Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[gingerella]

Then, Varys = looneyballs

Wait, what?!? Varys is a Targ? WTF, man, is this true? Because I rather thought it was "Kill all the Targs!" was standard operating procedure around Westeros. Wasn't he one of the whispering gruesome twosome discussing Dany's demise in the Dragon dungeon way back in like S1?  Plus, regardless of his bloodlines, I don't think Varys is crazy at all. He was abused in the most horrible of ways as a child, but seems to have managed to keep his cool and is a smart, observant and cunning planner of various shit that I usually enjoy watching.  But nutjob? No way.

[ChocButterfly]

From the episode thread, arry the orphan:

In Season 1 it looked like Varys was the big puppet master orchestrating the Dothraki invasion and bringing war to the Seven Kingdoms. LF outplayed him completely (in the start-a-war-for-personal-profit-game), but Varys still has his friends overseas.

 

Huh?? I still don't understand why was Varys involved in Dany's marriage if he clearly doesn't want her to come to Westeros because of her dragons. He hates magic, and he warned Tyrion about her. Of course, maybe he wanted Dany's brother on the throne and Dany still didn't have any dragons way back then. But if Varys wanted Dany's brother for the throne, that's worst. If he really was trying to put that incompetent in charge of the 7 Kingdoms, then Varys is a real IDIOT.

 

I just don't understand that whole plot, I'm very confused. First, it seemed Varys was friends with the guy who orchestrated the Dothraki wedding, so Varys clearly wanted Dany's crazy brother back. Wasn't that the guy Arya saw talking to Varys in the Casttle basement? Is this confirmed? But then, Varys sent the assassin to Dany and that was BEFORE dragons, and wasn't that also before Viserys death? So, What gives??

Edited May 5, 2014 by ChocButterfly

[Llywela]

Then, Varys = looneyballs,

Wait, what?!? Varys is a Targ? WTF, man, is this true?

I think abelard is confusing Varys with Viserys. ;)

[arry the orphan]

It really doesn't make much sense:

 

Varys's friend brokered the alliance between Khal Drogo and Viserys.

Then, Jorah (Vary's spy) told Robert about the arranged marriage between Drogo and Dany.

Then, Varys (on Roberts order) set up the wine merchant to kill Dany. (and Jorah stopped it)

That would have finally lead to the Dothraki invasion, if the witch hadn't stopped it.

 

Dany said in the pilot that they have lived over a year in the villa of Varys' friend. Varys and his friend must have known that Viserys wouldn't be able to lead a Dothraki army. They also must have known that the Dothraki have no ships. So what was their plan? If that really was all part of a plan, then that storyline is even more convoluted then everything LF has done.

Edited May 5, 2014 by arry the orphan

[DirewolfPup]

The TWoP has speculated before about Varys and his intentions. One popular theory was that Varys was friends with the one guy (Illyrio? The guy who gave them dragon eggs and kept Viserys and Dany safe) only to get intel on the goings on in the East. Basically, a ruse.

 

Also, Viserys was killed before the attempt on Dany. Viserys was crowned S01E06 (one of my all time favorites). The wine merchant didn't happen until epidsode 7 or 8.

[stillshimpy]

Vary's friend was Ilyrio.  

 

It actually all makes sense if Varys approached Ilyrio -- as a scam -- after "a little bird" told him that Illyrio was trying to promote Viserys as a viable King for the Iron Throne.  

 

So the original teams were:  Robert Baratheon, Varys, Jorah on Team "Keep the Baratheons in Power".  Remember, Varys "serves the realm" so he was tricking Ilyrio, because wars do not serve the realm.  

 

On team: Let's Put Viserys on Throne! We had Ilyrio and any other Targ royalists.  Why would he want Viserys as King?  Because he was a vainglorious nincompoop who would have been easily flattered and easily enough controlled once installed.  But we do know Illyrio wanted Viserys on the throne, thanks to that long ago exchange in the tunnels, by the dragon skull, between Varys and Ilyrio.  Makes perfect sense if you just keep in mind that Varys does hate magic, serves the realm and was simply lying his ass off about supporting Viserys.  

 

Which we know to be the case, because he did relay all of Jorah's information and sent an assassin after Dany even after Viserys was dead.  

 

It makes sense, you just have to remember the LYING part of it.  

Edited May 5, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

It makes sense, you just have to remember the LYING part of it.

 

This is an extremely helpful tip when dealing with either Varys or Littlefinger.  It's one reason I don't take as gospel every detail Littlefinger spilled to Sansa -- excuse me, his niece -- about the assassination plot.  Olenna involvement, yes; necklace locked and loaded, I guess; but Dontos's role may have been more chivalrous, even with his request for payment at the end.  Especially as Littlefinger wanted to impress on Sansa that it was he alone who had, ever and always, her interests at heart.  ("Do put up you cloak, dear girl.  There are bad men, very near you, who resent beautiful rich maidens...")  

 

He's like Rolf, the "Sixteen Going on Seventeen" messenger boy.  ("Your life, little girl, is an empty page/that men will want to write on...") Everything but the liederhosen.  

[arry the orphan]

 

It actually all makes sense if Varys approached Ilyrio -- as a scam -- after "a little bird" told him that Illyrio was trying to promote Viserys as a viable King for the Iron Throne.

 

Possible. But LF threatend Varys over his meeting with Ilyrio. He basically said, that if he revealed this acquaintance then Varys might be in serious trouble. And Varys looked "momentarily" scared. It's possible that Varys was just shocked that LF knew so much about his business.

Edited May 5, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Pallas]

I think Varys could have been shocked by a couple of things: that Littlefinger had Varys "made" as consorting with an enemy of the state (Illyrio); and that Littlefinger had that kind of good intelligence.  But also, Varys may have (uncharacteristically) displayed his shock in order to feed Littlefinger's arrogance.  Was it Olenna to whom Varys said, "He (Littlefinger) does have a weakness"?  From what we've seen, Varys may know that weakness to be Littlefinger's need to evoke shock and awe and to receive his due, even at the risk of exposing his schemes and endgame.  Or maybe it's just the Tully women.  

[gingerella]

So I'm thinking of the convo Jojen and Bran had a while back, when Jojen was trying to convince Bran he was "the most special one of all" and that Bran had powers that went way past what Jojen and people like him could do.  Watching Bran not only warg Hodor, a human, but also appear to get Hodor to do things Bran could not do himself - Hodor calming down enough to break the chains holding him prisoner, then killing Locke before he hurt Bran - this is a big fucking deal, people!  Isn't it?  To me, what this means is that Bran can actually take over another person and have them do his bidding for him when he is physically unable to do so himself, unless it only works on Hodor because he has a simple mind and therefore is more easily taken over?  I'm not sure, I'm still working this one out in my head, but it seems like it's hugely important as far as the Magic lining up one more click on A Show's Rubik Cube, yes?

