Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[RadiantAerynSun]

Okay something has been bugging me.

 

WHAT WAS CERSEI UP TO WITH QYBURN????????????????

 

We were twice shown that she was favoring Qyburn suddenly isntead of Pycelle. I can't help but think this was hinting at "something" (also, symptoms? Of what?) But we haven't heard a thing about it lately. Which makes me even more sure itw as important...

[WhiteStumbler]

Snowblack: I so wanted Jaime to call Tywin's bluff and stand as Tyrion's champion! WTF would Tywin (thru Cersei) have done? If Jaime would loose, Tywin would loose both his sons at a stroke. That was the Tywin-esque move, but Jaime didn't see it, or didn't have the courage to take that position.

Tyrion on the run will be tough. Lots of bearded dudes with swords on this show. The only other dwarves... Hey maybe the troupe from Joffrey's wedding performance help Tyrion escape KL?

[MrMicrophone]

Demos,

Yup. Tvtropes has Stannis as The Determinator.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Determinator

(note: ref provided for trope, not stannis. stannis entry probably contains spoilers

(I just searched for the term, which seemed safe enough))

[RadiantAerynSun]

Yeah here I was sure Jaime was going to have to fight for one side or the other and could possibly die... got all worked up about htat possibility, and then in this ep he's just like "yeah, nope, sorry bro, I clearly can't do that" Cuz of course a one handed man isn't going to win that fight! Ditto for our specs that Bronn would fight for him - Cersei bought him off too, and while for a moment I hated Bronn... dammit, he is right, when has Tyrion risked his neck for Bronn? Why should he go on a suicide mission just for his friend who keeps getting into scrapes? So yeah I CHEERED when Oberyn volunteered, because of course, it's so poetic. Although, this show being this show I'm not entirely sure if Oberyn will win... but I like to think so. I am going to guess, poisoned blade, since we have been told he is an expert with poisons.

[DemosthenesKey]

MrMicrophone, mwahaha! >:D I am vindicated! Although I fear to click that link, so I'll just be content with my post here on the Wall, clapping gaily at References I Get.

On a more speculative note: I wasn't all that surprised by Bronn, and actually found myself kind of touched at his scene. What Tyrion said about him being friends with him BECAUSE Bronn was a heartless dick (note: may not be the actual Show's dialogue) just rung true, and to me at least it was still clear that Bronn genuinely likes Tyrion. Just... not enough to die for him.

[90PercentGravity]

If Oberyn wins, I'll be a bit disappointed that neither Arya nor The Hound got to take out The Mountain.

[DirewolfPup]

If Oberyn wins, I'll be a bit disappointed that neither Arya nor The Hound got to take out The Mountain.

 

Eh. I won't be THAT upset ;)

[Pallas]

I guess Jaime doesn't have to uphold his promise if Tyrion doesn't need to be spared.  So Tyrion really does screw Tywin if Oberyn wins.

 

I think Tyrion already screwed Tywin on the deal about Jaime, as he acknowledged.  "It was almost worth it, just to see the look..."  The deal is dead, as Jaime conceded back to him.  The deal was contingent on Tyrion's pleading for mercy after a guilty verdict rendered by jury.  Win or lose, he's doing no pleading.  And rather poignantly, he has given Jaime back his freedom.

 

I so wanted Jaime to call Tywin's bluff and stand as Tyrion's champion! WTF would Tywin (thru Cersei) have done? If Jaime would loose, Tywin would loose both his sons at a stroke. That was the Tywin-esque move, but Jaime didn't see it, or didn't have the courage to take that position. -- WhiteStumbler

 

You're right, that would have been great to see.  Even if Tywin then immediately came up with a ruling that disqualified Jaime as Tyrion's champion.  And that's when Oberyn makes his move...

 

But then again, we wouldn't have had the scene between Tyrion and Oberyn in the cell. That was worth a lot.   

 

Tyrion on the run will be tough.

 

I think I see what you mean.  If Oberyn wins and the procedure is the same as the trial-by-combat in the Vale, Tyrion will be freed. But, freed in the city where his father holds the power and his sister has her minions.  Perhaps Oberyn takes Tyrion with him back to Dorne?  

 

Thinking about the poisoned blade: Tywin knows that Oberyn is a master of poison.  Won't he insist on providing the blades?   Unless...oh! What if the plan is for Tyrion to name Jaime as his champion -- expecting Tywin to object -- and then for Oberyn to step forward?  Tywin might be distracted enough by his maneuvers to spare Jaime, that he overlooks the possibility of poison?  

 

But I guess that I think Oberyn is more likely to do something water-dancery -- "rope-a-dope"-esque -- to counter-act the Mountain's mass. 

Edited May 19, 2014 by Pallas

[90PercentGravity]

From the episode thread:

 

I can picture that quite well, yes... Littlefinger on one side, moving an unsuspecting rook forward to be sacrificed in a rook's straightforward line - a sacrifice that opens up all his other pieces to move. A pure bishop of the North here, a knight with a robin's head beside it there... If he has a Queen, there's no sign of it yet - though Varys doesn't exactly have a strong power piece either. That's not how they play. Varys sacrifices a red-headed knight to Littlefinger, then loses his smartest piece (Tyrion), and watches mute while Littlefinger jostles the board so his pieces have better positions... Although depending on how you interpret things, Varys DOES actually have a Queen with silver hair in reserve. I rather suspect the metaphor fell apart on me there, but regardless I agree. Littlefinger and Varys are playing against each other

So, this got me thinking about which chess piece each character would be. I'm think

 

Rook for Tyrion, since he only seems able to move forward and back (not even really side to side).

Knight for Jaime, since he jumps all over the place.

King for Cersai, because even though she can move in any direction, she is rarely moves more than one step at a time.

 

Pretty much all the Starks are pawns, since they only move in one direction ever.

Edited May 19, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[stillshimpy]

So, Tyrion even said that Tywin knows he did not do this. 

