Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[gingerella]

5 hours ago, Pallas said:

Except...oh well! Looks like the war's over, as Young Ned put it. During the fight between Young Ned/Young Reed and men vs. Rhaegar's guard, I kept looking to see if there were an exceptionally large combatant. Nope. I know Wyllis could still be standing guard over Lyanna, but then how does he become disabled? Ned is obviously willing to lie to protect Lyanna's secret, but not maim a bright and amiable attendant he grew up with. And I don't, at all, see this story as one where servants go mute with grief at the death of their lords or ladies. 

I hear you on this one Pallas, so now I'm wondering...could Hodor's "hodorness" be the result not of an injury, but rather that he was placed under some sort of magic spell and that it could potentially be broken?  Perhaps Bran warging into Hodor can help to break that spell once Bran is allowed to go up into the tower and see what happens/happened there?  Think about it like this, if you didn't know better - and so far we Unsullied don't know better - you'd obviously not question that Hodor has some sort of mental affliction/deficiency, and in this world they live in, nobody would question a big half giant oaf, they'd just say, "oh yeah, that's Hodor, he's not all there in the head, but nice fellow nonetheless..."  Nobody would ever question his condition. Unless...unless someone found out that he's not deficient at all and he is under a magical spell that needs to be broken. If that were true, Hodor/Wyllis could hold a lot of key information in his head that might help more than just Jon's parentage issue.  I mean, can that be the only thing Hodo would be holding inside his brain?  It seems like an awful lot of build up and intrigue just to hide Jon's parentage, which we've all but figured out on our own anyway.

Edited May 9, 2016 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

So, while we see Root Dude teaching/showing Bran "everything" - which in reality appears to be the Cole's notes (abridged) version of "everything" - we never, ever see him teaching Bran how to use and control his gift. Wouldn't that be a particularly useful skill for the quest to come? Bran will not be spending forever with Root Dude - at least that is what we (Bran) were told. And further, Bran is going to need Meera's protection where ever he ends up going... so will he be autonomous out there or under Root Dude's control? I think autonomous. Root Dude doesn't appear to be casting a spell on Bran - or if he is he's gotten really rusty. So, again, why isn't Root Dude teaching Bran to control his skills?  Like - Where the hell are the rest of my siblings?- Eyes roll back and <boom> he's in a cell with Rickon. 

We keep seeing things about Bran that are special. 1 - He has "the sight" 2 - He can warg, including a human and recently 3 - he can communicate over space/time (which I am going to call it due to lack of knowledge of a fantasy term for what Bran did with Ned).

Now I can see the value in Root Dude's "everything" curriculum. It gives Bran a great advantage knowing both what has happened and what is supposed to happen. But the ability to control what he sees would be an even greater strength. 

Melissandre saw visions (of the future) in fire, but she wasn't able to read them accurately. They were images and open to interpretation. Also of note, she never saw the past.  Jojen, who saw both the past and the future (so he claimed) was physically damaged each time and didn't seem to be able to choose what he saw. This is a common theme with seers going way back to the Greeks (not GoT universe). What's a good Greek drama without a mystic telling the hero exactly what horrors await them in their future, and the hero cherry picking what parts to believe, or how to believe it. Hell, Cersei encountered the same thing with her witch's prophecy about her children. It's a tried and true dramatic device, er, I mean mystic conundrum.

It seems Root Dude has at least learned to control what HE chooses to see, and to guide others to see the same, but he's had a thousand years to learn that skill. I don't think Bran has that much time. But IF Bran is special, he could learn fast and perhaps his ability to make his presence felt (Ned felt it) could allow him to influence the actions of those who he isn't even near (I'm of course thinking of his siblings but that's just the Pollyanna in me coming out).

Now THAT would be a special skill!s

[gingerella]

Wow, how wrong we were about Hodor, eh?  I still have the sads about losing Hodor, he was one of the good guys. It makes me wonder how much havoc Bran will wreak while trying to make sense of his new Three-Eyed Raven skills.  I keep wondering about something with Bran...before he fell out the window, he was a normal boy. It was only after that fall and subsequent permanent injury that he found his seer abilities, yes?  I always had a feeling his seer/warging was in part due to the fact that he could no longer walk and thus was able to sit in stillness - literally - and be a good candidate for learning the ways of the Three-Eyed Raven. But what trips me up here is that nobody could know he would be in that window and that Jamie would push him out and he would fall and become an invalid.  Unless...his fall was predetermined by the Raven? The Raven has been waiting for him for over a thousand years, isn't that what he said?  So it stands to reason that Bran was chosen long before he was even born, and in that case, I think it's somehow possible that his fall was predetermined as well...it's all a bit hazy in my brain, what I'm getting at, but it has far reaching implications that Bran's existence is part of all the history of Men the last 1000 years...especially if he can go back in time and change the course of certain things..which in and of itself could be the key to Men and the Free Folk surviving and winning the war against the WWs, the Night King and the undead army.  Or a I babbling nonsense?

Also, I think that with the Lannister and Tyrell armies in KL together, there might be a weakness left open...I didn't catch if Cersei and Kevan were implying that there was already a Lannister army near Riverrunn awaiting his leadership, or if he is meant to ride there with the Lannister army that is currently in KL and was about to stand up to the Sparrow...If the army is in KL and Jamie takes that army to Riverrunn, it is conceivable that IF Brienne could successfully appeal to Jamie, he might use the Lannister army against Frey, then the Bolton's, no? I am trying to see a way forward where Jon & Co. successfully overthrown the Boltons crew and it seems like even with the Blackfish they are currently outnumbered, particularly if Bolton assumes the Lannisters army will aid him - we have not heard him mention that I don't think, but I think it could be assumed given that the Lannisters awarded the elder Bolton Warden of the North in the first place, so it would be a natural assumption that in times of need Ramsey might think he could call on the Lannister army to help him hold Winterfell.

