show began. Sure, the NW didn't look too jazzed to leave the confines of Castle Black in that first awesome shot, but they also hadn't really gotten a firsthand look at WWs...yet...now it's all very real and the North knows shit's about to get very real. But none of this could have happened without the climate, religion, magic, and mankind's foibles all coming to a head in this moment.

I remember how shocked we all were back in S01 when Ned got beheaded, we all thought he was the main character and suddenly A Show killed off our beloved Ned Stark! WTF? How would this story move forward without him? But now, looking back on it all, and keeping in mind the above, I think Ned had to die so that the true evil of Joffrey and Cersei could be unleashed, so that Stannis could make a play for his claim, which in turn brought Melisandre to Westeros so that she could ultimately find Jon and be there to bring him back from the dead, so he could in turn fulfill his role (still TBD) and Jon had to take the Black so that he could go to the Wall and meet Sam - who he became close to - and who would eventually be the one to find out and tell Jon the truth of his real parentage because who else would Jon ever believe to tell him that news? And Sansa had to endure the torment of Joffrey to learn how Cersei’s mind worked, and endured the torture that was Ramsey, and the deceit of LF so she could see and know when she was getting played, and the full extent of her knowledge and what she will do with it is still to come. And, and, and, all these characters had to endure what they have to date so that they are all in the correct placement, a la the Cube, when the NK arrives, and for whatever else is to come after, if there’s is an after.

And so, that's why I cannot imagine that this NK/WW shit can last the rest of the season, there is so much else that must be resolved as well, that goes beyond the NK and his army. Let's hope the show runners don't give short shrift to all the human nature stories that still need to be told. A Viewer gives a shit, it is known.

Edited April 20, 2019 by gingerella

[gingerella]

I’m getting the feeling that Arya might be the one to take out the NK if she can kill a WW and steal his ‘face’ to get close enough to the NK to kill him. Then again, I wonder if Jaquen knows what’s going on and might show up to help her as a faceless man...I mention it only because he’s still on @WhiteStumbler‘s S8 Milk Carton List.

[DirewolfPup]

I have a deep, dark secret to admit. Up until gingerella's posts above, I could not wrap my head around the rubics cube theory. What are the six sides again?

1) Human Nature

2) Magic

3) Weather

4) Fire?

5) ?

6) ?

I think this is where my confusion came in.

[janjan]

Next week's Spitball of Survival:

Will die in the Great War because their arc is done: Theon, Beric, Jorah.

Will not die in the Great War because their arc is still in mid-air: All the central characters (Eggy, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya), plus Hound and Gendry.

Will not die because they are survivors: Sam & Gilly, Ser Davos, Bron.

The Known Unknowns:

• Bran. The Archmaester of the Citadel said that the books preserve memory, but Sam himself said they don't really. Lore is memory, and Bran is lore. But hey, who preserved Western civilization between the fall of Rome and the Renaissance? Monks scribbling, recopying, preserving. Many peoples have survived without a TER, although it's handy to have one when everyone who knows about Jon's birth is dead, and he's also good at forward reconnaissance.
• NK. Is it too much to hope that evil and death can be eradicated? Yeah, probably.
• Tormund. After the giant milk slurp [insert the hyphen where you will], I was ready to kill him myself. But then who will be leader of the Free Folk?
• Jaime and Brienne. I'm stumped.

[DirewolfPup]

2 minutes ago, janjan said:

• Jaime and Brienne. I'm stumped.

Like his arm.

[janjan]

2 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

Like his arm. 

< spills grog >

[gingerella]

@DirewolfPup, this made me chuckle:

5 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

I have a deep, dark secret to admit. Up until gingerella's posts above, I could not wrap my head around the rubics cube theory. What are the six sides again?

1) Human Nature

2) Magic

3) Weather

4) Fire?

5) ?

6) ?

I think this is where my confusion came in.

It also made me realize that all this time, my Rubiks Cube Theory is missing two more sides! I have always spoken of four sides:

1. Human Nature (relationships, etc.)

2. Environment (weather)

3. Religion

4. Magic

But there needs to be two more sides for it to be a Rubiks Cube, so what are the other two sides do you think? It would be easy to just say:

5. Fire

6. Ice

But I'm not sure about those because in the case of A Show, Fire comes from both religion (LoL) and Magic (fire breathing dragons). And Ice comes from the Environment (weather). So what would the other two sides be? (*I'm okay with two sides being empty if need be! They can house our Unsullied House logo, whatever that might be!).

