Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[stillshimpy]

There's no way Edmure could approve any wedding. Dude's probably in a dungeon at Frey's castle. Or maybe he's more like a Sansa prisoner, where he can roam around the place, but definitely not make any decisions, specially regarding Sansa!

 

Yeah, apparently for enough gold Walder Frey will pretty much sign off on anything so I'm assuming that if Edmure is alive -- and he didn't seem the most stalwart of souls, by the way, so I doubt moral fortitude will come to his aid -- he could easily be pressured into consent for a pile of gold.   Kind of like Sansa was pressured into writing that letter, which again, slightly more forgivable because she's a kid.  

 

Still, I'm just not sure how likely it is that LF would try to marry Sansa.  I am also unsure how likely it is that he'd marry her off to someone else, because that would mean handing her over to someone else.    It's not that I think he's truly fond of her, but he did go to a lot of trouble to acquire her.  I can't see him giving her up so quickly.   So perhaps wherever this "far enough away that even Cersei Lannister can't touch you" destination has Littlefinger's intended?  

[janjan]

Shimpy: assuming that if Edmure is alive...

When news of the Red Wedding came to King's Landing and Joffs was so gleeful that Tyrion asked if he had just killed a puppy, the report was that Edmure was in Frey's dungeon. It didn't mention the Blackfish, but we saw him go out to look for a tree to p*ss on before the doors of doom slammed shut.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, I knew the last we heard that Edmure was locked up in Frey's dungeon, but you just never know when someone will...you know...catch a fever, if you get my "depends on how long it is worthwhile to keep him alive" drift.  

 

Annnnnnndddd......I think I might have it for who Littlefinger proposed to.   

 

Oberyn was actually married to someone, right?  Doesn't seem like it could have been too much of a love match, because we've yet to meet her or hear her name.   

 

Cersei Lannister can't reach Dorne.  What if LF proposed to Oberyn's widow, because presumably she's far less heartbroken than Elaria "Kill 'em all and let my vengeance sort 'em out" Sand.   

 

Jaime's headed to freaking Dorne too.   Will Brienne follow Sansa wherever she's bound and bump into Jaime?  

 

Not sure I even believe any of that is possible, it just struck me as fun :-)  

[gingerella]

Wellllll, in keeping with random and errant spitaballery, what if:

A. LF asked for Myrella's hand in marriage? I know, she is supposedly promised to the crown prince of Dorne but maybe the Prince, or someone else there, has decided that having their prince marry the daughter of the family that killed their beloved Oberyn is too much for Dorne to bear and it would prove to bring upheaval and chaos to the land known for its supreme art of fucking. That - LF marrying her daughter - Would freak the shit out of Cersei because she would be ale to do nothing about it really. I doubt this will happen but what if?

B. Margery actually does finally marry Tommen and become The Queen only to find that she is unable to become pregnant? She would be The Queen and yet essentially worthless and useless because its a queen's primary function to provide heirs to the throne? I could totally see this happening and ol Marg losing her shit as she connives and schemes, Cersei style, to figure out how to procure an infant as hers.

C. Margery isnt marrying Tommen, but instead her grandmother has arranged, unbeknownst to Marg, for her to marry LF because she wants her granddaughter as far away from the nasty Lannister family as possible.

That's all I got before my morning coffee fix.

[stillshimpy]

It would be sort of fun if Margaery would visit a fortune teller, because it just doesn't seem possible that she is ever actually going to achieve her quest to be queen in any real sense.  Admittedly, didn't the witch tell Cersei something about how she'd be replaced by a queen younger and more beautiful or something? 

 

Also, small complaint about the show:  I do wish the directors of this show would allow their day-players to dial it back to believable human behavior.  Every now and then they'll have someone who delivers.  Like the guy who refused to surrender to Theon (the one with the bad cough) who took an axe to the head for his trouble, then Ramsay clearly tortured the hell out of that guy, because ....Ramsay.   Anyway, Coughing but with something resembling Honor Extra did a good job.  

 

I mention that because the freaking witch in Cersei's flashback was dialed up to the Ren Fair Villain and well into scene chomper, with a side of extreme dinner theater.     Anyway, somewhere in her mouthful of scenery, I seem to remember something that indicated that Margaery would be queen.  Or something that made it sound like it was Margaery, at least. 

 

As much fun as I think it would be to have Marg's Black Widow King-Killing Curse Continue if Witchy Poo, the wily bumpkin is to be believed, the third time is the charm for Marg.   

