Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[DirewolfPup]

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

Spitball Wall brethren, I need some moral support. I find myself getting anxious about this weeks battle episode because I.Cannot.Lose.Jon.Snow.  Seriously, I don't think I can continue to watch this show if Ramsey lives. I just can't do it anymore, and its making my brain hurt. Am I the only one feeling this way?

This season has been the most "feel-good" since Season 1 episodes 1-8.  If this story has any shot at all of ending the series on a happy-ish note, we're going to loose someone or someones in the next two episodes. Of characters that are good, we lost Hodor, Summer, Shaggydog, Blackfish, Osha, and Dornish people. Hodor aside, these are some pretty minor characters. We haven't lost any major characters either, good or bad. I would maybe count Hodor, Thorne, and faceless no-name girl. Maybe. 

Basically, I think we are overdue for a major death or deaths. Something bad is going to happen.

If I were a betting person (I'm not), I would say that from the Winterfell battle, WonOne the giant is most likely to die. Of Mereen people, Greyworm. Of King's Landing, Tommen. Of Riverlands, Edmure.

[ChocButterfly]

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

Spitball Wall brethren, I need some moral support. I find myself getting anxious about this weeks battle episode because I.Cannot.Lose.Jon.Snow.  Seriously, I don't think I can continue to watch this show if Ramsey lives. I just can't do it anymore, and its making my brain hurt. Am I the only one feeling this way?

I'm with you. As Llywela says, I'm sure Jon won't die, but is the general outcome I'm afraid of and I have a bad feeling about this.... I fear for Sansa getting captured again by Ramsey!!! I fear for the good guys loosing (again!) and Ramsey just solidifying his position in the North (UGH!). I fear for Jon having to run away and hide with only handfull of Wildling left. Heck, at this point I even fear for poor little Lyanna, since we love her so much, and the Lord of Light knows the show cannot allow us to like a character!!

Anyway, I'm still wondering what "rumors" did Cersei refer to. I was sure it was the pigshit, but if it was her who comissioned it, then she'd know.

Also, who do you guys think Varys was going to see in Westeros? I don't think it's the Ironborn, he should know Yara's fleet is already in Essos. Maybe Olynna, but I don't think so, because she may hate the Lannisters, but is in her interest to keep Margeary as queen. She wouldn't support another queen coming to take her place. My take is on the Sand Snakes, since they're the ones who absolutetly HATE the Lannisters and also have a connection to Danarys, since Reagher was married to one of the Martells. I'm sure they'd like another Queen in power, pls there has to be a reason for that whole stupid plot of them! 

But you know, the way Varys and Tyrion were saying goodbye to each other....was very ominous.  I didn't like it one bit. You think the show would be so horrible as to kill Varys??!!

[DirewolfPup]

31 minutes ago, ChocButterfly said:

But you know, the way Varys and Tyrion were saying goodbye to each other....was very ominous.  I didn't like it one bit. You think the show would be so horrible as to kill Varys??!!

A Show better not!! Varys has been my favorite since Season 1 (tied with Sansa)!  I'm actually shocked both of my favorites have survived this long. Now, they'll both die for sure.

In the GoT reality, there's no way Sansa will die. She's too important for keeping the North. Recaptured and tortured and raped, sure. But not killed!

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

there's no way Sansa will die. She's too important for keeping the North. Recaptured and tortured and raped, sure. But not killed!

But Pup, this is what I'm talking about, I cannot stomach another round of let's torture Sansa anymore. I was at my wit's end when they allowed Joff to live as long as they did, but this has been even worse and I cant stand it anymore. It's not good storytelling IMO either. Just repetitive heinous-ness (yes I made up that word I think).

Anyway, I'm okay with Choc's death pool list, except I'd be sad if the Giant - props to you for knowing his name! - died, because he's a cool dude and so far it's just the one giant, right? Last of his kind and all that sort of thing.  I wonder what the backstory is to Tormund Giantsbane's surname.  Were his kin the bane of the giants, and if so why?  I soooo don't want Tormund to die. Just, NO.  If Jon, Sansa, Brienne and Pod make it out alive I'll be okay. I have a bad feeling about Davos right now, because he is brave and will throw himself into the thick of it to help the Stark's re take Winterfell. I don't want to lose Davos either.

[ChocButterfly]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

But Pup, this is what I'm talking about, I cannot stomach another round of let's torture Sansa anymore. I was at my wit's end when they allowed Joff to live as long as they did, but this has been even worse and I cant stand it anymore. It's not good storytelling IMO either. Just repetitive heinous-ness (yes I made up that word I think).

This ^^^^ And this is the problem! Sansa won't die, I'm sure of that. But I'm afraid she'll get caprtured and torutred again by Ramsey! If they intend to that, they might as well kill her. But, even if they loose, I don't think Sansa will be captured again. It'd be too repetitive.

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Anyway, I'm okay with Choc's death pool list, except I'd be sad if the Giant - props to you for knowing his name! -

That wasn't me. No way I'd remember that, I didn't even remember Tormund's last name.

[gingerella]

Sorry Choc, that was Pup!

[janjan]

Betcha Jon will make it to the end, and maybe Ghost. I wouldn't bet on anyone else. I mean the end of the show, not the end of this season. Jon could very well end up hiding in a hole somewhere at the end of this season. But he will emerge triumphant somehow. You heard it here.

From a story-telling point of view, there are lots of teasers afloat that will have to be resolved or else the writers should be fired.. Arya and Dany have to make it back to Westeros -- if they don't, then their whole 6 seasons so far have been beside the point. And Littlefinger has to have one last hurrah -- can't just leave him wasting away in the Eyrie. And Varys is up to something, as are Cersei and Qyburn. A Show has to resolve all that stuff, after which the characters involved could well bite it.

Besides Jon, I vote for Bronn to survive. That for the same reason Odysseus lived -- he's wily and not constrained by the need to be noble.

[DirewolfPup]

I think Varys is gone for the rest of the season. When there's an ominous "ooo what will they do" right before the finale, they disappear until the next season. I'm remembering LF and Olenna chatting in the abandoned brothel (ep 9?). It sounded like they were making big plans to stop the High Sparrow. That petered out and landed with a thud.

Sansa won't get recaptured long enough to be tortured. That story has been done already. Sansa has had a very geographically diverse plot actually. Maybe she'll run off to Dorne and magically not get sunburnt or tan like Mycella.

Now, we haven't seen Ramsey in a long time. Since he killed Osha ep 4 right? This has been a pretty Ramsey-less season. I'm okay with this!

[gingerella]

12 hours ago, janjan said:

From a story-telling point of view, there are lots of teasers afloat that will have to be resolved or else the writers should be fired.. Arya and Dany have to make it back to Westeros -- if they don't, then their whole 6 seasons so far have been beside the point.

You mean this season they both need to make it to Westeros? I don't think that's going to happen at all at this point, not enough time. But I also don't feel their season 6 will have been wasted if they don't. Dany's "destiny" is for me, becoming monotonous, in large part because she seems so sanctimoniously entitled and yes, as others have mentioned, is seeming to be more reflective of her mentally unstable father now, or headed in that direction. I would be fine if she dies to be quite honest. That said, we cannot ignore Bran's vision of that charred Iron Throne room with snow filtering into it from a hole in the roof, IIRC...That has to mean something, and the only thing I can think of - before season 6 - was that Dany had to live long enough to ride her dragons into KL and burn the place to the ground. BUT! Now that flaming pigshit is back on the menu (and milk of the puppy, yo!), I see a way forward where Dany does NOT have to live until the last episode, nor be the one to burn KL to the ground, especially since we are now reminded that "burning KL to the ground" is something Cersei has been muttering about for quite some time now. That scene Bran envisions could easily be the handiwork of Cersei's Night of Flaming Pigshit, coming soon to a Westerosi capital near you...