On 8/21/2017 at 5:59 AM, ChocButterfly said:

Edit to add: Speaking about trees and Bran, he is really going to turn into one, no? I mean, Tree Eyed Raven had roots and everything, he couldn't walk. Which makes me think, that he might be Bran in a future? Like, is not that Bran took his position, but that he was Bran all along?? And Bran already cannot walk, which would make sense for the former Tree Eyed Raveen to be attached to a tree. So, is the Tree at Winterfell the one Bran will be joining?

I found this in last season's posts, and it made me sit up straight and go WHOA @ChocButterfly! This makes so much sense right now - that the TER Bran met was himself but either from the past or the future, it's not clear to me which makes more sense - past or future. This also makes more sense as to why Bran harbors no ill will towards Jaime, we already talked here about how Bran must have known now that this is his calling and being crippled was part of it all, because you can't be expected to suddenly sit underneath a tree and become the tree if you can walk and run. It's so much more sensible if one cannot walk at all. So maybe the TER Root Dude was Bran in the future, trying to pass on all his knowledge to Bran in time for him to fight the NK? But that doesn't quite add up if the TER is the repository of memory of Men, does it? He'd be Bran from the past...my mind is spinning on this...

[janjan]

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

I’m getting the feeling that Arya might be the one to take out the NK if she can kill a WW and steal his ‘face’ to get close enough to the NK to kill him.

Hmmm. Her special tool might be a dragon glass projectile with a detachable knife on it for removing faces.

13 minutes ago, gingerella said:

This makes so much sense right now - that the TER Bran met was himself but either from the past or the future, it's not clear to me which makes more sense - past or future.

Wow, Ginge and Choco-Butt! This might be *IT*, even though it has my head is spinning in a time warp.

[DirewolfPup]

We've seen three WW killed so far in the series (Sam, Jon at Hardhome, group north of the wall last season). Every time they're killed, they shatter and blow away in the wind. That doesn't bode well for Arya taking one of their faces. Howeva, she could take a face from a wight? Don't see why not. They only die when pierced with dragon glass, Valerian steel or set aflame. She'd have to take one of their faces while they're still "alive" or mobile. That's a funny image. Rando wight with no face wandering about bumping into walls.

[janjan]

6 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

Rando wight with no face wandering about bumping into walls.

Stop it, Pup! I'm running out of grog to spill.

[DirewolfPup]

Just to be clear, is everyone anti- Team Dany now? A Show is certainly making it seem that way.

[janjan]

38 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

Just to be clear, is everyone anti- Team Dany now? A Show is certainly making it seem that way.

Me! Me! She's turned into a meanie, what with dumping Dario and burning Tarlys and all. Of course, she might have been a meanie all along. I've had my doubts ever since her look of elation when Drogo gold-plated her brother. She talks in the abstract about breaking the wheel and serving the common folk, etc., but her in-person actions have been worrisome.

She tried to go all cuddly sisterhood with Sansa, but when Sansa said, "What about the North?", she pulled her hand away. Because of the interruption of Theon's arrival, we can only guess what Dany was about to say (and we can guess),

The Northeners certainly gave her the stink eye, although they also did that to sweet innocent Missandre of Naarth. So they were probably never gonna be on Team Dany anyway.

So far, Jon is defending her as just doing what rulers have to do. Maybe he will change his mind when they have a confrontation over who's the legitimate ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. (Or it is Six Kingdoms now? Go, Sansa!) Or maybe Dany will get killed by NK so Jon can hang onto his illusions.

[Pallas]

On 4/19/2019 at 9:27 PM, gingerella said:

I remember how shocked we all were back in S01 when Ned got beheaded, we all thought he was the main character and suddenly A Show killed off our beloved Ned Stark! WTF? How would this story move forward without him?

But no, ginge: we Unsullied had Ned's death pegged even before his capture -- around episode 6 of the first season. Our first death pool started soon after, featured Ned, and was not about the "if" but the "when and how."  I recalled how very early in Dune, the Reverend Mother was asked by Duke Leto's teenage son Paul what she saw for Leto's future and replied, "For the father...nothing."  White Stumbler handicapped the contingencies and posted a hilarious betting sheet, that we referred to and updated, week by week.  

In the days before episode 8, though, we were partially thrown off the scent by a preview (some watched previews) that showed a cloaked figure visiting Ned in his cell, and by the episode's name: The Pointy End. But we still hedged our bets, despite our hopes. And in the week before Baelor, we let loose. Gallows humor and mock-specs abounded. Still, as I recall, no one called it: a public beheading, ordered by Joffrey against all advice and prior agreement, using Ned's own sword. Still, when it happened, we could only watch. 

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

Just to be clear, is everyone anti- Team Dany now? A Show is certainly making it seem that way.