 

Why isn't Tywin interested in finding who killed Joffrey then?  Does he think that he can have justice visited upon whoever killed Joffrey, but in a less public setting?  

Edited May 20, 2014 by stillshimpy

[AlphaLine]

So what's happening again on Team Dragonstone? Did they say they are going somewhere and want to bring Shireen with them? I couldn't concentrate very well, because well, Melisandre is naked again.

 

So, where are they going off to now and why do they need Shireen? Possible King's blood sacrifice? By the way, they never explained what Gendry's sacrifice was supposed to accomplish. I'm thinking smoke monster, only a lot bigger.

 

Are they going to Bravos? Did Stannis hire the Golden Company ( which was name dropped again - Jorah served in it ). I don't know why they split up the men-folks going to Bravos, and now we see what the ladies of Dragonstone get up to in the meanwhile. It introduced some interesting dynamics for sure, rather than the usual angels & devils theme ( Mel = evil, Davos = good and Stannis always chooses evil ).

[Pallas]

Why isn't Tywin interested in finding who killed Joffrey then?  Does he think that he can have justice visited upon whoever killed Joffrey, but in a less public setting?

 

I wonder if Tywin gives a damn.  He may simply write off Joffrey's death as the cost of doing business, with a very profitable outcome.  This time -- as opposed to Tyrion's arrest by the Starks -- Tywin had the opportunity to choose and name the culprit, preserve appearances and maintain order in the realm.  He may deliberately be seeking to avoid any conflict with another House, any dispute that would require him to make moves to save face.  He may feel he doesn't have the time, the manpower or the money.  Pinning the blame on Tyrion allows him to get on with the business of being boss.  

 

I'm beginning to wonder if Tywin might be just a little full of shit.  First Tyrion and then Jaime have pointed out that for all Tywin's declarations about the family and its legacy, he seems never to taken any action or pursued any result that did not benefit him, personally.  He comes across as profoundly serious and credible in his every pronouncement, but he may be blessed with the power of making his self-interest appear more elevated than it is.  He may be the king of rationalization. 

[WhiteStumbler]

Why isn't Tywin interested in finding who killed Joffrey then? Does he think that he can have justice visited upon whoever killed Joffrey, but in a less public setting?

Yes, my take is that the public spectacle of a show trial is useful for maneuvering Jaime (and others?) into the positions he wants them in while getting rid of Tyrion (either at the Wall or dead), while in private he will settle scores with who he perceives as the actual killer(s).

Maybe a brute force of nature like The Mountain is less useful to Tywin now that he perceives the Lannister hold on the Iron Throne is strong? Seems to me that having a Mountain (or The Hound or Bronn) on your side is always useful. I don't know what Tywin is playing at.

[abelard]

I wonder if Tywin isn't seriously pursuing the real killer b/c he knows, or strongly suspects, that it is Olenna Tyrell.  Tywin cannot afford to alienate that family.  He has shown many times that he needs their money and their army, quite desperately.  Without that alliance, the Lannisters' reign is a failure.  Tywin is a smart man and he can see what Olenna saw: that Joffrey would have made the worst of all husbands, and this is in a land with some very bad husbands.  Tywin cannot even begin to voice suspicion of Olenna.  He was hoping to end the question and "mystery" of the murder by having a showy public trial that ended in Tywin's perfect win: Jaime at Casterly Rock and Tyrion at the Wall.  What's funny is not only that this trial will not end at all the way Tywin wanted, but also Tywin does not even begin to suspect the real (other) killer: LF.

 

Now that Tyrion has demanded trial-by-combat, will Jaime still go to the Rock?  Is that part of the deal still on if the other part of the deal (Tyrion's life spared via the mercy/Wall ruling) is not fulfilled?

[Pallas]

Spitball alert.  I was thinking about where A Show may be going with its newly introduced theme around mercy (in the Dany story), in contrast to cruelty and revenge, with the very dark family stories highlighted in "Mockingbird": Lannister, Clegane, Tully, Baratheon. Where I saw gleams of charity or forgiveness, it was between characters in quasi-familial relationships: Dany and Jorah,  Tyrion and Bronn,  Hot Pie and Arya (in absentia),  the Hound and Arya.  

 

To Dany, Jorah made the point that in war, no one side holds a monopoly on virtue or evil.  To Arya, the Hound made the point that he now has a bounty on his head thanks to his taking on the Lannister guardsmen in pursuit of her revenge.  He also pointed out that he is alone in the world in a way that she is not, and never was.  

 

Last year I said that Arya is being given an education in the workings of men's hearts, through her tutelage by a succession of fighting men: Syrio, Tywin, Jaqen, the Hound.  I think Arya may release the Hound from his place on her list, help him escape to Bravos, and give him her coin and watchwords from Jaqen, to help make his way there. 

[stillshimpy]

I have to say, I really enjoy the actor playing Daario now a lot more than the original Velveeta Log that they cast.  It just seems more credible that Dany would be into him, whereas the other guy was so unctuous, it just made Dany seem as if she had terrible taste in men.  I was particularly glad about the casting change when New!Daario bumped into Old!Jorah after the younger set had clearly gotten it on.   

 

Points to the actor who plays Jorah, he managed to look distressed and slightly pained, but he also didn't then take it out on Daario, which I genuinely appreciated.  Not that I think Daario is such a tender flower that he'd be unable to handle some animosity or jealousy from Jorah, but I just thought it spoke well of Jorah that he got -- seemingly straight away -- that it wasn't that Daario beat him in some kind of competition, but rather that Dany just doesn't view Jorah romantically or sexually.  I also thought it spoke well of Dany that she sort of let Jorah know with the "No, tell him you changed my mind".  It was just a nice nod to his role as her adviser.  

 

Yeah, Pallas, I've noticed the 'aw, the softer side of the Seven Kingdoms' vibe of late, but I also recall that the last time that happened was with Robb, Talisa and Catelyn talking about how she grew to love Ned, so I'm assuming that there's going to be some bloody, bloody death to pay for this sweetness.  