If LF betrays Sansa again I want him to die an ugly death before this season ends.

gingerella's death wish list for S6/E9&10:

Ramsey & as many of his men as possible, the Umbers dude, the guy who refused Sansa help, Tommen (because let's face it, he's a goner so let's be done with it already), Lancel, Edmure (I know we wont go back there but he's a pussy and I don't like him).  I'd add Cersei to that list and here's why, if she is the cause of Tommen's death, she wont want to live, and quite honestly, her death might free up Jamie to have a storyline that goes in a different direction. Right now he's at Riverrun, but if he learns the love of his life is dead as is his last remaining child, perhaps that could be the catalyst to throw him onto a new path. I know you guys don't think its possible, but I'm talking about a HUGE life altering event that removes his only reason to return to KL. That could free him up to go join Brienne and fight for the North...*ptooey* that was a chunky icky spitball, sorry!

Arya will be lucky to gain passage on board a ship bound for anywhere with her gut twisting wounds...I don't remember that ship's captain saying where his ship was going to, but didn't she say she didn't want to go back to KL? She mentioned what's North of North, and what's East or West of the same, IIRC, so it sounds like she's bound perhaps for Mereen or the Free Cities area perhaps?  I dunno. If Theon is headed to Mereen, then why cant Arya be headed there as well. Both are kin in a way, and I would like to think that Theon owes the Starks a debt after fucking them over so badly post-dead Ned, so perhaps they both land in Mereen or somewhere, make it to Mereen and meet up with Tyrion...I could see Tyrion and Arya being a duo to be reckoned with now. With his brains and savvy, and her brawn and fighting abilities now, they could go places...Could they all coalesce into one giant entity moving towards KL?

One thing I never get is how it never seems to be Winter anyplace below the North...I don't remember convos in KL about past Winters, do you guys?

[ChocButterfly]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

her death might free up Jamie to have a storyline that goes in a different direction. Right now he's at Riverrun, but if he learns the love of his life is dead as is his last remaining child, perhaps that could be the catalyst to throw him onto a new path. I know you guys don't think its possible, but I'm talking about a HUGE life altering event that removes his only reason to return to KL. That could free him up to go join Brienne and fight for the North...*ptooey* that was a chunky icky spitball, sorry!

Ohhh, this actually the only way I could see Jaimie changing for the good (a bit), as he'll have nothing else to be egotistic about. I like your idea!

I'll still love to hate him, though. He pushed a child down a window and wasn't sorry about it!!! Hehe, sorry, I know I keep saying the same thing, over and over, but it's true, I'll never get tired of repeating that. 

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

Arya will be lucky to gain passage on board a ship bound for anywhere with her gut twisting wounds...I don't remember that ship's captain saying where his ship was going to, but didn't she say she didn't want to go back to KL? She mentioned what's North of North, and what's East or West of the same, IIRC, so it sounds like she's bound perhaps for Mereen or the Free Cities area perhaps?  I dunno. If Theon is headed to Mereen, then why cant Arya be headed there as well. Both are kin in a way, and I would like to think that Theon owes the Starks a debt after fucking them over so badly post-dead Ned, so perhaps they both land in Mereen or somewhere, make it to Mereen and meet up with Tyrion...I could see Tyrion and Arya being a duo to be reckoned with now. With his brains and savvy, and her brawn and fighting abilities now, they could go places...Could they all coalesce into one giant entity moving towards KL?

I'm pretty sure it was passage to Westeros Arya demanded from the ship's captain - she definitely commented on him being Westerosi, it was the reason she singled him out. And she told Jaqen in no uncertain terms that a girl is Arya Stark and she is going home, which means Westeros. I think she'll try to get to Castle Black and Jon again, as she originally intended after leaving the Hound.

I've never seen an actual trailer TV for A Show in all six seasons; I'm in the UK and watch online and don't get the kind of TV channels that might air trailers (actually I rarely have the TV on to see any trailers), but tonight I was babysitting my niece and whatever random channel they had on (it was a quiz show, which shouldn't have been a danger kept showing trailers, I had to keep closing my eyes and lalala-ing loudly!

I do not want to think about who might die in ep 9. I don't dare hope for the characters I hate (we've seen blessedly little of Ramsey this season, overall, but what we have seen of him was awful), and I can't let myself hope for the best for the characters I love because it'll jinx them! This season has felt so hopeful overall, I'm scared now it's been lulling us into a false sense of security. So I'll just be wibbling in the corner...

[gingerella]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

I'm pretty sure it was passage to Westeros Arya demanded from the ship's captain - she definitely commented on him being Westerosi, it was the reason she singled him out. And she told Jaqen in no uncertain terms that a girl is Arya Stark and she is going home, which means Westeros. I think she'll try to get to Castle Black and Jon again, as she originally intended after leaving the Hound.

She did tell the Captain that, true. But wasn't it after that, after A Bitch stabbed her, that she asked Lady Crane "what's West of West" or "North of the North" or something like that?  That's why I question whether she's still headed to Westeros...and since my mind is a sieve where A Show is concerned, are the Free Cities and/or Merren, et al considered Westeros too?

ETA: My above Jamie theory...I could also see him finding out Cereei and Tommen are dead and saying 'fuck it all' and killing the Frey idiots because it was their fault that he had to leave Cersei unprotected in KL, then taking his entire Lannister army to Winterfell to help Brienne & Co. defeat Bolton, because that that point, it's him and Uncle Kevan and it seems like Kevan has no real ties to the Lanister army, that's Jamie's domain, so he could re direct them to leave RiverRun to Edmure and just shove off to the North to fight. There would be nothing left for him in KL if Cersei and Tommen bite it, right?

Edited June 18, 2016 by gingerella

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

 since my mind is a sieve where A Show is concerned, are the Free Cities and/or Merren, et al considered Westeros too?

I'm pretty sure they aren't in Westeros, because if they were there would have been a much more almighty stink over Dany declaring herself queen! Also, Tyrion is hiding out there, and he'd also be pursued rather more vigorously if he was within Westerosi borders. Plus, if Dany was already in Westeros, she'd be rampaging left and right trying to conquer the joint, not holed up in a single city like Mereen trying to acquire ships to get to the land she considers her birthright. So no, I'm fairly certain that Slaver's Bay and all the city states around it are on the other continent (Essos?) and a very long way from Westeros.

Arya did express interest in finding out what's west of Westeros, while she was recuperating with Lady Crane. But then Lady Crane was murdered and A Bitch tried again to kill Arya, and it was after that she told Jaqen she was going home. I guess we'll find out soon enough where she ends up!

[DirewolfPup]

Meeren and Braavos are is Esteros. These are very original continent names.

[Pallas]

On 6/16/2016 at 9:32 AM, DirewolfPup said:

If I were a betting person (I'm not), I would say that from the Winterfell battle, WonOne the giant is most likely to die. Of Mereen people, Greyworm. Of King's Landing, Tommen. Of Riverlands, Edmure.

That's a great list, Pup. I'd only add that I think the Stark forces will defeat Ramsay and re-take Winterfell, though probably with a welcome/unwelcome assist from Littlefinger. 

[gingerella]

Something keep gnawing at me about A Show this season and since we only have two epis left I am still left wondering WTF, man?!

