Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[stillshimpy]

Just seconded on all of that, ChocButterfly.  They made a point of letting us know that Blackfish survived the wedding massacre and.....pfffffffffffft  That story balloon deflated, as far as I can tell.   Blackfish is in the story ether, comparing notes with Benjen and the other "I think they forgot we exist" characters.  If it is yet another case of "we couldn't work things out with the actor" ...oh my god, try figuring out some contractual obligations beforehand, oh casting department and show.  

 

As for Yara, last seen she was (really quite understandably, I felt) saying that as far as she was concerned, her brother was dead and boogeying, so at least we know her disposition on familial obligation to Theon.  

 

I really can't blame her there.  She could save Theon from Ramsay, apparently she couldn't save Theon from Theon.  

[Anothermi]

I'm thinking this is the best thread to post this discussion in. 

 

It's clear that many of us have become disenchanted with the show this season. I'd been wondering how long the show could keep us all engaged and I'm honestly impressed that it managed 4 seasons before it happened. 

 

I'm not planning on bailing on the show - every show is entitled to a less-than-stellar season. I've wandered away from a lot of other shows that I was initially completely addicted to - and a lot sooner. I believe it to be human nature. We love the new and unexpected. We love figuring things out, and then once we have done that and feel relatively (if not completely) comfortable in the show's environment....

 

We get bored. Like Ramsey, but with the remote as our device of choice. 

 

I guess I'm wondering if this slump is all on the show-runners, or if part of it is a predictable viewer progression? (Not sure if this can be figured out without hindsight.) 

 

Our posting did slow down when we had to vacate TWOP. That brought it's own problems, but I don't think that by itself could cause the mass ennui we've been exhibiting (IMHO). We've lamented the weaknesses of this season loud and long in the episode threads, but I think part of the problem is also that we know all the players now, the mystery is gone.  Sure, we've got a few new players - the High Sparrow, Doran & Trystane Martel (Mycella's prince), Mycella (grown up - ish), the Sand Snakes... anyone else? But they haven't had enough development or story line to even care much about them. The main players seem to be spinning their wheels and doing what we expect them to do - often without nuance. 

 

It's disappointing to have this happen, but is it possible to keep the characters we have come to know and follow their story without experiencing a "been there done that" feeling? Is this inevitable?

Edited May 26, 2015 by Anothermi

[ChocButterfly]

Oh well, I'm not going to stop watching either. But I'm not that excited anymore. So maybe next season I will wait for all the episodes to come and watch them at the end together. But then, I won't be able to post on this forum about the episodes on time, one of my favorite parts of the show :(.

 

In other news, what do you guys think it's going to happen to Cersei? I'm sure she won't be killed, she's in for the long run. But I hope she greatly gets humiliated, heh!

 

Characters I'm sure are for the long run, so won't be killed:

 

-Arya

-Sansa

-Jon Snow

-Dany

-Tyrion

-Cersei

-Littlefinger

 

Who else am I missing? Jaimie, I think will die, he has no purpose anymore. Actually, he has had no purpose in a long time now. I don't think he can't be redeemed, since: attempting to kill a young boy and never expressed the slightest remorse about it, violating the trust of his own cousin and killing him to take advantage (again, with no remorse whatsoever!); raping his sister, the supposed love of his life on top of their dead son; being useless since season 3. Basically, the problem with redeeming Jaimie is he has never expressed one iota of remorse about the things he has done, it's like he has no soul. He doesn't harm on purpose or pleasure (like Ramsey), but he doesn't give a shit about it. And he's not even a good fighter anymore, he has no plot left. I hope he dies soon, he tires me.

 

Then, there's Stannis. Ugh, I hate this guy, he's so boring! Unfortunately I think he's in for the long run. But I sincerely hope he and his all army die drowned by snow after they kill the Boltons. Oh, and take Melissandre and his wife with them. I only want Davos to scape with Shireen and maybe live with the Umbers and marry Rickon. Oh, well, I can dream. The problem with Stannis is, apart form the fact that he doesn't take ANY decision and is just doing whatever freaking Mel tells him to do, he could actually be the King now! What the hell is he doing trying to take Winterfell? Taking the North won't give him the crown. If he actually cared about being King, he'd be raging war to Frey, Harrenhal, Casterly Rock, Riverrun, etc. Taking territories that actually matter. Heck, he could take the opportunity now that Cersei has competently fucked up and negotiate with the Tyrells. He could promise Shireen to Loras or get rid of he's fucking wife and marry Marge himself. After all, she wants to sacrifice for the Lord no? So she could sacrifice herself so her husband would be king and finally be able to have many heirs. But we all know Stupid Stannis doesn't know how to negotiate, that's why he'll never be King. And that's why I'm sure Mel is wrong about him being The One, because there's is no way in Hell that he'd be able to unify all mankind against the White Walkers.

[stillshimpy]

I guess I'm wondering if this slump is all on the show-runners, or if part of it is a predictable viewer progression? (Not sure if this can be figured out without hindsight.)

 

Here's something I was just discussing off board, in a PM situation.  I think we've got some evidence that it's stalling, or expanding past a written narrative.  Or it is possible that the story started suffering because it's very difficult for authors to just make a ton of money these days.  So when one hits pay dirt, it can be really difficult to just commit to the structure that stories need to be well told:  A beginning, a middle and an end.  

 

In a written universe, by the time a series has gotten to it's fourth book, it is time to start winding up the tale or narrative structure starts to implode.  There's one other choice in that:  Tell a different story and have your major players only appear as bit players in it (which is basically switching narrative horses midstream to help draw things out).  

 

It's one of the things that episodic TV can suffer from and why it is so unwise for networks to pressure good shows to stretch out a narrative.   Lost could have been a great story.  It really was for the first year, but ABC had a GIANT hit on their hands and so the story became about keeping the show on the air, vs. telling an interesting and tightly told tale.  Often times it's cable series that have a leg up on that situation, because it is hard to fart around endlessly when you've got 10-13 episodes a season.  