 

 

 

I wonder if Tywin gives a damn.  He may simply write off Joffrey's death as the cost of doing business, with a very profitable outcome.

 

Only if he knows who did it, I would assume, because there's a difference between "well of course someone killed Joffrey, because ...Joffrey, the answer is in the question..." and "someone feels free to kill Lannisters as revenge" and for Tywin not to give a damn, I think he would need to know it is the former vs. the latter.  

 

ETA:  Again, this is the family that went to war and dragged the Kingdom with them, over the Lannister they all clearly despise (except for Jaime), so I don't think that there is anyway in the actual world that Tywin views Joffrey's death as just the cost of doing business, unless he knows damned well who did it, was either involved, or tacitly approves because Tommen is just a better bet. 

 

Again, they set the damned Riverlands afire and burned children alive to get Tyrion back.  Appearances are everything to the Lannisters.  Now it could be that Tywin feels the he gets everything he wants out of Joffrey being dead.  He can participate in the obvious framing of Tyrion.  He clearly hoped to get Jaime back as an heir to Casterly Rock.  He gets a much easier to manage and market King out of the deal.  

 

But all that really only works if Tywin isn't outraged that someone fucking dare kill a Lannister (regardless of the last name Baratheon, he knows that's a Lannister King and that most people know it too).  

Edited May 20, 2014 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

Maybe not "cost of doing business" so much as never failing to take advantage of a crisis? Would Tywin have preferred the way things played out? No, but Tywin was salvaging the situation. He thought he could get a nice pliable boy king and his heir back in Casterly Rock for the cost of one monster and people whispering about the Kingslayer Brothers. Done, until he twisted the knife a little too far and Tyrion reset the game.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Last year I said that Arya is being given an education in the workings of men's hearts, through her tutelage by a succession of fighting men: Syrio, Tywin, Jaqen, the Hound.  I think Arya may release the Hound from his place on her list, help him escape to Bravos, and give him her coin and watchwords from Jaqen, to help make his way there.

 

Oh Gosh. What if the Hound goes to Braavos and becomes a Faceless Man?? That would just be too perfect, since he obviously could use a new face. OMG I love it.

[WhiteStumbler]

RadiantAerynSun: But if they change the actor, I am not in favor of any Hound Into Faceless Man scenario. The Hound has become one of my favorite characters this season, and a good part of that is because of the work the actor has been putting in. Being paired with Arya seems to help a lot, now that I think of it. Every character who has spent time with Arya has risen higher in my estimation: Syrio, Yoren, Gendry, Tywin, and now The Hound.

 

Maybe if being a Faceless Man is like a costume he can slip in and out of? That would also make it possible that ORIG!Jaqen could come back and reprise the role.

[DirewolfPup]

Whitestumbler, I agreed whole-heartedly except for Gendry. Sure I want the young chap to be okay, but I don't really like the actor or most of the scenes he's in (except for his first scene in Season 3 where he picks on Arya for not naming Tywin, Joffrey, etc for the 3 names)

[WhiteStumbler]

I started to warm to Gendry when he was with Arya, so I put him in that list. The thing that really made me like him was his interaction with Onion Knight in the dungeons of Dragonstone. He is physically strong, friendly, skilled, and polite. So most likely dead in the morning.

 

I hope they show him alive this season, even if it is a few quick cuts of him still in his little boat, wild-eyed and rowing madly to get the Seven Hells away from Melisandre and Uncle Stan. *cue yakety sax*

[Pallas]

Again, this is the family that went to war and dragged the Kingdom with them, over the Lannister they all clearly despise (except for Jaime), so I don't think that there is anyway in the actual world that Tywin views Joffrey's death as just the cost of doing business, unless he knows damned well who did it, was either involved, or tacitly approves because Tommen is just a better bet.

Again, they set the damned Riverlands afire and burned children alive to get Tyrion back.  Appearances are everything to the Lannisters.

 

I went back to review the course of events and guess what I discovered.  Guess what Robert says to Ned, after Ned has fought Jaime, been injured, and woken up to find himself drafted back as Hand again.  At the end of the scene, Robert says -- give up? -- "We'll talk when I return from the hunt."  

 

But anyway....

 

Tywin didn't go to war when Cat arrested Tyrion.  Tywin sent the Mountain, bearing no sigyl, to plunder a few Riverlands farms and villages, and drop off the sack of dead fish to be delivered to King's Landing.  At that time, Ned had resigned as Hand and Robert was very much King, and very much in debt to Tywin.  Before this smelly message reached King's Landing, though, Jaime attacked Ned and his men, and took off to Casterly Rock.  Ned awoke back in the Keep, where Robert ordered him to tell Cat to release Tyrion.  No but's: "The Lannisters own half my kingdom."  Robert then went hunting, leaving Ned as Hand to oversee the days' supplicants.  

 

This is when Ned and we learned of the Mountain's foray into the Riverlands.  Ned reacted far more aggressively than Tywin could have imagined that Robert would.  Ned stripped the Mountain of his knighthood, ordered him brought to justice, and also, ordered Tywin to come to King's Landing to answer for his actions, or be branded an enemy of the state.  

 

This is when Tywin readies for war.  We meet him in the first scene that follows the crowning of Vicerys (after a week's interlude, for us).  Jaime arrives at his camp, and Tywin immediately tells him that attacking Ned was foolish.  (And leaving him alive once the harm was done, more foolish yet.)  Tywin sends Jaime with half his forces to attack the Riverlands.  Jaime expresses surprise that Tywin cares so much for Tyrion, and Tywin sets us all straight.  He doesn't give Jaime the pleasure of feeling indignant, by castigating Tyrion (much: he just calls him, "the smallest of us"). Tywin has a stag to skin and his point is this: "Every day they hold one of our own, allows the other Houses to know they need not fear us."  