Remember when I was saying that the shit was going to hit the fan when/if Davos finds out that Mel burned Shireen alive at the stake? Then at the beginning of this season, either 1 or 2 epis in, they start to talk about it and then get cut off, I think it was when Sansa arrived, at Castle Black but I cannot remember. Anyway, so close yet so far, right? Now I'm thinking, Mel has to probably go to battle with Jon & Co. because I think she's the only one who experienced Ramsey's tricks on the battlefield - wasn't she still there when he rode though Stannis' camp and burnt it to the ground? - so it would be beneficial if she was there now, because she knows the terrain, etc. of how and where Stannis may have made mistakes in camping, etc. outside of Winterfell.  If all this is correct, what happens if Davos finally finds out the truth about Shireen, he'll lose his shit, right? I could see him wanting to kill Mel in his grief and horror because he loved Shireen as a daughter.  And yet...he would know that IF he killed Mel, there would be no more chances to bring Jon Snow back from the dead if he goes down battling the Bolton army. I don't know where exactly I'm going with this, but it just occurred to me that this could be an issue in some way. I mean, a dead Mel means no more resurrections. Then again, aren't the BWoBs somewhere in the vicinity, or are they very far away? I thought they would be closer to the Vale area, and if so, then if LF's Army of the Vale can make it to Winterfell to help Jon & Co. win, then why cant the BWoBs also make it up there, especially if they found out that Mel was there, she's one of them sort of, isn't she?

ETA:

The other thing I was thinking about today is that as much as Walder Frey is a depraved idiot who hates the Starks, if he finds out that his daughter, Walda, and his grandson were brutally killed by dogs, he might send his men to join Jon take back Winterfell. I mean, not like the Frey army's so smart, they are idiots too, and they probably could not leave Riverrun right now, but I just thought about that and wondered what Frey would do if he learned what Ramsey had done. OTOH, he probably wouldn't care as long as he has The Twins and RiverRun because he doesn't seem like family really matters much to him. Put him on the death watch, I would like to see him done in for. Or maybe he ought to get eaten by a zomboni instead.

Edited June 19, 2016 by gingerella

[Pallas]

Great points both, gingerella. I'd forgotten that so far as we know, Davos hasn't heard how Shireen died. And Walder Frey would not look kindly on being taken for a fool by the Boltons, as he'd no doubt see it: dowry paid but daughter and rightful Bolton heir/future arden of the North both killed by Roose's bastard. Torn to shreds. But who's to tell him?  I'm guessing Ramsay may have put out some story about Walda's running off. (Though I can hear Frey now, as portrayed by that wonderful acerbic actor: "How far am I supposed to imagine she could run?")

[Anothermi]

Great spitballs, Ging. I can see Davos' conflict playing itself out in the midst of a life and death battle. Both he and Mel have somehow linked their future with that of Jon Snow. Emotions run high in battle. Could be interesting.

Not sure the BWoB are as near to the North as Littlefinger and the Armies of the Vale. We last saw BWoB closer to the Vale, but when we last saw Littlefinger putting on his "humble" to Sansa he told her his army was garrisoned at Moat Caitlyn (which we visited first in S05 when members of the Ironborn where holed up there and Ramsey sent Reek in to pretend he was Theon and convince them to surrender to Ramsey). With the convergence of Ramsey (from Dreadfort) and the Iron born (from near-enough-to-The-North-to-make-frequent-raids) I think Moat Caitlyn is also in the North, so the armies of the Vale are quite nearby. Not so much the BWoB.

It would be interesting in the extreme if Walder Frey joined any battle in a timely manner - but I'd like to see it. I don't see him as caring much for family but it would actually be a relief to have him be more than a one dimensional baddie.

[gingerella]

Yes, the other thing I just remembered was that If they wind up encamped at the same location as Stannis' army, the stake on which Shireen was burned might still be there and thus an explanation might be required, thus sparking this Davos v. Mel conundrum. Though as much as I loathe Mel in the past, she brought back Jon so I can't her as much, even though, well, Shireen...

Maybe one of the Karstarks or Umbers rides to the Twins in the hopes they all will rally behind the Starks and rid the North of Ramsey Bolton? 

and I still stand by my theory about Jamie, IF Cersei and Tommen bite it tonight, but that would need to be an early in the epi death so he could decide not to go back to KL...

Pallas, I can totally hear Walder Frey saying that! 

Edited June 20, 2016 by gingerella

[Llywela]

I know I'm late, since ep 9 already aired, but just to note, in light of the speculation above, that Walder Frey's army has been too busy ensieging Riverrun just lately to be able to spare any men to send north to Winterfell - and from what we saw of that army when Jaime arrived, it was an undisciplined rabble. So even if he'd been so minded, he wouldn't have been much help. Besides which, even if he did want to revenge the death of his daughter (and I'm not convinced he actually cares about his daughters except as pawns to be exchanged for perks) I can't imagine he'd do it for free, he'd have wanted something in return! And it would have to be a pretty big something to persuade him to switch sides, since he's in the pocket of the Lannisters and hates the Starks on principle because of Robb - even if they had common cause, I can't see him ever agreeing to help them.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Llywela

[gingerella]

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

the other thing I just remembered was that If they wind up encamped at the same location as Stannis' army, the stake on which Shireen was burned might still be there and thus an explanation might be required, thus sparking this Davos v. Mel conundrum. Though as much as I loathe Mel in the past, she brought back Jon so I can't her as much, even though, well, Shireen...

Okay, so my spitballs are often out of left field but I'm feeling pretty good about this one, and I never saw the carved stag coming, until the opening credits where they replayed Davos presenting that stag to Princess Shireen and in that moment I realized what was to come...oy! To continue to spec from the E09 thread, I just don't foresee Davos actually killing Mel, mainly because he now sees that while she was totally off in her visions and implementing what she thought the LoL was telling her last time, this time, with Jon, she was correct AND Davos saw that unfold with his own eyes so it's real to him. It will be interesting to see what unfolds in this storyline. Davos is a man of principle and honor, both of which have been shown to not be very valuable personal assets since Ned lost his head way back when.  But S6 has been a season of tide turning so let's see...perhaps Davos has to learn to accept this horrible realization as part of a larger plan that he has just witnessed unfolding. I mean, Mel did not save this battle, Sansa did that on her own. But Mel did bring back Jon Snow from the dead to lead this battle, that was her calling. I wonder if Mel will take her own life because she feels finally the weight of the deaths she has caused and bringing back one life cannot erase all that guilt.  But then again, I go back to, Mel's gotta live a lot longer because bitch can bring people back from the dead and well, that seems like an extremely useful skill to have given Winter is fucking Coming, like, now!

14 hours ago, Pallas said:

Ladies' Night, at the Battle of the Bastards. Dany, Sansa and Yara carry the day. Dany heeds Tyrion's advice -- unlike her father with Jaime -- leading to a fun meet-and-greet between two Queens (one with dragon,s one with Theon), and a very satisfying centurions' grasp of forearms.

But what I really wanted to explore more in this Spec thread was this notion that so far, A Show has told us in no uncertain terms, that This Is A Man's World. Period, end of story. And we have also been shown time and time again, how men have fucked it all up, leading to this very moment when the very World of Mankind might well be within reach of being wiped out by the Army of the Dead. And so, I cannot help but wonder after "Ladies Night", if A Show's end game is to replace the Rule of Men with the Rule of Women. If history will be replaced with herstory now. If women are the only ones who can save this world and shepherd it into the next Long Summer, if such a thing can happen again. All history monologues seem to begin with "...For a thousand years....insert history of this world here..."  Maybe the next thousand years will be governed by women, in an entirely different way. We have such amazingly strong women in A Show right now, and a variety of ages as well, and interestingly most can be slotted into various roles of The Seven:

Crone: Lady Olenna (a crone who has learned much from life), Mel (when she's not wearing her magic necklace)

Maiden: Sansa, Arya, Lady Lyanna

The Warrior: Dany, Brienne, Yara, Arya (she could be here as well)

The Mother: Cersei, Margery (possibly if she gets knocked up by Tommen, but she was sort of viewed as the Mother of the People before her imprisonment)

Magic: Mel, the Red Witch of Mereen

It seems like the men of A Show are all fighting to retain "what was, and what always will be..." from their historical perspective. But the women seem to be fighting for something entirely different. Yes, Sansa wants to take back Winterfell her rightful home, but I think it's more than that. She has learned from her difficult life experiences, and I would think she would be a different sort of Wardeness of the North, assuming such a position continues, under female rule, which it may not since "rule" is more male and Dany clearly wants to "break the wheel". 