 

Also, it occurs to me that Myrcella had a lucky escape.  In Tyrion's plan to figure out who was spying on him for Cersei, with the three proposed marriages, one of the options was freaking Robyn.   You just know Lyssa would have tossed her out the skyhole on general principles of insanity and jealousy, pretty much no matter what.  

 

In the good work done by a day-player department:  The guy with the big ol' blade guarding the King of Dorne.  The wordless exchange that indicated "I'll just go kill her, shall I?"  from the guard to the King, with the King shaking his head "no" was pretty funny and done without semaphore flags levels of obvious stuff (witchy poo).  

Edited April 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Jan Snow]

Oberyn was actually married to someone, right?  Doesn't seem like it could have been too much of a love match, because we've yet to meet her or hear her name.   

 

Cersei Lannister can't reach Dorne.  What if LF proposed to Oberyn's widow, because presumably she's far less heartbroken than Elaria "Kill 'em all and let my vengeance sort 'em out" Sand.   

There hasn't been any mention of Oberyn being married. He only mentions Ellaria as his paramour and the fact that he has eight daughters. They haven't told us if any or all of these "sand snakes" are her daughters. Knowing Oberyn, the last part doesn't seem likely.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Jan Snow

[janjan]

Shimpy: somewhere in her [witchy-poo's] mouthful of scenery, I seem to remember something that indicated that Margaery would be queen.  Or something that made it sound like it was Margaery, at least.

She said "someone younger and more beautiful."  Could be Dany.

 

Or it could be Hillary Clinton. At the White House Correspondents' dinner last night, the President said of Hillary and the way to Washington:  "Daenerys is coming to Westeros."

[ChocButterfly]

There hasn't been any mention of Oberyn being married. He only mentions Ellaria as his paramour and the fact that he has eight daughters. They haven't told us if any or all of these "sand snakes" are her daughters. Knowing Oberyn, the last part doesn't seem likely. 

They did say the "snakes" wanted to avenge their father, and the the people were behind them. By this I assumed 2 things: the snakes are Oberyn's children and they seem to be from an official marriage, since they have the support of the people of Dorne and all. I have no idea how many are they and if they're only daughters. Oberyn said he had 8 daughters, but he didn't say how many sons he had. It is interesting that Ellaria apparently gets along well with her lover's official children, but I must say it wouldn't even surprised me if she were also friends with his widow. They seemed very open like that.

 

ETA: honestly, I don't even remember how many daughters Oberyn said he had, but I know he mentioned them.

Shimpy, it would make sense if LF were to align with Dorne, it is the safest place now for Sansa and they'd be received there like freaking heroes. The younger queen to replace Cersei must be Margy, but could also mean Dany.

Edited April 26, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[90PercentGravity]

I think we are supposed to think that Jorah is taking Tyrion to Westeros to claim his Lordship, but based on his ambiguous wording and the fact that he bound him rather than lopping off his head, I think he must be taking him to Dany. Why? I have no idea.

[Anothermi]

I didn't think anything but that Jorah was going to take Tyrion to Dany. Cersei's price for Tyrion's head didn't even cross my mind. Jorah looked to be moping (again) over Dany so what else was I to think?

I'm surprised at how many spitballs were both right... And at the same time wrong. This show.

[gingerella]

What does it say about me that when I saw Jorah in the brothel with the Mother of Dragons pole dancer my first thought was, "Hmmm, I wonder if Jorah did the Dany look alike to relieve all that Dany frustration the dude must have felt"...

*backs quietly out of the room hoping nobody notices what I just said out loud*

[ChocButterfly]

I think we are supposed to think that Jorah is taking Tyrion to Westeros to claim his Lordship, but based on his ambiguous wording and the fact that he bound him rather than lopping off his head, I think he must be taking him to Dany. Why? I have no idea.

You guys mentioned it here, he's taking Tyrion to Dany to get her pardon. Who made that spitball first? It was very accurate, I remember reading it. Now it makes sense.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, if Jorah were to deliver a Lannister, in Jorah's mind that might ingratiate him with Dany again.   I get the sense from that scene that Jorah has just been drunk off his ass since he was banished, as opposed to trying to haul it back to Westeros.   He had a pardon, he could have gone back there at any time, at least in theory.  