 

So, two thoughts.  (1) Tywin readied for war only after Ned ordered him to King's Landing.  Before that, he had gone with his own version of the "proportionate response" route with the Mountain's raid.  I imagine that Tywin, knowing Robert, expected that would do the trick.  (2)  Joffrey's murder was not the same tavern-song-inspiring giggle for the other Houses that the arrest of Tywin's half-man son, by Ned Stark's wife,  threatened to be.  King Joffrey's death had weight; it was greeted solemnly even by the Lannisters' enemies.  And with the mild-mannered, younger Tommen's instant succession -- and Tywin's serving as his Hand and as the remorseless judge at his own son's trial -- Tywin's power was confirmed.  Tywin, anyway, looked more impregnable than ever.

 

Tyrion was right, I think. If Tywin cared about the Lannister name first of all, he could have arrested and convicted anyone as Joffrey's murderer.  Particularly as he knows that in fact, one Lannister did not kill another.  But Tywin seems to have cared more about resuming business as usual, and getting Tyrion forever out of his sight, one way or another.  In the words of Crash Davis, to Nuke Laloosh:  "He's just your father, man.  He's as full of shit as anybody."

[gingerella]

Pallas, I think at the end of the day, Tywin wants to be King, period, end of story. And since there is really no legit way for that to happen, the next best thing is for him to be the Hand to a King that is in name only...enter Tommen, boy King with a mild mannered personality, and who takes direction from his Grandfather Tywin without asking questions or batting a lash. All hail the King...uh, and would that be Tommen or Tywin?

Edited May 21, 2014 by gingerella

[stillshimpy]

Ned awoke back in the Keep, where Robert ordered him to tell Cat to release Tyrion.  No but's: "The Lannisters own half my kingdom."  Robert then went hunting, leaving Ned as Hand to oversee the days' supplicants.

 

After slugging Cersei in the face, Pallas and giving Ned back the Hand pin.  So in front of the actual Lannister party, Robert definitively sided with Ned. Then he let Ned know that this was a no-go -- after pissing off his purse-string-holding wife for all eternity ...some more...  --  so yes, it was not Robert's plan that the Kingdom go to war, but he was letting Ned know what side he would ultimately have to side with because they owned half the Kingdom.  

 

I amend my "They went to War to get Tyrion back" to "They committed a clear act of War, using the world's most recognizable warrior known to be in the service of the Lannisters and threw down a fish-scented gauntlet."  Dude, they burned children alive and the guy doing it is the only person people who have never even met him can pick out of a lineup as The Mountain.  

 

I don't know about you, but I actually didn't need anyone bleating "Gregor" for me to get "Ah fuck! Cersei brought in the goddamn Mountain!!!" and this is despite another casting change.  

 

By the time they got Tyrion back Robb Stark had gone batshit vengeance trying to get his family back and the war was on, but Ned Stark barely had time to rise from his Crown protected bed, to listen to Python-Player-supplicants talking about some infamous pigshit shenanigans.  So they certainly neither toiled nor spun before daycare got decidedly unsafe in the Riverlands. 

 

So I'm sorry, but you have not persuaded me that the Lannisters opening move was to do anything other than start a war.  If they'd sent Everyman Assassin maybe I'd buy it, but they sent the damned Mountain.   It's sort of like how Frey and Bolton will get "the credit" for killing Robb Stark, but anyone who was there will talk about how the Rains of Castamere played him into the next world.  Everyone will know that was Tywin Lannister.  Just as everyone all the way to Bravos knows that Tywin Lannister is the real power behind the throne.  Tywin knows this also.  Tywin intends for this to be known. 

 

And that's why there is no way on the Westeros-version-of-Earth that Tywin Lannister views Joffrey's poisoning as "just the cost of doing business" because having that song played as Robb Stark's heavenly choir was not a coincidence.  Telling Tyrion that he, Tywin, had not in fact put the most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms to bed without his supper, outwardly acknowledges that.  

 

Tywin knows he is viewed as the crown.  Tywin knows that any move against his family is actually a move against him.  So again, no way, no how is he just like "eh, what are ya gonna do?  Next!"  about someone killing the King he knows was a Lannister King, unless he knows what happened, or has a separate plan (,<--- important part) to deal with the person really, really responsible and that plan almost certainly involves the Rains of Castamere being plucked out on the tightly strung guts of the perpetrator, for at least fifty gossips to hear as that person suffers untold misery.  

 

Unless, that is, Tywin knows who did it and sort of agrees, "Yes, that had to happen."  even if he didn't have an actual hand in the asinine affair of the necklace. 

 

ETA: One more thing, whereas Tywin may in fact be a little bit like everyone's dad, in that he sports the expect genitals (as far as we know and I'm willing to let that one remain a supposition), he had Robb Stark brutally murdered, Robb Stark's wife made into a colander and Catelyn Stark's throat cut the bone only after she saw her world completely destroyed (again, some more).  

 

My dad was more full of shit than that.  If yours wasn't, don't forget Father's Day, I beg of thee.  Also?  Don't attend any weddings in case you do. 

Edited May 21, 2014 by stillshimpy

[AlphaLine]

I love how everyone keeps saying that Jon Snow will be the next Lord Commander. Yes it's possible, I just don't see how.

 

The brothers choose their LC. Jon doesn't have any following at all in the Night's watch except for a very small inner circle. I mean how many times have we seen this now, Jon is standing before the table, Alister tells him to suck it and everyone laughs in the background. He's still very much the whiny emo teenager from season 1. And the whole wildling sex scandal must have hit his electoral chances pretty badly.

 

It seems like they are showing Alister to be this overbearing smug prick who is always wrong whereas Jon is right. Except, well,... not.

Alistair is correct on every single instance. So what was the point of going to Craster's. Well, they lost 5 brothers, and gained, well, nothing. The wildlings were going to attack, and now.. they are still going to attack. And I bet they already know how many men are there at Castle Black anyway.

 

Of course the REAL reason for going to Crasters was to rescue Bran ( whom he didn't end up meeting, so FAIL ), then win a 'boss fight' against Gin-Alley 'The legend' Karl ( who is admittedly one of the more memorable villains in the show. Unlike say the champion of Mereen, whose only purpose was to get slaughtered by Dario in 2 seconds ). Which he was also not able to do, despite having a Valeryan sword, so again, FAIL.