Lady Lyanna represents the next generation of strong female leadership. I physically lurched when I saw this little girl, donning her battle gear, astride her great big white steed, awaiting the beginning of her first battle with the Big Men. A battle in which she gave 62 of her men and understood the importance of standing with those 62 men on the field of battle. That was amazing to me, such a minute moment, yet so incredibly powerful in what she could stand for, if A Show goes in that direction. I should like to see this new character take a more lead role in coming seasons as she feels like she could Be Someone.

Yara and Dany, cautious adversaries, now allies not only in mission but also in girl power awesomeness. Both recognizing in the other, "aHA! Finally, here is a woman just like me!" That centurion's arm grasp, another minute moment that said so much in that one simple gesture. Yes Dany yelps a lot about taking what is hers, but she is heeding Tyrion's détente-like advice now, and tempering herself a bit more, because she realizes that to achieve her endgame, she cannot continue just trying to use brute force, which is very man-like. She is starting to more and more embrace her difference, she is NOT a man, she is a woman and women "fight" differently than men do.

Brienne, the warrior, living and fighting the life of a man, but very much a woman when it all comes down to it. She has shown how a female warrior differs from a man.

And Arya, the girl who could not be No One, has now reclaimed her personhood and is headed back "home". What a wonderful sight  it will be if A Show allows us to see Arya Stark return to Winterfell and be reunited with Sansa and Jon. 

Anyway, all of this is to say, I feel that A Show is setting us up for an end game with women taking over from the men. It seems that's the only way mankind will survive what's coming from the North.

Edited June 20, 2016 by gingerella

[Pallas]

What a wonderful post, gingerella: a song with verses. (Dany, though now infertile, is also The Mother: of Dragons and the oppressed peoples of Essos.) You are surely right that women will make the difference in the conflict with the all-male Walkers. Strong women and dragons: to most of the men of their world, one no less fantastic than the other.  

I still believe that the endgame of the saga is the end of feudal rule, altogether; the image of a dragon melting down the thousand swords of the Iron Throne. The key may be in that exchange between Davos and Thormund, about how they each wound up in Jon Snow's army, after serving in a lost cause. Davos said, "Maybe because we were serving kings." Did he mean kings rather than queens, or kings rather than people?

[gingerella]

I totally forgot about that most excellent conversation between Davos and Tormund. That was one of the nights gem moments too! I love how no matter the intensity of the situation, Davos always is thoughtful and committed, and I love how Tormund always brings the funny - a Wildling comedian in the making..."Goodnight ladies and wildlings, did you hear the one where a Wildling, a White Walker and a Wight walk into a bar..." Seriously though, who would have thought when Jon and Tormund first met - wasn't it in Mance's tent North of the wall? - that they would have teamed up with Davos to be the Three Musketeers of North? I love how A Show makes creates opportunities that make the strangest of bedfellows.

[Anothermi]

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

Anyway, all of this is to say, I feel that A Show is setting us up for an end game with women taking over from the men. It seems that's the only way mankind will survive what's coming from the North.

It sure as Hell is looking like it, but we've spent 6 years being bamboozled by this story so I'm not able to just accept the obvious. This too can/will/must pass.

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

The key may be in that exchange between Davos and Thormund, about how they each wound up in Jon Snow's army, after serving in a lost cause. Davos said, "Maybe because we were serving kings." Did he mean kings rather than queens, or kings rather than people?

Humm. This sounds not too far fetched. It would agree with Dany's vision in the Tower of the Warlock in Qarth. The Red Keep/Iron Throne destroyed and covered in snow.

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Seriously though, who would have thought when Jon and Tormund first met - wasn't it in Mance's tent North of the wall? - that they would have teamed up with Davos to be the Three Musketeers of North?

Hee! I love this.

 

I also loved that it was Tormund who listened at the war planning table and when he saw Jon buy into to Ramsey's game with Rickon whispered "don't!" as if he could will Jon to keep to the plan. And then the next instant he followed the leader he'd committed to despite knowing it was tantamount to suicide.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

I love how no matter the intensity of the situation, Davos always is thoughtful and committed, and I love how Tormund always brings the funny

Such a great description of Davos, and Tormund too: "He's prettier than any of my nieces," he said of Jon, while going about the deadly serious business of trying to convince the Free Folk to leave Hardhome with him.

Another sweet thing about that brief conversation between Davos and Tormund was Davos explaining analogies (re: Stannis's demons), in a "thoughtful and committed" way that asked Tormund to excuse him for not being clear. Davos, the newly literate man, to Tormund, the unlettered. Carrying on Shireen's legacy, just as Shireen herself did by tutoring Gilly. If there's one thing it's clear that GRRM holds dear, it's reading. Reading and teaching, Teaching that meets the student where he or she is.

8 hours ago, Anothermi said:

 

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

Seriously though, who would have thought when Jon and Tormund first met - wasn't it in Mance's tent North of the wall? - that they would have teamed up with Davos to be the Three Musketeers of North?

Hee! I love this.

Yes! Remember exactly two seasons ago, when we all got that chilling thrill at the sight of Jon, Mance and Stannis lined up outside Mance's tent? The two kings are gone, both foolish in the way of kings, and each replaced by his second, his better. A man with the collaborative instincts and pragmatic view required by the times. 

9 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I also loved that it was Tormund who listened at the war planning table and when he saw Jon buy into to Ramsey's game with Rickon whispered "don't!" as if he could will Jon to keep to the plan.

That's such a good point, that it was Tormund who heard what Sansa said -- Tormund who is more accustomed to working with women. (Take note, Brienne of Tarth! Don't write him off as another of those knights who only pretended to desire you, at your father's ball! He's even a man who can speak of love without shame! -- and without meaning, his twin.) 

9 hours ago, Anothermi said:

And then the next instant he followed the leader he'd committed to despite knowing it was tantamount to suicide.

At the risk of stating something blindingly obvious...GRRM also holds loyalty dear. Up to a point, anyway, and that point is very elevated. He sees loyalty as a two-way street: he believes in compacts, in trusts exchanged and sealed. The point where loyalty is permitted to crack is the point where one party betrays the principles on which the trust was founded. 

Jaime's most notorious act was in fact by far his finest -- slaying the king who betrayed his compact with the people. A scared boy against his Mad King, and he won; he answered a greater good than duty, honor or name, and stabbed the fleeing, unarmed asshole in the back. And after that, because perversity-thy-name-is-Jaime-son-of-Tywin, he allowed first Ned, then his father, and then the world to inscribe him as the Kingslayer, rather than risk their not believing him. It seems every character has faced a crisis of loyalty, and what the characters choose to do then marks the key points of the saga, as well as the characters' own fates.

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

Another sweet thing about that brief conversation between Davos and Tormund was Davos explaining analogies (re: Stannis's demons), in a "thoughtful and committed" way that asked Tormund to excuse him for not being clear. Davos, the newly literate man, to Tormund, the unlettered. Carrying on Shireen's legacy, just as Shireen herself did by tutoring Gilly. If there's one thing it's clear that GRRM holds dear, it's reading. Reading and teaching, Teaching that meets the student where he or she is.

Ahhh, yes! Pallas, this was such a lovely way to describe the two men and their learning curves, literally. I had forgotten that Davos, when first we met him, was illiterate and of course now I remember that learning to read was Shireen's gift to him. He is a philosopher (Deep Thoughts, by Davos Seaworth...) despite learning to read at such an advanced age. And he was indeed so kind and caring with Tormund but not rolling his eyes or showing disdain or amazement that Tormund might not be able to read or understand the same vocabulary that men South of the Wall might use. They are, to me, the fuel that will propel Jon et al forward, hopefully to success in the coming battle against what's coming.

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

times. 