 

Arguably the best season of BSG was its first, which with no assurance of renewal told a tight story with strong progression and an ending that was a gobsmacker if the story ended there:  Game over, the writing is on the wall Humanity loses.  That thing was great.  Everybody who has known me from TV forums at all knows how much I adored BSG, but I acknowledge that it fully fell off a narrative cliff in terms of quality.  

 

It was due, in part, to network pressure to create stand alones, to try and draw in new viewers.  

 

 

GoT is starting to feel like it is more about HBO pressuring the writers to add things than it is about translating a book series to TV.  We've got two stories that make almost zero sense:  Sansa's -- for reasons I have beaten into the ground and then King's Landing feels very...."we cut up your meat for you, to make it easier to chew, child!"  Yeah, Cersei's never been a mastermind, but man alive she's not this dim.  "What could possibly go wrong with courting the favor of religious fanatics obsessed with what people do in their bedrooms and with their vices?"  She's a near alcoholic woman, who has children with her twin brother.  She's not the swiftest, but she's not a head-injury victim either.  

 

So anyway, my whole point is that the restlessness and dissatisfaction isn't about "maybe you're just bored now?"  because I LOVED BSG well into its shit years, because I loved the characters so much.  Hell, I readily forgave LOST once the show-runners admitted that they needed to cut the shit and tell the story.  

 

I'm sticking with this, but some of this is just not deft enough to convince me it was part of the GoT stories.    It feels like poorly done padding.  

 

Now, again, it's possible that it is padding from the series, because I know a lot of people who write for a living.  I mean, kind of a freaking lot at this stage in my life , and they all work like slaves to try and make ends meet.  Every time they produce something new, they have to ask everyone they know to read their latest release, because....they HAVE to to keep the lights on.  

 

Point being, although this story stinks of stalling and pretty clearly is stalling, it remains possible that it is Martin's stalling vs. HBO's.  Any Dresden File fans here? (rhetorical question)...well, you likely know what I'm talking about.  

 

 But then HBO is also in the position of trying to keep their own lights on in a changed market.  Anyone who watched The Wire -- often referred to as the Best Show No One Watched (take it as a given that people taking to the internet to talk TV, love TV and have likely seen it....try finding a Wire viewer in the wild....they are like purple unicorns, mainly just mythical ) -- knows that HBO will sometimes just keep something on because of the quality.  

 

But with Netflix and Amazon producing their own content, web series taking off , etc.  HBO is now in the ABC slot of "We have to keep those eyeballs on the screen!"  

 

Game of Thrones just perfectly hit a weird pocket in our entertainment history:  when cable giants began to fall to their knees taking HBO down to at least one knee,  and then authors had to try and cope with the world of e-publishing making it so there was content to be had all.the.time.  Audiences lose patience because they don't need to have any.

 

So when a story starts to try the patience of members of the audience, it can really feel overblown, because it's just become a bit of a rarity that we need to have much.   

 

I have a long history of dumping shows I no longer like.  I quit watching Mad Men, Justified (I may give that another chance) , seriously if I start listing all the shows that I bailed on that are still on the air, we'll be here a while.  I learned that lesson with Buffy, which would have been a show I adored beyond the telling of it, if I'd just quit watch after (its own) The Gift.  

 

Just saying, I know when I'm to the "time to go" part of a story and I'm not there yet.   I do sort of need the story to quit kicking the hell out of the female characters (Sansa's story is making me feel ill and I have to tell myself that one is created by HBO for a bunch of reasons...one being.  it.makes.no.sense).  

 

And if this HBO stalling vs. Martin stalling (because I do not doubt the stalling as a factor, I'm just not certain where one starts and the other begins) then make sure your stalling is entertaining and engrossing.  

 

It doesn't have to be pleasant, it just has to be a good story.  

 

ETA:  In the "oh my god, no!" category of life:  I sold my house recently, when someone approached me wanting to buy it.  A mad scramble ensued to find another house that we could fix up and hopefully also sell for a profit.  This means that I am spending all my time rehabbing a house.  Yesterday I spent seven hours painting ceilings (which is really hard to do for that long)....but my husband asked me if I wanted to grab some audio books to listen to while I painted, because I painted a thousand square feet of basement.  1800 square feet of ceilings upstairs and next comes all those walls....oh.my.god.  

 

He even suggested, "maybe it's time to give up and just do the Games books, get those on audiobooks"  ...which he was joking, by the way, because we then cracked up endlessly over the concept of me painting that house, with all those windows open ...listening to this blasted series on audiobooks.  

 

Yeah, the neighbors would be DEEPLY concerned about us.  I mean, really, really concerned.  

 

So I am not giving in to the books and I am not giving up on the series on TV...but I am frustrated with this season because it's really just circling a tree a lot.  It's not fatal, it's just ....like a wasted year, basically and once again...we're just missing characters that it would fun to check in with.   For me, personally, my very evident frustration has a lot to do with the series lining up with a time in my life -- when I'm doing something both responsible and necessary -- where I'd like my regular dose of escapism more than usual.  

 

Give me a road trip with Brienne if you need to pad the tale.  

Edited May 27, 2015 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

Stillshimpy: And if this HBO stalling vs. Martin stalling (because I do not doubt the stalling as a factor, I'm just not certain where one starts and the other begins) then make sure your stalling is entertaining and engrossing.

 

This is pretty spot on. The dialogue isn't cutting, clever, or fun anymore. Remember Cersei vs Tyrion in Season 2 and 3? 

 

"Your one redeeming quality is that you love your children. That and your cheekbones." 

 

Cersei: "You're not half as clever as you think you are."

Tyrion: "I'm still more clever than you."

 

Sansa about Joffrey: "...he's a monster."

Olenna: "Oh. That's a pity."