 

However, he does love Dany -- probably in a less paternal way than she'd like him to -- and he wants to be by her side.  The next best thing to giving Dany the Seven Kingdoms on a platter is to bring her the son of the man who slaughtered her family.   Now, we've already really covered why Dany is unlikely to kill him, but I can see why Jorah might think, "I bring you squirming and dissolute olive branch.  Sort of smelly and dirty.  Prone to whining when drunk, but astute when sober."  

 

Or maybe he thinks "Whee!  She can lop off the head of a Lannister and TAKE WHAT IS HERS WITH FIRE and....can I please come home, Kahleesi?"   

 

ChocButterfly, you were making me laugh my butt off in the episode thread with the stuff about Tryion and the flashing neon sign of "Guess who I am?  Well, let me hint really heavily!  Still no clue?  It starts with T and L!"  because seriously, he practically became the town crier on his identity.  

[janjan]

he's taking Tyrion to Dany to get her pardon. Who made that spitball first? It was very accurate, I remember reading it. Now it makes sense.

I did, O Choco, over on the episode thread. You may now bend the knee and swear fealty to my awesome expectorant powers, which were right for the first time ever. Well, maybe. We don't know yet for sure.

[gingerella]

All hail Janjan, First Expectorant of Her Name.

[stillshimpy]

All hail Janjan, First Expectorant of Her Name.

 

Ha!  Oh dear.  There's a nickname that will stick like epoxy.  

[ChocButterfly]

Ha! Can I call you that, Janjan?

 

ChocButterfly, you were making me laugh my butt off in the episode thread with the stuff about Tryion and the flashing neon sign of "Guess who I am?  Well, let me hint really heavily!  Still no clue?  It starts with T and L!"  because seriously, he practically became the town crier on his identity.

Yeah, I don't know if he actually wanted to get caught, because he's depressed and is still feeling guilty for killing Shae.

[janjan]

The great Casey Stengel once said, "If you expect to expectorate, make sure you spit in the right spot."

[janjan]

Spitball incoming!

 

What does LF gain from allying with Bolton? Nothing -- he's not allying with Bolton; he's arranging Bolton's assassination.

LF to the Fingerette: "There's no justice in the world unless we make it. You love your family. Avenge them." Fingerette thinks a minute and then resumes their journey to Winterfell. At the trot, unfortunately. She rides the trot very poorly - that must hurt.

 

What does LF gain from assassinating Bolton? Chaos. The Ladder.

Edited April 28, 2015 by janjan

[ChocButterfly]

What does LF gain from assassinating Bolton? Chaos. The Ladder. 

 

Oh, no he gains a lot. Check my post in the episode threat, I believe he and Sansa could get rid of the Boltons together, and with them out, he could have both the Vale and the North. So he has a lot to gain with Bolton's death.

The easiest way to get rid of all of them together would be poison, which is his usual way (with crazy Liza' s husband and then with Joffrey.). I'm sure Sansa still has that necklace somewhere...Hey, it was a stupid plot the first time, so probably the show will use it again!

 

The problem is I think his plan is going to backfire horribly somehow.

[gingerella]

I think we have discussed this in past seasons - probably when he and Varys have had convos - that LF thrives in chaos, nee, it is his raison d'etre for living. I think more than settling down with actual power, he loves the chase of power and the plotting and the scheming and he inches forward during the chaos he creates, slithering like the snake that he is, in between the cracks that his chaos creates amongst others. Whoa, I just blew my own mind, man.

So, uh, anyway, are you guys inferring that LF will help Sansa poison or kill the Boltons? I mean, they would have to kill both Roose and Ramsey, right? I know poison is the obvious method, but it seems that in A Show, disgusting monstrous people like that Boltons never get theirs, or it take forfuckingever for karma to show up.

[Anothermi]

...

The easiest way to get rid of all of them together would be poison, which is his usual way (with crazy Liza' s husband and then with Joffrey.). I'm sure Sansa still has that necklace somewhere...Hey, it was a stupid plot the first time, so probably the show will use it again!

 

No, that infamous necklace is, (thankfully) gone.

 

If you recall, Sir Dontos brought Sansa to Littlefinger who was hiding on a ship in the fog and among Stannis' ruined fleet in Blackwater Bay (or Harbour or whatever). LF paid and then killed Sir Dontos, Sansa protested and LF explained that dead men don't talk and proceeded to explain how her necklace, which he took from her neck and used to illustrate on, was fake (crush a jewel to powder), and contained poison. He then threw it down onto the late Sir Dontos' body leaving the dinghy to drift back to shore in a few days. This it did and the dead Sir Dontos and the necklace (which was easily recognized as the one Sansa wore at Joff's wedding) were referred to in evidence against Tyrion at his trial. 