It isn't that I'm anti-Dany - I've always liked her, and have rooted for her throughout...but over the years her weaknesses, as a ruler, have been laid every bit as clear as her strengths. As a conqueror, overcoming overwhelming odds to sweep all before her, she has been magnificent. But mighty conquerors don't necessarily make good rulers, and the very qualities that have brought Dany this far are showing signs that they might also eventually be her downfall. It won't necessarily work out like that, there are all kinds of ways this story might pan out in the long run, but there have been more than a few worrying signs.

And as much as I've always liked Dany, there are other characters I like more, if it comes down to it!

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

But no, ginge: we Unsullied had Ned's death pegged even before his capture -- around episode 6 of the first season. 

What prophets you guys were.

I was not with you back in those days - I had no intention of watching A Show at first, and therefore knew nothing about it as sheer indifference had shielded me from all the buzz. But then at some point between seasons one and two, a couple of friends came to stay with me for a week, and among the various shows we watched together were both those we already knew we all liked, and some we were hoping to hook one another on...including GoT. They had both already seen it, but wouldn't tell me anything, just sat there watching my reactions. My Unsulliedness absolutely started there and then, all their fault! We ended up marathoning the whole of that first season over the course of the week - and now, 8 seasons later, here I still am.

[Pallas]

Looking at the situation from Dany's point of view, she has shown her good faith time and again since she landed in Westeros. When Jon Snow appeared at Dragonstone at her request, she did not execute, imprison, or punish him when he did not grant her right to rule. She heard him out, along with his champion, Tyrion -- even to the point of sending her Hand to King's Landing to negotiate a meeting with Cersei, whose troops she had just personally demolished from the back of her favorite dragon.   

She believed Jon Snow's fantastical story and suspended her campaign against Cersei; she allowed Jon -- knee still unbent -- to return to the North, along with her knight, to gather proof. She answered Jon's SOS, rescued his search party, and watched one of her children die in flames for them. The mission complete, she still waited to leave the hateful place and mourn until Jon appeared.

She risked herself and her entire command team by taking a meeting with the Mad Queen, purely to sue for a truce and suggest they join armies to fight a greater foe. But Jon Snow could not tell a lie to a liar, and everything that came before seemed to have come to nothing -- until Dany permitted her Hand to play the very bad odds of convincing his sister or seeing her follow her heart.

With her Unsullied, her Dothraki, her advisers and her dragons, Dany turned her back on King's Landing and rode with Jon through the North to his home at Winterfell. The Northerners did their part in proving the naivete or deceit of Illyrio (and by extension, Varys) about how the returning Targaryens would be welcomed. Jon's family and bannermen opened the gates but shorted the sheets. And from there, everything went downhill. 

Her hostess hated on her from about a foot above her. Her children hated the food. And every time she got anywhere near, her boyfriend acted like she was asking him to sit down and make plans with her for Valentine's Day. In the hours before she would likely die, still uncrowned, in this most foreign place, she finally found him in a crypt, ancestor-worshiping another woman. And that's when he told her, "It's not you, it's me: the true ruler of the Seven Kingdoms." 

[janjan]

20 minutes ago, Pallas said:

And that's when he told her, "It's not you, it's me: the true ruler of the Seven Kingdoms." 

Yeah! Go Eggy!

You make a strong case, O Mother of Kitty, but I'm not convinced. Everything you cite could indeed be evidence that Dany is a Good Guy, but those actions can also be seen as her making no-cost bets:  pursuing possible gains with no apparent down side. Why alienate Jon at Dragonstone before she finds out if he could be useful? Why not let Tyrion risk his neck arranging for a truce -- it's his neck, not hers. Why not let Jon and Davos go get a wight -- their loss wouldn't count for much. Losing Jorah would hurt, but he insisted on going. But when she saw that the threat is real, she did join Jon to fight it. Surviving is as much in her interest as his.

The only thing I see that argues against my anti-Dany stance is that she went north to rescue the guys who went beyond the wall. But even that could be seen as something she perceived as possible gain at no cost. She couldn't have foreseen that Viserion would be killed. The dragons had been invincible until then.

But maybe it was all for love, as Sansa fears? Yeah, maybe, although the love angle seems a bit forced. [Thinking meta again: Writers are saying, "We didn't have much time to develop the love thing so just take our word for it. Hey, we gave you a stupid dragon ride for proof."]

We won't really know the answer until we see how she reacts to Jon's claim -- assuming he even makes a claim. He doesn't share her obsession with power, having given it up twice already. I can imagine a scene where she says, "The throne is MINE!!" and he echoes Dana Scully with, "Sure. Fine. Whatever." What a fizzle that would be.

ps - How's the kitty?