 

This is all missing. Yes, conversations need to be had. Shouldn't they at least have some joy in the line delivery? Shouldn't they have something lingering besides exposition? We used to have such fun, complex situations and conversations. One of my all time favorite scenes was in Season 3 at the first small council meeting with Tywin.  The Dance-of-Chairs. I ache for these moments. I long for them.

 

So if we don't have these moments of brevity, why not have more action or magic? No? There are WW out there somewhere. I guess they're walking. We wouldn't know. We haven't seen them. Dragons are doing some things, but not much. Melisandre hasn't done any magic at all this season (and Papa Greyjoy's leech hasn't worked yet). There's no battles. A few horribly choreographed fights in Dorne. So we're stuck with conversations that are dry and dull.

 

Last Season, we got Oberyn. He was a complex, mufti-facited, interesting character. He wanted vengeance for his sister, but he also had a joy in life that no one this season has. It's hard to root for characters when they are so miserable and self-loathing <cough>Tyrion<cough>.

 

This season?

> The High Sparrow at least has semi interesting motives and some good points in conversations delivered by an excellent actor.

> The Sand Snakes want vengeance and nothing else apparently.

> Martell Lord who's name escapes me. He seems like his head is in the right place. He could be interesting, but all he's done is look sternly over the gardens.

> Lady Bolton is prego and has a crush on Ramsey.

> Random pirates and slavers in Maureen-ish local? are.... pirates?

 

All our good characters are getting beaten, and there is no one interesting to replace them to help liven the show up.

 

Everything said, I'll watch this show until it's done. I'm too far committed at this point. Plus, commenting here with all of you is a big part of my overall enjoyment with the series.

Edited May 27, 2015 by DirewolfPup

[janjan]

You guys have just said everything I was thinking. I'm bored as hell with S5 but not giving up yet. A show can reinvent itself -- recall how nimbly The Sopranos switched gears when Nancy Marchand (Mama Livia) died. But that's the exception. Who recalls the abortion that was the second season of Twin Peaks, or Dexter's too long goodbye after the magnificent S4.

 

But A Show will have to bring in some new characters. They've killed off so many fascinating people (Oberyn, Tywin, Ned, Theon (sort of), Houndie, etc.) and left us with Stannis, Ramsay, One-Note Mel, Jaqen in a flour sack, etc.

 

I agree with Choc's List of Lifers, but I pray to add Varys. Bring back Varys, dammit!

 

Cersei will win. She always does. And her threat to her jailers had a Chekov's gun feel to it.

 

BTW - I must be wild. I never saw The Wire. :-)

[gingerella]

DirewolfPup said:

The dialogue isn't cutting, clever, or fun anymore. Remember Cersei vs Tyrion in Season 2 and 3?

 

"Your one redeeming quality is that you love your children. That and your cheekbones."

 

Cersei: "You're not half as clever as you think you are."

Tyrion: "I'm still more clever than you."

Sansa about Joffrey: "...he's a monster."

Olenna: "Oh. That's a pity."

 

This is all missing. Yes, conversations need to be had. Shouldn't they at least have some joy in the line delivery? Shouldn't they have something lingering besides exposition? We used to have such fun, complex situations and conversations. One of my all time favorite scenes was in Season 3 at the first small council meeting with Tywin.  The Dance-of-Chairs. I ache for these moments. I long for them.

 

Yes! This, This, This times a kajillion kwabillion (that is a fucking lot, BTW)! I call this the "Bond Syndrome".  Have you ever watched a James Bond 007 Marathon? If so, you've noticed no doubt, the amazing word play and cheeky inuendos and nuances in the dialogue that both James and some of his amorous intendeds banter back and forth to each other during the Sean Connery years. And though Roger Moore tried to keep that going, it just was never the same as when Sean delivered those cheeky, hilarious lines ("Pussy Galore" anyone?! http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0000345/quotes). They also focused a lot on the "in between" moments in those early Bond films - we got a lot of bedroom dialogue, as well as dinner dialogue, James dressing, showering, shit went down during those times, but we got a more well rounded look at our protagonist and we knew him all the better for it.  And while I still watch every new Bond film that comes out, they are not anywhere near as fab as they once were because gone is the fun, cheeky innuendo dialogue, gone are the in between scenes where we see our guy eating, getting ready for an evening out, hobnobbing with the good and bad guys, etc. Now we get one explosive chase scene immediately connected to the next explosive fight scene. It's exhausting and tedious to watch now, the joy is no longer there.  THAT is what this show is starting to turn into. It's lost its joy, the cheeky sometimes almost gallows humor, the wonder of will she or wont he with characters like Brienne and Jamie, the in between scenes like Tyrion used to have with Shae where you see them wining and dining whilst talking about life stuff. All of that has been replaced with the horrible after horrible after horrible happening to most of our beloved characters. It feels exhausting, demeaning, and not fun anymore.  Behold the Bond Syndrome!

 

One character I noticed last night, was Dany. Dany seems to be the only female character who has yet to be raped and brutalized. Yes her first days with Drogo were scary, but even when he started having sex with her, it wasn't brutal, it was just rudimentary, which Dany rectified with her sex teacher. But isn't it odd that she's the only main female character who is of age (Arya is rather young and Marge seems to be faking it for Tommen's ego's sake), and is having seemingly pleasant, loving sexual relationships?  God, I hope typing that out doesn't mean...well, you know...

 

ETA: Janjan, I'm right there with you on that Midnight Train to Varys!

Edited May 27, 2015 by gingerella

[WhiteStumbler]

chocbutterfly: I liked your Long Haul list rather a lot, but am wavering about Jon's long-term prospects now that so much focus has been on Sam and Gilly. I honestly don't want to see any more of Sansa if it is going to be more of this pig shite. I would rather see what Yara and Balon are doing than see more of that. Almost.