 

And this episode, we have Jon wanting to seal the gate shut. Do that, and the wildlings will find some other way to get around anyway, because they've been doing so since season 1. Not to mention, you already have hundreds of wildlings south of the wall? What are you going to do about that? Also, did they get around to sealing that huge hole in the wall that Sam conveniently found last season. Oh it's supposed to be 'secret' but come on the thing's huge. You could easily find it just by walking around the wall. If you want to seal something- seal that first.

 

( Of course it is possible that the hole in the wall is just a plot hole, rather than a regular hole. It allows Sam & co / Bran & co to pass through without climbing over the wall, but others can't use it, because it's a plot hole. )

 

And that's my conclusion on the Jon Snow storyline. If he manages to become LC anyway it'll be mostly due to plot rather than actual character development. I guess the entire senior staff of the NW will die in the wildling attack, but then Jon will beat the wildlings anyway, because plot. ( Most likely he'll come to some terms with Mance Rayder and agree to fight the white walkers together. Or something like that ). It just annoys me when people keep saying that Jon is a very important character like Tyrion and Dany, it's just not comparable. Tyrion is awesome, Dany is badass . Jon Snow knows nothing.

[stillshimpy]

By the way, reading that over, I think it actually relies on knowing that Pallas and I have been giving each other grief over theories since the second episode.  I suspect that our respective fathers are both in the hereafter , likely doing some verbose version of "Oh c'mon...." about subjects ranging from automotive to zoological. Mine departed fairly early in my life, but presumably did not die to escape my argumentative ass, despite all evidence to the contrary, after all -- I come by this trait honestly enough.  

 

But just to be clear, "Oh look, Pallas and shimp are coming to word blows, it must be ...a day of any week you can name."  

 

So as always, that is always said, tongue firmly in cheek and with tremendous respect for the person to whom I am saying a verbose version of "Oh c'mon..." to.  

 

I suspect we will know which one of us is standing hip deep in the poo come the end of the season, Pallas.  Likely both of us, trading manure stories, but I do think that the plot element that has yet to unfold is what Tywin plans to do to the person/people who really killed Joffrey, or if it was the bargain that he struck already.  

Edited May 21, 2014 by stillshimpy

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

RadiantAerynSun: But if they change the actor, I am not in favor of any Hound Into Faceless Man scenario. The Hound has become one of my favorite characters this season, and a good part of that is because of the work the actor has been putting in.

 

Oh i agree with you there, I was more meaning at the very end of the show. Or at least the end of his story in it. It would be his way of riding off into the sunset.

 

 

Whitestumbler, I agreed whole-heartedly except for Gendry. Sure I want the young chap to be okay, but I don't really like the actor or most of the scenes he's in (except for his first scene in Season 3 where he picks on Arya for not naming Tywin, Joffrey, etc for the 3 names)

 

I actually like Gendry's actor just fine. Gendry's not a man of many words, or very educated, but he is a hard worker, and thought being a hard worker would ensure he would do well in the future. Instead all these highborn folks came along and mucked up his simple life as a blacksmith. I think the actor does a good job of portraying the character who is a bit baffled at how his life took such a turn...

 

I assumed Jon Snow could potentially be voted LC just because, well, seemed like Janos Slynt was worried he had popular support, which I took as an indication that he did. They showed him demonstrating training to his brothers in one of the early eps this season. Certainly the men who volunteered to go with him to Craster's were at least somewhat on his side. I think a lot of brothers won't stand up IN FRONT OF Thorne to contradict him (I got the feeling the Head Builder wanted to agree with Jon, but was getting the evil eye from Thorne) but if they vote by secret ballot, who is going to vote for that pompous asshole? (I am referring to Thorne! LOL)

[Anothermi]

I don't know about you, but I actually didn't need anyone bleating "Gregor" for me to get "Ah fuck! Cersei brought in the goddamn Mountain!!!" and this is despite another casting change. - shimpy

 

The Mountain has been more of a faceless character (literally, not magically) for me, so I didn't notice the change.  However, The Mountain of Season 1 really did the trick re: "striking terror to my heart" and I perceived him as an incredibly malevolent force.  Once they started showing his face and allowing him to talk all that evaporated - starting in Season 2.  Both subsequent actors just didn't live up to The Mountain I had built up in my mind.  In fact, this latest one makes me think of Ferdinand: the bull who just wanted to sit in his field and smell the flowers!!? Big and stupid, but not malevolent, regardless of the butchery on display in his scene.  

 

It surprises me that despite the rapid humanizing of The Hound (and I am growing fond of the old cur), I find him more frightening than The Mountain at this point.  Too Bad, because the concept of The Mountain was so strong in Season 1 and made a real impact on me. 

 

Edited for spelling and clarity.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Anothermi

[stillshimpy]

In fact, this latest one makes me think of Ferdinand: the bull who just wanted to sit in his field and smell the flowers!!? Big and stupid, but not malevolent, regardless of the butchery on display in his scene.

 

That is not only hilarious, it's perfect.  Yeah, my husband said he looked like a cartoon gladiator.  

 

The 2nd Mountain, just wasn't as big as he needed to be, among other things.  He just looked surly and unkempt vs. terrifying and volatile. 

 

This one looked a little bit like a well-oiled escapee from the original Spartacus movie.  Or like Cecil B. Demille ought to be imperiling equines somewhere nearby.  

[abelard]

It surprises me that despite the rapid humanizing of The Hound (and I am growing fond of the old cur),

 

Is The Hound on the Redemption Train?  How big is that thing?!?!  Jeepers, they somehow managed to squeeze Jaime Lannister's incestuous child-crippling a** onto that train!!!  And have they got The Hound on it too, now?!  Who else is coming aboard?  Tywin "If You Don't Know Who's Really King, You're Not Paying Attention" Lannister?!  Ramsay "I like your toys!" Snow?!  LITTLEFINGER?!!?!!