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

Her hostess hated on her from about a foot above her. Her children hated the food. And every time she got anywhere near, her boyfriend acted like she was asking him to sit down and make plans with her for Valentine's Day. In the hours before she would likely die, still uncrowned, in this most foreign place, she finally found him in a crypt, ancestor-worshiping another woman. And that's when he told her, "It's not you, it's me: the true ruler of the Seven Kingdoms." 

Bravo @Pallas! That was an excellent recap of Dany's journey thus far in A Show. I particularly liked the part above, because it sums up her quest, which may well be all in vain, which means her entire adult life will have been in vain because her quest to regain a throne that she feels entitled to will never come to be, nor will she see another on that throne if she dies Sunday evening. A Show may be a bitch to horses, but it's a motherfucker to women we like...

I used to really like Dany as a character, because she was so downtrodden and she faced insurmountable odds and just never let anyone get the best of her. She seemed like a true ruler of a kingdom, or should I say queendom (why does such a word not exist I wonder? You'd think Queen Elizabeth I would have created that moniker!). But as others have spitballed above, when pushed into a difficult decision, Dany always seems to revert to her 'bend the knee OR ELSE...', implying she will kill those who get in her way. Diplomacy isn't her strong suit, and she rightly chose to send Tyrion into the crypt because she seems how much she needs his diplomatic skills IF she survives this battle and makes it to a power seat in the future.

I guess with all the shitty power mongers we've seen in A Show, it FEELS like if the good survive, then A Show's heading towards a more democratic, people-powered sort of scenario, so Dany's style of 'rule' rather than 'governance' wouldn't really fit the bill, would it? But Sansa and Jon and Tyrion? They definitely could cobble together a beginning effort that would have less authoritarian rule and more of a democratic governing body, decentralized seats of governing bodies to cater to the unique needs of each of the seven kingdoms of Westeros, or however many there are.

One thing I'm not clear on, does Winter also reach the Iron Islands, and on the other side, does it reach Essos, Pentos, Slavers Bay, Meereen, Qarth, and wherever Meisandre comes from? It's never been clear to me, but it seems odd that such a severe environmental event would only cover Westeros, or the Northern part of Westeros, because have we ever heard anyone in KL talking about past Long Nights? I don't think we have. I think in Old Nan's tale she said King's froze in their castles just the same as peasants, but its not clear to me if we are to assume she meant all the way south to KL and beyond the seas.

ETA: I echo @janjan's above comments as well, it's been in Dany's best interest to play nice to get herself closer and closer to the Iron Throne, but now that it's so close she can taste it, assuming she survives the battle, what's next? After reading the recent posts above, I'm thinking she might indeed survive because otherwise we wont see her and Jon's tete a tete over who's the rightful heir to the throne...though that said, the same can be said of Gendry being a rightful heir of Robert. Is there a way he's not a bastard?

Edited April 25, 2019 by gingerella

[Llywela]

I do agree with you, @Pallas, Dany has done great things and has proved herself a strong ally in the fight against the Army of the Dead. I'm just not entirely convinced she's the ruler post-war Westeros is going to need - or that she is capable, in the end, of becoming the sort of ruler post-war Westeros is going to need. What she wants, at the end of the day, is to re-create the kingdom her father had, exactly as it was - which will put her at odds with some of her greatest allies, who want nothing of the sort. Is she capable of compromise, where her greatest personal ambition is concerned? (Putting it on hold for the sake of something more important is not the same as striking a permanent compromise.) I'm not convinced she is. I hope she proves me wrong!

Watching the gang make plans for the coming battle has got me wondering how the survivors are going to handle Cersei, when they pick up the pieces to find themselves facing that not-so-little problem. I mean, their armies are going to be decimated, no question about that, while Cersei's will be fresh and are likely to outnumber them tremendously (although I'm still not entirely sure how she is paying for it - I thought the Iron Bank was more cautious than that!). A full frontal assault would seem doomed to defeat, so I wonder if they might try a similar gambit to what is planned for the Night King (and a similar gambit to what Robb pulled with Jaime) - stage a battle as distraction, while sending a small, stealthy assault team in to take out Cersei (Arya could prove handy there). And that makes me wonder what Bronn's part in all this will ultimately be - he's on his way North right now, so will probably arrive in the middle of all the anticipated chaos next week. If he survives, and doesn't turn on his old chums Tyrion and Jaime as ordered, could he prove some kind of ace in the hole? He has access to Cersei, of a sort, after all, having been sent by her on this mission. He could act as a spy in the camp, if he were willing (and still alive)...

Or maybe I shouldn't be thinking that far ahead! Dangerous, I know.