 

stillshimpy: If I had the ability to create and embed gifs here, you would get the Joffrey slow clap for that post. We still have some characters that are interesting in A Show (even if I can't "root" for some of them), but too many are teetering on or fully over into caricature (Ramsay, Sand Snakes, Dany), have been altered in ways that don't seem consistent with their prior character development (most of the KL crew, including Jaime, Olenna, and Margaery), or feel like chess pieces being pushed around (Jaime again, Perpetual Punching Bag Sansa, Stannis) . Whether the wheel-spinning is from A Show or the Things That Do Not Exist, the blame must lay with A Show, because a bunch of the material was already published. For instance, the Wardeness of the North -- Maybe it wasn't in the first book or two of the original source material and had to be grafted in later. The show runners knew that early on, possibly even before S1, so it would have made sense to include some mention of it in previous seasons and not just spring it on us this season, where it feels like a retcon rather than an organic part of this world.

 

And the best thing about having watched The Wire is the ability to tell everyone else how it was better than whatever it is that they are currently watching.

 

RE: Varys -- I hope the next scene we see of Varys is him looking perturbed in that brothel, drumming his fingers on the table and looking annoyed, muttering 'how long could Tyrion possibly take in there?!?'

 

gingerella: I think that the early Dany / Drogo sex scenes were rape to me. The reason it didn't stick in my craw the way Sansa's has is that Dany was already on the way to being a different person (so her assault wasn't some lame "launching pad" for her character arc), and she was interacting with someone who wasn't a cartoon villain.

[WhiteStumbler]

Valaryian Steel! My next British hair metal band. Where is Knifey? I hope they didn't bury Widows Wail with that asshat Joffrey

 

If Brienne has one of the few Valaryian steel swords around, does that mean that we get to see some Brienne v WW action at some point?!? <brain explodes>

[Pallas]

Oh yes, of course!, you're right: KNIFEY is Valyrian steel!

 

As for Brienne, that was my happy thought, too.  A bit of hope that she survives to join the final combat.  As for Joffrey's sword (last seen slicing into his wedding cake, was it not?)...last season I peered into his bier to confirm my suspicion that Tywin chose to bury only one legacy, not two. The sword dead-Joffrey clutched was nothing special.  My guess is that Tywin kept Oathkeeper's little brother near, counting down the days until he could instruct Illyn Payne to behead Tyrion with it.  

[Anothermi]

Valaryian Steel! My next British hair metal band. Where is Knifey? I hope they didn't bury Widows Wail with that asshat Joffrey

 

If Brienne has one of the few Valaryian steel swords around, does that mean that we get to see some Brienne v WW action at some point?!? <brain explodes>

I am unable to imagine A Show would allow us that much fun. I suspect it is more likely that they would have Ramsey kill Brienne, take her sword and let F**king Ramsey kill a WhiteWalker with it - saving himself to prey upon and torture others for the foreseeable future. 

Edited June 1, 2015 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

Interesting spitballing around our dear friend, Lady Brienne of Tarth. And here she thought her life's mission was to galavant around the Seven Kingdoms, attending to and defending high born lords and ladies, when in fact she might come face to face with a WW, zombonie, etc. I wonder how ol Brienne would fare under such circumstances since to date she's really been a fighter of men, it's not even clear to me what she knows or thinks about Winter Coming. Has she ever uttered the words? I cant remember her doing so, so it is intriguing to consider how she would react in that situation. That said, I wonder if she does end up fighting with the NW, et al, how she will be accepted being a woman and all. What they almost did to Gilly was pretty rank, maybe Jon's return will re settle the men a bit, though it seems like he's bringing a hell of a lot of trouble with him. 

 

And yet...when Jon does arrive back at Castle Black with all those Free Folk in tow, at least they ALL will be able to say, "man, the shit that's coming at us is unbelieveable, just you wait and see...really awful stuff..." and it wont be Jon's word against all his men, he'll have thousands of Free Folk who saw what went down at Hardhome too to back him up. I wonder how that will help or hinder incorporating the Free Folk into the NW fighting squad...

 

ETA: WS, I get what you're saying about Dany and Drogo on the one hand, but to me, at first I saw it more as he was doing what one does with one's wife. She was inexperienced, what was she going to do? She did it how and when he wanted it, but then she found a way to be with him on her own terms, and he seemed to like that too. And she clearly fell in love with him, I cant see someone like Sansa falling in love with hideous shithead Ramsey. So to me, with Dany it didn't feel like rape in the same way Sansa's was brutal and terrorizing, don't know if that makes sense or not.

 

ETA2: Can we get a full head count of all the Valyrian steel that's out there at the moment (ie: who has what and where)?

Edited June 1, 2015 by gingerella

[Pallas]

Re steel,  I think these are all we know of: Jon's Mormont sword (currently, beyond the Wall with Jon); Oathkeeper (currently, in the North with Brienne); Oathkeeper's little brother (whereabouts unknown, though probably in King's Landing in Jaime or Cercei's chambers);  Knifey (whereabouts unknown, though probably in Littlefinger's possession).    

 

And yet...when Jon does arrive back at Castle Black with all those Free Folk in tow, at least they ALL will be able to say, "man, the shit that's coming at us is unbelieveable, just you wait and see...really awful stuff..." and it wont be Jon's word against all his men, he'll have thousands of Free Folk who saw what went down at Hardhome too to back him up. I wonder how that will help or hinder incorporating the Free Folk into the NW fighting squad...

 

It may not sway the large faction who voted for Thorne: a faction that started only one vote down, and seems to be waxing.  And for the purposes of the story, I'm thinking a new Night's Watch revolt is pretty much a given.  Fighting!Jon is obviously a more compelling character than Latrine-Crew-Supervisor-Assigning!Jon.  And as for battles, The Big One for All the Marbles is surely scheduled for sometime in the final season. 

 

ETA:

 

I wonder how ol Brienne would fare under such circumstances since to date she's really been a fighter of men, it's not even clear to me what she knows or thinks about Winter Coming. Has she ever uttered the words?