Edited May 21, 2014 by abelard

[WhiteStumbler]

Is The Hound on the Redemption Train? How big is that thing?!?!

Yup. I have always thought of The Hound as light grey at worst. He saved Sansa's life at least two times, seemed disgusted by the beating she received from Joffrey (via Ser Meryn), saved Loras' life, and now saved Arya at The Red Wedding, killed Poliver's men for her, and gave her a Murder Pony. Choo choo!

So he killed Micah and threatened Bronn. What else is on the EVIL side of the ledger?

[stillshimpy]

What else is on the EVIL side of the ledger?

 

Everything else he's done outside of the five or so good acts in his entire life.  I think it's tempting to think of The Hound a a grey character, he's entertaining, but long before he ever saved Sansa he was menacing her on the King's Road about Payne's tongue, etc.  When she tried to thank him, he informed her that he liked killing people and that all men were bad, even her father.  

 

Don't get me wrong, it's swell that he saved Sansa from a group of peasants trying to rape her.  It's equally nice that he's the traveling buddy of my favorite Assassin: Child Division , but I don't think he's on any redemption train.  For starters, Jaime isn't really on one either.  He sent Brienne off to be the person he can't really decide to be and raped his sister.  His idea of a grand sacrifice?  He'll leave the Kingsguard after three -- count 'em, three -- Kings have died under his tenure (but in fairness, only one by his hand and I don't blame him for that),get married and attempt to be something other than the sister-schtupping Oath-breaking, would-be child murderer (no, I do not give him a pass because Bran lived, that was not his intent and also, if it was just a case of poor impulse control, then he really and truly sucks).  

 

So I don't think there are any redemption roads, biway, highways, ferries or trains.  I think the only point of the story is that no person is wholly defined by either the best thing they ever did or the worst.  That all men (universal, not gender-specific ) are a combination and accumulation of all of their acts.  Not so that no one qualifies as Evil , but rather that no one truly qualifies as good.  That's yet another reason I hope to God the author had the wisdom to just let Jon Snow be Ned Stark's bastard son, so that he, like the rest of us, will have strayed from his own much touted code-of-honor. 

 

When it comes to The Hound, all the good acts, all the small moments of mercy those are what stand against his personal code, not for them.   He told Sansa what his personal code was and whereas every now and then he has a moment of what might pass for empathy, decency or kindness, he is still the man who took his own pain, suffering and scarring experience to justify his own monstrous acts.  

 

He's not evil incarnate , but if that is what passes for good or "light grey" in that world, they must be in dire need of something resembling human decency to accept that wooden nickel as currency. 

Edited May 22, 2014 by stillshimpy

[MrMicrophone]

shimp,

I put "menacing Sansa" down as part of the whole "break her illusions before she REALLY gets hurt" shtick that Cersei also subscribes to.

Both the Hound and Cersei believe they're truly helping the poor chit, by shattering her childish beliefs.

 

I think the Hound and Jaime are on the redemption train, but that they may step off it at any minute. This show likes everyone to be gray,

even Bolton's Bastard and Joffrey (who are as near to black as they can get, save Gregor).

[stillshimpy]

MrMicrophone: Both the Hound and Cersei believe they're truly helping the poor chit, by shattering her childish beliefs.

 

Well, if The Hound or Cersei were even marginally different people, I might actually believe that.  Instead they are (respectively) a scarred-giant-man who went out of his way to tell Sansa that her murdered father was "a bad man".  It seemed to me mainly because he was ticked off that she was thanking him for an act she perceived as containing compassion.  So he punished her for daring to think well of him, probably as a self-protective device, but seeing as she was little better than a traumatized child, again he should have had some empathy. 

 

Cersei sat there practically yukking it up as her charming children talked about having Robb Stark's head.  There are actually other instances, there was no good to be had out of letting Sansa know that Payne was there to slaughter them all to keep them from being pillaged, plundered, defiled (what have you, the Seven Kingdoms, ladies and gentlemen ) other than to watch her squirm. 

 

What you see as either attempting to take Sansa to the school of hard knocks and get her to wise up, I just see as Cersei (In particular, I do think the Hound had a different motive) delighting in pulling the wings off of insects.  It was not an act of trying to break Sansa's rose-colored glasses before she got hurt.  She'd been hurt aplenty by then, it was an attempt to remove the tiny bit of succor remaining to her in a world that was constantly hurting her anyway.  Seemingly as an act of self-loathing on Cersei's part, and a sign of the contempt with which she views her former self.  That may also be what the Hound was engaging in also. 

 

I think it pissed them both off that Sansa still believed in anything good after all that had already happened to her.  But I don't think there was any good intent behind either of their words to her and I really don't think that either was in any way trying to help her.  They just wanted to see her idealism die because it justified the death of their own, lo those many years ago if they could also kill hers. 

Edited May 22, 2014 by stillshimpy

[90PercentGravity]

I think The Hound grew up being seen as a monster and it is extremely difficult to not turn into the thing that everyone around you tells you you are.

[Pontoon]

Also, if memory serves, The Hound didn't quite tell Sansa that Ned was "a bad man"... just that he was "a killer" (like just about every other male in that society, including Sansa's future hypothetical sons.) I thought it was a caring, almost lovely moment in a way (although of course very bleak and probably terrifying for poor Sansa.)