12 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I also loved that it was Tormund who listened at the war planning table and when he saw Jon buy into to Ramsey's game with Rickon whispered "don't!" as if he could will Jon to keep to the plan.

That's such a good point, that it was Tormund who heard what Sansa said -- Tormund who is more accustomed to working with women. (Take note, Brienne of Tarth! Don't write him off as another of those knights who only pretended to desire you, at your father's ball! He's even a man who can speak of love without shame! -- and without meaning, his twin.) 

This whole thing above was another of those minute moments of very few words, and yet it was so monumental. I too, was whispering along with Tormund as that scene was unfolding, "Noooo, Jon, don't fall into Ramsey's trap! Rickon is literally dead man walking no matter what, don't play into it and make things worse!"  But alas, Jon has a big heart, and he could never ever allow Rickon to run to his death with Rickon thinking Jon and Sansa didn't care enough to come and try to save him (though I am firmly rooted in the camp that says why the fuck didn't Rickon at least try to zig zag his way to Jon for fucks sake!).

And for Brienne, I could oddly enough see Tormund being capable of loving her in a clear and honest way that Jamie Lannister never could. Jamie is her Tiger Beat cover crush. The bad pretty boy that her parents warned her about. Tormund is the Wildling from the wrong side of town - or Wall is it may be - who would be not only rejected as a mate, but killed on the spot by her kinfolk.  Though ironically, as mentioned before, A Show creates the opportunity for strange bedfellows and I do hope that we see a coupling of Brienne and Tormund because that? Would totally rock!  If A Show is going the way of making rulers obsolete, and creating a world where men and women are equals, and where all men are Free Folk, then I could see this being an end game coupling - a female warrior of a highborn House, together with a leader of the Free Folk.

Speaking of the Free Folk, amongst them we have not see the crazy ass skin head freaks this season, have we? I'd have liked to see them get their Crazy Eyed Savage on with Ramsey. That would have been gold right there. "You think you got crazy eyes, dude, look at these folks..."

[Pallas]

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

Jamie is her Tiger Beat cover crush. The bad pretty boy that her parents warned her about.

Laughing! That assessment of Jaime and Tormund is delicious. I think we need to change Jaime's epithet from Kingslayer to Tigerbeat. 

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

If A Show is going the way of making rulers obsolete, and creating a world where men and women are equals, and where all men are Free Folk,

...I'd bend the knee. Beautifully put.

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

Speaking of the Free Folk, amongst them we have not see the crazy ass skin head freaks this season, have we? I'd have liked to see them get their Crazy Eyed Savage on with Ramsey.

Tormund brought the funny on the head of the head skinhead a few moments after he and Jon disembarked at Hardhome on their errand of mercy. The skinhead said something lewd about Tormund and the pretty Crow, and nothing more after that. His people rolled their eyes and stayed put. Now they're Skinbonis.

[gingerella]

I suspect next week we will see Jon really struggling with Rickon's death, because he will blame himself. He doesn't understand the monster that Ramsey was in the way Sansa does. She already knew that Ramsey would never allow Rickon, the true rightful heir to Winterfell, to live. He'd have to kill him before the battle began to ensure that if he, Ramsey, survived, there would be no contesting the position of rightful Warden of the North. And of course Sansa knew that Ramsey would make it a tormenting and tortuous death. But there is no way that Jon could ever understand the depth of depravity that was Ramsey Bolton. There is nothing Sansa could tell him, that could fully prepare him for Ramsey in person. On the battlefield, Ramsey was about to win with yet another depraved approach, circling in tighter and tighter and killing every moving thing in it's path, even his own men by the hundreds. I think Sansa is going to have to step up and lead in the immediate future, because Jon will be dealing with the trauma of feeling it's his own fault that Rickon died just within his reach...if only he could have galloped faster, gotten there a moment sooner...

Two things that are gnawing at my mind about Rickon and Sansa...As soon as I heard Jon say to bury Rickon in the crypt with Ned, I thoughts, "nooooo, you have to burn the body!"  And when thinking about Sansa, currently Cersei still has it out for her as the conspirator in murdering Joff, doesnt' she?  If so, Sansa wont be safe from Cersei, and Jamie is closeby enough to put another notch on his belt...but again, perhaps he's given marching orders to get Sansa, and he bails if/when Cersei dies because there's no point to it anymore. Why do I keep going back to Jamie chucking it all in?!?

12 minutes ago, Pallas said:

The skinhead said something lewd about Tormund and the pretty Crow, and nothing more after that. His people rolled their eyes and stayed put. Now they're Skinbonis.

Oh yeah, I must have missed that because I closed my eyes and muted a lot of Hardhome! 

[Anothermi]

20 hours ago, Pallas said:

Now they're Skinbonis.

Annnnd it's another score for Pallas, with an able assist by Gingerella!

Sadly, skinbonis immediately brought to mind the flayed men we'd just recently seen adorning the pre-battlefield. And now I'm shuddering at the thought of them - the unburnt ones we've seen where ever a Bolton resides - becoming a variant of skin(d)boni in the Wars.To.Come (another one of those convenient phrases that will appear prophetic if you wait long enough, or for a moment in this world).

On 2016-06-21 at 9:47 AM, Pallas said:

If there's one thing it's clear that GRRM holds dear, it's reading. Reading and teaching, Teaching that meets the student where he or she is.

He has certainly made that obvious since the first season - most strongly through Samwell 'I-read-it-in-a-book' Tarly. But we've also had plenty of portentous references to book-reading though out the show to date. Just off the top of my head:

- Tyrion explaining to Jon why he is never without a book. (use the skills you've got)

- Jorah gives Daenerys books about the history of Westeros as a wedding gift. (books make great wedding gifts)

- Ned is informed of, and then solves the mystery of Jon Arryn's death, via The Ponderous Tome.

- Sam knows what to do with dead bodies after the zomboni attack on Mormont, and he knows about Dragon Glass and what three blasts of the horn means because, say it with me, ... He read it in a book.

- Shireen, as mentioned upthread, teaches Davos to read which makes him waaaay more effective an advisor to Stannis and a somewhat more effective counter-balance to Mel's somewhat self serving visions. ETA: And, again as mentioned upthread, Shireen teaching Gilly which is giving Gilly confidence to survive the prejudices of Westeros.

- The History of the King's Guard becomes a useful exposition tool for young!Ned's meet up with Arthur Dayne: The Sword of the Morning

- The book of the History of Four Kings ("a book that every king should read") that Tyrion gave Joffrey as a wedding present. Main reason to mention it is how it graphically showed what happens to people who disdain reading: Joff shredded the book with his Widow Maker blade... and then died a terrible death (it is known).

OK, I'm running out of the easy ones, but that was fun. I am looking forward to (please, show, don't disappoint me) at least one more important book discovered by Sam next season, or even next episode!

Edited June 22, 2016 by Anothermi
spelling & to add an obvious item

[Pallas]

On 6/21/2016 at 10:33 PM, gingerella said:

And when thinking about Sansa, currently Cersei still has it out for her as the conspirator in murdering Joff, doesnt' she?  If so, Sansa wont be safe from Cersei, and Jamie is closeby enough to put another notch on his belt...but again, perhaps he's given marching orders to get Sansa, and he bails if/when Cersei dies because there's no point to it anymore. Why do I keep going back to Jamie chucking it all in?!?

I think Sansa's safe from Jaime. It was he who gave Brienne her armor and Oathkeeper, and sent her to find Sansa and keep her safe from Cersei: the fulfillment of his vow to Catelyn. And that was back when Cersei was the only queen in King's Landing. Now Jaime's taking his orders from Tommen and Kevan, neither of whom seem to give much thought to Joffrey or his suspected killers. 

Then again...a Winterfell retaken by the Starks from the Boltons is exactly the same scenario as a Riverrun re-taken by the Tullys from the Freys. Worse, perhaps (to the Lannisters), since the lord of Winterfell is Warden of the North. So for that reason -- and because Jaime and Brienne need to come to blows -- the Crown may order him to Winterfell. A tactic Cersei, as it happens, once counseled Joffrey not to try...