 

Winter will probably not be a surprise to her, but White Walkers and zombonis will.  They were thought to be extinct (if ever they were real to anyone but Northerners).  The Watch had been allowed to degenerate into the motliest of crews, suffering whatever the opposite of mission-creep is, and hunting down the Free Folk for sport disguised as purpose.   Only the crown and the heads of each House were sent the ravengram that only Davos seems to have taken seriously -- Davos and Melisandre, in the one act that counts in her good books.  

Edited June 1, 2015 by Pallas

[stillshimpy]

: WS, I get what you're saying about Dany and Drogo on the one hand, but to me, at first I saw it more as he was doing what one does with one's wife.

 

See, she was crying that first night and clearly hating it for quite some time afterward.  It was the "it is known" girls who introduced her to the concept that it was even possible to like having sex.  All of the Dothraki were rapists as part of their conquering ways and even Dany didn't quite understand that being married failed to make rape acceptable.  Remember, she wanted the Dothraki blood riders to have to marry the Lamb women, which somehow made the rape okay, in her mind.  

 

However, what we were shown between Dany and Drogo at first was marital rape.  I don't think Drogo had any concept of consent by a partner being a thing, ever and in his mind, that was just his conjugal right.  Probably in Dany's too, it just doesn't negate the "and she hated it and cried through it at least the first time and afterward looked none too thrilled"....and yeah, that's rape.  

 

Also, however Drogo saw it, Dany was crying the first time.  So pretty sure that no matter what Drogo thought he was doing, Dany knew she was being raped.  She just knew she didn't have any choice in the matter.  

Edited June 1, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

I have a bad feeling about Jon returning with all those Wildlings. As Pallas said, another NW revolt is inevitable, that guy who hates Jon will probably win. So, I'm almost sure they won't let the Wildlings go through the doors. If anything, they'll ambush them and try to massacre them all. Besides the poor dead woman Wildling kept asking Jon if he was sure her daughters would be safe with them. Dum, dum, dum! Plus, yeah, Olly, who will he kill, Jon himself?

Now that I think about it, it was a very bad plan of Jon, not that he had much of an option, though.

[WhiteStumbler]

ChocButterfly: I have a bad feeling about Jon returning with all those Wildlings.

I got the impression that dozens to hundreds of Wildlings (plus maybe a giant with his own floaty) made it onto the boats? And another revolt in the NW after they just killed Mormont would seem like repetitive and lazy storytelling. Not that A Show has been above that in prior episodes this season.

 

Wouldn't Olly be more likely to try to kill Tormund, though?

[janjan]

Jon estimated that about 500 FFs had made it to the ships before the pigshit hit the fan.

 

Not clear why they needed ships in the first place, since previous forays North had always been over land. The reason became clear later: showrunners needed a way for Jon & Co. to escape. That would have been impossible on land, so we got ships and zombonis who can't swim. Neatly done.

 

Does this mean that Benjen is gone for good? <sniff>

 

I can't see Alistair letting the FFS, and especially the giant, through the gate. Closed captions said his name is Wum Wum. Cute. He's cute, too. I'm not clear on how far it is from the ships to the NW gate. Probably pretty far, especially for Wum Wum and the last batch of FFs who got all wet.

 

Spit incoming: Betcha Cersei will fess to incest with Lancel and "Mother's Mercy" will free her. Then she will set Mountainstein on the Sparrows. Splat. Then she will play Game of Thrones with Kevan and win, but fight to a draw with Olenna. Somehow, LF will come out on top.

[90PercentGravity]

I think closed caption said 5000.

[janjan]

Could be. I'll check again.

[Llywela]

Not clear why they needed ships in the first place, since previous forays North had always been over land. The reason became clear later: showrunners needed a way for Jon & Co. to escape. That would have been impossible on land, so we got ships and zombonis who can't swim. Neatly done.

I think the boats make it a much faster trip than trudging overland with everything they own (or at least, whatever they managed to salvage). Travelling by boat was how Stannis managed to sneak up on the wildling army last season. What confused me was Jon saying they'd still have to go through a tunnel in the Wall. Can't the boat just go around the Wall to a port somewhere further down the coast?

 

I have a bad feeling about Jon returning with all those Wildlings. As Pallas said, another NW revolt is inevitable, that guy who hates Jon will probably win. So, I'm almost sure they won't let the Wildlings go through the doors. If anything, they'll ambush them and try to massacre them all. Besides the poor dead woman Wildling kept asking Jon if he was sure her daughters would be safe with them. Dum, dum, dum! Plus, yeah, Olly, who will he kill, Jon himself?

I think Olly is almost certain to do something stupid - that's been on the cards all season. Sam's advice to him last episode pretty much put the seal on it. What was it he said? 'Sometimes you have to do what you know in your heart is right, even if all around you think it's wrong', or words to that effect? Yeah, there's no way advice that ambiguous isn't going to come around to bite him! Olly will try to attack the Wildlings, or Jon for bringing them, or something - the question is, who will pay the price? Olly himself? Tormund? Jon? Sam? Gilly? Hopefully not Dolorous Edd...

[gingerella]

I also hear 5000, but I thought it was n reference to how many FF were still left on land, not on the boats, but I checked out of that extended scene at a certain point (as referenced by my rant upthread immediately after the scene ended...oopsie). If they only come back with 500 people, and many are children and oldsters, that aint gonna help the NW very much.

Another problem with this Hardhome scenario - which I am going to spitball - is that it maybe isnt in the books because it just does not make sense (that is becoming the mantra of S5 isnt it?) because as far as we have been told, The Wall extends thousands of miles in either direction of Castle Black, I would assume from one shoreline of somewhere east to some shoreline of somewhere west because there has to be a natural cutting off point where a wall is no longer needed to keep something on the other side, does that make sense so far? If so, and if "north of the wall" extends a far bit of distance northward - because lets not forget how long the NW party with Jon and Sam was out there, it wasnt just a day or two away from the wall - then how the hell did Jon and Thormund get to a body of water so fast to even get to Hardhome, whycouldnt they high tail it over there overland? yes, yes, I know, we need water so the baddies cant get them since apparently reanimating dead people seems to be an Olympic land sport, but still, the going by ship to Hardhome makes no sense to me.