[WhiteStumbler]

The Hound:

Terrifying, yes. A brutal fighter. A hard man in a hard world. He is a highly trained, efficient killing machine, of course he is going to say that "killing is the sweetest thing there is", if only to convince himself. Actually, we have seen him kill 1 innocent person and saved Sansa and Arya at least four times. The Hound saved Sansa from attacking Joffrey immediately after Ned's execution (1), again during the Cow Pie Riot (2), and offered to take her North back to Winterfell. He saved Arya at The Red Wedding (3), after the RW when the Frey soldiers were about to attack her for killing one of their own (4), and killed most of Polliver's henchmen, allowing Arya to kill Polliver. Who has The Hound killed who could be considered innocent? Micah (1), and I lay that squarely on Joffrey.  He named Ned, and Robb, and Sansa's hypothetical husband and son "killers" because it was true. Of all the crimes that the Bw/oB accused him of, none of them were true. Arya had to step forward and accuse him of the killing of Micah. Everything else was guilt by association for being Clegane. Most interesting to me, where did he try to take Arya right from the start? To Robb, at The Twins. The Lannisters would probably have paid more for Arya, even to a man who recently quit the service of the king. What else has he done? Stole a provisions cart to travel to The Twins, stole some silver from a farmer, and helped ease the suffering of a dying man. (ETA: stillshimpy - what "monstrous acts"?)

 

He never took a knighthood, though I am sure that Joffrey (or someone else) would have knighted him if asked. Why? Did he see the hypocrisy of "good knights", even knights of the Kingsguard, beating helpless women and decide that there was no honor in being called "Ser"? His brother, the brutal rapist, torturer, and wholesale butcher The Mountain, is a knight. Not much honor there.

 

I think there are parallels to be made between the ronin of feudal Japan and The Hound. He was essentially Joffrey's bodyguard, as were many ronin (yojimbo), and he talks of becoming a sellsword in the Second Sons, and many ronin became mercenary soldiers. He is now un-moored from the bonds between vassal and servant. He has lost the favor of his master, and now must find a way to make a living off of his sword, but he still has a code. It is a hard code, but look where he lives. The Hound is a realist (and hungry for chicken).

 

I got a lot of love for The Hound the last two seasons, and he was a fav 2nd Tier character before that. I sooooo want him to jump the Narrow Sea and open up some of that part of the world to us. I loved the spec of Arya giving The Hound her coin and he becomes a Faceless Man, but I think that coin might be Arya's destiny.

Edited May 22, 2014 by WhiteStumbler

[stillshimpy]

monstrous acts

 

Dude, he was in the service of the Lannisters and part of the rebellion.  What do you think he did before we ever met him?  We met him as the guy sent to run down children.  There's a reason he was chosen for that job.  Although we met him at a certain point, he didn't start to exist within the story at the moment we met him.  He may not have been in the company of the men slaughtering children and splitting former would-be-queens in two, but he hung out with them for ages, suggesting that he did a lot of the same damned things.  

 

I don't think he was assigned to be the crowned prince's guard dog because he was known to good at fetch.  Besides that, that's exactly what he told Sansa, that he likes killing people.  Likes it.  Whee.  

 

 

 

"killing is the sweetest thing there is", if only to convince himself.

 

Here's what I think, just like with Littelfinger "Don't trust anyone, not even me" , it is best to believe people when they tell you who they are. 

 

here did he try to take Arya right from the start? To Robb, at The Twins. The Lannisters would probably have paid more for Arya, even to a man who recently quit the service of the king.

 

He deserted the service of the King during a siege, there's no going back to King's Landing after that.  Even if he'd brought them Robb Stark's head, they likely would have said "Thanks, for that helpful act, we will spare you the boiling in oil and pickling of your intestines before you die and merely cut off your head.  Okay, okay, maybe a few bits and sundries first, but mostly? A swift death.  Kind of.  It will involve flame."  

 

I mean, we can spin this however we like, but Joffrey....forgiving?  Unless the Hound has a powerful alliance to offer, he's a dead man. Hell, the Mountain hadn't even gotten around to deserting and Tywin was willing to offer him up to Oberyn.  What do you think they'd do to the runaway brother, even if he brought Arya back?  There wouldn't be any ransom, they'd just frame him to make it look like he abducted her in the first place. 

Edited May 22, 2014 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

Besides that, that's exactly what he told Sansa, that he likes killing people.  Likes it.  Whee.  

 

Here's what I think, just like with Littelfinger "Don't trust anyone, not even me" , it is best to believe people when they tell you who they are. 

OK, but there is a huge in-world difference between A) killing an opposing soldier or a knight in a tournament vs. B) killing an innocent civilian. I honestly and truly believe that he was referring to A), not B).

 

As for what he did in Robert's Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion, the Lannisters only were part of RR at the very end, right? The Mountain is accused of war crimes at the sack of KL, not The Hound. Was he even there? Unknown. He is younger than The Mountain, so we don't even know if he was part of the Lannister forces at the time. There has been no in-world mention of his role in the Greyjoy Rebellion that I can recall. My point is that if he had committed "monstrous acts" that we, the viewers, don't know about because they occurred prior to S1Ep1, it is reasonable to expect that the Bw/oB would have heard of them. Yet all of the accusations the Brotherhood leveled at The Hound concerned Gregor Clegane, not Sandor.

 

"Do you take me for my brother? Is being born Clegane a crime? I never touched the Targaryen babes; never saw them, never smelled them, never heard them... bawling. You want to cut my throat? Then get on with it! But don't call me murderer, and pretend that you're not."

 

He did say to Bronn at the start of Blackwater that "there's women in the ground; I put some of them there myself", but we don't know the circumstances.

 

Ooooh, this is fun! Thanks for the challenge, stillshimpy! You made me really dig down and examine why I like The Hound (besides his love of chicken) and think he is a pale gray character at worst. Seven Hells, I have practically convinced myself that he is the hero of the series! No Hound = no Sansa, no Arya, no Loras!

[Glory]

Can someone remind me of the Hound and the Mountain's house ties to the Lannister house? Why are they so entwined with the Lannister's? Has that been mentioned? 

[stillshimpy]

Ooooh, this is fun! Thanks for the challenge, stillshimpy! You made me really dig down and examine why I like The Hound

 

Ha! You're welcome, WhiteStumbler. any time my naturally assertive and argumentative butt can help you out?  I will happy to do so.  He did admit he was a murder in the passage you quote though, WhiteStumbler

 

You want to cut my throat? Then get on with it! But don't call me murderer, and pretend that you're not"

 

They're all guilty of the same crimes, apparently.  I don't have any trouble believing that of people who called Gendry and brother and then sold him.  