Speaking of Winterfell, I noticed this season that the white Weirwood tree is blooming its red leaves again, whereas before it was smoldering, wasn't it? I wonder what that means?  Perhaps the trees are awaiting the return of the Starks again?

Lastly, I wonder if there is yet another level of being now that we see that Benjen is alive, technically speaking, but he has a weird green tone, I hope we don't have yet another level between Man and WWs...I have enough to keep remembering what with Men, Free Folk, WWs, wights, the Thenn's, etc.

[Anothermi]

On 2016-05-30 at 3:06 PM, gingerella said:

Or a I babbling nonsense?

This IS the Completely Unspoiled Speculation thread ..... isn't that it's definition? (hee!)

There's a lot of ground you've covered in your post, so I'm going to start with the parts where I can keep my answers relatively short. <<Oh, who am I kidding. I rarely manage that.>>

On 2016-05-30 at 3:06 PM, gingerella said:

Speaking of Winterfell, I noticed this season that the white Weirwood tree is blooming its red leaves again, whereas before it was smoldering, wasn't it? I wonder what that means?  Perhaps the trees are awaiting the return of the Starks again?

So this one is the easiest. After Ramsey sacked Winterfell the opening credits showed Winterfell with smoke rising from it... BUT ... when it moved to the section (enclave?) of Winterfell that contained the infamous tower and the Weirwood tree, we were show the tree still alive and with its red leaves. I was especially relieved to see that. Later, when the Bolton's took possession, the smoke was replaced with the Bolton Sigil, but the tree enclave continued the same. No change has been made since then. Doubtless the trees are awaiting someone's/something's return. (The CHoF has as much - if not more - stake in the existence of those trees as the Starks.)

On 2016-05-30 at 3:06 PM, gingerella said:

Lastly, I wonder if there is yet another level of being now that we see that Benjen is alive, technically speaking, but he has a weird green tone, I hope we don't have yet another level between Man and WWs...I have enough to keep remembering what with Men, Free Folk, WWs, wights, the Thenn's, etc.

Good question. I'd been thinking of the CHoF as something different than Men and the WW. Due to a conversation we had back on TWoP after S02E10 - Valar Morghulis -  where the White Walkers reappeared with their zomboni army (and Sam was seen by the WW but not harmed) I've been seeing them, and now the CHoF as related to plants as much as to humans.

In the TWoP discussion after that episode one poster described them as having treebark-like skin; another poster said that the WW looked like they were made of wood (which would explain why fire was their nemesis) and went on to relate that to the old religion: the tree with a face. I agreed with those observations and even (at one point) suggested that the WW could have just been defending themselves from the humans. Osha made a cryptic reference at one point about the lack of Weirwood trees in the south and that is how the old religion died out and now they don't have protection from the threat to come.

We now know that the key Weirwood tree is located far in the North where the Three-eyed Raven reside(d). In the "seeing" of the creation of the 1st WW we saw that Weirwood tree, the face - which at that point looked very much like Max Von Sydow - with blood-like tears streaming from it's eyes and ... the man about to become the first WW. It's not a stretch that the proximity of THAT tree to the man had an influence on him developing tree/bark like skin. I've also noted that this second iteration of the CHoF (as opposed to the child-looking ones) have a leaf and/or bark-like look to their skin - as does Benjen. That's enough to make me wonder if WW -- CHoF -- and now Benjen -- are not just differing versions of beings that are not Humans (note: zombonies are DEAD humans/ponies, not something else completely). The CHoF made reference to being born long, long before the 1st Men dubbed them the Children. How were they born? We know Dragon Glass played a roll in creating the WW and now we have a more friendly version in Benjen who was also created by Dragon Glass. Were the ChoF themselves created out of Dragon Glass in some way?

I understand now that the Weirwood trees, somehow, were a link to Max Von Sydow-in-the-roots. Perhaps having lots of them increased his power to protect against what the CHoF had inadvertently created (perhaps they thought they were making something more like Benjen?) The "face" on the trunk reminding the believers to keep the faith that "someone" was watching over them - that being Root Dude (MVS). The whole "old" Gods may have come about by those members of the 1st men who saw the war against the CHoF was wrong and perhaps Root-Dude was one of them who agreed to - or had the sight and therefor pretty much had to - become the watcher-in-the-roots. Perhaps the Watchers on the Wall are a slight perversion of that. All religions seem to lose their founding ideologies and create new ones for new times.

Whew! That one almost choked me. What do the rest of you think?

Edited June 7, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

Wow, great post, I must chew on that for a bit though. In the meantime, I offer up this morsel...I still don't get how the CHoF created WWs to protect them - the CHoF - by creating WWs to fight man, and then the WWs turned so evil. It's as if the CHoF used their own magic dragon glass to "create the first WW", then somehow, the WWs themselves took over their own pro/recreation and in doing so changed their raison d'etre, if you will. Sort of like man today creating a robot that is meant to do A,B&C, but that robot somehow takes over it's own control and begins doing what it wants to, sort of like Hal in 2001 A Space Odyssey.

[Anothermi]

That's all I can think of as well, Ging. That things didn't quite go as planned for the CHoF.

They did a good job with Benjen, but he's not got the same powers as the WW (at least from what we've seen so far). And they saved/turned HIM a looooong time ago. Where's he been? Does he need food? What kind? The kind Meera and Hodor were eager to get away from (didn't Meera describe it as moss)? WHERE'S HE BEEN & WHAT HAS HE BEEN DOING?? Hibernating?

Edited June 1, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

Great discussion, gingerella and Anothermi.

I think A Show may have a thing for the weapon that kills its wielder (or maker). The weapon of whatever shape, that turns out to be a boomerang. The Joffrey crossbow that Tyrion used to kill Tywin. The White Walkers who now hunt Children of the Forest and humans of every sort. Ned's sword, used to...sorry, 'nuff said about that...but what about Oathkeeper: does Brienne have another righteous slaying to perform? The Mountain, made by the Lannisters twice over to kill their enemies (and who I swear will end up killing at least one of them). Dragonfire, featuring so prominently in Bran's vision? Maybe Reek on Ramsay: perhaps Theon and Yara are headed not to Mereen but to Winterfell?  Knifie!