BTW, I did love seeing Tyrion banter with Dany, interpersonal communication really is his forte, and I love Tyrion best when he is "on" and being snarky.

[ChocButterfly]

Not to mention, Ginger, how on earth did Stannis get there so fast without crossing any wall, with an army of thousands and without anyone seeing them coming!!

[gingerella]

Not to mention, Ginger, how on earth did Stannis get there so fast without crossing any wall, with an army of thousands and without anyone seeing them coming!!

No kidding, and if he took ships to get up there, which IIRC he did, then didn't he pass by Hardhome and see all the FF hanging about there? It's not like you couldn't see all those people and their fires from a ship...continuity, it's a good thing.

[janjan]

Choc: how on earth did Stannis get there so fast without crossing any wall, with an army of thousands and without anyone seeing them coming!!

Because they were just made of bits and bytes. Prolly traveled by fibre optic. :-)

[WhiteStumbler]

No kidding, and if he took ships to get up there, which IIRC he did, then didn't he pass by Hardhome and see all the FF hanging about there? It's not like you couldn't see all those people and their fires from a ship...continuity, it's a good thing.

Not a continuity error. Tormund said explicitly that the Free Folk retreated to Hardhome after the greatest army the North has ever seen was cut to pieces by Stannis.  Last season, Stannis probably landed just north of The Wall before attacking the FF (he didn't come thru The Wall to attack), his ships were presumably still there when Jon and Tormund sailed off to Hardhome.

[gingerella]

WS, your name belies your talent because as usual, you have de-stumbled, or stabilized my thinking, thank you my esteemed Spitball Wall friend and brethren! That makes a wee bit more sense now. I wish we could create -  mind you, I have no inclination to do so, just wishful thinking aloud - a map for the Unsullied that didn't spoiler us, but showed us all the places we know from A Show only. I am a visual thinker and I continuously get lost as to what, where, when, why and how with A Show, particularly where places are in relation to one another. Oy!

 

That said, it still seems that Hardhome was a rather stupid place for the FF to set up their main base camp because they are pretty much the only people, aside from those NW who've seen the WWs in person, who know how awful the WWs and their army of dead are, so why would they hunker down and set all their eggs in what amounts to trapping themselves in a box canyon surrounded by mountain on just about all sides, the only escape route appearing to be the sea?  I would think they'd be better off trying to get through one of the many unmanned Wall gates that we've been hearing about over and over and over and over. Why not just blast through one of those?

[WhiteStumbler]

WS, your name belies your talent because as usual, you have de-stumbled, or stabilized my thinking, thank you my esteemed Spitball Wall friend and brethren!

<bows> Valar Dohaeris.

 

'Blasting through' one of the un-garrisoned tunnels should have been the FF strategy last season, now it is sort of impossible with Stannis, the Southern King who already kicked their asses once, on the other side of The Wall.

 

What will be interesting (to me) is: How will the gates on The Wall hold, if the weapons of the WWs shatter steel? I don't think four-inch bars of cold-rolled steel are going to be much of an impediment.

[Anothermi]

...it still seems that Hardhome was a rather stupid place for the FF to set up their main base camp because they are pretty much the only people, aside from those NW who've seen the WWs in person, who know how awful the WWs and their army of dead are, so why would they hunker down and set all their eggs in what amounts to trapping themselves in a box canyon surrounded by mountain on just about all sides, the only escape route appearing to be the sea?  I would think they'd be better off trying to get through one of the many unmanned Wall gates that we've been hearing about over and over and over and over. Why not just blast through one of those?

WS pointed out one of the things I was going to raise (slow poster here) so I'll just mull over this other point.

 

It seemed to me that Hardhome is a FF version of a Westrosi HoldFast (yanno, the place where Cersei, Sansa and the Ladies of the court gathered to be slaughtered by Ilyn Payne if Stannis won the battle of Blackwater?). It's conventionally well protected. Cliff on one side and the sea on the other. In the intro credits to this episode (8) the pan-in to Castle Black shows a bay north of the Wall (right side). On the northern part of that bay appears to be a section of rock/mountain that form a cliff. I presume that is where Hardhome is located. It is a lot farther north than Stannis would have needed to go to get to the FF side of Castle Black during the battle. 

eta: perhaps a benevolent WhiteCloak could find us a link that shows this bay?

 

To repeat, it looks conventionally well protected. I think only Sam and a handful of Nights Watch - whoever survived the 1st zomboni horde attack on Commander Mormont & co., the mutiny at Craster's place and finally the attack by the FreeFolk - have actually seen how big the Zomboni horde is, and it a LOT bigger at this point. Even Jon hasn't seen it as he was off with the HalfHand when the horde by-passed Sam and attacked Commander Mormont's group. I don't think the FreeFolk have actually seen the horde yet, they're just smart enough to figure out that if the WW's can reanimate the dead - which they have seen - that could end up being a whole honking lot of recruits. 

 

So, the idea that an army of the dead wouldn't have a problem getting down unscalable cliffs without, yanno, risking death? "Those who are dead cannot die" probably hadn't crossed their minds yet when it came to getting down cliffs.  (I wonder if WWs are somehow related to the Iron Born? or vice versa?)

 

Anyway. That's how I see their reasoning for plan B being 'hole up at Hardhome'. It's a hell of a place, but they thought it would be protected enough. It would have seemed like a good idea at the time.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Anothermi

[ChocButterfly]

Last season, Stannis probably landed just north of The Wall before attacking the FF (he didn't come thru The Wall to attack), his ships were presumably still there when Jon and Tormund sailed off to Hardhome. 