I also can't help wondering what's going on in all the other regions of Westeros right now - you know, all the places that have lost their long-standing feudal overlords and been left without any clear form of local government, in all the upheaval. Is Robyn Arryn still being fostered by one of his bannermen? Who is running the Vale for him in the meantime? What's going on in Dorne, the Riverlands, wherever it was Margery and her people came from, that place the Freys were in charge of, etc? And I realise on writing this that my Westeros geography is atrocious, I can't remember the names of half the places we've seen or heard about over the years, but you get the picture. I know that those kinds of details are not important to the big picture A Show is focusing on, but enquiring minds can't help wondering.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Llywela

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

but those actions can also be seen as her making no-cost bets:  pursuing possible gains with no apparent down side. Why alienate Jon at Dragonstone before she finds out if he could be useful? Why not let Tyrion risk his neck arranging for a truce -- it's his neck, not hers. Why not let Jon and Davos go get a wight -- their loss wouldn't count for much. Losing Jorah would hurt, but he insisted on going.

Littlefinger? Is that you rising from the ashes? Always ask: "What's the worst reason someone could have for doing what they are doing."☺️

1 hour ago, janjan said:

We won't really know the answer until we see how she reacts to Jon's claim -- assuming he even makes a claim. He doesn't share her obsession with power, having given it up twice already.

Yes,  Jon has given up power already AND he actually knew an honourable Targaryen who gave up the throne. Of course that might mean he'd have to re-join the Night's Watch. But it wouldn't be needed, would it, if Life wins the coming battle. Perhaps the Queen's Guard (but not like Jaime). Nah! The wheel can be broken and Jon can emulate Theon and claim Dany would make a better Ruler and he could start a school to train Westrosi children how to be strong yet humble. Embrace knowing nothing!

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

the same can be said of Gendry being a rightful heir of Robert. Is there a way he's not a bastard?

I don't think he has a chance of not being a bastard - but bigger twists have happened. However, his claim would be to a short reign (that led to war) vs one that had survived for generations (until the inbreeding resulted in THE LAST STRAW!! Dammit.) No matter how I look at Gendrey's chances it leads to, at best, a bloody war and a short reign OR just a bloody war and lots more death.

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

What she wants, at the end of the day, is to re-create the kingdom her father had, exactly as it was - which will put her at odds with some of her greatest allies, who want nothing of the sort. Is she capable of compromise, where her greatest personal ambition is concerned?

Yes, absolute Rule is all she ever knew. From Viserys. From Drogo. Even in the places where there were city states instead of countries? There was some form of absolute Ruler (even Qarth had a select few who made all the decisions). But she has been learning over her story arc. Who knows? Perhaps she will recognize that Jon - however reluctant - would be the better ruler between them.

Then SHE could be the one to start a school ... nooo... She could refurbish the Dragon Arena and call it Grimm's Funhouse. And good little children would get a ride on her dragons... and bad little children would become their dinner!  She could fully express both her inner impulses. Win-Win. (wink face)

[WhiteStumbler]

Dany could become Queen and sit on the Iron Throne, follow up on her promise to "break the wheel" by allowing each individual kingdom of the 7K to become independent, and fly off to Essos to rule over the city states around the Bay of Dragons. A long shot, granted, but there is an army of the dead marching thru Westeros, so long shots are paying off just now.

Speaking of long shots, I think there is a chance, just a chance, that we lose only a couple main characters (and a few minor characters) this Sunday. In every other "big battle scene", what characters have we lost in the end? Davos' son at the Battle of the Blackwater, Pyp, Grenn, and Ygritte at the Battle of Castle Black, some recently-introduced characters at Hardhome, Rickon, Wun Wun, Lord Umber, and that Bolton asshat at Battle of the Bastards, and... ?

Other than Ygritte and Ramsay, it is hard to make the argument that any of them were more than a pretty minor character (though Wun Wun's "Snow" was a pretty awesome line, and Grenn's recitation of the NW vows as a freaking GIANT was coming down the tunnel under The Wall still gave me chills on re-watch). So maybe just a few folks die. A little lite death. Perhaps the writers were consciously screwing with our expectation, such as when "narrative arcs" are finished or when characters plan for their retirement OUT LOUD before a dangerous assignment, that there are certain signals that TV uses to foreshadow the imminent demise of a character?

I am certainly not optimistic that this is the direction A Show is going to go ("haha, got you all worried for [mostly] nothing! PSYCH!"), and I feel like I am grasping at straws, but when straws are all you have, time for some straw soup.

(WhiteStumbler slurps down straw soup like Tormund drinking whatever was in his horn)