And who knows  -- the dragons? Not to turn on Dany, I don't think. But to suffer when she makes a false move? Just as the direwolves have suffered the worst mistakes of each of their Starks? 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Pallas
Late night snack

[Anothermi]

Argh! Well spotted Pallas. There does seem to have been a "thing". Add Roose killed by his bastard creation.

11 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Ned's sword, used to...sorry, 'nuff said about that

Ned's sword! That honkin' huge piece of valerian steel.  Now that we've seen some of his past I'm spitballing that he got it after the encounter with Ser Arthur Dayne. Dayne had two valerian steel swords that he wielded with amazing dexterity. He didn't need them after that. Ned's the type of guy to make those swords into his ginormous one that he used for Warden of the North duties and rituals. "He who passes the sentence must carry it out".

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Add Roose killed by his bastard creation.

^^This times a thousand!^^

[gingerella]

Ugh...A Show has crept deep into my brain...I woke up this morning with a terrible thought...The Night King (that's what we're calling the head WW now yes?) killed Root Dude, right?  So now I'm thinking, if he killed Root Dude, does that mean that Root Dude will become one of the UnDead, or perhaps now an enemy of Bran because he has been vanquished by the king of the WWs, and possibly can now be used in nefarious ways to ruin whatever mission/fate Bran has now taken over as the "new" Three-Eyed Raven?  Oy and Vey! 

We don't know if Root Dude was even an actual Man, or if he was some other 'being', do we?  If he was an actual Man, then it stands that he could become one of the UnDead army but surely, with the knowledge and skills he possesses, the Night King would resurrect him to become some sort of assistant since he could potentially get inside Bran's visions and thus inside Bran's head.  Yes?  No?  Thoughts?  Discuss please...

[Anothermi]

Yes. I wondered about the possibility of both Root Dude and the CHoF becoming zombonis. Currently all the zombonis are just killing machines (that stop when they lose their heads apparently). I didn't think Root Dude would be a good candidate because he was part of the Tree. It's roots had grown through him he said.

But the WW have been growing stronger. They walked right through the fire ring that the CHoF made at the entrance to the base of the Tree. The zombonis didn't, so that ability didn't transfer to them. Come to think of it, I don't recall any WW that was killed by fire, just Dragon Glass and Valerian Steel. Not sure why we assumed the WW could be destroyed by fire. Perhaps we extrapolated that if zombonis could be killed (again) by fire, then so must the WW?

We weren't shown the death of Root Dude-in-the-tree, just the disintegration of into dust or smoke and clothing fragments in the vision. Night King used some kind of ice scimitar in a cross slashing movement. I think we were meant to assume that Root Dude, as a power, was gone. Nothing to take over but his body - like all the other zombonis.

I sure hope so, 'cus your speculation is scary - and would take the story in a really different direction. Not that we haven't wondered about complete annihilation of every character and their petty ambitions as the end game... but NO... A Story has to have some kind of satisfying wrap up doesn't it?

[Pallas]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

Ugh...A Show has crept deep into my brain...I woke up this morning with a terrible thought...The Night King (that's what we're calling the head WW now yes?) killed Root Dude, right? 

I know, A Show has a way of making itself welcome in the subconscious...Yes, I think we can take it as given that the Night King killed the 3-Eyed Raven (Long live the 3-Eyed Raven!). Taking aim, he swung his ice scimitar (TM Anothermi) in a manner we'll recall from Brienne with Oathkeeper, destination Stannis. Cut to the poofing of a film legend. And Benjen confirmed that he was gone.

I don't think the Raven can come back as a zomboni, or a Walker. He seems to have become a supernatural being, and I sense that only mortal mammals can be turned. But could Bran be turned now? Yes, I think so -- only because I sense that he's still in the process of transforming. He has magic, but he isn't magic, yet. I wonder though if when the Raven said that Bran would someday fly, he meant, on his own, rather than on a dragon's back...

Maybe I just don't want to imagine the NIght King, White Walkers and zombonis gaining a new power beyond sheer numbers. But that's my hunch -- the White Walkers can kill magical beings, but not reanimate them. And another hunch: the First Man who became the Night King was a Stark.

[gingerella]

And yet another hunch...I wonder if the Night King, if he got a hold of Bran, could somehow siphon Bran's magical powers and become even more of a menace...

[Anothermi]

On 2016-06-01 at 5:29 PM, Pallas said:

And another hunch: the First Man who became the Night King was a Stark.

Ooooooh. Yes. That's a hunch I can get behind. I've been mulling over who that 1st Man might have been, and the most story-related prospect is a Stark - proud of having descended from the 1st men, defending the North from the WW (& then the Wildlings) for over a thousand years. (eta: that the irony is delicious)

It also gives new life to Melissandre's search for "king's" blood to strengthen her magic. Jon could carry the blood of the Night King.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Jon could carry the blood of the Night King.

Oooo....

[Pallas]

I bet you recall, gingerella, pointing out how at the Hardhome Massacre, the Night King gave Jon a very appraising look. Taking the measure of the broody young human who'd led the resistance, killed a Walker and survived -- and maybe, also, recognizing "blood of my blood." The same with Bran. And Benjen, before them.

[Anothermi]

15 minutes ago, Pallas said:

I bet you recall, gingerella, pointing out how at the Hardhome Massacre, the Night King gave Jon a very appraising look.

I certainly remember that. It jumped to mind as soon as I read your spitball suggesting he was a Stark.

[janjan]

If Night King is a Stark, it would be from long long ago, right? Didn't Old Nan or somebody say that they pop up every 1000 years or so?  If so, he would need to be some sort of magical being to recognize that Jon was "blood of my blood." He clearly recognized something about Jon -- that long look was not incidental.