But I still don't understand, if Stannis can go North the Wall with his ships, why can't the Wildlings do the same? Why did they need (and still do now) to go through the freaking Wall gates??

 

And because I'm apparently extra stupid today, what does FF stand for?

[janjan]

what does FF stand for?

Free Folk, Freedom Fighters, Founding Fathers... yanno, all those F words.

[Anothermi]

But I still don't understand, if Stannis can go North the Wall with his ships, why can't the Wildlings do the same? Why did they need (and still do now) to go through the freaking Wall gates??

 

And because I'm apparently extra stupid today, what does FF stand for?

Last thing first: FF = free folk (as far as I know or AFAIK for short)  :-D

 

eta: oops, slow poster syndrome strikes again.

 

Free Folk don't seem to be the seafaring type. None of them. If water isn't drinkable or make-into-boozable, what use is it? Same goes for the WWs and the zombonies. Why can't they just go around? Guess that's another reason we saw them not come after Jon et al in the boats. Must go over, or under or through. Never go around. So, there goes my spec that the WW might be related to the Iron Born who are virtual water sprites compared to the REAL dead.  

 

We know that some of the freefolk found ways through the wall. Season one when Tonks and co tried to capture Bran-muffin. 

Edited June 3, 2015 by Anothermi

[janjan]

We know that some of the freefolk found ways through the wall. Season one when Tonks and co tried to capture Bran-muffin.

Careful analysis determined that they came through a plot hole in the wall. Right after the E1 deserter and Ghost's mother.

 

As Jon & Co. are loading FFs into the boats (well before the WW attack), vainly pleading with them to stay in line:

 

     Jon: How many are with us? 5,000?

     Tormund: I'm not good at counting.

     Jon: We're leaving too many behind.

 

He is asking how many accepted the deal vs. how many sided with the Thenns and refused. They never said how many made it to the ships, but there were still a lot of people waiting (not in line) on the shore when the WWs attacked. Those are the ones who all got killed and then resurrected by the chief WW.

 

So the final tally of those who joined Jon is fewer [thank you, Stannis] than 5,000 and includes a lot of non-combatants.

[Fools Gold]

But I still don't understand, if Stannis can go North the Wall with his ships, why can't the Wildlings do the same? Why did they need (and still do now) to go through the freaking Wall gates??

It's very probable, that beeing a  very savage culture, the wildlings do not have the technology to make big ships to sail south. It is neveer ever implied that they could manage that kind of thing.

[Fools Gold]

 

'Blasting through' one of the un-garrisoned tunnels should have been the FF strategy last season, now it is sort of impossible with Stannis, the

Southern King who already kicked their asses once, on the other side of The Wall.

 

I think it couldn't have been the FF strategy, because they do not appear to posses the information that such gates: 1) are un-garrisoned 2) exist. For example: they rely on the info that Jon Snow gives them about the number of soldiers in the NW. And the tunnel that Sam usesto get through the wall is implied (or said explicitly, I dont quite recall) to be very little known or secret and that he has learn about it because of his time with the books, the point beeing, that is very little chance that the wildlings know anything about it.

(also, remember the lesson history Jon Snow gave Ygritte, it is stablished that the wildlings dont register much of the past, wich make perfect sense)

[Anothermi]

... (also, remember the lesson history Jon Snow gave Ygritte, it is stablished that the wildlings dont register much of the past, wich make perfect sense)

 

Sorry, I don't remember that history lesson. Could you provide the Season and episode so I can review it? 

[Fools Gold]

It seemed to me that Hardhome is a FF version of a Westrosi HoldFast (yanno, the place where Cersei, Sansa and the Ladies of the court gathered to be slaughtered by Ilyn Payne if Stannis won the battle of Blackwater?). It's conventionally well protected. Cliff on one side and the sea on the other. In the intro credits to this episode (8) the pan-in to Castle Black shows a bay north of the Wall (right side). On the northern part of that bay appears to be a section of rock/mountain that form a cliff. I presume that is where Hardhome is located. It is a lot farther north than Stannis would have needed to go to get to the FF side of Castle Black during the battle. 

 

You are very right about this, and I would like to add that it's kind of the thing that makes this a great show: the way the story is so well thought that their various parts rhyme. We have to remember the stories about Harrenhal, a city so strong that could have been held against 1 million attackers, but it was defenseless when the attack was unconventional, dragons in that case, white walkers and the army of the dead in this.

I would add, it's also one of the many strong traits of a show, the characters react to what they know of the world, and not to what the screenwriters know. In this case, the wildlings have no idea that the conventional safe spot it's totally useless against the dead army, so it's only natural that they are not prepared for it.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Fools Gold

[Fools Gold]

Sorry, I don't remember that history lesson. Could you provide the Season and episode so I can review it? 

 

It's when the wildlings and Jon have already crossed the wall, and Jon tells Ygritte that an invasion of an organized wildlings army have happened 6 times before, and every time the wildlings have lose. Ygritte shows knowing totally nothing about it, wich I think is a way of showing that the wildling culture is very basic and does not have much historical records. What I infer from that, is that they are not the kind of people that would have much info on the wall soft spots.

I'm very bad at remembering the exact episodes of things, and I'm always kind of terrified that if a google to find it, I shall step upon a spoiler. But I think it should be in the third season, just before Jon Snow escape from his wildlings pack.

[WhiteStumbler]

I remember that scene. JS say you won't win, Ygritte says how do you know, and JS says you have lost 6x before, every northern boy knows the names of the heroes and where the battles were fought.

One of the rare instances where Jon knew something and Ygritte knew nothing.