Oh. Will Jaime be killed by Brienne, with Oath Keeper, at Winterfell, perhaps in the tower?  

[gingerella]

You know, I hadn't thought of Jamie dying that way but now that you mention it, I can totally see that happening. It would be sweet revenge for Brienne to take out Jamie at Winterfell, and do so with Ned's sword. 

Sorts kinda possibly related to that...I was re watching that scene where they re take Winterfell, and it looks like the shield that Jon picks up to deflect Ramsey's arrows has a bear on it, though I'm not certain. Maybe be someone else can take a look and see if that's what that Sigil is. If it is a bear, then it means that one of Lady Lyanna's 62 men made it all the way into Winterfell at the end, and it was because of her men that Jon was able to grab that shield and take out Ramsey. So...I wonder if Jon would notice that and as a gesture of the goodwill and faith that House Stark and House Mormont continue to share, he might offer to return Lord Commander Mormont's sword to her, to its rightful ancestral home?  Which in turn would likely prompt Brienne to return Oathkeeper to Jon, and it would be awesomeness if Jon killed Jamie with Oathkeeper (though I don't want Jamie to die because I really like that actor a lot).

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

Oh. Will Jaime be killed by Brienne, with Oath Keeper, at Winterfell, perhaps in the tower?

Hee! I haven't got a Clue! But I certainly have the same train of thought. I spat this back in E08 No One:

Quote

6-Brienne & Jaime re-unite... and still have that mutual respect bond - or what ever it is - and it appeared that she cares more deeply about it than he does. They could be destined to kill each other. Although: Not Today.

The "how" you suggest may come to pass. But somehow, I'd like to see Brienne and Jaime fighting zombonis and WW together. Brienne will survive because she's got the Valerian Steel! Jaime gave her. But she'd try her best to save Jaime (unsuccessfully) from being overwhelmed by zomboni hordes. That would tick all my boxes.

Yikes! I'm getting a little carried away with all the audience pleasing moments this season has provided. I need to cool down and get a grip.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

anothermi, do you happen to remember if Jon's sword is also made from Valerian steel? I can't remember? Actually, can we do a Valerian sword inventory please? 

[Llywela]

38 minutes ago, gingerella said:

anothermi, do you happen to remember if Jon's sword is also made from Valerian steel? I can't remember? Actually, can we do a Valerian sword inventory please? 

I'm not sure Jaime's is - but there were two swords made out of Ned's. One was given to Brienne and the other to Joffrey. So the question is: who now wields Joffrey's Valerian steel sword?

Edited June 23, 2016 by Llywela

[Anothermi]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

I was re watching that scene where they re take Winterfell, and it looks like the shield that Jon picks up to deflect Ramsey's arrows has a bear on it, though I'm not certain.

I went back and looked. It did look kinda like a bear. I had to go back to when Jon, Sansa and Davos went to petition for help from Lady Mormont (I'd forgotten what a gorgeous location that was!). There was a sigil over the door of the hall they met in. It was a standing bear. That's what confused me about the shield Jon used. He held it sideways. But they were the same colour, I think you are right about that.

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

anothermi, do you happen to remember if Jon's sword is also made from Valerian steel? I can't remember? Actually, can we do a Valerian sword inventory please? 

Yeah. That could take a bit of work.

There's Knifey, of course, but who the hell knows where that sly dog has got to. IIRC Knifey was the 1st mention of Valerian Steel. It was last seen (via Milk Carton Campaign Westeros) on the desk of then Hand of the King, Eddard Stark. Since then Tyrion, Tywin and, I'm guessing, Kevan Lannister have occupied that position and its rooms. Littlefinger was in the same room as Knifey when Ned declined his less-than-honorable offer of support. Could be anywhere.

Ned's great sword - which is now Oathkeeper and Widow Maker (I think that's what Joffrey named it). I don't think we knew it was Valerian steel until Tywin melted it down. Arthur Dayne's two swords were Valerian steel, but unless my spitball is correct - that Ned melted them down to make HIS great sword - we don't know where they are.

Oathkeeper, as we know, is with Brienne. So that's one (1) near-ish to the WW threat.

Widow Maker? the last time I remember seeing it was on top of Joffrey's corpse -  laid out in the Sept. I assumed it was buried with him, but maybe it was given to Tommen?

Jon's Sword from Lord Commander Mormont - yes, it was confirmed to be of Valerian Steel. That is how he killed the WW at Hardhome, and how we first learned that not just Dragon Glass could kill them. That's number two (2).

The Tarly Ancestral Sword - now with Sam as of this season. I'm pretty sure we all thought Sam would get it somehow - once Asshole Tarly said it was Valerian Steel. Could end up being number three (3).

That's as many as I can think of right now. Not many near enough to be of use against the WW.

It's possible that Barriston Selmy had one, but he died over in Mireen.

Llywela, I don't think the one Jaime has is Valerian Steel. Tywin made a big deal out of the one he gave Jaime made from Ned's sword being Valerian Steel, and Jaime didn't not counter with "big deal, so's my regular one."

Edited June 23, 2016 by Anothermi

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

Llywela, I don't think the one Jaime has is Valerian Steel. Tywin made a big deal out of the one he gave Jaime made from Ned's sword being Valerian Steel, and Jaime didn't not counter with "big deal, so's my regular one."

That's what I figured, but I didn't like to be too definite since I couldn't actually say for sure!

[janjan]

On a whole 'nother topic: Sansa is Lady Bolton, and now the last of the Boltons. What's she gonna do with the Dreadfort? (A friend of mine suggested converting it to condos.) Maybe she should just burn the place down. It is amazing how easily stone castles burn, vid. Harrenhall and the vision of the KL throne room.

My spec that Dany and Arya must get their butts back to Westeros meant before the end of the series, not necessarily this season. Yet I predict that at least one of them will arrive as the last scene of the season this week.

[gingerella]

36 minutes ago, janjan said:

at least one of them will arrive as the last scene of the season this week.

Janjan, do you remember the very last scene last season? Wasn't it of Arya sailing away on a Braavosi ship (after she uttered those magical words we shall never forget, "Valor Margolis"!), she was at the bow of the boat looking so hopeful? I wouldn't be surprised if the very last shot of this season is Arya leaving Braavos, looking not really hopeful because I think she knows hope is for losers, but looking nervous, wistful, but on a boat headed to Westeros. Will she dock in KL? I would doubt it because she'd be recognized there, but...depending on where she docks and makes land in Westeros, I hope she bumps into Gendry because what was the point of us knowing Gendry has Baratheon bloodlines if only for him to escape Mel's plan to blood let him?  He's gotta come back some way, and I think Arya may be the only main player still on the canvas who can ID him right now. Clearly he would not go back to KL for obvious reasons, so I am spitballing here and now that these two bump into each other next season.

[Pallas]

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

So...I wonder if Jon would notice that and as a gesture of the goodwill and faith that House Stark and House Mormont continue to share, he might offer to return Lord Commander Mormont's sword to her, to its rightful ancestral home?  Which in turn would likely prompt Brienne to return Oathkeeper to Jon, and it would be awesomeness if Jon killed Jamie with Oathkeeper (though I don't want Jamie to die because I really like that actor a lot).

What a great passle of specs, gingerella!  I love the idea of Jon's returning the Mormont sword -- something he could imagine his late Lord Commander would find touching and meet. Though perhaps he might ask Lady Lyanna to allow him to wield it in her name during the War to Come?  

Did Jaime tell Brienne about Oathkeeper's origins?  I'm not sure, though I tend to think he didn't. Maybe I'll look for that scene tonight. And I'm with you about not wanting Jaime dead anytime soon, yet...I think most of us are sensing that Tommen and Cersei are both doomed, and with them gone, Jaime will have nowhere else to go -- in keeping with the bad choices he's strung together all his life, and embraced more tightly in recent months. He does feel it's too late, because he's made it so. 