 

Also, we see Ghost, but did we see Summer at all? I didn't, but I wasn't watching the entire time because when it's really violent or gross  tend to hide behind my hand. Or an iPad. Or a magazine. Or something like that. Is Summer still there?  It would surprise me that Summer wouldn't stay with Ghost since they are siblings, but perhaps Summer is out there waiting to rendezvous with Bran?  Last week, Summer only got caught, right?  Not actually killed, right?

[AlphaLine]

I want to talk a little about this whole 'money' situation that has developed, and it's implications.

 

So, apparently, the Lannister gold mines have run out 3 years ago. How this is apparently a secret is beyond me, but anyway lets buy it and so only Tywin knows ( and now Cersei ). So.. how has Tywin been paying for his war and royal weddings and whatnot? By secretly borrowing money from the Iron bank and passing it off as his own? That doesn't make much sense . By the way, gold mines are not the source of income. Well they can be, but only a minor part, a lord makes his money from taxes on agriculture and trade and stuff. And all the remaining lords of Westeros manage to do just fine without gold mines. 

 

So now Tywin can't pay the Iron bank back, and needs the Tyrells' money. Is that the angle we are going for? So do the Tyrells have gold mines now? This is ridiculous. I bet the whole gold mines = money thing was thought out by people who think printing money = more money. Anyway, I find the constant bickering about money to be weird. How many times have you seen Robb Stark, King Greyjoy or Lord Bolton saying 'Oh nooes. We have no money!'. By the way.. that stuff about the Iron bank keeping gold in floating barges is stupid too. Real banks don't keep very much in liquid cash at all, let alone in a place where it can be easily pilfered and/or drowned.

 

I guess the only point of the storyline is that the Iron bank will now support someone else. And from the previous episode that seems to be Stannis. Only, that doesn't make much sense either. Stannis doesn't have the throne, any money, or an army. ( Seems like Melisandre spent the last of his money buying Gendry for two big bags of gold. Or they needed to buy lots of firewood for burning people ). And what exactly is Stannis' sales pitch going to be? Give me money, or burn!

 

There has been some speculation that Davos and his pirate friend are just going to steal gold from the floating barges rather than applying for a loan. But I don't think that is so, but then I don't know why the Iron bank would give Stannis a loan either. Let's assume he doesn't just waste the money on burnings/etc. and actually captures Westeros ( somehow ), so how is he going to repay the loan? Using captured Lannister gold mines? Oh wait, that's not there anymore. I think, if the Iron bank should support anyone ( Not-Lannister ), they should support Dany! She already has an army, ships, plenty of money from sacking slave cities, and most importantly will not burn them for being infidels afterwards.

 

Bottom line is that Stannis needs to offer the Iron bank something big, if he wants to get his loan. And here is my prediction. It's a big one, but I think it's rather neat and ties into the Dany story. With Dany disrupting the slave trade all over the place, there's a big demand for new slaves. Stannis will offer to sell the population of King's Landing into slavery in return for their help to seize the Iron throne. That's probably a good enough offer for the Iron bank to jump at. And also, it will finally give Dany a reason to go to Westeros. See, her whole thing in the east about 'freeing slaves' just doesn't have much appeal in Westeros since there are no slaves in the first place. But if there are slaves in Westeros, then she can finally get off her butt and do something about it. Dany is practically the only ruler to understand there is more to ruling than having a claim and some army. Rescuing slaves in Westeros will fit into her story arc very nicely.

 

I want to write a little rant about Dany, but that can wait for another time..

[abelard]

I think abelard is confusing Varys with Viserys. ;)

Oh whoops, yup!!  Varys is just a spider, not a dragon :). 

[WhiteStumbler]

gingerella:

"Also, we see Ghost, but did we see Summer at all?"

We didn't see him/her after Summer was captured, but Bran did say, after agreeing to leave with the Reeds, 'we need to free Summer' or words to that effect. Summer is with Bran.

Not sure if Bran can "warg" anyone he wants. He can get inside Hodor because... Hodor is simple? Or Bran has known him for years? Or both? I don't think Bran could get into Locke, for instance, and make him kill himself.

[Snowblack]

Alphaline, I actually like the brief flash of realism...a government actually worried about how it's going to pay its debts.  Except the Iron Bank will have the monarchy overthrown for non-payment; a pretty tough penalty for default.  I was thinking that the Iron Bank would use Stannis and Davos as collectors of a sort.  The bank uses its resources to help Stannis win the throne, and in return Stannis repays the debt (and then some, no doubt) that would otherwise be a problem to collect using the kingdom's revenues.  And if we are to assume that the Lannisters' cash flow problem isn't common knowledge, the Iron Bank has no reason to be concerned about the kingdom's wealth.

[AlphaLine]

Alphaline, I actually like the brief flash of realism...a government actually worried about how it's going to pay its debts.  Except the Iron Bank will have the monarchy overthrown for non-payment; a pretty tough penalty for default.  I was thinking that the Iron Bank would use Stannis and Davos as collectors of a sort.  The bank uses its resources to help Stannis win the throne, and in return Stannis repays the debt (and then some, no doubt) that would otherwise be a problem to collect using the kingdom's revenues.  And if we are to assume that the Lannisters' cash flow problem isn't common knowledge, the Iron Bank has no reason to be concerned about the kingdom's wealth.

Agreed that the Iron Bank would use 'collectors' to get their money back. The only problem is, why Stannis? Stannis has nothing and no one, and even if he manages to capture the throne he won't be in any better position than the Lannisters are in now. In fact he would be worse off, because of another war.

 

Point is that I don't see any sense in the Iron Bank giving a loan to Stannis period, unless he promises them something really big ( my prediction about the slaves ). Of course, they could refuse him, meaning that Stannis starts roaming around looking for money and rambling about his 'claim'.

 

I also find it unrealistic that people would not know about the gold mines running out years ago. There are probably thousands of miners employed there and people talk, you know.

[Ariadne]

I have some speculation about Robin Arryn. What if he is actually Littlefinger's son? Lysa mentioned that they had their wedding night long ago - so they've slept together before. Robin has the same hair colour as Littlefinger and Baelish seemed genuinely affectionate with the boy. His plan could be to get rid of Lysa and rule the vale as Robin's 'regent', then marrying Sansa to Robin would unite the North and the Vale together and if anything happened to the Tully brother that the Frey's have prisoner (can't remember his name) Sansa and Robin could be co-heirs to the Riverlands as well. That's quite a powerful alliance he's putting together. Just some spec, but he must have a plan in order to have 'everything'.

[DirewolfPup]

When the Iron Bank was mentioned in Season 3 (can't remember when), they said that when you cannot pay your debts to the bank, they fund your enemies. They'll take your life away. Reminds me of my student loans...