[Fools Gold]

At some point, they walk by an abandoned windmill and Ygritte asks if it is a palace. After that, one should not wonder why they don't have ships

[Anothermi]

Thanks for pointing me in the general direction WS and Fools Gold. I'll review it. I think what I remember the most from that time period is the Bran Muffin Crew hidden in what might have bee the abandoned windmill you mentioned and Jon and Orell (sp?) both trying to impress Ygritte - until Jon was faced with being told to kill one of his countrymen (a man of the North!). 

[Llywela]

I doubt there's enough wood available in the snowy wasteland north of the Wall for any shipbuilding skills to have been developed among the wildlings - they'd have struggled to build Hardhome and its wall, I reckon.

[janjan]

I don't think there's a lot of farming either, in what looks like a perpetual winter beyond the wall. So Jon's (and Mance's) promise of land to farm must sound strange to the FFs.

 

And they might not even be better off (other than perhaps -- maybe -- escaping WWs). The neolithic revolution led to settlements/cities, social hierarchy, a leisure class, and technological advance. It also led to poorer nutrition, more infectious diseases, and wars over land and water. There's a good argument that it was humankind's biggest mistake. The FFs haven't made that mistake yet.

 

PS - No fair picking on our mods. I've never seen them be arbitrary.

Edited June 3, 2015 by janjan

[Fools Gold]

Careful analysis determined that they came through a plot hole in the wall. Right after the E1 deserter and Ghost's mother.

 

We have seen how a few wildlings cross the wall with some trouble. As it is shown, it's totatlly possible for some to cross, totally impossible for thousands to cross.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Fools Gold

[gingerella]

The neolithic revolution led to settlements/cities, social hierarchy, a leisure class, and technological advance.

Janjan, I cracked up reading this because I was imagining a Neolithic cave man sitting back in a lounge chair around a 1960's kidney shaped pool (Hey! Pool shape like Thor's insides, taste yum, me hungry, *grunts and looks around for pool boy to order pterodactyl wings), then goes back to surfing iRock.

[janjan]

Hee! I want one of those iRocks. Good for surfing, good for pelting giants with a slingshot.

[stillshimpy]

So we're coming up on the penultimate episode of the season, which is usually when the really big things go down.  At least historically and I was trying to think what I hope will happen and what I think will happen.  

 

I finally found a reason to hope that this crap with Sansa is a faithful retelling of every detail in the book, regardless of how senseless I find it:  That's the only way that Ramsay will die in the next episode.  Since I practically chant "death to Ramsay!" in my head -- with a chorus of 'and his dad too!' -- every time he's onscreen that's what I'm hoping.  I sincerely don't care if Ramsay dies of sepsis from a wound he got when his skinning knife nicked him.  I just want the bastard to die.  

 

So clearly he's going to live. 

 

Pretty much whenever I have a "What do I hope will happen?" moment, I realize it is incredibly unlikely to happen.  

 

What I think will happen:  I think Tommen's a goner.  Or maybe Myrcella.  The season practically opened with a promise of shrouds for the gold crowned children of Cersei.  Myrcella isn't married yet, so that would put Tommen on the "might die" list.  However, that would practically make Stannis King by default "Everyone else died.  Put in Stannis, Coach!'" being anticlimactic as hell.  It's just occurred to me that Stannis left Castle Black for Winterfell already, so presumably Stannis and Bolton will have a battle.  Or Melisandre will kill Shireen and take out Bolton that way, which is sort of what I fear will happen.  That Melisandre will kill Shireen without Stannis's permission, but with her mother's blessing (and likely encouragement).  

 

So...I've just realised that Sansa being married to Ramsay indicates that her marriage to Tyrion is null and void.   For a moment I wondered if that meant Dany might marry Tyrion and not the guy with the anti-charisma field surrounding him.  

 

Bran or Benjen, both very unlikely to show up.   

 

What else have we got?  In the "hey, you know what would be fun?" I sort of want the Hound (who I know, he's likely dead, but again....offscreen death, so I hold out some hope) shows up at Winterfell.  He always had a soft spot for Sansa and he's had all season to recover.  Maybe he could team up with Brienne after he discovers Sansa's fate.  The Hound was practically unstoppable and Brienne only barely beat him.  

 

I've clearly worked my way back towards "Stuff I would hope for, and therefore won't happen."  

 

ETA: Oh! Maybe Margaery will turn out to be knocked up and granted the High Sparrow's mercy?  That actually seems possible. 

Edited June 3, 2015 by stillshimpy

[gingerella]

So clearly he's going to live.

 

Pretty much whenever I have a "What do I hope will happen?" moment, I realize it is incredibly unlikely to happen.

It's like George Constanza backwards world.

[stillshimpy]

Holy crap, check out the next episode title!  The Dragons are going to be back?   That's promising, although I'm trying to think what action Dany could have been set up for here that could come to any sort of climax in the next episode?   I'm assuming it would have to do with the Sons of the Harpy.   

 

And that's about where my brain stalls out.  

 

Death Watch 2015:  I guess I'll go ahead and add Jorah to it in some capacity.   He's got a terminal disease (eventually terminal) .  He desperately wants to get closer to Dany via that tournament.  Dany's intended has pressured her throughout to reopen fighting pits and attend some kind of fighting.  I wonder if he has a plan to kill her that Jorah can foil somehow?  

 

I just can't imagine that Dany is really going to be married off to the guy with the great voice, but whose name I can never remember.  So I'm assuming it's about to go down in some capacity.  

[janjan]

Shimp: I wonder if he ["your future grace"] has a plan to kill her that Jorah can foil somehow?

That's an interesting thought. Didn't Daario say that that guy whose name I can't remember either was in with the sons of Harpies? And also recommend that she kill all the former masters? Maybe the masters/harpies will reveal their dastardly schemes at the big fight, Jorah will save her, and then Dany, somewhat pissed, will let the dragons loose.

[DirewolfPup]

Is it weird that the title of Sunday's new episode made me think of the "mating dance?" I know most reptiles can breed brother to sister with minimal problems. Watching dragons rearing baby dragons. I'd die.