 

LF will have to come up with a different far fetched piece of stupidity if he wants to poison the Boltons. Having said that, I doubt that he has any plans to assist Sansa in exacting revenge on the Boltons. We've never been shown his (nor Varys for that matter) backstage machinations, and I don't think we're seeing any here. This is just a chess move designed to draw out a counter move that will leave a vulnerability. Draw out whom I couldn't say, but I agree with the chaos comments and suspect this move is directed at more than one opponent in the game. 

 

The problem is I think his plan is going to backfire horribly somehow.

Well, If LF does have a plan I don't think Sansa will fare any better than her aunt Lyssa, so yeah.

[stillshimpy]

Well, If LF does have a plan I don't think Sansa will fare any better than her aunt Lyssa, so yeah.

 

There is that.  It isn't as if this story is above killing the entire lot of the Starks and the Stark children too (RIP Robb and Fetus Stark too).  

 

So yeah, I was wondering which of our major players would die this season and I can't help but wonder if Sansa's time may have come.  Death comes for everyone, maybe she will end up saying, "Today".   Brienne throws around "Til the end of my days" enough that I get decidedly nervous for her too.  

 

The story has kicked the crap out of Sansa for several seasons and she may have reached the end of her narrative use.  I just hope she gets to take out Bolton and Ramsay with her, because those bastards need to die.  

[DirewolfPup]

I'm leaning toward Littlefinger thinking/arranging the North to revolt against the Boltons or that Stannis will come through. Honestly, everything except Cat's death has gone 100% in LF's favor so far. When is this guy going to have a set back?  Maybe the North will be that mistake. A Show loves to remind us that the North is impossible to take or hold.

[WhiteStumbler]

DirewolfPup: Honestly, everything except Cat's death has gone 100% in LF's favor so far...

Yup, he has advanced farther than any individual character, from Master of Coin and pimp, to Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Regent (or whatever his title is) of the Vale. Climbing that laddah.

 

House Frey has grown as well, from being Lord of The Twins to Lord of the Twins and the Riverlands, but the shadow of House Bolton has grown the most, from one of the Stark bannermen to Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. <shudder>

[stillshimpy]

Oh...figured out how to edit!

What the....? Hey guys, posting from my phone while the electrical panel in my house is being replaced (and boy does it sound dire down there) ...so sorry for the erroneous quote post, that I now can't seem to edit....but something occurred to me....what if it isn't Mountainstein under that sheet?

What if it is Oberyn? Any chance, at all? It just looked like such a small lump for the Mountain.

Edited April 29, 2015 by SilverStormm
Fixed quote box

[ChocButterfly]

OBERYN!!!!!!!! Oh, Shimpy, how I wish you were right!!!

[Anothermi]

....but something occurred to me....what if it isn't Mountainstein under that sheet?

What if it is Oberyn? Any chance, at all? It just looked like such a small lump for the Mountain

I like this idea as far as it would put the lovely Oberyn back on my screen, but on the not-so-much side, he'd have been tampered with by Quyburn and would no longer be the lovely Oberyn. 

 

From the "over someone's dead body" side of things:  Ellaria, the Prince Doran and the people of Dorne wouldn't take kindly to not having Obyron's body returned to them to mourn. Prince Doran might take the insult sitting down - because that seems to be all he can do - but not! without a fight. That would be a HUGE insult, not to mention I can't see Ellaria (or the other Dorne dignitaries who came with them to King's Landing) leaving without it. So I'm ducking this spitball. 

Edited April 28, 2015 by Anothermi

[WhiteStumbler]

Oberyn? Hmmm... As much as I like the idea, there is this:

 

Arya: Could you bring back a man without a head? Not six times, just once.
Thoros: I don't think it works that way, child.

[90PercentGravity]

I sort of assumed he was stitching together pieces of people. Why else would he want that head? Maybe it is ned stark's body and that poor little dude's head.

[janjan]

I like this idea as far as it would put the lovely Oberyn back on my screen, but on the not-so-much side, he'd have been tampered with by Quyburn and would no longer be the lovely Oberyn.

Not to mention that his eyeballs are squashed in and his head kind of exploded. The rat's head is a possible replacement, but it would be more fitting on the Mountain. Whatever it is that's under the blanket, I hope it kills WWs.