 

Basically, they're saying that decimating the loan deferrers is payment enough. If the Iron Bank decides that Tywin has taken too much and paid too little back, they'd just give Stannis the money to take King's Landing.

[MrMicrophone]

Alpha,

Impressing people is very important for early Banks. Hell, if you've ever seen the Wells Fargo in San Francisco? Really, really glitz and glam -- look at how impressive, and how much we can afford to spend! The Iron Bank is merely "impressing" with liquid assets.

 

Wild-Ass Spec: No one knows about Tywin's gold mines running dry because he's using actual Bred Dwarves (small humans, around four foot high, like the ones in real life) who he keeps locked in/near the mines all the time. Soldiers bring in food, take out gold. 

 

I agree that most places are keeping themselves running by having lands and sheep (or farms). However, that's based on a more feudalistic society than the Lannisters are using -- they've been hiring mercenaries, who run on Real Gold, not on Lordships and Duty. I also assume that the Starks and others have some cash money (that they've collected over a larger period of time than the Lannisters, who have been busy lending to the king).

[arry the orphan]

Dany mentioned in the pilot that she and her brother had been Illyrios guests for more than a year. Viserys was quite an idiot, but even he would not have been stupid enough to believe that the Iron Bank would give him gold to hire mercenaries and invade the Seven Kingdoms. In Ned's first council meeting LF mentionend that the crown is six million in debt (three million to Tywin Lannister). So lets assume Robert already owed the Iron Bank three million gold. It was reasonable to believe that he could repay them and therefore the Bank would not gain anything by supporting his enemies.

 

Tyrion mentioned in S3 that they owe the Iron Bank TENS of millions. Tywin said last episode that it was "a tremendous amount". But war costs a lot of money and the war is over and the Lannisters have won. Why would the Iron Bank believe that their chance to get the gold back would be higher when they help prolonging the war by supporting Stannis? Unless Stannis promises them something ridiculous like Casterly Rock and all the gold mines in Westeros in return, he won't get anything from them.

Edited May 6, 2014 by arry the orphan

[WhiteStumbler]

 

(relocated from episode thread)

stillshimpy:

"Gendry remembered Jon Arryn visiting him."

 

Gendry! Where's Gendry?!?

Where's Yara? Sailing to the Dreadfort?

Why didn't they show The Eyrie in the opening? Annoying.

 

Who else haven't we seen this season?

Lancel Lannister. I liked that guy. He was good a grovelling to Tyrion, and he showed some bravery outside of the gate at the Battle of Blackwater, hacking away until he takes an arrow to the shoulder.

Where are the Brotherhood w/o Banners? Getting drunk and/or resurrected by the LoL?

No Frey sightings so far (applause).

No Blackfish, either. Booooooo!

No Rickon / Osha / Shaggydog. Probably on the way to Last Heath? A check-in would be nice, otherwise I wonder if the Thenn didn't find, kill, and eat them.

Mance Rayder, moooovvvviiiinnnnggg sssssllllooooowwwwllllyyyy sssssssooooooouuuuuuttttthhhhhh?

 

Permanent (apparently) Members of MIA Westeros:

Nymeria.

Jon Umber.  Maybe he reappears when he meets up (hopehopehope) with Rickon & co?

Benjen Stark.

The Hill Tribes.

Who else is MIA?

Edited May 9, 2014 by Which Tyler

[90PercentGravity]

We know the fate of the hill tribes. Tywin paid them off and sent them back after Tyrion was relieved of his duties as HotK.

[Llywela]

I don't think we saw Lancel last season, either - has he been seen at all since Cersei hit him in his wound after the Battle of Blackwater?

[arry the orphan]

From the episode thread

 

 

Actually, that raises a new question about what Tywin's plans for the North going forward are now.  Bolton was named Warden temporarily, with the understand that the Lannisters would get it once Tywin had raised somebody he trusted to take up the job (nobody ever raised the issue that there was like a 50/50 shot that any child Tyrion and Sansa had would also be a dwarf, though I suppose they could have just kept producing them until one who wasn't was delivered), but that would seem to be out the window at this point.

 

I think that Tywin would not have minded if Tyrions and Sansas son had been a "dwarf". It just would have added an extra level of humilation to the Starks and the Northerners. A little person is not fit to rule Casterly Rock and the West, but for the North and Winterfell its good enough.

 

For now I think Tywin has no plans for the North at all. The Greyjoys and Boltons are still fighting. The Wildlings are invading and Winter is coming (even slooowwer than Mance Rayder). Tywin can just wait and watch. Whoever survives in the North will be no threat to the South (except perhaps the WW).

Edited May 6, 2014 by arry the orphan

[WhiteStumbler]

We know the fate of the hill tribes. Tywin paid them off and sent them back after Tyrion was relieved of his duties as HotK.

That's right! Thanks for that. Maybe they will reappear in the narrative since Sansa is in the Vale and The Hound and Arya are heading there?

 

I don't think we saw Lancel last season, either - has he been seen at all since Cersei hit him in his wound after the Battle of Blackwater?

Zero Lancel sightings in S3 that I can recall. Last seen screaming in pain on the floor after Cersei hit him.

[RadiantAerynSun]

I for one miss Lancel. Always good for a laugh!

[arry the orphan]

Yeah, Tyrion could have learned a thing or two from Lancel on how to be a good cup bearer for the king.

 

 

By the way.. that stuff about the Iron bank keeping gold in floating barges is stupid too. Real banks don't keep very much in liquid cash at all, let alone in a place where it can be easily pilfered and/or drowned.

 

I am not sure about that. Firstly, I think Davos just said that it doesn't make a difference whether you are a smuggler or a pirate: Don't sail to close to a ship from the Iron Bank that transports gold!!! And I think in that setting physical gold (cash!) is quite important! There is no paper money in that world. So I guess there are a lot of ships with gold on board sailing between Bravos and Westeros. Davos's pirate friends might attack one of them.

 

 

With Dany disrupting the slave trade all over the place, there's a big demand for new slaves. Stannis will offer to sell the population of King's Landing into slavery in return for their help to seize the Iron throne. That's probably a good enough offer for the Iron bank to jump at. And also, it will finally give Dany a reason to go to Westeros.

 

Well, Stannis needs the population of Kings Landing or else he would rule over an empty city, but I agree that the Iron Bank needs something big from him in order to consider funding his war. So policy change on slavery might be one of their conditions. But then again Westeros is very anti-slavery (Ned wanted to execute Jorah for selling to slavers and Talisa came to Westeros, because she never wanted to live in a city with slaves again). And introducing slavery in Dany's homeland, seems more than just poking a sleeping (or distracted) dragon. "He the crazy lady with the dragons hates slavery. Lets enslave her hometown!).

Edited May 6, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Pallas]

I think that Tywin would not have minded if Tyrions and Sansas son had been a "dwarf". It just would have added an extra level of humilation to the Starks and the Northerners. A little person is not fit to rule Casterly Rock and the West, but for the North and Winterfell its good enough.