[Anothermi]

25 minutes ago, janjan said:

If Night King is a Stark, it would be from long long ago, right?

Well, if the CHoF created him (as last episode indicated), yes it would have been a long way back. Root Dude's been part of his Tree for a thousand years or more. The CHoF told Bran they did it because the first men were waging war against them and cutting down the sacred trees so they needed a fighting weapon of their own. <Too bad that worked out so badly for them.>

But I don't doubt that he is now some sort of magical being. He can reanimate dead bodies en mass and add to his kind without the help of the CHoF. He may or may not have been magical before - e.g. Bran has the sight and Dany is fireproof - but I think the CHoF have a lot to answer for regarding his current magical abilities... including being able to recognize "blood of his blood".

[Anothermi]

Damn, the show is such a thought worm...

What Benjen said about being stabbed in the gut by an ice sword and being left for "the Walker's magic to take hold" (he said "left me there to die, to turn" just before that) I've ended up thinking about how all the zombonis are made. We haven't seen that process that I can remember. Do the WW just stick their Ice Swords into any dead thing and a while later it "turns" (like that one ranger they recovered when Benjen's riderless horse came back to Castle Black)? They actually used it to kill Benjen, but the only others I remember seeing the WW kill were 1st & 2nd-to-die from S01E01. They both were decapitated and from what we've seen to date, headless corpses can't turn, nor can headless zombonis continue to follow orders.

Usually it's been the zombonis who we have seen doing the killing. Can anyone remember a WW killing anyone else besides the two I've mentioned? I know Jon had to fight one who came after him at Hardhome. Everyone else got attacked by the zombonies, but Jon was left alone once a WW came for him. Benjen says he was personally stabbed by a WW but was important enough for the ChoF to come out of hiding and save him. Have they done that to others? Are there a bunch of "un-turned" hiding away to join the fight-back brigade when the 3-Eyed-Raven commands? Or was Benjen singled out because of his Stark-ness?

And then there was Bran being able to be "seen" by the Night King after he touched Bran's arm - even though Bran was no longer visible. Even the fact that he could see Bran within a vision. Is that Stark related?

The questions never stop.

[Pallas]

I just re-watched the second half of "Hardhome." From what they showed us, the zombonis kill either by using weapons -- seemingly ordinary weapons -- or by swarming and, well, chowing down. (As they did General Mom, and in "The Door," Summer and the Child of the Forest.) The White Walker officer that Jon killed, wielded an ice-scimitar: he used it to kill the truculent Fenn, whose iron sword broke against it. After gutting the Fenn, the Walker then went straight after Jon, who managed to find his Mormont Valyrian steel sword in time to fend off the ice-scimitar, then use it to smash the Walker into shards.

The Night King observed Jon kill his officer, and that's when he gave Jon the thousand-yard stare. The next time he gazed at Jon was from the dock, as Jon fled in one of the dinghies, and the Night King slowly raised his arms to raise the newly-dead. 

We didn't see the NIght King do anything to the thousands of bodies killed by the zombonis before they reanimated on his command, General Mom among them. So I'm not sure what it means to be killed by an ice-blade instead: what Benjen meant by "the magic taking hold."  Was he in the process of being turned into a zomboni, or into a White Walker? But if White Walker + ice-blade + slain human can = White Walker, what did the Walkers need with Craster's babies?  

And how much of Benjen is Benjen, and how much is not?  Did the Children of the Forest stop the magic marinade entirely, or just slow it down? 

[Anothermi]

9 minutes ago, Pallas said:

But if White Walker + ice-blade + slain human can = White Walker, what did the Walkers need with Craster's babies?  

Or the ritual body-part constructions? or the Ice Fort with the ring of pillars and an altar?

Edited June 3, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

4 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Or the ritual body-part constructions? or the Ice Fort with the ring of pillars and an altar?

I suppose at Hardhome, the Walkers or zomboni drones did have time -- and plenty of materials -- to lay out the ritual construction, before the Night King raised the dead as zombonis. And Benjen probably was laid out near the horse construction north of the Wall, before the Children saved him. (His fellow Watchman -- the one whose body was returned to Castle Black -- was turned, however; the magic kicked in that night.)

We must be right that Craster's infant sons -- and probably, only they -- are transformed into White Walkers. But what's so marvelous about Craster's sons that made them...hold on. What if Craster (and not the Starks) is the direct descendant of the NIght King, and only his truly inbred male progeny can become White Walkers? Which makes baby Sam...well, a sight more interesting than he's proven so far...

[Anothermi]

On 2016-06-02 at 10:30 PM, Pallas said:

Which makes baby Sam...well, a sight more interesting than he's proven so far...

I've been meaning to mention that baby Sam is just so cute. He was stealing the scene when meeting Grandma Tarly. If the other Craster babys have a personality like him, future Walkers could be a very charming bunch of killers.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Anothermi
spelling

[Pallas]

And baby-faced.

You're right, Anothermi, and I apologize, baby Samwell. You did do yeoman duty charming the females of your family. As usual (not only for a Craster boy, but for the boys in most epic stories), the adult males were another story; that just testifies to your inner qualities.

Maybe the value of Craster's get to the Walkers isn't so much the quality of the raw material as the ease of the delivery system. Reliable, renewable, no fierce mothers or fathers to slay first. Not even a zomboni risked in the acquisition. 

But on the question of whether this saga is nihilistic or amoral, I think we can safely say that it comes down strongly against incestuous breeding. Strongly and maybe a bit redundantly? As if this issue had passionate and informed proponents on either side? "No: hear me. Not only not your twin, not your sibling either -- not even all of your own daughters!"

[Anothermi]

11 hours ago, Pallas said:

What if Craster (and not the Starks) is the direct descendant of the NIght King, and only his truly inbred male progeny can become White Walkers?