[stillshimpy]

True.  Oberyn probably wouldn't be as much fun without a head.  

*sigh*

[Pallas]

You guys mentioned it here, he's taking Tyrion to Dany to get her pardon. Who made that spitball first?

 

White Stumbler and I did, in a sort of tag team effort, in the Speculation thread on April 10th.  While we were pacing around the Habitat, noses to the air, trying to catch a scent of the season to come, Stumbler proposed that Tyrion and Jorah could become road companions: Jorah in need of a job; Tyrion in need of a sellsword.  I loved the idea and invoked my hunch that Lannister-of-Essos would end up serving Dany, with Jorah perhaps bringing him to Dany as a way back into her good graces.

[DirewolfPup]

You guys are cracking me up! Let's play puzzle with all the dead characters!

 

Ned with Slynt's head

The wall abandoner from S01E01 with Rodrick's head

Robb Stark with a direwolf head! oh wait..... <weeps>

[Jan Snow]

Looking at the size of that thing under the sheet it can't be anything but Mountainstein. I mean he's bound to come back after that last scene in season four.

 

Cersei: "Will it make him weaker?"

Qyburn: "Oh no..."

[gingerella]

You guys are cracking me up! Let's play puzzle with all the dead characters!

Ned with Slynt's head

The wall abandoner from S01E01 with Rodrick's head

Robb Stark with a direwolf head! oh wait..... <weeps>

Nay! I propose making a box of Animal Crackers composed of decomposing characters from A Show...;)

Or you could make some GoT Dead Folks Colorforms, remember those?

Edited April 29, 2015 by gingerella

[stillshimpy]

Oh fun.   We could have Tragestein.  A character pieced together from Tragedies we have known.  

 

Something totally needs to have Ser Roderick's sideburns.  Those things were a character unto themselves and I always expected them to have dialogue. 

 

Say, over in the episode thread we were pondering what would make Jon pick up Bear Island's sword and head to Winterfell with Stannis.   That poses the age old (okay seasons old) problem:  How to keep any of the kids who grew up together as Ned's children from ever clapping eyes on each other simultaneously.   Other than Rickon the Banished to Umbertown, that is, who got to hang out with a sibling for a long time.  

 

But Sansa is at Winterfell and one Stark child seems to handily repel another, unless it's Jon, who is allowed to be glimpsed a distance a la Bran his journey to Rootville.   So I guess there's no impediment.  

[WhiteStumbler]

Something is bugging me today re: LF's "plan" -- If he ultimately wants to ally with Stannis and have Sansa as Wadreness of the North, and he knows that Stannis & Co. are garrisoning at Castle Black, and he knows that the Boltons are universally reviled in the North, then why not cut the Dr. Evil levels of plot complexity and just go to Stannis and offer a straight exchange? In return for recognizing Sansa as Wardeness of the North and Lady of Winterfell, Stannis would get the support of the old school "Starks of Winterfell are my liege" surviving Northern lords.

 

Another thing I was noodling on was inspired by LFs line "The last time the Lords of the Eyrie formed an alliance with the Lords of the North, they brought down the greatest dynasty this world has ever known." I was thinking that they also had the Lords of the Riverlands on their side, and that a lot of the Lords of the North were ripped to pieces at the Red Wedding. So of the kingdoms of Westeros, the only large remaining armies that haven't suffered significant losses in the War of the Five Kings are Dorne, The Eyrie, and the army that the Karstarks took home with them after Robb executed their Lord.

 

As Stannis moves south, the only remaining large force in the North capable of offering stout resistance to the WWs is going to be the Karstarks. I wonder how the Karstarks are going to feel about Sansa Stark, sister to the man who beheaded their Lord, emerging to claim the Wardeness of the North title?

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, pretty obviously on that one LF is telling, at absolute best, a partial truth. He wouldn't back Stannis back in the time of knifey , and I don't think he is now either.

I think he told Sansa what he thought would keep ger on his side, although I think it is possible LF intends to install Sansa as some kind of head of Winterfell.

I think it is also possible that LF just wants armed conflicts to continue so the participants can continue to take each other out of the battle for power.

[janjan]

I'm still perplexed about why Stannis thought he needed the wildlings to fight with him. Did Mance Rayder die in a plot hole?

[ChocButterfly]

I'm still perplexed about why Stannis thought he needed the wildlings to fight with him. Did Mance Rayder die in a plot hole?