19 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Hee! I haven't got a Clue! But I certainly have the same train of thought. I spat this back in E08 No One:

Quote

6-Brienne & Jaime re-unite... and still have that mutual respect bond - or what ever it is - and it appeared that she cares more deeply about it than he does. They could be destined to kill each other. Although: Not Today.

Hee indeed, Anothermi, and hail! Your Jaime-Brienne Deathmatch Spec is absolutely First of Its Name. I'd never imagined it would come to that, and I still think Brienne will survive. But between your spec; Choc Butterfly's bracing reminders; gingerella's depiction of Tigerbeat Lannister and her suggestion that Jaime would be sent to Winterfell, and the memory of Jaime's stricken face when he said to Brienne, "Let's hope it doesn't come to that..." 

Yeah, it totally comes to that, and that will be that for Jaime. If he's ordered from Riverrun to Winterfell, and hears nothing from Cersei, he'll understand that his uncle the Hand and his son the King would be content if he never returned to King's Landing...and that Cersei feels the same. She too no longer requires his services. For whatever reason, she meant it when she told him, after he returned the first time, "It's too late."  If Jaime undertakes a mission to attack Winterfell, he'll know how it will come out. That's why he'll do it.

Fantastic inventory of the Valyrian steel armory, Anothermi! I'd like to think that Tywin would never waste a Valyrian steel blade on a corpse, especially Joffrey's. He probably did palm it in the crypt while Cersei's back was turned and, like the indulgent grandfather he never was, give Tommen a merry mimed "Shh!" and slip it, hilt first, to the boy...

[gingerella]

Does Tyrion have a sword or knife in his possession? I don't remember? I think Varys wears one on his belt but does Tyrion?  He fought with something in the Battle of Flaming Pigshit...I wonder what sword that was?  I also cannot remember if Tyrion took any weaponry from Tywin's room after his offed him on the shitter.

[Anothermi]

Well, for sure he took Joffrey's cross-bow, but I don't think he kept it with him. It would be cumbersome to someone "on the lam" like Tyrion was. Even if he did bring, say Knifey - which, according to Littlefinger, was his in the first place - he got captured by Jorah and then by the slavers... so any weapon he might have had would have, um, acquired a new owner.

[Anothermi]

4 hours ago, janjan said:

On a whole 'nother topic: Sansa is Lady Bolton, and now the last of the Boltons. What's she gonna do with the Dreadfort? (A friend of mine suggested converting it to condos.) Maybe she should just burn the place down. It is amazing how easily stone castles burn, vid. Harrenhall and the vision of the KL throne room.

I'd like to think that Lady Stark - Wardess of the North, would in a daring and controversial move, give the Dreadfort to....... Theon..... to do with as he wished. As a thank you to someone who she grew up with and who she shared the horrors of belonging to Ramsay Bolton with. Those two have a bond that transcends family. Of course, the new Theon would most likely opt to stay at the side of his sister - she'd need him. But it would be a gesture, along the lines of the one's suggested by Gingerella, of thoughtfulness and respect, not practicality.

ETA: I like Pallas' game-of-Clue approach to who kills who, where and with what. I never would have suspected Tywin to by murdered by Tyrion, in the WC, with the cross-bow but I could have suspected Littlefinger, in throne room, with the Moon Door.

Last we heard from Arya, she still had three names on her Kill List. Cersei, Gregore Clagane and Walder Frey. Now to figure out the best combination of where and with what she will kill them.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Anothermi

[janjan]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

I am spitballing here and now that these two [Arya and Gendry] bump into each other next season.

I'm shippin'!!

[gingerella]

13 minutes ago, janjan said:

I'm shippin'!!

Can we add Brienne and Tormund to the shippin' list...;)

[Llywela]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

Janjan, do you remember the very last scene last season? Wasn't it of Arya sailing away on a Braavosi ship (after she uttered those magical words we shall never forget, "Valor Margolis"!), she was at the bow of the boat looking so hopeful?

It was the season before, at least - how time flies. Last season saw Arya doing her time as an apprentice at the House of Black and White (or white and black, or oreo, or whatever), culminating in her stealing a face to off a name on her list, and have her sight taken as punishment as her final shot of the season.

I'm still predicting that the final shot of this season will be Dany setting sail for Westeros with her accumulated armada and armies. Either that or White Walkers reaching the Wall - except that we no longer have Jon at the Wall to carry the plot there, and Edd has never carried the story on his own, so perhaps not. My money is on Dany.

[Pallas]

17 hours ago, janjan said:

Sansa is Lady Bolton, and now the last of the Boltons. What's she gonna do with the Dreadfort?

I think that as seat of the deposed Lord Bolton, Dreadfort is now forfeit to those who deposed him: the New Northern Alliance. Led by a bastard Watch-defector; a "wildling;" a knighted smuggler from distant shores; the ten-year-old Lady of a House that can best be described as "cosy," "vintage" or "a real fix 'er upper!;" the deposed Lord's widow, and of course, Petyr Baelish. Oh, and Robyn Arryn! The only highborn Lord among 'em.  

Agree with Llywela that the season's final shot will be Dany's fleet put out to sea, with dragons arranged in a wedge above. Maybe with the CGI perspective shifting at the end so that instead of having the dragons fly right at us (as in finales past), we pull back and up to see the dragons and fleet en route to Westeros, in a shot that might even pull back enough to suggest the opening credits.

[gingerella]

I know we here at the Spitball Wall, have often said of late that we suspect that the endgame of A Show is to do away with all rulers, and create a new world, one perhaps with women at the helm, though what that helm looks like without rulers per se, is unclear. I mean, even a world without kings and queens requires some sort of leadership framework within which to survive, right? It cant just be a free for all...even the Free Folk has/has leaders. This prompted me to consider all the players on the canvas right now that we think might be potential leaders:

Dany: She looks more and more like her crazy father, the Mad King. Sure Tyrion has pulled her back from the edge of total destruction, but her natural knee jerk reaction is to assume that she is entitled to the Iron Throne and that mass killing is okay if it gets her to that seat. Not much of a leader, or different, other than she is a woman.

Tyrion: We talk about him being a good leader because he is the most sensible of the bunch and seems to understand the concept of diplomacy, collaboration and compromise. But if he was the King, would he just revert back to his old ways? Because his old ways were whoring and drinking and well, we saw how well that served Robert Baratheon.

Jon: We think of him as honorable, trustworthy, Mr. Do The Right Thing.  But A Show has taught us the hard way, that the Ned's of this world get squashed by the harsh reality they live in. I don't even think Jon would want to be King if he was offered it on a silver platter.  And he's too emotional to be a good King, IMO.

Littlefinger: What can we say about this guy? He's a snake. He is the man who cried direwolf so many times now, that even if he showed A Viewer his true, deepest feelings, we'd never be able to believe it was anything more than another in a river of LF lies. This is a man who would sell his own mother if it gained him power and prestige. Are these traits of a good and noble ruler, open to social change? I think not.

Robyn: A total fucking inbred idiot, nothing more needs to be said. Let's see him fly through that moon roof ASAP and get it over with because this world is no place for an inbred moron.

Jamie: Nope, not even an option. And I think this world is over the Lannisters anyway.

Brienne: She might be a good ruler but she doesn't come with the pedigree required. She is highborn, but not quite high enough. And she is emotional in the way Jon is emotional, and that seems to not be a good quality in this world.

Arya: I think Arya has been damaged in so many ways at this point, that he would not be a good ruler. She is strong, yes. She is a mighty fighter, yes. But I don't see her as a ruler.  I feel like she is so young still, and needs to catch up on familial love that she has been deprived of for the last 6 seasons. She needs to be nurtured not by killers, but by someone who loves her unconditionally. Will that ever happen? I have no idea, but I feel like until she has that she wouldn't be a good ruler.