Sigh, that seems to be ANOTHER plausible spitball. At least it directly correlates to the apparent "evilness" of the Night King (if not his cleverness). Heck, it might even explain what type of 1st Men were waging war against the CHoF (who tried to turn them against themselves via turning some of them into equally awful alteregos.) Nah. I don't find that intriguing enough to be part of this story. BUT, 1000 years later the best source of original DNA may just be Craster's kids - what with the small pool to draw from - restricting dilution... and it would answer DirewolfPup's question about why there are no female WW.

I still prefer the Stark-linked spitball. Those piercing looks at Jon in particular, but on a lesser level Bran, seem portentous.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

And I agree with you that a Stark as the still-living original is most resonant. But the Stark clan put a wall between themselves and the White Walkers, who then were forced to turn elsewhere -- north of the new Wall, among the Free Folk -- for fresh blood. Maybe only the Craster clan was willing to strike the deal? That would be nice.

Note: as the Hardhome massacre begins. The closing of the settlement's gates -- trapping at least half the people outside, on what immediately became a killing field -- parallels the building of the Wall, trapping a portion of the First Men on the wrong side. Well, the side with Walkers, but no kings.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Pallas

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

Maybe only the Craster clan was willing to strike the deal? That would be nice.

Agreed. That would be the best of both spitballs.

 

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

...trapping a portion of the First Men on the wrong side. Well, the side with Walkers, but no kings.

Love your parallel/mirroring spotting abilities. I put it right up there with "seeing of past & future".

Interesting that the Walkers and the Free Folk didn't start with kings but they have degenerated (devolved?) into having them: Mance (RIP) and Nighty-Night King. 

There's got to be a story behind why the 1st Men north of the Wall are the "Free" Folk 'cuz it sets up the concept of un-free Folk - which implies those south of the Wall, with their Kings and Lords and Subjects and all. Probably another great mystery to add to those we already have... with slight hope of demystification. I believe I tossed a spitball about that when I missed your "make the Free Folk pay for it" joke.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Anothermi
clean up

[Pallas]

4 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Interesting that the Walkers and the Free Folk didn't start with kings but they have degenerated (devolved?) into having them: Mance (RIP) and Nighty-Night King.

But do they?  I don't remember: was it Mance who called himself "the King beyond the Wall." or was that title thrust upon him, by the Watch? If Mance, did he explain that it was something he felt compelled to do: to crown himself as the one person placed above all the clans, in order to unite them? An outsider -- a Crow, no less -- who came to them free of rivalries or blood feuds?  

The Night King too stands apart from the Free Folk, who do their best to stand apart from him and his. He does wear a crown: does he claim to be king of more than the other Walkers and zombonis? And where does he go -- what's his Balmoral -- in between the eons? 

I keep thinking about the wildfire that featured so prominently in Bran's vision. Aegon's Final Solution for his own people. Did Tyrion use all of the casks stored in the Red Keep? Was it something that the Maesters created, and if so, could Sam turn his hand to learning how to make it?  In that case, eventually, the dragons could serve as bombers as well as aerial artillery. But then again, wildfire looks to be a kind of Agent Orange, scorching the earth. I don't think this is a story about making the world better by destroying part of it.

And if the Night King was once a Stark, that would make three Starks of our acquaintance who have been resurrected. No wonder the North remembers.

[Anothermi]

On 2016-06-03 at 6:52 PM, Pallas said:

I keep thinking about the wildfire that featured so prominently in Bran's vision. Aegon's Final Solution for his own people. Did Tyrion use all of the casks stored in the Red Keep? Was it something that the Maesters created, and if so, could Sam turn his hand to learning how to make it?  In that case, eventually, the dragons could serve as bombers as well as aerial artillery. But then again, wildfire looks to be a kind of Agent Orange, scorching the earth. I don't think this is a story about making the world better by destroying part of it.

IIRC it was "pyromancers" who were in charge of the wildfire. They were the ones who wore those weird caps that Thomas Cromwell is shown wearing in the more well known paintings of him (I think of them as skull-caps because they hug the skull, but I don't think that's the correct name for them).

So, we'd call them chemists... or nuclear physicists (linking to the destructive capacity). I expect they are still at King's landing and capable of making more. The only problem would be having access to them or access to the raw materials needed to make it. We don't know what they were made from, just that it was a very volatile concoction. Still it sounds like something Sam could learn to make.

                                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

But on a completely different note...  I tried to slow down those vision sequences and there was a lot of repeating scenes starting with the capped men in a cellar taking down (and sometimes putting back up) clay vessels from shelves. I may have missed some images.

The general repeated sequences were followed by specific items that didn't repeat as much:

1) Capped guys in a cellar with vessels on shelves 2) dragon in the sky followed by dragon shadow reflected on city roofs 3) Mad King on Iron Throne shouting "burn them all" 4) Night King raising the dead at Hardhome 5) (added later in vision) image of a woman's bloodied face (looked like Hardhome again)

followed at different times by: Cat getting throat slit; Wildfire (green liquid) being poured into clay vessels by capped men; green glow of wildfire flames approaching from the end of the cellar where the clay vessels were stored; Jaime walking toward Mad King on throne and unsheathing his sword; Rebellion-Ned asking Ser Arthur where his sister is; a hand covered in blood  near a different arm & hand lying still beside a big bloody gash (possibly the person's body); Jaime stabbing the Mad King; Robb getting stabbed; Jaime stabbing MK again while he lay on the floor; raven in a green wood; Robb falling slowly as Cat watches; ChoF creating the first WW; WW and (Jon?) at Hardhome; Jaime on the Iron Throne with MK dead beside him.