 

I agree, arry.  I think it's even possible that Tywin -- never one for a purely symbolic gesture where a crushing blow could be delivered -- nonetheless permitted himself the smallest of smiles at the prospects of a North ruled for generations by a succession of halfmen. Lannister-Starks: "The Stark name, to befit what they are. The Lannister name, as a reminder of all that they lack."  

[Mr. Berns]

Maybe Varys and Illyrio were working together in insuring the extinction of the targaryen line.

 

Illyrio kept them close, but he wouldn´t be responsible for their murder. He brokered Dany's marriage and gave the Iron Thorne an excuse to have them both killed. He knew the news of the Dothraki army would reach King Robert's ears and they would send an assasin. Varys was in the counsil promoting this assesination.

 

It might seem like an elaborate plan, but if we have learned something from game of thrones is that these type of plans are all around, no one wants to have blood on their hands or be shunned as a murderer: Cercei killing Robert by insuring he gets drunk during his hunt, little finger and olenna killing joffrey via sansa and dontos + framing tyrion, littlefinger killing jon aryn via Lysa and framing the lannisters, tywin being the master mind of the red wedding making the realm believe the freys were just avenging Rob's lack of honor, etc.

 

I still can't figure out why Varys and Illyrio would want the targaryens all dead... But if they had them conspiring early on the show I think we are in for a surprise... as was the surprise of the murder of lysa's husband.. I never thought I would hear from that again and now three seasons later it comes back as a game changer. Littlefinger is a real player of the game now, he has been moving strings from season one, and it only makes sense that Varys has been moving these string but maybe not focusing in the Stark family but in the Targaryens. 

 

I believe everything Littlefinger did was for revenge from the starks (they took Cathelyn away) so maybe Varys and Illyrio have some grudge for the Targaryens, and have been working on their extintion since the Mad King Targaryen. 

Edited May 7, 2014 by Mr. Berns

[DemosthenesKey]

I think you're close with that spec, but with this addendum - everything he did, he did for his beloved Dead Cat. Who was a Tully, of course, and not a Stark. I imagine the only loyalty he feels towards the Starks (aka Sansa) is that she probably looks like Cat used to. 

 

In any event, I don't know if he ever loved Cat - the sense I got from him is more that he decided he'd have her, because that was the way things went in the stories, and it didn't work out like that. And he decided that he would MAKE things work out like that by any means necessary, because Littlefinger (in Littlefinger's mind) deserves everything he wants (Cat, the Vale, the Iron Throne...) by virtue of Being Littlefinger.

[Snowblack]

I don't entirely agree.  Yes, Little Finger wants Sansa and was obsessed with Catlyn.  And I think that plays a small part in his choices.  But I think it really goes back to "chaos is a ladder."  He is behind events that cause great turmoil in the realm, and he pre-positions himself to gain from that turmoil.  And he has reaped tremendous rewards. 

 

That being said, one thing the show seems to do often is take bad characters from villain to supervillain status before killing them.  They telegraph what's coming that way an awful lot of the time.  So these revelations may well signal the end for Lord Baelish.  I will miss him, slimy as he is.

[Mr. Berns]

I don't entirely agree.  Yes, Little Finger wants Sansa and was obsessed with Catlyn.  And I think that plays a small part in his choices.  But I think it really goes back to "chaos is a ladder."  He is behind events that cause great turmoil in the realm, and he pre-positions himself to gain from that turmoil.  And he has reaped tremendous rewards. 

 

But why does he want everything? why does he want so much power? every character has a motivation and a reason for that: 

 

Dany: wants to free slaves because she felt like one when she was sold to Drogo for an army

Cercei: hated Robert because she felt spurned in their wedding night, besides she resents her sex because she feels entitled to Casterly Rock or to the Throne but she will never have any of that. This is clear by how she reacts when Tyrion send Myrcella off to marry in Dorne to form an alliance and with her marriage to Loras. 

 

I think the show portrays very deep characters and Littlefinger doesn't just want power because... He wants it due to the fact that he was always told he was never good enough to marry Cat, this was his motivation for it. They gave her to another man. He always felt "little" and now wants everything, he started the war because of it. Otherwise he would have never involved the Starks, he could have just told Robert the truth about Cercei, and created chaos from that. 

[arry the orphan]

 

Maybe Varys and Illyrio were working together in insuring the extinction of the targaryen line....

But if they had them conspiring early on the show I think we are in for a surprise... as was the surprise of the murder of lysa's husband.. I never thought I would hear from that again and now three seasons later it comes back as a game changer. Littlefinger is a real player of the game now, he has been moving strings from season one, and it only makes sense that Varys has been moving these string but maybe not focusing in the Stark family but in the Targaryens.

 

I agree that we haven't seen the last of the Varys-Illyrio connection. Varys hates magic and wizards. The Targaryens have a magic connection to their dragons  and that could have been a good motive for him. Although I don't think that giving them powerful allies (Dothraki) in order to find a reason to kill them makes sense. I think that Varys is part of some conspiracy in the Eastern cities. We already know about at least one "conspiracy" like that. They are trying to convert the Seven Kingdoms to their religion of the Lord of Light. Thoros failed to convert Robert, but Melisandre succeeded with Stannis. Varys is anti-magic. He was mutilated in a ritual that sounded quite religious. So perhaps Varys is part of a conspiracy to counter that attempt to convert Westeros? That would explain, why he thinks he is serving the realm! And why he was so eager to help Tyrion to defeat Stannis. He realized that the realm is going to be taken over by the Eastern Religion. The Targaryens come from Old Valyria and Melisandre talked to Thoros in Valyrian as well. So there could be a Targaryen connection to the religion as well. The Dothraki were very anti-magic as well, based on how they treated the witch. So Varys and Illyrio could have thought that they were a good fit to counter the Red Religion.

 

And then there is still Pycelle. In S1 it looked like he is a player as well. He is just pretending to be an old and weak man. I'm wondering when we learn more about him.

Edited May 7, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Pallas]

My feeling about Littlefinger is that he represents a particular type of Broken Thing: the vengeful victim of bullies.  He is a grown, intelligent, patient, far-reaching version of the contemporary kids who shoot up their schools.  Or a despot who began his climb as an apparatchik, useful to all and valued by none, from beginnings with his face ground into the schoolyard.  

 

The closest he ever came to love, is what he felt toward those who wronged him.  He wanted to have them if he couldn't be them; to be them if he couldn't have them.  But he wasn't, and they wouldn't have him.  The closest he ever came to love is hating them. Every one of them: every lord, every lady.  And every other person the lords and ladies wronged, like him.  Their children, their pets, their whores, their servants, their soldiers, their slaves, their victims.  