Hahaha!!! You guys are hilarious!!! Mance fell in a plot hole!!!! Hahaha! Awsome, Janjan!

[stillshimpy]

I'm hanging out waiting for a closing (yaaaaaay team!) so I have nothing better to do right now than kill time.  This in response to Lywela's post in the Sons of the Harpy thread regarding what might have gone down between Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.  Here we go, all quotes to follow are from Lywela]/b].  

 

 

 

I just mean, I doubt it was a straightforward case of two despicable people creating murder and mayhem and not caring. Show has been on long enough for us to know that few things are that simple. Characters do stuff, often without thinking it through or being aware of all the facts, and their actions have consequences, usually massively unforeseen.

 

Again, no , in my opinion,  for one of the principal players in this little ill-conceived whatever it was.  Abduction and rape, love for the ages, whatever.  One participant cannot ever be given a pass card on "But who could have foreseen that?"  That's always going to be Rhaegar.  I don't care how poetic his soul was.  How much he liked music or what a cuddly little man he was or wasn't.  

 

He was married.  He had children.  He was due to inherit a Kingdom.  He was married to a woman who also had a family he knew her would slight and that Dorne would not fucking take kindly to this.  That actually was the sort of thing that starts wars.  Could he have foreseen Robert Baratheon being almost completely unable to accept that Lyanna just wasn't that into him?  That's not actually going too far out there either.  

 

Rhaegar would know he was flipping the big bird to a Kingdom (Dorne) and a house Baratheon and Stark (who guess what, it's known insult to dishonor a woman like that, because that what that is).  So the only way to give Grown Ass Man with Children Rhaegar any of that benefit of "Characters do stuff, not knowing what it could bring about" pass is if he was a complete and utter moron.  An idiot without equal.  Or, more likely: because he was going to be King he bloody well knew all of that and thought he could get away with it because of that.  

 

No pass from me. Ever.  

 

 

 

Cat arrested Tyrion on the King's Road, for what she thought were good reasons,

 

Here's something that always seems to get forgotten in that one and it's a very important part: Even overly impulsive Catelyn tried to just avoid Tyrion and it was his "Hail, Lady Stark! Hello, hello, hello!" stuff that brought that about.  Now, I grant you, by the time Cat is at the Vale, she has to know she has made a mistake and she doesn't then go to Tyrion and say, "Seven gods and forty monsters, I have screwed up on an Epic scale.  Will you help me set this right?"   Even though Tryion has made it abundantly clear that he would be willing to consider that as an option.  

 

Also, she thought she was dealing with the family that had murdered the Hand of the King and committed treason, as well as attempted to kill her child.   Her reasons were far better than "You sure are pretty! Let's bone!"  but I'll grant you that she screwed up, just again, different area and reasons and not comparable to "you can't keep it your pants".  

 

 

 

Oberyn offered himself as Tyrion's champion for what he thought were good reasons and Myrcella is in danger as a result - Tyrion would never have foreseen that when he accepted the offer.

 

Not comparable.  As pointed out by the King or Crown Prince of Dorne from his wheelchair:  It was a trial by combat to the death.  That was one fucking foreseeable consequence and informed choice as to "what could go wrong? Let's do stuff willy nilly."  

 

 

 

And so on. I would imagine that neither Rhaegar

 

Already discussed how crappy of a human being Rhaegar is, no matter what.  Poetry, music, giving to buskers, I don't care.  At the absolute best he thought he could get away with a known insult, of really serious proportions, because he was to be King.  That's it.  

 

 

 

nor Lyanna

 

This is one participant we agree upon in all of this who might be able to be granted a moment or two of "she was in love, how could she know?"  She had no idea what it really meant to be married.  Sansa's Stark genetic makeup suggests that Lyanna Stark might have been fond of the fairy tale of a romantic nature.  She might not have gotten (even from the chilled silence of the crowd) that what Rhaegar did with roses was the ultimate Phallus Maneuver.   

 

I'm sure kingdoms have some version of the legend of Helen of Troy.  A kid might be flattered, and not get how gross it is that a married man with responsibilities and children decided to publicly lay claim to her lady parts in such a fashion, again, probably because he thought could get away with it because of impending Kingdom.  Oh by the way?  Flashbacks from the early parts of the season suggest that his wife was not his first intended (that would Cersei, apparently) ....so he might have done something like this before.  And no, that doesn't then mean (to me) that "well then he might not have known..." it would be closer to "he knew he got away with it." 