 

I don't extend any benefit of the doubt to The Hound, except for several things: I don't think he's  rapist.  Sounds like it should be damning with way faint praise, but in this world, it's something.  I doubt he kills children, unless he is told to (Micah was the same age as Arya) and I do think people are still responsible for their heinous, monstrous, terrible crimes against humanity (I can keep pouring it on if it will help, WS ;-) ) even if they were only following orders.  

 

When the Hound had an order he really didn't like, he took the hell off.  It just it was uncomfortably imperiling his own skin that made him cross that threshold, which I find to be...human, but certainly not a good excuse for things he's done.  I don't care that he was ordered to kill Micah.  He could have let him go.  He chose not to.  

 

The man is a monster, as far as I'm concerned.  Just not entirely a monster, as witnessed by his actions with Arya.  I don't like him.  Although I am grateful to the character for his actions towards both Arya and Sansa, at least some of them.  

Edited May 22, 2014 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

Although I am grateful to the character for his actions towards both Arya and Sansa, at least some of them.  

And there our Venn diagrams will overlap! Iiiiiimmanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable!

 

So to dig around on this Hound vs. Bw/oB stuff I went and re-watched the scene from the cave on YouTube. If anyone wants to search for "Game of Thrones (S03E04) - Beric Dondarrion is Introduced". As always avoid comments. It truly is just an amazing piece of TV. "And you're still swineherds, and tanners, and masons. You think carrying a crooked spear makes you a soldier?"

 

And then "Ned Stark is dead! King Robert is dead! My brother's alive." *spits* "You're fighting for ghosts".

[MrMicrophone]

Glory,

I think, and this is speculation, that House Clegane has sworn allegiance to the Lannisters, just as the Boltons and the Karstarks have sworn to House Stark.

[WhiteStumbler]

OMG there is a House Clegane?!? I thought it was just the two brothers. Are there more of these freakishly large killers wandering about?

[MrMicrophone]

white,

I didn't get the impression either of them were married, so if anyone's still on this coil, it might be a father or an uncle.

... and I think it's a house. Do non-house people get last names? Even Littlefinger has a house!

[Anothermi]

OMG there is a House Clegane?!? I thought it was just the two brothers. Are there more of these freakishly large killers wandering about?

Didn't the Hound just tell us that his Father told the world a lie - that the Hound's bedding caught fire - to explain his burned face and protect Gregor? There HAD to be a House. However, I think they are IT.  The Killer and the  "killer".  One was chaotic and devastating (my original-recipe Mountain) and one was reliable and obedient (the Hound).  That is their story to this point.  

 

The Hound is an orphan.  Abandoned by both his brother and his father.  The Other is Ser Clegane! Heir to the Clegane legacy! I think they are the last of their Kind and the Hound - as the younger - sees the changing times sooner than his Brother - the beneficiary of the former "good Clagane Times".

[DemosthenesKey]

I thought Littlefinger had a house - he's got that little pin he always has, I thought it was a sigil.

[WhiteStumbler]

OK, so I am slow sometimes. Clegane is a House. From the cave scene (with a spelling assist from the Character Guide)...

 

The Hound: I wasn't at the Mummer's Fort. Dump your dead children at some other door!

Thoros: House Clegane was built upon dead children! I saw them lay Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys before the Iron Throne.

The Hound: Do you take me for my brother? Is being born Clegane a crime?

Bw/oB Archer: Murder is a crime!

The Hound: I never touched the Targaryen babes; never saw them, never smelled them, never heard them... bawling. You want to cut my throat? Then get on with it! But don't call me murderer, and pretend that you're not.

 

Another character that The Hound saves? Ser Dontos. As Joffrey is having Dontos drowned in wine, Sansa tells Joffrey that it is bad luck to kill someone on your name day. Joffrey sputters "What kind of stupid peasant's superstition...?" and The Hound chimes in with "The girl is right. What a man sows on his name day he reaps all year." Hero Hound! ;-)

 

House Baylish, I think, is a thing. Littlefinger created the sigil. From S2Ep1:

Cersei: A mockingbird. You created your own sigil, didn't you?

Littlefinger: Yes.

C: Appropriate... for a self-made man with so many songs to sing.

LF: I'm glad you like it. Some people are fortunate enough to be born into the right family. Others have to find their own way.

C: I heard a song once about a boy of modest means who found his way into the home of a very prominent family. He loved the eldest daughter. Sadly, she had eyes for another.

[stillshimpy]

and The Hound chimes in with "The girl is right. What a man sows on his name day he reaps all year." Hero Hound! ;-)

 

Snerk.  Methinks you are generous indeed with your standards for heroics, good sir.  If speaking meets them, wow, I'm like all the Avengers and the X-Men put together on any given day for that definition of heroism, you would be astounded by my courage, I'm telling you ;-) 

 

Not when I sing though.  Then there is much sadness throughout the land.  

[Pontoon]

Oh, wow, @WhiteStumbler. I hadn't caught that...

 

 

 

The Hound: I wasn't at the Mummer's Fort. Dump your dead children at some other door!
Thoros: House Clegane was built upon dead children! I saw them lay Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys before the Iron Throne.

 

I wonder if that means that prior to Elia and her children being killed by Gregor, the Cleganes were just lowly (if enormous) soldiers in the service of the Lannisters... but that atrocity caused Tywin to raise them up to the level of a House after the Rebellion. If that's the case, no wonder Oberyn doesn't seem to buy Tywin's protestations that he didn't give the order.

 

EDIT: Even Aemon seems to think it was especially enraging/over-the-top, during his scene with Jon in S1. Maybe there was even a quid pro quo between one of the Cleganes and Tywin... we'll take on this especially unsavory job for you, but only if you raise us up to nobility. I could see Tywin paying his debt in that way... 

Edited May 22, 2014 by Pontoon