 

He wants everything because he hates everyone. Because long ago, when he was trying to discover who he was, some other children let him know that he was nothing, that he was not what they were -- that he had no place among them.  He wore this mark like a hairshirt, and went to make his fortune.  As he climbed the ladder, by making himself despised and indispensable, he seemingly played into the hands of his colleagues, his enemies, by inventing for himself a family crest for a family with no other members -- and as his sigyl, a mockingbird.  

 

It took almost nothing on his part to take everything from them.  He barely had to stoop to pick up what they mislaid.  He saw how right they had always been: he was not like them.  Now they were too stupid even to see that.  The profligate King, the adulterous Queen, the bastard heirs, the disaffected brothers, the craven ministers, the palsied Hand.  All these brave highborn with their brains shrunk down to the size of the Targareyns' last dragons.  All ready, like them, for the sept.  

 

If they knew it was he who sealed the door behind them -- if they knew it was he who remembered all their names and then stole them from history, who made sure they would be forgotten -- that would not be everything, but that would be a start.  He was not like them.  They were the heroes.  He was what happened to heroes; he was how the story ended.  

[Mr. Berns]

I agree that we haven't seen the last of the Varys-Illyrio connection. Varys hates magic and wizards. The Targaryens have a magic connection to their dragons  and that could have been a good motive for him. Although I don't think that giving them powerful allies (Dothraki) in order to find a reason to kill them makes sense. I think that Varys is part of some conspiracy in the Eastern cities. 

 

I don't think Varys knew the hatching of dragons was even possible until dany came along.. Still he does hate magic, and as Targeryen used to be a family actively involved in magic in the past, maybe his grudge comes from the fact that Dany's ancestors did something to his ansestors. Game of Thrones is like a big history show based on even bigger "history" books, things that happened in the past come back bitting everyones butt. Oberyn and his sister's revenge is an example, up until season 4 I didn't even know the people from Dorne hated Robert or the Lannisters. The past is important, and we have had glimpses of Varys's past for a reason. 

 

But you make a good point, the eastern cities may be involved in some kind of conspiracy, I find no other reason of why a very rich man from the east such as Illyrio could actually care about the Iron Throne. And I still think a Dothraki army is NOT a good gift for Dany, he could've hired a sellsword company for them such as Stannis is doing. Illyrio is a man that just "gives away" three dragon eggs, he certainly has the money to help Dany and her brother with ships and an army, and I mean a true army fit to fight the west, where they use armour, and chainmail and big fortresses... no matter how many Dothraki attack the west they will never be able to conquer it just with their horses.. You might say they would have raided every village and gained enough gold for ships, but they are not sailors, they know nothing about marine strategy of even war strategy.. they just use strenght and raid small villages that have no way of defending themselves.. 

[Mr. Berns]

My feeling about Littlefinger is that he represents a particular type of Broken Thing: the vengeful victim of bullies.  He is a grown, intelligent, patient, far-reaching version of the contemporary kids who shoot up their schools.  Or a despot who began his climb as an apparatchik, useful to all and valued by none, from beginnings with his face ground into the schoolyard.  

 

The closest he ever came to love, is what he felt toward those who wronged him.  He wanted to have them if he couldn't be them; to be them if he couldn't have them.  But he wasn't, and they wouldn't have him.  The closest he ever came to love is hating them. Every one of them: every lord, every lady.  And every other person the lords and ladies wronged, like him.  Their children, their pets, their whores, their servants, their soldiers, their slaves, their victims.  

 

He wants everything because he hates everyone. Because long ago, when he was trying to discover who he was, some other children let him know that he was nothing, that he was not what they were -- that he had no place among them.  He wore this mark like a hairshirt, and went to make his fortune.  As he climbed the ladder, by making himself despised and indispensable, he seemingly played into the hands of his colleagues, his enemies, by inventing for himself a family crest for a family with no other members -- and as his sigyl, a mockingbird.  

 

Great analysis Pallas!! I think you have described Littlefinger's motivations perfectly.. the "bullies" where the starks and tullys and that is why he brought them down first...

 

Besides I had no idea about his sigil's history! I hope this season we get more backstory on Littlefinger, he is becoming much more relevant in the show... i think something big is coming to the Vale... Lysa is one of the last Tully's standing... maybe she's next :D 

 

Either way I just love how we keep getting more interesting villains each time.. Joffrey was great to hate, but characters such as Littlefinger and Varys are the most dangerous of all. 

Edited May 8, 2014 by Mr. Berns

[DirewolfPup]

TellSackett

Disturbing thought, but maybe Littlefinger is fantasizing about Sansa being his and Cat's daughter. Littlefinger is smart, but sometimes I'm not sure he's all there, what with his dramatic storybook like actions... Huh... maybe Littlefinger discovered he couldn't be that hero in the stories he used to love so decided to be the oily villain instead?

I'd like to say that at least Sansa is safe from Littlefinger's romantic attentions if he thinks of her as a daughter, but with the way incest occurs on this show that might be an additional attarction instead of a shield.

 

Okay. This freaked me out. I've always thought that Sansa was so incredibly different from all of her siblings in looks and demeanor. Cat could have had Robb while the war was still going on. Cat's honor would not allow her to have an affair (much less so with LF), but rape is a possibility. Maybe LF is Sansa's father.... oh good lord... I'm going to be sick...

 

Stillshimpy (from the episode thread)

I'm firmly of the opinion that [Dany] will never be fully dissuaded from trying to take the Iron Throne, too much of her identity is wrapped up in who her family was.  Also, I sort of want her to face off with Jamie Lannister and perhaps for Dany to understand why killing her father was necessary.

 

What about Dany and Jamie as a couple? Random, right?

Edited May 9, 2014 by DirewolfPup

[stillshimpy]

TellSacket: I'd like to say that at least Sansa is safe from Littlefinger's romantic attentions

 

See, I think that Sansa might be safe from Littlefinger's sexual attentions because he has an actual romantic interest in her.   Sansa is not an escapee from any Great Brain Trust (although in fairness, she's little better than a kid within the story), but I think Littlefinger actually did want Cat as a wife when they were younger.  Both to prove something to the world they lived in and because he genuinely believed himself to be in love with her.  

 

He apparently challenged Brandon Stark to an actual duel for Catelyn's affection and hand.  He lost in what sounds like a crushing humiliation, made worse by Cat begging the square-jawed-manly Brandon for Littlefinger's life.  Likely complete with whatever mortifying-to-Petyr's-pride declarations that must have accompanied it, to make it a persuasive plea.  "He's just a boy, I could never love him. He's just playing at being a knight.  He's like a brother to me."   (or whatever, it's not hard to imagine)

 

Whatever Catelyn said, I'm sure Petyr remembered every damned word of it forever.  At that point, I think he hooked up with Lyssa and began his long climb up "the laddah" of chaos because when he played by the rules of that world, it ended with him humiliated, sliced from zither to zatch (paraphrasing Thurber) .  So there's Lyssa, another reject from the world for being too plain, too crazy, too jealous, too far down in the birth order.  