2) Bran falling from the Winterfell tower 2) dawn over unknown location 3) Dany with new born baby dragons 4) Craster baby in WW arms looking up at him 5) Night King approaching baby on the alter 6) Night King fingernail touching baby's cheek 7) baby's eyes turn blue

followed at different times by: Ned about to be be-headed; a swarm of black birds flying out of what looked like a swampy area under a forest canopy followed by a zoom in at <something> in amongst tree roots; shadow of Jaime stabbing MK; repeat of black birds flying out of "swamp".

At this point new images appear and start to form a clearer message pattern:

- armed men running in a dark winter forest, ground covered in snow <<this, I think is where Bran starts becoming aware that "they" are coming for him and Meera, but it takes a while for him to grasp what the vision is telling him. Reminds me of some of my own dreams as a child telling me to "get up and pee already".>>

Still some vision repetition - Bran falling from the tower; wildfire in cellar; Mad King "kill them all"; more wildfire exploding into cellar; zombonis smashing down gates of Hardhome; Night King image (raising the dead); Bran's vision outside the Tree in the North in front of the zomboni horde; Hardhome over run by zombonis; Bran seen by Night King; zombonis smashing down gates of Hardhome; Bran seen by zombonis at Tree in the North; Hardhome zombonis tumbling over cliff; armed men running in the snow covered forest; Night King at Hardhome; Hardhome gates breaking and zombonis pouring through; Jon & Edd looking up at line of WW on cliff at Hardhome; more Hardhome zombonis; armed men running in the snow covered forest; more Hardhome as Night King looks down from the cliff; Night King grabs Bran's arm outside the Tree in the North; more men running in snow covered forest...

That's about when Bran awakes and tells Meera they have been found. The whole thing took about 1.5 minutes (or less).

It was a tedious project. Many images per second. It was effective in that it showed how important it is for a Seer to be able to control the vision or it's useless to comprehend (I TOLD Root Dude he should have taught control rather than pander to Bran's (and our) yen for nostalgia - and answers to mysteries.) The last bit I felt was very effective in showing how long it takes a dreamer to understand what the images are trying to telling him.

If that's the kind of thing the Lord of Light shows the Red Priestesses, no wonder they make interpretation mistakes.

ETA: There was a break between one section of Bran's visions and the other,  so in total the visions took up 50 seconds or less of time on the show (and almost a couple of hours of my own time - <boogle>).

Edited June 7, 2016 by Anothermi
clean up

[ChocButterfly]

Thank you, Anothermi!! That's very useful!!

Any guess at why was Undead Benjen giving Bran blood to drink? And why, oh why, did Bran drink it???!! I know little guy was hungry, but c'mon, there was a rabbit there!

I think it was funny how Sam's brother mentioned that White Walkers don't exist! It appears no one paid attention to Maester Targaryan' s ravens  (I forgot his name) and  dozens of other alerts that I'm sure the Night's Watch has been sending. Heh, I'm really hoping they (WW) get to Kings Landing already.

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, ChocButterfly said:

Any guess at why was Undead Benjen giving Bran blood to drink? And why, oh why, did Bran drink it???!! I know little guy was hungry, but c'mon, there was a rabbit there!

Just on a practical level, I think Benjen gave Bran the rabbits blood to drink because it was the quickest method to get some hydration, nutrition and most importantly - warmth - into him. Bran had been in a trance for quite a long time but - just like Jojen said "you can't survive on what Summer eats" - his body was inert and in the cold. He could still die from hypothermia.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

Nothing important to say other than to thank anothermi for going above and beyond in the call of duty for the Spitball Wall brigade...!

Edited June 11, 2016 by gingerella

[WhiteStumbler]

Well you guys have been busy! :-) Maybe I'll try to catch up in the off-season and be ready to rejoin you at the Wall and take my oath again, after a long drunken time in Molestown, where I was trying to dull the pain of some plot shenanigans from last season that we don't need to rehash.

I'm not ready to jump (stumble?) back in with both feet, but I did want to see if any of you smart people had a solution to this dilemma...

Thinking about the (assumed) upcoming Trial by Combat that Cersei is facing. If her champion Mountainstein is somehow defeated, then the charges against her (that her children are born of incest and adultery) are proven, and Tommen, the current BFF of the High Sparrow, is *not* the rightful king!

There is no one else that I know of in the line of succession.

TOTAL CHAOS! (cue Littlefinger)

Or is the HS playing to loose? Thoughts?

[Anothermi]

Welcome back, WhiteStumbler!!! You have been missed. I almost blasted 3 times on the horn to announce your arrival, and then I checked the book and realized one might be more appropriate. Not sure if I should be offering you some "hair of the mole that bit you" or not. You've been pickling in it for a loooong time. Seven Hells!... 'Have some Grog' is the only way to welcome a brethren back to the Wall.

I'm having trouble figuring out who will be The Faith's champion. Gregore (I meant Sandor... oops) Clegane isn't that far away and it would be so good to see him have a go at his brother, but it's a mystery to me how the show will get him there.

CHAOS! Yes that is LittleFinger's forte. He's poised to make the most of it in the North, but with his Westeros Tardis he could be in King's Landing faster than Jaime.

This season it looks like the main power-sparring is between Maergery and the High Sparrow. She appeared to have the upper hand this episode so he might be holding back something to regain it next episode. Hey. What if he's "converted" Gendry and has him stashed away? He's a commoner but with King's blood. <OK, that spitball may not fly very far>

Edited June 13, 2016 by Anothermi
Clegane name correction

[gingerella]

51 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Welcome back, WhiteStumbler!!! You have been missed. I almost blasted 3 times on the horn to announce your arrival, and then I checked the book and realized one might be more appropriate. Not sure if I should be offering you some "hair of the mole that bit you" or not. You've been pickling in it for a loooong time. Seven Hells!... 'Have some Grog' is the only way to welcome a brethren back to the Wall.

^Here, here!^ Welcome back brother Stumbler...seven hells indeed!  I smiled at your question because of your avatar and all...hehe...whilst you knock back that grog...