 

 But Lyanna Stark , if she was like Sansa, likely took it as "My sweet prince! He chose me over all, he chose me over throne!" because she was an adolescent in all likelihood and only children get the excuse of "how could they have known" when dealing with this kind of "insult the powerful families of the world, what could go wrong?"  in this instance from me.  

 

I get that you feel differently, and that's cool.  It's a far more romantic eye than I personally have, so you know, sure they were in love.  How could they know?  At least one of them should have known and really?  Then yes, by the time dad and brother are cooked alive (jeez, think of believing you caused that to happen to your father....wow....holy crap, that one almost makes me feel sorry for Lyanna, no matter what).

 

But yes, I find it despicable on the part of Rhaegar and probably closer to pitiable or pathetic on the part of Lyanna if they really did get together willingly on her part.  

 

By the way, what kind of damned  pheromones was Lynna Stark in possession of, because between Rhaegar and Robert (obessessed forever)....I'm thinking they must have been mighty.  Mightier than her common sense, if LF's pitying look (which might have informed the bullshit he handed her several minutes later) is to be believed. 

 

He appealed to her not-so-inner romantic child and that's the only pass I would be able to give Lyanna and it is a very small pass indeed when the people started dying in droves.  For all I know, she took her own life out of remorse.  

 

ETA: I am sorry about all the edits, guy, I'm having a problem with my cursor jumping to different points in the post (an issue with my system, not the board) and since I type very quickly ,I end up banging out a word or two in the wrong sentence, pretty much constantly. 

Edited May 6, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Llywela]

Eh, I don't really know enough or care enough to get into a deep debate about it. I just meant that I doubt these two individuals were any better or worse than anyone else we've met in this story - which is full of people who should know better making stupid and dangerous decisions - and I also doubt that we have anything even approaching a full picture of what happened back then. We've been tossed a few fragments of their story, from varying viewpoints, none particularly objective, but haven't seen it and therefore can't really know for sure who either of them actually was, or why they did anything that they did. That's all. History is always biased, and that includes the history of Westeros.

[stillshimpy]

Eh, I don't really know enough or care enough to get into a deep debate about it. I just meant that I doubt these two individuals were any better or worse than anyone else we've met in this story

 

I think I understand what you meant, and above are the reason  I disagree.  I truly don't think I'm missing your point, we just hold differing opinions.  I think there are worse people in the story, clearly.  I mean, we have someone who liked to torture women to death, and another guy who likes to skin people alive and then eat a big meal.  

 

There are worse people in this story, but "good and decent, acting without malice" isn't to be confused with "slightly less reprehensible than skinning people alive" in most cases.  Also, yet another damning nail in Rhaegar's coffin for me.  Apparently his daddy had taken to burning people alive.  So yeah, I think there were a few reasons why Rhaegar thought he could just get away with it.  

 

There are few who will risk being burned alive for a matter of honor.  Interesting that he chose the girl from a family most likely to go all "Okay, burn me alive!"  and we heard Selmy tell Dany that her father had been burning his enemies alive for a while. 

[Llywela]

Oh, I'm not saying I think they were good, decent and acting without malice. Rhaegar may well have been the monster Robert and Ned saw him as. He may equally have been the hero Dany wants to believe in, or anything in between; Lyanna may have been anything from innocent victim to fully cognizant participant - we don't know enough about them or their motives to know either way, that's really my point. It all happened a long time ago and all we know are bits and pieces various people have said, none of it without bias, and none of it enough to form a clear picture. That muddiness interests me (I can't help it; I trained as a historian, we were trained to view all evidence through a critical eye) because it rings so true. Take ten witnesses to a major incident, and no two will give the exact same story - they all saw it from a different angle, through their own preconceived beliefs and prejudices. Add twenty years of fading memory and digging in...and that's what's going on here.

 

I like about this story that it gives these hints at a messy, complicated past that can never be fully understood because no one has all the pieces of the puzzle. And all the narrators are unreliable. Like...there are so many characters in the show right now who might, in theory, make perfect allies - but it'll never happen because even if they meet, they bring with them so much baggage and prejudice and misunderstanding, it bogs them down, forces them apart. Imperfect people making imperfect choices whose consequences spin off in all directions.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Llywela

[WhiteStumbler]

Fascinating conversation guys -- thanks!

 

stillshimpy: the person most likely to know Jon's story is Benjen Stark.

Another person who might know something about He Who Knows Nuthin'? Maester Aemon.