 

But she sees him as a fellow misfit, someone wronged by that world also.  She loves him in part because he is also the one seen as inferior or damaged goods.  She thinks they are kindred spirits.  

 

I'm not going to be surprised if poor Brandon Stark ended up extra-crispy because Littlefinger was whispering in a mad man's ear, by the way, or if Lyssa helped with that.  Or if Littlefinger threw Lyanna Stark in an increasingly unstable Rhaegar's path.  All week long I've been making peace with Littlefinger: Puppet Master of the Seven Kingdoms.  It's a tad absurd, but then so is a lot of this stuff, so I can roll with it.  

 

But with Sansa Littlefinger has the chance to be the actual dashing hero in Sansa's eyes.  To be what Brandon Stark was to Catelyn Tully all those years ago.  Whatever else Sansa is, she's also really a very beautiful young woman.  She is at least sweet and decent, even if she's not in the least cunning and Petyr has a chance to actually win the freaking Lady this time.  

 

So I doubt he wants to touch her, but I do wonder if he hasn't set himself up to be the romantic figure in her eyes, that he could never achieve in Cat's, the country's or even Lyssa "I love you because we have both been hurt by our rejections in this terrible world" eyes.  

 

Basically, he's got a chance at a do-over.  Plus, perhaps without realizing it, Lyssa just added to how Sansa might come to view Littlefinger as being the dashing hero:  She let Sansa know, just as Shae had, that Littlefinger would likely put forcible moves on her.  So now Sansa knows both via Shae and Lyssa that it's practically just an expectation in that world....and she could potentially view Littlefinger with an eye towards how he seemingly has some pure interest in her.  Littlefinger stands a much better chance of getting what he actually might want from Sansa, by not actually touching her.  

 

 

 

Direwolfpup - What about Dany and Jamie as a couple? Random, right?

 

Oh my god, random and entirely twisted, right? That would be sort of awesome, but I don't think it could happen.  He's "The Kingslayer" , Dany's going to know what that means.  

Edited May 9, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Beautiful depiction of Littlefinger's yens and yearnings about Sansa, shimpy.  I love the idea that she appeals to the lost romantic in him, that she appeals to his deformed but strong heart, which may drive him far more than his sexuality. And your idea that he sees in Sansa a twin to his own story-addled idealist.  That maybe, he even does love her a little for that.  And your point that Sansa may come to view Littelfinger more favorably -- just as it seems she did Tyrion -- as she understands that he chose not to force himself upon her, when he had ample chance.  

 

It's a truism of recovery therapy that the addict became frozen at the stage of development reached when the addiction took hold: when the addict, traumatized, sought to kill the pain, rather than confront and overcome it.  Littlefinger may be frozen at the stage that followed the moment where he, emboldened by the stories, dared love the dashing daughter of Hoster Tully.  To whom he was the lowborn playmate Micah (or companion Gendry) to her Arya.  But a Micah or Gendry with dreams.  The stage at which Brandon Stark did a Joffrey/Hound on him,  and Catelyn revealed that she didn't want Littlefinger to free her for himself: she chose Brandon; she loved him, not Petyr.  That was the ego-blow that arrested him in his tracks.  From then on, he despised the boy he'd been as much as he loathed the Tullys and Starks who'd killed him.  Yet the boy was only gutted, not killed outright. That boy stared through Littlefinger's eyes when he first spied Sansa Stark. 

[abelard]

Great readings of LF's character and motivations, shimpy and pallas.  On the role that Sansa plays in LF's life, I would just like to add that I think Sansa does not "remind" LF of Cat, but that Sansa represents Cat to LF, and that the conquest (ewww) or co-optation or incorporation of Sansa into The LF Project will somehow redeem or make right the story that went wonky when LF lost the duel to Brandon Stark.  But Sansa herself doesn't resemble her mother physically - this is not just my subjective opinion but the opinions of characters on the show - Tyrion has called Sansa "beautiful" several times and so Sansa is supposed to be very lovely, LF said that Cat was "not really "very beautiful and so we are supposed to perceive Cat as a handsome woman, an refined and noble woman, but not as heartstoppingly gorgeous.  I actually think Cat's lack of astounding beauty really says something about LF - something about how Young LF was not about surface beauty, but seeing beneath the surface - but what he saw in Cat was probably not her honor and decency, but her being the eldest daughter of Hoster Tully, her being the daughter of a noble house with an Old Name.  Iow, he saw the power that Cat represented, and that's what he loved her for (not her beauty).  

 

(Btw I am guessing that Sansa's beauty gives an impression of what Lyanna Stark must have looked like - a face that launched two generations of warfare across Seven Kingdoms and beyond.)

 

Lyssa also represents a great deal of power (that she does not care to use, or does not know how to use) but her crazy is probably too intense for LF to have fancied that he "loved" her.  Anyway LF's capacity to love probably died in that duel with Brandon Stark - unless shimpy is right that Sansa is waking some actual, real feeling within him.  Frankly I think he was always a Smerdyakov (from Brothers Karamazov), seemingly worthy of pity but really just twisted and evil inside, and ready to take it out on the world.

 

Just quickly on Varys, I have said it before but I'll say it again: I think Varys was playing Illyrio.  Illyrio only thought/thinks Varys wants a Targ invasion of the 7K.  Varys wants no such thing.  He conspired with Illyrio to get info from him, to get intelligence.  Varys is double-agenting Illyrio - what Varys wants is to know where the hell Danerys is so that he can try to stop her.  At least now Tywin also understands the threat in the East, so Varys is not alone in thinking there is a major problem there (even Robert recognized this threat).  But I guess neither Tywin nor Varys sees the point of opening up yet another front of war, and anyway the Lannisters cannot fund that.  And now it's harder for Varys to try to poison Dany or otherwise have her assassinated, she seems too well-guarded for that.  

[stillshimpy]

Anyway LF's capacity to love probably died in that duel with Brandon Stark - unless shimpy is right that Sansa is waking some actual, real feeling within him.  Frankly I think he was always a Smerdyakov (from Brothers Karamazov), seemingly worthy of pity but really just twisted and evil inside, and ready to take it out on the world.

 

To be clear, what passes for "real feelings" in Littlefinger, would be the diseased, stunted, warped version in any other human being.  I think he's capable of love, it's just not love in the way anyone would be wished to be loved.  I think his feelings for Cat were genuine, but grotesque.   I don't know that he has real feelings for Sansa or not, but in her I think he might see a chance at a dramatic reenactment of sorts.  

 

First saving her from her husband, a son of the family who slaughtered her own family, and from Joffrey.  Now she's in a mad woman's keep and a woman prone to positively deranged jealousy as it is anyway.  So maybe he'll somehow get to "save" Sansa from Lyssa now.  