As anothermi has said, LF is always at the ready to make haste and hay when chaos ensues...however...I don't see how LF has any rights to the Iron Throne at this point in time. If he, say, married Sansa Stark and became Warden of the North, maaaaybe that would clear a path to the throne...but that's a big maybe and at least a season or two off I'd wager.  So who?  Well, Uncle Kevan is still there. Tyrion could be called back to serve. I'm not sure what Uncle Kev thinks of his impish nephew, but Tyrion did a good job as Hand or whatever he was when he sat on the King's Counsel. The other option is staring us in the face...Marg has said from the beginning, "I don't want to be A queen, I want to be The Queen!"  Since she is worming her way into the Sparrow's divine graces, I'd wager that she could easily make the case that without a mother, nobody would exist, and therefore, that makes The Mother the most important of The Seven, and since Marg could represent The Mother - let's assume she and Tommen knock boots ASAP and she's with child - then I could totally see her convincing the Sparrow that there is no need for a King when The Queen/The Mother can act as divine ruler.

Okay, I see you looking at me with a "huh?!?" look on your face...So after you wipe that grog foam off your chin, think about that...

[Llywela]

Hehe, it's an interesting spitball, gingerella, and ties in with something I've been thinking about lately, which is women yielding power in Westeros (and the lands beyond). We've had so many interesting examples now of how this society regards women in the line of succession. Danaerys, of course, has gone around seizing power by force, left, right and centre, so she's not the best example, but in Westeros just last episode we saw little Lady Lyanna Mormont every inch the ruler of her tiny island, with male advisors on either side to lend her support but showing no sign of wanting to wrest power from her youthful and female hands. In that instance, the female heir seems to have come into power automatically in the absence of any male heir - just as Stannis expected Shireen to rule as his heir, in the absence of a son (until his burned her, at any rate). But then on the Iron Islands, we saw that Yara was not automatically accepted as her father's heir - and neither was Theon, for that matter. Where the rest of Westeros seems to follow strict primogeniture, and automatically accepts a female in the absence of a male heir in the direct line of descent, the politics of the Iron Islands seemed reminiscent of Anglo-Saxon England, where the oldest son/child of the deceased was not the automatic heir, but rather the strongest possible candidate from a wider pool of blood relatives was elected by a council of elders, or whatever. Yara was a strong candidate, but it was clear from the start that her gender disqualified her in the eyes of many - a strong contrast to little Lyanna Mormont, whose succession doesn't seem to have been questioned for a moment. And in Dorne, of course, we've just seen a military coup carried out by a band of females (purely, as far as I can see, to remove Dorne from the wider political upheavals of the realm; too many variables in play already).

I don't really have a spitball attached to all that, it's just been an aspect of the culture and politics of the show that's interested me - each of the seven kingdoms that make up Westeros has such a decidedly different history and culture, and that comes across in subtle ways through the events that we witness in the show. But I guess it could be possible that Margaery could become Queen in her own right and establish a new ruling line - but I bet the powers behind the throne would want to get her married off asap, rather than let her rule as a single lady the way Dany does, and she just doesn't have the kind of power Dany has to get to make her own choices in that regard.

ETA I'm not sure falling pregnant to Tommen would help her case, in that instance, because if Tommen were ruled the product of incest and therefore disqualified from the throne, surely his offspring would be likewise deemed tainted and not fit to be the heir, thus also disqualifying Margaery?

Edited June 11, 2016 by Llywela

[gingerella]

hmmmm, I see your point about being preggers with the child of a bastard inbred king...So maybe no on th baby thang.

[janjan]

The Stumbler is back!!! Oh happy day! You know, as soon as Houndie appeared in the opening scene of last week's ep, I thought, "Can Stumbler be far behind?" He has a magical connection to his avatar, after all. Welcome, Stumbler - drink all the grog you want and honor us with your spit!!!

[Pallas]

All hail, WhiteStumbler! It is thrilling to hear your voice. Welcome, Brother. Yours is now my favorite return of season six.

On 6/10/2016 at 4:56 PM, WhiteStumbler said:

Thinking about the (assumed) upcoming Trial by Combat that Cersei is facing. If her champion Mountainstein is somehow defeated, then the charges against her (that her children are born of incest and adultery) are proven, and Tommen, the current BFF of the High Sparrow, is *not* the rightful king!

But do the charges against Cersei include incest (with Jaime), or only treason through adultery (with Lancel)? People "know" that Cersei's children are bastards, yet I'm not sure the Sparrow has anything but Lancel's testimony about their own sad dalliance. Cersei surely never confessed the incest to Lancel, and I doubt he would lie in an ecclesiastical court. So my guess is that charges won't include incest, even if the Sparrow could prove it. He wants to remove Cersei as a player; he also wants to retain Mr. and Mrs. Tommen as his devout king and queen.

Oh -- perhaps the Sparrow has known about the Hound for some time? His Septon knew the Hound by name, and surely could have communicated that information back to King's Landing. Knowingly or not, The Septon may have been keeping The Hound on ice for The Sparrow. That could explain why the Sparrow has seemed so sanguine: he knows he has Cersei dead to rights on the charges, and, should she therefore chose trial by combat, he believes he has the Hound to call upon.

[ChocButterfly]

Hey, Kentucky Fried Hound, welcome back! You've always had my favorite avatar :)

If I remember correctly, Cersei' s charges never included the incest thing. That's why I was so pissed that Lancel and even that fat priest that slept with hookers, got such a light sentence compared to Cersei' s. Cause, after her Walk of Shame, she's not even off the hook yet!! 

However, I do see the Hound fighting Mounstainstain, but I don't see any possibility of him winning (the Hound).

[gingerella]

A random thought As I just re ad this page...WHY did the Night King show Jon that he has the power th raise the dead? I mean, it's like his secret weapon in a way, and he brazenly shows Jon what he can do as Jon is making his getaway on that boat. I would think that any King who has a secret weapon would not show it to a retreating foe, right?