 

RE: Mel's magic -- so I think she needs 'King's blood" to make a Smokey or to do the leach trick. For context , here is more of their dialogue at the beach as Mel was leaving to buy Gendry from BwoB...

 

Stannis: My enemies think they've destroyed me. They're laughing at me the way Renly laughed at me. I want Joffrey dead. I want Robb Stark dead. Make me another “son”.
Melisandre: I cannot.
Stannis: Why?
Mel: You don't have the strength. It would kill you.
Stannis: I'm not so easily killed. Men have been trying for years. (S grabs M, whispers in her ear) I want you.
Mel: (Pushes Stannis back to arms length) Your fires burn low, my king. There is another way. A better way.
Stannis: You told me your magic requires a king's blood.
Mel: Yes.

Stannis: I'm the one true king.
Mel: You are. But there are others with your blood in their veins. You will sit on the Iron Throne, but first there must be sacrifices. The Lord of Light demands it.

 

She may be able to do other things w/o "King" brand blood, but Smokey and the Leaches seems to require it.

[stillshimpy]

She may be able to do other things w/o "King" brand blood, but Smokey and the Leaches seems to require it.

 

Hmmm.  Okay, that would seem to suggest that both Smokey and Deadly Hibachi Grillin' require a "King's Blood"....but it is at a least a little interesting that Stannis isn't King.  I mean, he is for the intents of the spell and her speech, but he's not otherwise. 

 

And if she just tried to bone Jon because he's Rhaegar Targaryen's son and therefore has the blood of a King, then wouldn't Robert be the usurper and not the owner of the "one true king" blood type (presumably blue)?  

 

So if it's the blood Baratheon she needs, what the fuck does that mean at this point in the story?  Are we going to have to go back to the age old "Jon is actually Robert and Lyanna's bastard child" and she was abducted after lusty Robert had a fling with her?  

 

There's a reason I don't like Jon Snuh all that much.  When he's not boring me to tears, he's really annoying me because of shit like that.  

 

Or maybe the Blood of King is not quite so literal and it just means the blood someone who can storm the Throne and wait for Robert Baratheon to show up and claim the Throne....?  Which could mean any Stark or derivative thereof.  

 

As to what Aemon might or might not know.  Well, he was a brother of the Night's watch with Benjen, who is really the only person I could see Ned confiding the specifics to, even if they are and always have been "he's my bastard son".   

Edited May 6, 2015 by stillshimpy

[gingerella]

So if it's the blood Baratheon she needs, what the fuck does that mean at this point in the story?  Are we going to have to go back to the age old "Jon is actually Robert and Lyanna's bastard child" and she was abducted after lusty Robert had a fling with her? 

 

There's a reason I don't like Jon Snuh all that much.  When he's not boring me to tears, he's really annoying me because of shit like that.

Well, to be fair, that isn't exactly his fault now, is it? Its the fault of the story. If I knew that these sort of queries would eventually be answered, I would have more faith in A Show, but I'm not so sure they will ever be answered, and that? Will piss A Viewer off forever. Just sayin'.

[stillshimpy]

Heh, fair point, it's not the fault of the character.  It is, however, a big part of the reason I dislike nearly all stories with Jon because it will always come back to this and the story has officially taken to fucking with us, on purpose.  

 

It's like Paolo and Nicki on Lost:  Cut the shit already, story and get to the point here.  

[WhiteStumbler]

Who I miss the most: We have lost like 60 characters over 4+ seasons -- so many to choose from!

Renly would have been a great King in a time of peace, but given the current shitstorm in the 7K and the developing shitstorm North of the Wall, I don't think he would have been able to hack it. He would have been another Orys I...

Tywin: Orys I was just. Everyone applauded his reforms, nobles and commoners alike, but he wasn't just for long. He was murdered in his sleep after less than a year by his own brother. Was that truly just of him? To abandon his subjects to an evil that he was too gullible to recognize?

As Jaime said, Renly "Wasn't fit to rule over anything more important than a 12-course meal."

 

Top 10 Characters I Miss (no order): Syrio Forel (sorry, I think he is dead), Maester Luwin, Khal Drogo, Eddard Stark, Renly B. (ETA - I miss him, just don't think he was the right King for these times), Catelyn Stark, Ld Cmdr Mormont, Robb Stark, The Hound (sorry, I think he is dead also), Tywin Lannister.

Edited May 7, 2015 by WhiteStumbler