 

I just don't think Lyssa's going to live all that long and it's partially that I can't see Littlefinger remaining married to her one second after she becomes any sort of problem for him.  That second has already passed, just by virtue of being Lyssa. 

Edited May 9, 2014 by stillshimpy

[DemosthenesKey]

You could practically see him thinking to himself as she clutched at him, "Come on, 'Finger, just hold on a bit longer... Maybe lie back and think of the Riverlands? No, no, bad memories. Okay, lie back and think of Cat? Maybe if it was dark?"

*glances at Lysa*

"... Reeeeeeeeally dark? And then we kill her, because I'm Littlefinger and this is making even ME go 'EW'."

[abelard]

Yeah, shimpy, I definitely agree with this:

 

I think he's capable of love, it's just not love in the way anyone would be wished to be loved.  I think his feelings for Cat were genuine, but grotesque.   I don't know that he has real feelings for Sansa or not, but in her I think he might see a chance at a dramatic reenactment of sorts.

 

 

 

If Sansa ended up being married to LF for 10 years, 20 years (shudder + I really do not think this is what will really happen, and I could not stand it if it did, but if it happened), this is what she would see: that maybe LF loves her, but it is so extremely far from what love is to others, that it is love you never want to be on the receiving end of.  

 

I'll never forget or forgive how LF's "love" for Cat got Ned killed, and then LF went to Cat with Ned's bones and wheedled and lied like he was the innocent.  UGH.

[Pallas]

I think he's capable of love, it's just not love in the way anyone would be wished to be loved.  I think his feelings for Cat were genuine, but grotesque.

 

Perfectly put.  I really do see Littlefinger as the sort of intelligent, sensitive, outlier boy who was rejected by his peers among the lowborn long before the fatal thrashing by Brandon Stark.  And by "sensitive" I mean acutely aware of his own pain, his own ambitions, and from his outsider's vantage point, sharply observant of the failings and weaknesses of others. But lacking all perspective, all grasp of ambiguity. And altogether without empathy.  A boy bullied, considered to be of no account, who patiently nursed his grudge like Dany nursed her dragons.  I think several among of the Third Reich hierarchy met that description, including the Fuehrer himself.  

 

His "love" for Cat or Sansa or anyone else would depend on his identifying with them, on his being able to distort them into the role he crafted for them in his fantasy.  They'd be sunk the first time they did anything that departed from his script. 

[abelard]

I think several among of the Third Reich hierarchy met that description, including the Fuehrer himself.

 

I also have been thinking about a comparison to Hitler since we found out the LF has been the instigator of this latest series of wars in the 7K, but Hitler was more of a "front man" than LF is.  LF is a Grey Eminence, a power-behind-the-throne, and he is (I think) incapable of inspiring mass excitement/hysteria in the same way.  But as for your pointing to the shared motivations - the bullied outcast who is smarter and more ambitious than the rest, and who later becomes bent on making the bullies "pay"- yes I think you're right.  Tywin Lannister for instance does not see LF coming for him, not from miles and miles away.  To LF's targets, LF is not even a mild blip on the radar.  Only Varys (and Olenna Tyrell) suspect what LF is brewing or is capable of.

[90PercentGravity]

So, Littlefinger is a wound collector?

[Pallas]

Wow -- "wound collector."  A very useful concept, 90%; thank you!  I'd say it fits Littlefinger to his little finger.

 

I was just re-watching a few eps of Season 1 last night, beginning with Ned's arrival in King's Landing.  Littlefinger meets Ned for the first time in the first Small Council meeting and states (paraphrasing), "I'm sure you have heard many tales of me."  My read on that bold statement is that Baelish was actually hoping Ned would demur, forcing Baelish to humble himself before Ned and all, explaining...which would publicly further his persona of being of little account, and, privately, give Baelish another grievance against the Starks, to stoke his fire.  Later on Cat arrives and Baelish sends an armed guard to escort her to his cathouse.  When Cat confronts him she hurls his message at him and calls him a worm.  Littlefinger is all conciliatory smiles.  Finally, of course, Ned nearly throttles him when Baelish reveals he has secreted Cat in his whorehouse; as Ned strides inside without a word, Baelish adjusts his clothes and steadies himself by murmuring aloud, "The Starks...Quick hands, slow minds."  He then follows Ned inside and plays the perfect host, adding his clever bit about "my knife -- that is, Tyrion's."  Chilling.  

 

His first meeting with Sansa is at the Hand's Tournament, where the girls are escorted only by their Septa.  (Ned is babysitting Knifey.) Baelish catches Sansa's disappointment at Joffrey's ignoring her, crouches beside her and murmurs, "Lovers' quarrel?"   After deftly forgiving Arya her impertinent question about his nickname, and giving what seems a G-rated explanation, he turns his attentions back to Sansa.  To her he whispers the story of the Mountain and the Hound, finishing by telling Sansa that "Very few know this tale," and that she is not to repeat it.  So from the jump, as we all noted at the time, he sought to initiate Sansa into the world of secrecy, into the dark truths behind the myths of chivalry.     

 

And how clever of him to assign Knifey to Tyrion, of the four Lannisters who had been at Winterfell.  Only Tyrion had not returned to King's Landing, where he could have been questioned on the spot by the new Hand, with what Littlefinger might have assumed was the full support of the King.  Plus, Tyrion was Tyrion: the Littlefinger of the Lannisters.  How far would they go to defend this one of their own -- yet, how far might they still carry the grudge against the Starks, if Tyrion were to be convicted?  

 

And meanwhile Cat leaves: not having seen the girls at all, after she and Ned have their poignant last words.  He warns her against her temper, and they laugh.  He says, meaning Littlefinger, "He loves you still."  She says, smiling at him, "Does he?"  And Ned gets it! He gets the play on words and meaning!  He answers her wordlessly, and then says, "Off with you."

 

Cat leaves, and encounters Tyrion on the road, in the inn.  Littlefinger's run of extraordinary luck, begun when Bran happened upon Jaime and Cersei, doubles down.

[AlphaLine]

Updating my thoughts on that Jojen kid..

 

I still don't trust him. In many ways he's still mysterious and too manipulative.

Let's get to the visions. Now with visions/prophecies/future predictions there are two ways to go, determinism vs free will. With determinism, it means that whatever you see in a vision, doesn't matter, it will still come true no matter what you do. Whereas with free will, you can change the course of history such that the event does not come to pass. I'm not sure what they are going for here, because this is the first time Jojen is seeing a vision of the future. Not that of the present ( like the Jon Snow one ), because he has seen his own death where his hand gets set on fire. I don't know how this makes him 100% confident that Gin-Alley Karl would not just run a sword through him, and then set him on fire later.