[ChocButterfly]

Quote

WHY did the Night King show Jon that he has the power th raise the dead? I mean, it's like his secret weapon in a way, and he brazenly shows Jon what he can do as Jon is making his getaway on that boat. I would think that any King who has a secret weapon would not show it to a retreating foe, right?

But it's no secret at all. They all knew the WW could resurrect the dead, they've known it since season 1. In fact, I believe they met the zombies before the WW. Remember Igritte warned Jon about burning her body so she wouldn't come back.

What they didn't know is how they resurrect the dead. I thought It'd involve some sort of ritual with those body parts in a circle we saw in S1, I don't know why they simplified it. I think the Night King raised all those thousands of bodies, right there in a second, exactly to show Jon and the remaining wildlings how mighty and powerful he was. You know, to intimidate them. I got intimidated!!

[WhiteStumbler]

On 6/12/2016 at 8:26 AM, ChocButterfly said:

Hey, Kentucky Fried Hound, welcome back!

If I remember correctly, Cersei' s charges never included the incest thing.

Thanks for the warm welcome, all! I think I am going to (mostly) lurk for now, then jump back in with y'all after the end of the season. There are still too many plot shenanigans (cough-Arya-cough), but this season has been fun again (knocks wood), which forgives a lot of sins, and makes me think A Show is back on track and worth devoting time and energy to.

The HS definitely has incest on his list of charges...
High Sparrow: There are those that say your children were not fathered by King Robert, that they are bastards born of incest and adultery.
Cersei: A lie. A lie from the lips of Stannis Baratheon. <snip> I deny it.
High Sparrow: Good. But these are terrible charges. And the realm must know the truth of them. <snip> Your trial will separate the truths from the falsehoods.

Even with Trial by Combat off of the menu, I still don't see how the HS wins. As much as Gendry coming back would be cool (this season is Real Westeros Reunion season so far), he isn't legitimate, so isn't in the line of succession.
Margaery is a maybe, but the HS would have to believe that she is still a schemer under her piousness, otherwise she would be shocked! by the removal of her husband as the legitimate king. Even if she is pregnant, the father of that child would be illegitimate, making his offspring likewise illegitimate.
Kevan is a Lannister, not a Baratheon.

The only things that work seem to be either Margaery (longshot) or the HS seizing power in the name of The Faith.

[janjan]

1 hour ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Kevan is a Lannister, not a Baratheon.

And Cersei is a Baratheon (by marriage), but she was called Cersei Lannister at King Tommen's announcement. I wonder if that has any significance. Surely Tommen, dumb as he is, could grasp that convicting Cersei of incest would have an impact on his own status.

Is it too soon to start spitting who will survive at the end (if anyone)? I vote for Bronn and Pod as survivors, and maybe Varys and Littlefinger. Maybe (long-shot) Jon and Tyrion, but no one else. Dany is gradually turning to the dark side and will probably meet her father's fate. And no one else has a snowball's chance in Hell.

Or else, maybe no one survives - only the WWs. When the evil army attacked the Bran muffins in the cave and the Children put out a ring of fire, the wights were deterred but the WWs walked right through it. Uh oh. So dragons won't be able to stop them. It's not looking good for Humankind.

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Even with Trial by Combat off of the menu, I still don't see how the HS wins. As much as Gendry coming back would be cool (this season is Real Westeros Reunion season so far), he isn't legitimate, so isn't in the line of succession.

Margaery is a maybe, but the HS would have to believe that she is still a schemer under her piousness, otherwise she would be shocked! by the removal of her husband as the legitimate king. Even if she is pregnant, the father of that child would be illegitimate, making his offspring likewise illegitimate.
Kevan is a Lannister, not a Baratheon.

The only things that work seem to be either Margaery (longshot) or the HS seizing power in the name of The Faith.

Maybe disavowing Tommen as the product of incest is not in the High Sparrow's plan - especially not now that he has the boy king under his thumb. Maybe the aim is to take Cersei down, since she was latterly the primary power behind the throne, and then proclaim true believer Tommen as innocent of all sin, cleansed and legitimised through his faith, and keep him on the throne as a puppet, with the Faith now taking Cersei's place as the power behind the throne.

[janjan]

22 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Maybe the aim is to take Cersei down, since she was latterly the primary power behind the throne, and then proclaim true believer Tommen as innocent of all sin, cleansed and legitimised through his faith, and keep him on the throne as a puppet, with the Faith now taking Cersei's place as the power behind the throne.

I like this. And it explains Big Bird's exhortation to Margie to share the marriage bed (helpfully pointing out that women do not need desire, only patience).

[DirewolfPup]

If Tommen is proved illegitimate in the trial, there is no clear ruler (Dany aside). This could be an opportunity for the HS to recommend the people decide who should lead them, aka democracy. Guess who would win the election if they had one? The HS.

[gingerella]

Spitball Wall brethren, I need some moral support. I find myself getting anxious about this weeks battle episode because I.Cannot.Lose.Jon.Snow.  Seriously, I don't think I can continue to watch this show if Ramsey lives. I just can't do it anymore, and its making my brain hurt. Am I the only one feeling this way?

[Llywela]

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

Spitball Wall brethren, I need some moral support. I find myself getting anxious about this weeks battle episode because I.Cannot.Lose.Jon.Snow.  Seriously, I don't think I can continue to watch this show if Ramsey lives. I just can't do it anymore, and its making my brain hurt. Am I the only one feeling this way?

To be honest, I'm not worried about Jon going into this battle - he was just murdered and brought back to life, I can't see him being immediately killed off again (and seriously, it feels like it's only been 5 minutes since he was brought back!) It's everyone else I'm nervous about - Sansa and Ghost and Davos and Brienne and Pod and Tormund and the rest of them. I'd be worried about Edd, too, if he hadn't been left behind at Castle Black.

Please, Show, please let Ramsey die without any major casualties to the other side.