Bran: Obviously Bran has powers we don't know anything about yet. But I don't know that those powers would warrant him being a good ruler. I think he could be a good Hand, but I just don't see him as a ruler per se.

Sansa: Hmmm, now this one is interesting, isn't it? Of all the people on this list, she would have been the last one I'd have thought had ruler potential...until S6. She has been traded like cattle from man to man, tormented and terrorized by men who by any measure are monsters (Joffs, then Ramsay). She has been treated kindly by Tyrion whilst Joffs terrorized her from the shadows, so she couldn't even really appreciate Tyrion's kindness towards her, IMO. She put faith and trust into LF and he betrayed her by selling her to someone even more monstrous than Joffs was, which was inconceivable because how could anyone be worse than Joffs, and yet...enter Ramsay. She endured unbearable evil at his hand. And even after all this hardship (hardly a good enough word to convey what she's gone through since she boarded that coach to KL all those episodes ago), but she still, even after all that horror, held on to the hope that one day she might be able to get Reek to remember his roots with her and allow Theon to re-emerge and help save them both.  And once that finally happened, she put one foot in front of the other, until she was able be the one to serve Ramsay his final taste of his own medicine, and walk away with a smile for the feeling that she must have been having seeing him finally get what he so richly deserved.  So of all the people currently on the canvas, I can see Sansa more than anyone, being worthy of being a ruler. And yet, I don't think she'd want that role either. Wardeness of the North? Perhaps. But ruler of Westeros? I don't think so. Unless she gets there as spouse of LF, and kills him off just as he finally achieves his life long fantasy...that would be sort of satisfying to A Viewer, though I'd like him dead sooner.

But...what if A Show isn't planning any of that? No redemption, no radical shift or change in the social order, no...nothing. What if A Show is simply going to end with men and WWs battling it out, until one or both have to retreat t their respective corners, and then hibernate and re group until Summer Comes Again. Rinse and repeat. Nothing is learned. Nothing changes. Things continue on as they have for thousands of years...How would you feel if that was the ending of A Show?  I offer this up because we all assume something will change. Lessons must be learned, right? And yet, I see in our current world how very fucked up we are. We say we have changed over hundreds - nee thousands - of years, but we still pollute and denigrate the earth as if it's never going to run out of resources despite there being scientific evidence that we are running out of resources. We promote and elect fucking psychopathic morons to "lead" us, when we can clearly prove and see that they are awful, despicable beings, in some cases complete wastes of carbon and space. We create wars to try to force others to buy into the belief system we think is "the right one", and we do horrible, heinous things to humans and animals in the name of our own desires. Overall, we just make poor-as-shit decisions pretty much all over the place nowadays. So why do we think A Show will end any differently than just 'rinse and repeat' - a starting anew the same cycle that has existed over thousands of years in this world A Show takes place in? Have we ourselves, really learned anything different from back in the Dark Ages? I'm not talking about technological advances because you could include the capacity to kill each other on a massive scale in that category. I have a disturbing feeling that after however many seasons A Show embodies, A Viewer may be left with the same old same old as endgame...because it would be a reflection of the world in which we live today.

Edited June 25, 2016 by gingerella

[Pallas]

See above! I love these questions, gingerella. With only half an hour before the finale (and dinner still ahead), two quick points will have to do. More on all, later.

1) Dany as a leader: I thought she had a very good week last week. She returned home to find that while she was out, Tyrion had pretty unilaterally entered into very long-term and controversial treaties with the opposition -- which then got the jump on Team Stormborn and was on verge of setting Mereen on fire. Very unlike Aegon, Dany not only didn't add Tyrion to the blaze, she even heeded his nervous but cogent counsel. And, presented a united front of four to her enemies (meaning Dany plus three councilors, not three dragons). In the past she has also sought and taken advice from Jorah, Selmy, Missandrei and Grey Worm, even when she didn't like what she was told. She also looked to Tyrion for his advice about the Greyjoy alliance. I don't see her as mad or even autocratic. 

2) From earlier discussion: one reason Jaime and Brienne may not soon come to blows. If Brienne were to kill Jaime now, that would mean that Jaime and Tyrion would never meet again, after Jaime freed him and Tyrion went on to kill their father. In life, that's probably exactly what would happen. But a saga's different -- would the author want to deny his story that encounter?

[Anothermi]

I'm bringing my research post on the "Ponderous Tome of Westerosi Genetics" over here from the pile of things I kept from the old TWoP days. I'm adding related TWoP posts from others on the same topic.

My Post:

However, I previously spent some time attempting to read the pages of the Big Boring Tome of the Genetics of Houses of Westeros from the episode where Ned figures out who Joffrey really is. I've actually forgotten what prompted me to painstakingly squint at the ornate handwriting in freeze frame, but whatever. One thing puzzled me after I'd finished with the exercise. Each "Entry" was named and then ..."born to" (father's name & mother's name - along with who fathered her!) and the last bit appeared to be the birth date of the "Entry" phrased as follows:

Quote

...in the (?)th year after Aegon's landing at (location).

I looked at all three Houses that they showed - Targaryen, Umber & Baratheon. I spent more time making out the Baratheon page because that was what was of interest at the time. All the Baratheon entries had the (location) listed as Storm's End. Aegon, I remembered, was the 1st Targaryen who conquered Westeros with Dragon power, so I assumed that he initially landed at Storm's End (it sounds sufficiently coastal). As this was a momentous occasion, dates in Westeros could have been decreed to be calculated from that time (a la A.D & B.C. for the calendar I'm used to). But when I looked at the other two houses they had a different location listed.
The Targaryen's birth date was listed from Aegon's landing at King's Landing. The Umber's birth date was Aegon's landing at the Last Hearth (as best as I could make it out).

So, you're probably wondering what this has to do with anything by now. The link is the fact that the entries are dated by when Aegon "landed" at each of the Houses' stronghold/Keep/what have you, and that implies that Westeros wasn't conquered in one fell swoop as abelard369 suggests (and I thought that initially as well), but bit by bit. With dragons burning down the towns and cities of skeptic holdouts. (IMHO) To me that strengthens the argument that there used to be many Kings. Add that to the point Pallas made about the place being referred to as The Seven Kingdoms and I think the argument is practically made. But the one other thing I read in that fascinating book was that one of the Baratheon wives was listed as ..."daughter of Arealic the Arrogant, last of the Stormkings". I took that as the last king (of that area) before Ageon "landed" AKA took over. Heh, I guess with dragons as transport he really did "land" as in touched down, as opposed to just arrived.

Since Ageon "landed" at a different location for each House, I doubt Arealic the Arrogant was King of them all, just Storm's End perhaps? - Robert's home turf.

As an interesting side note, the entries gave physical descriptions of boys... but not girls.

Related posts:

"... methinks you have just let us know the definite reason why King's Landing has its name!!! The first King of all the Seven Kingdoms (+ Riverlands) - Aegon Targeryen - LANDED there on his bigass dragon, and henceforth the city bears that name!! (Though did he land there first, and *that's* why it bears his name, or did he just make it his central HQ, and so gave it that name, b/c it was well-located for ruling the other kingdoms?)"

Pallas:

And from anothermi's Maester-like research into the Tome,

Quote

Each "Entry" was named and then ..."born to" (father's name & mother's name - along with who fathered her!)

Like a racehorse. Noted by sire, dam, and "damsire."

Edited July 24, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

Dear Unsullied Brethren of the Spitball Wall,

Based on our review discussions under cover of darkness, I would like to call us all back to the Unsullied Spec thread above, to revisit and review our specs from S6 and where we think A Show will be headed during S7. It is with trepidation that we prepare for the battles to come...Our noble White Cloaks have swept the great unsullied halls, and laid in provisions for the long winter...and so it begins...