 

And that's my problem with the visions. They are of zero practical value. Why doesn't he have a vision 'I saw some bad guys.. at Craster's keep.. lets stay away from there'. No, of course not. Let's not kid ourselves, Jojen is 100% useless. Atleast his sister knows how to use weapons. Oh .. he's supposed to be a mentor for Bran. And that brings us to our next problem.. Why, exactly? In a previous episode, Jojen tells Bran he can't survive on the food that his wolf eats. So who died and made him an expert in this area all of a sudden. He can't even worg to begin with. And in this epsiode, he 'convinces' Bran not to call out to Jon and instead go away. This is.. problematic. It is not Bran's 'decision' ( he was calling out 'Jon!' just two seconds back ). And he should be knowing his brother well enough that he would leave them to go wherever, rather than taking them to Castle Black. ( how does that even work, does he drag them back in chains or something? )

 

See, Bran always, always follows exactly what Jojen says. The 'Jojen logic' goes something like this- We can't go to Castle Black because Jon isn't there and is surrounded by 'enemies'. Now Jon is there but we can't contact him because he would drag us back to Castle black. Yeah.. 'Jojen logic' is self defeating and contradictory. Why doesn't he say out loud that his mission is to get Bran to the Tree in which the 3 eyed raven lives. That was their mission all along and obviously so.. they are agents of the raven and we don't really know even what they are - I've speculated that they are 'children of the forest'. ( Does anyone still believe their nonsensical cover story - being Stark Bannermen, really? ) This isn't a mentor/pupil relationship, or a hero/sidekick. It's more like master/slave relationship and disturbingly similar to Melisandre/Stannis. We know Melisandre uses sex and black magic to manipulate Stannis, and Jojen is doing the same , though his magical powers aren't well defined but he clearly has some.

 

Apart from that I have severe logistical problems with this scene. Their gear would still be back at Craster's. The wheelbarrow, food , dragonglass daggers, bedroll, everything. At the end of the episode they just leave. You're telling me they plan to travel several hundred miles through a snowy wasteland with no gear. As someone who has done some trekking and snow climbing, what they are doing is simply insane. The last time the show made a logistics blunder of such a colossal magnitude was last season, where Davos rushed out Gendry to the boat, gave him the shortest crash course in the history of swimming ( don't fall out ), babbled some nonsense about a star and let him loose with no supplies and no idea how to row.

 

I'm assuming the Night's watch and women went through the whole of Craster's keep to get out all the food and other supplies before burning it down ( Any other way doesn't make logistics sense to me, burning down your refuge is bad enough but without any gear? No, just no ). Jon would have found the wheelbarrow, dragonglass daggers and a cleverer man would have put things together and asked the Craster women 'Hey did you see a crippled kid with a giant' and so on. But then like all Starks Jon isn't very bright. So I guess that works.

[Snowblack]

AlphaLine, I don't like the Jojen kid either, but I don't ascribe any sinister motives to him.  I think he's just a sickly kid with visions, and he trusts in them far more than perhaps he should.  I don't know whether he's also a warg.  He seems to know an awful lot about warging if he isn't one.  His sister has spent her life protecting him.  They strike me as naive northern kids, just like the Stark kids.  They don't have a clue about the real world, and they're off on this half-baked mission based on a bunch of visions and overly idealistic thinking.  I wouldn't be surprised if none of the current group except Bran made it to the tree.  I imagine they'll find others to assist them on their journey (Benjen, please!!!). I'm sure there's something to the visions.  I don't know we should assume that the visions are leading Bran to something benevoltent.  It may be something that refuses to take sides in a war between an ancient evil and mankind.  It may also be something that directly or indirectly gives Bran the knowledge that man needs to defeat the White Walkers or put them back into dormancy or whatever.  I have to confess that at this point, I'm still not very engaged in Bran's storyline.  But it may become quite interesting at some point.

[Snowblack]

Abelard responded to Pallas in the Stark thread:

 

I really love this spec.  The Maesters are clearly keepers of the secrets of medicine -- of poisons and cures (and autopsies, and illegal experiments) -- and maybe of book learning in general (thinking here of Maester Aemon's vast library)?  But Maester Luwin also seemed to serve as Winterfell's steward in many ways, the person who knows the inventory, who manages the house staff, who keeps the books, who decides what visitors see the Lord when - kind of a Major Domo type, too.  Kind of like Alfred from Batman, if Alfred were also a medical doctor.  I'd love to know a bit more about the Maesters b/c they have their own order - and in that way, they seem more like monks, like Jesuit or Benedictine priests, than anyone - and their own rituals (with the keys and lock, etc.), like they're a whole House of their own.

 

Maester Luwin also said something to Bran in S1 about how he could have done a course (?) in magic, but didn't b/c nobody did anymore, right?  So the Maesters used to know magic and it was a part of their curriculum?  Interesting.

 

I think Maesters were around before the Targs and the 7 Gods came.  I think they realized that survival meant conversion.  But perhaps individual Maesters cleave more to the religion they were brought up in.  Luwin maybe grew up in the North (though did he sound like that?  was that his accent?) and so maybe opted to die under the weirwood.  OR, the weirwood was the most holy place in Winterfell, that was why he chose it (there is no Sept in Winterfell). 

 

Ooooh, the poison thing reminded me of Oberyn.  I think Oberyn was sent off to Measter school (or whatever you want to call it).  So I get the impression that younger sons are sent to the wall or to become Maesters, just as younger sons in medieval times were sent to monsteries to become priests.  They live a life where they are unlikely to bear children or become a threat to their older brothers' claim to their family title.  I wonder if there is a direct equivalent to monasteries.  A sept school, or something like that.  Could that be where Septas come from?  Younger daughters who cannot be married off?

 

And I wonder why Oberyn is back with his family instead of serving as a Maester somewhere.  Could it be that, unlike Maester Aemon, he returned to his family when his sister was killed?  Or perhaps his older brother has no heirs, and his failing health has necessitated Oberyn's return to the family.  Maybe he disgraced himself and was expelled.  The back story on this guy, warrior, scholar and lover that he is, must be really interesting.

[Pallas]

So I get the impression that younger sons are sent to the wall or to become Maesters, just as younger sons in medieval times were sent to monasteries to become priests.

 

Tywin said Oberyn had studied poisons at the Conservatory or the Institute (one or the other).  I didn't get the impression this was necessarily a religious institution, or even one affiliated with the Maesters.  Royal families tend to be a different kettle of fish from the rest of the nobility, spare royals would often serve in the military but not religious orders.  And Dorne seems to have maintained its status as a principality, at least, if not perhaps a kingdom.  

 

As abelard pointed out, Luwin did mention the magic course (formerly?) available for study by Maesters.  I got the impression it was still an elective within the course of study, but one that Luwin frowned upon as being both faintly heretical and also, obsolete.  The Bolton ex-Maester, Cersei's favorite, lost his Key for practicing what was considered bad medicine or black arts: at any rate, "experiments."